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bedouin
July 9th, 2005, 07:05 PM
I've written a short article I believe is good to share with your non-technical friends. There is a plethora of articles out there outlining the technical merits of Linux, but very few that explain the social and economic reasons a change is necessary. I figured I would post it here since Ubuntu addresses these needs to a certain extent in its philosophy.

---

Digital Slavery
Why being anti-Microsoft is about more than geek chic

So you have technically savvy friends. One in particular, let’s call him -- Niles, is an avid Linux fan. He preaches to you about its superior security; its lack of viruses; its strength in the server market. He talks about OpenOffice, Firefox, The Gimp, and a myriad of other applications that can surely replace your commonly used Windows applications.

And he’s mostly right.

Your other friend, let’s call him -- Andre, is a Mac fan. He has what occasionally seems to be an unhealthy, perhaps psychotic love of his platform. Andre also talks about OS X’s lack of viruses, its ease of use, and its ability to “just get things done.”

He’s also right.

So why is it no one cares? The average Mac or Linux geek oftentimes doesn’t understand: why after being bombarded with viruses, spyware, crashes, and generally unintuitive, overpriced software does the average Windows user never consider a change?

There’s a number of reasons for that. Linux still requires a bit of technical know-how, though it has made steps toward user-friendliness over the years; and until recently Macs have been viewed by many as simply too expensive. One can debate the validity of both of these arguments, or point to other causes; we can even discuss the psychology of abuse, and how some Windows users are just too scared to explore greener pastures, however that’s not this article’s concern.

The real question is this: as an enlightened user of an alternative operating system, how can you go beyond evangelizing its technical merits, and instead make people see life beyond Microsoft? The answer is a simple one that, as individuals obsessed with our computers, we often forget: there is a humanistic side to computing, one that has unfortunately been corrupted by a Microsoft hegemony. What I propose in this article are three points of attack when attempting to sway an individual away from digital slavery.

Humanistic: Computers as renascence tools

Even preceding OS X, Mac users have had something in common with their open-source comrades in the Linux and BSD communities: creativity. When one thinks of Linux, images of an individual working in an art studio, or editing a film do not immediately come to mind. However, Linux and BSD users exhibit a different kind of creativity, of equally important value. Indeed, many who have embraced Linux have done so out of a desire to be in control of their operating systems, to the extent of being able to manipulate its code at even the lowest levels. Additionally, the open source community promotes project development both independently and collaboratively, producing projects that frequently answer the cries of users for applications that the corporate world would otherwise never create.

In the Mac world, creativity takes a different path. Out of the box OS X practically dares its users to just create something, whether it’s a short film in iMovie, a photographic portfolio in iPhoto, or a musical piece in Garageband. Subsequently, Mac users tend to be more eager to delve into the world of participatory media; the recent podcasting phenomena has emerged, largely, from the Mac crowd; the infamous “Truth About the IPod” video was created in iMovie, on a Macintosh, and distributed in Quicktime format.

However Linux and OS X encourage creativity in more subliminal ways. Neither operating system taunts the user with wizards, pop-ups, marketing, or grammar suggestions. While writing this article in Apple’s Pages I was not once asked if I’d like help writing it; a dancing paperclip never appeared, nor was I harassed by a GUI that looked as if it were designed by Playskool. Windows trains its users to be moronic, telling them that it’s okay to remain helpless in front of their machines, continuously relying on the assistance of a geek friend, or outsourced tech-support in Bangalore. It’s the beginning of a long relationship -- an abusive relationship, one that the user believes is perfectly normal, especially since his friends all experience similar problems with their machines.

This condition is not coincidental, and it’s largely the result of an operating system designed from the ground up with a primarily corporate perspective, where there is no concern for individual expression, but an emphasis on cutting corners, reducing costs, and releasing a product on schedule. The result is a stale, uninspiring, grayish Microsoft world. Big brother in 2005 is no longer IBM, but Microsoft, and the primary objective is to keep you locked in.

Political: A cry against digital imperialism

As a youth in the 1980s I remember drooling over a number of different platforms, that, as a Commodore user, I felt were all equally interesting. From Atari STs, Amigas, Macs, Apple ][’s, to IBM compatibles I never really envisioned the monolithic computer world we live in today. Who would have thought that the Amiga, with its awesome multimedia capabilities, would have been beat by a beige box and a DOS prompt?

Yet that’s the case, and with closer analysis, it’s really quite frightening. The proliferation of Windows has resulted in a widened acceptance of proprietary protocols and file formats, and an obsessive campaign of patenting, that if legally pursued, could hinder a number of both open and closed source projects that attempt cross-platform integration. Not to mention, the monopolistic standardization of Windows on 90% of the world’s desktops has created an incredibly easy target, generating catastrophic meltdowns each time a thirteen year old virus programmer decides showcase his latest work.

Widespread use of the Internet beyond government and educational institutions has made Microsoft’s reign all the more terrifying. With a tight grip on the desktop market, Windows is in a unique position of dictating, and in fact, completely disregarding agreed upon standards, a predicament web developers are all too familiar with when their pages appear wonderfully in every browser -- except Internet Explorer.

The Internet has made truly participatory approaches to media creation a reality; there are no gatekeepers, and site visits are determined by the content’s public value, and/or one’s ability to promote it. Recent news stories initially broken by bloggers have highlighted the medium’s potential. Yet, let us remember that corporate America, which Microsoft is a part of, firmly controls what is news and what is not, and is unwilling to forfeit its domination anytime soon. One can hopefully see where this is leading. Microsoft’s blatant disrespect of standards, and continuous attempts at propagating closed formats and protocols is an attempt to hinder the free exchange of information. Free media is generally not the friend of corporate America, and Gates’ vision of a PC on every desktop is hardly philanthropic.

Economic: An appeal to the wallet

Microsoft has generally turned a blind eye to piracy, because piracy -- whether they like to admit it or not, has been their friend. With free options such as OpenOffice and Linux available, the incentive to run Windows or Office -- Microsoft’s two biggest products, is decreasing rapidly every day. Consumer lock-in is key. If the average consumer is initially unwilling to pay outrageous fees for software, he or she will be after the superiority of the Word document has been subconsciously engraved into their mind, despite the truthfulness of such a claim.

The economic dimension of Microsoft’s hegemony is even more troubling in developing nations, where a meager $5 USD license for Windows could seem expensive, never mind $150. Adoption of Linux, and regionally specific development becomes incredibly attractive in these situations. Naturally, Microsoft is there to make sure that doesn’t happen, and the lock-in cycle continues.
Here is an example. A young undergraduate majoring in computer science has a strong interest in Linux; he works furiously with his country’s user group toward the localization of key apps. Microsoft steps in, and offers the young man a paid scholarship for graduate studies in the US, and possibly future employment as a Microsoft representative in his region. At this point, he has to make a choice: help his nation become technologically independent, or instead peddle overpriced solutions to various government institutions throughout his country; with the added title of “Dr.” in front of his name, courtesy of Microsoft, his word starts to carry some weight. And so instead of investing critical funds in hardware, or internal software development, this country begins to waste thousands, perhaps millions of dollars in licensing fees, in addition to the inherent cost of maintenance required to keep a Windows network healthy.

A trip to the so-called third-world is not necessary to witness Microsoft’s educational lock-in tactics, just visit any number of computer science departments in the United States bought out and wowed by MS marketing. Instead of learning the basics of computing in their introductory computing classes, students learn about the start menu, control panel, and scanning their documents for viruses; instead of learning how computers work, in a manner applicable regardless of platform, students simply memorize patterns and a series of motions. And when those patterns and motions are different than expected, their world comes crumbling down. The solution? Trash their $300 PC and buy another one, which will just malfunction a few months later. Or perhaps the more sophisticated will pursue a reinstallation, after which they can expect to endure hours of downloading Windows updates, and a series of reboots.

So, where do you want to go today? If you’re a Windows user, you’ll need a tow truck before answering that question.

Now what?

Hopefully this article has provided you with some talking points, or perhaps activated a few mental relationships that you were unaware of. Remember these points while repairing your friend or family member’s machine. If necessary, gently sway them away from Microsoft products. Introduce them to Firefox, OpenOffice, and The Gimp -- all of which have Windows versions. If you’re a Mac user, prepare a short demo showing them how to not only accomplish their usual tasks in OS X, but do so more efficiently. The average computer user needs more incentive to switch than a replacement of equal quality; he or she needs something superior. More is at stake here than the continued use of a mediocre operating system; a binary culture is no better than a monolithic one. Multiple platforms, all utilizing agreed upon standards, open protocols, and file formats are key in conquering a digital oligarchy.

Teach the bourgeois, and rock the boulevard . . .

BWF89
July 9th, 2005, 07:16 PM
Your a great writer. Unfortunately for the time being im stuck useing Windows XP because my parents like Windows and they dont want me duel booting with another OS. That and the fact that Linux doesn't have any drivers for my Canon S520 printer.

I hate Microsoft so much that I refused to buy an Xbox or an Xbox360.

ecadre
July 9th, 2005, 07:30 PM
duel booting

En garde !




edited to add:

sorry, I'm very naughty :-#


I'll read the article later, it looks interesting.

sonny
July 9th, 2005, 07:48 PM
It's a nice article; you write pretty well. Although you might want to include something more about the Linux way of thinking, the Open Source Proyects, and perhaps, encourage the user to learn about his/her computer, what they're actually doing, and the securities issues with windows; not all just the root thing. Well that's a lot, but you did it great.

