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cprofitt
June 22nd, 2007, 07:41 PM
Another interesting article from eWeek.

link - http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2148866,00.asp?kc=EWKNLENT062207STR3

I have not followed the furor over GPLv3; is it really that bad?

energiya
June 22nd, 2007, 07:44 PM
Open Source Dying?!?
DON'T THINK SO !

SendDerek
June 22nd, 2007, 07:51 PM
I'm no Linux expert, and I havn't been a user for more than 2 years, but... I think it's picking up more steam than it ever has before.

I didn't read the article, BTW. But, I know that Linus Torvald is a great "leader" and he has personally approved and supported GPLv3 to the fullest. So, that ought to say something.

r0ck80y
June 22nd, 2007, 07:52 PM
The days of Windows are almost numbered. Its clear from Vista which has nothing new and has tried copying some of the features linux and mac already have.

Crafty Kisses
June 22nd, 2007, 07:54 PM
Another interesting article from eWeek.

link - http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2148866,00.asp?kc=EWKNLENT062207STR3

I have not followed the furor over GPLv3; is it really that bad?

The funny this is, if you actually stay on the Ubuntu forums, there's at least 10 people that Switch to Ubuntu everyday, I don't think it's dying, if anything Windows is dying.

Ultra Magnus
June 22nd, 2007, 08:00 PM
Apparently Ubuntu doubles its user base every 8 months - Some probably switch from other distros but that is quite allot of growth! So no open source isn't dying!

christhemonkey
June 22nd, 2007, 08:01 PM
But, I know that Linus Torvald is a great "leader" and he has personally approved and supported GPLv3 to the fullest.
He isnt behind the GPLv3.
Read this:
http://www.ussg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0601.3/0559.html



The Linux kernel is under the GPL version 2. Not anything else. Some
individual files are licenceable under v3, but not the kernel in general.

And quite frankly, I don't see that changing. I think it's insane to
require people to make their private signing keys available, for example.
I wouldn't do it. So I don't think the GPL v3 conversion is going to
happen for the kernel, since I personally don't want to convert any of my
code.

Ultra Magnus
June 22nd, 2007, 08:14 PM
actually - if the number of users keeps doubling every 8months, then in about 6 years most of the people on earth will be using it - perhapes a bit optimistic but hey!

Ex-Cyber
June 22nd, 2007, 08:27 PM
didn't Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer famously upbraid open-source proponents for being Communists?No less a Microsoft leader than Bill Gates called Free Culture / Creative Commons / copyright reform advocates "modern-day sort of communists". I suspect that the idea is pretty well established in Microsoft's executive culture.

As for GPL3, there are issues (for one thing, the license is pretty long and complex), but much of the heat appears to be generated by people who don't care about the GNU idea of Free Software in the first place and don't even advocate GPL2. I've also seen some pretty implausible claims about what it supposedly restricts. One person told me that GPL3-covered software cannot implement any patented technology. Another told me that GPL3-covered software is forbidden from being used as part of any DRM system. Reading the draft, I don't see anything that seems to support these claims. For my part, I doubt that I'll apply GPL3 to anything I write, simply because the complexity doesn't seem worth it. This is especially true when considering that the kind of trivial programs I write are usually shorter than GPL3 to begin with; just including the license text would probably triple the download size. :D


He isnt behind the GPLv3.
Read this:
http://www.ussg.iu.edu/hypermail/lin...01.3/0559.htmlThat post is based on an older draft, and his opposition has softened considerably in light of revisions that have been made since then; see e.g. this post (http://www.uwsg.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0706.1/0972.html) from a couple weeks ago. He's no huge fan, but he has at least entertained the idea of relicensing for compatibility reasons (e.g. if Sun releases OpenSolaris under GPL3).

Bachstelze
June 22nd, 2007, 08:29 PM
I didn't read the article, BTW. But, I know that Linus Torvald is a great "leader" and he has personally approved and supported GPLv3 to the fullest. So, that ought to say something.

