Carmony's thoughts on Ubuntu

[CaptainTux]

Just wanted some community thoughts on this. These are comments made when people have pointed out Shuttleworth's refusal to sign with MS.


Linux hasn't grown much at all in the last few years on the desktop. Ubuntu basically canibalized the other Linux distors, not Microsoft. Ubuntu has flatlined the last year. For Linux to grown on the desktop it will need BUSINESS thinking, IMHO.

Kevin
http://forum.freespire.org/showpost.php?p=65738&postcount=3

and....


I had phone calls with both Eric and Mark soon after the announcement. I'll leave it up to them in how they may or may not choose to comment publicly on our announcement. I do know Mark has commented in his blog that he wouldn't do any type of patent deal with Microsoft, but that he's open to working with them in other ways (interop, etc.). Not sure how realistic that is, however. When you work with competing companies on partnerships, you need to be willing to meet halfway. By Linspire at least making the OPTION available for our users to work more closely with Microsoft, it gives an incentive for Microsoft, in return, to work with us.

Kevin
http://forum.freespire.org/showpost.php?p=65300&postcount=10

The second is not as worthy of note as the cannibalization crack, but I thought I would share the thoughts of your new valued technology partner and "brother" is open source.

Cheers

[Bachstelze]

Call me old-fashioned but "Business" is still a word that makes me very uncomfortable when it comes to Free Software. I have the greatest antipathy towards commercial distros like Mandriva or Linspire.

[Adamant1988]

Just wanted some community thoughts on this. These are comments made when people have pointed out Shuttleworth's refusal to sign with MS.


http://forum.freespire.org/showpost.php?p=65738&postcount=3

and....


http://forum.freespire.org/showpost.php?p=65300&postcount=10

The second is not as worthy of note as the cannibalization crack, but I thought I would share the thoughts of your new valued technology partner and "brother" is open source.

Cheers

Fortunately for everyone the meaning of "valued" is subjective. He's correct on some points, mostly that a business mind will take Linux further because the community knows nothing about marketing.

[reyfer]

So the owner of a company that took the concept behind Synaptic, changed some things, added a propietary layer, and started charging for the "privilege" to update and upgrade, plus selling closed source and propietary software through that channel (the CNR so loved by some here, I still don't know why), that person is saying that Ubuntu "canibalized" the other Linux distros? :-k:^o:^o](*,)=D>

[CaptainTux]

I am typing my posts on an Ubuntu Dell Laptop right now. I am having a hard time believing that business savvy was not required for me to have this laptop with Ubuntu pre installed. I would also like to know how Ubuntu cannibalized other Linux distros?

HymnToLife, business itself is not bad, even RMS gives blessing to forming a business model around supporting free software, but I get where you are coming from and respect it. :)

[slimdog360]

Who the hell is Kevin Carmony?

[Bachstelze]

HymnToLife, business itself is not bad, even RMS gives blessing to forming a business model around supporting free software, but I get where you are coming from and respect it. :)

Business itself is not bad indeed, people who do it are. All those people want is to make $$$, they don't care about all the ideals behind Free Software at all and if they could make the others distro die, they'd do it without hesitation. We really don't need that kind of sharks in the Free Software world.

[CaptainTux]

Who the hell is Kevin Carmony?

Head of Linspire.

[maddog39]

This is just rediculous. We should submit these things to alot of the podcasts so they get more heat for this. "Business" is not something we want in open source, period... Its called FREE SOFTWARE for a REASON. As in you DONT make money from it, what do you think microsoft is doing? Exactly that!

[jrusso2]

I really don't think there was anything wrong with what Kevin Carmony did except for the patent agreement. He has no right to make an agreement like this since it does not cover all linux users.

I don't care what deals make to add interoperability stuff to linux.

And I think Mr Shuttleworth makes this point also.

But for some reason people like Kevin Carmony think of whats in their best interest. Not the interest of Linux or the Linux community.

[steven8]

Oh boy. Now KC is taking shots at Ubuntu? Canibalized? Flatlined? What the heck is he thinking? Having a business mind is one thing, but giving in to unwarranted threats is not acceptable practice. If he can't respect Mark for that, then screw him. I have always respected KC until these recent events.

I hope Mark cuts ties and drops the CNR deal.

[Adamant1988]

This is just rediculous. We should submit these things to alot of the podcasts so they get more heat for this. "Business" is not something we want in open source, period... Its called FREE SOFTWARE for a REASON. As in you DONT make money from it, what do you think microsoft is doing? Exactly that!

Uhm, you're really naive aren't you? You DO know that the FSF (RMS's organization) is charging a ridiculous amount of money ($5,000+) for custom compiled versions of FREE SOFTWARE, right?

[ThinkBuntu]

This is just rediculous. We should submit these things to alot of the podcasts so they get more heat for this. "Business" is not something we want in open source, period... Its called FREE SOFTWARE for a REASON. As in you DONT make money from it, what do you think microsoft is doing? Exactly that!
Your understanding of why it's called Free Software is wrong. It's called that because the source code is available to view and modify.

[Bachstelze]

Uhm, you're really naive aren't you? You DO know that the FSF (RMS's organization) is charging a ridiculous amount of money ($5,000+) for custom compiled versions of FREE SOFTWARE, right?

It's different. You can download all the GNU software for free if you want. People who pay for it do it to support the project, which is a very good thing, not because the software is available only to paying members like some editions of MAndriva or Linspire are.

[steven8]

This is just rediculous. We should submit these things to alot of the podcasts so they get more heat for this. "Business" is not something we want in open source, period... Its called FREE SOFTWARE for a REASON. As in you DONT make money from it, what do you think microsoft is doing? Exactly that!

The first F in FSF does NOT mean free as in price, but free as in freedom. Freedom to use software as you wish. RMS and the FSF are not against folks making money, they just want the people who pay for something to have the right to use it as they wish.

[Adamant1988]

Oh boy. Now KC is taking shots at Ubuntu? Canibalized? Flatlined? What the heck is he thinking? Having a business mind is one thing, but giving in to unwarranted threats is not acceptable practice. If he can't respect Mark for that, then screw him. I have always respected KC until these recent events.

I hope Mark cuts ties and drops the CNR deal.

I'm not sure what he means by Canibalized, but I do know what he means by flat-lined. Ubuntu has hit a plateu, of sorts. It's amazing growth is slowing down and leveling out. However, Ubuntu has only canibalized other distributions in the sense that it overshadowed them... Fedora, Debian, and openSuSE deserve a lot more praise than Ubuntu, IMO. Very little has been done on the Ubuntu side to bring new things to the user, IMO.

[Bachstelze]

Debian deserving more praise than Ubuntu, that's for sure. Fedora or SuSE ? C'mon, have you actually used them ? They're horrible, and they did not bring anything new to anyone, either.

[Adamant1988]

Debian deserving more praise than Ubuntu, that's for sure. Fedora or SuSE ? C'mon, have you actually used them ? They're horrible, and they did not bring anything new to anyone, either.

openSuSE's developers completely re-wrote an entire package manager between releases in order to fix issues with it. They have developed wonderful UI enhancments, and offer the single best system configuration tool I've ever used.

Fedora is a rapid developing distribution that brings a lot of new things under the hood, they're one of the innovator distributions. While they don't bring as much to the forefront that I care about, Fedora's changes to Linux are often pretty substantial for Red Hat's clients.

What has Ubuntu offered that is truly NEW? What Ubuntu offered was easy availability of software and codecs through it's repos, and tools to get to those things. Past that Ubuntu relies on other distributions to do the heavy lifting, in terms of innovating. I'm not saying Ubuntu is a leech, it seems to have a symbiotic relationship with Debian now, but Ubuntu users really can't look forward to exciting new technological innovations from Canonical because Canonical is busy waiting for someone else to make them.

[ThinkBuntu]

I'm not sure what he means by Canibalized, but I do know what he means by flat-lined. Ubuntu has hit a plateu, of sorts. It's amazing growth is slowing down and leveling out. However, Ubuntu has only canibalized other distributions in the sense that it overshadowed them... Fedora, Debian, and openSuSE deserve a lot more praise than Ubuntu, IMO. Very little has been done on the Ubuntu side to bring new things to the user, IMO.
Ubuntu hasn't flatlined or hit a plateau, and it's making serious progress. The Dell deal? Making it to the top of many, many tech blogs, and even into mainstream computing magazines and the mainstream (non-computing) news, in many cases? I think that Ubuntu's really gathered momentum, and that with its warchest of developers, it's ready to take that next step to become a Linux juggernaut not just in popularity, but in importance to the world of Linux. That being said, to this point, it HAS cannibalized other distros, just as the vast majority of distros have. There are very few that are based on themselves (Slackware, Debian, Gentoo, Mandriva, SUSE, Pardus, and RHEL come to mind, in addition to the numerous specialty distros like DSL).

But this guy's just a windbag. He thinks that Linux needs a business sense (apparently Shuttleworth just magically discovered a billion bucks) to make it to the next level, when in reality Linux has proven itself to be a very tough business model, as witnessed by Mandriva's financial troubles.

[Adamant1988]

Ubuntu hasn't flatlined or hit a plateau, and it's making serious progress. The Dell deal? Making it to the top of many, many tech blogs, and even into mainstream computing magazines and the mainstream (non-computing) news, in many cases? I think that Ubuntu's really gathered momentum, and that with its warchest of developers, it's ready to take that next step to become a Linux juggernaut not just in popularity, but in importance to the world of Linux. That being said, to this point, it HAS cannibalized other distros, just as the vast majority of distros have. There are very few that are based on themselves (Slackware, Debian, Gentoo, Mandriva, SUSE, Pardus, and RHEL come to mind, in addition to the numerous specialty distros like DSL).

But this guy's just a windbag. He thinks that Linux needs a business sense (apparently Shuttleworth just magically discovered a billion bucks) to make it to the next level, when in reality Linux has proven itself to be a very tough business model, as witnessed by Mandriva's financial troubles.

I really wish I had the growth charts for Ubuntu. Ubuntu has hit that plateau which is why the Dell deal happened. Also, the Dell deal didn't bring in tons of new users, it brought in the same users... again. Also, Ubuntu doesn't have a 'warchest of developers', if that was true we would be seeing more 'great features' than the addition of 1 or 2 helper programs written in python.

Also, Linux is tough for conventional models because it's difficult to sell it right now. Why buy when someone else has made it available for free? There is a sweetspot for Linux and Red Hat has found that sweet spot. Subscription services. Find something that the users want, and let them subscribe to it. You'll make more than you would have otherwise.

[Bachstelze]

Ubuntu (and Linux in genrl) did hit a plateau indeed, but that was predictable. Pretty much all the users that are interested enough in it have made the switch. Now remain the others, the ones that are so fond of their ******* that they won't leave it unless we give them a free *******,which will take a while. The question is, do we want that ? I personnally don't. Because so many people just want everyone to use Linux, it is becoming more and more Windows-like, and the attitude of the community doesn't help. This is precisely why I have switched to BSD for all my day-to-day and server uses, and I'm certainly not switching back.

[steven8]

That's just it. Ubuntu does everything I need it to do, so I don't go looking for it to give me new stuff. I'm happy and content.

I don't believe Ubuntu Devs are just sitting with their thumbs up the **** waiting for others to do stuff. I'm on the Dev mailing list, and there is always something going on.

[ThinkBuntu]

I really wish I had the growth charts for Ubuntu. Ubuntu has hit that plateau which is why the Dell deal happened. Also, the Dell deal didn't bring in tons of new users, it brought in the same users... again. Also, Ubuntu doesn't have a 'warchest of developers', if that was true we would be seeing more 'great features' than the addition of 1 or 2 helper programs written in python.

