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antiemptyv
June 28th, 2007, 08:43 AM
could they not just give organizations the money? http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/

randomnote1
June 28th, 2007, 08:49 AM
That would just make sense.

But we're talking about Microsoft.

Kingsley
June 28th, 2007, 08:54 AM
They could just give the money but why not get more people to use their messenger at the time? :P

moljac024
June 28th, 2007, 08:57 AM
Well it is a noble cause, nonetheless....

antiemptyv
June 28th, 2007, 08:59 AM
and if people don't use it, it's kind of like microsoft can say, "well, it isn't our fault. we would have given out money, but you--the public--didn't use our instant messenger."

i mean, it's not like a crap load of people aren't going to eat this initiative up... but still.

karellen
June 28th, 2007, 09:31 AM
I happen to like windows live messenger...:D, it's kind of slick...
too bad all my folks are using yahoo messenger

inova
June 28th, 2007, 09:37 AM
Too bad if your friends using YM

MSN is better however I think you can add YM to MSN and vice versa

karellen
June 28th, 2007, 10:12 AM
Too bad if your friends using YM

MSN is better however I think you can add YM to MSN and vice versa

I know, I suppose I just got used to YM...

daynah
June 28th, 2007, 01:14 PM
could they not just give organizations the money? http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Home/

That made me a litte bit queesy. Not the MSN thing that is. The Gates have tons of money. They ARE just throwing tons of it at the needy. Bill Gates did not get that money from being a tard, he's quite a savvy business man and he understands that you can't throw away all the charity money in one go, or you wont have stuff to give away in the future. Most certainty, the money he's sectioned away for charity and hasn't given away yet is in some high interest account or even the stocks so he can have MORE money for the poor.

This MSN thing is getting third parties to pay for the poor some, halping the Gates keep the charity money making more money for longer.

There are many different ways you can give to the poor. Some are not as charitabse as others. JUST doing the MSN project would not be as charitable as JUST throwing gobs of money at them. But the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation (http://www.gatesfoundation.org/default.htm) is doing a LOT.

I personally hope that one day I make gobs of money so that I can give it away to the poor, even if people on the internet, for whatever reason, try to put me down for it.

Let's whine about Bill Gates for the awful things he actually did. :rolleyes:

Tomosaur
June 28th, 2007, 01:38 PM
Do you actually have to use their messenger? The instructions say you only have to put a text code in your display name. Many of us here use the MSN protocol at least, I see no reason why we too shouldn't help MS with their little endeavour :)

steven8
June 28th, 2007, 01:39 PM
I really like this one from the front page of the Bill and Melina Gates Foundation page:


Bill Gates Prompts Grads

In his commencement address at Harvard University, Gates called on graduates to turn caring into action and use “creative capitalism” to solve the world’s worst inequities.

“creative capitalism” - That's such an interesting spin of phrase.

dca
June 28th, 2007, 01:45 PM
Creative Capitalism?

Is that anything like: military intelligence

or more along the lines of: thunderous silence

...I dunno'...

daynah
June 28th, 2007, 01:47 PM
Bill and Melinda are giving to the needy.

What the heck? Why is everyone trying to cast a bad light on this? Is this jealousy? Or is this just an inability to see that people can do good things and bad things? That a person him/hersefl is not good or bad, but does good or bad and in varying quantities of BOTH.

We all do bad stuff and we all do good stuff. The bad stuff we're doing here is staying grumbly grumbly over Bill hurting technological development and not looking at the fact that now he's trying to turn that from personal gain into something that helps a wide variety of people.

netyire
June 28th, 2007, 01:53 PM
Thats great if people are really being helped by someone chatting with a friends and family. Just how much is really given away? 0.000002 cents per messege isn't really impressive right? (Thats just a random number :D)

Anyway, regardless of which company is doing it, I think this is a good thing.

@trophy
June 28th, 2007, 02:06 PM
Bill and Melinda are giving to the needy.

What the heck? Why is everyone trying to cast a bad light on this? Is this jealousy? Or is this just an inability to see that people can do good things and bad things? That a person him/hersefl is not good or bad, but does good or bad and in varying quantities of BOTH.

We all do bad stuff and we all do good stuff. The bad stuff we're doing here is staying grumbly grumbly over Bill hurting technological development and not looking at the fact that now he's trying to turn that from personal gain into something that helps a wide variety of people.

