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ivesjd
June 2nd, 2007, 12:44 AM
Who thinks that Dell did the right thing with Ubuntu and the prices? I think there should be a bigger price difference between a ubuntu machine and vista machine.

merlinus
June 2nd, 2007, 12:52 AM
If you expect Dell to do the right thing, then I have a bridge to sell you.

It's all about the money..... and they just fired some 7,000 workers.

-merlin

ronocdh
June 2nd, 2007, 01:21 AM
If you expect Dell to do the right thing, then you must love Microsoft.

It's all about the money..... and they just fired some 7,000 workers.

-merlin
I fail to understand how "making money" and "doing the right thing" cannot possibly coincide. I think that Dell's choice to provide Ubuntu is an excellent step in the right direction, and this summer I'll be buying a laptop from them, because I want to make sure they understand I approve.

Alex Fernandez
June 2nd, 2007, 02:07 AM
I fail to understand how "making money" and "doing the right thing" cannot possibly coincide. I think that Dell's choice to provide Ubuntu is an excellent step in the right direction, and this summer I'll be buying a laptop from them, because I want to make sure they understand I approve.

The only advantage of Dell doing this for us is that now instead of just the community telling NV/ATI to sort thier drivers, Dell too will be telling them to sort it.

stmiller
June 2nd, 2007, 04:20 AM
The Vista version that comes with the Windows machine is the crappy basic version. You are actually getting a lot more functionality with the Ubuntu machine, and it's cheaper.

jsmidt
June 2nd, 2007, 05:13 AM
If Dell wanted to do the right things, for Linux and themselves. they would sell their machines in Europe. There is a good Linux market there.

Next they need to have some special repo's so that you can get stuff specific to your machine, like the correct Nvidia drivers.

But if Dell really will push this around the world, and provide good hardware support, it will work.

PS. With the Europe thing: I know they claim they can't support a bunch of languages but I bet if they could support just a few they would still sell allot.

deadlikeoscar
June 2nd, 2007, 05:30 AM
If you want to properly compare the cost of an Ubuntu system to a Vista one you need to remember that Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop (or whatever) cost money. If Open Office and the GIMP provide you with the functionality that you need (which is true for most people) then you have no reason to fork over a bunch of money for software--software you pretty much need. I know you can get open source software for Windows as well, but my point is that most people don't realize it when they order a Dell system. Even if they don't want to work with photos now, the possibility that, in the future, they may will often times justify the extra cost in their minds.

iMav
June 2nd, 2007, 11:39 AM
I fail to understand how "making money" and "doing the right thing" cannot possibly coincide. I think that Dell's choice to provide Ubuntu is an excellent step in the right direction, and this summer I'll be buying a laptop from them, because I want to make sure they understand I approve.
I am very happy with Dell's decision to start selling systems pre-installed with Ubuntu!

However, I will not be buying a laptop from them...simply because every Dell laptop comes with the same, crap keyboard. (what's up with that, anyway?) Will definitely consider a desktop system in the future though.

mark
June 2nd, 2007, 12:18 PM
OK - back after the power outage...I just ordered one of their laptops. (A) because it seemed like a good deal and (B) to show a little Linux love...

Seriously, what's wrong with the keyboard? One of the guys at work just got a new Dell and he loves it.

BionicBigfoot
June 2nd, 2007, 02:54 PM
I think that DELL did do something right. I agree with another post that graphic card drivers could end up being more stable if a big manufacturer like DELL is involved. In addition, I think M$ is getting worried. What with Microsoft wanting all of the sudden wanting Royalties from Linux and Open Source "Patent Infringements" http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7269

I also think that it is a tiny step for gaming companies to realize that there really is a an audience of Linux users and more people to market their games towards. Meaning that Open-GL (or another open source platform) might start giving Direct X 10 some serious competition.

Anyway, I just overall feel it is a step (albeit a tiny one) in the right direction.

PS: I don't really like Dell based on some bad experience personally. And when I was working as an A+ technician a few years ago, I noticed that DELL pc's were the most frequent pc's we had to repair.

Lord Illidan
June 2nd, 2007, 03:05 PM
I think Microsoft also subsidises Vista for them, i.e. Dell probably gets a discount when getting Windows, perhaps also because it buys licenses in bulk. Then, it is also paid to put crapware on them.

billybobshibal
June 2nd, 2007, 03:57 PM
Dell is doing what some of their customers asked for, whether it lasts remains to be seen. The prices seem reasonable and the hardware is decent. It's a very simple start but who will be buying this? I'm an AV Tech in a resort and I really doubt that I'll be seeing any UbunDell's any time soon usually because people have no idea how their own computers work. Besides Dell's seem to have the most random odd ball problems as far as video outputting problems and playback. I suspect the Intel integrated graphics chip is the root of these problems.

P.S. Merlin, Dell lays off 7000 people now and once demand picks back up they'll hire 10,000 more. If you're really concerned you should buy a Dell.

ageilers
June 2nd, 2007, 04:08 PM
I am very happy that Dell is offering up an Opensource alternative. It is about time one of the big manufacturers does something. MS must be pissed. I see MS is threatening all of Opensource because of so called patent infringements. "Pay us or else." I would like to see how many patent infringements they have.
Seeing that Dells offerings work out of the box (see XPS410N (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2767571#post2767571)) who can complain. As for the video drivers, it is up to Nvidia and ATI to create Opensource drivers to become Ubuntu supported. Using the nv driver works, although the nvidia driver is much better.

Kudos Dell!

handy
June 2nd, 2007, 04:22 PM
I think that it is a positive thing for Linux & Open Source.

As far as Dell doing the right thing is concerned?

It is just a business strategy for Dell, they are trying to win back some market share.

MepisReign
June 2nd, 2007, 04:43 PM
Dell is doing something that no other company has done before on the Open Source direction, that is good enough for me, period.

MepisReign

merlinus
June 2nd, 2007, 08:09 PM
Not true!!!

System7 and a few other companies were selling linux computers years before Dell came on board.

These folks were the pioneers, willing to take the risks.

Now a mega-corporation, not much different from M$, sees gold in them-thar-hills, and far too many folks jump on the bandwagon with a narrow perspective.

Buy locally, and when you can't, buy from the small guys who were at the forefront of open-source.

Not from the wannabe monopolists like Michael Dell who smell the money and want to take over.

My $.05 worth....

:D :D :D

-merlin

z0phi3l
June 2nd, 2007, 08:42 PM
I think that DELL did do something right. I agree with another post that graphic card drivers could end up being more stable if a big manufacturer like DELL is involved. In addition, I think M$ is getting worried. What with Microsoft wanting all of the sudden wanting Royalties from Linux and Open Source "Patent Infringements" http://dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=7269

I also think that it is a tiny step for gaming companies to realize that there really is a an audience of Linux users and more people to market their games towards. Meaning that Open-GL (or another open source platform) might start giving Direct X 10 some serious competition.

Anyway, I just overall feel it is a step (albeit a tiny one) in the right direction.

PS: I don't really like Dell based on some bad experience personally. And when I was working as an A+ technician a few years ago, I noticed that DELL pc's were the most frequent pc's we had to repair.

I work in a pure DELL environment for the Navy, I have to say that their 745's and 600 series laptops work great considering the environment we are in, yes the DELL Tech's are in once a week but considering we output ~ 600 machines a day, the 4-5 they repair a week is a minuscule number comparatively.

And yes I think this is a great thing for them to do, as long as this is a long term deal and not some short term kissup to the community

ivesjd
June 2nd, 2007, 09:03 PM
I went to dells site to look around, and couldnt actually find a computer with ubuntu on it, (or as an option). Is it they only offer it on certain machines? If so, which ones?

benanzo
June 2nd, 2007, 09:37 PM
http://www.dell.com/open

swoll1980
June 3rd, 2007, 12:25 AM
I think think their going to have a huge customer service issue. People are not as familiar with Linux,everytime it takes them longer than 5 minutes to figure something out their going to want the free customer service that comes with the cpu. Not smart!!!

caro
June 3rd, 2007, 03:46 AM
If nothing else, Dell is making people at least understand there are alternatives to Microsoft out there. I applaud their effort, and since I am new to Ubuntu and Linux in general, I bought a Dell laptop so I wouldn't have to deal with hardware issues as a newbie.

dorsett
June 3rd, 2007, 08:09 AM
I configured two Dell inspiron 1505 notebooks with the exact same equipment, but one had Vista Home Basic and one had ubuntu, they came out to be the exact same price. Dell is ripping ubuntu users off. Why not just buy the Vista machine, install Ubuntu and ebay your legal copy of Vista. The fact that you can not switch between ubuntu and vista in their customization options (You have to start with either a Ubuntu or Vista machine) should tip people off that something is fishy. What would we be paying the extra $100 for that Dell is saving by not giving you a Vista copy?

Another sneaky thing is that the Ubuntu machine starts at $599, while the Vista machine starts at $699, making you think you are saving a $100, but when you try to make them equivalent like I have shown below, they become the same price. Scandalous.

Dell Inspiron 1505

$699 Vista (if I chose Intel Pro Wireless(only ubunut option) becomes $728)

1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm [Included in Price]
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 7300 TurboCache™ [Included in Price]

Dell Wireless 1390b/g (54Mbps) [Included in Price]
Intel PRO/Wireless 3945a/g [add $29 or $1/month1]

$599 Ubuntu (upgrading to equivalent RAM & Video becomes $728)

512MB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 DIMM [Included in Price]
1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm [add $50 or $2/month1]

Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950 [Included in Price]
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 7300 TurboCache™ [add $79 or $2/month1]

Intel PRO/Wireless 3945a/g [Included in Price]

jgrabham
June 3rd, 2007, 10:33 AM
Not a lot we can do about it. I have the feeling MS are involved in some contract here!

hellmet
June 3rd, 2007, 10:53 AM
I've said this before in my thread. Micro has def. got its dirty hand in this too!!

Chandon
June 3rd, 2007, 03:58 PM
How do you get the Windows machine to include the GeForce Go 7300? It includes an ATI card by default, and the information I have would imply that Dell would charge $30 to move from the ATI card to the Nvidia card if that option were available.

z0phi3l
June 3rd, 2007, 05:10 PM
You're missing some options:

Video card differences (can't fix)
Office suite (added Office Home and Student)
NIC/Wireless, had to add same chipset as the UBUNTU one


DELL UBUNTU: $1468
DELL VISTA $1725

This is the price for a fairly decked out laptop.

That's an almost $300 diference and the UBUNTU one will most likely run better. :P

Jeroen Vernooij
June 3rd, 2007, 05:16 PM
You're missing some options:

Video card differences (can't fix)
Office suite (added Office Home and Student)
NIC/Wireless, had to add same chipset as the UBUNTU one


DELL UBUNTU: $1468
DELL VISTA $1725

This is the price for a fairly decked out laptop.

That's an almost $300 diference and the UBUNTU one will most likely run better. :P

What he said, but adding:
ubuntu can suffice with 512MB RAM while vista NEEDS 1G RAM.
Ubuntu is less hardware-requiring so you can go with lower specs thereby saving money.
The integrated intel graphics-chip is awesome by the way, beryl/compiz runs very well on it and it doesn't run hot and requires much power (nvidia does)

dorsett
June 3rd, 2007, 06:19 PM
Here are the links I started with on two Inspiron E1505 machines. All the options that are missing from the first post had identical defaults for both machines.

I started with a Ubunutu $599 E1505N here:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&kc=6V440&l=en&oc=DNCWEL1&s=dhs

and a Vista $699 E1505 here:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DNCWEA1&s=dhs

Not sure how long the links will last. They change prices and deals all the time.

The two systems were identical as far as I could tell with these options
Intel® Pentium® dual-core T2080(1MB Cache/1.73GHz/533MHz FSB
Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Basic
15.4 inch Wide Screen XGA Display
1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm
80GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)
24X CD Burner/DVD Combo Drive
256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1400 HyperMemory™
Integrated Audio

I understand that ubuntu doesn't need as many resources and that Dell makes money installing random programs on a Vista machine. I'm just saying if you want to use Ubuntu, buy the vista machine, sell your Vista license and install Ubunutu yourself. You'll have a better laptop for the same amount of money. Of course, there was no option to downgrade the Vista machine's video card

dorsett
June 3rd, 2007, 06:24 PM
You're missing some options:

Video card differences (can't fix)
Office suite (added Office Home and Student)
NIC/Wireless, had to add same chipset as the UBUNTU one


DELL UBUNTU: $1468
DELL VISTA $1725

This is the price for a fairly decked out laptop.