Also, Linux is tough for conventional models because it's difficult to sell it right now. Why buy when someone else has made it available for free? There is a sweetspot for Linux and Red Hat has found that sweet spot. Subscription services. Find something that the users want, and let them subscribe to it. You'll make more than you would have otherwise.
Gains in an OS are not just made at the obvious front-lines of package management or the base system. I have no sources to back this up, but I'd be very willing to bet that Ubuntu developers are contributing heavily to many key Ubuntu components, specifically through GNOME-related development.

[Bachstelze]

I don't believe Ubuntu Devs are just sitting with their thumbs up the **** waiting for others to do stuff. I'm on the Dev mailing list, and there is always something going on.

Yep, some people seem to think that making a distro is just about downloading some source code, compiling it, packaging it into DEB and burining a bunch of DEB files on a CD :p

[Adamant1988]

Gains in an OS are not just made at the obvious front-lines of package management or the base system. I have no sources to back this up, but I'd be very willing to bet that Ubuntu developers are contributing heavily to many key Ubuntu components, specifically through GNOME-related development.

Oh, I bet that Ubuntu does a LOT of bug/security fixes and contributes them back. That was one of the reasons that Linspire chose to use Ubuntu, if I recall correctly. But, Ubuntu does not exactly have a massive development force, they can't do everything. It's usually bug-fixes and then whatever they have time/space left to do in terms of additions to the OS (This usually comes in the form of things like "restricted-manager" etc.)

[ThinkBuntu]

Oh, I bet that Ubuntu does a LOT of bug/security fixes and contributes them back. That was one of the reasons that Linspire chose to use Ubuntu, if I recall correctly. But, Ubuntu does not exactly have a massive development force, they can't do everything. It's usually bug-fixes and then whatever they have time/space left to do in terms of additions to the OS (This usually comes in the form of things like "restricted-manager" etc.)
So you think that, beyond bugs, Ubuntu doesn't have a hand in Rhythmbox? Nautilus? Even F-Spot? I doubt that.

[Adamant1988]

So you think that, beyond bugs, Ubuntu doesn't have a hand in Rhythmbox? Nautilus? Even F-Spot? I doubt that.

If you would like to show commits or something else to back up that argument then you can. I'm maintaining that Ubuntu can't develop new and interesting things and is delegated to 'helping out' as much as the limited development force will allow.

I'm not insulting Ubuntu or anything, I'm just saying there are obvious limits to the amount of manpower behind this distribution, while other distributions are more nimble and active in the development process. It's not that Ubuntu does nothing it's that other distros do more.

If Ubuntu has actually canibalized distributions it would have a more significant development force, and be able to do more.

[Macintosh Sauce]

Who the hell is Kevin Carmony?
He is the Lord of all Linux.:roll:

[KiwiNZ]

...I'm maintaining that Ubuntu can't develop new and interesting things and is delegated to 'helping out' as much as the limited development force will allow.

It's not that Ubuntu does nothing it's that other distros do more.

Care to back that up with facts and examples.

[Adamant1988]

Care to back that up with facts and examples.

I can say what I'm saying from my conversations with people inside and around the developers. I know that these individuals aren't lying to me to intentionally underestimate Ubuntu's ability to develop. If you would like to show me that I'm wrong, you're more than welcome to.

But I feel confident that Ubuntu isn't maintaining a large portion of the kernel like another distribution I can name, and isn't maintaining a large portion of Gnome like another distro I can name. I feel certain that Ubuntu could not re-write a package manager between releases, and I also feel certain that Ubuntu's stance on integrating new technology (SELinux) is to wait for Debian to do it.

I think what I said is being taken out of context. Like I said, other distributions are just more active in the development process because they've got the developers to be able to do that. Ubuntu doesn't have a large enough developer force to start canibalizing other distributions, and I stand by that. I think the resources are used the best they possibly can be, and maybe in the future Ubuntu will be maintaining 25% of the kernel, and GNOME, and KDE, etc.

But no, I have no written proof of this anywhere, because I trust when I get information from people from the dev side of things.

[KiwiNZ]

I can say what I'm saying from my conversations with people inside and around the developers. I know that these individuals aren't lying to me to intentionally underestimate Ubuntu's ability to develop. If you would like to show me that I'm wrong, you're more than welcome to.

But I feel confident that Ubuntu isn't maintaining a large portion of the kernel like another distribution I can name, and isn't maintaining a large portion of Gnome like another distro I can name. I feel certain that Ubuntu could not re-write a package manager between releases, and I also feel certain that Ubuntu's stance on integrating new technology (SELinux) is to wait for Debian to do it.

I think what I said is being taken out of context. Like I said, other distributions are just more active in the development process because they've got the developers to be able to do that. Ubuntu doesn't have a large enough developer force to start canibalizing other distributions, and I stand by that. I think the resources are used the best they possibly can be, and maybe in the future Ubuntu will be maintaining 25% of the kernel, and GNOME, and KDE, etc.

But no, I have no written proof of this anywhere, because I trust when I get information from people from the dev side of things.

Hearsay is not evidence. Unsubstantiated comments are risky , and can be see as adding to "FUD". One should always exercise caution or one could be called to account.

[Adamant1988]

Hearsay is not evidence. Unsubstantiated comments are risky , and can be see as adding to "FUD". One should always exercise caution or one could be called to account.

I fail to see how I'm adding to FUD. I'm saying that in terms of it's development force Ubuntu isn't capable of doing as much as Fedora, openSuSE, or Debian. Arguably, pulling from Debian Sid, Ubuntu really wouldn't need to do much because Sid is always up to date. Ubuntu is in a good spot for the development power it has.

But no Kiwinz, you're right. I'm deliberately painting a picture of Ubuntu designed to create a panic amongst the ranks and send users fleeing to other distributions. In reality, Ubuntu maintains the vast majority of the kernel, and GNOME is practically a subset of the Ubuntu project.

[bikeboy]

Have a look at the blueprints for Upstart, BulletproofX, Sane disk full handling and whatever else is on launchpad, I believe they are projects which are more in-house than upstream. Ubuntu's dev contributions seem to be diverse and highly valuable, hopefully you can see some of their fruits in Gutsy alphas over the coming weeks.

[Adamant1988]

Have a look at the blueprints for Upstart, BulletproofX, Sane disk full handling and whatever else is on launchpad, I believe they are projects which are more in-house than upstream. Ubuntu's dev contributions seem to be diverse and highly valuable, hopefully you can see some of their fruits in Gutsy alphas over the coming weeks.

Bullet proof X was SUPPOSED to be in Feisty. Can't help but wonder why it didn't make it.

[KiwiNZ]

I fail to see how I'm adding to FUD. I'm saying that in terms of it's development force Ubuntu isn't capable of doing as much as Fedora, openSuSE, or Debian. Arguably, pulling from Debian Sid, Ubuntu really wouldn't need to do much because Sid is always up to date. Ubuntu is in a good spot for the development power it has.

But no Kiwinz, you're right. I'm deliberately painting a picture of Ubuntu designed to create a panic amongst the ranks and send users fleeing to other distributions. In reality, Ubuntu maintains the vast majority of the kernel, and GNOME is practically a subset of the Ubuntu project.

To say that Ubuntu is not contributing is an afront to many Developers, Partners etc working very hard and contrubuting in all areas.
I suggest you do some research , www.ubuntu.com (http://www.ubuntu.com) would be a good start. Look at the bounties offered and the bounties already given and lookat the developer areas .

[Ripfox]

Business itself is not bad indeed, people who do it are.

I do lots of buisness involving Ubuntu and open source software. I help people get set up with free customizable desktops and they help me with money to buy food. Am I a bad person, Hymn? :p

[BigSilly]

I don't understand Carmony's approach to "Windows interoperability". To what extent will Linspire in the future just become an offshoot of the Windows desktop, but one that "just doesn't work" in the same way. He could really be harming the future of his business surely, if Linspire is sold on the idea that it works the same way as Windows. Many people are going to be plenty pissed off if they buy Linspire only to find it doesn't work like Windows, and doesn't work with Windows programs etc. This will surely harm Linspire irreparably

Linux has to be Linux, not Windows. I've seen the statistic that's being bandied around, that Linux only has 1.25% of the desktop market, and I simply don't believe it. Many are making the move to Ubuntu because it is a wonderful experience in it's own right, not because it's some second rate XP knock-off. 1.25% doesn't scare Bill enough to warrant all this ****-waving over patents. There are more users switching to Linux than ever before, because it has grown into it's own animal. The truth is worrying MS into these actions, not this oft-touted 1.25%.

[starcraft.man]

*Wonders in silence to himself why so many people care one iotta about Carmony's remarks/opinions. Then wonders the point of the whole cannibalization argument that ensued for several pages since it got no where and proved nothing. Goes back to working on his Ubuntu desktop/answering questions before he gets dragged into argument that won't go anywhere. Knows he has better things to do...*

[ThinkBuntu]

Oh, and let's not forget about Carmony's cunning mind (http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20060904#freespire) when it comes to promoting his OS.

[23meg]

*Wonders in silence to himself why so many people care one iotta about Carmony's remarks/opinions.

Same here.

[23meg]

Bullet proof X was SUPPOSED to be in Feisty. Can't help but wonder why it didn't make it.

Because the Xorg release arrived too late. Specs getting deferred is a natural part of the time based release model (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases).

[jiminycricket]

Now he accuses other distros of "high brow software piracy". I think he must be getting his PR talking point from Waggener Edstrom. How disgusting. How about Linspire's own subversion of the GPL? Copyright infringement, anyone?

Guess he didn't know that software patents aren't global, if that's what he's referring to, and the SCOTUS have taken a dim view of them recently.


The Moral High Gr (http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=49)ound

Lastly...some distributions have come out, claiming to be taking the "morale high ground" by refusing to give into "Microsoft threats," while openly promoting the means of circumventing proprietary software on their web sites, amounting to nothing more than high-brow software piracy.
Some are claiming anti-Microsoft sentiment in regards to our recent announcement, but I don't see them licensing or respecting the IP from many others, not just Microsoft. That's not how I define the "moral high ground."

Clearly these distributions must have demand for these proprietary technologies, because several tools exist which are promoted on their sites to provide illegal copies of software, drivers and codecs. They offer disclaimers about the laws in certain countries, yet they must know that many of their customers are using the information from within those countires. This portrays more of an attitude of how to "get around" the law, rather than trying to live within it. For me, the true high ground is what Linspire has been doing from the beginning, by respecting the law and openly licensing proprietary software so that we can legally re-distribute that software to the end user if they so choose.


For Linux to be taken seriously by the mainstream distribution channels and enterprise customers, it needs to respect the IP of others. I’m quite sure Linspire has done more than just about any other Linux distributor to license patents, copyrights and trademarks so we can bring the best of open source and proprietary offerings to our customers. I believe this practice will mean something as Linux moves beyond the early adopters to mainstream channels. I want our users to have confidence when they use Linspire Linux, knowing that it has crossed the t's and dotted the i's, and is a fully legal and supported product. Microsoft is just one of the dozens of companies we have entered into agreements with to deliver on that promise.

I'm fine with others who may disagree with Linspire's decision to enter into such licensing deals, but I do take issue with anyone spinning it that Linspire is somehow not taking the high ground.

[use a name]

Without reading the whole thread (so someone may have said this):

It's a good thing there is diversity. If Linspire is on the right track, we will notice in the future. If not, we will forget. Some have tried, all will see the benefits, if any.

[saulgoode]

Mr Carmony wrote:

Clearly these distributions must have demand for these proprietary technologies, because several tools exist which are promoted on their sites to provide illegal copies of software, drivers and codecs. They offer disclaimers about the laws in certain countries, yet they must know that many of their customers are using the information from within those countires. This portrays more of an attitude of how to "get around" the law, rather than trying to live within it. For me, the true high ground is what Linspire has been doing from the beginning, by respecting the law and openly licensing proprietary software so that we can legally re-distribute that software to the end user if they so choose.

