Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

[bfledderjohn]

Today I read a post under the Application for Approval thread and being the Team Contact, it really made me think.

After some serious reflection, I felt that this needed to be addressed not only for this situation, but for the future as well. I will also give it even more thought and blog about this, and while this instance is significant in the US specifically, this has international implications with other political, theological, and even historical issues.

First let me give the background here. Lyz has expressed her misgivings about our LoCo participating with events with the Boy and Girl Scouts of America (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PennsylvaniaTeam/ApprovalApplication.com (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PennsylvaniaTeam/ApprovalApplication)). Specifically the Boy Scouts since they exclude homosexuals and atheists from their organization.

Here's the sticky wicket. As a LoCo we do not support any social or political organzation. Our sole purpose is to increase the penetration of Ubuntu and free (as in freedom) software and open source generally. We are not political, and we are not an instrument of social change. If we can do good by giving machines running Ubuntu to underprivileged families, schools, daycares, and nonprofits then we are achieving our goals and helping the world be a better place. BUT, we are not here to make judgments of the organizations that we may work with.

Do I agree with the policies fo the Boy Scouts who do not allow membership to atheists or homosexuals? No. But since they are a private organization, that is their right. Does that mean that we are supporting them by offering Ubuntu training to their scouts? In my mind, no. We are spreading Ubuntu to young minds who need to know there are options beyond Microsoft. And by giving them an option, perhaps we are opening their minds a bit to the fact that there are always differences in the world and that is what makes the world an exciting and wonderful place.

Now, as far as participation, I do not feel that any person should have to feel like they are being compelled to participate with activities that are counter to their believes or to their standards.

Lyz has absolutely NO obligation to attend or work to coordinate a Boy Scouts event. NOT EVER. No one in my organization will be ostracized for not participating in something that is against their beliefs or offensive to them. Once again, NOT EVER.

On the other side of this, just because Lyz feels this organization is not right in it's beliefs and policies, does not make it mandatory that we do not work with them.

Ubuntu is a non-denominational, non-political, non-activist organization. The ONLY social change that Ubuntu represents is increasing the use of Open Source Software and the spread of the Ubuntu brand of Linux. That is 100% everything that we do. And that is why we have been as successful as we have been.

I do not care if you are atheist, anarchist, catholic, republican, communist, or muslim. We are in this organization because we believe in Ubuntu and Open Source. That is what brings us together. We can not get wrapped up in political or religious debate. Otherwise we are going to have the argument about the justice/injustice of the United States, religious debate, and other things that really have no place in this space, our "Society of Ubuntu." There can not be arguments about who we do or don't work with. The people who support projects with certain groups will do their events, the people who do not agree or support that initiative do not. There will be no bias against either side.

Lyz while you may feel righteous indignation against the Boy Scouts and want nothing to do with them, the person who posted that goal (who was not me), is perfectly within the boundaries to do that. No one will fault you for your feelings on this. But please do not fault others who do want to work with the Boy Scouts in this forum or we run the risk of tearing ourselves apart.

As an example, I don't think that Alex's distribution point at the Wooden Shoe is the best place for Ubuntu to be distributed. Why? Well, by branding Ubuntu as a non-mainstream, anti-establishment, anarchist dream, are we sending the best image of our community to the non-Ubunteros out there? I am not an anarchist. I am not an extremist. And I don't advocate the destruction of the United States. In many ways that book store scares me. But do you know what? I am going to encourage Alex to do what he feels is right. If he feels that this is a good place to spread Ubuntu and the proper way to spread Ubuntu, I will not only allow it, I will strongly encourage him to do what he feels is right.

In other words be true to your heart and your believes, but do not impose them on others who may believe differently. As the moderator I will stop flame wars where I see them erupting, while trying to maintain everyone's freedom of speech. If anyone blasts Lyz for her post, I will remove their negative messages forthwith, and warn them of our policy. If it continues, I will ban them.

I open the door to discussion here, because I don't want people to feel that they have to hide how they feel. And I want to know if anyone supports what I am saying. If I am the sole voice out there then, perhaps I am not the right person to lead this group. But if I am not, please reply. We need to be a team and work together as brothers and sisters. While families and communities do not always see eye to eye, I'd like to think that as a group we can overcome external social/religious/political issues and be the group that I have come to respect and cherish, the Pennsylvania Ubuntu Local Community Team.

Why does this have international implications? Think about this; there are many countries, cultures, and religions out there who have severely different perspectives of the world. Currently there are Ubuntu LoCos in all corners of the world. So, as an example, let's say there is an Iraqi LoCo Team. Well, if there is an event planned for a Sunni school, should the Shiites dictate that there can be no event? No. And visa versa is true. Now, should a Shiite have to participate in the Sunni event? No. Absolutely, positively no. Should the group work together without religion entering into the equation? Yes. Unequivocally.