That's an almost $300 diference and the UBUNTU one will most likely run better. :P

Like I said, buy the Vista, without MS Office, sell you Vista License and install Ubunutu.

You can not compare prices and include MS Office, when you can install OpenOffice on a PC just as Ubuntu.

You're configuring a different machione soI can not address the video card differences you are experiencing, see my last post.

z0phi3l
June 3rd, 2007, 06:59 PM
Like I said, buy the Vista, without MS Office, sell you Vista License and install Ubunutu.

You can not compare prices and include MS Office, when you can install OpenOffice on a PC just as Ubuntu.

You're configuring a different machione soI can not address the video card differences you are experiencing, see my last post.

UBUNTU comes with an Office suite so to make your comparison accurate you HAVE to include the price of Office in the Vista version.

FreakyT
June 3rd, 2007, 07:04 PM
UBUNTU comes with an Office suite so to make your comparison accurate you HAVE to include the price of Office in the Vista version.

Couldn't you just install OpenOffice for free on the Vista computer?

z0phi3l
June 3rd, 2007, 07:07 PM
Couldn't you just install OpenOffice for free on the Vista computer?

Does OpenOffice come preinstalled from DELL?

FreakyT
June 3rd, 2007, 07:14 PM
Does OpenOffice come preinstalled from DELL?

Well, not preinstalled, but its cost certainly isn't the same as that of OpenOffice.

z0phi3l
June 3rd, 2007, 07:55 PM
Well, not preinstalled, but its cost certainly isn't the same as that of OpenOffice.

My point is that to make the comparison equal, you have to purchase either laptop to give equal out of box experiance, since UBUNTU has OO preinstalled, you have to purchase Office to get the same experiance, add to that that I selected one of the cheaper Office packages, and OO will actually have more than the base Office

eentonig
June 3rd, 2007, 08:06 PM
Actually,I'm not surprised they are equally priced. you have to calculate the cost for Dell to prepare and support either machine as well.

And I'm pretty sure that those Ubuntu boxes are a mot more expensive to them, then the Vista ones. I'm sure they'll get a whole lot more calls to their helpdesk from people who bought ubuntu machines.

To be honest. I think they'll even make more money on the Vista machines, due to mass discounts, bundling deals, etc...

dorsett
June 3rd, 2007, 11:54 PM
My point is that to make the comparison equal, you have to purchase either laptop to give equal out of box experiance, since UBUNTU has OO preinstalled, you have to purchase Office to get the same experiance, add to that that I selected one of the cheaper Office packages, and OO will actually have more than the base Office

:)
If we are going to get picky about out of the box experiences, we might want to factor in all the trouble of dealing with the barage of preinstalled crap and trial programs cluttering up a new vista PC.

Sorry.. I just couldn't help myself

mmikee66
June 4th, 2007, 01:56 AM
The price is the same for the same hardware.

Saying the savings is in the pre-installed OO vs. pre-installed MS Office is just looking for anything to make you feel good about the deal. Come on, who in this forum will be intimidated by the task of installing OO on Vista?

The price initially was $100 less when doing this identical hardware check, now they bumped the price to make them even.

DELL is selling the ubuntu laptop because its a USP(unique selling proposition), it is offering something that the competitors are not. The linux laptop is about increasing market share and profits not about linux. Welcome to the real world.

dorsett
June 4th, 2007, 03:32 AM
Looks like I messed up. The same price will get you

256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 7300 TurboCache™ for the ubuntu
and
256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1400 HyperMemory™ for the Vista machine.

Maybe I was hallucinating last night. My apologies.

handy
June 4th, 2007, 03:34 AM
Not true!!!

System7 and a few other companies were selling linux computers years before Dell came on board.

These folks were the pioneers, willing to take the risks.

Now a mega-corporation, not much different from M$, sees gold in them-thar-hills, and far too many folks jump on the bandwagon with a narrow perspective.

Buy locally, and when you can't, buy from the small guys who were at the forefront of open-source.

Not from the wannabe monopolists like Michael Dell who smell the money and want to take over.

My $.05 worth....

:D :D :D

-merlin

I agree totally, support the little fish where ever & when ever you can.

Or before we know it, they won't exist anymore.

The big fish swallow our individual freedom's somewhat imho.

Feba
June 4th, 2007, 04:30 AM
Hell no. The second Dell said "For enthusiasts or advanced users" or whatever bullcrap they were spouting, they closed our market off from anyone who didn't already use linux. If I want to buy a laptop with linux on it from the default, i'll stick with s76.

jgcamp99
June 4th, 2007, 06:00 AM
Who thinks that Dell did the right thing with Ubuntu and the prices? I think there should be a bigger price difference between a ubuntu machine and vista machine.

I'd rather see Dell drop pricing on Vista systems, throw in a dvd of Ubuntu with every system and leave it up to the consumer to put Ubuntu on it. I'd rather Dell develop a driver package that works across the board for their products (this is directed more towards notebooks). Printers, those are drivers each manufacturer needs to provide support for. Dell can require better support, then again, don't they just sell HP, Canon or whatever printer with their hardware aleady ?

Dell has done the right thing, but let's say a Windows user doesn't like Linux and wants it after getting the Ubuntu system ? The returns or whatever program is used to get Vista in the hands of those boomerang returns to Microsoft will show dis-satisfaction w/ Linux.

At any rate, an easier dual boot dvd/cdrom than the live cdrom for Dell customers is needed.

zero244
June 4th, 2007, 06:23 AM
Dell is just trying to sell computers. They see that Vista is not being well received and if they can sell a few extra machines by giving people a version of Linux pre-installed they will try it. It appears the agreement with MS to supply only commercial customers with XP does not give Dell many options on the OS.
If people buy computers with Linux it could start a trend.......if they dont sell.........then Dell will drop the choice of having Linux pre-installed.
Its all about money...........plus I think Mikey kind of likes Ubuntu.
I hope Linux sells, its good for everyone if it does.

MentholLite
June 4th, 2007, 08:03 AM
Looks like I messed up. The same price will get you

256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 7300 TurboCache™ for the ubuntu
and
256MB ATI MOBILITY™ RADEON® X1400 HyperMemory™ for the Vista machine.

Maybe I was hallucinating last night. My apologies.

I am now confused... so is it much cheaper to get a DELL machine with Ubuntu rather than Vista!?

MentholLite
June 4th, 2007, 08:08 AM
Apparently, I don't think VISTA sell well with those new machines.
In fact, alot of ppl are asking for XP instead.

I will said DELL did the right move in offering alternative.
But like any other businesses, its all about making $$$.

Just my 2cents.

mifi
June 4th, 2007, 08:20 AM
If Dell wanted to do the right things, for Linux and themselves. they would sell their machines in Europe. There is a good Linux market there.

I called the Dutch sales rep's last week to ask them about this very thing. They told me Dell's with Ubuntu will be on in the Netherlands, starting in Juli 2007.

They also told me it is also possible in the Netherlands to buy a Dell without OS, but only if you order it by phone. I have noticed that a Dell without OS can be ordered from the Internet in France and Germany.

mifi

mifi
June 4th, 2007, 08:24 AM
I also think that it is a tiny step for gaming companies to realize that there really is a an audience of Linux users and more people to market their games towards. Meaning that Open-GL (or another open source platform) might start giving Direct X 10 some serious competition.

Pardon me. Not just the gaming companies should realize there is an audience. Same is true for hardware manufacturers (drivers!), Adobe etc..

mifi

mmikee66
June 4th, 2007, 11:33 AM
yes,I also had the different graphics cards but they are very comparable an valued within a few dollars of each other.

The thing we are not looking at is DELL pays almost nothing for the OEM version of MS Vista in the quantity they purchase and most of that will be recovered by the trial crap-ware bundled with the product or sales of anti-virus / anti-spyware / ... plus MS Office / other software

DELL could very well be making more off the bundled crapware and additional software than the cost of Vista.

I think DELL is getting a lot of people to look at its products( linux and MS), good press by offering a new product and even a support forum here at ubuntuforums. They are in our face and we are discussing the value and quality of all of their products. Selling Linux loaded computers is generating a much larger footprint in the perspective buyers mind for all DELL products.

DELL should be seeing increased sales in all of its models. We have been "marketed"


I am now confused... so is it much cheaper to get a DELL machine with Ubuntu rather than Vista!?

As is the Linux machine cheaper? well you can look at it in many ways and get any answer you want. If you are measuring the hardware only then they are the same price, when you start looking for "user experience" then it gets fuzzy, with linux you need less memory(makes cost less), you get OO preinstalled(increased function), ...
If you feel you are paying less is based upon how you perceive the marketing spin form DELL

bedlam
June 4th, 2007, 12:06 PM
I think it's a step in the right direction. More big names will inevitably follow and so we (Linux users) will all benefit from greater support for applications and hardware. Microsoft has every right to be worried by this move, so much so they are pushing a scheme called MVPs, (Most Valuable Professionals) to receive this accolade, you need to prove yourself by helping others. Something the Linux user does automatically, so we are already MVPs.
However back to the question. I've just just bought a laptop from Novatech with specs, Core duo 1.73, 15.4 screen, 2048mb pc4200 ram, 120 sata hard drive, multi burner, firewire, Intel graphics,4in1 card reader, modem, wireless LAN all for £445 inc VAT, with NO operating system, Installed Ubuntu 7.04 without a hitch, this is by far the best OS so far. Dell can't beat that, so for me this is the route to take
As a final point, every laptop that I have looked at underneath, whatever the brand name says “Made in China”

stchman
June 4th, 2007, 09:36 PM
I configured two Dell inspiron 1505 notebooks with the exact same equipment, but one had Vista Home Basic and one had ubuntu, they came out to be the exact same price. Dell is ripping ubuntu users off. Why not just buy the Vista machine, install Ubuntu and ebay your legal copy of Vista. The fact that you can not switch between ubuntu and vista in their customization options (You have to start with either a Ubuntu or Vista machine) should tip people off that something is fishy. What would we be paying the extra $100 for that Dell is saving by not giving you a Vista copy?

Another sneaky thing is that the Ubuntu machine starts at $599, while the Vista machine starts at $699, making you think you are saving a $100, but when you try to make them equivalent like I have shown below, they become the same price. Scandalous.

Dell Inspiron 1505

$699 Vista (if I chose Intel Pro Wireless(only ubunut option) becomes $728)

1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm [Included in Price]
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 7300 TurboCache™ [Included in Price]

Dell Wireless 1390b/g (54Mbps) [Included in Price]
Intel PRO/Wireless 3945a/g [add $29 or $1/month1]

$599 Ubuntu (upgrading to equivalent RAM & Video becomes $728)

512MB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 DIMM [Included in Price]
1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm [add $50 or $2/month1]

Intel® Graphics Media Accelerator 950 [Included in Price]
256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® Go 7300 TurboCache™ [add $79 or $2/month1]

Intel PRO/Wireless 3945a/g [Included in Price]

I have said this from the beginning. Buy the same exact laptop with Vista on it. Go download the .iso from Ubuntu and install Feisty yourself. Better yet you can dual boot and have Vista for gaming and Feisty for everything else.

Since it is the same hardware, you know that Feisty will work.

I still think $728 for a 15.4 laptop is too pricey. I have seen laptops at CC and BB with BETTER equipment for less. I mean $728 and no DVD burner!!!!!! My laptop does not have a DVD burner as well, but I paid $350 for it.

I girlfriend bought a laptop a couple of weeks ago and the brick and mortar stores were way cheaper for laptops than the online way.

my_key
June 6th, 2007, 10:49 AM
Haha! Dell is offering us linux computers and what do we do? Complain about the price. This is priceless... :D

Look: to start up an new product line is sometimes quite costly. Prices will drop over time. Thats the way it works. (By the way: the issue seems to have already been resolved - or never occurred? - as some previous posts pointed out and i have experienced by trying just recently.)

Just buy the Ubuntu pc. This makes them show their is a market for linux pc's. If everybody buys the vista crap, Dell will have an excuse to drop the product line, "because there is no market for it".