Clearly Mr Carmony is insulting the veracity of millions of Linux users. The illegality of open source codecs has never been established even in countries which fully recognize software patents. It is reprehensible that Mr Carmony would label all Linux users as criminals before there have been any legal proceedings substantiating such an accusation.

Mr Carmony has chosen to embrace the marketing tactics of Steve Balmer, making vague allegations and offering nothing of substance to back his claims. Like Balmer, Carmony is employing business practices that are an embarrassment to himself, his employees, and even his customers.

[DigitalDuality]

d

[jiminycricket]

This reminds me of the sad story of Caldera OpenLinux...

Caldera bought The Santa Cruz Operation, renamed themselves SCO and killed their Linux distro (well even then there's controversy because they kept distributing it after repudiating the GPL and selling SCOSource).

Then they tried to sue the pants off of IBM.

Perhaps Carmony knows that his business is now dead after signing with MS b/c of GPLv3, unless he changes the patent agreement, about which I'm not sure MS will be receptive. FUD regardless.

[deanlinkous]

Clearly Mr Carmony is insulting the veracity of millions of Linux users. The illegality of open source codecs has never been established even in countries which fully recognize software patents. It is reprehensible that Mr Carmony would label all Linux users as criminals before there have been any legal proceedings substantiating such an accusation.



Clearly! He has to do that, the whole business is based around selling *legal* this and *legal* that and *paid for* this and *paid for* that. SOOoooo they throw that *legal* word around like candy, and convince users that it is somehow important. Between that and the dangling carrot of a *perfect* linux if you wait for the next version...(renew your membership)..no the next version......no the next version....(renew your membership)....etc,,, They actually have a good thing going - as far as squeezing money from new users but there aren't enough new users to make it profitable. So now it is more of a focus on CNR and *legal* and *proprietary* and *choice* for now while also offering snarky comments about other distros of course....sounds like someone is jealous to me.

[deanlinkous]

from my conversations with people inside and around the developers.

...snip....

because I trust when I get information from people from the dev side of things.

Who would these "people inside and around the devlopers" and "people from the dev side of things" be anyway? Maybe we could chit-chat with them instead of getting it second hand? ;)

[forrestcupp]

If the Linux Kernel remains with GPL 2, there won't be any problem for them, will there? All they have to do is not distribute out of the box anything under v.3. Just like how Ubuntu doesn't include non-free stuff, but it's still easily available to download and install.

[dca]

It makes me wonder how Linspire (Carmony, the company) make any money at all??? I mean their business model isn't as structured and secure as, say, RedHat. RedHat maintains a community to test their beta vers (Fedora), they rebuild it once complete keeping the best bits, fix the rest of the bits, release the total solution, and then sell support for it. Which of course beats the pants off MS with the pay a TON of schmeckels for the Server OS, charge the pants off the client for CALS, accepting each execs first born as payment quarterly for licensing, etc! What does Carmony do? You think with a failing business, no real customers that I can see, quite a few employess, that the business wouldn't last a single business quarter!

Maybe they're a front? I smell a conspiracy theory...

[jiminycricket]

If the Linux Kernel remains with GPL 2, there won't be any problem for them, will there? All they have to do is not distribute out of the box anything under v.3. Just like how Ubuntu doesn't include non-free stuff, but it's still easily available to download and install.

The free software world works with co-operation, it's like an ecosystem...Linspire will be a dead end distro because things like Samba and all the things the FSF has copyrights (GCC, coreutils, glib) on will be GPLv3. Even the Linux kernel needs the new features that future GPLv3 GCC versions will supply.

Maybe they can make a run with BSD.

[MetalMusicAddict]

Adamant1988, man. I'm really surprised at you. I would have like to have thought after our chat that you would have had a little more respect and objectiveness in your thinking. I really can't go into all the simply incorrect things you've said in this thread. I will however give 2 more solid, major ways Ubuntu has contributed. Upstart (http://upstart.ubuntu.com) and Ubiquity.

Adam. In the end, don't believe hearsay. Go to the horses mouth. All of the guys who develop Ubuntu can be found online. Even Mark.

[dptxp]

I wasted 1 CD when I burned Freespire into a CD a couple of months back.

[forrestcupp]

The free software world works with co-operation, it's like an ecosystem...Linspire will be a dead end distro because things like Samba and all the things the FSF has copyrights (GCC, coreutils, glib) on will be GPLv3. Even the Linux kernel needs the new features that future GPLv3 GCC versions will supply.

Maybe they can make a run with BSD.

All I'm saying is, they became big somehow. They didn't dig their own grave. Just because people don't like what they did and want them to die doesn't mean they will. They will figure out a way to make it through.

It's restrictive things like this that make me not like GPLv3.

[deanlinkous]

yea, darn them restricting the taking of free software and thru patent deals making it essentially non-free....

How dare the FSF try to protect software freedoms for software covered under their license.

Shame on them...

[vexorian]

sorry but I have absolutely no respect for any Linux distributor that would make such ridiculous patent agreements with MS, even if it was not their intention they are just feeding MS' FUD machine, and they are doing the most absurd think they could do, how much of you would think paying your own competitor for each of your sales is a great way of doing bussiness ?


In my computer:
before upstart Linux takes 3 times as much time to boot than windows
After upstart: Linux takes 5 seconds less than windows.

Before upstart I thought Linux's slow boot was its worst flaw.

[malspa]

I just can't take anything seriously that Carmony says. Linspire was my first Linux and there were things that I really didn't like. I don't know how they're doing these days, but I think one thing that really says a lot about them is that they were charging users a subscription fee to use their anti-virus application.

Linspire's focus was/is on new Linux users coming over from Windows. In my opinion, they were taking advantage of that and selling people anti-virus protection. Of course they didn't point out that it's not needed for Linux, or that there are free anti-virus applications for those Linux users who want it.

That's just being shady, IMHO. I don't trust Linspire or Carmony and I didn't trust Michael Robertson, and I would NEVER, EVER recommend Linspire to anyone.

[DC@DR]

But I'm really concerned now how Canonical is getting revenue, since the Linux desktop market is still very tiny compared to Windows, and Redhat is holding almost Linux server market. I don't know how long Mr. Shuttleworth could continue to support Canonical right off his pocket, but to me it doesn't seem very long. :-(. I do hope Google or Oracle will come up and back up Ubuntu after that, since it's the best darling of Linux community nowadays....

[jiminycricket]

All I'm saying is, they became big somehow. They didn't dig their own grave. Just because people don't like what they did and want them to die doesn't mean they will. They will figure out a way to make it through.


Yeah, hopefully with other people's code this time. Good luck with that Linspire.

The GPL is not "restrictive", or else there wouldn't be 10000 Linux distros. Copyright is what's restrictive.

[dca]

But I'm really concerned now how Canonical is getting revenue, since the Linux desktop market is still very tiny compared to Windows, and Redhat is holding almost Linux server market. I don't know how long Mr. Shuttleworth could continue to support Canonical right off his pocket, but to me it doesn't seem very long. :-(. I do hope Google or Oracle will come up and back up Ubuntu after that, since it's the best darling of Linux community nowadays....

That's easy. Indeed, RedHat has a HUGE share in the US but all things considered, once you tackle the desktop side (exposure) as Canonical it's only a matter of time before enterprises start installing it in their data centers. As said time and again Canonical truly puts its money where its mouth is. RedHat cannot be obtained w/o purchasing a single-server support contract for say $2500/yr. All Ubuntu vers are available for free, the same LTS vers is the same LTS vers. You don't pay for RedHat support, then it looks like you're stuck w/ Fedora which I probably wouldn't run on any mission critical server.

[koenn]

Adamant1988, man. I'm really surprised at you. I would have like to have thought after our chat that you would have had a little more respect and objectiveness in your thinking. I really can't go into all the simply incorrect things you've said in this thread. I will however give 2 more solid, major ways Ubuntu has contributed. Upstart (http://upstart.ubuntu.com) and Ubiquity.
I think Adamant1988 has a point. Ok, Upstart and Ubiquity are Ubuntu initiatives. There may be some more. Other than that, Ubuntu developers seem to focus on ubuntufiying a selection of debian packages. I'm sure that in itself is quite a job, and I'm happy for it as I'm an Ubuntu user myself, but the fact remains that the bulk of the work is done by Debian, and the fixes/patches that might flow back from Ubuntu to Debian are usually too ubuntu-specific to be of any use for Debian.

However, and back on topic : When KC said
Ubuntu basically canibalized the other Linux distors, not Microsoft., I think he was talking users, not software packages / development effort.The way I read that, he claims that Ubuntu's succes has drawn users from other distro's, not from Microsoft Windows.
I wonder if that's true, and where's the data to back that up.

[juxtaposed]

Now he accuses other distros of "high brow software piracy". I think he must be getting his PR talking point from Waggener Edstrom. How disgusting. How about Linspire's own subversion of the GPL? Copyright infringement, anyone?

Guess he didn't know that software patents aren't global, if that's what he's referring to, and the SCOTUS have taken a dim view of them recently.

Wow. I used to have respect for him after he came on these forums and explained selling openoffice.

No more however.

[ezsit]

Its called FREE SOFTWARE for a REASON. As in you DONT make money from it

Some brilliant mind came up with this one back on page one of this thread. This person has NO CLUE about the GPL! If you read the GPL, the license gives anyone the ability to charge for open source software. That is correct. You, me, every company, everyone. The GPL encourages people to sell their open source software. All the GPL requires is that the source code be made available to the recipient of the binaries. That is all. The source code does not even have to be made public! However, any recipient of the binaries who receives the source code can turn around and make the source code freely available.

Linspire, no matter what you think of their current leadership and Microsoft deal, had every right to create CNR and charge for access. I support their move to do so. People who think Linspire is charging for free software are stupid. Linspire is (was) charging for the convenience of making installation of free software easier and more accessible to the masses. That is all. Linspire was also charging for the licensing of proprietary software (DVD and MP3 support).

I think young people who just find out about open source software and the GPL have very little understanding of the history and culture. Free software is great since you normally do not have to pay for it, but paying for it is fine too.

[dca]

Exactly, hence, the TiVoization dealie.

You can take GNU/Linux and make something brilliant out of it, make money from it, sell support for it, HOWEVER (and this is according to the GPL), it must remain open, and you must give it back in a sense. Meaining I should still be able to view how you did it, etc...

[racoq]

I fail to see how I'm adding to FUD. I'm saying that in terms of it's development force Ubuntu isn't capable of doing as much as Fedora, openSuSE, or Debian. Arguably, pulling from Debian Sid, Ubuntu really wouldn't need to do much because Sid is always up to date. Ubuntu is in a good spot for the development power it has.

But no Kiwinz, you're right. I'm deliberately painting a picture of Ubuntu designed to create a panic amongst the ranks and send users fleeing to other distributions. In reality, Ubuntu maintains the vast majority of the kernel, and GNOME is practically a subset of the Ubuntu project.


First - The irony in the last paragraph, was not needed here...

Ubuntu does not hide, and many times affirmed that, the foundation of it, is Debian. So why should the devs pointless innovate many great packages that already exist in Debian.

So you do think that ubuntu haven't did, and its practically a bleeding edge debian right?

Wrong...

Have you tried picking all the debs made for made for debian and run it on Ubuntu?

Surely you will see that some will not be compatible, because the devs that you say aren't innovating changed the deb infrastructure, correcting some of its flaws, in order to enhance user experience.

And ubuntu as opposed to some RPM based distros don't need a laming graphical package manager , because we have the best that is , Synaptic.

Thats one of other examples i could give. Want another? Usability

No other distro is as easy to use as ubuntu, the devs work hard to build tools to ease user interaction with the system => see the restricted drivers manager, desktop effects, automatic UI for installing restricted drivers, all of those at a distance of a click.