So the big question is, where does the Pennsylvania LoCo stand? Do we limit who we work with, or do we ignore race, religion, politics, and other dividing issues, to make sure that we spread Ubuntu without forcing anyone to do anything against their own beliefs?

Please do not downplay this. It is important not just here in the PA LoCo, but in all LoCos around the world.

As a side note, I am completely exhausted as I write this, so if it goes in circles or I repeat myself, I am sorry. I just didn't want this to go on without being talked about.

[balou59]

Hi bfledderjohn!

First I should say that I'm not a member of your team but of the SwissTeam and therefore you can happily ignore my writing, but your post made me think and even worried me a little:
You write:

Do I agree with the policies fo the Boy Scouts who do not allow membership to atheists or homosexuals? No. But since they are a private organization, that is their right. Does that mean that we are supporting them by offering Ubuntu training to their scouts? In my mind, no. We are spreading Ubuntu to young minds who need to know there are options beyond Microsoft. And by giving them an option, perhaps we are opening their minds a bit to the fact that there are always differences in the world and that is what makes the world an exciting and wonderful place.

Well I personnaly would react the same way as Lyz did, but maybe with other reasons: I personnaly strongly object to work with an organisation that, even being private, restricts its membership to some particular groups based on religeous belief. It is in my understanding therefore a racist organisation that does not consider every human being as equal. So why collaborating with them would be wrong? Because they do not believe in the essence what makes Ubuntu so great: the community of human beings, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation or religion. As they do not accept membership from people with a different religious background than them, it would look to the outside as if Ubuntu were supporting them, therefore it could taint Ubuntu to be as restrictive as they are. I do not object if you give them CDs to spread amongst their members, but they would not allow ALL members of your LoCo Team to collaborate with them because of their sexual orientation or religious belief? Come on, why not also collaborate with the Clan or any other racist group? Would you consider collaboration with the Church of Scientology or a Nazi organisation? Your argument fits in either of these options and I sincerely doubt that it would be good to Ubuntu. Collaboration with the Boy Scouts would only be in the Ubuntu spirit if they let in everybody, regardless of religion, gender, sexual orientation or race.

Greetings from Switzerland!

Myriam aka balou59

[lamalex]

Would you consider collaboration with the Church of Scientology or a Nazi organisation?

.. brilliant.

I wish I had thought my roadmap posting over more before I posted it. I had honestly forgotten how exclusive the boyscouts were. I was an atheist, anarchist boyscout with many openly gay friends. I got in fights at camp with evangelical christians, homophobes, and right-wingers including some staff of the camp yet I was never removed or ostracized, my troop accepted my beliefs (for the most part) and accepted me. I never felt ostracized and I feel like the boyscouts did a lot for me to form who I've become; a compassionate human being who can tie pretty good knots and do first aid. Without BSA I wouldn't appreciate the environment nearly as much. It's not fair to write them all off, but I understand that as an organization they're not one we want to be aligned with for their discriminatory policies. Sorry for putting that on the roadmap, it seems my troop was not your common boyscout troop, but being the only troop I belonged to, it's pretty much my impression of BSA.

[elizabeth]

Just to clarify a few points:

The Girls Scouts are a wonderful organization that is not associated with the Boy Scouts. The Girl Scouts do not subscribe to the discriminatory policies that the Boy Scouts do. I fully support and encourage getting involved with the Girl Scouts and might even take a leadership role in establishing a dialog with troops around Philadelphia.

I was expressing a personal objection. Not only do I not agree with the policies of the Boy Scouts, as an atheist I would not be welcome. So even if I wanted to volunteer? I couldn't unless I ignored that part of me and pretended I wasn't (which I won't do).

I never said the person who posted that suggestion shouldn't have, I never "faulted" them, I was merely expressing a position. I want this to be an open discussion with the facts on the table.

I also never said that the LoCo team shouldn't get involved with them, as I don't know the Ubuntu position on this. However, I don't believe discriminatory organizations such as the Boy Scouts are in sync with the Ubuntu mindset, and am somewhat uncomfortable being involved with a group that supports organizations that exclude people like myself and many of my friends. Ubuntu might not support specifics, but one thing it does support is inclusiveness and equality for all humanity.

And I simply disagree with your feeling that by working with the Boy Scouts we're not supporting them. If we have an event with them, link to their site, give them publicity, we are supporting them.

People might disagree with me, that's fine, that's why we're having this discussion :)

And I've opened up the discussion to the Ubuntu For All (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll) folks (which currently shares a list with Ubuntu-Women, unfortunately - a mailing list of it's own has been requested). Mailing list thread starts here: Ubuntu For All: Should LoCos support discriminatory organizations? (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/2007-June/000968.html)

[jedijf]

I going to give just my perspective.