Second of all: free software never was about price, it always has been about freedom. How much is that worth to you? We should support the vendors that are selling/supporting free software, so that our beloved free system gets more widely adopted. Maybe one day we will be able to walk up to just about any computer and use our favourite software. We are already starting to see free systems in schools, courts, ... (at least here in Belgium). And I believe that part of that success is because large companies like HP, Sun, Intel, Dell, and the like are openly expressing their support for gnu/linux as a powerful, stable and secure operating system.

I'm putting my money were my interests are: my freedom. And that means most likely my next system will be a dell.

peace,

Michael

stchman
June 6th, 2007, 06:57 PM
Haha! Dell is offering us linux computers and what do we do? Complain about the price. This is priceless... :D

Look: to start up an new product line is sometimes quite costly. Prices will drop over time. Thats the way it works. (By the way: the issue seems to have already been resolved - or never occurred? - as some previous posts pointed out and i have experienced by trying just recently.)

Just buy the Ubuntu pc. This makes them show their is a market for linux pc's. If everybody buys the vista crap, Dell will have an excuse to drop the product line, "because there is no market for it".

Second of all: free software never was about price, it always has been about freedom. How much is that worth to you? We should support the vendors that are selling/supporting free software, so that our beloved free system gets more widely adopted. Maybe one day we will be able to walk up to just about any computer and use our favourite software. We are already starting to see free systems in schools, courts, ... (at least here in Belgium). And I believe that part of that success is because large companies like HP, Sun, Intel, Dell, and the like are openly expressing their support for gnu/linux as a powerful, stable and secure operating system.

I'm putting my money were my interests are: my freedom. And that means most likely my next system will be a dell.

peace,

Michael

My thing is that Linux users don't need Linux pre-installed. I would like to see all the major PC manufacturers make "Linux ready" laptops and desktops. Have them just choose hardware that is ready to go. This will force the HW makers to support Linux. Us geeks will install the OS. To me installing and getting the OS up and running was half the fun.

borahshadow
June 6th, 2007, 07:13 PM
I would not mind just a no OS option from some of the big company's
I would like Linux ready hardware though (hardware that has been tested to need no tweaking to get it to run)

stchman
June 6th, 2007, 11:27 PM
I would not mind just a no OS option from some of the big company's
I would like Linux ready hardware though (hardware that has been tested to need no tweaking to get it to run)

I have tried that, but they tell you "we need to install an OS to see if it is working". What a crock. There are many places that sell bare bones PCs with no OS and they work.

Mets
June 7th, 2007, 02:27 AM
Wow that's surprsing, I agree buy the Vista and install Ubuntu later. I don't really think Ubuntu is ready for the volume that Dell could bring anyway, to be honest. There's a lot of people who don't get help as it is, and that's without the increase in users.

joe dude
June 7th, 2007, 04:25 AM
The equivalent Dimension (E520N) with Core 2 duo E6320, 1gb ram, NVIDIA card costs $150 more with windows (no monitor).

~$500 for Ubuntu
~$650 for Vista

Maybe only a notebook issue??

joe dude
June 7th, 2007, 04:28 AM
Oh yeah,

To get a Core 2 Duo desktop at HP costs ~$800

Seems to me, Dell is providing quite a value with the Ubuntu desktops

Which is why I bought one (and am very pleased with it)

stchman
June 7th, 2007, 06:52 PM
Wow that's surprsing, I agree buy the Vista and install Ubuntu later. I don't really think Ubuntu is ready for the volume that Dell could bring anyway, to be honest. There's a lot of people who don't get help as it is, and that's without the increase in users.

I have given that some thought. I can agree with a poster earlier that if someone buys a Vista laptop that is one in the Vista column. If one buys an Ubuntu laptop then that is a check mark in the Ubuntu column. I gather that PC makers make a lot of money on trial software installation as well.

Dell will keep selling these laptops as long as there is a market. What someone could do is call Dell, order a Vista laptop and tell the CS person that the reason that they bought a laptop from Dell is that they support Linux. Tell the CS person they intend to dual boot their machine as well. THen after that that is done write an email to Dell stating the same thing.

If Dell gets enough of these responses then Dell will keep the Ubuntu support going.

bulforce
June 16th, 2007, 07:57 PM
Hello everybody,
I was just wondering is a purchase of dell laptop with preinstalled ubuntu os is a good deal at all....

My concern is that basically this purchase is bad for me... why?!? because of the price... e1505 with upgrades is about $1300 after instant discounts... okay but this price is almost the same no mather is the laptop have vista os or ubuntu os....

Isnt it better if i buy laptop with vista liscense and then just install ubuntu witch is free... also i can make a dualboot with ubuntu and vista and this will cost me nothing. But in case if buy ubuntu dell i'm gona have to buy vista too, in case i need windows for some applications.

Bottom line(atleast for me)

Dell Ubuntu OS - Make dual boot ($1300 + $160 vista home premium license ) = $1460
Dell Vista OS - Make dual boot ($1300 + $0 Ubuntu os) = $1300

What do you think?

RussianVodka
June 16th, 2007, 08:19 PM
You don't need Vista. And if you're smart, you dont' want it either.

Me personally, I have a copy of XP that I bought for $7 at my Uni. So I will consider installing that once I get my laptop.

Aside from that, paying for Vista, even if it's sold at a discount is a waste of money.

zoroko
June 16th, 2007, 09:21 PM
I'm typing this on my brand new 1505n that I received just two day ago..

It's worth it. I got all the top options, thanks to a $500 off coupon I found online. go look, there might be some still out there.

I have a windows xp disk, and I didnt, and dont want anything to do with vista. I barely ever use xp anymore and when i do its for small things. But now with the power of this new laptop I'm going to just use wine, or even vmware where wine fails.

I'm very happy with this laptop and even more happy I didnt spend money on something I didnt need or want....e.g. vista.

whizbaby
June 16th, 2007, 10:48 PM
Wine and VMware (barely needed though, but really nice for some jobs) good. For stuff in need of directX run cedega. And dont come and say you NEED msoffice (unless your job forces you to).

But to reply to the thread theme, maybe dell has some drivers that are not in the standard or even multiverse ubuntu software repository. That means that it could be a tougher job to get ubuntu on it (not for dell they have an installer). Sure you could download the dell drivers, but you will have to have a running system to integrate them. I say that because I had to install ubuntu to a bunch of dell machines and had/still have some problems with them, driver related. If you like a desktop to come up (instead of probably nothing) the preinstalled ubuntu appears more attractive. If you are a linux beginner I would even recommend to get that, otherwise you might go through a long hard fight and end up on vista ...

bulforce
June 17th, 2007, 02:42 AM
Thanks to everybody for the replies... but except the last one, all of them were answers of some other thread of somebody else that asked another question... ?!?

Let me make the question simple for you guys....

IF in a windows based laptop dell are charging you (hidden license fee) around $150 and the laptop is sold out for average $1300.... Then why they still sell Ubuntu based laptop for the same price ??? Isn't Ubuntu free ?!?

I am asking about deal.... NOT about technical side of self installing ubuntu witch is basically even more easy that installing windows. Also the question is not related to do u like vista or not, please keep your personal choice... hm personal!! No mater how much all of you will talk against M$... you ALL of you still use it in some or another form or occasion AS well as some other 90% of the pc users. Sorry for the long sidetalk.

RussianVodka
June 17th, 2007, 03:07 AM
Thanks to everybody for the replies... but except the last one, all of them were answers of some other thread of somebody else that asked another question... ?!?

Let me make the question simple for you guys....

IF in a windows based laptop dell are charging you (hidden license fee) around $150 and the laptop is sold out for average $1300.... Then why they still sell Ubuntu based laptop for the same price ??? Isn't Ubuntu free ?!?

I am asking about deal.... NOT about technical side of self installing ubuntu witch is basically even more easy that installing windows. Also the question is not related to do u like vista or not, please keep your personal choice... hm personal!! No mater how much all of you will talk against M$... you ALL of you still use it in some or another form or occasion AS well as some other 90% of the pc users. Sorry for the long sidetalk.

A similar laptop with Ubuntu on it costs $50 less than one with Vista on it. Customize yourself if you don't believe me.

dewong numba
June 17th, 2007, 03:20 AM
.... NOT about technical side of self installing ubuntu witch is basically even more ....

this is spelled which

the word witch describes an old woman that casts spells, like the witch at halloween

I think that the PC that anyone buys should have the OS that one wants on it. I use Ubuntu and bought a System76 laptop this year, and I WILL buy a Dell lappie at the end of the year with Ubuntu preinstalled.

I like using laptops and sometimes the set up on a laptop with hardware and peripherals can be a pain. Buying Ubuntu preinstalled is a time saver for me and i find it pleasant to actually use my PC rather than search for days or weeks trying to get everything running.

The Dell deal is a good deal if you are an actual Ubuntu user. Trying to justify buying Vista, you just need to go to Vista and let that be it. Most of us here choose not to be tied down by Windows and making the argument that Vista should be part of the deal will rub many people wrong.

jaybuntu
June 17th, 2007, 04:03 AM
I've been using Ubuntu for a few months now first on an older IBM T30 notebook with 512MB RAM. I was impressed that the performance of that machine was equivalent or better than my Dell Optiplex 720 with 2GB RAM and a dual core processor. As fate would have it, the screen on my T30 went bad in the middle of May so I decided I liked the Idea of a new Dell notebook with Ubuntu preinstalled. I got a great machine with some nice upgrades for under $800 (with a $300 off coupon code I found online) and was REALLY impressed with the performance and ease of use.

There were always a few quirky things with advanced graphics and hibernation on the T30 but these are completely gone on the E1505N. The media controls and everything else "just works" the way it should. And my 5 month old Dell Optiplex running Windows can't even hold a candle to this machine performance wise. As an added plus, nearly every time I needed to do something the software was already installed.

You can buy a machine with Vista and dual boot with Ubuntu if you want, but I doubt it will be quite as seamless. On top of that, most of the people I know that tried Vista have gone back to WIndows XP. Take the plunge - get Ubuntu preinstalled. You won't be sorry.

RJQ
June 17th, 2007, 06:00 AM
Hey Bulforce, I got you point quite clear and I think the same, the is no reason (knowing that the hardware is not equally offered in Ubuntu than in Microsoft) to pay the same for both of the OSs, especially when you can have both for the same price as you stated, and although Dell have become attractive this days because Ubuntu the reality is that may be you can find a better deal under another brand and better if you can customize it. If you have run Ubuntu already then you know quite perfectly what is needed to make it run in a new box, good look, cheers!

kevinlyfellow
June 17th, 2007, 06:13 AM
It's a good idea to pay the extra $50 or so to get vista if you want to use it. Otherwise, its not a good idea. It would be like paying extra for cruise control in a car. Yeah, its great for some people, but for others, it pretty useless. I personally don't use windows, so why should I care if it has Vista on it?

giosetti
June 17th, 2007, 05:46 PM
I ordered a 640m, so that doesn't come with pre-installed Ubuntu but with Vista.

However installing Ubuntu on this 640m was incredibly easy, EVERYTHING worked out of the box. Typical notebook issues, like suspend to RAM & disk, worked flawlessly from the first minute on.

Vista on the other hand is outrageous. I don't mind windows, but here a list off the top of my head of the flaws I have encountered with an OS that I HAVE PAID FOR:

- USB memory sticks cause freezes
- after suspend to disk: display resolution distorted, unstable system
- very long booting period .

So I will remove Vista and install XP (a volume license of the university).

Trixsey
June 17th, 2007, 06:05 PM
Yeah but the question is why is Vista only 50$ more? Usually Vista is like 500$ or more, and Ubuntu is 0$. Shouldn't one be able to expect a price cut relative to the decreased cost?

steveneddy
June 17th, 2007, 06:33 PM
Yeah but the question is why is Vista only 50$ more? Usually Vista is like 500$ or more, and Ubuntu is 0$. Shouldn't one be able to expect a price cut relative to the decreased cost?

A full version of Vista with packaging and license is $500, but if you have a lot of licenses, then you are installing from an image, so all you really have to charge for is the license, so that is where the difference is.

I believe they give the manufacturer a disc image, or they make their own after testing and driver installation and then load it onto the HD at the factory. They don't crack open a new Vista box for every install, they just copy the HD image to a new machine, ghosting I believe it is called.

