Is CaLoCo dead?

[miggl]

I'm beginning to wonder what the California LoCo team is all about, and even if it exists at all. There has been minimal activity here, and perhaps the lack of activity is indicative of low interest, or too many other requirements being placed on the current team leadership.
I have not received any answers to my posts, or even a response to my greeting. Not that I am in need of attention, but any healthy community welcomes new members and has a leadership that is involved. I'm not seeing that here.

Thoughts, anyone?

[actualandrew]

hey miggl :D

[miggl]

Hey Andrew!

Want to start a California Revivial Group? hehehe

[Flannel]

We're quite active in #ubuntu-california on freenode, (the Ubuntu-California IRC channel), stop in and stay a while. The Launchpad group is growing steadily as well.

[ricardisimo]

I'm still wondering about advocating at the state and local levels here. Is there any interest at all?

We're not just in the belly of the Beast here in CA, we are the Beast, and what we do here makes a huge difference everywhere. You'd think we'd be eager to get active, but instead we have to rely on Sudan, Egypt and Argentina to do the heavy lifting. It's not right.

Anyhow, I'd love to do the research and paperwork to set up the CalUbuntu Non-Profit (or CaLinux, or whatever), and then do some outreach. I've got some experience politically and with the unions now, so that stuff would be relatively easy for me.

Where I'm a total incompetent is with actual system and software issues. I'm a lifetime noob and proud of it. Basically what I'm saying is that I'm not going to leap into anything unless I know that there is some competent local support; a small group of people within an hour's drive with whom I can get in contact and/or to whom I can refer potential converts.

Please let me know if this sounds appealing to anyone.

[miggl]

I love the glimpse of the idea you have provided here.

I'm still a newb in LoCo groups, so please bear with me here :).


You'd think we'd be eager to get active, but instead we have to rely on Sudan, Egypt and Argentina to do the heavy lifting.What did you mean by that?


Anyhow, I'd love to do the research and paperwork to set up the CalUbuntu Non-Profit (or CaLinux, or whatever), and then do some outreach.What is the mission statement of this non-profit?

I'm a software developer and would like to get started in developing in and for Linux. Ubuntu has given me so much in form of awesome software and capabilities, unpresedented OS and stability; I'd like to contribute back to the community as well.

[ricardisimo]

My reference is to all of the freeware advocacy going on apparently everywhere but here. You see success stories from almost everywhere; entire national governments declaring iTunes illegal (for not supporting non-prop formats, I believe); major institutions being forced to move to open formats for their documentation formats and software, etc., etc.... and so little of this is taking place in California, at least that I can tell. I'd love to do something to change that.

The mission statement would be to promote Free & Open systems and formats generally (and from both a basic philosophic standpoint as well as a practical and economic one) and - perhaps - Ubuntu specifically. I'd think most of us could get behind that.

What would I specifically like to do? I'd love to put Ubuntu and Edubuntu desktops in as many schools and working-class homes as possible. We could do that in several ways:

]take companies old equipment as donations for them to write off on their taxes, reassemble and reconfigure them until they're brand new again;
or do some serious fundraising and also try to set up partnerships with local hardware outlets (you're from the L.A. area... Fry's would be great if we could get them on board) to buy brand-spanking new equipment to put in the schools.

Well, that's something like the basic idea right now. However, I'm with majority opinion on these issues; whatever everyone else wants is the goal. But, I'd like to support anyone who's actually doing the footwork, going to PTA and City Council meetings, and so forth.

I'm glad I'm finally getting a response from someone (and I imagine you are as well... ;) Talk to you soon.

[miggl]

Indeed, glad to be getting some action here, so to speak! :) hehe

Wow, that's quite an undertaking! But, yes, I think we can all get behind those ideals. Thinking this through, you would be basically creating an IT-based company that would specialize in assembling, distributing, and supporting OpenSource, maybe specifically Ubuntu, throughout CA.