RastaMahata
July 9th, 2005, 07:49 PM
great article!

TravisNewman
July 9th, 2005, 07:52 PM
nice article. You have a very eloquent writing style.

poptones
July 9th, 2005, 09:07 PM
No offense intended, but I would suggest a run through the spell checker before submission as "a paper."

I just want to comment on this...

When one thinks of Linux, images of an individual working in an art studio, or editing a film do not immediately come to mind. However, Linux and BSD users exhibit a different kind of creativity, of equally important value.

This is antiquated. In another discussion here I pointed out to a fellow how Hollywood has embraced linux, and he didn't seem to believe it either. The fact is linux enables great creativity and most of the big production houses use linux machines by the rack load. If ten years ago you needed to know how to drive a mac to work in Hollywood, now to get those primo FX graphic jobs you need much more than a passing familiarity with python and bash and film gimp.

When I was working on lab material for the then new "computer visualization" class at the local uniy one of the frequent complaints from artists was on how they "did not think like that" and how they resented having to take programming classes for what they felt was an art degree.

But they were stuck in that false mindset that was being sold to them by Apple. Apple made it look like "computers" were the bad guy but "we're good because we make it all simple and you can do all these things without having to realize you're using one of those computers." But that left the thumbprint of Apple on everything these folks produced. And it was really hard to wipe away that thumb print - it was expensive and it required a lot of education and effort to get around it - to "move up" to something like an SGI. And when you arrived, where were you? Back in unix world - having to learn to live with the CLI.

Linux is completely about creativity - not of "another kind" but of ALL kinds. It's about using the computer as a tool of the mind in its entirety and not as an "object" separate from one's self.

mohaham
July 9th, 2005, 09:11 PM
nice article, well-written...

Lord Illidan
July 9th, 2005, 09:17 PM
Great article..
You could also mention the courses such as ECDL and MCSE et al made by Microsoft to create further lock-in, so that everything is done the Microsoft way, instead of the general way.

bedouin
July 9th, 2005, 09:26 PM
No offense intended, but I would suggest a run through the spell checker before submission as "a paper."

What spelling errors are there?

Lord Illidan
July 9th, 2005, 09:59 PM
I took the liberty of correcting the few spelling errors..They are highlighted in red, nothing else has been changed from the original article.

Digital Slavery
Why being anti-Microsoft is about more than geek chic

So you have technically savvy friends. One in particular, let’s call him -- Niles, is an avid Linux fan. He preaches to you about its superior security; its lack of viruses; its strength in the server market. He talks about OpenOffice, Firefox, The Gimp, and a myriad of other applications that can surely replace your commonly used Windows applications.

And he’s mostly right.

Your other friend, let’s call him -- Andre, is a Mac fan. He has what occasionally seems to be an unhealthy, perhaps psychotic love of his platform. Andre also talks about OS X’s lack of viruses, its ease of use, and its ability to “just get things done.”

He’s also right.

So why is it no one cares? The average Mac or Linux geek sometimes doesn’t understand why the average Windows user never considers a change after being bombarded with viruses, spyware, crashes, and generally unintuitive, overpriced software.

There’s a number of reasons for that. Linux still requires a bit of technical know-how, though it has made steps toward user-friendliness over the years; and until recently Macs have been viewed by many as simply too expensive. One can debate the validity of both of these arguments, or point to other causes; we can even discuss the psychology of abuse, and how some Windows users are just too scared to explore greener pastures, however that’s not this article’s concern.

The real question is this: as an enlightened user of an alternative operating system, how can you go beyond evangelizing its technical merits, and instead make people see life beyond Microsoft? The answer is a simple one that, as individuals obsessed with our computers, we often forget: there is a humane side to computing, one that has unfortunately been corrupted by a Microsoft hegemony. What I propose in this article are three points of attack when attempting to sway an individual away from digital slavery.

Humane side: Computers as renassiance tools

Even preceding OS X, Mac users have had something in common with their open-source comrades in the Linux and BSD communities: creativity. When one thinks of Linux, images of an individual working in an art studio, or editing a film do not immediately come to mind. However, Linux and BSD users exhibit a different kind of creativity, of equally important value. Indeed, many who have embraced Linux have done so out of a desire to be in control of their operating systems, to the extent of being able to manipulate its code at even the lowest levels. Additionally, the open source community promotes project development both independently and collaboratively, producing projects that frequently answer the cries of users for applications that the corporate world would otherwise never create.

In the Mac world, creativity takes a different path. Out of the box OS X practically dares its users to just create something, whether it’s a short film in iMovie, a photographic portfolio in iPhoto, or a musical piece in Garageband. Subsequently, Mac users tend to be more eager to delve into the world of participatory media; the recent podcasting phenomena has emerged, largely, from the Mac crowd; the infamous “Truth About the IPod” video was created in iMovie, on a Macintosh, and distributed in Quicktime format.

However Linux and OS X encourage creativity in more subliminal ways. Neither operating system taunts the user with wizards, pop-ups, marketing, or grammar suggestions. While writing this article in Apple’s Pages I was not once asked if I’d like help writing it; a dancing paperclip never appeared, nor was I harassed by a GUI that looked as if it were designed by Playskool. Windows trains its users to be moronic, telling them that it’s okay to remain helpless in front of their machines, continuously relying on the assistance of a geek friend, or outsourced tech-support in Bangalore. It’s the beginning of a long relationship -- an abusive relationship, one that the user believes is perfectly normal, especially since his friends all experience similar problems with their machines.

This condition is not coincidental, and it’s largely the result of an operating system designed from the ground up with a primarily corporate perspective, where there is no concern for individual expression, but an emphasis on cutting corners, reducing costs, and releasing a product on schedule. The result is a stale, uninspiring, grayish Microsoft world. Big brother in 2005 is no longer IBM, but Microsoft, and the primary objective is to keep you locked in.

Political: A cry against digital imperialism

As a youth in the 1980s I remember drooling over a number of different platforms, that, as a Commodore user, I felt were all equally interesting. From Atari STs, Amigas, Macs, Apple ][’s, to IBM compatibles I never really envisioned the monolithic computer world we live in today. Who would have thought that the Amiga, with its awesome multimedia capabilities, would have been beat by a beige box and a DOS prompt?

Yet that’s the case, and with closer analysis, it’s really quite frightening. The proliferation of Windows has resulted in a widened acceptance of proprietary protocols and file formats, and an obsessive campaign of patenting, that if legally pursued, could hinder a number of both open and closed source projects that attempt cross-platform integration. Not to mention, the monopolistic standardization of Windows on 90% of the world’s desktops has created an incredibly easy target, generating catastrophic meltdowns each time a thirteen year old virus programmer decides showcase his latest work.

Widespread use of the Internet beyond government and educational institutions has made Microsoft’s reign all the more terrifying. With a tight grip on the desktop market, Windows is in a unique position of dictating, and in fact, completely disregarding agreed upon standards, a predicament web developers are all too familiar with when their pages appear wonderfully in every browser -- except Internet Explorer.

The Internet has made truly participatory approaches to media creation a reality; there are no gatekeepers, and site visits are determined by the content’s public value, and/or one’s ability to promote it. Recent news stories initially broken by bloggers have highlighted the medium’s potential. Yet, let us remember that corporate America, which Microsoft is a part of, firmly controls what is news and what is not, and is unwilling to forfeit its domination anytime soon. One can hopefully see where this is leading. Microsoft’s blatant disrespect of standards, and continuous attempts at propagating closed formats and protocols is an attempt to hinder the free exchange of information. Free media is generally not the friend of corporate America, and Gates’ vision of a PC on every desktop is hardly philanthropic.

Economic: An appeal to the wallet

Microsoft has generally turned a blind eye to piracy, because piracy -- whether they like to admit it or not, has been their friend. With free options such as OpenOffice and Linux available, the incentive to run Windows or Office -- Microsoft’s two biggest products, is decreasing rapidly every day. Consumer lock-in is key. If the average consumer is initially unwilling to pay outrageous fees for software, he or she will be after the superiority of the Word document has been subconsciously engraved into their mind, despite the truthfulness of such a claim.

The economic dimension of Microsoft’s hegemony is even more troubling in developing nations, where a meager $5 USD license for Windows could seem expensive, never mind $150. Adoption of Linux, and regionally specific development becomes incredibly attractive in these situations. Naturally, Microsoft is there to make sure that doesn’t happen, and the lock-in cycle continues.
Here is an example. A young undergraduate majoring in computer science has a strong interest in Linux; he works furiously with his country’s user group toward the localization of key apps. Microsoft steps in, and offers the young man a paid scholarship for graduate studies in the US, and possibly future employment as a Microsoft representative in his region. At this point, he has to make a choice: help his nation become technologically independent, or instead peddle overpriced solutions to various government institutions throughout his country; with the added title of “Dr.” in front of his name, courtesy of Microsoft, his word starts to carry some weight. And so instead of investing critical funds in hardware, or internal software development, this country begins to waste thousands, perhaps millions of dollars in licensing fees, in addition to the inherent cost of maintenance required to keep a Windows network healthy.