I'm with you there. It's like my friends who can't stand Bono... they're like "He's only doing all of this for the publicity." To which my answer almost has to be "So what if he is?" Any excuse to do a good thing, you know?

starcraft.man
June 28th, 2007, 02:49 PM
First off, as to the topic. I don't like the way thats presented. The site/campaign just doesn't feel right to me, it's like implying that if a person doesn't use the MSN Live messenger to support a cause that he's a selfish SOB. Secondly, I don't see why this should be the way you give to charity, I don't know how much money it is for how many IMs (I'm sure its not near as much as you think) but there certainly are many other ways to give. Blood donations, volunteering, working at shelters, food banks and other things. You don't have to go that far from home to find people in need of help... we don't seem to treat those less fortunate anywhere in the world very well.


Bill and Melinda are giving to the needy.

What the heck? Why is everyone trying to cast a bad light on this? Is this jealousy? Or is this just an inability to see that people can do good things and bad things? That a person him/hersefl is not good or bad, but does good or bad and in varying quantities of BOTH.

We all do bad stuff and we all do good stuff. The bad stuff we're doing here is staying grumbly grumbly over Bill hurting technological development and not looking at the fact that now he's trying to turn that from personal gain into something that helps a wide variety of people.

You know, maybe I'm a cynical curmudgeon but Bill isn't the first Millionaire/Billionaire to give gobs and gobs of cash out to charities. He probably won't be the last either given our (as a world population) rather lax attitude in adopting and making actual change come about in the world. I equally haven't seen that much progress made in poor and underdeveloped countries with all the other rich folk who went out and gave their money away. Maybe the bottom line is that money alone thrown at all the world's causes doesn't stop conflicts, poverty disease and other things, people actually have to follow through and do.

While I will give you that giving to charity is a good act, and giving more like Millions/Billions is even better than what the average person can do, maybe there is a deeper problem that lies in the system we live in. Why for instance do less than a fraction of a single percent of the world's population hold control over Billions and even Trillions of the worlds Assets? Why do they get to decide how that cash/assets are invested, and if they do get to, why without anyone else's input? Bill Gates has been making money for ages, hand over fist, and both his own wealth and company have enormous amounts of money disposable. Why has he all of a sudden decided to become a philanthropist in his latter part of life? Would not have been much nicer had he actually donated say 25% (or any number you think right, maybe it sounds crazy but why not?) of his entire companies profits yearly to worthy causes? Why not after making those deals with LInux companies, did he not in the spirit of Linux/Community donate all the money they paid MS for licensing and other things to charity of some sort?

All good questions, you think about them... meanwhile, I'll just remain somewhat cynical about Bill's efforts.

Oh and @trophy, I can't stand Bono either, I just can't.

antiemptyv
June 28th, 2007, 02:58 PM
Bill Gates did not get that money from being a tard, he's quite a savvy business man and he understands that you can't throw away all the charity money in one go, or you wont have stuff to give away in the future. Most certainty, the money he's sectioned away for charity and hasn't given away yet is in some high interest account or even the stocks so he can have MORE money for the poor.

This MSN thing is getting third parties to pay for the poor some, halping the Gates keep the charity money making more money for longer.

people would also be willing to invest more in a person/company who just gives the money away, too, no? i would. the use-my-product-and-i'll-give-some-of-the-money-to-charities approach just seems a little sly. it's certainly good that the money is being donated, don't get me wrong, but, if you cared and wanted to donate it, it seems like you'd just do it.

@trophy
June 28th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Well, just for the record... I like Bono. He's been going about his business in a very smart way, a way which will almost certainly cause actual change in Africa! And, since it bears on this conversation, I think it's telling that Gates was willing to sign up to do the financial organization of Bono's work, which is something Gates has never been willing to do with any other charity, though he's been asked many times before.
If what you're looking for is petitioning of governments to forgive debts, increased technological and economic aid, more education, and something resembling an actual response to the AIDS crisis, Bono isn't the guy to hate. He's out there doing all of that. I personally think his motivation is good as well, but even if it isn't, he's unique in some of his strategies towards the goal of improving quality of life in Africa.

brian j
June 28th, 2007, 03:09 PM
He also likes to destroy small businesses, Force you to tow the line, Threatens you with patent infringement, ( And by the way: Actually wants Total World Dominance where microsoft is the only os to buy).. Don't believe it?.... Then do some Googling!
Get Real!

wh0rd
June 28th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Creative Capitalism != Solution to inequities

That is such an oxymoron. Todays problems are caused by distribution of resources under Capitalism. Licensing and Patenting also add to those inequalities, whether it's software from Microsoft or Biological patents like AIDs medicine or food patents from Monsanto. I always found that charity is only patching the issues at hand. What we need are alternatives that focus on the roots of the problem.