Shall i go on?

your points were unfortunate and unfair to the developers.

I advise you to take a look at the blueprints section of launchpad

here:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty
and here:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy

Finally if you are not satisfied with ubuntu there other distros that u can pick.

[vexorian]

The Moral High Ground

Lastly...some distributions have come out, claiming to be taking the "morale high ground" by refusing to give into "Microsoft threats," while openly promoting the means of circumventing proprietary software on their web sites, amounting to nothing more than high-brow software piracy.
We should probably add an anti moron clause to the GPL to prevent morons from distributing GPLed software, who knows, maybe for GPL4...


For Linux to be taken seriously by the mainstream distribution channels and enterprise customers, it needs to respect the IP of others Seriously, moron clause please. This guy has just accepted to the public that MS' patent FUD is the truth! If anyone else didn't believe that these patent agreements were harmful: there's the evidence!

It looks more and more that some Linux distros are becoming MS' b*****s (I guess maybe censoring was appropriated) The only thing left to do is to stop being their users.

--
If these agreements were simply about anything else but patents It would be all right, and only senseless antiMS sentiment would be against them, but these distros helping MS spread FUD against the Linux community is simply wrong, it is an insult to all the OS developers and distributors.

[Adamant1988]

First - The irony in the last paragraph, was not needed here...
The sarcasm on my part was to make a point, and I think I did that effectively.





Surely you will see that some will not be compatible, because the devs that you say aren't innovating changed the deb infrastructure, correcting some of its flaws, in order to enhance user experience.
Surely, you're speaking out of your nether regions with this statement. A lot of the incompatibilities result because of naming schemes, etc. You do know that most times .deb files built for older versions of Ubuntu won't even run on newer ones.. right? It's not a feature.





No other distro is as easy to use as ubuntu, the devs work hard to build tools to ease user interaction with the system => see the restricted drivers manager, desktop effects, automatic UI for installing restricted drivers, all of those at a distance of a click.

Yeah, it's a lot more usable than not having to install them at all. Oh wait...


your points were unfortunate and unfair to the developers.

No, my points were valid. Ubuntu has a pretty limited development force right now, although that may be less true now than it was even a few months ago.



Finally if you are not satisfied with ubuntu there other distros that u can pick.

Actually, I'm satisfied with Ubuntu and I like it alot. It's currently the OS on my desktop (and it will remain so until I can get ahold of Vista). I still believe that other distributions deserve a lot more praise than they're getting, and that they would have that praise if not for Ubuntu.

[GMU_DodgyHodgy]

Just wanted some community thoughts on this. These are comments made when people have pointed out Shuttleworth's refusal to sign with MS.


http://forum.freespire.org/showpost.php?p=65738&postcount=3

and....


http://forum.freespire.org/showpost.php?p=65300&postcount=10

The second is not as worthy of note as the cannibalization crack, but I thought I would share the thoughts of your new valued technology partner and "brother" is open source.

Cheers

Captain Tux - I believe I read some of your posts on the Freespire boards when Linspire announced their deal with Microsoft. I am much in alignment with your point of view. If Microsoft wants to make certain codecs, fonts, or file formats available in the interest of interoperability that's fine. I don't mind having the choice of using or even paying a nominal price for those things if it makes my use of Linux richer or more diverse. In that scenario - I think it provides open choice. You can take it or leave it and it makes linux distros more appealing to business, government, and educational institutions which only helps the adoption, use, and support of open source software.

However, I think Linspire went to far when it signed up for patent protection. That makes an implicit statement that Linux has violated MS patents when its clear it has not.

[vexorian]

eah, it's a lot more usable than not having to install them at all. Oh wait...

I apprecieate you used the world "usable" cause it is true, some people will find an OS to be more usable if it didn't come with those lame proprietary codecs at all, but some might have to use them so getting them is VERY easy, to me it took so few time I didn't notice, although I am thinking that I should probably not install them next time, it is after all promoting BS.


Actually, I'm satisfied with Ubuntu and I like it alot. It's currently the OS on my desktop (and it will remain so until I can get ahold of Vista). I still believe that other distributions deserve a lot more praise than they're getting, and that they would have that praise if not for Ubuntu.

I don't see Ubuntu as robbing their praise, there are simply things they are not doing, and I don't think it is really Ubuntu to blame for them not doing those things (not like there aren't things some distros are doing correctly and Ubuntu isn't) But really I don't think ubuntu is the cause some distros are so underrated.

[racoq]

The sarcasm on my part was to make a point, and I think I did that effectively.
Surely, you're speaking out of your nether regions with this statement. A lot of the incompatibilities result because of naming schemes, etc. You do know that most times .deb files built for older versions of Ubuntu won't even run on newer ones.. right? It's not a feature.


Of course, new debs require new dependencies (recent package versions, etc..), thats why they are incompatible. I was referring why do you download a deb from an application for debian, which have the exact same requirements in both systems satisfied, and that package run in debian and not in ubuntu?

Because some limitations/bugs of the deb packages are addressed, and applied in ubuntu, and are latter submitted upstream on Debian, and debian some times dosn't commit them. This has been longed discussed on ubuntu and debian forums.

I call that a feature, improving packages infrastructure, if you don't...

There was a time a go when Ian Murdock was ahead of the Debian project, that he complained that the changes where so much to the package manegement (APT/DEB) that this turned debian and ubuntu incompatible in some issues

you should read more the news on the web...



As for Murdock's complaint about Ubuntu becoming so different from Debian so as to be incompatible, thats his own fault, Ubuntu improves upon the OS, and submits their patches to the Debian project, Murdock has a chip on his shoulder and doesn't want to merge them into Debian, so if the two diverge to the point where you have to compile software against Ubuntu separately, blame Debian, not Ubuntu, it's not like Ubuntu is trying to subvert and commandeer the entire DEB/APT installation system, it's that Debian just isn't keeping pace, if the Debian group would swallow their pride and merge more of the diffs, there wouldn't be the schism that there is.


Source

http://www0.epinions.com/content_4970291332 (http://www0.epinions.com/content_4970291332)

Ian Murdock comments on its blog to back it up

http://ianmurdock.com/?p=153 (http://ianmurdock.com/?p=153)

At least i speak with sources, care to share yours?

[koenn]

Source

http://www0.epinions.com/content_4970291332 (http://www0.epinions.com/content_4970291332)
At least i speak with sources, care to share yours?
So, you quote an opinion of some guy on some blog site. Impressive.

Here's an other one:

Even though the Ubuntu community is substantial and growing rapidly, it is still tiny compared to the total number of developers working on all the free software applications that make up the distribution itself. Our job is to package what is there, efficiently and cohesively ...
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth

[Adamant1988]

So, you quote an opinion of some guy on some blog site. Impressive.

Here's an other one:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth

Thank you.. I didn't know that that had come from Mark himself.

[koenn]

Thank you.. I didn't know that that had come from Mark himself. You're welcome.

[az]

No, my points were valid. Ubuntu has a pretty limited development force right now, although that may be less true now than it was even a few months ago.



When Warty came out, the number of Canonical developers who were working on the distro were in the single digits. By focusing on a small subset of Debian packages, they were able to get an impressive amount of work done. Ubuntu used GCC 3 first. Ubuntu did the work to port Xorg and leave Xfree. Upstart and Ubiquity were mentioned. The live cd infrastructure was developed in-house and they did not use anything from another distro (as they did in Warty). Most work done on the Debian installer itself since 2004 (Colin Watson) was pretty much developed on Ubuntu owing to the fact that Ubuntu has a short release cycle.

I could go on.

I think someone mentioned SElinux. SElinux has been around for years (think 2001). I am not knowledgeable about it, but I think you would have to do a lot of work upstream (as in everyting - every package's upstream) before anyone could be able to use it effectively.

Ian Murdock complained about how translations were handled in Ubuntu. That turned out to be a relatively minor hack which helped translations. It was a decision by the technical board which was headed by Matt Zimmerman. At the time, MDZ was the co-maintainer of apt for debian. I think the concern was that DDs were wondering how much the changes in Ubuntu were going to affect Debian, since Canonical had hired a number of key Debian Developers.

Suffice to say, both arguments are correct.

Canonical's distro team is small. They cannot tackle every problem. But since UBuntu is only a small subset of Debian, they are not meant to.

To their credit, the distro team have done a lot of innovating. They certainly do not sit back and wait for Debian to do stuff. In fact, because Ubuntu only focuses on a small (relative to Debian) number of packages, it is easier to undertake major changes.

[racoq]

When Warty came out, the number of Canonical developers who were working on the distro were in the single digits. By focusing on a small subset of Debian packages, they were able to get an impressive amount of work done. Ubuntu used GCC 3 first. Ubuntu did the work to port Xorg and leave Xfree. Upstart and Ubiquity were mentioned. The live cd infrastructure was developed in-house and they did not use anything from another distro (as they did in Warty). Most work done on the Debian installer itself since 2004 (Colin Watson) was pretty much developed on Ubuntu owing to the fact that Ubuntu has a short release cycle.

I could go on.

I think someone mentioned SElinux. SElinux has been around for years (think 2001). I am not knowledgeable about it, but I think you would have to do a lot of work upstream (as in everyting - every package's upstream) before anyone could be able to use it effectively.

Ian Murdock complained about how translations were handled in Ubuntu. That turned out to be a relatively minor hack which helped translations. It was a decision by the technical board which was headed by Matt Zimmerman. At the time, MDZ was the co-maintainer of apt for debian. I think the concern was that DDs were wondering how much the changes in Ubuntu were going to affect Debian, since Canonical had hired a number of key Debian Developers.

Suffice to say, both arguments are correct.

Canonical's distro team is small. They cannot tackle every problem. But since UBuntu is only a small subset of Debian, they are not meant to.

To their credit, the distro team have done a lot of innovating. They certainly do not sit back and wait for Debian to do stuff. In fact, because Ubuntu only focuses on a small (relative to Debian) number of packages, it is easier to undertake major changes.

thanks for clarifying, couldn't put things clearer myself

[jiminycricket]

However, I think Linspire went to far when it signed up for patent protection. That makes an implicit statement that Linux has violated MS patents when its clear it has not.

Microsoft seems to be tacking the patent deal onto all the deals they make these days. I've read that when Novell went to Microsoft (allegedly) in April 2006, they had no intention of making a patent deal concerning Linux. But then MS added it in at the last minute. Same with Samsung, Fuji-Xerox, and LGE.

Anyway, I enjoy [Boycott Novell] (http://boycottnovell.com/2007/06/28/linspire-sells-microsoft-fud/)'s take on this issue:


Finally, here’s just a quick word to Kevin: repackaging and selling packages that were coded (for free) by Debian developers is easy. Just don’t call them “pirates”. It won’t make you popular.

[Rhapsody]

The Moral High Ground (http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=49)

Lastly...some distributions have come out, claiming to be taking the "morale high ground" by refusing to give into "Microsoft threats," while openly promoting the means of circumventing proprietary software on their web sites, amounting to nothing more than high-brow software piracy.
Some are claiming anti-Microsoft sentiment in regards to our recent announcement, but I don't see them licensing or respecting the IP from many others, not just Microsoft. That's not how I define the "moral high ground."

Clearly these distributions must have demand for these proprietary technologies, because several tools exist which are promoted on their sites to provide illegal copies of software, drivers and codecs. They offer disclaimers about the laws in certain countries, yet they must know that many of their customers are using the information from within those countires. This portrays more of an attitude of how to "get around" the law, rather than trying to live within it. For me, the true high ground is what Linspire has been doing from the beginning, by respecting the law and openly licensing proprietary software so that we can legally re-distribute that software to the end user if they so choose.