This is how network admins install OS's and programs system wide with 100's of PC's. It would take eons to install Windows on 200 PCs one at a time when they can set up an image install which takes only minutes for however many PCs you have to work with.

This I believe is the difference in price. the hardware is still expensive.

Dell buys one CD or image and 100's if licenses, they install the image and sell the license, which is cheaper than a full on packaged CD.

Trixsey
June 17th, 2007, 07:04 PM
Yeah I know, I used to work with repairing/ghosting a while ago :)

Somehow though I got the impression the paper box and the CD weren't worth more than a few dollars though, and that the license itself was what made up for 99% of the cost.

bulforce
June 17th, 2007, 08:17 PM
What about GNU/GPL ???

WHY dell is selling something that is free ???

Oh and if you want support u have to pay extra...

Reugen
June 17th, 2007, 08:37 PM
They're not selling ubuntu, liken steveneddy said they get a big discount on vista licenses(hence teh minimal price difference), and canonical is selling support, which ins't charging for the software itself if you know what i mean. Personally i would just buy the ubuntu laptop,buy a copy of Xp and install that(not me personally, just someone who needs windows). Just my personal opinion though

HotShotDJ
June 18th, 2007, 01:43 AM
OEM (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070130-8730.html) versions of Windows Vista are much cheaper than purchasing the retail box. On top of that, large OEM's such as Dell get a substantial discount from Microsoft, such that the $50 price difference between Ubuntu and Vista machines is probably about right. Keep in mind also that Windows machines come with all kinds of subsidized trialware (aka crapware) that companies like AOL, Earthlink and McAfee pay Dell to install. So, on an Ubuntu machine, that subsidization is lost.

Therefore, the idea that a Dell machine with Ubuntu should cost DELL_WITH_WINDOWS - WINDOWS_RETAIL_BOX = DELL_WITH_UBUNTU is false reasoning.

whistle
June 18th, 2007, 02:41 AM
I customized two E1505's, one with Ubuntu and one with Home Basic. The Ubuntu came out to be around 1320 before my $500 coupon and the Vista was around 1420 before the coupon. However, the coupon only applies to 1399+, so I got a dock and both were the same price.

There were two differences. The VIsta came with the X1400 and the Ubuntu came with the Go 7300, but I wanted the 7300 anyways b/c of better Linux compatability, and the only game I play is a six year old OpenGL based one. The Ubuntu had 512 MB of memory, while the Vista had 1 GB (2 dimms) - but I got two gigs off newegg, so the less memory that came with it, the better.

If you end up really missing Vista or XP in a few months, you can always get an OEM off newegg or ebay for 80 bucks... and if you're upgrading your memory yourself like me, that still saves you twenty bucks.

So I'd say the N is a better deal, and that's what I ended up buying... it's supposed to come in tomorrow or Tuesday :D yay!

joe.turion64x2
July 1st, 2007, 02:57 AM
I have given that some thought. I can agree with a poster earlier that if someone buys a Vista laptop that is one in the Vista column. If one buys an Ubuntu laptop then that is a check mark in the Ubuntu column. I gather that PC makers make a lot of money on trial software installation as well.

Dell will keep selling these laptops as long as there is a market. What someone could do is call Dell, order a Vista laptop and tell the CS person that the reason that they bought a laptop from Dell is that they support Linux. Tell the CS person they intend to dual boot their machine as well. THen after that that is done write an email to Dell stating the same thing.

If Dell gets enough of these responses then Dell will keep the Ubuntu support going.
I think this is the way to go. As long as Dell has the option of Linux there is a change the hardware will work, otherwise they could put a lot of Windows-only hardware. This could account for the prices being similar.

Yesterday a cousin bought an Acer laptop supposedly with Linpus Linux preinstalled. However upon opening it there was an illegitimate Windows XP on it (I suppose from factory because it was well sealed). Anyway I formated the drive and put Fedora 7 on it. That was the easiest installation I had to do, no further drivers were needed and Beryl worked like a charm!

Although it did not have the Linux installed, the fact that it was 'designed for Linux' meant that it could be easily installed.

heathcliffs34
July 1st, 2007, 10:51 PM
I am planning to buy a Dell laptop and want to run Ubuntu on it. Assuming there is no price difference, is there any reason to not buy a Dell with Windows installed on it and then add the free Ubuntu myself? That way I would a copy of Windows as a backup in case I change my mind. Am I missing anything?

neptho
July 1st, 2007, 10:54 PM
You won't have Ubuntu preinstalled with all hardware support, and you'll have to configure the devices yourself; otherwise, there's few reasons other than not obtaining Windows, unless you've absolved yourself of ever running it. ;)

Bodizzle
July 1st, 2007, 11:00 PM
I don't think you are missing anything. Out of curiosity I put together two identical laptops and two identical desktops from Dells website, one with Ubuntu and one with Windows, and there was a minimal price difference of about $100-$150. It cost more than that to buy a new retail version of Windows XP or Vista.

If I were buying a new laptop, I would do what you suggested and get one that included Windows then add Ubuntu and dual boot since you can get Ubuntu for free.

The only reason anyone would want to just get Ubuntu is that they are totally anti-Windows and refuse to put it on their machine.

heathcliffs34
July 2nd, 2007, 07:47 AM
Thanks for your thoughts. Do you think installing Ubuntu over Windows on a laptop would void an extended warranty?

neptho
July 2nd, 2007, 08:09 AM
Thanks for your thoughts. Do you think installing Ubuntu over Windows on a laptop would void an extended warranty?

Yes, and no. If you tell them you've installed Ubuntu on it, they'll tell you it's not supported, and all but demand that you reinstall Windows (if only to run further diagnostics) before they will assist you.

However, if it's an obvious 'won't turn on' sort of failure, they won't make you jump through these hoops.

cprofitt
July 2nd, 2007, 02:18 PM
I am planning to buy a Dell laptop and want to run Ubuntu on it. Assuming there is no price difference, is there any reason to not buy a Dell with Windows installed on it and then add the free Ubuntu myself? That way I would a copy of Windows as a backup in case I change my mind. Am I missing anything?

When I did the pricing the windows machine actually came in cheaper for the same hardware... so going with the windows machine and manually building it makes more sense for you... but then Dell will not know you are running Ubuntu.

cprofitt
July 2nd, 2007, 02:19 PM
Thanks for your thoughts. Do you think installing Ubuntu over Windows on a laptop would void an extended warranty?

It should not do that -- and most of their diagnostic tools can be run from a bootable CD or floppy...

Though Dell has some of the worst desktop support I have ever dealt with.

HotShotDJ
July 2nd, 2007, 06:57 PM
The only reason anyone would want to just get Ubuntu is that they are totally anti-Windows and refuse to put it on their machine.Right. And the reason I purchased a Ford was because I'm anti-Chrysler. I don't use Windows for anything. I don't WANT Windows. I'm not anti-Windows, I AM pro open source and use Linux exclusively. THAT is why I prefer to purchase a system with only Ubuntu.

planetes42
July 4th, 2007, 03:24 AM
If you are buying a laptop with "MediaDirect", be careful before you format stuff. Dell puts on a drive to boot to the "media" stuff and if you take away that partition, it's near impossible to get it back. All you lose is the ability to push a button and use your computer as an instant dvd/music player, but it would have been nice (well, maybe -- i don't know, I lost mine right away and never got it back)

whizbaby
July 4th, 2007, 10:34 AM
The only reason anyone would want to just get Ubuntu is that they are totally anti-Windows and refuse to put it on their machine.
Yeh, thats the one thing. The other thing is, that the more people not ordering windows the bigger the pile of unneeded windoze CDs at Dells :)
By taking windoze, you support it.

sj3fk3
July 4th, 2007, 02:39 PM
By taking windoze, you support it.

I totally agree, there's only one way to make em understand that Ubuntu is a much better alternative. Hopefully it stays that way though... RedHat used to be kinda good as well (years ago), when package management was still a novelty.

On the other hand there always some programs you can only get on M$ OS'es like some games and viruses, so a dual boot setup is the way to go. I would pay 50 bucks extra to get the Windows license afterwards.

vexorian
July 4th, 2007, 02:45 PM
It is not free windows, you are paying for it, you know.

whizbaby
July 4th, 2007, 02:57 PM
On the other hand there always some programs you can only get on M$ OS'es like some games and viruses, so a dual boot setup is the way to go. I would pay 50 bucks extra to get the Windows license afterwards.
So you only need it for games and viruses...shure that there are so much games for vista already? I only know about the viruses, lol! I switched away from windozer completely, as a mathemusician I dont miss anything (especially not reinstalling all three month puts down stress level). Games I played in dozer (e.g. unreal, warcraft) can all be run in ubuntu, so the only thing I dont have is viruses :tongue:
btw theres a lot of free games that rock real hard...

moredhel
July 4th, 2007, 03:58 PM
If you don't need the windows, then don't get it. By getting the ubuntu one you are increasing it's sales which is increasing the likelyhood of them keeping on doing the ubuntu thing :)

t2000kw
July 4th, 2007, 04:38 PM
Though Dell has some of the worst desktop support I have ever dealt with.

I've heard that from some people.

If your company has a corporate purchase plan offered through Dell, you get the advantage of better support (I had great support, anyway) and probably a better price. You're also more likely to get someone that you can understand on the phone. Their support for corporate purchases is handled differently/separately than with regular consumer purchases.

Do check prices on both the consumer and corporate purchases sections of their site as they may have a promotional offer on the consumer side that makes it a better buy for you, like maybe free extra RAM or a free printer.

cody50
July 4th, 2007, 04:39 PM
I bought the preloaded ubuntu so I would have guaranteed hardware support. I wanted it to just work (and it did).

xlinuks
July 4th, 2007, 06:07 PM
There are actually many reasons not buying windows.
-I have the cracked versions of any later windows, including vista, nevertheless, comparing all the pros and contra the clear winner is Ubuntu (first off because It lets me use multiple desktops, lets me mark random windows as "always on top").
-The EULA. Especially the Vista EULA.
-A lot of other good and bad things that when summed up show that Ubuntu lets me spare time and nerves (for instance lack of viruses).
-I'm a Java developer but I'm willing to learn C/C++ and I LOVE the idea that those skills will let me contribute to the GNU/Linux/Ubuntu community. Linux treats me fine now by being free and open to me, I will pay off with my skills and knowledge as soon as I can. That is fair.

whizbaby
July 4th, 2007, 06:44 PM
Though Dell has some of the worst desktop support I have ever dealt with.
Yeah, german support seems to be made in India (it took me several minutes to realise that the person at the other end of the line was talking german actually:-k), so I call England to get someone I can understand, lol.

dan828
July 5th, 2007, 11:29 PM
The only reason anyone would want to just get Ubuntu is that they are totally anti-Windows and refuse to put it on their machine.

I'd have to disagree with this. I just priced out a desktop with both Windows and Ubuntu, the same configuration was $119 cheaper with Ubuntu than with Windows. Now I have several licenses of Windows that I can use should I want to install windows (through MS action pack), so an extra copy just isn't necessary.

The only downside that I can see is that the choice of hardware isn't as good with Ubuntu, but I was able to put together a system that I liked except for the video card. A check of pricing shows that upgrading the video card myself would cost me about what Dell charges for the upgrade, so that isn't a biggy either.

The long and the short of it is that I save $119 if I go with Ubuntu over getting another copy of Windows that I don't need. :biggrin:

zero244
July 6th, 2007, 12:17 AM
I think the idea of buying a Dell with Ubuntu is to send a message to Dell that their is demand for Linux preinstalled.
The main reason MS is still the strongest OS contender is almost all new machines are loaded with Windows.
If all of a sudden Linux was preinstalled instead of Windows Linux would switch positions with MS.
Keep in mind MS is not just problematic with end users. They lord over demands to software developers as well.
Most likely most software companies would rather write software for Linux rather than deal with all the hassles of working with MS.
Software and game developers will gravitate to the platform that sells the most product. If that platform is Linux they will flood over to Linux.
I for one am done guying games because the new trend to force you to have a Internet connection just to install the game and in some cases you have to have a Internet connection to play it as well.
MS has been hassling customers for years now, and it will only get worse.
So unless you want a copy of Windows buy with Linux preinstalled otherwise Dell will drop preinstalling Linux.

vwbeamer
July 6th, 2007, 03:27 AM
I bought a dell about 1 year ago with XP, now I'm running Ubuntu.

