In regards to my previous topic

[tanelt]

(Since my previous top was moved to the trash before I could reply, I'll do it here.)

Yeah right. Even though I hate microsoft, I'm forced to use it at school and also there's no other way for me to play games without wind0ze. Wine and all other stuff make the framerate drop by 50%.

I like Linux, I like the philosopy around it and everything, but the point is that I can't understand why can't people work on a single environment and make it truly GREAT. Why there have to be 10000000000000 billion different ways (which all suck major ***, by the way) to do the EXACT SAME THING?

It's true that in most cases you can't have simplicity and funtionality together, but if you look at the VLC media player for example, it has the "advanced settings" checkbox under every preferences' page. So that newcomers can use only the things that matter to them and not be bugged down with all the technical details while the experts can still fine tune everything. Why can't people do something like that for Linux?

And oh yeah, please forgive me for voicing my opinion.

[runningwithscissors]

Simple. Because people don't work for your comfort.

They work on stuff they find interesting.

[FuturePilot]

Linux is about choice.

[Ozor Mox]

Because this is the nature of free software. It's evolutionary, because anyone can take the code, modify it, and redistribute it in such a way that their own ideas of what makes the software great are incorporated.

Free software is not owned by any individual or company, so what you are suggesting cannot and will not ever happen. Many people would argue that this is the strength of software like Linux.

Though I have always wondered what kind of uber-operating system we might have if somehow all the companies and individuals working on Linux all worked on the same version, where everything was incorporated as a whole (kernel, userland, window manager, desktop environment, apps, etc.)...

[starcraft.man]

Linux is about choice, the apps are functional (they are, even if you don't like how they function) and are coded mostly on people's free time. If their not to your liking, the do something about it thats productive (posting this ignorant post in the cafe only incites flames and annoyance) that means (but not limited to):
1) Go to forums/dev sites of apps you like but want improved and make suggestions.
2) Learn coding language of the applications in question and help improve it by working with the team.
3) Become a tester to improve speed of bug detection and fixing.
4) Form your own project after learning coding.

Those 4 are the important ones, there are others I'm forgetting probably... If you can't be bothered to do those and want something that works instantly and only has one way of doing things. Go buy a Mac and put Windows on it with Parallels to play games, or stay with the inferior (IMO) Windows.

[ThinkBuntu]

Noticed they robbed you of your silly avatar as well. I agree with the others: Many users love Fedora, Mandriva, etc., but I don't have too much use for them; even so, they should be available. I find GNOME, Xfce, and KDE all to have their pros and cons.

[23meg]

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ

[tanelt]

Okay, just answer this: if open source is so great, why are 98% people still using wind0ze or OSX?


Of course it's all about choice, but as long as there's no unified standard, the situation will always stay the same.
The average Joe doesn't even know what a browser is, let alone choose between distros/DE's/browsers/windowmanagers/etcetc.

P.S. I removed my avatar myself and made the text font in my signature smaller.

[23meg]

Okay, just answer this: if open source is so great, why are 98% people still using wind0ze or OSX?

Because they've become de facto standards, and people in general will just take what's presented to them without questioning if it's any good or whether there are alternatives.


Of course it's all about choice, but as long as there's no unified standard, the situation will always stay the same.

There are unified standards regarding many areas of development; it's just that you don't know about them.


The average Joe doesn't even know what a browser is, let alone choose between distros/DE's/browsers/windowmanagers/etcetc.

Hence the reason Ubuntu and some other distros are delivering a single set of defaults, one application per task, without the user having to make a choice.

Really, just read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ and other stuff linked in this sticky thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=408434).

[Mazza558]

Okay, just answer this: if open source is so great, why are 98% people still using ...

They're not using Windows because they want to. They're using windows because:

a) they know no other choice
b) windows comes preinstalled.

[eentonig]

marketshare, marketshare, marketshare....

99.999% of the world uses Windows, so it must be good. That is exactly the reason why you can't play games on linux and why 99.999% of the world keeps on using Windows.


People prefer to stay within the boundaries of their community, because that provides safety. So if you use the same OS that everyone else you know uses, your better off. Otherwise, they might start to think your a freak and exclude you from the community benefits.

And why should I as GPU vendor invest in OpenGL and linux compability? Directx allows me to reduce my programming cost for games. And linux version wont sell anyhow.

[ShareBuntu]

Okay, just answer this: if open source is so great, why are 98% people still using wind0ze or OSX?
Rome wasn't built in a day, friend.

[starcraft.man]

Okay, just answer this: if open source is so great, why are 98% people still using wind0ze or OSX?