For Linux to be taken seriously by the mainstream distribution channels and enterprise customers, it needs to respect the IP of others. I’m quite sure Linspire has done more than just about any other Linux distributor to license patents, copyrights and trademarks so we can bring the best of open source and proprietary offerings to our customers. I believe this practice will mean something as Linux moves beyond the early adopters to mainstream channels. I want our users to have confidence when they use Linspire Linux, knowing that it has crossed the t's and dotted the i's, and is a fully legal and supported product. Microsoft is just one of the dozens of companies we have entered into agreements with to deliver on that promise.

I'm fine with others who may disagree with Linspire's decision to enter into such licensing deals, but I do take issue with anyone spinning it that Linspire is somehow not taking the high ground.
I think the problem in this is one of false equivocation. Mr Carmony assumes that 'moral' and 'legal' are synonyms at all times and goes on to base his argument on this.

While legality and morality are frequently one and the same, I and many other free software advocates (Hi rms!) believe that software patents are not an example of this. Hence, the law is immoral, and there is no immorality in violating it. In fact, it could be considered a form of civil disobedience, with the intent of making the law impossible to enforce.

Respecting an immoral law simply validates it, making it harder to repeal in the future. I would consider this to be an immoral act in itself.

[23meg]

http://blog.nixternal.com/2007.06.28/those-are-choices/

[vexorian]

<3 boycott novell.


Linspire Sells Us Linux FUD, Not GNU/Linux

[CaptainTux]

I think the problem in this is one of false equivocation. Mr Carmony assumes that 'moral' and 'legal' are synonyms at all times and goes on to base his argument on this.

While legality and morality are frequently one and the same, I and many other free software advocates (Hi rms!) believe that software patents are not an example of this. Hence, the law is immoral, and there is no immorality in violating it. In fact, it could be considered a form of civil disobedience, with the intent of making the law impossible to enforce.

Respecting an immoral law simply validates it, making it harder to repeal in the future. I would consider this to be an immoral act in itself.

Carmony essentially called Ubuntu a bunch of high brow pirates and a whole mess of other distros as well. That said, I enjoy my role with a new avatar!

[thegnome87]

Carmony essentially called Ubuntu a bunch of high brow pirates and a whole mess of other distros as well. That said, I enjoy my role with a new avatar!

LOL awsome

I pretty much lost respect for the company (like someone else mentioned) ever since the whole selling OpenOffice controversy (by the way, they still sell it under the guise CompareOffice (http://www.comparesoft.com/compareoffice.html) [comparesoft.com], which is fine because there's no rule against selling oss, but shady since they fail to even give credit to OO.org.

Also if you go to Amazon.com and search for Linspire CNR edition one of the "top reviewers" is Kevin Carmony himself.

Who's worse, the high brow sea pirates or the desperate busineesman? It's too bad because I played with the *spires and like them.

Ahoy I say ;)

[CaptainTux]

I really see little difference between the concept of comparesoft and staroffice. However, this whole, microsoft will deliver a better linux and if you disagree with us you are splitting linux and a high brow pirate??? I would rather be a high brow pirate than catch scurvy on the SS Redmond.

[Bachstelze]

I would rather be a high brow pirate than catch scurvy on the SS Redmond.

Hey, Godwin's law :p

[CaptainTux]

Hey, Godwin's law :p
Nope. SS for sailing ship in the classical nautical meaning of the initials. Like the SS Titanic. Not to be confused with the ss of the Schutzstaffel. I will never invoke godwins law. ;)

[Fenryr]

This is just rediculous. We should submit these things to alot of the podcasts so they get more heat for this. "Business" is not something we want in open source, period... Its called FREE SOFTWARE for a REASON. As in you DONT make money from it, what do you think microsoft is doing? Exactly that!


Ok, colour me weird, but just what's WRONG with the idea of PROFITING from one's LABOURS? It's the current MODEL as practiced by Gates and others that I have a problem with, not the fact that they are tryin' to make a BUCK from it...Do YOU work for a living, or do you live in one of those countries where you're guarranteed a dole check even if you contribute NOTHING to society?

NO, the problem isn't PROFIT, as I said, it's the current BUSINESS MODEL...Micro$oft's 'crime' in my view isn't that they want to make money, it's that they want to make sure no one ELSE can make any.

If you don't let SOME form of 'business' into OSS, it will eventually hit the wall and fall flat on it's ***...You can only expect people (coders, artists, music people, administrators) to work for FREE for so long...Eventually they all have to EAT, and feed the kids, and all the other little things we have to do in REAL life...What's needed here is not the ELIMINATION of the profit motive (You might as well eliminate breathing), what's needed is to come up with an alternative model that people like YOU can live with...

Put another way, I've PAID $13US per month for the last 5 years to play Final Fantasy XI and will happily CONTINUE to do so...Since this is a 'subscription' game played in a persistent world, shared server environment, I don't imagine that this will change even if they DO port it over to Linux, as 'World of Warcraft' is rumoured to've done...Many services online would benefit from following the PORN industry and going to user-paid 'on demand' access to exclusive content, as I can see the MUSIC industry doing in the next couple years, and that the GAMING industry is ALREADY exploring...

[Frak]

Business itself is not bad indeed, people who do it are. All those people want is to make $$$, they don't care about all the ideals behind Free Software at all and if they could make the others distro die, they'd do it without hesitation. We really don't need that kind of sharks in the Free Software world.
This is why the GPL v.3 is going to be so strict.
Plus, I'm suprised Linspire still exsists.
Oh, but the improvements are very good. :)
............................
Evil,
But Good

[jiminycricket]

Free software -- "Free as in speech, not beer" :P

[PryGuy]

Cmon, it's obvious, Linspire tries to rise the Money, they just can't be Microsoft that's why they try to sell open source software, that's the only way for them because the closed source is still controlled by Microsoft. So far.

Mark is absolutely right! You can't negotiate with Microsoft, or they will consume you sooner or later. Microsoft has no moralty, they lie all the time. Microsoft is evil! Microsoft is the company that you have to beware! We know that. So does Mark.

[CaptainTux]

Interesting that as Carmony compares Microsoft building a better Linux to the deal between MS and Apple in 1997.

For some quick backstory.

Apple was nearly dead and struggling. They signed a contract with MS that gave them MS Office for 5 years, IE as the default browser, co operation on Java, and some other goodies. MS also bought 150 million USD in Apple stock. This stock was non voting stock and could not be sold for 3 years.

Jobs spoke of ecosystems and how this was a good thing. He spoke of friendship and great futures for both companies and many other glorious concepts.

On March 6, 2007, Information Week gave us another perspective revealed in a recent anti trust court case. One that reveals MS to be the MS we always thought it was. One that reveals this was a deal more akin to the Sopranos than a UN joint venture.

http://informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=197800638

Microsoft did not build a better Apple. Apple built a better Apple. Though this deal may not have been by their choice. Apple thought different. Apple made OS X, the iPod, and now the iPhone. They have innovated and continue to do so. Apple is a different Apple. Many of the joint ventures are with groups trying look, feel, and behave like Microsoft....on the desktop and in the board room.

Time to think different.

[dca]

Nope. SS for sailing ship in the classical nautical meaning of the initials. Like the SS Titanic. Not to be confused with the ss of the Schutzstaffel. I will never invoke godwins law. ;)

I thought S.S. was changed 'steamship'?

[SunnyRabbiera]

Hey, Godwin's law :p

Godwins law need not apply, besides everyone knows that the reason why Godwin proposed "Godwins law" is because he is one of those things himself...
Sorry its the only answer

[IYY]

For Linux to grown on the desktop it will need BUSINESS thinking, IMHO.

Ubuntu has managed to become ten times better and more successful than Linspire, and this guy thinks he is in the position to give business advice to Ubuntu and RedHat? These 'business' distributions come and go, but the ones that respect Freedom are the ones that stay. It's just good business.

[vexorian]

http://informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=197800638 - Microsoft Threatened To Kill Mac Office To Gain Infamous 1997 Apple Deal, E-Mails Reveal

If anyone thought that avoiding proprietary software just for the fact it is proprietary is wacko, insane or irrational, should read that.

[CaptainTux]

I thought S.S. was changed 'steamship'?

Originally it was Sailing Ship. It also applied for steam ship. You are correct. :p

[jiminycricket]

If anyone thought that avoiding proprietary software just for the fact it is proprietary is wavo, insane or irrational, should read that.

Oh there's a whole background to that story. They made Quicktime incompatible as well because it threatend DirectX, ended up pirating Quicktime with Intel around 1994, etc. The 1997 Apple deal was about Microsoft paying Apple off so they wouldn't sue them.

Hint: if you develop something of worth on Windows, prepare for Microsoft to suck it up without paying you (unless it's under the GPL). It happened to the Spyglass Mosaic too, Microsoft said they'd pay them royalties for their source code and...well, Google to find out what happened!

[CaptainTux]

Ubuntu has managed to become ten times better and more successful than Linspire, and this guy thinks he is in the position to give business advice to Ubuntu and RedHat? These 'business' distributions come and go, but the ones that respect Freedom are the ones that stay. It's just good business.

You bring up an excellent point.

I think this is a last gasp.

With Linspire everything is the latest and the greatest in the PR machine.

Remember, originally Lindows was going to be the one Linux distro that would run all Windows programs. Then they touted that they were the world's easiest desktop Linux. At the time, there were not many distros that were one disk install of the OS and one click install of applications. In time that edga was lost as many other distros became ready to install, use, and get applications without the need of a command line.

Along the way, Linspire got deals with Wal Mart, Staples, Tiger DIrect, Microcenter, and Fry's. Frys was a $199 machine that was as underpowered as it was under priced. However, Carmony told us this was the most exciting thing to happen to choice for the consumer in eons. Many a time we would hear that Linspire was close to a deal with Dell, but it was mysteriously pulled at the last moment.

When Ubuntu got the Dell deal....suddenly Carmony tells us..."that's nice, they wont sell many, but it's really really cute that they did that" (not a real quote, but kinda the spirit of his thoughts). How we get from Linspire on low cost machines in Fry's being an amazing event to Dell having pre installed Linux on quality higher end machines as being cute and harmless with little significance is beyond me.

Anyway, from my understanding they have yet to turn a profit. I think this is the last angle. That angle would be,"We are the legal Linux and all the rest are high brow pirates."

What I find most interesting is that when you factor in the proposed cost of Linspire 6.0 and a year of CNR, you have the exact same price as Vista Home Premium. Add to that the fact they plan on release cycles in time with Ubuntu-since it is Ubuntu based and there are no more new free upgrades to a new version number proposed and CNR is an annual fee...well, in about a year's time Vista Ultimate would have been less expensive.

Now, money may not be everything in value, but bear with me. What does MS now have? An opportunity to write white papers of Vista being a better financial value than Linux with Linspire and Xandros as the pet comparisons.

[thegnome87]

I read the Dell Linspire letter...yeah he basically sayss that Dell should preload the enthusiasts Linux distros for now, until the market is ready for a "real" mainstream distro like them (also not exact, but the jist of it original link (http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=44) [linspire.com]). Jealous...lol.

Honestly in the end I think this whole ordeal will be one of those only time will tell kind of things, as cheesy as it sounds.

[cobrn1]

Hmmm, yes, the Dell situation is interesting... I will probably be building a pc from scratch, so I can't honestly say if I'd buy one. However, I'm not sure the market is there right now. I think that at the moment we are getting windows users interested. In the next 2-4 years, when they need a new pc is when the dellbuntu pc sales will take off (IMO). However, having them here now is the start that was much needed.

Also, I don't understand how you can say that ubuntu is stealing from other distros only. I mean, really, WTF???

I switched from XP, (dual boot for gaming tho), but still, that's a WINDOWS share of the market that they've nicked! Excellent! Long time users of linux are more likely to be set in their ways with one particular distro, and are less likely to change, so ubuntu doesn't steal from within linux. AND, if long time users _do_ move then ubuntu is obviously offering something really incredible, so it has every right to get these users too!