Source ? To my knowledge, Linus has always disapproved the GPLv3.

cprofitt
June 22nd, 2007, 08:34 PM
Ex-Cyber:

Cool... that was some good information. I am just getting in to the open source arena... I consider open source to be for any OS, not just Linux variants, so it was interesting to hear your take on GPLv3.

Most of the apps I have written have been fairly long, but the only one I release (Active Directory Mate) was fairly small.

jonathonblake
June 22nd, 2007, 09:18 PM
Another interesting article from eWeek.

When it comes to FLOSS, eWeek (and Ziff Davis) is about as credible as a page three girl talking about economic policies.


I have not followed the furor over GPLv3; is it really that bad?

There is a realistic chance that if the Linux kernel switches to GPL 3.0, all of the Linux orientated companies that signed patent agreements with Microsoft will implode. It may also have a negative effect on TiVo.

xan

jonathon

cprofitt
June 23rd, 2007, 12:19 AM
I have heard rumors that Ubuntu is possibly going to sign a deal with MS... so implosion would be bad.

louieb
June 23rd, 2007, 04:14 AM
As long as there are universities and people working on their doctorate degree open source will continue to thrive. A lot of the work on open source projects is done by the academic community.

lazyart
June 23rd, 2007, 04:17 AM
I have heard rumors that Ubuntu is possibly going to sign a deal with MS... so implosion would be bad.

Substantiate? Link??

cprofitt
June 23rd, 2007, 04:39 AM
Substantiate? Link??

Here is a link to a denial of the rumors: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,133037-pg,1/article.html

link to an article that lead to some of the "speculation" - http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=8901

I don't have the time to find the other articles I read on-line and there were several speculating about this in-print as well.

Denials are nice, but where there is smoke there is often fire the saying goes... and the rumor is still out there.

qamelian
June 23rd, 2007, 04:48 AM
Here is a link to a denial of the rumors: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,133037-pg,1/article.html

link to an article that lead to some of the "speculation" - http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=8901

I don't have the time to find the other articles I read on-line and there were several speculating about this in-print as well.

Denials are nice, but where there is smoke there is often fire the saying goes... and the rumor is still out there.

Mark Shuttleworth has already stated on his blog that these speculations are completely incorrect. Why do people need to keep bringing this up when it has already been refuted not to mention beaten to death on these forums already?

djheadley
June 23rd, 2007, 04:49 AM
Has anyone here actually read the eweek article? I have. Read the last sentences, then you'll see what the writer REALLY said.

SendDerek
June 23rd, 2007, 05:03 AM
Source ? To my knowledge, Linus has always disapproved the GPLv3.

On Digg:
http://digg.com/linux_unix/Torvalds_quite_impressed_with_new_version_of_GPLv3 _final_draft

Direct Link:
http://www.linux.com/articles/114336

Linus Quote:



Writing on the Linux Kernel Developers mailing list yesterday, Torvalds responded when a developer wrote that he (Torvalds) "was quite impressed with the toned down version of the final draft of GPLv3."

I was impressed in the sense that it was a hell of a lot better than the disaster that were the earlier drafts.

I still think GPLv2 is simply the better license.

I consider dual-licensing unlikely (and technically quite hard), but at least _possible_ in theory. I have yet to see any actual *reasons* for licensing under the GPLv3, though. All I've heard are shrill voices about "tivoization" (which I expressly think is ok) and panicked worries about Novell-MS (which seems way overblown, and quite frankly, the argument seems to not so much be about the Novell deal, as about an excuse to push the GPLv3).


My apologies though... I guess I merely scanned over it and didn't realize what it was actually saying. I just read the title on Digg saying "Linus 'Very Impressed' with GPLv3". So, I wasn't very accurate in what I was saying. Now I know.

bapoumba
June 23rd, 2007, 02:39 PM
Thread moved to "Community Cafe", as this is not for support.

caseymoore
June 23rd, 2007, 02:56 PM
Open source is expanding. Especially ubuntu. The free CD's really helps. Ubuntu has climbed up to the top distro in a very short time. Also has anyone here used windows?! IT IS HORRIBLE. Seriously, torture. I don't think people understand how much better linux is. Also Mac is just glittery desktop illusions and widgets. Annoying. Counter-productive. Stick with linux. Linux is used more than Mac now (I think). We'll just keep on growing until eventually it will cost software developers money NOT to create linux versions of their software.

gnomeuser
June 23rd, 2007, 03:07 PM
If "Open Source" is dying it must be due to starvation caused by all these new users we're getting every day. It has never been easier to use or get Free Software, no OS supports more hardware out of the box than Linux and it has never been easier to build a business on Free Software.