Of course it's all about choice, but as long as there's no unified standard, the situation will always stay the same.
The average Joe doesn't even know what a browser is, let alone choose between distros/DE's/browsers/windowmanagers/etcetc.

P.S. I removed my avatar myself and made the text font in my signature smaller.

ROFL! I just have to laugh at that statement, read the crticism faq. Oh and I guess it depends on your average joe, I mean if the "average" joe doesn't know about browsers how did Firefox get an install base of over 20-25% (across America a bit lower, it is that high in europe they like choice given their n version of windows). It doesn't come preinstalled in anything except some linux distros...

Anyway, it's clear you don't know what your talking about so if your not going to contribute something positive like I stated in the options, please leave us be we have people to help/things to do.

[runningwithscissors]

Okay, just answer this: if open source is so great, why are 98% people still using wind0ze or OSX?Their choice.


Of course it's all about choice, but as long as there's no unified standard, the situation will always stay the same.Who cares?

The average Joe doesn't even know what a browser is, let alone choose between distros/DE's/browsers/windowmanagers/etcetc.They'll learn quickly enough if the need arrives for them to. Until then let them be happy with whatever they use. We don't care.

[tanelt]

ROFL! I just have to laugh at that statement, read the crticism faq. Oh and I guess it depends on your average joe, I mean if the "average" joe doesn't know about browsers how did Firefox get an install base of over 20-25% (across America a bit lower, it is that high in europe they like choice given their n version of windows). It doesn't come preinstalled in anything except some linux distros...

It is either recommended or installed FOR them by a knowledgeable friend, who are sick of cleaning their boxes from spyware. They themselves didn't (and didn't even know how to) make the choice.


23meg: Thanks for the links, I've read them before, but I'll look over them again.

Mazza558: The average user doesn't want to have to make a choice. S/he wants things that just work. People don't have time to research everything just in order to make a choice.

The success behind Firefox is that it does 99% of what IE does while even providing an almost identical user interface. All the advanced options (advanced for the average Joe, not for power users), like tabbed browsing are OPTIONAL.

[ticopelp]

It's not the open source community's responsibility to rescue people from their own ignorance.

If you don't have the time or desire to learn anything, your time would most likely be better spent continuing to work with an OS you are familiar with.

[Dragonbite]

I like Linux, I like the philosopy around it and everything, but the point is that I can't understand why can't people work on a single environment and make it truly GREAT. Why there have to be 10000000000000 billion different ways (which all suck major ***, by the way) to do the EXACT SAME THING?Because then Linux will be like Windows, trying to have ONE version that does EVERYTHING.

[tanelt]

The first 'bug' in launchpad is that windows has the marketshare and Linux should fix that problem.

If a user has used the legacy OS all his/her life and happens to try out Linux ands finds that there's a need make difficult choices or if you put them through a terminal frenzy, it is guaranteed they will never switch. Almost all the people only make the switch if the other thing does EVERYTHING they are used to at least as easily as the previous thing did. Go ahead, prove me wrong.

[ticopelp]

The first 'bug' in launchpad is that windows has the marketshare and Linux should fix that problem.

If a user has used the legacy OS all his/her life and happens to try out Linux ands finds that there's a need make difficult choices or if you put them through a terminal frenzy, it is guaranteed they will never switch. Almost all the people only make the switch if the other thing does EVERYTHING they are used to at least as easily as the previous thing did. Go ahead, prove me wrong.

OS X doesn't behave like Windows, no one goes to Apple telling them their OS needs to behave just like Windows in order to succeed, and many people have switched from Windows to Mac. There. You're wrong.

If someone wants an OS that behaves just like the OS they're currently using, they should stick to what they're using and not switch.

And seriously, learning to use the terminal is not rocket science. So you have to type (or just cut and paste) a few commands. If you're capable of operating a computer in the first place, it should be well within your capabilities as a reasoning human being.

[Mazza558]

It is either recommended or installed FOR them by a knowledgeable friend, who are sick of cleaning their boxes from spyware. They themselves didn't (and didn't even know how to) make the choice.


23meg: Thanks for the links, I've read them before, but I'll look over them again.

Mazza558: The average user doesn't want to have to make a choice. S/he wants things that just work. People don't have time to research everything just in order to make a choice.

The success behind Firefox is that it does 99% of what IE does while even providing an almost identical user interface. All the advanced options (advanced for the average Joe, not for power users), like tabbed browsing are OPTIONAL.

If Linux was preinstalled (like it is starting to be on Dell), it would be a hell of a lot easier for the end user to use. Why is OSX so easy? Apple's programmers only have to focus on a few different hardware situations.