In essence, STFU Carmony! I wish i could be nicer, but i really think that summs up my feeling best (and I think alot of other peoples on this board)...

[Swab]

STFU Carmony!

Runs off to register STFUCarmony,com ;)

[cobrn1]

Runs off to register STFUCarmony,com ;)

lol :D

[CaptainTux]

I would buy a t shirt that said that. I also love that Linspire is moving away from odf to support the MS "open" standard. Good to know they care so little.

[Swab]

I would buy a t shirt that said that. I also love that Linspire is moving away from odf to support the MS "open" standard. Good to know they care so little.

Got a link to that? absolute disgrace.

I remember when he came sniffing round these forums looking for support for CNR. I wasn't too impresses with the way he took criticism.

[Frak]

Got a link to that? absolute disgrace.

I remember when he came sniffing round these forums looking for support for CNR. I wasn't too impresses with the way he took criticism.
I agree, he was very defensive. He never admitted were he was wrong, even when it was appearant.

[vexorian]

I would buy a t shirt that said that. I also love that Linspire is moving away from odf to support the MS "open" standard. Good to know they care so little.
There is a line between being "pro bussiness" and being completelly retarded, and THAT would cross the line, hope you are wrong.

[BigSilly]

They (Linspire) seem to be putting a lot of time and money into Click N Run, but I'm not sure if it's even needed nowadays. It works well enough in Freespire, but I can't see it being useful in Ubuntu at all, or in other distros either. There are certainly so many excellent alternatives to CNR on Ubuntu that it's rendered useless before it's even begun, surely. Downloading new software is so easy in most distros now, with things like Synaptic and Automatix2 etc. What's CNR going to offer beyond what we've already got?

[Frak]

advertising/profit from distros they don't own

[aysiu]

Well, to most Ubuntu users, CNR won't offer much, but it does offer a couple things.

I believe it actually has reviews (Add/Remove has ratings with stars but not necessarily reviews). More importantly (again, for some users), it offers the ability to install commercial software through the package manager (Cedega, for example).

[vexorian]

but commercial software is already easy to install anyways

[jrusso2]

I encourage everyone to not use CNR, especially since Mr. Carmony has now become anti linux and has sold out to Microsoft with the patent deal

[aysiu]

but commercial software is already easy to install anyways
That's not the point. CNR isn't "rendered useless." It offers things that Add/Remove and Synaptic do not.

That means it will be useful to some people.

You cannot install Cedega through the package manager right now, no matter how "easy" you think it is to install.

[vexorian]

Is that so? Couldn't Cedega make a repository for synaptic?

[aysiu]

Is that so? Couldn't Cedega make a repository for synaptic?
Well, they could, but they don't want to, because Transgaming wants to be able to charge money for its product.

Synaptic doesn't have an interface for purchasing software.

Here are some other pieces of commercial software they offer for purchase through CNR. Again, not stuff most Ubuntu users would want to install, but my point is only that CNR does offer something that our current package managers do not.
210 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Ch Professional Edition
Not Reviewed
2005-01-31
Utilities : Miscellaneous 17.69MB
Ch Professional Edition is a powerful collection of tools and libraries that include 2D/3D plotting and many high-level numerical functions.
Ver. 4.7
Install Time
Price: $399.00 CNR Gold Price: $279.30
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251 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info LinuxCad
Not Reviewed
2006-04-11
Multimedia & Design : Animation 18.90MB
General purpose drafting program.
Ver. 5.0
Install Time
Price: $199.00 CNR Gold Price: $150.00
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230 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Portfolio Gains
Not Reviewed
2005-11-10
Business & Finance : Personal Finance 36.34MB
Easy-to-use software program for tracking your investments and producing tax reports.
Ver. 7.0
Install Time
Price: $149.95 CNR Gold Price: $99.95
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177 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info OpenInsight
Not Reviewed
2006-04-21
Software Development : Development Environments 48.05MB
Allows your applications to go cross-platform between Linux and Windows or back.
Ver. 7.2.1
Install Time
Price: $99.00 CNR Gold Price: $79.95
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133 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info MyBooks Pro (Two User Version)
Not Reviewed
2006-01-10
Business & Finance : Personal Finance 65.89MB
MyBooks Professional (MBP) is the ideal financial platform for small-to-medium businesses.
Ver. 6.2.0
Install Time
Price: $99.00 CNR Gold Price: $79.95
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33 26 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Deluxe Fonts
2005-11-08
Desktop Enhancements : Fonts 1.90MB
Package of Commercially Licensed Bitstream TrueType fonts ($99 value)
Ver. 1.3.0
Install Time
Price: $99.00 CNR Gold Price: $4.95
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39 38 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Win4Lin Pro
2006-07-18
Utilities : System Utilities 3.69MB
virtual machine which runs Windows 2000/XP applications
Ver. 6.3.0
Install Time
Price: $89.99 CNR Gold Price: $69.99
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220 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info StarSuite (JAPANESE)
Not Reviewed
2005-01-12
Business & Finance : Word Processing 144MB
JAPANESE Version of Star Office featuring commercially available Word Processing, Spreadsheet, Presentation, Graphics, Database, and Java all-in-one software suite. ($75 Value)
Ver. 7.0
Install Time
Price: $75.00 CNR Gold Price: $29.95
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167 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - In and Out
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
1.96MB
This package contains the In and Out font pack from Bitstream, made exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $69.99 CNR Gold Price: $55.99
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123 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Bali Beat
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
1.86MB
This package contains the Bali Beat font pack from Bitstream, created exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $69.99 CNR Gold Price: $55.99
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3 12 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info StarOffice 8
2006-07-31
132.63MB
Save Money and Work Smarter with the latest version of Sun's remarkable suite of office products. Gold Subscribers save $20!
Ver. 8.0.3
Install Time
Price: $69.95 CNR Gold Price: $49.95
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31 49 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info TransGaming Cedega
2006-02-16
Games : Miscellaneous 1.16MB
Play Hundreds of Microsoft Windows Games on Linspire!
Ver. 5.1.0
Install Time
Price: $60.00 CNR Gold Price: $44.95
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- Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info MyBooks Pro (Single User Version)
2006-01-10
Business & Finance : Personal Finance 65.89MB
MyBooks Professional (MBP) is the ideal financial platform for small-to-medium businesses.
Ver. 6.2.0
Install Time
Price: $59.00 CNR Gold Price: $49.95
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94 108 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Gorky17
Not Reviewed
2006-06-12
Games : Strategy and War 327.84MB
Gorky 17 is a horror conspiracy game mixing elements of strategy and RPG gameplay.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $55.00 CNR Gold Price: $35.00
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255 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info X2 - The Threat
2006-05-24
Games : Adventure and RPGs 818.04MB
Beautiful & entertaining action space game.
Ver. 1.4.0
Install Time
Price: $55.00 CNR Gold Price: $45.00
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106 127 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info ColdWar
Not Reviewed
2006-07-31
Games : Strategy and War 880.31MB
strategy-based war game set in the cold war era
Ver. 1.0
Install Time
Price: $55.00 CNR Gold Price: $45.00
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- Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Lassist MailMinder
2005-01-21
Business & Finance : Time Management 0KB
Forward individual e-mails to yourself and others so that they arrive at a specific time
Ver. 1.0
Install Time
Price: $49.95 CNR Gold Price: Free!
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103 113 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Thinkfree Office 3
2005-11-15
86.61MB
A simple but powerful suite of word processing, spreadsheet & presentation applications.
Ver. 3.0.0628
Install Time
Price: $49.95 CNR Gold Price: $29.95
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7 7 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Lassist Reminders
2006-01-22
Business & Finance : Time Management 0.74MB
Easily send yourself a handy email to remind you of things you want or need to do.
Ver. 1.9.21
Install Time
Price: $49.95 CNR Gold Price: Free!
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170 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Sketsa
2006-03-22
Multimedia & Design : Authoring Tools 5.18MB
Sketsa is a cross platform vector drawing application based on SVG.
Ver. 3.0
Install Time
Price: $49.00 CNR Gold Price: $39.00
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61 93 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Majesty Gold
2005-03-24
Games : Adventure and RPGs 397MB
Majesty offers you the throne of a kingdom in a fantastic world.
Ver. 1.4.0
Install Time
Price: $44.95 CNR Gold Price: $29.95
85 85 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Postal 2 Share the Pain
2005-06-10
Games : Action 648.02MB
Run amok in Paradise, Arizona! First Person Shooter that's Sick, Twisted and Tons of Fun!
Ver. 0.0.20050610
Install Time
Price: $40.00 CNR Gold Price: $24.95
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260 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Linux General Ledger
Not Reviewed
2005-03-02
Business & Finance : Miscellaneous 0.26MB
Business accounting and bookkeeping software for personal, small business and client write-up.
Ver. 2.3
Install Time
Price: $39.95 CNR Gold Price: $29.95
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81 83 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info TextMaker Pro
2005-02-08
Business & Finance : Word Processing 8.46MB
TextMaker Pro is a modern word processor that launches instantly, reads and writes Microsoft Word documents, and has all the great features you'd expect from commercial-caliber software!
Ver. 2002.404
Install Time
Price: $39.95 CNR Gold Price: $24.95
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268 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info CrossOver Office Standard Edition
2006-02-02
14.36MB
Allows you to install & run your favorite Windows applications and plugins in Linspire!
Ver. 5.0.1
Install Time
Price: $39.95 CNR Gold Price: $34.95
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108 170 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info MailWasher Pro
2005-10-13
Internet : Miscellaneous 2.50MB
The Reliable Spam Blocker
Ver. 1.1.2
Install Time
Price: $37.00 CNR Gold Price: $29.95
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145 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info BasicBooks
Not Reviewed
2006-04-10
Business & Finance : Project Management 1.24MB
A complete, easy-to-use bookkeeping system.
Ver. 0.1
Install Time
Price: $35.00 CNR Gold Price: $25.00
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24 36 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Pixel Image Editor
2006-04-10
Multimedia & Design : Authoring Tools 14.15MB
A powerful image editor, animation authoring tool, artistic media painting tool, photo retouching and web authoring application
Ver. 1.0.524
Install Time
Price: $32.95 CNR Gold Price: $24.95
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185 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Software Tycoon
2005-07-26
Games : Miscellaneous 55.60MB
Form your own high-powered software team and dominate the world's market for computer games!
Ver. 1.0
Install Time
Price: $31.99 CNR Gold Price: $19.95
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52 53 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Creatures 3
2005-01-31
Games : Miscellaneous 161MB
Award-winning simulation game that lets you guide a species to survival.
Ver. 3.0
Install Time
Price: $31.95 CNR Gold Price: $19.95
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225 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info MindRover
Not Reviewed
2006-05-23
Games : Simulations 5.96KB
Mindrover is an exciting strategy game in which you are given full control of 'rovers'. Watch them race and battle it out while finding their way through mazes.
Ver. 1.07
Install Time
Price: $31.95 CNR Gold Price: $19.95
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204 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - What's to Eat?
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
1.24MB
This package contains the What's to Eat? font pack from Bitstream, exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $29.99 CNR Gold Price: $23.99
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156 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Scrap Happy
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
1.28MB
This package contains the Scrap Happy font pack from Bitstream, exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $29.99 CNR Gold Price: $23.99
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66 81 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Progression Desktop
2005-12-20
Utilities : System Utilities 0.82MB
Allows you to transfer files and settings from Windows desktops to Linux desktops in an automated fashion.
Ver. 1.2.2
Install Time
Price: $29.95 CNR Gold Price: $24.95
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78 79 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Tribal Trouble
2006-04-26
Games : Strategy and War 25.17MB
Fast paced realtime strategy game.
Ver. 0.0.6178
Install Time
Price: $29.95 CNR Gold Price: $20.00
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18 21 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Moneydance 2005
2005-02-23
Business & Finance : Miscellaneous 34.80MB
The latest version of this groundbreaking new personal financial tool similar to Quicken.
Ver. 0.0.20050218
Install Time
Price: $29.95 CNR Gold Price: $19.95
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205 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Flicks-N-Pix
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.71MB
This package contains the Flix n Pix font pack exclusively for Linspire from Bitstream.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $24.99 CNR Gold Price: $19.99
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243 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Crash This Party!
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.80MB
This package contains the Crash This Party! font pack from Bitstream, made exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $24.99 CNR Gold Price: $19.99
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27 31 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info TuxRacer Deluxe
2005-03-16
Games : Arcade 71.69MB
Commercial version of TuxRacer ($25 Value - Requires 3D graphics hardware)
Ver. 1.1.1
Install Time
Price: $24.95 CNR Gold Price: $9.95
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91 103 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Soul Ride
2005-06-10
Games : Sports 21.89MB
Carve the world's most famous mountains! Intense snowboarding game reproduces real snowboarding spots. Endless terrain. Sweet Graphics. Don't miss this one!
Ver. 0.0.20050610
Install Time
Price: $22.00 CNR Gold Price: $14.95
40 26 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info TuxRacer Deluxe
2005-03-16
Games : Arcade 71.69MB
Commercial version of TuxRacer ($25 Value - Requires 3D graphics hardware)
Ver. 1.1.1
Install Time
Price: $24.95 CNR Gold Price: $9.95
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73 66 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Soul Ride
2005-06-10
Games : Sports 21.89MB
Carve the world's most famous mountains! Intense snowboarding game reproduces real snowboarding spots. Endless terrain. Sweet Graphics. Don't miss this one!
Ver. 0.0.20050610
Install Time
Price: $22.00 CNR Gold Price: $14.95
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62 37 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info MP3beamer
2005-03-10
Audio & MP3 : Miscellaneous 13.10MB
MP3beamer is a music appliance that allows you to set up one machine to store all your music and then access that music from other computers, software programs or even your own home stereo.
Ver. 0.1.22
Install Time
Price: $20.00 CNR Gold Price: $10.00
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125 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - The Rat Pack
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.55MB
This package contains the The Rat Pack font pack from Bitstream, exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $19.99 CNR Gold Price: $15.99
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96 88 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Memo Me
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.66MB
This package contains the Memo Me font pack from Bitstream, exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $19.99 CNR Gold Price: $15.99
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220 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Ghoul Crazy
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.74MB
This package contains the Ghoul Crazy font pack from Bitstream, made exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $19.99 CNR Gold Price: $15.99
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127 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Dear Diary
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.86MB
This package contains the Dear Diary font pack from Bitstream, made exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $19.99 CNR Gold Price: $15.99
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162 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - News to You
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.65MB
This package contains the News to You font pack from Bitstream, made exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $19.99 CNR Gold Price: $15.99
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188 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Kids Stuff
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.82MB
This package contains the Kid Stuff font pack exclusively for Linspire from Bitstream.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $19.99 CNR Gold Price: $15.99
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148 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Inherit the Earth
2005-01-31
Games : Miscellaneous 431MB
The return of a classic adventure game
Ver. 1.0
Install Time
Price: $19.99 CNR Gold Price: $16.99
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193 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Slumber Party
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.72MB
This package contains the Slumber Party font pack from Bitstream, exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $19.99 CNR Gold Price: $15.99
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249 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Bitstream Fonts - Stick it to 'Em!
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
0.55MB
This package contains the Stick it to 'em! font pack from Bitstream, exclusively for Linspire.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $19.99 CNR Gold Price: $15.99
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22 10 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Orbz
2005-07-20
Games : Miscellaneous 14.5MB
Orbz is an action/arcade game set in colorful 3D environments (requires Open GL 3D Video Card)
Ver. 2.1
Install Time
Price: $19.95 CNR Gold Price: $14.95
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56 23 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info ThinkTanks
2005-03-07
Games : Miscellaneous 17.10MB
Drive your tank into cartoon combat, matching wits with brain hungry bots and online opponents.
Ver. 1.0.2
Install Time
Price: $19.95 CNR Gold Price: $14.95
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66 55 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info HyperSpace Delivery Boy
2005-02-17
Games : Miscellaneous 45.89MB
Futuristic game about a small delivery boy trying to escape danger.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $19.95 CNR Gold Price: $14.95
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10 3 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info DH: Lore Invasion
2006-09-19
Games : Action 105.53MB
Dark Horizons: Lore Invasion pits you and your lethal war machine against combat-hardened enemies and unrelenting firepower. First-person action with multi-player chaos!
Ver. 2.0.2
Install Time
Price: $19.95 CNR Gold Price: $14.95
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222 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Gish
2005-07-07
Games : Adventure and RPGs 53.69MB
An instant classic. Life isn't easy when you're a 12 pound ball of tar...
Ver. 1.43.0
Install Time
Price: $19.95 CNR Gold Price: $14.95
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52 52 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info NingPo MahJong
2005-02-14
Games : Miscellaneous 3.80MB
Play the classic game of strategy, with a stylish interface, mellow music, and hundreds of play variations, over a dozen board styles and 9 tile sets.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $15.95 CNR Gold Price: $9.95
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182 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Candy Cruncher
Not Reviewed
2005-06-30
Games : Boardgames 2.91MB
Crunch candy away with this fun and easy to use puzzle game, beware of the time limit!
Ver. 1.50
Install Time
Price: $15.95 CNR Gold Price: $9.95
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264 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Hancom Sheet 2.0
Not Reviewed
2005-05-05
Business & Finance : Spreadsheets 53.30MB
Hancom Sheet is a powerful and professional commercial spreadsheet program ($15 Value)
Ver. 2.0.2
Install Time
Price: $14.95 CNR Gold Price: $9.95
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79 76 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info The Best of DeviantART Contest Vol. 1
2004-12-22
53MB
A Stunning Collection of Wallpapers Created Exclusively for the deviantArt and Linspire contest.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $9.95 CNR Gold Price: $4.95
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224 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Linspire Kids Theme
2005-10-19
2.08MB
Colorful Linspire Theme for kids.
Ver. 1.2.2
Install Time
Price: $9.95 CNR Gold Price: Free!
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136 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Best of Emily Richards - Volume 1
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
110MB
This first volume contains 12 of Emily Richards' best songs. Check out why she has been one of the most downloaded pop/rock independent artists.
Ver. 0.0.2004
Install Time
Price: $9.95 CNR Gold Price: $8.49
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155 - Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info Best of Emily Richards - Volume 2
Not Reviewed
2004-12-22
110MB
If you liked Emily Richards Volume 1, you'll be sure to enjoy more of this talented, independent artist's greatest hits.
Ver. 0.0.2004
Install Time
Price: $9.95 CNR Gold Price: $8.49
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30 59 Install using CNR. Add to Aisle. More Info The Best of DeviantART Contest Vol. 2
2004-12-22
52.89MB
A Stunning Collection of Wallpapers Created Exclusively for the deviantArt and Linspire contest.
Ver. 1.0.0
Install Time
Price: $9.95 CNR Gold Price: $4.95 Okay. I got bored of bolding the names of the commercial software titles, so I'm going to attach a screenshot from their website (http://www.linspire.com/lindows_products_categories.php?1=1&npg=2&sort=7&lang=en&category=).