I am a member of the Ubuntu Pennsylvania LoCo. If any of my team mates feel excluded or discriminated against by any organization or event; backed up by real and publicy known and documented policies of discrimination or exclusion; I WILL ALWAYS SUPPORT MY TEAM MATES.

Brett, I wish you would have raised your cocerns about Wooden Shoe when alex made that post so that we could have had a discussion about that also. I didn't look into the bookstore that closely to determine if as a LoCo we would have wanted to be associated with them or not. Of course, regardless of the LoCo's decision, every idividual has the right, as an individual to associate with whom ever they like.

As far as I am concerned, if any one my team mates feels excluded, I too am excluded.

[elizabeth]

Brett, I wish you would have raised your cocerns about Wooden Shoe when alex made that post so that we could have had a discussion about that also.

Me too.

I think discussion on these topics is very important and people should be encouraged to speak up if they have a problem. Maybe it's personal and won't influence the group, maybe it's a fact about the organization that others might not know (I would have liked to hear your thoughts on the Wooden Shoe earlier, I never really thought about it), maybe it's a comment that really is quite important and helps the group.

Using the Wooden Shoe example, this can spur other ideas and perhaps more progress - maybe we want to put CDs in LOTS of bookstores so we don't look like we're always lurking with underground culture!

And the whole issue is quite complex. I am not sure we'll come to a resolution anytime soon as far as broad Political/Theological/Discriminatory "rules" about who we, or any LoCo, associates with. Brett - you gave some very good examples that highlight the complexity of this. Unless of course there is already a policy in place and/or they (the CC or Canonical) come down clearly stating "Spreading Ubuntu is more important than anything else" or "We do not associate with discriminatory groups"

I think the best route is the one I was trying to take - I had a problem with something, I said so. I didn't get upset at the person who posted it, I didn't say the group shouldn't be involved with them, I certainly didn't expect everyone to agree with me. Education and civil discussion are the key here.

[lamalex]

Brett, I wish you would have raised your cocerns about Wooden Shoe when alex made that post so that we could have had a discussion about that also.

The wooden shoe is completely different from the boy scout situation, the wooden shoe is the furthest thing from a discriminatory organization. Yes they are radical, but everyone is welcome in the shoe regardless of their race, sexual orientation, political view, anything. The wooden shoe is a place for human beings; just like Ubuntu is Linux for human beings. Now that's not to say some people aren't more welcome than others, but I don't think they'd ever turn someone dying of hunger or thirst out on the street without help if they needed it. Th wooden shoe should absolutely not be the only bookstore we distribute in, they're just one I /know/ will distribute with/for us as they already give out Ubuntu cds when they can. They also have no GNU/Free software literature which is something I think they should have, and we could help them chose what books to order; most bookstores already have a least Free software, free society. I just don't see the connection to this boyscout situation and the wooden shoe..

[iqag1060]

I feel this is best handled by disclaiming on all materials any endorsement by Ubuntu, the LoCo, Canonical, or the individuals involved of the organization, it's goals, or methods. And, of course, individuals should be free to choose whether or not to participate in particular activities. Nearly every organization will have someone who disapproves of some of its goals. There might not currently be anyone in the LoCo who agrees with this point of view, but what would be the answer if there were: http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=21845

I think part of what makes the Ubuntu community great is that all are welcome to participate, regardless of ideology. That we should be able to come together to work towards the spread and improvement of Ubuntu, regardless of our other goals. To me, that is the essence of the "Be Respectful" clause in the Code of Conduct, and something that differentiates it from other free software communities.

[bfledderjohn]

Alex, the Wooden Shoe is not related to the Boy Scouts, as far as being discriminatory and no one is suggesting that. But anarchists are scary to some people. When you talk about social revolution, chaos, and removal of the government, then there are many people who would object or label us as fringe whackos.

I am not saying that the people that shop at the Wooden Shoe are not great people nor am I saying that we should withhold Ubuntu from them because of who they are. I am talking about perception. If people see someone buying the Anarchist's Cookbook and carrying a copy of Ubuntu around, what do you think the perception will be?

As for the Boy Scouts program, if it comes about, it will not be our only program. If there is a Gay and Lesbian Community Organization that wants to do something with Ubuntu I think that they cannot be ignored either. My point was that we, as a group cannot be the ones that measure right and wrong over religious and political policies (outside of people and groups advocating violence against others). Otherwise we will not do any work with programs funded by the Catholic Church (or any church or religion), a political party or body, and quickly our ability to reach the community drops exponentially. And the reason that I am saying that this is a world issue because some cultures are struggling with even deeper divides and yet Ubuntu is spreading. Do we stop Ubuntu and the community because of this?