A trip to the so-called third-world is not necessary to witness Microsoft’s educational lock-in tactics, just visit any number of computer science departments in the United States bought out and wowed by MS marketing. Instead of learning the basics of computing in their introductory computing classes, students learn about the start menu, control panel, and scanning their documents for viruses; instead of learning how computers work, in a manner applicable regardless of platform, students simply memorize patterns and a series of motions. And when those patterns and motions are different than expected, their world comes crumbling down. The solution? Trash their $300 PC and buy another one, which will just malfunction a few months later. Or perhaps the more sophisticated will pursue a reinstallation, after which they can expect to endure hours of downloading Windows updates, and a series of reboots.

So, where do you want to go today? If you’re a Windows user, you’ll need a tow truck before answering that question.

Now what?

Hopefully this article has provided you with some talking points, or perhaps activated a few mental relationships that you were unaware of. Remember these points while repairing your friend or family member’s machine. If necessary, gently sway them away from Microsoft products. Introduce them to Firefox, OpenOffice, and The Gimp -- all of which have Windows versions. If you’re a Mac user, prepare a short demo showing them how to not only accomplish their usual tasks in OS X, but do so more efficiently. The average computer user needs more incentive to switch than a replacement of equal quality; he or she needs something superior. More is at stake here than the continued use of a mediocre operating system; a binary culture is no better than a monolithic one. Multiple platforms, all utilizing agreed upon standards, open protocols, and file formats are key in conquering a digital oligarchy.

Teach the bourgeois, and rock the boulevard . . .

ecadre
July 9th, 2005, 10:06 PM
renascence is a valid spelling. Not as common, but perfectly valid.

edited to add:

Also:

"Oftentimes" is different to "sometimes". They do not mean the same thing, so exchanging "sometimes" for "oftentimes" changes the emphasis of the sentence.

weasel fierce
July 10th, 2005, 01:12 AM
why do I feel a sudden urge to break out a red banner ? :)

Dave88
July 10th, 2005, 01:43 AM
Nice article, I like it.


I hate Microsoft so much that I refused to buy an Xbox or an Xbox360.
Wish I could say that but I just couldn't help myself!!

ecadre
July 10th, 2005, 01:50 AM
Nice article, I like it.


I hate Microsoft so much that I refused to buy an Xbox or an Xbox360.
Wish I could say that but I just couldn't help myself!!

You're a very, very, very naughty bunny.

Now go off to bed without any tea :razz:

Sye d'Burns
July 10th, 2005, 09:43 AM
As a youth in the 1980s I remember drooling over a number of different platforms, that, as a Commodore user, I felt were all equally interesting. From Atari STs, Amigas, Macs, Apple ][’s, to IBM compatibles I never really envisioned the monolithic computer world we live in today. Who would have thought that the Amiga, with its awesome multimedia capabilities, would have been beat by a beige box and a DOS prompt?

All these years later and, frankly, I'm still in shock over that one.

Well articulated article. Good work!

a-nubi-s
July 10th, 2005, 02:47 PM
Your article bedouin would be better and much less hypocritical if you leave out OS X. It's not right to equate OS X with Linux. Linux is open and offers users freedom, OS X isn't and doesn't. A prison with a swimming pool and all-you-can-eat buffet is still a prison.

mips
July 11th, 2005, 07:39 PM
All these years later and, frankly, I'm still in shock over that one.

Well articulated article. Good work!

All about marketing...

I still have nightmares about the loss of the Amiga, real shame it went the way it did. It kicked ANY competitions ass around the block. The hardware was good and the OS was a breath of fresh air in those days. Sad to say but it had some MS software on it, think it was the basic interpreter or something like that.

And to make things worse, Apple is opting for Intel. Geez, stick with IBM & go Cell for the laptops. If you really have to go with AMD...

There is very little greatness left in the world.

cheers
mips

bedouin
July 11th, 2005, 10:23 PM
All about marketing...

I still have nightmares about the loss of the Amiga, real shame it went the way it did. It kicked ANY competitions ass around the block. The hardware was good and the OS was a breath of fresh air in those days. Sad to say but it had some MS software on it, think it was the basic interpreter or something like that.

And to make things worse, Apple is opting for Intel. Geez, stick with IBM & go Cell for the laptops. If you really have to go with AMD...

There is very little greatness left in the world.

cheers
mips
The demise of Amiga is even more insane when you remember that PCs around that time were priced about twice as much.

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 12:51 AM
He preaches to you about [Linux's] superior security; its lack of viruses; its strength in the server market. He talks about OpenOffice, Firefox, The Gimp, and a myriad of other applications that can surely replace your commonly used Windows applications.
I didn't read any further into the post than this.

In 2005, viruses are little more than nostalgia artifacts; the problem is the utter pervasiveness of malware-for-profit on the Internet. Linux's apparent freedom from malware problems (for now!) is the sole reason I tolerate its generally poor functionality as typically distributed.

I also dispute the MS-equivalency of at least some of these programs, notably OpenOffice's word processor compared to MS Word.

If this post is intended for wider publication, I think this opening should be edited to reflect a more valid support premise for Linux.

ecadre
July 12th, 2005, 01:08 AM
I also dispute the MS-equivalency of at least some of these programs, notably OpenOffice's word processor compared to MS Word.

Open Office is Open Office, personally I couldn't dive a stuff to "Microsoft equivalency".

The sooner we start doing more of our "own thing" and stop chasing Microsoft so much (cf. Mono) the better.

poptones
July 12th, 2005, 01:13 AM
In 2005, viruses are little more than nostalgia artifacts

What? I quit working phone support only about a year ago and I regularly saw clients infected with virii. I even know people who install sub7 on their OWN machines because they think it gives them plausible deniability if they get caught somewhere or with something "out of bounds."


the problem is the utter pervasiveness of malware-for-profit on the Internet.

But much of that "for profit" malware relies on viral disribution mechanisms. And I don't mean social memes.


I also dispute the MS-equivalency of at least some of these programs, notably OpenOffice's word processor compared to MS Word.

For the average consumer, what's the diff? And OO comes with publishing tools and a spreadsheet app not included in the "budget" version of office.

I have sent many office customers to OOo. Most seemed very happy to have an alternative that wouldn't lock them out of their documents because they lost the page with the secret key.

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 02:03 AM
Open Office is Open Office, personally I couldn't dive a stuff to "Microsoft equivalency".

The sooner we start doing more of our "own thing" and stop chasing Microsoft so much (cf. Mono) the better.
My point was that it didn't have the sophistication and at least some of the advanced features of MS Word that I require (or at least find very useful and time-saving) when doing serious writing.

I'm not looking for transparent cloning of popular Windows-based products (though it would be nice in easing transition -- there's a very PhotoShop version of Gimp, for example), but at least a thorough functional equality.

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 02:17 AM
I quit working phone support only about a year ago and I regularly saw clients infected with virii.
Yes, but my point is that pure, traditional viruses are trivial in pervasiveness and remedy compared to for-profit malware in 2005. Malware makes one nostalgic for simple kid-stuff viruses!

Malware may in some ways be virus-like, certainly, but at least as a choice of terminology, "malware" more accurately defines the current threat.

I had perhaps three simple virus infections in over twenty years of online computer use, and they were trivially dealt with. I will get more malware infestations than that in an hour on the net currently, and they are often incredibly difficult to find and remove by any available means.


Most seemed very happy to have an alternative that wouldn't lock them out of their documents because they lost the page with the secret key.
Ha! I did that a couple of weeks ago! :-P

I quickly found a nice little program that took care of the problem, though.

aysiu
July 12th, 2005, 02:18 AM
My point was that it didn't have the sophistication and at least some of the advanced features of MS Word that I require (or at least find very useful and time-saving) when doing serious writing.

For the average consumer, what's the diff? And OO comes with publishing tools and a spreadsheet app not included in the "budget" version of office. I don't really see the difference between these two. The average consumer doesn't use the "advanced features" of MS. In fact, the average consumer doesn't even use the intermediate features. Most people I've met (even in the workplace) don't know how to do a mail merge, a find/replace, or a change-case.

bedouin
July 12th, 2005, 02:33 AM
I don't really see the difference between these two. The average consumer doesn't use the "advanced features" of MS. In fact, the average consumer doesn't even use the intermediate features. Most people I've met (even in the workplace) don't know how to do a mail merge, a find/replace, or a change-case.
For all of those complaining, basically, that it's not pro-Linux enough well . . .

I've been an OS X user since 2002 on my desktop machines; and was a Linux user prior to that.

Linux has always been on my servers and hobby machines, alongside BSD variants as well.

You personally may see Linux as the ultimate solution for any task, but I see it as one of many -- all depending on context. Some people I direct to Linux, others I direct to Mac -- depending on their needs.

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 02:40 AM
I don't really see the difference between these two. The average consumer doesn't use the "advanced features" of MS. In fact, the average consumer doesn't even use the intermediate features. Most people I've met (even in the workplace) don't know how to do a mail merge, a find/replace, or a change-case.
This is becoming something of a tangent; I cannot speak for what "average consumers" do or don't do. I was merely pointing out the simple fact that these programs were not always of equivalent sophistication in features, and that this specific program was inadequate for my use as a consequence of that fact.

Most of us never use 90% of any relatively sophisticated program's features, but if the one you're used to using is missing, then it's a problem for you.

If the Linux applications are merely "adequate substitutes for 'typical' Windows users," (and they usually are), then one should be careful not to oversell them as being on par with commercial programs written and marketed for professional Windows users.