@trophy
June 28th, 2007, 03:25 PM
But capitalism, like everything else, is a tool that can be used for good or for evil.

An example is a PBS special that aired a while back called "The New Heroes". The businesses featured practiced a new brand of capitalism... one that includes the idea of "enough".

One example was a doctor who performed cataract surgeries in India, but couldn't afford to keep giving the surgeries away because the artificial lenses cost $20,000 a pop. So he did some digging, and ended up finding out that they cost the pharmatech company about a buck each to make. So he got some VC money and started making his own. He still gives away the surgeries to a lot of the poorer people in India, but those who can afford it pay $100 for the surgery, which makes it economically sustainable to keep doing the surgeries.

Another was a pair of guys that invented a foot-operated water pump for use by subsistance farmers in Kenya, where they're long on manpower and short on electricity/gas. Instead of two guys spending 8 hours a day lugging buckets from the river to their crops, one guy can run the pump and the other guy can carry the hose around. Result: they can grow more crops, which for the vast majority of the country is their only source of income. The guys are making a profit. Just not an obscene one. The market could probably bear more than what they're charging for the pump, but they're making "enough."

I wish that idea would take off here in the states.

daynah
June 28th, 2007, 03:39 PM
I'm with you there. It's like my friends who can't stand Bono... they're like "He's only doing all of this for the publicity." To which my answer almost has to be "So what if he is?" Any excuse to do a good thing, you know?

There seems to be a lot of people thinking that all Bill and Melinda are doing is giving away fractions of cents for each IM.

GLOBALLY
The foundation gave The Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization a donation of US$750 million on 25 January 2005.

The foundation gave The Institute for OneWorld Health a donation of nearly US$10 million to support the organization's work on a drug for visceral leishmaniasis (VL).

The Children's Vaccine Program, run by the Program for Appropriate Technology in Health (PATH), received a donation of US$27 million to help vaccinate against Japanese encephalitis on 9 December 2003.

The foundation provided approximately US$30 million for the foundation of the new Department of Global Health at the University of Washington in Seattle. The donation promoted three of the Foundation's target areas: education, Pacific Northwest and global health.

The foundation has donated a grand total of US$287 million to various HIV/AIDS researchers. The money was split between sixteen different research teams across the world, on the condition that they share their findings with one another.

IN THE US (Obviously, someone will donate more in the homeland...)
The Foundation contributed US$30 million to help NewSchools to manage more charter schools, which aim to prepare students in historically underserved areas for college and careers.

Administered by the United Negro College Fund the foundation donated US$1 billion for scholarships to high achieving minority students.

Donated US$210 million in October 2000 to help outstanding graduate students outside of the United Kingdom study at the University of Cambridge. Approximately 100 new students every year are funded.

Donated US$20 million in 1998 to endow a scholarship program at Melinda Gates' alma mater, Duke University. The program provides full scholarships to about 10 members of each undergraduate class and one member in each class in each of the professional schools (Schools of Medicine, Business, Law, Divinity, Environment, and Nursing). The program also pays for a full-time administrator who organizes seminars to bring these scholars together for interdisciplinary discussions as well as the selection process in the Spring.

The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation announced March 22, 2007 a $122 million initiative to send hundreds of the District of Columbia's poorest students to college.[14]

On April 25th, 2007, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation joined forces with the Eli and Edythe Broad Foundation pledging a joint $60 million to create Strong American Schools, a nonprofit project responsible for running ED in 08, an initiative and information campaign aimed at encouraging 2008 presidential contenders to include education in their campaign policies.[15]

Most recently, the foundation gave a $12.2-million grant to the Southeastern Library Network (SOLINET) to assist libraries on the Gulf Coast of Louisiana and Mississippi, which were damaged or destroyed by Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita.



The money used above comes from Bill Gates pocket. The money used fr the i'm initative comes from Microsoft's pocket. Bill Gates is simply being a philanthopist. Microsoft is an organization and thus, by definition, cannot be a philanthopist, and can just advertise itself, and that's what it's doing, but also taking out of it's own business account to charity. It's a business, not a person, that's giving away money.