[prizrak]

(Since my previous top was moved to the trash before I could reply, I'll do it here.)

Yeah right. Even though I hate microsoft, I'm forced to use it at school and also there's no other way for me to play games without wind0ze. Wine and all other stuff make the framerate drop by 50%.

I like Linux, I like the philosopy around it and everything, but the point is that I can't understand why can't people work on a single environment and make it truly GREAT. Why there have to be 10000000000000 billion different ways (which all suck major ***, by the way) to do the EXACT SAME THING?

It's true that in most cases you can't have simplicity and funtionality together, but if you look at the VLC media player for example, it has the "advanced settings" checkbox under every preferences' page. So that newcomers can use only the things that matter to them and not be bugged down with all the technical details while the experts can still fine tune everything. Why can't people do something like that for Linux?

And oh yeah, please forgive me for voicing my opinion.

I seem to be able to play games on the Wii with little trouble. Everything works out of the box, just plug the cables in, put the game in and grab the Wiimote. I dunno maybe I'm alone in this or something. I do have a friend however who games on the 360 and he has reported similar results with gaming.

[runningwithscissors]

The first 'bug' in launchpad is that windows has the marketshare and Linux should fix that problem.Wrong. The bug says 'Ubuntu' should fix that problem (or at least I think it does, Ubuntu is not the mouthpiece of the Linux developers or users). So, please don't confuse the two.

Linux is not Ubuntu.

[ThinkBuntu]

Wrong. The bug says 'Ubuntu' should fix that problem (or at least I think it does, Ubuntu is not the mouthpiece of the Linux developers or users). So, please don't confuse the two.

Linux is not Ubuntu.

Word.

[forrestcupp]

Well, if you don't like Windows and you don't like Linux, then there's always Mac. But Mac can't run too many games either, so I guess you're just screwed.

So your choices are to just stick with Windows or to just be grateful for all of the people who volunteer their time and work to make an OS that you can run for free. Your other choice is to just keep being an annoyance to people like me who know they shouldn't read threads like this but can't help it.

If you don't like Linux, just don't use it. Someday maybe it will be good enough for you.

[starcraft.man]

It is either recommended or installed FOR them by a knowledgeable friend, who are sick of cleaning their boxes from spyware. They themselves didn't (and didn't even know how to) make the choice.


Wow. You really think very little of the intelligence/ability of the "average user". And what's wrong with being recommended something by a friend? It's how I heard of firefox. Isn't that how a lot of software and other things are promoted, word of mouth (unless of course their built in). Considering all that is required on windows is going to firefox website (http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/) and downloading and running the exe, I don't think a friend has to install it for you on Windows, the average user in my experience is quite capable of running an exe without trouble.


The success behind Firefox is that it does 99% of what IE does while even providing an almost identical user interface. All the advanced options (advanced for the average Joe, not for power users), like tabbed browsing are OPTIONAL

I won't argue, your right. Firefox does everything IE does, in addition it doesn't have active X (more secure, it is a stupid technology), it does have lots of customization (themes + extensions) for users to choose from (some even provide extra security like no script and ad block plus), and it is free and open source.

The statement I highlighted applies to Ubuntu too, there is a condition though. If your hardware works perfectly out of the box on the install, then, there is likely never to be a need for the average user to use the terminal. Hardware detection and working isn't the fault of Ubuntu, its the hardware companies, they write drivers to be packaged in Windows so that it works so well (and make it very large and bloated with legacy). The updates are automatic, OpenOffice and Firefox satisfy the basic needs of most people, and contrary to belief you can do almost anything in Ubuntu via the GUI (granted, there are limitations that may require terminal, but none are daily use features if your hardware detects well and works).

I can only surmise that your either A) A very ignorant user who is out to simply bash something that didn't work for him or B) your informed and you choose and pick which facts you wish to believe. Either way, there are billions of other sites on the net, go pick another to troll please. I won't be responding again in this thread.

Edit:


This thread isn't going anywhere, so it might as well be locked/trashed or whatever.

Agreed with you there, you obviously don't seem interested in listening to what we have to say and thus I can't imagine why you even posted this thread here. The bottom line is our community believes in choice, not just one monolithic/forced way of doing everything. If you want that, Mac is the preferable solution, followed of course by Windows.

[tanelt]

The mass petition to make Dell offer desktop computers with Ubuntu preinstalled was one of the only smart moves in years.