That should be obvious.

aysiu
July 12th, 2005, 02:52 AM
If the Linux applications are merely "adequate substitutes for 'typical' Windows users," (and they usually are), then one should be careful not to oversell them as being on par with commercial programs written and marketed for professional Windows users.
Agreed. It's a delicate balance. On the one hand, you don't want to undersell Linux apps, because if people here OpenOffice doesn't have the same functionality as Office, they may think they can't even do simple formatting and simple stuff (or even intermediate stuff) in Office. On the other hand, what you're saying is also true--OOo shouldn't be hyped up for the minority of users who really do make use of Office's full functionality.

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 02:53 AM
Linux has always been on my servers and hobby machines
Sure. That's entirely sensible and appropriate. As a core server OS it's fine and as a functional, multipurpose personal desktop it's a hobby, largely by and for hobbyists.

It's also very interesting as a (somewhat aberrant) social phenomenon, which is why marketers and sociologists like Douglas Rushkoff study Linux users, with profitably exploitable but not very flattering conclusions -- but that's another thread. ;-)

DarkManX4lf
July 12th, 2005, 03:30 AM
i dunno, i really cant complain about windows, since i didnt pay for it, yes thats right i pirated windows. I pity those who actually go and purchase windows xp home or professional or w/e...

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 03:47 AM
i dunno, i really cant complain about windows, since i didnt pay for it, yes thats right i pirated windows.
Sure, and so did about 99% of the users outside the US and Europe, where people always see such a great Third World future for open source and Linux.

Those people don't care. You can buy professionally hacked and packaged latest-edition MS product in the local language for under US$5 a pop in any good town marketplace, and local law enforcement will never do anything about it because it's frequently not even illegal in theory, and not even remotely so in enforced practice.

poptones
July 12th, 2005, 04:12 AM
You can buy professionally hacked and packaged latest-edition MS product in the local language for under US$5 a pop in any good town marketplace, and local law enforcement will never do anything about it because it's frequently not even illegal in theory, and not even remotely so in enforced practice.

"Not illegal in theory?" It's either illegal or it's not. What "theory" are you talking about here?

Those poor, underdeveloped countries are increasingly figuring out that when they pirate that corporate software they are just making themselvesmore dependant upon the economic system that has been exploiting them to very unfair advantage - a lesson that many of those more advantaged westerners with their attitudes of entitlement still haven't figured out.

Pirating windows doesn't make you clever, it doesn't show how you "fight the man." It just makes you a hang-around-the-fort indian... and, like them, part of a doomed culture.

DarkManX4lf
July 12th, 2005, 04:31 AM
"Not illegal in theory?" It's either illegal or it's not. What "theory" are you talking about here?

Those poor, underdeveloped countries are increasingly figuring out that when they pirate that corporate software they are just making themselvesmore dependant upon the economic system that has been exploiting them to very unfair advantage - a lesson that many of those more advantaged westerners with their attitudes of entitlement still haven't figured out.

Pirating windows doesn't make you clever, it doesn't show how you "fight the man." It just makes you a hang-around-the-fort indian... and, like them, part of a doomed culture.


umm, so in that case instead of actually knowing that i am using pirated windows, pretend i am using linux instead, problem solved, its the samething.

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 04:34 AM
"Not illegal in theory?" It's either illegal or it's not. What "theory" are you talking about here?
That copyright law protects all commercial software everywhere and is somehow univeral. It's not.


Those poor, underdeveloped countries are increasingly figuring out that when they pirate that corporate software they are just making themselvesmore dependant upon the economic system that has been exploiting them to very unfair advantage - a lesson that many of those more advantaged westerners with their attitudes of entitlement still haven't figured out.

Pirating windows doesn't make you clever, it doesn't show how you "fight the man." It just makes you a hang-around-the-fort indian... and, like them, part of a doomed culture.
OK, let's cut to the chase here:

I'm some ragged user in Churkastan and I can either get a CD from my buddy for an OS that works or I can get a CD from a buddy for an OS that doesn't work.

Which CD "oppresses" me more?

bedouin
July 12th, 2005, 04:40 AM
umm, so in that case instead of actually knowing that i am using pirated windows, pretend i am using linux instead, problem solved, its the samething.
Microsoft likes you to pirate their software, it's free PR. If it weren't for pimply-faced kids running BBS's on warezed versions of DOS 6.2 Microsoft probably wouldn't be where they are today.

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 04:59 AM
Microsoft likes you to pirate their software, it's free PR. If it weren't for pimply-faced kids running BBS's on warezed versions of DOS 6.2 Microsoft probably wouldn't be where they are today.
Absolutely, "the Network Effect." The early software that prevailed over competing products did so at least largely by lax anti-duplication measures.

The object has never been to sell every copy, but to achieve product ubiquity as quickly as possible by any means and thereafter sell as progressively higher a percentage of the product in actual use as possible without decreasing its overall domination.

The precise level of anti-piracy-countermeasure effectiveness that is desirable is an incredibly complex and secret corporate calculation.

The only reason this is not officially admitted as accepted policy and that these periodic anti-piracy flaps ever come up in the first place is as an obligatory show of due dilligence to protect existing copyright. It's a total and complete figleaf. Everyone in the mass-market software business knows this and has since at least the early '80s.

DarkManX4lf
July 12th, 2005, 05:03 AM
Microsoft likes you to pirate their software, it's free PR. If it weren't for pimply-faced kids running BBS's on warezed versions of DOS 6.2 Microsoft probably wouldn't be where they are today.


im sorry, what is PR and BBS, i am one of these "pimply faced" kids as you label me.

i dont see how pirating windows, is helping microsoft. I (who pirate windows) do not tell anyone to do so, or do i tell them "windows is great go buy it, and the software made for it".

bedouin
July 12th, 2005, 05:07 AM
im sorry, what is PR and BBS, i am one of these "pimply faced" kids as you label me.

i dont see how pirating windows, is helping microsoft. I (who pirate windows) do not tell anyone to do so, or do i tell them "windows is great go buy it, and the software made for it".
PR = Public Relations

BBS's, you need to learn about in their entirety. Buy this (http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/).

DarkManX4lf
July 12th, 2005, 05:09 AM
PR = Public Relations

BBS's, you need to learn about in their entirety. Buy this (http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/).


that link doesnt work, ah Bulletin Board System?

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 05:16 AM
im sorry, what is PR and BBS, i am one of these "pimply faced" kids as you label me.
You've never heard of a BBS?

Jeeze, thanks for making me feel REALLLLLY old. :neutral:

So, let me guess... You never connected to Usenet through a store & forward local system on a CP/M machine via a Western Electric telephone handset wedged into the rubber cups of a 300-baud acoustic coupler modem?

Call me "Grandpa," I guess...

poptones
July 12th, 2005, 05:22 AM
The only reason this is not officially admitted as accepted policy and that these periodic anti-piracy flaps ever come up in the first place is as an obligatory show of due dilligence to protect existing copyright.

Mmmmno. There is no obligation on the part of the copyright holder to "protect copyright." You are thinking of trademark law, which requires the holder to take steps to protect the trademark from becoming ubiquitous - which would, of course, dilute its value as a trademark rendering it meaningless.

Microsoft cannot acknowledge this practice because it would open them to liability to every other company they have licensed technology from, and because it would make them vulnerable to prosecution for violating anti-dumping laws.


I'm some ragged user in Churkastan and I can either get a CD from my buddy for an OS that works or I can get a CD from a buddy for an OS that doesn't work.

I use linux all the time. It works very well - better than windows, in fact, and I do some pretty advanced stuff with it.

If you are from "Churkastan" the odds are pretty good Windows doesn't even speak your language, so unless you're one of those well educated bilingual peasants it's definitely not going to "work for you." Linux, on the other hand, supports some very obscure languages. Even a klingon could use linux... can't you?

poptones
July 12th, 2005, 05:38 AM
umm, so in that case instead of actually knowing that i am using pirated windows, pretend i am using linux instead, problem solved, its the samething.

Hey, it means nothing to me. But if you're going to speak out about how great it is to pirate windows and help spread corporate culture I have every right to point out how you really have zero allies in that antisocial behavior. The corporations certainly aren't going to defend software piracy, nor is anyone who truly respects the rights of creative people.

Intellectual property rights do not have to be about oppression. People can choose to distribute their creative output how they see fit - just like any other form of property. There are good players and there are bad. But no one has to be reliant on the bad players. This isn't like some peasant stealing bread to feed his family: there is an entire ecosystem here that will keep you well fed; there's no nobility in stealing hamburgers from mcdonald's just because you're too lazy to cook.

DarkManX4lf
July 12th, 2005, 05:47 AM
You've never heard of a BBS?

Jeeze, thanks for making me feel REALLLLLY old.

So, let me guess... You never connected to Usenet through a store & forward local system on a CP/M machine via a Western Electric telephone handset wedged into the rubber cups of a 300-baud acoustic coupler modem?

Call me "Grandpa," I guess...

sorry hehe, i dont mean tomake you feel old, i have heard of the BulletinBoard System, i justnever heard of it in BBS, st upid of me not to put it together. but yea i havent done all that rubber cuppy thing you were talking about.