And that is fantastic! I think it's great that Ubuntu and Windows have something in common - a philanthopist for a figurehead.

airtonix
June 28th, 2007, 03:41 PM
Any one read "The Ragged Trouser Philanthropist"?

i think the basic thing is that this tactic is used to prevent riots or severe backalsh.

so that the upperclass pirates can silenty(without-public-opposition) sign the public electricity trust into their ownership.

ignorance is bliss for the peasants....becuase they need not know the complicated mechanation of life, but they ire at the landlord...

ignorance is bliss for the landlord(when imposed on the peasents..) for he can do as he pleases without fear of backlash from the peasents.


also your proly not mentioning that at each of those places where bill gives money away.....he also makes efforts to put opensource down.

daynah
June 28th, 2007, 03:50 PM
Okay, we're going to relook at "good" and "evil" because apparently my version of it is different than the version of it here.

I do bad things. I have cheated on my homework on occasion. I should hope that a teacher could see me as a person who does charitable things, but also has cheated on her homework. A person who does good and bad just like everyone else. I should hope that that teacher doesn't just look at me and says, "She cheats on her homework, so everything else that Daynah does must be for some alterior motive. She must be cleaning up the local lake to try to get brownie points."

No, I happen to be cleaning up the local lake to... clean up the local lake. And I hope people can see past the cheating to see that I can do good things too. Of course, should I get caught cheating, I should still get a bad grade.

Point is, everyone does bad things. But everyone also does good things. Everyone.

Bill Gates screws Linux over. That's a bad thing. You've done bad things, also. I know a friend who pushed a beggar into the middle of a street. But Bill Gates also goes good things, my friend also does good things, and you, who do bad things, also do good things.

Without even KNOWING YOU, I trust you to be a person who does good things. But you judge Bill Gates on this few action and choose not to see his good ones? Do you want to be judged like this? How horrible and jaded a world when people only see the bad in other people.

frup
June 28th, 2007, 04:21 PM
When every human has open source and knows how to use the source, we will have had a form of "emancipation of the working class by the working class" :D

Creative Capitalism is a ludicrous idea, last I heard they were investing in cigarettes etc, very creative. But if they are really doing it for the right reason, which I find hard to believe, I am very proud of Bill Gates, the guy who was so against less affluent hobbyists.

If they really wanted to help these charities, they would have let any connection to the protocol work (or released a spec on how to make it work :) )

Bed time for me... I'm getting emotional.

@trophy
June 28th, 2007, 04:27 PM
Okay, we're going to relook at "good" and "evil" because apparently my version of it is different than the version of it here.

I do bad things. I have cheated on my homework on occasion. I should hope that a teacher could see me as a person who does charitable things, but also has cheated on her homework. A person who does good and bad just like everyone else. I should hope that that teacher doesn't just look at me and says, "She cheats on her homework, so everything else that Daynah does must be for some alterior motive. She must be cleaning up the local lake to try to get brownie points."

Exactly. And even if you were cleaning the lake to get brownie points, the lake is still clean. The fish don't care why you did it, they're just happy that their home is now easier to live in. The fact that you cheated on your homework is completely irrelevant. If I were explaining you to someone else I might say "She cares a lot about the environment, but don't trust her homework."

The same could be said about Gates. He's doing a lot of good things in other arenas, but I wouldn't buy an operating system from him if I were you.

antiemptyv
June 28th, 2007, 04:40 PM
Exactly. And even if you were cleaning the lake to get brownie points, the lake is still clean. The fish don't care why you did it, they're just happy that their home is now easier to live in. The fact that you cheated on your homework is completely irrelevant. If I were explaining you to someone else I might say "She cares a lot about the environment, but don't trust her homework."

The same could be said about Gates. He's doing a lot of good things in other arenas, but I wouldn't buy an operating system from him if I were you.

good point.

forrestcupp
June 28th, 2007, 06:07 PM
I find it pretty sickening how people who hate someone can even criticize and trash the good things that that person/business does. This "I'm" thing is helping people out, and people here are mad about it because it is Microsoft. They could just give money, but any business-minded person knows that you have to make money to give money away. So they are using their advertising revenues for benevolence. What's wrong with that? It's a common business practice.