Linux is on every kind of device today, the market share is growing every day and we are carving out new markets on our own (like the OLPC). Hell we now have Dell shipping Linux preinstalled to users.. we are on the map and spreading like wildfire.

We are not going anywhere at all, anyone who tells you otherwise is sadly misguided and unable to do research or statistics.

rocknrolf77
June 23rd, 2007, 03:10 PM
I see a lot of new users everyday on different forums. So NO :)

FuturePilot
June 23rd, 2007, 03:11 PM
Hmmm. I've thought that's it's been growing at a very fast pace. I think ever since Vista came out more people have been trying out Linux. And the funny thing was I predicted that would happen a long time ago.
There's new Linux users every day. Just look how big and successful this community is.

Enverex
June 23rd, 2007, 03:31 PM
Do people start threads with names like this to try and shock people into reading them or maybe because they know it will irritate people into replying?

Really, think before posting. I mean actually say it out loud, realise how stupid it sounds and just don't bother.

@trophy
June 23rd, 2007, 03:38 PM
Linux is used more than Mac now (I think). We'll just keep on growing until eventually it will cost software developers money NOT to create linux versions of their software.

Umm... not really... according to here (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2) linux desktop usage ranks just behind Windows 98, with .7%.

kamaboko
June 23rd, 2007, 04:00 PM
I think it is an excellent article and clearly lays out the problems confronting Open Source. Even more telling are the 10 reasons to use and not to use Open Source. They really hit the nail on the head. If you didn't see the slide show, here's a recap:

Why to use Open Source:
1. Your peers will think you're cool
(This mindset is certainly prevalent here. But in the end, who cares about cool?)
2. MS executives are rich enough
(How much blathering do I read about that? Shuttleworth isn't doing too bad. Enough.)
3. The CFO will give you a big raise for saving money
(No CFO does that regardless of using MS or Linux)
4. MS will pay more attention to you
(Really?)
5. IBM, Oracle, and everyone else will pay more attention to you.
(Whoppie, really?)
6. Easier to recruit college graduates.
(Huh?)
7. Lower application development costs
(That's a no brainer when people work for free.)
8. Access to free worldwide support network
(LOL. MS has had this for years. It's called a bulletin board...like this).
9. Higher quality software b/c of peer review
(Lots of arguments against this even among Linux developers)
10. No need to manage software licenses
(Unless you're buying Red Hat)


Why to Use Microsoft

1. Microsoft is a safe choice
(I'm sure this will be up for debate here)
2. Richer set of application development tools
(Enterprises businesses like this)
3. Larger number of packaged applications available
(Enterprise, small businesses, and home users like this)
4. Desktop Linux is immature and perhaps unnecessary
(Up for debate)
5. Technical support costs are actually higher than .Net
(Businesses love lower TCO)
6. Windows environments have better support tools
(Without question. Businesses also like this)
7. Richer layer for application and business process integration middleware
(No brainer. Businesses also like this, especially the big one's like AT&T, Toyota, etc)
8. More focused commercial technical support from MS
(Yep, true)
9. MS creates end-to-end framework that offers lower TCO
(Businesses really love this)
10...was a stupid reason

The point being (and I've said it many times here), Linux will be permanently parked on the curb until it develops enterprise applications on par with MS. Businesses need more than just file servers and word doc applications. In that respect, Linux simply cannot compete.

iceportal
June 23rd, 2007, 04:14 PM
No. Open Source is not dying.

As long as people have passion for software, there will be Open Source.