DarkManX4lf
July 12th, 2005, 05:49 AM
Hey, it means nothing to me. But if you're going to speak out about how great it is to pirate windows and help spread corporate culture I have every right to point out how you really have zero allies in that antisocial behavior. The corporations certainly aren't going to defend software piracy, nor is anyone who truly respects the rights of creative people.



nah i wasnt saying how great it is to pirate windows, i was just "saying" that i cant complain, like other linux users do (or windows users) on how bad windows is, i f iwere a person who actually bought windows and found out how much it would suck i then would have a right to complain.


but seriously tho, i dont see how pirating windows can help make windows "better" could you explain that to me?

polo_step
July 12th, 2005, 06:03 AM
Mmmmno. There is no obligation on the part of the copyright holder to "protect copyright." You are thinking of trademark law, which requires the holder to take steps to protect the trademark from becoming ubiquitous - which would, of course, dilute its value as a trademark rendering it meaningless.
That's not what my lawyers tell me. "Trademark," "trade dress" and copyright have to be defended with due dilligence, though the legal consequences of demonstrably not doing so differ widely between each -- from having tradedress explicitly lapse into public domain to simply undermining all future civil cases of infringement -- though in any complex product such as Windows, there are simultaneously elements of trademark, trade dress and copyright, combined in a situation of substantial legal complexity.


I use linux all the time. It works very well - better than windows, in fact, and I do some pretty advanced stuff with it.

If you are from "Churkastan" the odds are pretty good Windows doesn't even speak your language, so unless you're one of those well educated bilingual peasants it's definitely not going to "work for you." Linux, on the other hand, supports some very obscure languages. Even a klingon could use linux... can't you?
In a word, no. Or at least not effectively.

Note that I am not some ragged Churka, either, but a computer user and builder of over twenty years daily experience working on a brand new, relatively modern dedicated Linux box with nominally (and I stress that term!) Linux supported hardware, a fast DSL connection to download and install a seemingly endless stream of updates, installations and who knows what all from various manually unblocked repositories, and a competent native English speaker who has net access to the presumably expert and helpful Linux userbase. I also have no life or obligations impinging on my free time and am reasonably stubborn in trying to get to the bottom of technical puzzles.

Lacking all that, or even most of that -- as any hapless Third World newbie would most certainly be -- how dead in the water would I be with a Linux installation CD compared to a commercial Windows bootleg from Russia, China or Israel ported to my local vernacular?

Pretty doggone, stinkin' dead, I'd say.

poptones
July 12th, 2005, 06:58 AM
You cannot use linux at all? I have nothing to say in response. I'm flabbergasted. I cannot imagine your assertion to be anything more than a troll. I know children who have no problem using linux; I know people with minimal education who are able to use linux. Congratulations to you if you are serious, you are truly a rarity.

Edit: OK, I looked at your other posts and I don't find any real insight into what problems might be preventing you from making productive use of this software. Why don't you make a thread outlining ALL the problems you are having? No one can help if you don't ask.


That's not what my lawyers tell me. "Trademark," "trade dress" and copyright have to be defended with due dilligence,

There is no obligation upon a copyright holder - or a patent holder - to enforce the monopoly granted them by the government. Anyone granted such monopoly can enforce their rights as they choose. In fact, you actually have to put forth effort in order to rebuke your copyright (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sup_01_17_10_2.html).

You need new lawyers.

darkmatter
July 12th, 2005, 07:17 AM
Congrats!!! An excellent article. :)

poptones
July 12th, 2005, 07:30 AM
but seriously tho, i dont see how pirating windows can help make windows "better" could you explain that to me?

If you use windows then you also use windows software. Your use of windows adds one more to the base of users. We all impact the people around us; if you are pirating windows then you are sending the message to others around you that this is a socially normative behavior. They in turn are more likely to accept it. And all of you, by your use of windows, are influencing others - those you send word documents to, for example, to use windows as well. Your use of windows, as an indivdual, helps drive demand for others to use it as well. This is the very basis of that whole "Microsoft Monopoly." Google it and see, this is what the court itself said.

Also, If you are using your computer online then you are very likely downloading windows software on a regular basis, which rewards the operators of those websites via your demographic impact. If you are participating in forums you are participating in social organizations and communities in which the use of windows is common and perhaps even piracy of windows software is common, hence you would then be contributing to a social atmosphere that is harmful to the entire creative community.

Can you not understand the very simple fact that we all influence those around us? Culture is what we are.

How about if it was racism? What if I were on here using inflammatory racist language. Do you think people would not be offended? Do you think it would be tolerated? Yet in the US at least it is very much my right to be a bigot and to openly express that bigotry.

It is what we are willing to tolerate. Culture begins with each individual.

polo_step
July 13th, 2005, 12:46 AM
You cannot use linux at all?
No, it works, and it works adequately for some stuff, but it has an immense number of hassles, and doesn't work at all for a lot of the things I need.

If I need it to do something that it can't, then it's no good to me, and I have to have another OS and a system that works.

That's why so many people never quite manage to make a full migration to Linux, and Linux is merely a redundant hobby box or dual-boot novelty for them.

> Why don't you make a thread outlining ALL the problems you are having? No one can help if you don't ask.

There are so incredibly many incidental flukes, failures and whatnot I've noticed that I couldn't remember or duplicate them adequately to give descriptions meaningful enough to get help, if it were available, which it largely isn't. Something I've noticed before in using very complex software, and that's that the userbase will only give you about 20%-25% of the information you need, and if you ask too many questions people stop answering any of them. That's about what I'm seeing with Linux so far. The so-called "Linux community" promotes a wildly self-congratulatory image of itself as giving infinite wisdom and support to new users, but that's very largely a fiction, in my disinterested observation of it over the past four or five years. The new user will get about as much practical userbase support as he will getting squared away in, say, Cubase. Some, and well-meaning, but probably not enough.

Nobody here has, for example, been able to tell me why my supported webcam doesn't work properly, or the GnuPG plugin causes wildly flambouyant system crashes with Evolution Mail, or why Konqueror crashed all the time in Kubuntu, or why gXine's full-screen mode crashes the system, or a putatively functional nVidia driver's showing up as "tainting" or "corrupting" (I can't remember which) the kernel, or a number of other things -- and these are just from the relatively tiny number of problems I've encountered that I've actually asked about. I have gotten a lot of "boilerplate" sort of help for stuff that new users typically have a hard time finding, and that's great -- but every new user seems to encounter new nosebleeds that nobody can figure out or cares to explain.


There is no obligation upon a copyright holder - or a patent holder - to enforce the monopoly granted them by the government. Anyone granted such monopoly can enforce their rights as they choose.
That's not true in practice. Copyright may exist, yet in practical terms be civilly (and paradoxically) indefensible against infringement, and that situation can happen in a number of ways. According to my lawyers, if a defendant in an infringement case can demontrate to the court a pattern of identical infringements known to and tolerated by the plaintiff, the odds of getting a successful or significant judgment against that defendant are greatly reduced. Of course, all this is volatile; some of the recent trade dress (yes, I know that this is a different situation than with copyright, but the underlying principles are similar) cases and their outcomes are quite astonishing -- such as ignoring totally undefended and pervasive infringement of trade dress by an entire industry for over fifty years to retroactively establish it for the plaintiff.

Courts can do whatever they wish. Victims can appeal. ;-)

polo_step
July 13th, 2005, 01:10 AM
If you use windows then you also use windows software. Your use of windows adds one more to the base of users.
And that has substantial positive commercial value.

A lot of people don't want to understand this, but it doesn't make it untrue.

Anyone who doesn't get it needs to go back to one of my previous messages. It's as perfect a short explanation as you're going to find of what a software marketer wishes to accomplish. Product ubiquity is extremely valuable on many levels to the marketer and developer. It is THE initial goal, even at the expense of making a profit.

The part that hasn't been mentioned here is product ubiquity is more advantageous to the user than the marketer. There is a larger knowledge base, a larger base of experienced users, more support, etc., blah, which is why for purely practical purposes it's much more advantageous to use the dominant software, even if it's initially somewhat inferior. The more people who are using the software, the better it will become.

One of the largest problems facing Linux is its relatively small user base. Coupled with its relative absence of development funding, a small user base directly translates to a longer period in finding, understanding and repairing its huge array of problems and incompatibilities.

This is why, if I were limited to a single OS box that had to work for me, completely and ASAP, I would of course unhesitatingly use Windows over Linux. In fact, I wouldn't even consider Linux...which was my point about the Churka and village-market MS bootlegs.

poptones
July 13th, 2005, 02:33 AM
The part that hasn't been mentioned here is product ubiquity is more advantageous to the user than the marketer.

No, this is not an unqualified truth. I think you need to read that ruling as well.

If a technology is ubiquitous to the exclusion of a competetive market then that "ubiquity" puts the entire market at the mercy of one monopolist. This was demonstrated well in the case of US Steel and even in the case of MS. In the case of USS it allowed them to raise prices and control the market as it saw fit; in the case of MS that "ubiquity" ensured they did not have to compete with the lower priced, more compelling products (ie Amiga) that tried to compete with it.

it also resulted in a technology monoculture that is now causing the yearly loss of Billions of dollars of productivity as well as enabling rampant online illegal activity.


One of the largest problems facing Linux is its relatively small user base. Coupled with its relative absence of development funding, a small user base directly translates to a longer period in finding, understanding and repairing its huge array of problems and incompatibilities.

Wow... the reality of the present proves this entirely incorrect. When there is a vulnerability discovered in a system a patch is most often released within hours of the finding. The competition, on the other hand, often ignores problems entirely. They often allow the defect to exist "in the wild" for months - all but ensuring such potentially small problems escalate into real and common exploits.