Some thoughts-

Go to google and search Dell coupons, and also check out slickdeals.net You will save money. They have been running some killer deals on Ubuntu machines, some as low as 219.00 for dual core machines.

Dell changes there deals all the time! daily. Look on there EPP sight also. Search google for an EPP code.

If order a machine with windows, pay the 10 bucks for the OS system disk.

When you get it, and sure it works, Format the hard drive and re install windos. Partion the HD and install Ubuntu on a partion.

Even if decide to just run Windows, format the HD, it's LOADED with crap from AOL, Mafae, etc

Death_Sargent
July 6th, 2007, 03:53 AM
it makes more sense to do it the other way around. windows will probubly work zero config but linux sometimes needs manual tuning. Also i doubt you will be able to add ubuntu without having to reinstall windows anyway.

That being said you may wan't to first look into power management options before even considering windows as anything sub vista does not have decent built in power support

neptho
July 6th, 2007, 05:19 AM
That being said you may wan't to first look into power management options before even considering windows as anything sub vista does not have decent built in power support

I have to say that this is not true. Dell's (own proprietary) system for XP works just fine; you can have it set HD spindown, lower the video, change timeouts, etc - nearly exactly to the way you can with ACPI in Linux.

However, XP doesn't have to worry about a 'tight polling' kernel, so you might even get a bit more life out of it than you would standard with Linux (at least with few applications running, and until programs stop using a polling based system instead of an event based system. Kernel 2.6.21+ will help us whenever we get that standardized, but many of our favorite pieces of software are still going to be lingering on for a little bit before they're updated to take advantage of this).

Uber Schwarz
July 6th, 2007, 05:30 AM
How do you configure your hardware to run Ubuntu?

Kubunteando
July 9th, 2007, 08:28 PM
I read an article in www.tuxmachines.org called:

The More Dell Lies, the More Ubuntu Community Embraces Dell
http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/17941

And I did not believe it and decide to do my own tests sure that it was an exaggeration.

But there goes my supprise when I find:

Dell Inspiron 1420 with Windows:
819$

Dell Inspiron 1420N with Ubuntu:
1049$

Both with the same characteristics. I used 2GB of RAM since it was included in the price of the Windows version. And a 160GB disk.

And I thought Dell was serious about the Linux business...
What a disapointment! Dell thinks we are stupids???

I think still the best strategy is to buy a Windows laptop. Do not accept the Windows license, and ask Dell for the money back of the unused Windows. Maybe then they will take it more seriously that people wants freedom of choice!

And anyway it is good to learn how to install the Operating System. Nowadays is really easy.

Wiebelhaus
July 9th, 2007, 08:30 PM
that's very interesting

NewJack
July 9th, 2007, 08:48 PM
I just checked Dell's site here is what I found.....

UBUNTU- An Inspiron 1420N with a 160GB HD, 2 GB of RAM and a CD/DVD Burner are an extra $315 in upgrades.

Where as:

WINDOWS- A machine with the same specs is $899 (The above upgrades for the Ubuntu notebook are included in this price).

WTF??????

Trust me, I understand that Dell is in business to make money but shouldn't the systems with the Free OS be CHEAPER????

WOW Dell is really screwing the pooch with this.

ageilers
July 9th, 2007, 08:49 PM
Here Here! I am not surprised. My comparison was $824 and $1049 respectively with color changes and wireless.

But, do you need 2GB to run Ubuntu? You need it for Vista to run well. Not the point though. Should be some consistency in pricing. Dell could really help themselves by addressing this better. How about Ubuntu compatible printer options? I don't see any real accessory options.

I will give them credit for making some effort to offer Ubuntu preloaded systems. Maybe those extras are down the pike.

davidjmayo
July 9th, 2007, 08:49 PM
I think still the best strategy is to buy a Windows laptop. Do not accept the Windows license, and ask Dell for the money back of the unused Windows. Maybe then they will take it more seriously that people wants freedom of choice!


This attracted my attention.
I didn't read the links you gave but I do remember someone in the UK doing this (I think I read it on the BBC website). not sure who the manufacturer was but a major player like Dell. He demanded and got a refund for not using windows (and they didn't even ask him to send the win CD back--it was probably OEM but it still costs something).

EDIT: sorry took some time but here's the BBC story http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6144782.stm
note the article is from november 2006 before Dell started to offer Ubuntu pre-installed (yes it was Dell but that is not really the point of the story)

Inxsible
July 9th, 2007, 08:58 PM
Dell started selling the Ubuntu machines so they would be ahead of all competitors in the Linux market. At the same time, I dont think they are naive enough to believe that their Ubuntu machines will make their MicroSoft OS business will go kaput.

They also, probably, know that most "converts", myself included, will go in for a dual boot rather than go cold turkey with Linux(Ubuntu). So they offer more incentives in the Microsoft OSes still. That way, they are the so called Linux supporters and at the same time encourage their business of the Microsoft OS as well.

I know, when the news first came out of Dell starting to sell Ubuntu machines, everyone was hailing Dell. There are of course caveats always to the hype !!

:)

Inxsible
July 9th, 2007, 09:00 PM
Here Here! I am not surprised. My comparison was $824 and $1049 respectively with color changes and wireless.

But, do you need 2GB to run Ubuntu? You need it for Vista to run well. Not the point though. Should be some consistency in pricing. Dell could really help themselves by addressing this better. How about Ubuntu compatible printer options? I don't see any real accessory options.

I will give them credit for making some effort to offer Ubuntu preloaded systems. Maybe those extras are down the pike.

You are right there my friend. After using, Vista for a whole 2 days, I am ruing the fact that I accepted the EULA License agreement. I could have gotten some money back from HP at least :(

Just starting up Vista takes about 800 Megs of RAM !!!

NewJack
July 9th, 2007, 09:03 PM
A system with the same specs but with a free OS included should be cheaper, bottom line!

The other way to look at it though is.... Maybe the windows machines aren't selling as much and they are offering the Win boxes for a little less.

Unless Michael Dell offers an explanation for this, we may never know.

CrankyFilipino
July 9th, 2007, 09:04 PM
Wow that's really nuts and messed up from Dell. I think this should really be spread and that the community should send Dell a message. Hopefully most Linux users, or new Linux users who might be purchasing from Dell pay attention and catch that. That's interesting that you can refuse the OS and get a refund. If my HP dv2000 didn't come absolutely free to me as a warranty replacement on my old crappy compaq presario 2000 I'd probably do that. Lucky me I got a freebie hehe.. still can't believe it.. The old computer was refurbished and a year old 2 lol.

Dragonbite
July 9th, 2007, 09:31 PM
The price differences should be very low, even if Ubuntu still costs more. Dell is in the business to make money. period. So they will price their products at whatever the market is willing to pay.

Yes, the OS is free, but the paychecks for the customer service whom had to be trained and the cost of the (little) marketing material created are not.

Anything that is "new" in the market is going to cost more so that the company can try and regain some of the initial cost of offering the new product, it's just the way business goes. But all-in-all, Dell should not be pushing THAT large of a difference between systems (they can afford to have a little of the profit they make from the Windows machine go towards Ubuntu/Linux marketing).

Hope there is some sort of error in either the calculation or the different components.

AlexenderReez
July 9th, 2007, 09:35 PM
so how about ubuntu management?i think they should know this.....will they take action?

Inxsible
July 9th, 2007, 09:37 PM
Dell probably thought that the Ubuntu buyers wont try and customize a machine on the Windows side and Windows buyers wont do it on the Ubuntu site.

Looks like they thought wrong !!!! ;)

DrMega
July 9th, 2007, 09:44 PM
Has anyone tried phoning for a price? Here in the UK, their website is well known for its crazy price quoting system. It is not unusual (in fact very common) to remove optional items and the price goes up instead of down. Your web based priced comparisons might just be exhibiting the same bug.

Here in the UK, they haven't started selling the machines with Ubuntu on yet, so I can't really do a comparison.

lbelloq
July 9th, 2007, 09:47 PM
You are right there my friend. After using, Vista for a whole 2 days, I am ruing the fact that I accepted the EULA License agreement. I could have gotten some money back from HP at least :(

Just starting up Vista takes about 800 Megs of RAM !!!

800 MB? Holy mother that's a LOT, 80% of my system's RAM.
Glad I still haven't installed Vista. My box is a DIY Sempron, so Vista is pretty much out of the question.

Shay Stephens
July 9th, 2007, 09:47 PM
I think the price difference is a result of Dell not being able to load all the crapware that they do on the windows machines that help subsidize a cheaper price. When it comes to things being artificially lower in price, you have to look for the subsidies. Take those out, and the real price shows up to the consumer.

If there is any cheating, it's the price Dell charges for a windows box. It is likely rife with corruption and graft. Don't support the sale of windows boxes.

Adamant1988
July 9th, 2007, 09:50 PM
I read an article in www.tuxmachines.org called:

The More Dell Lies, the More Ubuntu Community Embraces Dell
http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/17941

And I did not believe it and decide to do my own tests sure that it was an exaggeration.

But there goes my supprise when I find:

Dell Inspiron 1420 with Windows:
819$

Dell Inspiron 1420N with Ubuntu:
1049$

Both with the same characteristics. I used 2GB of RAM since it was included in the price of the Windows version. And a 160GB disk.

And I thought Dell was serious about the Linux business...
What a disapointment! Dell thinks we are stupids???

I think still the best strategy is to buy a Windows laptop. Do not accept the Windows license, and ask Dell for the money back of the unused Windows. Maybe then they will take it more seriously that people wants freedom of choice!

And anyway it is good to learn how to install the Operating System. Nowadays is really easy.

At this point I'm just loving this thread for the irony.

UnixAnt
July 9th, 2007, 09:51 PM
Here's a thought.

Dell have a legal obligation to provide a variety of different support levels to customers. Perhaps the price difference pays for Dell to hire 1st & 2nd Line support analysts with Linux troubleshooting skills. Its bad business to sell a product for which you have no in-house expertise to provide support to the punters.

Somebody has to foot the bill for this - might as well be the people who are buying and using Linux...

ltk5
July 9th, 2007, 09:51 PM
It's so sad. :( I'm really disappointed at Dell.

Inxsible
July 9th, 2007, 09:53 PM
I think the price difference is a result of Dell not being able to load all the crapware that they do on the windows machines that help subsidize a cheaper price. When it comes to things being artificially lower in price, you have to look for the subsidies. Take those out, and the real price shows up to the consumer.

If there is any cheating, it's the price Dell charges for a windows box. It is likely rife with corruption and graft. Don't support the sale of windows boxes.

I think you are right. All computer sellers do get a lot of subsidies to pre-install crapware like Toolbars and trial versions of a bunch of software like Norton or McAfee and stuff like that. This is done in the hope that the new buyer will actually buy the licenses on these software so every1 can make money.

Those kinds of subsidies are not available in the Linux world, since most all applications are freely available anyway and users can install them if they want.

fbformula
July 9th, 2007, 09:59 PM
I dont understand when i just compared them all the linux systems where cheaper.......
Maybe im missing something.

forrestcupp
July 9th, 2007, 10:00 PM
At this point I'm just loving this thread for the irony.

You're an a** sometimes, and I love it.

ageilers
July 9th, 2007, 10:16 PM
Prices for the base systems are lower, but when you go to customize to make the machines identical in RAM, color, hard drive size, and wireless card you are paying a signicicantly sizeable portion more for the Ubuntu laptop.

NewJack
July 9th, 2007, 10:25 PM
Dell probably thought that the Ubuntu buyers wont try and customize a machine on the Windows side and Windows buyers wont do it on the Ubuntu site.

Looks like they thought wrong !!!! ;)

'Buntu users FTW :)

brian j
July 9th, 2007, 10:26 PM
So!!!
Don't buy from DeL$.:lolflag:

bodhi.zazen
July 9th, 2007, 10:26 PM
As this is not a request for support -> Moved to cafe

Guus
July 9th, 2007, 10:48 PM
Prices for Windows are significantly higher when you try to match Ubuntu's free software to propietary software. Examples are Office 2007, Photoshop Elements virusscanner etc

in the end the Windows comp was 500 dollars more expenisve ;)

EDIT:

precie software needed

Microsoft® Office Small Business 2007 + outlook 207 + Publisher
Roxio Creator 9 Premier (CD/DVD burning)
Detto Intillimover (Data Migration)
Photoshop Elements (home use)

bread eyes
July 9th, 2007, 10:54 PM
I think it's because of support.

hardyn
July 9th, 2007, 11:35 PM
did dell ever claim that the ubuntu machines are cheaper?

sugarland2k
July 9th, 2007, 11:40 PM
Build you own PC. Dell uses cheap hardware inside anyway. Load Ubuntu. <Done>

Friends do not let friends run Vista!