I can see the drivers behind this reasoning, and I can see it working out. Here are my thoughts on that, and please don't take it as flaming, or shut-down, just some points to ponder:
- Significant effort would have to be put into making custom system installers for our purpose. What I mean is that we would have to set up a light-weight Desktop OS that can run on older PCs, as well newer ones (or perhaps create different versions for different CPU stages (Pentium, PII, PIII, PIV, etc...), and then support those. The idea is consistency.
- We would have to develop standards and procedures as to how we implement, distribute, and support clients, again, for consistency and efficiency.
- We would not be a software shop (I know you never made the argument, I'm just bringing it up because that's where my passion lies). We would be an IT-hardware/networking/tech support shop.

The first two are key points that we NEED to absolutely nail. If we fail, we not only fail our non-profit organization and our clients, but we effectively harm Linux, specifically Ubuntu, and its propagation by giving the appearance that Linux is indeed to ready yet for the public.

Good discussion, I'm eager to hear more of your thoughts!

Mike

[ricardisimo]

You clearly weren't listening to me... me no speaky techy! :D

No, seriously, I always love finding out that I'm not crazy, or rather that at least one or two other people are crazy as well and have given thought to this or that. However, I must stress that I have very close to zero ability to talk the talk in this particular realm. If I am to be involved in this it will be as an advocate and fund raiser, not as a tech. If anything, I'd like to use myself as a walking advertisement for Ubuntu... "If this moron can use it, anyone can!"

These disclaimers aside, yes, we would need to focus on consistency and reliability, and with the two options I discussed above they should be manageable. If, on the one hand, we recycle donation equipment, bear in mind that we'll tend to get bulk from companies, for they themselves tend to buy in bulk, so that large blocks of the material we'd work with would be fairly equivalent, if not identical to itself.

If, on the other hand, we are buying brand new equipment, the problems would tend to go away on their own, by and large. Or wouldn't they? You seem far more capable in this regard, so I would defer to you on this and related points.

There is one nuance I would like to discuus and debate with people here, and it involves computers in the schools. I differ with many here in that I actually want to minimize their importance. For the young kids I think outdoor play is far and away the most important aspect of their education, and as they get older, books, the library and real-life experiences. Computers are WAY down the list for me... and therefore we shouldn't be spending beau coup bucks on software.

I guess I'm making this clear now because it is somewhat ironic that I would be advocating for something to which I am opposed (in a manner of speaking). My concern is that the money tends to determine the priorities, rather than vice versa. So, playgrounds are asphalt, rather than grass, because that's where the money is. Likewise, classrooms are virtual rather than real, because that's where the money is.

Well, please tell me what you think before I go on.

[ricardisimo]

P.S. - I'm hoping that if this thread gets long enough we'll start getting some other voices to chime in.

[actualandrew]

Hi. I'm reading along. I know how to assemble/disassemble computers and install OS's/software :-). I am A+ certified.

P.S. Today I watched as my former A+ instructor started the download of Feisty Fawn per my recommendation.

[miggl]

Hi. I'm reading along. I know how to assemble/disassemble computers and install OS's/software :-). I am A+ certified.

P.S. Today I watched as my former A+ instructor started the download of Feisty Fawn per my recommendation.
That's awesome! :) For this idea we would definitely need some OS guys. I'm handy with hardware and OS as well, but I prefer development.


You clearly weren't listening to me... me no speaky techy! :D
Hehe, no, you weren't listening to me! :-P j/k I was speaking in terms of the non-profit organization as a whole. Sure, there will be staff that will do marketing and make all the contacts, negotiations, etc.; but the main backbone of the company will have to be IT.


These disclaimers aside, yes, we would need to focus on consistency and reliability, and with the two options I discussed above they should be manageable. If, on the one hand, we recycle donation equipment, bear in mind that we'll tend to get bulk from companies, for they themselves tend to buy in bulk, so that large blocks of the material we'd work with would be fairly equivalent, if not identical to itself.