As far as the Boy Scouts are concerned, they do ban homosexuals and atheists, however they do not push an agenda that would persecute homosexuals or atheists. They just do not allow them to participate. You can't compare them to Nazis, or hate groups, Myriam. Although not being from the United States, you may not know what the Boy Scouts are. They are a spiritual organization that encourages boys to learn self reliance, social responsibility, and respect. While I don't agree with the policy banning homosexuality, many religious groups feel that homosexuality is not acceptable and as such the Boy Scouts follow suit. They seem to follow the US military's doctrine which has been "don't ask, don't tell." See here
(http://www.scouting.org/media/press/2003/030612/statement.html) Number 5 and number 7 seem to be the factors that Lyz was concerned about. I want people who may not be familiar with the group to see their belief structure. Once again, Lyz you have every right to not support this group, and to feel uncomfortable with this group. I am only putting this out there so that everyone can see the reasoning (on both sides). As far as the religious issue they support Christian, Jewish, and Islamic groups. Being a group which believes in and promotes God, I understand why they would not encourage atheist participation. And I certainly can understand why an atheist would not want to participate in this group or any event that this group participates in.

Yes we should see what Canonical's stance is on this, however, I think that the Community was founded on apolitical and nonreligious framework to completely sidestep potential problems. We do not want, nor is it possible to have a entire community that is homogeneous. We need diversity, and we need to have tolerance and not get ourselves embroiled in political or religious debate.

Religion and politics are personal, and each individual is welcome to do as they like, but this group can't pick sides (and I'm not saying that you did this Lyz, you simply opened a door that needed to be addressed for the future). If that means that the majority of us decide that this group shouldn't get involved with any organization that has ties to anything that makes people uncomfortable or excludes anyone, then so be it, but I think that would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

[basilf]

People, these are the Boy and Girl scouts they are not the bloody KKK. Lets not get confused with being on some kind jury. There is a reason for the boy and Girl scouts not excepting homosexual and non-Christian believing people into thier group they are a family and Christian oriented group its really no brainer.

They believe they are doing this for the welfare of the children. So let then be and allow them access and support of Ubuntu education is the best way to combat ignorance and also they sell a mean apple and there cookies are to die for.

[lamalex]

[their] cookies are to die for.

The girl scouts are actually totally accepting, you can be an atheist, anarchist, lesbian girl scout. As long as you're not a boy, you're in.

[ccw]

Oh boy. Yes please don't get politics/religion/whatever involved in this. We're not here to decide who shall be granted the privilege of open source software.

I was a boy scout. Things like sexual orientation never came up. We just camped and hiked.

The proposal on the road map is suggesting some of us give a couple hours of our time to help a troop or an individual kid fulfill the following requirements:
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php?title=Computers

We would be helping those local boys, of whom the vast majority do not care or are aware of what the white hair politicos at national council spew from the board room.

Do we know how all those fresh ubuntu systems from the installfest will be used? Should we require attendees to fill out a political compass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass along with the waiver?

I worked as a systems administrator for government contractor a few years ago. Do you want to wager what operating system the robots that enslave mankind will be running? I'm putting the house on linux.

[moly]

I was a Boy Scout as a boy. I gained an enormous amount from my Scouting days. I learned leadership skills, self-reliance, a love of knots and ropework, went on two 50+ mile backpacking trips a year, and learned watercraft skills I still use today. The merit badge program, in particular, gave me many opportunities to interact with diverse members of my community, and learn from many interesting people living in my town, none of whom I would have meant otherwise.

I was active in Unitarian Universalist youth groups at the time, and stayed with Young Religious Unitarian Universalists (YRUU) long after I left the scouts.

Today, the Scouts have clung to their homophobia, even though many young men have their first homosexual experiences at Boy Scout events. This hypocrisy on their part has led them into conflict with the Unitarian Universalists. The Scout Law states that a Scout is reverent. The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) offers a religious badge as a way for scouts to explore their own religion. In Unitarian Universalism, the rights of Lesbians, Gays, Bisexuals, the Transgendered, and those questioning their sexuality are honored and respected. When this tenet of the Unitarian Universalist belief system was included in their religion badge, the BSA no longer honored the Unitarian Universalist religion badge. I found this to be profoundly insulting, even though this occurred long after I had left the Boy Scouts. The BSA also do not recognize the Wiccan religious badge, and of course, atheism is officially rejected by the BSA (atheism is rejected by the Freemasons, the Elks Club, and other service organizations as well, not that it makes such rejection appropriate).

There is a lot of good that the BSA does. They are enormously generous to the kids in their program, and the adults who work with/for the BSA put in hours of unpaid work just to help and instruct boys, and help them become good men. I think they are off-base on many things, but not for lack of good intentions. It would be a shame to punish the boys themselves for the pig-headedness of their adult leaders.

It is worth perusing the Boy Scout's Computers Merit Badge: http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/mb/mb036.html

There is a lot in the requirements where having an Ubuntero teaching the boys the material would do a world of good, sending another well-educated Linux user off into the world, rather than another Micro-drone. We could be doing a lot of good here.