Epilonsama
July 9th, 2007, 11:41 PM
did dell ever claim that the ubuntu machines are cheaper?

No I dont think so, they just say is free as in freedom.

Zzl1xndd
July 10th, 2007, 12:03 AM
Im getting results all over the place just did 2 530's (the N and S) and the Ubuntu machine came in at $70.00 cheaper for a Basic set up and 60 for the Higher end set up.

XPS low end $1010.00 Ubuntu & $999 Windows. Windows is 11 bucks cheaper in this case.
XPS High end 2180.00 Ubuntu & 2249.00 Windows. Ubuntu is cheaper by 69 bucks

Inspiron 1501 vs E1505n Low end Ubuntu 599, Windows 614. Ubuntu is 15 bucks cheaper

1501 vs 1505n High End Ubuntu 1193.00, Windows 1029.00 Windows Cheaper by 164 Bucks

1420 low end Ubuntu 1049, Windows 819. Windows cheaper by 230 bucks
1420 High end Ubuntu 1414, Windows 1184. Windows Cheaper by 230

Now as we can see Ubuntu is not cheaper on all models but what I did notice when going threw all the options was that Dell is offering Free upgrades on every machine that comes up as windows being cheaper in ever case where that was not an option Ubuntu is indeed cheaper. Also in the case of the 1501 vs 1505 the Cheaper windows box has a weaker CPU IMHO as I was comparing as best I could.

octopuskevin
July 10th, 2007, 12:14 AM
....umm maybe I am mistaken here, but I though that tech support for Ubuntu computers would be directly forwarded to Canonical...

While it is nice to see that Dell has begun to sell Ubuntu computers, It have seen several downsides to it...

1. price issues that people are talking about... inconsistancies in dell are not uncommon.. why is it that the price of a bluetooth adapter varies significantly depending on the computer you are customizing? why are there no 'standardized' prices for components? As such, why are Ubuntu computers more expensive then Windows? why are there no 'freebie upgrade' that are offered for Windows computers?

2. I am fairly certain that with the roll-out of Ubuntu computers, there will be greater emphesis on attempting to stop customers from getting windows refund requests.


My biggest peeve is that with Dell, and this probably goes with all OEM's out there, windows refund prices vary big time.. for example.. check out all the posts of people that DID get money back for their vista.. compare the prices of the guy from Germany to the guy from England.. how about the American?... strangely there are all different. When I started harrassing Dell several weeks ago, I was finally able to get a response from them.. they told me that in Canada I will only get $25 for a refund, regardless of the windows type... and that they would not offer a refund for 'extra's' such as systemworks...

SOoo What I see here is a bigger problem. OEM's like Dell are reluctant to tell customers exactly the value of a windows OEM, and are just as reluctant to offer these refunds.

However I have a better idea... Instead of arguing about why Dell does not offer Ubuntu computers in your nation, or that Linux users are getting screwed price wise... no, rather start sending nice happy cheerful emails out to inquire on how you can get your Vista refund: the Eula says so, and so does Dell's policies on sales.

Hence, while if we buy a lot of Ubuntu computers that nice and all, but it means that Linux users will still be restricted to a market dictated to us by these corporations. This is why I encourage everyone that is upset to do yourself, and the rest of the community a favour, and show these corporations that customer choices are required. That would have a far greater effect then just complaining on this forum.


Sorry if I'm ranting here, but I have been getting more and more angered by the fact that getting appropriate answers by Dell has been as hard as getting a pig to jump through hoops on fire.

- Kevin

x86asm
July 10th, 2007, 12:40 AM
You can see more about this topic from the source of the article here...

http://www.devside.net/blog/

Dell streams all of its profits on commodity hardware boxes from the Windows OS. Dell can never truly price a commodity Ubuntu box below the Windows version, minus whatever publicity Ubuntu generates for them via driving more traffic towards further Windows based system sales.

Take away Windows, any you take away whatever profit margin they have.

And even if they could price Ubuntu systems lower, Microsoft makes up such a large percentage of their net profit margin, that even a slight increase in the Windows license price, or a slight decrease in what Microsoft "contributes" to Dell in the form of marketing kickbacks, or a fluctuation in any number of other background deals we know nothing about, would set Dell in a downward spiral and eventually ruin the company...

Dell hardly makes anything on each dollar of revenue, and other OEMs like HP are doing much better.

You could probably go as far as saying that Dell is nothing but an extension of Microsoft.

This has all been one big scam to sell more Windows Licenses.

aysiu
July 10th, 2007, 12:49 AM
This is the same blogger who wrote about Ubuntu's "death rattle" a couple of months ago?

Seems to have a flair for the dramatic...

KiwiNZ
July 10th, 2007, 01:21 AM
People do you know Dells cost structure ?
Do you know the comparative cost structures of a machine with Windows pre installed?
and one with Ubuntu installed.?

I will speculate that you do not. Therefore this subject is speculative and baseless.

mdsmedia
July 10th, 2007, 01:34 AM
This is the same blogger who wrote about Ubuntu's "death rattle" a couple of months ago?

Seems to have a flair for the dramatic...I was thinking the same thing, aysiu, and Adamant referred (I think) to the same point earlier, in his irony post.

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 01:44 AM
I was thinking the same thing, aysiu, and Adamant referred (I think) to the same point earlier, in his irony post.

lrn2english plz k thx (and not just you)

maddog39
July 10th, 2007, 01:59 AM
I think the price difference is a result of Dell not being able to load all the crapware that they do on the windows machines that help subsidize a cheaper price. When it comes to things being artificially lower in price, you have to look for the subsidies. Take those out, and the real price shows up to the consumer.

If there is any cheating, it's the price Dell charges for a windows box. It is likely rife with corruption and graft. Don't support the sale of windows boxes.
Thats exactly right. I think that the big mis understanding here is that Dell gets paid big bucks to preload all of the crapware onto their windows computers. When you take a free operating system and put it on the same machine, the price is opt to go up as they arent making that extra money to sway expenses. Therefore causing price hikes. Its real easy logical thinking.

matthinckley
July 10th, 2007, 02:01 AM
I just priced out the 1420N ubuntu machine vs the 1420 windows machine and with the exact same specs except for the ram and hard drive as the windows version gets free upgrade from 1GB to 2GB of ram and from 80GB HDD to 160GB HDD..

Ubuntu 1420N = $774
Windows 1420 = $824

now if you equaled the ram and HDD the Ubuntu machine would cost more, but I can't expect Dell to offer the same incentives to purchase a linux machine since as was said in a post earlier they can't install all of the free trial software that they do on a windows machine.. and they do get money for installing those trials on their OEM machines..

also, this is just random babbling by me and I am not claiming that there is any truth to it but I wouldn't be suprised if Microsoft is giving dell some kind of incentive to lower the prices on the windows machines to make them lower than the ubuntu machines.

I mean if I was shopping purely by price it would make more sense to buy the windows machine since I do get more for the money, but this is what MS wants. If nobody buys the Ubuntu machines Dell will eventually stop offering them.

kamaboko
July 10th, 2007, 02:17 AM
I'm seem to recall posts from the past where people indicated they'd buy a Dell Ubuntu machine at any cost; anything to avoid MS. Buy up or Dell will pull the plug on it.

maniacmusician
July 10th, 2007, 02:46 AM
At this point I'm just loving this thread for the irony.
I don't get it?

You're making fun of him because he didn't speak perfect English? It didn't occur to you that it may not be his first language, or that he may just not have perfect English. That hardly says anything about his intelligence.

This is, however, a bit dissappointing. I was going to buy a Dell Ubuntu box, but I really don't have the extra cash to spend simply as a political statement. when customized, the windows version of the Inspiron 1420 (the only one of the Ubuntu laptops that has the santa-rosa chipset) came out to be significantly lower. If I had the money to spend, I may have done it, but unfortunately, I'll have to opt for the Windows version, which is a shame.

DoctorMO
July 10th, 2007, 03:36 AM
maniacmusician, if your going to buy a laptop you can still consider system76; maybe not the cheapest but I'd trust them more as a business than Dell.

mdsmedia
July 10th, 2007, 03:49 AM
lrn2english plz k thx (and not just you)I'm sorry??

smartboyathome
July 10th, 2007, 03:56 AM
He is trying to get a rise out of people ::)

stepan2
July 10th, 2007, 03:57 AM
Dell started selling the Ubuntu machines so they would be ahead of all competitors in the Linux market. At the same time, I dont think they are naive enough to believe that their Ubuntu machines will make their MicroSoft OS business will go kaput.

They also, probably, know that most "converts", myself included, will go in for a dual boot rather than go cold turkey with Linux(Ubuntu). So they offer more incentives in the Microsoft OSes still. That way, they are the so called Linux supporters and at the same time encourage their business of the Microsoft OS as well.

I know, when the news first came out of Dell starting to sell Ubuntu machines, everyone was hailing Dell. There are of course caveats always to the hype !!

:)

I ran vista and i have an intel core 2 duo with 2 gb of ram. After i installed a few programs and run some , 1gb of ram was taken . i didn't know wtf i was running that took that much ram. Even though it took 50 percent , it will still slow ..

kamaboko
July 10th, 2007, 04:02 AM
My Vista box has a AMD 64x2 4400 and 2GB RAM. In spite of sitting on about 600MB at idle, it's still fast as hell.

stepan2
July 10th, 2007, 04:03 AM
what have you installed on it? i installed firefox , flash 8 pro , photoshop and microsoft office . I wasnt running all of them when i saw the 1 gb of ram.. . This wasnt factory installed so it didnt have crap-ware. I am now happily dual booting kubuntu with ubuntu installed on it and my currently developing OS

mdsmedia
July 10th, 2007, 04:03 AM
He is trying to get a rise out of people ::)How can he get a rise out of me if I have no idea what he's talking about? LOL

vwbeamer
July 10th, 2007, 04:13 AM
LET me defend Dell

First off, i have personally seen some killer deals on Dell laptops and desktops with Ubuntu.

Like a desktop for $214. Laptops for 399? High end systems for $650 all with Ubuntu.

I've posted this before, but if you simply log on to Dell and order a computer, chances are you just got ripped off.

To get a deal on a dell you need to SHOP.

First off google "dell coupons" often dell will have coupon # that you enter for big $$ off.
Second look at slickdeals.net for deals.

Yes sometimes the window machines are cheaper, sometimes the Ubuntu machines are cheaper.

Fact is, the Vista machines are moving slow, so they discount them. Dell bought thousands of Licenses from MS and only way to get there money back is to sell Vista machines.

phrostbyte
July 10th, 2007, 04:21 AM
This is a load of crap, I just compared two Linux machines to the Windows and the Linux machines were $50-100 cheaper.

smartboyathome
July 10th, 2007, 04:23 AM
Those were probably plain jane machines then. the expensive ones are with all the upgrades (windows gets them FREE).

phrostbyte
July 10th, 2007, 04:27 AM
Those were probably plain jane machines then. the expensive ones are with all the upgrades (windows gets them FREE).

So what? Dell sends $350 off coupons on their Ubuntu machines if you spend $1299 or more.

phrostbyte
July 10th, 2007, 04:34 AM
And just as I predicted, you can not use the $350 off coupon on the Windows machine.

Windows machine "Special Offer" Free 2GB RAM and 160GB HDD
Ubuntu machine Coupon - $350 Off Purchase of $1299 or More
+ The Ubuntu machine is $50 cheaper = $400 cheaper then Windows machine

$400 for 2GB RAM and 160 HDD? Lol.