Whether people use GPL v3 or some other open license, Open Source will live on.

For anyone to claim that changes in the GPL will kill Open Source shows a lack of understanding of how Open Source works. The whole point is adaptation and community and freedom. And if one license limits the freedoms Open Source enjoys, then that license will be quickly abandoned and a new one (or pre-existing one) will take its place.

A glance at the numbers of new Open Source projects and Open Source users will quickly dispell any myths about the "death of Open Source."

Whether Linux overthrows Microsoft is irrelevant. Whether it gains control of the desktop market is irrelevant. Linux has never known such popularity (by default) as Windows or Mac, yet it still continues to grow unabated. So long as people like you and me continue to give a damn, Open Source will thrive.

End of story.

Ebuntor
June 23rd, 2007, 04:34 PM
Umm... not really... according to here (http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2) linux desktop usage ranks just behind Windows 98, with .7%.

Those statistics were already thoroughly discussed in other threads.
Those 0.7% represent the commercial Linux distros. The market share of the free distros is much larger.

@trophy
June 23rd, 2007, 04:36 PM
Those statistics were already thoroughly discussed in other threads.
Those 0.7% represent the commercial Linux distros. The market share of the free distros is much larger.

Much larger, but not bigger than Apple... if you count server usage, linux is way ahead, but as far as desktop penetration we've got a long way to go. The situation is improving, though!

diskotek
June 23rd, 2007, 04:40 PM
i always dislike titles like that...

for example:
linux is dying.
microsoft is finished.
ubuntu dying
etc..

iceportal
June 23rd, 2007, 04:45 PM
I wish there were a way to, uniformly, have every single computer in the world report what OS it's using (anonymously of course, no need to pry) so we could see a side-by-side comparison of exactly how many people use what OSes (including dual- or triple-boot systems).

I know there are estimates, but I wish we could get hard facts.

trak87
June 23rd, 2007, 04:47 PM
I believe Linus T. does not like the GPLv3. It was discussed on this Linux webcast:

http://www.linuxactionshow.com/

Shabakthanai
June 23rd, 2007, 04:55 PM
I've only been with Linux for about a month. I had lots of difficulties, however, in the short time I have joined Linux enthusiasts, I can't wait to get enough expertise to chuck windows forever. Spending a month working on Linux, you get used to features you don't remember being much different when using Microsoft. Nonetheless, just the number of unused and unnecessary mouse-clicks forced upon you when using Windows is enough reason to change.

I don't know about you, but it is obvious that the powers that be in the other systems go out of their way to hamstring Linux at every opportunity. They have the economic power to keep huge companies from supporting Linux. An example is my server. AT&T, along with Bell Labs, created UNIX, however as my server, they will not support Linux which is UNIX based. As a consequence, my email service is problematic. I will be able to fix it, however, as soon as someone can compete with them at an affordable High Speed Internet Service Provider I will probably dis-continue to use them.

I hate to be manipulated. That is what Microsoft does. I won't even purchase their stock anymore when it appears to be a good deal, because I don't want to support them in any way anymore. In fact those big companies that relent to Microsoft's pressure, like ABC, CBS, and NBC, already dying, are off my list of whom I will support as well.

Everyone should think about their unsavory behavior and change accordingly.

They will never stop LINUX for the simple reason, every time someone looks into LINUX, they are overwhelmed with the quality. The learning curve is it's only hindrance, however, people like to have the best, so as light is brought on LINUX, darkness will hover over Microsoft and anyone else who practices their unethical behavior.

forrestcupp
June 23rd, 2007, 05:51 PM
Much larger, but not bigger than Apple... if you count server usage, linux is way ahead, but as far as desktop penetration we've got a long way to go. The situation is improving, though!

How do you know? There is no way of knowing what the Linux desktop penetration really is. Any statistics are based on market share which is a lot different than actual usage. The truth is that we don't know whether there are more Mac or Linux users.