[ccw]

The girl scouts are actually totally accepting, you can be an atheist, anarchist, lesbian girl scout. As long as you're not a boy, you're in.

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/index.html

[ccw]

.. brilliant.

I wish I had thought my roadmap posting over more before I posted it. I had honestly forgotten how exclusive the boyscouts were. I was an atheist, anarchist boyscout with many openly gay friends. I got in fights at camp with evangelical christians, homophobes, and right-wingers including some staff of the camp yet I was never removed or ostracized, my troop accepted my beliefs (for the most part) and accepted me. I never felt ostracized and I feel like the boyscouts did a lot for me to form who I've become; a compassionate human being who can tie pretty good knots and do first aid. Without BSA I wouldn't appreciate the environment nearly as much. It's not fair to write them all off, but I understand that as an organization they're not one we want to be aligned with for their discriminatory policies. Sorry for putting that on the roadmap, it seems my troop was not your common boyscout troop, but being the only troop I belonged to, it's pretty much my impression of BSA.

No, you weren't alone. I quite frequently performed my Senior Patrol Leader duties while wearing a Dead Kennedys - Freedom from Religion t-shirt.

[balou59]

http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/index.html

thanks for pointing this link. It strikes me how far away the BSA has gone from the original Scouts Movement defined by Baden Powell. Also, the BSA seems to be quite unique in it's exclusionary policies if compared to the European Scouts Movement and even the WOSM: http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/wosm.html

I could imagine collaboration with WOSM and Girls Scouts without problems, but still would make quite some reservations about an organisation that certainely is not willing to collaborate with all LoCo Team members because of their gender, sexual preferences or religion.

If I read in the "Girls in BSA" section that not only they exclude women but also don't want to see clergymen or teachers to serve as BS leaders because of their "feminine" professions, I really doubt that a collaboration with such an organisation is usefull. What about Edubuntu?

Instead I would speak in favour of publicly declare Ubuntu LoCo Teams open to Boy Scouts despite the BSA leaders excluding policy: "Ubuntu LoCo Team X welcomes BSA members using Ubuntu but does not endorse BSA restrictive policy". In public perception this puts the LoCo Team in a nice light: it's quite different if the LoCo Team invites BSA to collaborate than the other way round!

BTW, I very well know what boy scouts are, I used to by a Girl Scout in Switzerland in my youth too :-) but it was the Swiss Scouts Movement, not excluding anyone, in the true spirit of the movement!

[ccw]

thanks for pointing this link. It strikes me how far away the BSA has gone from the original Scouts Movement defined by Baden Powell. Also, the BSA seems to be quite unique in it's exclusionary policies if compared to the European Scouts Movement and even the WOSM: http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/wosm.html

The point of that link was to illustrate that the GSA is not as innocent as it's been represented in this thread. Would I use that link as a reason to deny a local scout (boy or girl) the opportunity to discover ubuntu and OSS? No.

[lamalex]

The point of that link was to illustrate that the GSA is not as innocent as it's been represented in this thread.
could you point me to the part that says that? This site seems to actually have an agenda about scouting in general, maybe the site owners parents never let them be a scout and now they're pissed? The GSA section is an article about how GSA doesn't care if you're a lesbian but they don't encourage any particular lifestyle .. don't see the discrimination there...

[dshufelt]

After reading this post I kind of got the feeling that there was some question on the official Ubuntu stand point... I would like to encourage everyone to read the following: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy

The philosophy behind Ubuntu is extremely important to building strong communities (in my humble opinion). Here is a link to a great (short) interview with Nelson Mandella where he elaborates on the meaning and philosophy behind Ubuntu: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3161904793006930187&q=ubuntu+mandella

That having been said, this was a fantastic discussion thread!

[elizabeth]

I feel this is best handled by disclaiming on all materials any endorsement by Ubuntu, the LoCo, Canonical, or the individuals involved of the organization, it's goals, or methods.

+1


Ind, of course, individuals should be free to choose whether or not to participate in particular activities. Nearly every organization will have someone who disapproves of some of its goals.

I also think we need to avoid any semblance of censorship. If someone disagrees with something for any reason, I want people to feel they can. We probably will not all agree, but in my post I felt excluded and was bringing up a real concern that others might be interested in knowing about (indeed, I got many comments saying "thanks - I didn't realize/had forgotten the BSA was so exclusionary").


I think part of what makes the Ubuntu community great is that all are welcome to participate, regardless of ideology. That we should be able to come together to work towards the spread and improvement of Ubuntu, regardless of our other goals. To me, that is the essence of the "Be Respectful" clause in the Code of Conduct, and something that differentiates it from other free software communities.