Linux is not Ubuntu.
Uh huh. And it's not just "Linux" either, it's GNU/Linux. Yet people still refer to it with just "Linux. But then again we aren't giving credit to all the developers and contributors, so let's call it GNU/Linux/Apache/PHP/MySQL/KDE/Gnome/Xfce/Enlightenment/Fluxbox/etc. Let's not agree on anything and build our own versions of things that will never be used by more than 2% of the people in the world, at most.

The bottom line is that Linux is excellent as a server. You can change everything on the server just from a SSH client in Windows. Awesome! But on a desktop? I just don't see it happening.

Unless enough people start working together on a single project to create a certain unified standard way of doing things on Linux desktops, it will never ever be more than a hobby.


This thread isn't going anywhere, so it might as well be locked/trashed or whatever.

[screaminj3sus]

Well I do agree with you on one thing (The fun resolution/ refresh rate adventures, but the new x.org in the next version of ubuntu looks like it should sort this out). Distro's like ubuntu have a good default set of applications, they come with everything most people need so many average users would not need to know about different DE's ect.. Ubuntu does everything windows can and more for me besides the games I play (But OSX can't do that either) and it offers choice for users that want it.

[23meg]

Let's not agree on anything and build our own versions of things that will never be used by more than 2% of the people in the world, at most.

Read this: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/homesteading/

[runningwithscissors]

Uh huh. And it's not just "Linux" either, it's GNU/Linux. Yet people still refer to it with just "Linux. But then again we aren't giving credit to all the developers and contributors, so let's call it GNU/Linux/Apache/PHP/MySQL/KDE/Gnome/Xfce/Enlightenment/Fluxbox/etc.
As you please. We won't stop you. Linux is good enough for me. Guhnoo/Linux for RMS and a few others. Blah/blah/and blah/Linux for some.


Let's not agree on anything and build our own versions of things that will never be used by more than 2% of the people in the world, at most.And that is a concern because....?


Unless enough people start working together on a single project to create a certain unified standard way of doing things on Linux desktops, it will never ever be more than a hobby.
Never going to happen. It just isn't the nature of the beast.


This thread isn't going anywhere, so it might as well be locked/trashed or whatever.Whatever indeed.

[tanelt]

The fun resolution/ refresh rate adventures, but the new x.org in the next version of ubuntu looks like it should sort this out

Heh, I would be DYING to see that happening. For years and years I've tried out countless number of distros, hoping one day this problem will no longer be ignored by the developers.


Never going to happen. It just isn't the nature of the beast.
If that's the case, the beast will always be alone.

[Ireclan]

This thread isn't going anywhere, so it might as well be locked/trashed or whatever.


Why do you keep replying in this thread, in light of what I just quoted you as saying? What I have just quoted you as saying indicates a desire to TERMINATE conversation, not CONTINUE it...

[prizrak]

Heh, I would be DYING to see that happening. For years and years I've tried out countless number of distros, hoping one day this problem will no longer be ignored by the developers.


Never had that issue with the CRT's. Obviously a non issue with LCD's

[MOS95B]

(Since my previous top was moved to the trash before I could reply, I'll do it here.)
Reading and abiding by the rules would have avoided that

Yeah right. Even though I hate microsoft, I'm forced to use it at school and also there's no other way for me to play games without wind0ze. Wine and all other stuff make the framerate drop by 50%.
You use it at school because it is the most common OS out there. Unless you are taking a class for a specific subject, you're going to use the tools that most people will continue to use after school, no matter the subject. There are people than can drive nails with their bare hands, but if you go to a Carpenter's Union school, they will teach you to use a hammer, like most of their students will do in the real world.

And, Ubuntu/Linux/*nix won't play games, because at it's core, it is a business OS. It's being made more personal all the time, so who knows what will happen in the future. But, until the gaming industry thinks enough people will buy games for linux.....

I like Linux, I like the philosopy around it and everything, but the point is that I can't understand why can't people work on a single environment and make it truly GREAT. Why there have to be 10000000000000 billion different ways (which all suck major ***, by the way) to do the EXACT SAME THING?
Because 10000000000000 billion different are writing the free software you want to use, not just a select few companies.

It's true that in most cases you can't have simplicity and funtionality together, but if you look at the VLC media player for example, it has the "advanced settings" checkbox under every preferences' page. So that newcomers can use only the things that matter to them and not be bugged down with all the technical details while the experts can still fine tune everything. Why can't people do something like that for Linux?
Because noone has asked politely or offered to help with this developement, maybe??

And oh yeah, please forgive me for voicing my opinion.
Voicing your opinion, while following the advice from my first reply, would like have avoided this issue....

PS, I'm new here, and not extremely active, but I can already tell why the regulars aren't extremely tolerant of yet another "Linux sucks because in Windows I can...." posts....