Microsoft Muscles the NYS Legislature

[BoyOfDestiny]

Software giant moves to weaken NY Election law

The 800 pound gorilla of software development has moved forcefully into New York State, supported by voting machine vendors using Microsoft Windows in their touch screen voting machines and other systems. Over the last two months Microsoft and a cadre of high paid lobbyists have been working a full-court press in Albany in an attempt to bring about a serious weakening of New York State election law. This back door effort by private corporations to weaken public protections is about to bear fruit.

On Thursday, June 14, I recieved a copy of proposed changes to New York State Election Law drafted by Microsoft attorneys that has been circulating among the Legislature. These changes would gut the source code escrow and review provisions provided in our current law, which were fought for and won by election integrity activists around the state and adopted by the Legislature in June 2005.

...

http://nyvv.org/blog/bolipariblog.html

Emphasis mine.
I think this is wrong and naughty. :P

[steven8]

Heinous. Totally heinous. Yet another blatant example of the current state of affairs.

I have my hunches, but I'm most curious to see who the first members of this forum will be to step up and say that it's 'perfectly understandable, reasonable, or acceptable'.

[weblordpepe]

Well it sure isn't gonna be me. Why on earth would Microsoft want to get in the way of a perfectly reasonable law? Its vital that all the details of voting mechanisms be made available for everyone to scrutinize. Electronic or otherwise.

This move by Microsoft, at least to me, makes it look like they want it possible to hide functionality inside voting booths.

[smoker]

from link:

Up to now, New York State has been rightfully proud to have adopted some of the strictest regulations regarding the new electronic voting systems in the entire nation. The Legislature has been patting themselves on the back for two years now for passing such an excellent set of laws. For the most part, they had a right to be proud. But now these powerful private companies are working the Legislature behind the scenes trying to quietly change New York Election Law to remove the public’s protections and to serve their private interests.

how would new yorkers know for sure if their vote counted if the machinery used for that vote cannot be examined? in another regard, what would stop unlawful interference with the voting system, could an immoral party implement hidden changes to ensure voting went in their favour?

not accusing ms of anything here, but i would like any voting system in my country to be 'above and beyond' reproach, and easily proven to be by independent bodies.

[scrooge_74]

....perfectly understandable, reasonable, or acceptable.........I said it first!!!

I cant trust a company who tries this and let a lone cheerfully go and cast a vote using a system which could be easily rig and nobody would now about it. On that subject I read a few months ago this (http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/evoting.ars)

[samjh]

WTF?

Elections should be open, and that includes electronic voting. I hope the NYS legislators will see through this and blast it.

[Biochem]

You cannot beat the open sourceness of a good pen and a piece of paper. After florida I don't understand why United-Statians haven't figured that one out yet.

[Fenryr]

You cannot beat the open sourceness of a good pen and a piece of paper. After florida I don't understand why United-Statians haven't figured that one out yet.




As a former resident of Florida, I tend to agree...Somethin' smells strongly of ammonia and other organic byproducts...There is NO WAY anyone could convince me that a state full of humpbacked bluehairs who can take a marker in each hand and keep simultaneous track of three TABLES full of bingo cards 4 nights a week are too senile to figure out how to fill in a BALLOT...I just ain't buyin' it...*l*

[weblordpepe]

Haha yeah I never thought of equating voting to Bingo (we call it Housie in New Zealand).
Open-source is the only way to go for any form of electronic voting. Even if I was pro-Microsoft, I would still insist on the source code being completely open for voting machines.
The last thing I want to hear, in any country - is that a security voulnerbility was found in a voting machine and that it could have been found if the source code was viewable.

[samjh]

The last thing I want to hear, in any country - is that a security voulnerbility was found in a voting machine and that it could have been found if the source code was viewable.

And perhaps more fundamental to the issue: that anyone and everyone can view the source code of the software being used and know that it is not rigged or being abused.

[Tundro Walker]

Excuse me, pardon me, Devil's Advocate coming through..

I can see why you would want a closed-source software solution for a voting machine...so someone can't figure out how to hack it and rig a whole election.

However, if they're pushing for some kind of LAW that states this is mandatory, I'd be very careful in how that law is stated. MS has a knack of bending the LETTER of the law outside the original INTENT of the law, so they can some how apply it to other things. Things people might feel uncomfortable about it applying to (like medical equipment!)

[jfinkels]

You cannot beat the open sourceness of a good pen and a piece of paper. After florida I don't understand why United-Statians haven't figured that one out yet.
I agree. Pen and paper all the way.