Also, if you're close-minded to anything Gates has to say, you won't be able to comprehend what he was saying about the "creative capitalism" thing. Creative capitalism isn't meant to be the solution to the world's problems. It is the thing that generates the funds needed to come up with the solution to the world's problems. I think we can all agree that generating funds is one of Bill Gate's gifts.

karellen
June 28th, 2007, 06:17 PM
Okay, we're going to relook at "good" and "evil" because apparently my version of it is different than the version of it here.

I do bad things. I have cheated on my homework on occasion. I should hope that a teacher could see me as a person who does charitable things, but also has cheated on her homework. A person who does good and bad just like everyone else. I should hope that that teacher doesn't just look at me and says, "She cheats on her homework, so everything else that Daynah does must be for some alterior motive. She must be cleaning up the local lake to try to get brownie points."

No, I happen to be cleaning up the local lake to... clean up the local lake. And I hope people can see past the cheating to see that I can do good things too. Of course, should I get caught cheating, I should still get a bad grade.

Point is, everyone does bad things. But everyone also does good things. Everyone.

Bill Gates screws Linux over. That's a bad thing. You've done bad things, also. I know a friend who pushed a beggar into the middle of a street. But Bill Gates also goes good things, my friend also does good things, and you, who do bad things, also do good things.

Without even KNOWING YOU, I trust you to be a person who does good things. But you judge Bill Gates on this few action and choose not to see his good ones? Do you want to be judged like this? How horrible and jaded a world when people only see the bad in other people.

just ignore him...
this line says all
also your proly not mentioning that at each of those places where bill gives money away.....he also makes efforts to put opensource down
he can't see further or something else besides open source

jrusso2
June 28th, 2007, 06:36 PM
I would encourage anyone to read about the robber barons of the 19th and early 20th century america.

Look up the names J.P. Morgan, J.D. Rockefeller and Andrew Carnegie.

Each of these men were ruthless capitalists that exploited workers, broke strikes, and subjected millions to unnecessary unsafe conditions to gain more money.

Yet they are remembered fondly for what they did at the end of their lives which was to donate millions to charities.

No one remembers their ruthless business practices and what they did to make their fortunes. To me this is the worst kind of revisionist history.

I see Bill Gates and companies like Nike doing something similar.

karellen
June 28th, 2007, 06:42 PM
I'm just tired of all this microsoft/gates hate...It's just intoxicating. maybe it's something wrong with me that I can't stand those kind of things. I prefer to keep my hate for something (or somebody) worthy of it...
don't bother replying, it's just me and my thoughts

p.s. if ms finds the cure for cancer or stops the global warming it probably won't change a thing in some people's minds. hate and narrow-mindness will be there, holding strong

starcraft.man
June 28th, 2007, 06:50 PM
This topic belongs in the backyard... its more of a debate than a cafe subject.

One thing I will add before I leave the topic for good (I'm not really interested in arguing this topic any further) is while you cited those nice large numbers Daynah, do you actually know how much good was done with it? I can say I gave 1000$ to my local hospital in a charity drive, I don't really know if thats wisely spent on finding a cure for some disease, increasing doctor salary/residency, buying more needed medication or plain just eaten up in administrative costs. Numbers are nice, but in the end its results that matter, my example easily scales up to hundreds of millions of dollars as well, mismanagement is problematic everywhere far as I've seen.

Like I and Wh0rd suggested on the previous page (and many people promptly ignored, I invite you to go reread) the problems stem from a greater issue of government endorsed profit drive capitalism taken to an extreme (I invite you to read the philosophic and business underpinnings that form the theoretical base of Capitalism to understand why the US and many other country models DO NOT represent real capitalism). Combined with the fact that petty competitive disputes (patent arguments whether in bio medical or software as wh0rd exemplified) divide our major corporations and other endeavours instead of uniting us in one unified effort (i.e. we have thousands of charities competing for money to do the same job rather than a unified front to do it) to do something and you have an equation for ineffectual change in perpetuity.

PS: Karellen, I do not hate MS. I do not praise them or Bill Gates either for throwing money at the problems of the world. It hasn't in times past brought about change in a substantial way and it won't in the present or future, real change doesn't happen because money exchanged hands. It happens through genuine will of people to do good, and corporations (in today's day and age) through their uncaring greed have proven that they whole heartedly don't care about genuine good, thats not profitable.

Thats my 2 cents, I'm bailing out of this thread before it takes a turn and starts flames.

steven8
June 29th, 2007, 10:02 AM
Dark cloud over good works of Gates Foundation (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gatesx07jan07,0,6827615.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

From the LA Times. Please read it all. I won't say anymore about this.