The other thing CNR offers is the ability to remember what software you've installed, so if you have a second computer in the same household or if you choose to reinstall, when you run CNR, it'll install the software you had installed before if you want.

When CNR comes out for Ubuntu, I doubt I'll use it. Synaptic suits my needs. But you can't say it offers nothing over our current package managers. What you can say is that CNR offers only marginal additional functionality that won't matter enough to most Ubuntu users for them to install it to support Linspire.

[deanlinkous]

sounds good but there are negative aspects to buying thru CNR also, and synaptic can do somethings that CNR cant too...

Here is something interesting that CNR can do......is it DRM or just some calling home and checking? You decide....
http://info.linspire.com/publish/cnrsign.html

[aysiu]

Right on, deanlinkous.

I'm not trying to assert that CNR is all positives or that it's better than Synaptic.

I'm just trying to put the balanced truth out there. The truth is the CNR does offer a few things Synaptic does not. Whether people actually want those "few things" is another story.

[vexorian]

However, some software vendors require additional protection, so Linspire.com has a mechanism available to publishers which they can use within their program to see if the product has been purchased and installed legitimately via CNR. This technology is called CNRsign and further protects the vendor from users installing a commercial package with Click-N-Buy, repackaging it up, and then sharing it with others who don't have a license for the program.
...

Yeah noq that's bussiness thinking, bringing the most annoying crap from windows to the Linux world, congratulations Linspire!

[deanlinkous]

Any copy protection is "bad" for software pirates, but good for software developers. If Linux is to attract software developers, we need to respect the copyrights of commercial programs.
ARG matey....

Yea, I guess we should respect the copyrights of COMMERCIAL programs......but open/free programs we can just sign patent deals and admit guilt of infringment for those and repackage and seel it and.....what else.....

[CaptainTux]

Kevin Carmony and I had a phone call today. The conversation was an honest exchange of thoughts, ideas, perspectives, finding common ground, and respectfully disagreeing on the areas we cannot agree on. We spoke at lenfth on many things in Freespire and Linspire that led to my resigning from the community board. It was a good and healthy discussion. I will say this, as this pertains to the thread here. I can honestly say that it is in my opinion that he genuinely values Linspire's relationship with Ubuntu and Canonical and does support the Dell/Ubuntu relationship. He not only supports it, but feels that this is the right deal at the right time.

I know I am the bloke who started this, but when you spend 45 minutes on the phone with a guy, you gotta be fair.

[tgalati4]

I nnstalled Freespire 1.0 on a spare machine. It's good. 2.0 is out now. I have not tried it. People may want to buy a shrink-wrapped version of Linspire with a decent book, support, and the solid foundation of Freespire/Ubuntu development.

It's all good. Let's stop hating and get back to coding. In the time I took to read these 12 pages of Carmony-ranting--I could have submitted 3 bugs, or compiled a new package, or helped 3 people on the forums--or registered STFUCarmony.com. I better see if it's up yet.

[tgalati4]

It's still available.

How much would Carmony pay for it?

[Frak]

or registered STFUCarmony.com

Thats what I was going to do today!
I totally forgot and just registered a random domain because of that!
I'll try tomorrow.:lolflag:

[TravisNewman]

I'm not about to say Carmony and Linspire are evil, but as someone pointed out, a year of Linspire, including the software and the CNR subscription is about as much as Vista Home Premium.

As you can see from a while back, they've been charging for OpenOffice and Firefox for a long time
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=5993
The cost wasn't that much back then. But they were still ignoring the fact that it was someone else's programs they were selling.

Now CompareSoft, http://www.comparesoft.com/products.html
They're selling OO for 70 bucks, Gimp for 80 bucks, and Firefox/Thunderbird for 50!
Oh, and they sell Windows and Mac software, no Linux software oddly enough.

They even have a faq, where they SHOULD address the fact that they're selling open source software, but instead say this:

Q: How can you deliver on quality at such low prices? Back to top (http://www.comparesoft.com/support.html#top)
A: CompareSoft, Inc., is part of a world-wide network of developers and industry experts. We work closely with them on a daily basis, and as a team can support new features, find bugs, and generally develop faster and more efficiently than traditional software publishing houses. All of this is transparent to the you, however - each CompareSoft product is carefully tested for compatibility, integration, and stability before it is released.

I'm not saying it's bad to sell open source software, it isn't in the least. But this is just plain swindling. While it doesn't violate the terms of the GPL, to many I would say it violates the spirit of free software.

[aysiu]

Well, when you do sell GPL'ed software, you should be honest about what you're selling. It's usually not the software itself. You're selling the packaging, the nicely printed manual that accompanies the packaging, support for the product, and/or the convenience of not having to download a large file.