Hex_Mandos
July 10th, 2007, 04:39 AM
I'd buy the cheaper option. I don't care if Dell disguises its tactics by calling it "free upgrades", I'm glad I didn't wait for Dell to offer Ubuntu outside the US. My Olivetti laptop rocks.

maniacmusician
July 10th, 2007, 05:09 AM
maniacmusician, if your going to buy a laptop you can still consider system76; maybe not the cheapest but I'd trust them more as a business than Dell.
I've definitely considered it. In fact, I was set on buying a Darter for a while, but it really is simply too expensive. They're good if you're looking for an average laptop, but I'm looking for a slightly higher-end one that will last me a while.

laxmanb
July 10th, 2007, 05:22 AM
a. They're really not serious about Linux.

b. Why don't you just buy it with Windows preinstalled? You can install ubuntu when the computer is shipped to you.

macogw
July 10th, 2007, 05:25 AM
The 1505 laptop is no longer available for Windows, but when it was, it was $948 and Ubuntu was $799. The other laptop is cheaper with Windows, however. As for the desktops:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/macoafi/xps410.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/macoafi/winbuntu.png
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/macoafi/1420.png

putz3000
July 10th, 2007, 05:39 AM
Actually it is not surprising at all and probably does cost Dell more money. Here is why: MS throws kick back cash to company’s selling windows based machines. So does Intel which is why for so many years Dell had been locked into Intel only chips. Intel gave them money so long as they never sold an AMD system. This is also why their stock value took a big hit when they added AMD chips to their lineup. They lost money when they were already hurting. They also lost some pricing advantage from Intel.

One of the reasons the Linux community has never been able to purchase Linux laptops and desktops without paying for a copy of windows is the same reason. the profit margin on hardware these days is very, very low and a large percentage of a company’s profits come from MS kickbacks as long as they refuse to sell anything but windows based pc's and laptops. By selling Linux machines, Dell is not going to get some of that MS money that it needs so, the Linux purchaser has to make up the difference. Also, it is a very small percentage of Dells customer base that will request a Linux computer so there is no real volume in selling to the Linux market compared to windows.

If anything, the price of the Linux computer is probably a reflection of the hardware’s true cost. This is partially the reason Apple computers are higher than their windows competitors.

HarshReality
July 10th, 2007, 06:17 AM
I cant help but wonder... Im going to have to call in and see what a system costs with no OS at all......

macogw
July 10th, 2007, 06:55 AM
I cant help but wonder... Im going to have to call in and see what a system costs with no OS at all......

dell.com/open and click on FreeDOS (it's just there for you to test that the hardware isnt boinked)

hardyn
July 10th, 2007, 08:25 AM
No I dont think so, they just say is free as in freedom.

So Dell isn't actually cheating with computer prices

I REALLY wish Stallman used a different word than free, in free software; I has really put, for me, an undesirable twist on the philosophy behind OSS software... i think i can feel a rant post brewing in my brain :P

macogw
July 10th, 2007, 08:54 AM
No I dont think so, they just say is free as in freedom.
There was an article that said they'd be cheaper than the Windows ones.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/314124_dellfolo03.html

Dell plans to start offering Ubuntu as an option on selected consumer PCs in the coming weeks, said Jeremy Bolen, a Dell spokesman. Ubuntu is free, and machines pre-installed with it will be less expensive than PCs of the same configuration that come with Windows, Bolen said.

deepclutch
July 10th, 2007, 08:59 AM
I think isnt there any options in europe an us to get ur pc assembled :? In India(for that matter most south asian countries),70% of pcs are assembled and a license for windows Vista ultimate costs Rupees 17000/- or 425+ Dollers.So we are getting a good discount if we dont buy vista.also most parts are from taiwan companies.and Linux usage is in rise too.hope the monopolies give more options to customers.

WebDrake
July 10th, 2007, 02:20 PM
So!!!
Don't buy from DeL$.:lolflag:

Great. First major retailer to ship Linux in a major way and you suggest we should boycott them. You'd rather the former status quo where no one supports Linux and we have to fight for hardware compatibility? Better to pay a higher price now and persuade other retailers to come in on the game than to make it a commercial failure and persuade everyone that no one really wants Linux.

I suspect the price difference, if any, is due to commercial software vendors (Microsoft and others) sponsoring Dell to include their software on machines.

x86asm
July 10th, 2007, 02:24 PM
You can get an additional $200 off the Windows 1420 price...
http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?t=555963

Kubunteando
July 10th, 2007, 02:55 PM
I don't think we should boycot Dell. I think the quality/price ratio is quite good in Dell products.
On the contrary we should support them.

But definitely I would not buy a preinstalled Linux box from them.
I would buy the Windows, I would decline on the license agreement, and I would ask for that money back.

There are guys they have done it already. They cannot force you accept the license.
At least not yet.

Then I would install Linux in a fair compatible HW, because that is the reason I am buying from Dell.

x86asm
July 10th, 2007, 03:00 PM
Great. First major retailer to ship Linux in a major way and you suggest we should boycott them

Dell started selling Red Hat systems in 2000 on a wide range of servers, desktop, and notebooks. WalMart was selling Linux systems in 2002. HP started playing with Linux in 2003. So this is nothing new.

And this current issue is about questioning if Dell is serious about its Linux line, or is just using Linux for publicity.

We already know that Dell makes most of the profit seen on a system from Microsoft. So how are they going to make money selling hardware with no OS or Linux pre-installed?

dca
July 10th, 2007, 03:09 PM
...and I pointed this out how long ago? Let me find the post/thread...

az
July 10th, 2007, 03:51 PM
Forgive me if I only skimmed through this thread. I think people are overly excited about this.

Dell has sales. They put stuff on sale when they think it will sell and that will make them a profit. Sometimes they have a sale to undercut competition, sometimes it's just because they haven't moved enough stock.

I'm sure that in a few weeks, the afformentioned system will go back to regular price and the price difference between the Ubuntu system and Windows system will go back to what it was at the beginning.

As well, you can't assume that an Ubuntu computer costs Dell less than a Windows one. Ubuntu surely costs them more in support than windows and whenever they sell a windows box, they make more profit from the OS sale - a profit they don't make from shipping Ubuntu.

darkog
July 10th, 2007, 03:52 PM
I'm seem to recall posts from the past where people indicated they'd buy a Dell Ubuntu machine at any cost; anything to avoid MS. Buy up or Dell will pull the plug on it.

Agreed. Buy up or shut up.

So, if no one buys a Ubu system from Dell, Dell is just going to kill the program, and there will be a big news release in the internet media, "No one wants Linux -- it's dead! Dell tried and failed, all people want to buy is Windows Vista". And MS will use that in their FUD campaigns and everything is right back to where it has always been and you will have no progress over a Windows OS monopoly. And you will be no closer to hardware vendors offering you supported Linux drivers for their new hardware -- because they will continue to think it's not worth their time.

Don't buy pre-installed windows. Just wait for deals, look for coupons, and get a good deal on a Ubu Dell if you are going to buy from Dell. Your purchase counts and it might lead to better things in the future. And even if there is a small difference in final price or perhaps the hardware is not EXACTLY as the windows one with the "free upgrades" -- don't be a cheap skate. Buy a Ubu Dell and make your purchase count.Think of it as your own personal contribution to the project in exchange for the free OS, stability, apps, and patches that you get for free.

Just my 2 cents.

salsafyren
July 10th, 2007, 05:02 PM
Agreed. Buy up or shut up.

So, if no one buys a Ubu system from Dell, Dell is just going to kill the program, and there will be a big news release in the internet media, "No one wants Linux -- it's dead! Dell tried and failed, all people want to buy is Windows Vista". And MS will use that in their FUD campaigns and everything is right back to where it has always been and you will have no progress over a Windows OS monopoly. And you will be no closer to hardware vendors offering you supported Linux drivers for their new hardware -- because they will continue to think it's not worth their time.

I completely agree.

Of course this product is more expensive, since Dell had to hire new people, train existing ones, change the product line etc.

This is a chance for Linux, and all you can say: "It is too expensive".

Are you using Linux because it is cheap or because it is better than Windows?

Hex_Mandos
July 10th, 2007, 05:19 PM
No, I won't buy an artifically expensive computer for politics sake. Linux should be at least as cheap as Windows. Otherwise we're being ripped off. Linux must be supported by its own merits, not fanaticism. If I wanted to pay more for hardware compatibility, I'd buy from a small retailer like System76, not a megamonster corporation like Dell.

cprofitt
July 10th, 2007, 05:25 PM
I priced out a 1420 one with Ubuntu and one with Windows -- same hardware -- and the Ubuntu version cost $200 more and if I added 1yr of support for Ubuntu it cost $500 more.

Is Dell screwing customers by making them pay more?

I mean just order the windows machine for $200 less and download Ubuntu and install yourself... the base machine offers no support for the OS -- you have to pay more for that too.

az
July 10th, 2007, 05:42 PM
No, I won't buy an artifically expensive computer for politics sake. Linux should be at least as cheap as Windows. Otherwise we're being ripped off. Linux must be supported by its own merits, not fanaticism.

It'S a question of economics - one costs less than the other to ship, regarldess of what you think they should charge.

What if software freedom is something I want to pay for? It's my right. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't be able to do - and then call me a fanatic!

You know, there was a time when women were not allowed to vote. People called advocates of women's suffrage fanatical....

bapoumba
July 10th, 2007, 05:55 PM
@ PrivateVoid: merged your thread in here (thanks az!).

LMP900
July 10th, 2007, 06:01 PM
LET me defend Dell

First off, i have personally seen some killer deals on Dell laptops and desktops with Ubuntu.

Like a desktop for $214. Laptops for 399? High end systems for $650 all with Ubuntu.

I've posted this before, but if you simply log on to Dell and order a computer, chances are you just got ripped off.

To get a deal on a dell you need to SHOP.

First off google "dell coupons" often dell will have coupon # that you enter for big $$ off.
Second look at slickdeals.net for deals.

Yes sometimes the window machines are cheaper, sometimes the Ubuntu machines are cheaper.

Fact is, the Vista machines are moving slow, so they discount them. Dell bought thousands of Licenses from MS and only way to get there money back is to sell Vista machines.

I totally agree with this. When I ordered an Inspiron 1420N, I used a coupon and what a fantastic deal it was! I tried configuring a Vista machine with this current offer, and my Ubuntu Dell still came out as a better deal (for me). I'm quite happy with my decision.

cprofitt
July 10th, 2007, 06:06 PM
I think the price difference is a result of Dell not being able to load all the crapware that they do on the windows machines that help subsidize a cheaper price. When it comes to things being artificially lower in price, you have to look for the subsidies. Take those out, and the real price shows up to the consumer.

If there is any cheating, it's the price Dell charges for a windows box. It is likely rife with corruption and graft. Don't support the sale of windows boxes.

The point is not how the price got lower... as a Linus user it makes more sense to buy the LOWER priced box and install Ubuntu yourself...

That is just... um... odd. Smart buyers will do just that and then the uninformed will be shown sales figures and, again, get the wrong picture.

cprofitt
July 10th, 2007, 06:15 PM
Prices for Windows are significantly higher when you try to match Ubuntu's free software to propietary software. Examples are Office 2007, Photoshop Elements virusscanner etc

in the end the Windows comp was 500 dollars more expenisve ;)

EDIT:

precie software needed

Microsoft® Office Small Business 2007 + outlook 207 + Publisher
Roxio Creator 9 Premier (CD/DVD burning)
Detto Intillimover (Data Migration)
Photoshop Elements (home use)

Um...

That's nice... if I buy the Windows machine and install Ubuntu myself I would have saved an additional $200 over the person that buys the actual Ubuntu box.

cprofitt
July 10th, 2007, 06:17 PM
I think it's because of support.

But they charge an additional $300 for support -- above the laptop being $200 more already.

darkog
July 10th, 2007, 06:21 PM
The point is not how the price got lower... as a Linus user it makes more sense to buy the LOWER priced box and install Ubuntu yourself...

That is just... um... odd. Smart buyers will do just that and then the uninformed will be shown sales figures and, again, get the wrong picture.

So, your choice is to continue to support* a MS dominated desktop OS monopoly which seems to cause more harm than good for everybody, all in the name of "the cheapest price I can get today" philisophy.

Or, you decide to stand up and make a difference and refuse to support or contribute to that flawed system and perhaps even contribute to something that will make a difference.

The changes that some of these firms are hoping to pump down your throat while you pay out of your own pocket for them can only be countered by standing up for an alternative.

http://badvista.fsf.org/

* even if you just wipe windows and put Ubuntu on it, you have paid your money and supported a windows desktop solution.