Regarding innovation, I take it you have not seen the "leaked" Longhorn screenshots? The gnome project began after the introduction of windows 95 and has now evolved to the leading edge of desktop development. Microsoft has invested Billions into development of its desktop, yet a product that relies completely on "donation from the community" is now a strong competitor - and has achieved that level in half the development time. Linux development is now at the point of setting the pace for others to follow. The most meaningful distance between OSS and the corporate alternatives is no longer technological but one of marketing. And the ease with which small manufacturers can enter into new markets will ensure OSS (and linux) continues to grow in prevalence and, likewise, in "brand recognition."

And, on that, I'll remind you a third time: "trade dress" is not copyright. Look at the case of ASCAP vs. the Girl Scouts of America (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/is03/Readings/Zittrain_1.pdf) and see why you never hear "Happy Birthday" on Tv any more...

poptones
July 13th, 2005, 05:12 AM
There are so incredibly many incidental flukes, failures and whatnot I've noticed that I couldn't remember or duplicate them adequately to give descriptions meaningful enough to get help, if it were available, which it largely isn't.

Not true. There's all sorts of help. But if you don't ask then you can be sure no one will help. And if you don't participate how are you going to establish the relationships with people of knowledge? For example, I thought I answered your question about pan and your comments before my reply sounded as if you had found the previous discussion I and others had on the topic. But since my last post you gave no feedback at all. Did my answer help? Without your feedback I have no way of knowing whether my response to you would be worthy of inclusion in some relevant documentation... something you well know pan is completely lacking.

Understand? Simply asking questions helps promote progress. If you are lost and not asking questions then you are not only holding yourself back but the rest as well.


The so-called "Linux community" promotes a wildly self-congratulatory image of itself as giving infinite wisdom and support to new users, but that's very largely a fiction, in my disinterested observation of it over the past four or five years. The new user will get about as much practical userbase support as he will getting squared away in, say, Cubase. Some, and well-meaning, but probably not enough.

Look, I'm trying to find out how to talk to the varioous parts of the desktop via dbus so I can trigger metafile refreshes in nautilus from a bash script without going through python or some such. You think that's easy? It's taken me days just to figure out WHO I might need to ask about this.

But the information is out there. When you are in over your head you have only two choices: swim or drown. This is the basis of much of that "support" you are lamenting. You have to ask questions. If you think people are getting sick of hearing from you then you should work harder at establishing support relationships. That's how any community works - "so called" or otherwise.


Nobody here has, for example, been able to tell me why my supported webcam doesn't work properly, or the GnuPG plugin causes wildly flambouyant system crashes with Evolution Mail, or why Konqueror crashed all the time in Kubuntu, or why gXine's full-screen mode crashes the system, or a putatively functional nVidia driver's showing up as "tainting" or "corrupting" (I can't remember which) the kernel, or a number of other things

The nvidia driver is "tainting" your kernel because it is not open source. In this realm a "tainted kernel" means your kernel cannot be fully trusted because it contains some amount of unsupported software. In your case and mine, this is due to the manufacturer supplied nvidia driver. It doesn't mean your kernel is necessarily corrupt although it does mean the task of troubleshooting can be made that much harder because we are working with at least one unkown entity.

Have you tried warty? Warty came OOTB with a well functioning open source nvidia driver. It doesn't provide all the 3d capabilities of nvidia's driver but it DOES work and it is supportable. And seeing how your system behaves under warty could, maybe, help. If you are getting all these crashes I cannot imagine it NOT being a hardware or driver issue, it would be helpful to know if the system can perform with (what I regard, anyway) the most stable and reliable ubuntu release to date.

The gnupg plugin has some documented problems with Evolution. I use thunderbird with gpg and have never had a problem. Have you tried thunderbird? I very much prefer it, gpg or not.

Konq crashing... well, I dunno. I stopped using it for a lot of reasons, that may well have been one of them.

I HOPE you appreciate this. :roll: I just realized Dakota Fanning is on Leno and I have now missed half her appearance typing this response to you. Later. :)

ubuntu_demon
July 13th, 2005, 10:03 AM
nice article!

just something for everyone to keep in mind :

being anti-Microsoft / hating microsoft is not something you should start with when you are trying to "convert" people.

Also it's very important to only try to "convert" people who :
come to you OR could be able to do everything in linux that they are doing in windows (so don't try to convert people who need some specific application because if they are n00bs they will hold it against linux)

finally some nice links. Please take a look at :

http://www.go-opensource.org
http://www.theopencd.org

ecadre
July 13th, 2005, 12:01 PM
Nobody here has, for example, been able to tell me ..... why Konqueror crashed all the time in Kubuntu,


People didn't tell you why? Well, probably not, this is not a developers forum, try the KDE CVS, talk to their developers, learn about QT and you might find out precisely WHY.

If you wanted discussion from ordinary users about Konqueror crashes in Kubuntu, then you would have found lots on these boards. I found the solution very easy, I upgraded to KDE 3.4.1b (packaged by Johnathan Riddell).

I got that help, and suggestion on these boards. I found the Konqueror crash bug irritating, but nowhere near a show-stopper.

jimcooncat
July 13th, 2005, 12:23 PM
I think the article makes valid points, but the tone is definitely "preaching to the choir." That is, someone who doesn't already share the viewpoint probably would be turned off within the first paragraph. I know I would if I had read it in the late 90's.

My challenge is to convert a small business to LTSP so we can keep hardware cheap and licensing costs down. My coworkers have used only Windows for years, and haven't been exposed to Linux software. My job is to keep their stations running and them concentrating on the work, not computing. They don't see the hassles I go through to keep their environment productive, and don't understand that administering nine individual Windows systems is almost nine times the work of managing their one home system. By the way, being the office technician is only one aspect of my job, and isn't limited to just computers.

So except for my boss (who loves to squeeze a penny) they don't see why anyone would want something different than Microsoft. It works for them, so why change? Everybody else uses it, so if they use something different, won't they have problems with collaboration? What makes Linux so great that they should have to learn something new?

I'd love to see articles that are pro-Linux but not anti-Microsoft. It would be fine to show the advantages issue-by-issue, like apt-get upgrade vs. Windows Update. Aren't we good enough to show our progress in computing without having to bash the competition? If anyone can point me to articles like that, I'd be very appreciative.

There will come a point soon that, except for support from the gaming vendors, good Linux distributions will surpass Windows in every aspect of the normal user's experience. Regular users care little about anti-competitive practices and free vs. nonfree formats. Bashing the company that has provided them their only computing experience for years will not win us friends.

Bedouin, I don't mean to come across harshly on your article, and certainly would like you to continue to write more. Please consider that it just isn't what I need, and more articles being published with the appearance of zealotry work against what I'm trying to accomplish. Probably a lot of people trying to convert their friends, family, and workplaces are in the same situation.

poptones
July 13th, 2005, 03:58 PM
show the advantages issue-by-issue, like apt-get upgrade vs. Windows Update.

I honestly don't see how that would help you except for talking with your boss. if the people in your office are all doing their own "upgrades" and patches it's no wonder you're feeling overworked. You should be the only one deploying this stuff to a bunch of locked down user desktops, so from their POV it makes no difference whether that's done with "add new program" or "apt-get update."

Much of the resistance you are going to get from users in an office setting is going to be due to their fearing a loss of control. People working in offices spend a good deal of their time NOT working but screwing around on game websites, shopping, looking for music and movies (no broadband at home) and generally just "playing." When they hear you talking about putting them on linux they know it's not going to be so easy to install the little gadgets and toys they love and they will react like anyone else fearing a loss of control over some part of their personal space. So in this regard your job is not to address their technical concerns, but their social concerns. You need to get the boss behind you so you have a "bad cop" to remind them they are here to work, and you can take them aside and assure them you will provide them with the most friendly desktop possible within his guidelines. But you also have to remind the boss that he is an "employee" too and needsto set a good example by also embracing the changes.

If you have a machine to spare, setting up the boss with a special "pilot deployment" will go a long way in all this. If you make the experience a positive one for the boss that person will be your advocate not just in the office but outside as well, especially if there is a positive impact on the bottom line from the switch. That will also make YOU a lot more valuable :)


Aren't we good enough to show our progress in computing without having to bash the competition? If anyone can point me to articles like that, I'd be very appreciative.

But what are you doing? accounting? TV production? medical billing? It makes a difference. I haven't found a thing you can do in windows that you cannot do in linux, but exactly how it's accomplished can vary dramatically depending on your software needs.

aysiu
July 13th, 2005, 05:13 PM
So except for my boss (who loves to squeeze a penny) they don't see why anyone would want something different than Microsoft. It works for them, so why change? Everybody else uses it, so if they use something different, won't they have problems with collaboration? What makes Linux so great that they should have to learn something new? Frankly--and maybe this is just the pragmastic in me--I don't see why you should have to convince your co-workers. If the boss buys into trying Linux, doesn't the boss have the final say? People grumble and whine about any change, but tough noogies!

At my workplace, we're undergoing a database migration that affects the entire company. It's a big pain for everybody. It's a really big pain. Do people whine? Yes. Does it matter? Not really. Because the powers that be decided we're migrating.

If your boss says "We're moving to Linux," you're moving. You can always try to console people by saying there will be a little bit of a learning curve, but you'll still have your basic office applications, email, and web browser. Nevertheless, I don't think your workplace is a majority rule... is it?

aysiu
July 14th, 2005, 01:21 AM
I'd love to see articles that are pro-Linux but not anti-Microsoft. It would be fine to show the advantages issue-by-issue, like apt-get upgrade vs. Windows Update. Aren't we good enough to show our progress in computing without having to bash the competition? If anyone can point me to articles like that, I'd be very appreciative. I just wrote one (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxwindowscomparison.php). It's a bit rough around the edges, but I haven't had a chance to proofread it or revise it. I definitely put a pro-Linux spin on it, but I also tried to be fair.

poofyhairguy
July 14th, 2005, 01:31 AM
I just wrote one (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxwindowscomparison.php). It's a bit rough around the edges, but I haven't had a chance to proofread it or revise it. I definitely put a pro-Linux spin on it, but I also tried to be fair.