Haha yeah I never thought of equating voting to Bingo (we call it Housie in New Zealand).
The reason for the Bingo comment is that there are lots of old people in Florida. I don't know if that's common knowledge outside of the United States :D

Excuse me, pardon me, Devil's Advocate coming through..

I can see why you would want a closed-source software solution for a voting machine...so someone can't figure out how to hack it and rig a whole election.

Yeah, just like Windows....?

[igknighted]

We are talking about the state who hasn't passed a budget on time in 20+ years... and this is just about the only thing they did this session. Wow I love NY politics.

[Feba]

I can see why you would want a closed-source software solution for a voting machine...so someone can't figure out how to hack it and rig a whole election.

You've never heard of the cathedral and the bazaar, have you? Open source is MUCH MUCH less likely to be hacked than closed source. People will look at it, if they see a flaw, they'll point it out. This is why Linux has practically no security holes, compared to windows which is full of them. Yes, someone could exploit them, but it's just as likely someone doing the right thing will bring attention to it. At worst, an open source hole would delay an election, or move it into paper ballots.


Demanding that machines be closed source is just asking for a huge mistake- or worse, poll fixing. I believe there was a Robin Williams movie about this recently

[DoctorMO]

I can see why you would want a closed-source software solution for a voting machine...so someone can't figure out how to hack it and rig a whole election.

What ignorance, you trust authority far too much than is good for you.

[Tundro Walker]

It's called "Devil's Advocate" for a reason. Somebody has to fuel the debate, otherwise there's just a bunch of "oh, this is horrible" comments without much reinforcement of the statements. By playing devil's advocate, folks started citing reasons why this would be bad, and how solid open-source can be.

My work here is done.;)

[steven8]

It's called "Devil's Advocate" for a reason. Somebody has to fuel the debate, otherwise there's just a bunch of "oh, this is horrible" comments without much reinforcement of the statements. By playing devil's advocate, folks started citing reasons why this would be bad, and how solid open-source can be.

My work here is done.;)

What was bad about it was so blatantly obvious it wasn't funny.

[insane_alien]

I'm not from the US so i don't know for sure, but, wouldn't it be illegal for a company to affect something like this which would have implications on who gets elected in that state/province/whatever or ultimately as president.

[Feba]

It would be fixing an election, so yes. I'd be amazed if someone could get away with it without being assassinated or locked up for an extremely long amount of time.


Somebody has to fuel the debate, otherwise there's just a bunch of "oh, this is horrible" comments without much reinforcement of the statements.We don't need a freakin' debate. We all know why open source is better than closed source, bringing that up for the sake of argument is just disrupting the conversation. If you want to debate, go find a debating forum and leave people that just want to talk alone.

[jfinkels]

I'm not from the US so i don't know for sure, but, wouldn't it be illegal for a company to affect something like this which would have implications on who gets elected in that state/province/whatever or ultimately as president.

You would think that mixing politics with industry would be illegal or at least frowned upon. Unfortunately, this is how our government works. This is one of the reasons it has become such an embarrassment to its own people and international onlookers.

[Tundro Walker]

In the US, it is illegal to give politically influential folks bribes, kickbacks, etc. However, corporations work around this by using lobbyists, which are basically someone constantly in contact with the politicians voicing the corporations best interests, guiding politicians towards bills and laws that would best interest corporations, and proposing such get made, too. In return, there's usually some kind of suggestion of campaign funding or something (not quite sure how it all works "legally" exactly, because it sounds so illegal, but its not.)

Meanwhile, the common people have the phone and email to contact their local politicians...whom pretty much ignore whatever the regular folks have to say. Unless, the regular folks get together in such mass as to not be ignored, or they hire their own lobbyist to push for their own agenda. (This can get tricky, since some "consumer advocacy" groups or what-not, which look like charitable groups trying to do what's best for the common person, are actually pushing their own agendas under the guise of consumer advocacy.)

Sadly, it's called "politics" for a reason...

[Fenryr]

Politics, Prostitution, and Priesthood...Mankinds three oldest methods of avoiding HONEST work...*g*

[jfinkels]

Politics, Prostitution, and Priesthood...Mankinds three oldest methods of avoiding HONEST work...*g*

Prostitution IS honest work.

[scrooge_74]

I think Fenryr meant hard work

[Feba]

I'd think prostitution would be hard...



God I love puns.

[jfinkels]

I think Fenryr meant hard work

...thank you. ^^

[weblordpepe]

Well I said it before and I'll say it again.
There just can't be any leverage on this. Voting machines absolutely need to be open-source.

I'm going to take a while guess (I don't know jack about US politics) that people don't trust voting machines, because they can't see how they work?