I absolutely agree. The CoC is very important, and which is why I'm less worried about a "flame war" starting here in the Ubuntu Forums than elsewhere - I feel safer here expressing my views knowing that we are bound to a code that includes respecting each other :)

[ccw]

could you point me to the part that says that? This site seems to actually have an agenda about scouting in general, maybe the site owners parents never let them be a scout and now they're pissed? The GSA section is an article about how GSA doesn't care if you're a lesbian but they don't encourage any particular lifestyle .. don't see the discrimination there...

I'm reading it as a "don't ask don't tell" policy. But that's just me. I don't remember anyone being asked about it in my experiences in the boy scouts either.

Policies come from the top of these organizations. They are enforced to various degrees at the local level. Both of our experiences attest to that.

We are here to focus on the local level. Reach out and spread the love. If they're pricks about it, don't schedule a follow up.

[elizabeth]

After reading this post I kind of got the feeling that there was some question on the official Ubuntu stand point... I would like to encourage everyone to read the following: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy

It's nice to be reminded, that link is important, thanks for posting it! But I don't think there is an argument about Ubuntu itself tolerating discrimination (it doesn't). In fact if you follow the links in that article you'll end up at the Open Source Definition (http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php), which in section 5 states an open source license have "No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups"

If there isn't an official standpoint from Ubuntu I really liked iqag1060's idea of a disclaimer stating that we don't necessarily promote the politics of the groups we work with. We spread Ubuntu and are able to detach ourselves from political and social entanglements to a point (an Ubuntu banner next to the BSA headquarters in Philadelphia still might upset some people and cause bad press, no matter what the fine print says). People who don't want to work on a project are welcome to express their opinions, but in the end we only volunteer for the events we feel comfortable with.

I don't think this will be a huge issue in the PA LoCo team as I don't think we're culturally different enough to disagree about some of the more extreme groups out there (While the Nazi example made me laugh and fit the basic framework of the argument, is that even an issue? Would enough people in the group feel comfortable in a personal capacity supporting such an organization to make such an event happen?). But as Bret said, this is an international issue.


Here is a link to a great (short) interview with Nelson Mandella where he elaborates on the meaning and philosophy behind Ubuntu: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3161904793006930187&q=ubuntu+mandella

I don't know how I managed to miss that - thanks for the link, I enjoyed it :)

[iqag1060]

I don't think this will be a huge issue in the PA LoCo team as I don't think we're culturally different enough to disagree about some of the more extreme groups out there (While the Nazi example made me laugh and fit the basic framework of the argument, is that even an issue? Would enough people in the group feel comfortable in a personal capacity supporting such an organization to make such an event happen?). But as Bret said, this is an international issue.


I agree that by saying participation is voluntary, you are able to exclude the Nazi/extremist-of-any-sort case by default, as no one will volunteer. (I would hope.) On the other hand, the Nazi example also highlighted the difficulty, as Nazis were linked with Scientologists as examples of intolerable groups. That may be the common perception in Switzerland and much of Europe, but in PA, most people view them (at most) as harmless wackos. (I don't happen to agree, but...) I'm sure there are many LoCo members who would have no more problem with a program at a Scientology-sponsored program than an Episcopalian-sponsored program (such as Open Borders.)

Also, it's worth noting the difference between the video on the philosophy of ubuntu, and "Our Philosophy" as described on the Ubuntu site. The latter is an application of ubuntu to the specific domain of software.

[lamalex]

as Nazis were linked with Scientologists as examples of intolerable groups. That may be the common perception in Switzerland and much of Europe, but in PA, most people view them (at most) as harmless wackos.

Wait, so Europe actually takes Scientology seriously? Seriously as in .. doesn't consider it a huge joke? Come on guys, it's obviously a huge joke on Hollywood.

[elizabeth]

I'm sure there are many LoCo members who would have no more problem with a program at a Scientology-sponsored program than an Episcopalian-sponsored program (such as Open Borders.)

Fair point, maybe we are different enough for it to matter here in PA. I'm in the "Scientology is a bit of a joke" crowd and would be interested to hear your feelings on the matter (again, discussion is good! I don't know much about them).

Do you still think the disclaimer idea would work?


The latter is an application of ubuntu to the specific domain of software.

Of course, but said software was built on the ideals of the former and it's nice to learn about.

[iqag1060]

I tend to be in the "Individual Scientologists are mostly harmless - if a little loony" camp, while recognizing that it's destroyed some people's lives, and was founded by one of the most fascinatingly creepy individuals in history. (http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/bfm/bfmconte.htm)
But my main point was that it's irrelevant to me. I would rather have goofy cultists using free software than sending Tom Cruise's money to Redmond. If there was a Scientology-run hall that let us run an installfest I'd participate. If there was a brainwashing center that needed an LTSP lab to run some new GPL'd software E-meters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-meter), I'd probably stay away. But if some people in the LoCo went, and it was clear that the LoCo and it's members as well as the top-level organizations did not endorse auditing or alien takeover or the like, then I would not feel compelled to switch to Gentoo permanently.