Ubuntu doesn't pretend to be selling a different product from the regular free download when they sell the Ubuntu DVD. The DVD offers the convenience of having huge repositories all on one disk, and it's great for users who are on dial-up or who have no internet connection.

And the Ubuntu DVD (which includes GIMP, OpenOffice, and Firefox) is only US$10, not US$200.

[Frak]

Well, when you do sell GPL'ed software, you should be honest about what you're selling. It's usually not the software itself. You're selling the packaging, the nicely printed manual that accompanies the packaging, support for the product, and/or the convenience of not having to download a large file.

Ubuntu doesn't pretend to be selling a different product from the regular free download when they sell the Ubuntu DVD. The DVD offers the convenience of having huge repositories all on one disk, and it's great for users who are on dial-up or who have no internet connection.

And the Ubuntu DVD (which includes GIMP, OpenOffice, and Firefox) is only US$10, not US$200.
Wouldn't they still be required to provide the source if requested?

[aysiu]

Wouldn't they still be required to provide the source if requested?
Yes, but the kinds of people who would be duped into paying for CompareSoft or OooFf would likely not care about sources or wanting to see them/download them.

[vexorian]

I actually think it is good people buy open source at such incredible costs, I kind of guess the cost also includes support, the thing I don't like about the situation is Linspire's deal with MS, the way they became supporters for MS live search (wtf!) and Open XML (double wtf!) , if someone wants to make bussiness (I mean honest and non-prolock-in bussiness) with open source it is all right.

[Frak]

Though I do believe that their products should come with some sort of attribution to the respectful owner of the program.

[Macintosh Sauce]

Why are we still talking about LInspire/Freespire? Aren't there better things to talk about?

[vexorian]

Though I do believe that their products should come with some sort of attribution to the respectful owner of the program.
GPL is not an attribution license thus that is not required at all, and asking such a thing would be against the spirit of the GPL. Their obligation when releasing GPL software is to include the license in the distribution and make the source available.

[Dr. C]

Kevin Carmony's comments on "The Moral High Ground" and "piracy" and what could be interpreted to be a veiled reference to Ubuntu


Lastly...some distributions have come out, claiming to be taking the "morale high ground" by refusing to give into "Microsoft threats," while openly promoting the means of circumventing proprietary software on their web sites, amounting to nothing more than high-brow software piracy.
Some are claiming anti-Microsoft sentiment in regards to our recent announcement, but I don't see them licensing or respecting the IP from many others, not just Microsoft. That's not how I define the "moral high ground.
from http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=49 fail for most parts of the world because they equate United States law with morality.

They are also the reason why anyone outside of the United States should avoid a US based desktop GNU / Linux distribution if for example they want to play DVDs. This is one reason I chose Ubuntu over many US based distributions. DeCSS is perfectly legal in many parts of the world and using to play a DVD is not piracy, but in the US it is against the law (I understand it is a felony) so Kevin Carmony has a valid point but only with respect to a distribution based in the US. There is no reason why someone outside of the US should have to pay for an IP license they do not need.

Linspire could be the answer for US based users or those who plan to take their Laptops into the US and play DVDs while on US soil, but it will run soon into trouble with GPL v3 once the GPLv3 code gets into Ubuntu. I suspect Festy will the the last version of Ubuntu that will not include GPLv3 code. Using CNR to install the US legal codecs etc in Ubuntu if that becomes available in the future may be a better option.

[saulgoode]

DeCSS was taken to court in the U.S. with the plaintiffs claiming it was a violation of their trade secrets; and while it might very well have been, the charges were dropped before any final ruling was made.

LIBDVDCSS, which is an open-source program for viewing DVDs, was not created by stealing codes from a proprietary player, but instead uses what amounts to a sophisticated method of 'trial-and-error' to determine how a DVD should be decoded. While most distributions avoid shipping libdvdcss, there has never been court case claiming that libdvdcss violates any U.S. laws.

So Mr Carmony's proclamation that Linux users are disrespecting the "intellectual property" rights of others is unfounded, and an insult to the community upon which he depends for his livelihood.

[Frak]

GPL is not an attribution license thus that is not required at all, and asking such a thing would be against the spirit of the GPL. Their obligation when releasing GPL software is to include the license in the distribution and make the source available.
Though I mean it would be respectful to have something like "Based off software created by Mozilla" or "Based off software created by the GNU foundation". They should offer support for things like that, not just shrinkwrap it with a shiny new name.

[Pumalite]

Business itself is not bad indeed, people who do it are. All those people want is to make $$$, they don't care about all the ideals behind Free Software at all and if they could make the others distro die, they'd do it without hesitation. We really don't need that kind of sharks in the Free Software world.

I like the way you think, HymnToLife.

[StueyB]

I bought Lindows as it was back then, with 12 months obligatory support.

It was good, but I was ignorant to the existance of Ubuntu. In my eyes, having used both, Ubuntu just blew lindows out the water, on price, support and goodwill and now Mr K is just trying to play me to me to in the linux world.

I also used to get really annoyed when Kevins weekly thoughts ALWAYS!!! went back to how great mp3.com was or his latest venture. I know he has to sell stuff, but it was so blatent as to be offputting.

[BoyOfDestiny]

Though I mean it would be respectful to have something like "Based off software created by Mozilla" or "Based off software created by the GNU foundation". They should offer support for things like that, not just shrinkwrap it with a shiny new name.

Issues would definitely arise from that though...



When people put many such programs together in an operating system, the result is a serious problem. Imagine if a software system required 75 different sentences, each one naming a different author or group of authors. To advertise that, you would need a full-page ad.

...

Thus, there is now a new BSD license which does not contain the advertising clause. Unfortunately, this does not eliminate the legacy of the advertising clause: similar clauses are still present in the licenses of many packages which are not part of BSD. The change in license for BSD has no effect on the other packages which imitated the old BSD license; only the developers who made them can change them.


http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/bsd.html

[Dr. C]

DeCSS was taken to court in the U.S. with the plaintiffs claiming it was a violation of their trade secrets; and while it might very well have been, the charges were dropped before any final ruling was made.

LIBDVDCSS, which is an open-source program for viewing DVDs, was not created by stealing codes from a proprietary player, but instead uses what amounts to a sophisticated method of 'trial-and-error' to determine how a DVD should be decoded. While most distributions avoid shipping libdvdcss, there has never been court case claiming that libdvdcss violates any U.S. laws.

So Mr Carmony's proclamation that Linux users are disrespecting the "intellectual property" rights of others is unfounded, and an insult to the community upon which he depends for his livelihood.

IANAL. The trouble is that DeCSS and by extension LIBDVDCSS can be considered to be an anti-circumvention measure under the United States Digital Millennium Copyright Act. So for example importing into the United States a laptop with LIBDVDCSS installed can be considered a violation of this legislation. The penalties can be quite severe up to 10 years in prison.

I do agree that DeCSS has not really being tested in court in the US and further more the constitutionality of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. has not been tested in court either, but until that happens this very repressive legislation is the law in the United States. So I can understand why there are people that do not want to risk spending 10 years in a US prison.

[Frak]

IANAL. The trouble is that DeCSS and by extension LIBDVDCSS can be considered to be an anti-circumvention measure under the United States Digital Millennium Copyright Act. So for example importing into the United States a laptop with LIBDVDCSS installed can be considered a violation of this legislation. The penalties can be quite severe up to 10 years in prison.

I do agree that DeCSS has not really being tested in court in the US and further more the constitutionality of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. has not been tested in court either, but until that happens this very repressive legislation is the law in the United States. So I can understand why there are people that do not want to risk spending 10 years in a US prison.
We do have the worst people running our government. Sex offenders get off with only 6-7 years in prison. When watching a movie can get you a decade. Just wrong.

[DoctorMO]

anti-circumvention measure under the United States Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

The DMCA has compatibility previsions, I admit they're not very strong previsions but they are a legally defensible position. I'd personally attack DeCSS from within the WTO, it CLEARLY violates laws governing the practice of creating trade barriers between countries and regions with it's region encoding. Who the hell died and made them king of the world to set up such trade barriers?

As for patents *shrug* we could include lame (mp3 support) by default so long as it couldn't encode mp3's (which it can) so we can ship a hacked lame that only plays mp3s for instance because the patents are licensed that way (even in the USA)

As for apple quicktime, windows media and realplayer I'm afraid we're screwed since we don't really have clean-room open source versions of those codecs and at the moment we're just using windows DLLs which is pretty much illegal in every country (copyright infringement) although morally those formats should be opened up forcibly by law.

Oh and as for Linspire... I believe Carmony is misguided, he doesn't believe in the spirit of man, trusting his fellows and creating a business without hiding information. I don't mind him selling foss works, but mislabeling, not even mentioning that it's foss or that it's gpl etc is suspect; his dealings with Microsoft and the comments raised in this thread show him to be snowblind in the foss world.

[saulgoode]

IANAL. The trouble is that DeCSS and by extension LIBDVDCSS can be considered to be an anti-circumvention measure under the United States Digital Millennium Copyright Act. So for example importing into the United States a laptop with LIBDVDCSS installed can be considered a violation of this legislation. The penalties can be quite severe up to 10 years in prison.

I do agree that DeCSS has not really being tested in court in the US and further more the constitutionality of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. has not been tested in court either, but until that happens this very repressive legislation is the law in the United States. So I can understand why there are people that do not want to risk spending 10 years in a US prison.

The DMCA does not grant any protections to a copyright holder other than protection of his copyrights. Circumvention of CSS does not violate any of the copyright holder's rights under copyright law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Exclusive_rights) if I own a legally-obtained copy of the DVD. CSS is not a protection mechanism against copying or distribution -- you can make duplicates of a DVD without ever decoding it. If I have legally obtained a copy of a DVD, the DMCA does not remove my licensed right to view it.

The court case of Chamberlain vs Skylink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamberlain_v._Skylink#Ruling) reinforced this concept. The ruling in Universal vs Reimerdes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_v._Reimerdes) -- while it upheld the claims of the copyright holder -- "found that the primary purpose of the defendants' actions was to promote redistribution of DVDs in violation of copyright laws, because the defendants admitted as much." This also reinforces the concept that copyright law applies to distribution and does not cover the"viewing rights" of a legally-obtained DVD.

I agree with the sentiment of your last sentence, a distribution has the right to choose which packages to include or exclude based on whatever reasoning they wish. Nonetheless, that does not change the fact that I find Mr Carmony's unsubstantiated assertion that I am behaving criminally to be quite offensive.

[deanlinkous]

I agree with the sentiment of your last sentence, a distribution has the right to choose which packages to include or exclude based on whatever reasoning they wish. Nonetheless, that does not change the fact that I find Mr Carmony's unsubstantiated assertion that I am behaving criminally to be quite offensive.
Agreed....pirates be we....branded by Admiral Carmony... Arg!

Yea, I dont think DMCA would ever trump copyright law if it went to court and copyright law is about rights and usage including fair use. The DMCA mostly deals with "unauthorized access" and "unauthorized copying" and IMO if you purchased or rented the dvd by a legal means then there is nothing about the DMCA that applies. Companies love to take away "fair use" rights and now they are using the DMCA to further that goal. If you legally have purchased content then I would bet everything I have that a court would uphold your right to access that content in any way you please. Especially considering that IMWO most patents do not apply to the end-user anyway.

Oh, and the DMCA has some exceptions in it that you could drive a bus thru...my bus be honking... :o

[forrestcupp]

Using that argument is just a gimmick to get people to buy their distro.

[deanlinkous]

Next thing you know, Linspire will only allow you to install the OS on one computer....

oh wait....

[Macintosh Sauce]

Next thing you know, Linspire will only allow you to install the OS on one computer....

oh wait....
:lolflag: