Sun Reaches Out to Linus - will he go?

[southernman]

Got this in my inbox today from Linux Magazine:

<snip>
It seems these days more and more vendors have a vested interest in Linux. Microsoft recently hired away Tom Hanrahan from the Linux Foundation to head up its Linux interoperability efforts. Prior to that, Sun hired Ian Murdock, creator of Debian, for the newly created position of Chief Operating Officer, focusing on Solaris.

And now Sun is again reaching out to the Linux community, this time with an open letter from CEO Jonathan Schwartz to Linux Torvalds inviting him to consider both dinner and an "An OpenSolaris/Linux Mashup." Jonathan's suggestion is an excellent one, if a bit complex since some of the technology that makes Solaris unique isn't openly available.
</snip>

I've not really been in the game long enough to know what this could/does mean. Is it posturing, or do you all think it's a sign of things to come?

Link to the Source (http://www.linux-mag.com/id/3503/)

I wouldn't expect to see Linus take the job offer... Dinner perhaps! Though a free meal may not be worth the pressure that will come with it.

[n0dl]

If you read the book Just For Fun you would know Mr. Torvald's relationship with Sun isn't exactly hugs and kisses

[starcraft.man]

Bleh, I dunno what to make of it. I doubt it's gonna happen less Sun does something really nice like put zfs under gpl... Anyway, Linus will do whatever he likes... I don't think anyone here can read his mind, can they? :p

[southernman]

Just reading the description of the book at thinkgeek, makes my mouth water. Going to order it now!

Thanks for the tip.

[southernman]

I don't think anyone here can read his mind, can they? :p
No sir, they can not. Just looking for others opinions as to what they (you) think may happen. That's all.

[DeadSuperHero]

Well, I trust Sun Microsystems way more than I trust Microsoft.
To see interoperability between Solaris, and Linux...that'd be something. I'm especially excited about their Looking Glass interface.
All in all, Sun makes Java. And if this could be better integrated into Linux, that'd make for a very exceptional piece of software.

[muximus]

well in any case.. java works loads faster on linux than it does on windows.

[blah blah blah]

...An OpenSolaris/Linux Mashup...

\\:D/

[hanzomon4]

It seems good, considering the neat stuff sun has come up with lately. I would love to have zfs on linux, with a damn good gui to make it's features useful for the "resta of us". Better yet Having two really good open source kernels(opensolaris) to run everything else on top of would be interesting at the least. From what I understand Sun has crappy driver support in comparison to linux so a mashup would have benefits for both communities. What other tech does sun have that would be beneficial to linux and Desktop Gnu/whatever?

I'm not to informed regarding the politics, or legal issues, but if it could be done in a way that helps both opensolaris and linux I say "meaux better".

[kamaboko]

If you read the book Just For Fun you would know Mr. Torvald's relationship with Sun isn't exactly hugs and kisses

Money has a way of healing differences.

[Gremlinzzz]

Linus has too do something can't just isolate linux from other companys.The real extintion of linux freedom comes from bill gates.He's chipping away little by little till he claims linux for microsoft.:(Sad but true.

[RAV TUX]

for those like myself who don't like linking out to some random article(especially a random poll) here is the OP's linked (so-called) article:


Sun Reaches Out to Linus

Thursday, June 14th, 2007By Bryan Richard (http://www.linux-mag.com/author/124)It seems these days more and more vendors have a vested interest in Linux. Microsoft recently hired away Tom Hanrahan from the Linux Foundation to head up its Linux interoperability efforts. Prior to that, Sun hired Ian Murdock, creator of Debian, for the newly created position of Chief Operating Officer, focusing on Solaris.
And now Sun is again reaching out to the Linux community, this time with an open letter from CEO Jonathan Schwartz (http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/one_plus_one_is_fifty) to Linux Torvalds inviting him to consider both dinner and an "An OpenSolaris/Linux Mashup." Jonathan's suggestion is an excellent one, if a bit complex since some of the technology that makes Solaris unique isn't openly available.
My question for the comments is how can both parties benefit from working together and do you trust Sun in its new role as an "Open Source company?"

http://www.linux-mag.com/id/3503/

much more important then that, here is the Open Letter by Jonathan Schwartz:


Wednesday Jun 13, 2007


An OpenSolaris/Linux Mashup

To non-technical readers of this blog, or those uninterested in the ebbs and tides of the free software world... this might be a good entry to skip.
I was just forwarded a pointer to this note (http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/12/232) regarding Sun and OpenSolaris, written by the eponymous Linus Torvalds. And I wanted to respond directly.
__________________________
Linus,
First, I'm glad you give credit to Sun for the contributions we've made to the open source world, and Linux specifically - we take the commitment seriously. It's why we freed OpenOffice, elements of Gnome, Mozilla, delivered Java, and a long list of other contributions that show up in almost every distro. Individuals will always define communities, but Sun as a company has done its part to grow the market - for others as much as ourselves.
But I disagree with a few of your points. Did the Linux community hurt Sun? No, not a bit. It was the companies that leveraged their work. I draw a very sharp distinction - even if our competition is conveniently reckless. They like to paint the battle as Sun vs. the community, and it's not. Companies compete, communities simply fracture.
And OpenSolaris (http://www.opensolaris.org/) has come a very long way since you last looked. It and its community are growing, as a result of more than ZFS (although we seem to be generating a lot of interest there, not all intentional (http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199903525)) - OpenSolaris scales on any hardware, has built in virtualization, great web service infrastucture (https://glassfish.dev.java.net/), fault management, diagnosability, and tons more. Feel free to try for yourself (http://developers.sun.com/sxde/download.jsp) (and yes, we're fixing installability, no fair knocking us for that.)
Now despite what you suggest, we love where the FSF's GPL3 is headed. For a variety of mechanical reasons, GPL2 is harder for us with OpenSolaris - but not impossible, or even out of the question. This has nothing to do with being afraid of the community (if it was, we wouldn't be so interested in seeing ZFS everywhere (http://wiki.freebsd.org/ZFS), including Linux, with full patent indemnity). Why does open sourcing take so long? Because we're starting from products that exist, in which a diversity of contributors and licensors/licensees have rights we have to negotiate. Indulge me when I say It's different than starting from scratch. I would love to go faster, and we are all doing everything under our control to accelerate progress. (Remember, we can't even pick GPL3 yet - it doesn't officially exist.) It's also a delicate dance to manage this transition while growing a corporation.
But most of all, from where I sit, we should put the swords down - you're not the enemy for us, we're not the enemy for you. Most of the world doesn't have access to the internet - that's the enemy to slay, the divide that separates us. By joining our communities, we can bring transparency and opportunity to the whole planet. Are we after your drivers? No more than you're after ZFS (http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/zfs/) or Crossbow (http://blogs.sun.com/sunay/entry/crossbow_solaris_network_virtualization_resource) or dtrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DTrace) - it's not predation, it's prudence. Let's stop wasting time recreating wheels we both need to roll forward.
I wanted you to hear this from me directly. We want to work together, we want to join hands and communities - we have no intention of holding anything back, or pulling patent nonsense. And to prove the sincerity of the offer, I invite you to my house for dinner. I'll cook, you bring the wine. A mashup in the truest sense.
Best,
Jonathan
President, Chief Executive Officer,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Posted on 12:14AM Jun 13, 2007 (http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/one_plus_one_is_fifty) | Comments[97] (http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/one_plus_one_is_fifty#comments)
http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/one_plus_one_is_fifty

Even more important then that here is the "note" from Linus:


Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2007 08:45:46 -0700 (PDT)
From:Linus Torvalds <>
SubjectRe: Dual-Licensing Linux Kernel with GPL V2 and GPL V3On Tue, 12 Jun 2007, Alexandre Oliva wrote:
>
> Per this reasoning, Sun wouldn't be waiting for GPLv3, and it would
> have already released the OpenSolaris kernel under GPLv2, would it
> not? ;-)

Umm. You are making the fundamental mistake of thinking that Sun is in
this to actually further some open-source agenda.

Here's a cynical prediction (but backed up by past behaviour of Sun):

- first off: they may be talking a lot more than they are or ever will
be doing. How many announcements about Sun and Linux have you seen over
the years? And how much of that has actually happened?

- They may like open source, but Linux _has_ hurt them in the
marketplace. A lot.

They almost used to own the chip design market, and it took quite a
long time before the big EDA vendors ported to Linux (and x86-64 in
particular). But when they did, their chip design market just basically
disappeared: sparc performance is so horribly bad (especially on a
workstation kind of setup), that to do chip design on them is just
idiotic. Which is not to say that there aren't holdouts, but let's face
it, for a lot of things, Solaris is simply the wrong choice these days.

Ergo: they sure as hell don't want to help Linux. Which is fine.
Competition is good.

- So they want to use Linux resources (_especially_ drivers), but they do
*not* want to give anything back (especially ZFS, which seems to be one
of their very very few bright spots).

- Ergo: they'll not be releasing ZFS and the other things that people are
drooling about in a way that lets Linux use them on an equal footing. I
can pretty much guarantee that. They don't like competition on that
level. They'd *much* rather take our drivers and _not_ give anythign
back, or give back the stuff that doesn't matter (like core Solaris:
who are you kidding - Linux code is _better_).

End result:

- they'll talk about it. They not only drool after our drivers, they
drool after all the _people_ who write drivers. They'd love to get
kernel developers from Linux, they see that we have a huge amount of
really talented people. So they want to talk things up, and the more
"open source" they can position themselves, the better.

- They may release the uninteresting parts under some fine license. See
the OpenSolaris stuff - instead of being blinded by the code they _did_
release under an open source license, ask yourself what they did *not*
end up releasing. Ask yourself why the open source parts are not ready
to bootstrap a competitive system, or why they are released under
licenses that Sun can make sure they control.

So the _last_ thing they want to do is to release the interesting stuff
under GPLv2 (quite frankly, I think the only really interesting thing they
have is ZFS, and even there, I suspect we'd be better off talking to
NetApp, and seeing if they are interested in releasing WAFL for Linux).

Yes, they finally released Java under GPLv2, and they should be commended
for that. But you should also ask yourself why, and why it took so long.
Maybe it had something to do with the fact that other Java implementations
started being more and more relevant?

Am I cynical? Yes. Do I expect people to act in their own interests? Hell
yes! That's how things are _supposed_ to happen. I'm not at all berating
Sun, what I'm trying to do here is to wake people up who seem to be living
in some dream-world where Sun wants to help people.

So to Sun, a GPLv3-only release would actually let them look good, and
still keep Linux from taking their interesting parts, and would allow them
to take at least parts of Linux without giving anything back (ahh, the
joys of license fragmentation).

Of course, they know that. And yes, maybe ZFS is worthwhile enough that
I'm willing to go to the effort of trying to relicense the kernel. But
quite frankly, I can almost guarantee that Sun won't release ZFS under the
GPLv3 even if they release other parts. Because if they did, they'd lose
the patent protection.

And yes, I'm cynical, and yes, I hope I'm wrong. And if I'm wrong, I'll
very happily retract anything cynical I said about Sun. They _have_ done
great things, and maybe I'm just too pessimistic about all the history
I've seen of Sun with open source.

The _good_ news is that Jonathan Schwartz actually does seem to have made
a difference, and I hope to God he is really as serious about
open-sourcing things as he says he is. And don't get me wrong: I think a
truly open-source GPLv3 Solaris would be a really really _good_ thing,
even if it does end up being a one-way street as far as code is concerned!

Linushttp://lkml.org/lkml/2007/6/12/232

[Ireclan]

Wow....Linus came off as sounding like someone I'd really hate to meet in real life.

[james_2002uk]

I don't think he'll "go to bed with sun" but It would be brilliant if both solaris and Linux were on the same Lisence and both communities could share innovations and code. ZFS on Linux!

[LightB]

Wow....Linus came off as sounding like someone I'd really hate to meet in real life.

He came off as a smart, no-nonsense guy to me.

[Ireclan]

He came off as a smart, no-nonsense guy to me.



He came off as sounding anti-altruistic to me.....Sorta like he condoned an "Everyone for themselves!" kind of attitude.

[Tux Aubrey]

There are really two issues here, folks:


inviting him to consider both dinner and an "An OpenSolaris/Linux Mashup.

No one has yet addressed the really important question - will he go to dinner? Personally, I would accept that offer. These corpoate types are capable of putting on a pretty good spread and Linus could order the most expensive stuff on the menu. I don't think Linus would be silly enough to miss that opportunity, so I voted "yes".

I don't know what an "OpenSolariaris/Linux Mashup" is, so I can't comment. But I am pretty good on food strategy issues.

[LightB]

He came off as sounding anti-altruistic to me.....Sorta like he condoned an "Everyone for themselves!" kind of attitude.

I'd call it practicality. Everyone is for themselves by default, esp. in business.

[CarpKing]

No matter what he does with the rest of the offer, I'd like to see him go to dinner. I don't know what parts of the world either of them hang out in, though, so travel expenses could be an issue.

[kevinlyfellow]

There are really two issues here, folks:


inviting him to consider both dinner and an "An OpenSolaris/Linux Mashup.

No one has yet addressed the really important question - will he go to dinner? Personally, I would accept that offer. These corpoate types are capable of putting on a pretty good spread and Linus could order the most expensive stuff on the menu. I don't think Linus would be silly enough to miss that opportunity, so I voted "yes".

I don't know what an "OpenSolariaris/Linux Mashup" is, so I can't comment. But I am pretty good on food strategy issues.

I'm sure Linus could afford a nice dinner on his own. He made millions on Red Hat and VA Linux. But a free meal is a free meal even when you are a millionaire. I think he'll go for the dinner. But as a student, its hard to imagine someone saying no to free food.

As far as the other subject, I think he will "work" for Sun so long as it doesn't affect kernel development and his family life.

[kevinlyfellow]

No matter what he does with the rest of the offer, I'd like to see him go to dinner. I don't know what parts of the world either of them hang out in, though, so travel expenses could be an issue.

Linus lives in San Jose. I'm sure Sun has operations out in the area

[RAV TUX]

Linus lives in San Jose. I'm sure Sun has operations out in the area
Actually Linus lives in Beaverton, Oregon ( a suburb of Portland, Oregon~unless he has moved recently?)

[southernman]

What's the foul? *gasp*


for those like myself who don't like linking out to some random article(especially a random poll) here is the OP's linked (so-called) article:




Warning - quote from an outside source to substantiate the calling it an article. With a link of all things!


ar·ti·cle (ärt-kl)
n.
1. An individual thing or element of a class; a particular object or item: an article of clothing; articles of food.
2. A particular section or item of a series in a written document, as in a contract, constitution, or treaty.
3. A nonfictional literary composition that forms an independent part of a publication, as of a newspaper or magazine.
4. Grammar
a. The part of speech used to indicate nouns and to specify their application.
b. Any of the words belonging to this part of speech. In English, the indefinite articles are a and an and the definite article is the.
5. A particular part or subject; a specific matter or point.
tr.v. ar·ti·cled, ar·ti·cling, ar·ti·cles
To bind by articles set forth in a contract, such as one of apprenticeship.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/article

It seems to fit description #3 pretty well. Did it have a poll along with it... sure. Should I have warned people if they clicked on the link they'd be beaten with a wet noodle for not participating in that poll? Come on, give us a break here.

Please, do enlighten me on the rules of engagement here in the forum...

"Live long, and prosper."

[Spr0k3t]

I'm hoping he goes. I really enjoy what Sun has done with Solaris and Java (use them both) and would love to see Torvalds collaborate with them.

[kamaboko]

Actually Linus lives in Beaverton, Oregon ( a suburb of Portland, Oregon~unless he has moved recently?)

Yes, you can see him from time to time at Powell's Technical Book Store thumbing through the MS books.

[RAV TUX]

What's the foul? *gasp*


My apologies, I didn't mean to offend you personally, I just really abhor linking out to outside articles(or polls). Except when absolutely necessary.


Yes, you can see him from time to time at Powell's Technical Book Store thumbing through the MS books.

LOL...now that is a funny image.

[kevinlyfellow]

Actually Linus lives in Beaverton, Oregon ( a suburb of Portland, Oregon~unless he has moved recently?)

I didn't know that. He was in San Jose, but my information was a "little" outdated, Wikipedia say he moved in '04. And he stopped working for Transmeta too!

[Tundro Walker]

Yes.

Because I voted that he would...

Side Note, great programmers don't necessarily make great leaders. Just because someone's really good at something doesn't mean he can lead a company at it to fame and fortune. That's why both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates stepped aside, and brought in MBA's to help grow the business.

[steven8]

Yes.

Because I voted that he would...

Side Note, great programmers don't necessarily make great leaders. Just because someone's really good at something doesn't mean he can lead a company at it to fame and fortune. That's why both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates stepped aside, and brought in MBA's to help grow the business.

And an MBA can be the downfall of a company, if all they are is an MBA, with book knowledge, not company smarts and experienced. I've always felt this way, but had confirmation when I talked to a fella once about MBAs. He worked for a 100 year old company, who'd always promoted from within. The CEO was always a long time employee with a vested interest and love for the company and it's people. Then the 'board' decided to oust the CEO, and brought in an MBA from the outside. They shut their doors ten years later.

[Arathorn]

That's why both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates stepped aside, and brought in MBA's to help grow the business.
Is that why Apple nearly got bankrupt before Jobs took over again?

[steven8]

Is that why Apple nearly got bankrupt before Jobs took over again?

Possibly.

[Tomosaur]

Torvalds can do whatever he likes, in all honesty - it's his life, and every time I see something about him on the web, it's usually followed by a whole bunch of 'He shouldn't do this, he should do that' statements. I personally don't think he'll go to Sun, from what I've read of Linus' postings I don't think he likes Sun all that much, but at the end of the day, if they win him over, then more power to them I say. Sun aren't necessarily an enemy (in terms of open-source, Linux development etc), it's just that they could have been more open and co-operative than they have been in the past.

[Tundro Walker]

Is that why Apple nearly got bankrupt before Jobs took over again?

I'll need to clarify the context with which I made my comment....

Jobs & Woz had a success with their Apple ][e, but Jobs drive for idealism, quality, and a think-tank work environment came at a large price (IE: their product cost a lot of money as an end result). That's how Microsoft was able to get their foot in the door during the 80's...by a) providing a software platform that ran on generic PC's, rather then specifically only on a Apple Macs, and 2) by making that software/hardware solution cost less then Apple's.

After Microsoft's success, Jobs brought in MBA's to grow the company, because he needed some business minds to rein in his idealistic, think-tank mentality. It worked in the short-term, because they were able to temper his drive for quality and perfection with their ability to actually produce things for a reasonable cost and make a reasonable profit. But, as you pointed out, he gave them too much control, and thus (folks in power always wanting more power) they got out control.

Apple became the typical "big business", cost-cutting consumer quality, and cutting corners on product design. With a few flops, mostly spear-headed by MBA-types that didn't know anything about electronics, much less computers, they were hurting really bad. And, as you pointed out, Jobs left (because the MBA types who took over considered him entrenched management, and his idealistics were "hindering" their profit motive). But, after the MBA's chewed up and spit out Apple as a shell of its former self, Jobs came back, swept up the pieces, and has since learned from his mistakes, tempering his own idealism with practical business sense to re-create Apple as a mainstream company again.

I think the difference between Jobs and Gates was that Bill kept enough control of the company to keep from getting bullied out by the MBA-types he brought in....Jobs didn't. Plus, Bill, while a nerd and always wanting to focus on innovation, thought more like an MBA...on making lower-cost product that cost a moderate sum in order to make a decent profit. It wasn't the "best" on the market, but it was simply the best for its price range. And companies almost always go for the lower (immediate) cost solution. Microsoft was that solution, but has turned into a bear to maintain. But, it has turned into a perpetual, self-feeding bear. New companies decide to go with Microsoft, because it's a devil most of them already know, and there's tons of IT professionals who know how to maintain it, and working professionals who know how to use it. But there's tons of IT folks for it, because it takes so many to keep it going. It's like eating chips and cold salsa. The salsa starts burning your mouth, so you eat more cold salsa to cool off your mouth, which makes your mouth burn more. It's a never-ending cycle.

[Kimm]

I don't really see how this would be much of a problem. Sun is opening up their sourcecode and to have an excellent programmer like Linus on "the inside" could prove very beneficial for Linux in the long run. A Solaris/Linux mashup would prove very nice, Solaris speed and stability combined with Linux hardware support... mmmm.... (mind you, Linux is GPL meaning that the Solaris license would have to be GPL-compatable = lots of goodness to the Linux world).

Anyway, its not like Linus is the only kernel-developer, it wouldn't be hard to find someone to do his job (perhaps GNU might embrace the project more)

[Tux Aubrey]

I feel sorry for the guy; having his private life debated all over the web.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z177/Aubrey2_album/TheLinusDiaries1.png

[Extreme Coder]

I feel sorry for the guy; having his private life debated all over the web.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z177/Aubrey2_album/TheLinusDiaries1.png
ROFL

[muguwmp67]

What the heck is a 'mash-up?. It sure doesn't sound fun to me, unless it involves a food fight during the dinner.

[RAV TUX]

What the heck is a 'mash-up?. It sure doesn't sound fun to me, unless it involves a food fight during the dinner.

Mash potatoes...