And no, open source is not going to die. If it does, the internet shuts down.

kamaboko
June 23rd, 2007, 06:13 PM
How do you know? There is no way of knowing what the Linux desktop penetration really is. Any statistics are based on market share which is a lot different than actual usage. The truth is that we don't know whether there are more Mac or Linux users.

And no, open source is not going to die. If it does, the internet shuts down.

I think W3Schools online offers a pretty good picture as to who is running what OS.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

az
June 23rd, 2007, 07:07 PM
Another interesting article from eWeek.


That article lists a number of disjointed facts that have nothing to do with one another. It is mostly irrelevant.



I have not followed the furor over GPLv3; is it really that bad?

The GPLv3 is not good or bad, it is what it is. It's job is to pretect software freedom. When you want to switch a project like the linux kernel which litterally has thousands of contributers, the transition from one license to another (or one version of a licese to another) is a big deal and can take a long time. Nothing new here. Nothing relevant.

What is important is that thousands of FLOSS projects will chose the GPLv3 once it is final. That's not to say that the GPLv2 is bad or that it will somehow stop working.

So, just about anything you hear about eh GPLv3 these days is irrelevant hype.

forrestcupp
June 23rd, 2007, 09:43 PM
I think W3Schools online offers a pretty good picture as to who is running what OS.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

Well, at least it appears that those statistics are not based on market share. But here is a quote from their page taken from right under the OS statistics:

Statistics Are Often Misleading

You cannot - as a web developer - rely only on statistics. Statistics can often be misleading.

Global averages may not always be relevant to your web site. Different sites attract different audiences. Some web sites attract professional developers using professional hardware, while other sites attract hobbyists using old low spec computers.

kamaboko
June 23rd, 2007, 10:04 PM
Well, at least it appears that those statistics are not based on market share. But here is a quote from their page taken from right under the OS statistics:

Well, I never said they were the last word in statistics, but they are representative of what one may find if consulting other surveys. For instance, you'll never see something like...."Linux accounts for 35% of world wide desktop users".

Viewtifulj
June 24th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Seemed like an interesting article. Im definately new to the scene but it seems cool so far. Hopefully none of the issues he mentioned end up bearing fruit.

headflux
June 25th, 2007, 01:04 PM
I agree with CodeName. I'm a recent Linux convert, having got completely fed up with the abysmal performance of Vista. I don't think MS have done themselves a favours with Vista, particularly as the rumour on the streets is that there will be a charge for the first service pack. Ubuntu Linux on the other hand is a great platform; stable, relaible and new release each 6 months, all for free!

Zzl1xndd
June 25th, 2007, 01:20 PM
Well, I never said they were the last word in statistics, but they are representative of what one may find if consulting other surveys. For instance, you'll never see something like...."Linux accounts for 35% of world wide desktop users".

No but I can find reports where it is estimated at 6-7% and that would be larger then Mac and a lot of people as well.

ukripper
June 25th, 2007, 01:29 PM
Open source is still open and will be forever.

Zzl1xndd
June 25th, 2007, 01:39 PM
Open source is still open and will be forever.

Agreed, At worst with the GPLv2 vs GPLv3 is the Kernel stays v2 this might cause issues but I doubt it is going to stay version 2 as Solaris is talking about moving to v3 and Linus has said that he is more willing to go to v3 if solaris puts ZFS under v3 as well.

nphx
July 2nd, 2007, 05:06 PM
If you don't think Linux is growing, you are probably not paying attention to the latest happenings. Companies like Dell invest in desktop Linux and is doing so well that they've provided more hardware available for pre-installed Linux. This includes from the the high end XPS Desktop and Laptop categories. There is also news about HP offering desktop Linux on their PCs because of Dell's success. So I don't understand when people say Linux is dying, open source is dying. It's quite the opposite.

23meg
July 2nd, 2007, 05:15 PM
We are not going anywhere at all, anyone who tells you otherwise is sadly misguided and unable to do research or statistics.

Or has a vested interest in telling you otherwise, which is often the case with mainstream IT magazines and websites.

icecruncher
July 2nd, 2007, 05:23 PM
open source? dying?
haha, musta been payed by microsoft...