How complicated can a voting machine be anyway? There should be information available to everyone who votes: for them to see how the voting software works.

I'm putting my nose in another country's business here.. but to me, this is a crossroads point where you loose democracy if you choose the wrong path.

[Fenryr]

As a former American, and worse, a former FLORIDA resident, I'm among the many Americans who suspect that it was chicanery with the Diebold electronic voting machines that got this current moron ELECTED...You can't trust ANY voting system that doesn't leave a hard paper trail for verification of the results, ANYTHING electronic is just too open to manipulation at the most basic levels...

[Feba]

I doubt it was the machines nearly as much as the electoral college and the 'coincidence' that his brother runs the state.

[jrusso2]

Plenty of elections were rigged when they only had pen and paper.

[Fenryr]

Plenty of elections were rigged when they only had pen and paper.

True, but it's a HELL of a lot harder to get away with it, PHYSICAL evidence has an inconvenient way of rising from the grave...

[Tundro Walker]

Prostitution IS honest work.

Yeah, don't go lowering Prostitutes to the level of Politicians and Priests...that's just insulting.

[jfinkels]

I'm putting my nose in another country's business here.. but to me, this is a crossroads point where you loose democracy if you choose the wrong path.
We have lost many of our civil liberties and democratic processes to the ignorance of the current administration. We've already got one foot going down that wrong path; this is why the 2008 presidential election will be so crucial to the future of our nation.

As a former American, and worse, a former FLORIDA resident, I'm among the many Americans who suspect that it was chicanery with the Diebold electronic voting machines that got this current moron ELECTED...You can't trust ANY voting system that doesn't leave a hard paper trail for verification of the results, ANYTHING electronic is just too open to manipulation at the most basic levels...
Darn you, Diebold!

I doubt it was the machines nearly as much as the electoral college and the 'coincidence' that his brother runs the state.
Feba, you are a conspiracy theorist and therefore probably a terrorist. I hereby place you under citizen's arrest.

:D

Plenty of elections were rigged when they only had pen and paper.
What do you mean by "rigged"?

[weblordpepe]

Yeah, don't go lowering Prostitutes to the level of Politicians and Priests...that's just insulting.

Thats my vote for forum post of the year. :D

But yeah I agree. NZ has alot of American TV and America has been very international in recent years so alot of us in NZ can't help but know a bit about whats going on in the US.

And I for one am quite anxious about the next election. All I can say is Im glad for the world's sake that bush is going. He's been nothing but trouble and it blows the mind how he got re-elected.

[mips]

Thats my vote for forum post of the year. :D

I kinda have to agree with you ther ;)


He's been nothing but trouble and it blows the mind how he got re-elected.

Uhm, the citizens of the USA voted him into power, not all of them but the majority. Maybe the focus should be on those that voted him into power as he did not do it on his own.

[samjh]

http://www.sdtimes.com/article/column-20070115-01.html

[steven8]

Uhm, the citizens of the USA voted him into power, not all of them but the majority. Maybe the focus should be on those that voted him into power as he did not do it on his own.

Actually, he lost the majority vote to Al Gore, but won the electoral vote. he was NOT voted in by the majority of 'the people' in 2000, it was 'winning' his brother's state which got him the electoral college victory.

In 2004, I believe it was fear of 'changing horses during a war', which kept him in office. Sad, but true.

[Fenryr]

Uhm, the citizens of the USA voted him into power, not all of them but the majority. Maybe the focus should be on those that voted him into power as he did not do it on his own.



Not QUITE accurate...America, unlike Australia and NZ, does NOT have compulsory voting...So those who actually voted this moron into power (TWICE?) represent a slim majority of the VOTERS...Who themselves are a MINORITY of the total of ELIGIBLE voters, since most Americans don't bother to vote AT ALL...Which means that a small but VOCAL minority of axe-grinders has a fairly easy time forcing THEIR will on the REST of the country...It's a f**ked system, I know, and that's part of why I don't LIVE in the US anymore...

The MAIN reason I migrated, though, sleeps beside me every night...And she SNORES...*l*

[steven8]

Not QUITE accurate...America, unlike Australia and NZ, does NOT have compulsory voting...So those who actually voted this moron into power (TWICE?) represent a slim majority of the VOTERS...Who themselves are a MINORITY of the total of ELIGIBLE voters, since most Americans don't bother to vote AT ALL...Which means that a small but VOCAL minority of axe-grinders has a fairly easy time forcing THEIR will on the REST of the country...It's a f**ked system, I know, and that's part of why I don't LIVE in the US anymore...

You said a mouthfull of truth there, my friend. And so often it is those who don't vote who complain the loudest later on.