I would probably apply the same personal policy to the Episcopalians. I would install the lab at the Church-sponsored youth center, but not at the Church itself. If the LoCo installed at the Church, I'd be fine with it, with the disclaimer.

Now, to admit too things which make me feel uncomfortable:

This post is not as "Respectful" as it should be. I'm not sure why I feel so comfortable mocking Scientologists. I apologize if anyone is offended. I have at least one friend who sincerely believes Dianetics helped him. Lines are hard to draw.
I don't know if I can extend the same analogy to Nazis. Actually, I'm pretty sure I can't. That is, if a group of LoCo members hosted an installfest at a white supremacist compound, I would feel the need to distance myself from the LoCo no matter how many disclaimers were on the posters. And I have no good ideas about how that line can be specified. Perhaps, as someone mentioned, the advocating of violence is the line. But even that can get foggy.


So, assuming the Nazi case to be purely hypothetical, disclaimers seem to be a practical solution to me. Ultimately, there should be (maybe there already is) an Ubuntu-wide policy which enables LoCos to work with non-profits and other organizations without endorsing any sort of political or religious position, and which gives members the freedom of conscience to support free software without feeling compelled to adhere to any other ideology - even ubuntu the social philosophy, except insofar as it applies to work within the Ubuntu community.

Sorry, as usual that's too many words to say too little.

[bfledderjohn]

Well, I would say the line is anything that is considered a "hate group". Any group that preaches violence, racial or religious hatred, intimidation, or degradation would not be an acceptable group.

[kejava]

I was in Massachusetts for a long weekend. Then I got bogged down with a client for most of this week. All I can add is this: I see a problem for our group - we need a solution.

It appears that the problem has been identified. A list of potential Ubuntu recipients (where "recipient" can be an NPO or business) has already been established. Based on our collective interests, we need a way to judiciously accept or eliminate certain recipients and/or projects. I say we go with the time-tested process of voting. We can do this in three stages:
List potential recipients of our services. Multiple projects may be tied to a single recipient. This is already being done on the Road Map section of the Approval Application wiki page. Before dedicating resources to a specific project, members of the PA Ubuntu LoCo must anonymously vote over the course of a week. The majority determines whether we, as a team, go forward with the project or not. Once a project is approved, it gets its own project page on the wiki. On that page will be a section where people can sign up as resources. If over the course of a week, no one signs up for the project it will be temporarily canceled.
You may notice I am suggesting that the group vote on a per-project and not per-recipient basis. This is because people may take issue with a recipient but not a specific project for that recipient. Using the recent project with Girls Inc as an example, if you're a supporter of the Pro-Life Action League (http://www.prolifeaction.org/home/2005/girls.htm) (read article), you may not be accepting of Girls Inc (the recipient) as an organization but you do support "getting computers to underprivileged girls" (the project). Newsweek also had an interesting article (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9937614/site/newsweek/) on the PLA's disapproval of Girls Inc.

Because we supported a project with Girls Inc, does this mean that some people will think our members are pro-choice, i.e. pro-abortion? Certainly. This is where the disclaimer that iqag1060 mentioned comes in handy. I like the way Lyz put it, "... we don't necessarily promote the politics of the groups we work with. We spread Ubuntu ...".

I don't know where we would plaster the disclaimer. I guess somewhere on meetlinux.com? Creating a wiki page for a project is easy. The voting can be tricky. From the forum, I'm not sure if we can limit voting via a poll to only PA LoCo members. This three step process as I laid it out may not be practical. Tell me what you think.

[hklak]

Can't we all just get along...

[kejava]

hklak, good question. nope. we can never get along. imho ;)

[elizabeth]

I don't know where we would plaster the disclaimer. I guess somewhere on meetlinux.com?

Yeah, I figured we'd do that, I'll draft something up since the consensus seems to be we want to go the disclaimer route.


Creating a wiki page for a project is easy.

Yep.


The voting can be tricky. From the forum, I'm not sure if we can limit voting via a poll to only PA LoCo members.

No, I don't think this is possible. And we'd run into the same problem with any other voting mechanisms.


This three step process as I laid it out may not be practical. Tell me what you think.

I was thinking about the practicality of this all. I'm wondering if we can just get into the habit of posting prospective projects on the forum along with a poll asking "Would you be interested in taking part in this event?" - sort of like we have been doing with our "Can you attend this event?" polling. The threads won't specifically be about whether we should work with the group on a specific project (so not to flood the forums with such tedium) but should quickly get an idea of how much interest there is to move forward, after all, if not enough people are interested it just won't happen.

[jedijf]

I agree with Lyz, forum post about perceived projects even if they are being actively worked on by a team or region. This benefits the whole loco many ways, and invites perspectives on all aspects of the event.

Many issues in this thread are related to the thread :

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=470245

About the Approval Application and the roadmap.