If, on the other hand, we are buying brand new equipment, the problems would tend to go away on their own, by and large. Or wouldn't they? You seem far more capable in this regard, so I would defer to you on this and related points.
Indeed! I was looking more at the technical aspects, in that we do not necessarily need to provide uniform hardware, but we need to provide a pre-built ubuntu solution that will work for them out of the box, have everything pre-configured, installed, and set up in a consistent manner. We don't want to end up having to build each machine individually, but rather put a machine together, then zap it with our pre-built ubuntu image. (Sorry for the techie-lexie!) :)


There is one nuance I would like to discuus and debate with people here, and it involves computers in the schools. I differ with many here in that I actually want to minimize their importance. For the young kids I think outdoor play is far and away the most important aspect of their education, and as they get older, books, the library and real-life experiences. Computers are WAY down the list for me... and therefore we shouldn't be spending beau coup bucks on software.

I guess I'm making this clear now because it is somewhat ironic that I would be advocating for something to which I am opposed (in a manner of speaking). My concern is that the money tends to determine the priorities, rather than vice versa. So, playgrounds are asphalt, rather than grass, because that's where the money is. Likewise, classrooms are virtual rather than real, because that's where the money is.
You're right, in a sense this is an oximoron. I do see where you are coming from, but I'm not sure the clients will support the same view. That would have to be a major part of the non-profit organization's mission statement, and I'm not sure everyone shares that sentiment.
For example: I grew up in the fashion you explained, playgrounds with grass, running around outside, and not cooped up inside all the time. However, over time, I have come to appreciate the computer so tremendously, that I don't care to go out anymore. I started working with computers in my late teens, and never looked back (don't want to, either). I do want my children (should I have some one day) to be as prepared as possible for life; which more and more will include computers. And you're absolutely right, there needs to be a balance. I'm not sure that balance will be for the non-profit supplying the computers to decide, it would be for the schools, and I'm not sure their decision to get ubuntu computers instead of Dells would change their priorities with activities at school.

Cheers,
Mike

[ricardisimo]

Andrew: You rock. Stick around and we'll do good work of which we can be proud. Are you in the greater LA area?

Mike: If we can make the software a non-financial decision then the problem will take care of itself. Schools will get things they genuinely feel that they need, rather than what they are being pressured to buy. Most importantly, the kids will learn best from a system they can break at will. Correct me if you think I'm wrong, but real learning involves play, and play involves risk. With MS and Mac they are going to be restricted to working within the prescribed parameters. With Ubuntu they can trash the whole system without serious consequences. Just pop the disc in and reload. That's how we really learn, whether it's reality or virtual. That's an important pitch for us to make.

[miggl]

I agree with you about the schools in theory. About learning through play, I agree 100%. I'm not convinced schools have the best interests of the children at heart. At the bottom of it, they are a for-profit business, that need to make ends meet. Also, the decision-makers in schools very often have their own agendas, and if some money gets freed up by getting computers donated, then they are liable to use it where they think it is more important.
I'm not trying to say no, this shouldn't be done. I'm just highlighting concerns that I have, and things that I know happen. One of my friends is the IT admin for a school, and we talk about how things should be done, etc., because the decision-makers at the school really do have ulterior motives and don't care about the children themselves, but about the image of their school, and how the investors see it.
As a side-note, they did have a grass / sand playground, and decided to rubberize it, because they could afford it.

I applaud the intentions of the project, but if we start it, we need to be pessimistic about, just as if we were starting a real business. We will need to have contingency plans, business plans, and so forth. The reason I say pessimistic is because we need to plan for the worst, while hoping for the best. That way you have at least some expectation of problems that may arise, and you will be better prepared to deal with them (not you, as in you personally).

The other thing is, what if our clients need support, and the children or users do mess up the computers. I would wager that most admins working at our potential type of clients right now are specialized in Microsoft technology. Either they would have to rely solely on us for support, or hire new staff that understands Ubuntu, or (re)train their existing staff. Options (B) and (C) are huge investments (relative to their budget) which they most likely won't be able to afford.