A: Good job overall. What about dial up people?

B: Formatting is off at the end...

C: Sounds like you really need a reinstall with all that crashing. Is it a certain program that does it? The only way Linux is unstable for me is when I use xcompmgr

aysiu
July 14th, 2005, 02:43 AM
A: Good job overall. What about dial up people?

B: Formatting is off at the end...

C: Sounds like you really need a reinstall with all that crashing. Is it a certain program that does it? The only way Linux is unstable for me is when I use xcompmgr Yeah, I haven't proofread it yet. I'll have to make sure the HTML is clean. Maybe I'll have to qualify that crashing thing. I mean, it doesn't happen that often. When it does happen, though, it's pretty bad--I can't do anything.

jimcooncat
July 14th, 2005, 11:52 AM
Thanks for the responses!

aysiu
If the boss buys into trying Linux, doesn't the boss have the final say? People grumble and whine about any change, but tough noogies! ... If your boss says "We're moving to Linux," you're moving. ... Nevertheless, I don't think your workplace is a majority rule... is it? I've worked in many different settings, and as far as simple changes go, you're correct. But this is not a simple change. I've seen unpopular decrees from above fail in the workplace before (at other companies). It ain't pretty.


There's an underlying feeling that using Linux software will result in not being able to serve the customer adequately.
My coworkers have as much pull as I do in bending the boss's ear. They may be inclined to try to bend it back.
I can't do this quickly or without their support if we mean to stay productive during the transition, and take advantage of the new tools available to be more productive.


poptones
You should be the only one deploying this stuff to a bunch of locked down user desktops, so from their POV it makes no difference whether that's done with "add new program" or "apt-get update." Excellent insights throughout your post! Except I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say on this one little item -- I was just trying to come up with a concrete example of one of the things I appreciate Ubuntu for over Windows.

Even that brings up a good point, though. Our present system is not locked down from users installing programs. Over the years I've tried to keep things flexible in this regard, but lately it doesn't work because there's too much crap people install without researching how the download affects other parts of the system, or if they're getting it from reliable sources without added malware.

So our changes will not only be from Windows to Linux, but from a wide open free-for-all to a somewhat locked-down environment. Thanks to Ubuntu I think I can provide that without it feeling limited to the users.


If you have a machine to spare, setting up the boss with a special "pilot deployment" will go a long way in all this. I had to replace my Gentoo-based email server recently, so I set up an Ubuntu install on a larger machine. I added the desktops apps as well, so this machine will double as a demo.

I'll be ordering two larger machines for application servers -- one for production, and one as identical offline backup hardware, doubling as a test environment. I'll finally be able to test new software and upgrades before deploying into our production environment. I'm very enthused, it will be almost professional!


When they hear you talking about putting them on linux they know it's not going to be so easy to install the little gadgets and toys they love and they will react like anyone else fearing a loss of control over some part of their personal space. Actually this is one item that will work out much for the better with Ubuntu. It won't take me very long to make available lots of alternative diversions (like flash games) that I won't have to worry about destroying the system -- well, too much anyway. I am concerned about bandwidth, though, and need to look into Quality of Service setups.


But what are you doing? accounting? TV production? medical billing? It makes a difference... It sure does. We have the same requirements of many small businesses: word processing, accounting, financial analysis. We're also starting to do our own web publishing.

I think we'll find that most small businesses have a very similar subset of applications they share. Outlook and Quickbooks will be large hurdles for businesses in our area during a conversion away from Windows. Neither program has adequate export abilities for all the data they hold in their proprietary storage formats.

The other big hurdle is publishing workflow. I've seen so many approaches, and most companies will take applications and modify them to their needs with homegrown macros and plugging data in fields that's not meant for that data. For example, putting "USA" and "Canada" in an application's field labeled "Website" because it doesn't provide a "Country" field. These homegrown workarounds are a nightmare because they need to be rebuilt in a sane way using different (hopefully better) methods. Surprisingly, they seem to be all publishing related in some way, whether it's a mail-merge setup or website updating.

aysiu
I just wrote one. It's a bit rough around the edges, but I haven't had a chance to proofread it or revise it. I definitely put a pro-Linux spin on it, but I also tried to be fair. Awesome!!! Anyone following this thread should read this! The link again: A Linux/Windows Comparison (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxwindowscomparison.php)

krdp
July 15th, 2005, 11:34 PM
pretty good essay. There has been some recent blogs about this type of issue see here (http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/008499.html) and here (http://www.onemogin.com/blog/?p=227).

ghostnet
June 10th, 2006, 06:05 AM
i dunno, i really cant complain about windows, since i didnt pay for it, yes thats right i pirated windows. I pity those who actually go and purchase windows xp home or professional or w/e...

I pity those who try to justify theivery.

grte
June 10th, 2006, 04:34 PM
With regards to the original article: Very well done, you have a very readable writing style. However, I would strongly recommend giving the article to a friend for some editing before submitting it for publication anywhere.


nah i wasnt saying how great it is to pirate windows, i was just "saying" that i cant complain, like other linux users do (or windows users) on how bad windows is, i f iwere a person who actually bought windows and found out how much it would suck i then would have a right to complain.


but seriously tho, i dont see how pirating windows can help make windows "better" could you explain that to me?

To use a timely analogy, think of this in terms of the next generation of video game consoles. When new consoles are released, the companies who sell them always sell them for a lower price then it cost to build the unit. This is because the money is not in the console itself - it's in the video games you can run on it. The more consoles sold, the more games you can sell, and so companies will sell their consoles at a loss to get as many out there.

It's the same for Windows. Sure, Microsoft makes some cash from Windows. But their real bread and butter is Office, or their games division. So for them, pirating is good - It doesn't really cost them anything, as someone who pirates Windows probably wouldn't buy it anyways. And for every copy of Windows out there, they have a chance to sell a copy of Office, Halo, Mechwarrior, or what have you.

yager
June 10th, 2006, 07:50 PM
All these years later and, frankly, I'm still in shock over that one.

Well articulated article. Good work!

I second that. I owned an Amiga 1000 and it was the greatest computer. The potential was immense and Commodore killed it.

The Mac was still Black and White, IBM and the clones did not have a viable GUI and forget about the hardware capabilities.

The Mac had very good sound and was fine for desktop publishing but that was about it. (No attacks, I was paid to write graphics software on the Mac and it was no fun. Lets see...., I have 512 by 512 pixels that I can set as Black or White or Black?...., Wow I'm getting somewhere now!!! The boss is going to love this....... He actually did love the final product.)

The IBM/clones could barely do anything graphical. If you wanted anything over 640x200 and one color, you had to invest in a graphics card that cost almost as much as the stinking computer and even then, you had to hunt for software that could use the card. (Again, no attacks, I was paid to support 20 engineers with calculations and presentations including slides and overheads by using an IBM XT, a VAX terminal and a color graphics IBM mainframe terminal (sweet graphics).) There were no real games at that time unless you prefer books to movies for your action thrillers. (Trivia question: how many different color pallettes were available in the CGA graphics card and was it possible to assign the particular colors in that pallette? ) If you wanted real graphics, you worked with Apollo or Sun systems that were out of the reach of the average consumer. Oh and the sound...... Not even gonna go there.


But the Amiga...... It had stereo sound running on its own sound chip. Each channel could overlay 2 streams on the fly.

For graphics, it could display 640x400 in 32 colors (later to 64 with halfbrite)
http://spreadpoint.com/o-scene/graphics/amiga-classics.html

and a special HAM mode that allowed almost photo realistic images. Check this animation out.
http://www.randelshofer.ch/animations/anims/eric_w_schwartz/AmigaHopAnim.HAMVE.html

There was even free ray tracing software the allowed you to create your own images that were stunning at the time. It had a special graphics processor chip that took care of animating BLOBS on the screen as well as sprites. so the main processor could work on more important things than moving pixels around.

All of this was also directly compatible with your TV, so you could actually create videos that you could play on your television and with the advent of the Video Toaster and other hardware, you could put those videos into live video and create real movies. There were actual broadcast TV shows that depended on the Amiga for the computer effects in their intros and even interaction with the live actors.

Andy Worhol, Debra Harry other celebrities had one ..... This was in 1987!!!!!! WHAT HAPPENED?????

And all of this was before Al Gore invented the internet.

(Trivia question answer: 4 pallettes with 4 fixed colors. And the color combos that were picked.... well lets say there was not a decent pallette available unless the intention was to induce illness.)

SniperSlap
January 12th, 2007, 01:41 PM
I like the article. However it seems sparse and still doesn't provide enough information.

The problem seems more like the fact that people who use Windows out of a lack of technical knowledge won't know where or what http://ubuntuforums.org is. The concept of an alternative hasn't even reached them yet.

When I think about my mom, step dad or whoever else using Linux, I kind of figure they wouldn't be able to handle it. Ubuntu goes leaps and bounds towards making it a viable option. But Linux just isn't ready yet. I only half mean that though, see, my fiancee uses Ubuntu just fine. But I'm around to help her every now & again with problems.