It's to be expected, as we grow, to have growing pains.

I am really proud of the loco and the people outside the loco, because during all this, despite personal feelings, it has been an open and civil discourse.

Issues cannot be resolved unless they are discussed openly and honestly. I think that this has been accomplished, and is a testament to the kind of people that we have in and around this LoCo.

[nconlon]

Being an Eagle Scout for the past years I've seen many an atheist come though our troop I have nothing against them any non denominal church service we have we tell the kids that its not required that they be there as for the other issues i was seeing in the forum posts... the reasoning is simply this: The boy on camp trips will most of the time will share a tent if one of them we're to "express their feelings" the other kid would most likely tell their parents because they didn't know what happened (the age group is very young in most troops) it seemed better to the national office to avoid things before they happen.

as for the Pennsylvania loco teaching the computer merit badge I'm a consular for that merit badge myself meritbadge.com (http://www.meritbadge.com) has some great resources for the merit badge. one of the things I'm planning to do with the Texas West LoCo is an install party at one of the local colleges. If you want to hook the scouters (leaders) go to a local district round table loaded with CDs and just hand them out to the leaders or get numbers and come back with packs of fliers and CDs for the troops to give to their members.

[treepolitik]

In theory, if the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts were to be used, we would essentially be drafting them to distribute Ubuntu. We would ask them to stop building birdhouses and driveways as service projects, or to add Ubuntu to their already-large list of projects.

As a person who has watched many political-themed movies, I am aware of any possible political connections to this issue. The Ubuntu Forums' Code of Conduct (http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy) clearly states "Religion/Politics threads:
Conversations about religion are disallowed at all times, as are all political discussions that are not directly related to free and open source software concerns."

In short, we would be directing them away from from their supposed main goals, including the environment, if we wanted them to do something serious for Ubuntu. While I would like to rant many a page of political irony, it is not relevant and I will not mention it here.

There is another market that would be a better investment: non-profits that are starting. They will be full of college student volunteers looking for experience.

[treepolitik]

As a person who has watched many political-themed movies, I am aware of any possible political connections to this issue. The Ubuntu Forums' Code of Conduct (http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy) clearly states "Religion/Politics threads: Conversations about religion are disallowed at all times, as are all political discussions that are not directly related to free and open source software concerns."


If this is true, then what makes who the Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts accept an issue? Certainly, we would not work with any hate group, but hate groups would be afraid of us, so that's not an issue.

The recurring pattern I see is other members of the Ubuntu Community being offended if we were to work with Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts. That is a personal political and cultural issue, although by convention and design, not rules, Ubuntu is meant to be multicultural.

However, since the original goal of the Boy Scouts was to feed into the United States Army, that would violate the Code of Conduct via participation with a political institution. If we were to work with the Boy Scouts on that note, we would essentially be working with an imitator of the United States Army.

Girl Scouts, and not to be discriminatory, do not follow this per se because of prior culture. On that basis, I would consider working with the Girl Scouts, because the culture does not demand that they are the flagship of the Anglo culture.

---
For comparison, let me take a step back and analyze purely from the free and open source idea. A hate group that was recognized as a hate group by most cultures would be antagonistic to open-source software without going into detailed political or religious information. On the basis of distribution, Ubuntu can be distributed to anyone, as long as they are willing to distribute it, use it, and follow the Code of Conduct.

The free market principles which we assume Boy Scouts follow would work in tandem with the idea of free and open source software. After all, things can be free and still have competitive power. In that light, if the partnership is limited to the issue of distributing Ubuntu(a competitive element) in a free market, the de facto affiliation between the Boy Scouts and the United States Army is irrelevant.

The only issue remaining is the exclusion issue. This would be antagonistic to open source because it prevents certain people from having access to open source. This issue can only be resolved if Boy Scouts are treated as any other organization that is not universally designated as a hate organization. If all organizations are equal, then organizations representing gays and lesbians had equal chance of obtaining a partnership with Ubuntu(and still do, to which other members of the community would likely take offense), unless the Board of Directors of any Ubuntu-related organization were biased toward selecting anti-gay members(very unlikely).

---
Lastly, an organization involving the reformation of humans as opposed to other political issues is probably an area that would be too difficult to allow compromise between differing political perspectives. If you disagree with me about this, your statement proves it, because there is no compromise on whether to compromise or not. A disclaimer functions legally, so political perspectives have been covered, though not always satisfied. Ubuntu has agreed to make a disclaimer--should they not agree to something as well?*

**Notice that I am not discussing the political issues themselves, I am observing how rules associated with political issues are being followed.

Girl Scouts, OK. Boy Scouts, per agreement.* Sierra Club, better.

*Only if they are willing to distribute to everyone and/or invite everyone to Ubuntu events; this does not affect their own events. A partnership may legitimately require them to adopt new standards for joint events.