I have a dream...

[MacScotland]

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I almost gave up on Ubuntu, but now that I have it installed in a VirtualBox on Vista, I am, so far, very impressed.

My primary objective as a (too)long-time Windows user was to try Ubuntu and see what it could do for me. I had thought of trying Linux derivatives a few times in the past (I still have a hardly-used Suse boxed-set if anyone wants it); but it was just too painful, time consuming, and (for me) non-intuitive to set-up a dual-boot configuration.

I downloaded, burnt, and tried the Ubuntu 7.04 Live CD on my laptop, but was getting nowhere quite slowly, without networking via my wireless connection, and the way the Live CD concept works (i.e. you can't save the updates you need until you actually install).

Then I was reminded of the virtual machine concept and started digging into that option. I initially tried Microsoft's Virtual PC 2007, but gave up on it quickly after getting some very good advice from an extra helpful Canadian known as starcraft.man in this community. (One thing I would add is that I found the quality and quantity of Ubuntu community help to be otherwise quite lacking compared to the newsgroup help I can get with Vista).

Anyway, I am now happy, and feel confident enough to start planning for a dual-boot installation of Ubuntu with Vista on my laptop. Remember, I'm an oldish IT guy, not averse to trying new things, but also careful enough to proceed carefully.

Now, I'm not your simple Joe Average with a simple XP or Vista PC, but I'm not a million miles away from them either. In otherwords I understand how they must feel when confronted with trying Ubuntu.

I would like to see Ubuntu be very successful. I subscribe to its' ethos, if not its' current delivery.

So here is my suggestion - create a self-installing package that Joe (and/or Jane) Average can download (or pick up in their local store, for free) which will let them run Ubuntu in a VirtualBox (or similar) on their XP or Vista PC. Once seeded in this manner, such a package would then be smart enough to "grow" itself (via online updates and feature enticements to Joe and/or Jane) to become a fully-functional user-friendly addition to their Microsoft based system.

Seeded in such a manner Joe and/or Jane may eventually be confident enough to actually install Ubuntu for real.

So, am I still dreaming?

[MacScotland]

So, any takers?

[blah blah blah]

Well, I'm not going to do it.

[MacScotland]

Well, I meant any takers on the concept ;-)

[smoker]

there is this being developed, never tried it though:
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4611592451.html

[finferflu]

How about wubi (http://www.cutlersoftware.com/ubuntusetup/wubi/en-US/index.html) instead?
I don't know whether you knew about this project already, but it sounds cool and promising, and I think more useful than a virtual box, since it installs the system without damaging anythig.

[MacScotland]

Interesting, but why had I never heard about it? Poor PR? Most folks risk-averse,so Joe and/or Jane needs to feel very safe that they are doing something "mainstream".

[smoker]

Interesting, but why had I never heard about it? Poor PR? Most folks risk-averse,so Joe and/or Jane needs to feel very safe that they are doing something "mainstream".

i think my link is also related to wubu, and i think the development is still classed as beta, so maybe once a final version is released it may be promoted more, especially to windows/new users, at least i hope so.

[MacScotland]

If that is the case, then I'm glad to hear it... give me a wee while to read those links.

[MacScotland]

Wubi looks good, so far.

[floke]

Yep. Dreaming. Joe etc. don't have to install Windows themselves. If they did they'd find it far harder than Ubuntu - especially if they wanted to preserve other partitions on their disc. What's so hard about setting up a dual boot? You can run a virtual machine but not dual boot? Me - I could partition and install all day, but virtualisation......now you've lost me.

[MacScotland]

Wubi, I'm afraid wouldn't be for Joe and/or Jane Average, IMHO.

www.cutlersoftware.com/ubuntusetup/wubi/en-US/faq.html

Wubi Internals

How does Wubi work?
Wubi adds an entry to the Windows boot menu which allows you to run Linux. Ubuntu is installed within a file in the windows file system (c:\wubi\disks\system.virtual.disk), this file is seen by Linux as a real hard disk.

Is this running Ubuntu within a virtual environment or something similar?
No. This is a real installation, the only difference is that Ubuntu is installed within a file as opposed to being installed within its own partition. Thus we spare you the trouble to create a free partition for Ubuntu. And we spare you the trouble to have to burn a CD-Rom.

[MacScotland]

Occam's Razor - Keep it simple stupid (KISS) ;-)

If we want to hook the mainstream then we have to think mainstream...:popcorn:

[floke]

Why should we keep dumbing down? Why can't Joe/Jane dumb up?
It's not exactly hard to set up a dual boot Ubuntu install you know?
i reckon even you could do it :p

[MacScotland]

Yep. Dreaming. Joe etc. don't have to install Windows themselves. If they did they'd find it far harder than Ubuntu - especially if they wanted to preserve other partitions on their disc. What's so hard about setting up a dual boot? You can run a virtual machine but not dual boot? Me - I could partition and install all day, but virtualisation......now you've lost me.

But, Joe and/or Jane won't 'cause they don't need to.

Let's think how to make it easier for them...

[MacScotland]

Why should we keep dumbing down? Why can't Joe/Jane dumb up?
It's not exactly hard to set up a dual boot Ubuntu install you know?
i reckon even you could do it :p


Joe and/or Jane will never dumb-up in a googleplex of years.

[floke]

Why should we?
It's 'easy' enough as it is! For God's sake you even get umpteen LiveCD's to play with beforehand. The only problem is the alien concepts - partitioning etc. - but the practicality is simple enough. In any case - if you want to use Linux you have to be prepared to learn a bit. Setting low expectations - i.e. a very dumbed down version of things - would create more trouble in the future - at the first sign of having to learn anything Joe etc. jump back to Windows and cry 'Linux is too complicated'.

[MacScotland]

Why should we?
It's 'easy' enough as it is! For God's sake you even get umpteen LiveCD's to play with beforehand. The only problem is the alien concepts - partitioning etc. - but the practicality is simple enough. In any case - if you want to use Linux you have to be prepared to learn a bit. Setting low expectations - i.e. a very dumbed down version of things - would create more trouble in the future - at the first sign of having to learn anything Joe etc. jump back to Windows and cry 'Linux is too complicated'.

Absolutely, definitely, not at all. It's not "easy" more most folks!

We have to make it so easy, that it's like adding YouTube to your favourites in Internet Explorer.

[floke]

No. Absolutely we don't. We have to tell people that it's easy now. And convince them that they can do it. Really: who couldn't set up a dual-boot system?
.
* put cd in drive and boot
* select guided partition option - with automatic resize etc. of Windows
* have a cup of tea
* reboot

Does it get any easier??

[MacScotland]

No. Absolutely we don't. We have to tell people that it's easy now. And convince them that they can do it. Really: who couldn't set up a dual-boot system?
.
* put cd in drive and boot
* select guided partition option - with automatic resize etc. of Windows
* have a cup of tea
* reboot

Does it get any easier??

99% of folks on this planet will struggle with even understanding your sentence - Really: who couldn't set up a dual-boot system?

Never mind do it.

[Stew2]

If people can't be bothered enough to put a little effort into it I don't think it's going to hold their attention no matter how simple you make it. Just my opinion.

[floke]

That's my point exactly.
Well put.

[the8thstar]

Wubi sounds great... seamless integration with Windows, the best of both worlds, you name it.

However, I have some concerns regarding security. Which system has the upper hand on the ports? Is Wubi an easy way to Ubuntu traded off with the spyware and viruses of Windows ?

And what's the actual functionl difference between Wubi and GRUB?