Another reason why I might come off as pessimistic is because of my experiences with trying to get Ubuntu set up in a multiuser environment. My dream is to get away from Microsoft technology and fully support OpenSource technologies. The problem is that on the networks, there are too many interrelated products from Microsoft that often dictate what you can and can't use. For instance a domain based network runs smoothly off ActiveDirectory, Exchange, and SharePoint Server (small business scenario). These are mesh seamlessly together in Windows. Not so in Linux: you need to assemble a suite of applications that would best suit your needs, and implement work-arounds to get to what appears to be seamless integration (be it by using thin-clients, etc.).

I think there are still too many obstacles that need to be overcome to convince businesses to switch to Ubuntu, if they already have a successful Microsoft setup. However, if we had a setup that we could demo, we could very possibly convince them. This goes back to the point I was trying to make in the last post: we will need to customize our version of Ubuntu for various purposes, so that we can install by inserting our version of ubuntu, and simply zap it from the CD/DVD onto the computer. We cannot afford to build each machine individually in these types of scenarios, that opens us up for too many problems, inconsistencies, and will result in user-complaints, as well as us being overburdened by maintenance requests.

Before I continue nay-saying :), how do you envision it working? Walk me through a use-case, as in the steps you would take to get a potential client to be persuaded by you, and have us set up their company with Ubuntu. Perhaps you have a totally different approach than I am envisioning, and my arguments may be moot.

Cheers!
Mike

[ricardisimo]

Hey Mike,

Sorry for the late response. My original idea was extremely modest: take in hardware donations from local businesses who are upgrading to newer stuff; give them a receipt for their taxes; check out the equipment to make sure all of the basics are working (functional RAM, a decent hard drive, sound, graphics, CD/DVD, wireless, a monitor and maybe a printer if we get lucky. That would be the basic package that we would put together in our spare time. Obviously, in a school situation the printer wouldn't be an absolute, since they tend to be networked.

If some part of the "package" is missing, we start mixing and matching pieces and parts until it is functional. Once we have one that is ready to go, we present it to the district or a specific school as a donation from CalUbuntu. Alternately, we present it to individual families who qualify based on certain criteria (just the way the local Music Conservatory offers scholarships). Basically these criteria are need and interest, with some sort of guarantee that the machine isn't going directly to the trash heap.

This is, mind you, the bare bones version: Collect materials, put it all together with (Ed)Ubuntu, distribute to where it will do the most good.

I haven't discussed tech support not because I don't think it's important, but because a) I'm out of my element; and b) I think people should get paid for that sort of work, rather than donate their time. Our best bet is to run an introductory seminar or demostration on Ubuntu, or Edubuntu. Just a primer on the basics of the system, how easy it is to repair the usual "breaks" and where to get more information. Their existing IT people should be well-versed enough to be able to ask the right question in the right channels and forums.

That's what I think, anyway.

[akane]

Great ideas guys, I'm following along just so you know. Let me know how I can help. I have 7+ years of Linux experience, mostly Slackware and FreeBSD, with this past year being Ubuntu.

[ricardisimo]

Hey guys,

I just received an invitation from a member of the Board of Pasadena Unified School District to put together a proposal regarding what "I" can do for the district regarding software and systems. "I" means us as far as I'm concerned, and so let's hear some proposals. I don't want anyone volunteering regular services to PUSD... that's NOT what we should be doing. However, if anyone would be willing to appear before a School Board meeting with me to answer the more technical questions, that would be phenomenal.

Does anyone have Edubuntu installed and operative on any of their machines? Also, who is intimately familiar with Fedora, and do they have an "educational" suite like Edubuntu? I've been told that Pasadena City College custom-designed its own OS, so I'm also going to look into the viability of just asking them to offer their systems as templates for the lower grades.

It's not LA Unified (which is a beast, and would be a absolute coup for Free & Open) but it's big enough, it's next-door and it's a start. Anyone interested?