[Fenryr]

You said a mouthfull of truth there, my friend. And so often it is those who don't vote who complain the loudest later on.

Yeah, and THOSE folks are the most contemptible of the lot...If you don't VOTE, then you give consent by SILENCE to whatever those who DO vote decide...In other words, if you don't VOTE, you have no moral/ethical high ground from which to COMPLAIN about the RESULTS...*g*


Personally, I voted with my FEET and my WALLET...It's no longer MY tax dollars paying for the slaughter of anyone who gets between Bush and world domination, I've removed myself from the TAX base...
Same with the whole 'Micro$oft thing...I vote with my KEYBOARD whenever possible...By refusing to USE any micro$oft products when there are reasonable alternatives available...

[Feba]

Uhm, the citizens of the USA voted him into power, not all of them but the majority. Maybe the focus should be on those that voted him into power as he did not do it on his own.

oh hi there foreign guy who doesn't actually know what's going on in the US, how are you? Does the world look a little flat from up on your high horse?


Feba, you are a conspiracy theorist and therefore probably a terrorist. I hereby place you under citizen's arrest.say what you want, electoral college is America's Appendicitis.

[mips]

oh hi there foreign guy who doesn't actually know what's going on in the US, how are you? Does the world look a little flat from up on your high horse?


Somewhere there is a village missing an idiot...

[mips]

Not QUITE accurate...America, unlike Australia and NZ, does NOT have compulsory voting...So those who actually voted this moron into power (TWICE?) represent a slim majority of the VOTERS...Who themselves are a MINORITY of the total of ELIGIBLE voters, since most Americans don't bother to vote AT ALL...Which means that a small but VOCAL minority of axe-grinders has a fairly easy time forcing THEIR will on the REST of the country...It's a f**ked system, I know, and that's part of why I don't LIVE in the US anymore...


I understand what you are saying. Out of those that voted the majority picked him. Those that did not vote kinda did their country a disservice due to their inactions. Those that did not vote now has no right to complain about their present government as it is the result of their inaction.

Voting is not compulsory over here either but I'm beginning to wish it was. I believe it will somehow improve a flawed system if everybody casted a vote.

[Feba]

Out of those that voted the majority picked him.

Wow, are you dense? Again, it's already been stated that THIS IS NOT THE CASE. If you don't have a clue what you're saying, don't say it.


Somewhere there is a village missing an idiot...
Irony is a bitch.

[phidia]

We are talking about the state who hasn't passed a budget on time in 20+ years... and this is just about the only thing they did this session. Wow I love NY politics.

It's not just NY state unfortunately. NY resisted going to electronic voting ( I know a few local county pols) saying that the older machines work fine and the cost of electronic voting machines is quite a tax burden, and I believe both of those statements are true.
But the feds have been pushing electronic voting calling it "voting reform" LOL. Many States have already gone to electronic-closed source/with no oversite, or ability to determine if the companies providing the equipment and software are faulty or fraudulent.

e.g http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

And as to closed source somehow protecting voting from hacking nothing could be farther from the truth
see: http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting/

[mips]

Wow, are you dense? Again, it's already been stated that THIS IS NOT THE CASE. If you don't have a clue what you're saying, don't say it.


So in 2004 the population did not vote him into power ?

As for the electoral vote who chooses the electoral candidates and who chooses those that pick the electoral candidates ? Does it not filter down to the populous at the end of the day?

[dca]

Most of the issue(s) stemming from voting are not an issue w/ politicians but w/ the news... An all electronic system would benefit the news organizations because results (they would be instantaneous) can be based on their advertisers and scheduled programming, interviews, etc. Instead of the way we used to do it with the tally machine and the big curtains and the sound it made after you made your selections. Taking 'x' amount of time to get it to the regional location to begin tallying up votes, etc, etc. This is why in the old days if someone was leading by a certain margin percentage they'd just stop counting and call candidate 'a' the winner.

[jfinkels]

The MAIN reason I migrated, though, sleeps beside me every night...And she SNORES...*l*

AAaawwww...adorable :D


You said a mouthfull of truth there, my friend. And so often it is those who don't vote who complain the loudest later on.

Sadly, I was too young to vote then. I still plan on complaining :D

We must remember too that impeachment and recall are still viable options...


It's no longer MY tax dollars paying for the slaughter of anyone who gets between Bush and world domination, I've removed myself from the TAX base.
Thank you. The less money the government has to waste, the better.


say what you want, electoral college is America's Appendicitis.
Alas, I was joking. I hope you understood that.

Most of the issue(s) stemming from voting are not an issue w/ politicians but w/ the news... An all electronic system would benefit the news organizations because results (they would be instantaneous) can be based on their advertisers and scheduled programming, interviews, etc. Instead of the way we used to do it with the tally machine and the big curtains and the sound it made after you made your selections. Taking 'x' amount of time to get it to the regional location to begin tallying up votes, etc, etc. This is why in the old days if someone was leading by a certain margin percentage they'd just stop counting and call candidate 'a' the winner.
This is true, but I, too, am impatient, and appreciate instantaneous results. I want to know who's going to be screwing up my country for the next four years as soon as possible after I vote! :)

[Feba]

I hope you understood that.
I know, I'm just saying.


So in 2004 the population did not vote him into power ?
You do realize that the incumbent is ALWAYS going to have a huge advantage, just because he's already there, right?

Also, see http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen/4

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector, specifically

2004 election (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election%2C_2004): A Minnesota (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota) elector, pledged for Democrats John Kerry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry) and John Edwards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards), cast his or her presidential vote for John Ewards (sic), apparently accidentally. (All of Minnesota's electors cast their vice presidential ballots for John Edwards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edwards).) Minnesota's electors cast secret ballots, so unless one of the electors claims responsibility, it is unlikely that the identity of the faithless elector will ever be known. As a result of this incident, Minnesota Statutes were amended to provide for public balloting of the electors' votes and invalidation of a vote cast for someone other than the candidate pledged for by the elector.

People are rather powerless as far as the election goes, in our system. Again, if you don't know what's actually going on, don't comment.

[weblordpepe]

Ouch. That quote is quite damming.
Anyway I can comment because I make it clear Im acting on only what I know and I could be wrong.

Anyway....we have either a chick or a black guy coming up for president of America. Either way thats progress. I'd prefer the black guy whatever his name is though because he comes across as intelegent and compassionate.
Even if hes wrong somewhere, at least he's got a brain and uses it. Unlike 'Food on our families' Dubya.

[Feba]

black guy coming up for president of America.

Actually, recent polls have indicated that over 50% of white Americans and over 60% of hispanic Americans consider him multiracial.


a chick

I have my doubts about that one, too.

[weblordpepe]

Yeah I dont know anything about him bar an interview. Sorry if I stepped on some toes...Ive never understood why people are racist or anything. I mean he looks like a black guy so yeah. What is his name anyway?

Either way he'd get my vote because he seems quite refreshing. He was on an interview and talked about democracy and had quite a good insight. He was saying about how people get so concerned with taking a particular side in politics that they can overlook positive arguements from other parties. Because people attribute the other parties to being 'wrong' regardless.
At least from what I remember. Anyway some brains would go a long way in the White house.

[jfinkels]

Yeah I dont know anything about him bar an interview. Sorry if I stepped on some toes...Ive never understood why people are racist or anything. I mean he looks like a black guy so yeah. What is his name anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_obama


Either way he'd get my vote because he seems quite refreshing. He was on an interview and talked about democracy and had quite a good insight. He was saying about how people get so concerned with taking a particular side in politics that they can overlook positive arguements from other parties. Because people attribute the other parties to being 'wrong' regardless.
At least from what I remember. Anyway some brains would go a long way in the White house.
Well I would hope that people who will be voting should vote on more than just first impressions from a single news interview on a mainstream media channel. :P Just because he "seems" refreshing, doesn't necessarily mean...well, anything. Plus, I can talk about democracy and what's "right" all I want, but I'd be a terrible president.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, I have faith in neither the system nor the society :D

[weblordpepe]

Yeah.
Well I mean...my opinions are based on the current sum of my knowledge about the guy. Which at the moment ain't much :)

[Feba]

Well I mean...my opinions are based on the current sum of my knowledge about the guy. Which at the moment ain't much

which pretty much explains why democracy doesn't work.

[mips]

Again, if you don't know what's actually going on, don't comment.

Ok, I will stop commenting seeing I don't know much about conspiracy theories.

[weblordpepe]

which pretty much explains why democracy doesn't work.I don't think that kind of comment is needed. Dont start a troll war.
Besides, Linux is democratic.

[Feba]

Ok, I will stop commenting seeing I don't know much about conspiracy theories.

The fact that you consider them conspiracy theories shows that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about as far as U.S. politics are concerned.


I don't think that kind of comment is needed.
Eh, don't get me wrong, Democracy is the best thing we've come up with so far (at least of the systems that have actually been put into practice), but it's definitely far from perfect.

I personally like Johnny Carson's opinion of democracy. http://snopes.com/radiotv/tv/democracy.asp