I always maintain an informal list of things in the back of my mind that needs to happen before Linux and the programs that commonly run on it dominate:


When the OS and the applications largely made to target Linux stop being these pipe dreams of systems programmers creating "back ends" so they can sit and wait for some skilled GUI designer to make "front ends", you'll see a bit more adoption.
When user interfaces improve and bugs pertaining to UI complaints actually get considered - or even fixed!
When the intricate specifics of the OS are properly and universally abstracted by a GUI.
A universal and commonly known accepted standard of program installation, settings management and file storage. You may cite FHS, but do you know how confused people get with that? Putting all your programs in shared installation directories is partially a great idea and partially a not so great idea. When it comes to installing Java applications, the confusion gets even worse. This could have a lot to do with /etc and perhaps creating standards of what shows up in it and where.
Stupid problems need to avail themselves properly. This problem can also be exacerbated by the nature of Linux architecture. When something goes wrong with my CD/DVD drive - which it does - I get no explanation. "Check dmesg", and other solutions that involve dropping to the low level, but I don't get an adequate idea of what I need to do next. So I limp along with a CD drive that I can only use by putting the disc in and rebooting. I'm good enough to fix it if I went into the plubming, read documentation and asked some questions, but I don't have the time!!
Games need to be made for Linux. While DirectX is still more appealing than OpenGL, I doubt you'll see much effort from the game makers to double their work, they're obsessed too much with money.
While we're being critical, take a look at the application GDesklets. This is something I really wish worked properly. While it does function from time to time, the program is far too unstable and underdeveloped to really be part of a wholesome OS diet. I could veto using it, but I want to use it as an example of the kinds of problems Linux apps suffer from. GTK-Gnutella is another one. I submitted a request to have GTK-Gnutella minimize to the system tray and was systematically "*******d" off. Great program, lousy interface.
Linux zealotry and elitism. Grrr....


Again, the list is informal and can likely contain more items. They just have to come to mind.

I don't really have a problem with Linux these days. Ubuntu makes things fairly painless. I would prefer to run a more optimized system with Gentoo, but maintaining a system like that would just consume too much of my time. That amount of maintenance needs to go down.

For someone of my skill level who is capable of running a bleeding edge Gentoo system, Ubuntu has reached a point of being day-to-day usable. It saves me time and hassle so that I can go back to doing more than system maintenance.
Leaps and bounds are being made each day. Adobe seems to finally recognize Linux, as are other companies. The Wine team has improved their program substancially, to the point where the mainstream can use it. GNOME is a terrific example of a UI trying to stabalize - hopefully that continues. NVidia has given Linux a lifeline by making really impressive drivers.

The political reasons of which the original poster for this thread spoke? To be honest, if people aren't interested in the first place, there is little you can do. Windows use is akin to an addiction. The cost and sacrifice of the addiction must outweigh their percieved benefit from use before they'll stop.

Tomosaur
January 12th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Nice article. I wrote one for a university exam (which was business based). I had to use a number of examples, and for one I wrote about Microsoft. I drew some parallels between Microsoft and genetic modification - ie: The problem with Microsoft's monopolistic tactics is that eventually - if we assumed that everyone would end up with Windows - we would ALL be susceptible to the exact same vulnerabilities. This is incredibly dangerous, and many people just can't afford adequate protection against it. All it takes is one particularly sneaky and malicious virus to propogate to enough machines, and then the tech industry goes kaput. We can't afford a monopoly in technology, since it controls the vast majority of what we as humans do today. We need to agree upon certain standards (although not all of them - standards tend to cripple innovation), let's say 'Every OS needs to supply a customisable and removable firewall', or 'Every OS needs to provide TCP/IP' or something like that. The social aspect of computing, ie - using the OS you like best, is important, but I think every OSs should be customisable anyway.

Blondie
January 12th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Great article..
You could also mention the courses such as ECDL and MCSE et al made by Microsoft to create further lock-in, so that everything is done the Microsoft way, instead of the general way.

ECDL is actually technically vendor neutral and there are ongoing ECDL courses and examinations using OpenOffice.org rather than Microsoft Office in at least Ireland, Romania and Austria (that I am aware of). The people behind ECDL are open to free software and have incorporated it into their standards for assessment. This doesn't of course mean that if you wanted to sit ECDL using OO.o that you'd be able to find somewhere to do it where you are, but that's supply and demand I'm afraid.

I do agree with your general point about MCSE, MOS etc. but in this area ECDL are actually good guys IMO so I had to chip in.

geekender
January 12th, 2007, 02:53 PM
You make several good points in your article. However, I would like to contend that while for the average desktop user that Linux may be a viable alternative, for the average corporate IT admin, Microsoft has a far superior product for software and desktop management via Active Directory. Even with Red Hat's Directory Services project, I have yet to see a comparable alternative to jump ship from Active Directory. Any thoughts or comments? I would truly like to try competing products.

dorcssa
January 12th, 2007, 03:10 PM
It's the same for Windows. Sure, Microsoft makes some cash from Windows. But their real bread and butter is Office, or their games division. So for them, pirating is good - It doesn't really cost them anything, as someone who pirates Windows probably wouldn't buy it anyways. And for every copy of Windows out there, they have a chance to sell a copy of Office, Halo, Mechwarrior, or what have you.

Do you really think that who is pirating windows will not pirate Office, or any othe apps which would cost money the other way? Many of my friends say, when I told them that Linux is free and have alternative apps, that why bother when win is free too, it's just 3 or 4 hundred megabytes to dowload, and everyone uses that. And it's the same with Office and many other apps like Nod for example. Many people in my country, who make a computer, doesn't even know that there is other OS than windows(or think about Linux as a mysterious OS for geeks), just get a copy of an xp pro (I heard that home sucks, never managed to see one, but a friend of my could, coz he bought a laptop, but he immadiately wiped it out and replaced with a pirated professional:D)

mahiyar
January 12th, 2007, 03:14 PM
Linux with Ubuntu has come a long long way as an alternative to windows. Three years ago I had tried dabbling with Linux using RHE 6.0, I removed it within weeks. This time when I installed Ubuntu (dual boot) it has persisted above a month, and I guess it will stay. But still there is a long way before it can be compared to windows for ease of use (lets accept the fact). I had to struggle getting my printer to work, setting up a multimedia player was another pain, then there was the problem of firefox crashing (flash), my scanner is simply not supported (no drivers), but I have overcome all those problems (except the scanner), and now I can proudly say that my Ubuntu works as well as windows and in some areas even better (quicker start and shut down, great R,RW speeds, and is generally a lot niftier). Perhaps it is a question of wrong expectations of new users to Linux, a very apt page which every new user should read is this http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm , simply put Linux is not Windows.

BTW a great thought provoking article.

blackstar
January 26th, 2007, 09:52 PM
after reading your artical i have in the past 5 minutes gone onto amazon and purchased a copy of Xandros Desktop OS 4 (Premium Home Edition) (Linux) to install instead of ms windows xp
1 thing
if i want to completley remve xp from my system how do i do this?
will installing the new OS reformat my harddrive?

koenn
January 27th, 2007, 01:48 PM
You make several good points in your article. However, I would like to contend that while for the average desktop user that Linux may be a viable alternative, for the average corporate IT admin, Microsoft has a far superior product for software and desktop management via Active Directory. Even with Red Hat's Directory Services project, I have yet to see a comparable alternative to jump ship from Active Directory. Any thoughts or comments? I would truly like to try competing products.

I'd say you suffer from a mild case of "wanting to do Windows things with Linux tools".
The question is not "which application in Linux is the replacement for Active Directory". Active directory is a means towards a managed environment. So the question is : how do I create a managed enviromment when using Linux as OS ? And the answer to that question depends on how you define and design your particular "managed environment".

You might find this more or less interesting : http://users.telenet.be/mydotcom/howto/linux/migration03.htm

koenn
January 27th, 2007, 02:14 PM
re the OP.
I liked the article -especially because it's written from a non-technical perspective. We've all seen our share of technical comparisons, TOC comparisons and "my OS is better that yours" discussions. Your essay points out there's other aspects to consider - quite refreshing, and I tend to agree with what you have to say about it.


t he proliferation of Windows has resulted in a widened acceptance of proprietary protocols and file formats, and an obsessive campaign of patenting, that if legally pursued, could hinder a number of both open and closed source projects that attempt cross-platform integration.
It's not just the proliferation and broad acceptance of proprietary protocols and file formats. That sounds as if it's just a side-effect, be it an undesirable one. I think it's safe to state that Microsoft actively uses this as a strategy : even with widely accepted standards the tend to extend and modify them, making them (at least partially) incompatible with the original standards, and to the unknowing user, it makes look "microsoft" superior to the "open standard". I think Microsoft's Java and xml could illustrate this.


Also, while I think you make valid points, I'm nut sure they'll actually appeal to the average user who wants a computer. It does make an interesting read for e.g. those people who need to decide on IT purchases for schools, businesses, governments, ...

xhaan
January 27th, 2007, 02:34 PM
I tried to tell some people about these things before and why I don't like Microsoft... and I basically get called an insane zealot and get told about how godlike Bill Gates is since he makes donations with his money and helps people in third world countries and such... and they tell me about how Microsoft eliminating their competition is just preserving the company's best interest and is standard business practice and blah blah blah...

I don't really want to be a socialist but it's starting to look better to me all the time.