Hex_Mandos
July 10th, 2007, 06:31 PM
It'S a question of economics - one costs less than the other to ship, regarldess of what you think they should charge.

What if software freedom is something I want to pay for? It's my right. Don't tell me what I should and shouldn't be able to do - and then call me a fanatic!

You know, there was a time when women were not allowed to vote. People called advocates of women's suffrage fanatical....

If selling Ubuntu costs more to Dell, that's THEIR problem. Not mine. I might help out a small company like System76 (as I said in my post), but I expect Dell to live by market rules. As it is, I don't think the money they charge for Linux is worth it. Hence, I'll just buy compatible hardware and install Ubuntu myself.

If you want to support software freedom, why don't you buy the cheaper system and donate the extra money for one of the FSF's priority projects (like Gnash, free graphics drivers, or a free Google Earth client, if I remember correctly) instead of giving money to a giant corporation?

(For the record, I'm not against Dell making money. I'm just not going to pay extra for something which is free to download)

cprofitt
July 10th, 2007, 06:38 PM
People do you know Dells cost structure ?
Do you know the comparative cost structures of a machine with Windows pre installed?
and one with Ubuntu installed.?

I will speculate that you do not. Therefore this subject is speculative and baseless.

Speculative? No. It just means that if you are inclined to buy a Dell you should buy one that has Windows on it; save money, and install Ubuntu.

darkog
July 10th, 2007, 06:54 PM
If you want to support software freedom, why don't you buy the cheaper system and donate the extra money for one of the FSF's priority projects (like Gnash, free graphics drivers, or a free Google Earth client, if I remember correctly) instead of giving money to a giant corporation?


Better yet, donate to Ubuntu.
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/donations

(and for the record, i am not for people blowing their money aimlessly. but if you really like a FOSS (such as Ubuntu) then try to make an effort to contribute back to the project in some way. no matter how small. be it promoting the distro, buying something with the distro on it, contribute bugs & feedback, contribute documentation, do something/anything. don't just sit back and expect everyone around you to do it)

hardyn
July 10th, 2007, 06:57 PM
I don't think we should boycot Dell. I think the quality/price ratio is quite good in Dell products.
On the contrary we should support them.

But definitely I would not buy a preinstalled Linux box from them.
I would buy the Windows, I would decline on the license agreement, and I would ask for that money back.

There are guys they have done it already. They cannot force you accept the license.
At least not yet.

Then I would install Linux in a fair compatible HW, because that is the reason I am buying from Dell.

They don't do this anymore, according the them they never did it; if you do not accept the EULA, you are asked to return the computer.

elementskaterbla
July 10th, 2007, 07:25 PM
i thought about buying my ubuntu pc from dell or system76, but then i found this other company, room98.com, they definately dont cheat you, i called there and asked them what there markup is after hardware price, JUST $50!!! dell marks up $100's! on there ubuntu pc's. this is what i got for $800: intel core 2 duo e6600 2.4 ghz (+ they overclocked it to 3 ghz for free!) 2 gigs of dual channel DDR2 800!!! 400 gig sata 2 hard drive, a radeon X1950PRO 512MB video card, and three years free phone support!!! plus there ubuntu comes loaded w/ tons of things that the average linux user would install right when they got it, like the new compiz fusion and emerald theme manager thingy, beagle integrated with deskbar and tonz of other stuff. well i just felt i was treated very farely so i decided to tell you guys about, this company deserves it!

aysiu
July 10th, 2007, 07:30 PM
People like to play the "compare equivalent systems" game. It's fun. It brings up some pretty interesting debates, especially in Mac/Windows PC comparisons. (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/06/24/the-price-of-apples-2/)

But, in the end, unless you already desire a high-end system, it's just an intellectual exercise.

The truth is that a lot of people might want the default specs for the Ubuntu laptop and not necessarily need 2 GB of RAM and a 160 GB hard drive. If that's the case, you are paying less money, and that's all that matters.

It's the same reason Mac/Windows laptop comparisons make no sense. You may spec out the Windows laptop to be $100 more than the Mac laptop that has the same specifications, but the person who is inclined to buy a $600 laptop doesn't want those high-end specs. All she wants is to email, word process, and surf the web... maybe listen to music and organize family photos.

I don't see what there is to debate about here, frankly. If you don't want to buy a Dell Ubuntu laptop, don't buy it. If you do, buy it. It's your money. Choose for yourself what you want to do with it.

Hex_Mandos
July 10th, 2007, 07:36 PM
People like to play the "compare equivalent systems" game. It's fun. It brings up some pretty interesting debates, especially in Mac/Windows PC comparisons.

But, in the end, unless you already desire a high-end system, it's just an intellectual exercise.

The truth is that a lot of people might want the default specs for the Ubuntu laptop and not necessarily need 2 GB of RAM and a 160 GB hard drive. If that's the case, you are paying less money, and that's all that matters.

But those same people might be getting better hardware for the same price otherwise. Sure, anyone can freely make a dumb choice, but that doesn't make it less dumb.

az
July 10th, 2007, 07:43 PM
If you want to support software freedom, why don't you buy the cheaper system and donate the extra money for one of the FSF's priority projects (like Gnash, free graphics drivers, or a free Google Earth client, if I remember correctly) instead of giving money to a giant corporation?

Because it is far more effective for GNU/linux to gain market share.



(For the record, I'm not against Dell making money. I'm just not going to pay extra for something which is free to download)

That's your choice and I would not presume to tell you what you should or shouldn't buy.

In this case, you are not only buying the computer with the OS on it, but the support (hardware and software) that goes along with it. It's maybe not woth it to you, but to some people, the ability to buy a computer that can run a free-libre OS without having to muck around with it is worth something. That person may not represent the lion's share of the market, and it may not make sense to market Ubuntu at a higher cost (maybe, maybe not?) but there is still value there.


I don't see what there is to debate about here, frankly. If you don't want to buy a Dell Ubuntu laptop, don't buy it. If you do, buy it. It's your money. Choose for yourself what you want to do with it.

Hear! Hear!

aysiu
July 10th, 2007, 07:46 PM
But those same people might be getting better hardware for the same price otherwise. Sure, anyone can freely make a dumb choice, but that doesn't make it less dumb.
I don't think you're understanding my point at all.

You seem to still be going on the "if you compare matching specs" argument. I'm not saying that if you match the specs.

I'm saying there might be people who would prefer to pay $774 for a lower-end computer than $819 for a higher end computer.

If you want to call those people stupid, I hope that makes you feel superior. People have their own money, and they make their own choices as to how to spend that money. It's not up to you to tell them to spend an extra $45 to get "a better value." Sounds like bait and switch to me.

bapoumba
July 10th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Thread moved to the "Dell" forum.

ageilers
July 10th, 2007, 08:38 PM
This rant all started because of a Windows machine getting a FREE 2GB memory and 160GB hard drive promo. It is just business, it happens everyday. Overall, the Ubuntu PCs are cheaper, not by a lot, but they are.

forrestcupp
July 10th, 2007, 08:58 PM
This was moved from Absolute Beginner Talk to the Cafe because it wasn't a support request. So why was it moved to the Dell Support forum?

bapoumba
July 10th, 2007, 09:06 PM
This was moved from Absolute Beginner Talk to the Cafe because it wasn't a support request. So why was it moved to the Dell Support forum?
Did I do the first moving ? Guess I'm not very consistent, my apologies :/
The Dell forum is for both the discussion and the support regarding Ubuntu on Dell. At least that's the way it was set up originally.

technikalKP
July 10th, 2007, 09:49 PM
This would all be simpler if Dell just added Ubuntu to the list of OS options on their Home consumer PCs that supported it rather than have a separate product line.

However, if they did that, I'm sure they'd get tons of people buying it because it was $50 cheaper, then bitching about how horrible Dell is because the new PC they just bought won't run iTunes or the new game they bought at Best Buy. Not to mention how difficult it would be to ensure every possible hardware configuration selectable worked as expected with Ubuntu.

Trying to maintain consistent pricing and discounts across product lines is hard - especially when there's a whole group of people out there quick to throw up posts, Digg stories, create Dell/MS conspiracy theory/etc anytime the discounts don't match.

aysiu
July 10th, 2007, 09:53 PM
In any case, the $200 price difference exists right now only because of the current promotion on the Windows laptop, which is a free upgrade to 2 GB of RAM and a free upgrade to 160 GB of hard drive space.

I think the real question is: Would the Ubuntu laptops ever get such a "free upgrade" promotion?

In the meantime, people can stick with the other Ubuntu laptop, which doesn't have an exact Windows equivalent any more.

iota
July 11th, 2007, 12:57 AM
Good old economies of scale.

Less people will buy the ubuntu laptops, therefore they cost more. It's not Dell screwing anyone over, it's just them not throwing money away.

bz0b
July 11th, 2007, 01:05 AM
I actually found the dell xps 410n to be 120 dollars less with the same specs as the windows
Maybe you are trying to make them too much alike, Im not sure, but i am happy paying 750 for an xps with
intel 6420
2 gb ram
320 gb hard drive
nvidia graphx
and dvd burner and 13 in 1 media card reader

WebDrake
July 11th, 2007, 01:23 AM
Dell started selling Red Hat systems in 2000 on a wide range of servers, desktop, and notebooks. WalMart was selling Linux systems in 2002. HP started playing with Linux in 2003. So this is nothing new.

And this current issue is about questioning if Dell is serious about its Linux line, or is just using Linux for publicity.

We already know that Dell makes most of the profit seen on a system from Microsoft. So how are they going to make money selling hardware with no OS or Linux pre-installed?

I'm aware of all the examples you cite. The present situation is still unprecedented for Linux in terms of both publicity and availability. It's also significant in terms of support for a community-developed, free-as-in-freedom-oriented distro rather than an enterprise distro from a commercial seller.

Even if Dell is not serious now, it can be made serious very quickly if this product line is a success. But serious or no, they won't be able to continue to support a product line that is not making money. To follow such a high-profile announcement of adoption with an admission of failure would be a major blow to Linux everywhere, "proving" to computing manufacturers that it's not a viable operating system for general consumption.

Accusations of bad faith are just divisive and unhelpful---and as other posts in this thread have revealed, unfair and unfounded too.

jacob01
July 11th, 2007, 01:35 AM
im running a dell e520n and i have never used more than 400 meg of ram eaven on games with other things runing and idles around 200 meg

id like to see vista or even xp to try to do that

i have seen vista computers idleing using over 400 meg of ram

cleentrax
July 11th, 2007, 02:02 AM
Good old economies of scale.

Less people will buy the ubuntu laptops, therefore they cost more. It's not Dell screwing anyone over, it's just them not throwing money away.

Dude, it's the same computer. The Ubuntu 1420n is just a 1420 with a different disk image, and some options unavailable due to proprietary drivers. Economies of scale don't enter into it. Dell should be offering the hardware discounts regardless of the OS installed.

iota
July 11th, 2007, 02:05 AM
Heh yeah mines a little over 200 mb now, and I have firefox, utorrent, gaim, beryl and rhythmbox running.

My install of xp uses more than that straight after it's booted, let alone vista. I don't see where all the resources go, windows just seems to swallow ram whole.

*Anyway, back on topic :P Part of the problem with selling linux (I think) Is that the type of people who use it are more likely to build their home computers. I know I do anyway, however if I had enough money to buy a laptop (Unfortunately I don't) I'd definitely go with Dell.

darkog
July 11th, 2007, 02:42 AM
Even if Dell is not serious now, it can be made serious very quickly if this product line is a success. But serious or no, they won't be able to continue to support a product line that is not making money. To follow such a high-profile announcement of adoption with an admission of failure would be a major blow to Linux everywhere, "proving" to computing manufacturers that it's not a viable operating system for general consumption.


agreed. very good post!!

this thread is getting stale and going nowhere. the guys that want to save $$ under any circumstances are set on buying pre-installed w/windows vista regardless. there is no point trying going over it once again.

Shay Stephens
July 11th, 2007, 04:41 AM
No, I won't buy an artifically expensive computer for politics sake. Linux should be at least as cheap as Windows. Otherwise we're being ripped off. Linux must be supported by its own merits, not fanaticism. If I wanted to pay more for hardware compatibility, I'd buy from a small retailer like System76, not a megamonster corporation like Dell.

It's not artificially more expensive, the windows boxes are artificially cheaper. The windows boxes are like corrupt politicians taking bribes. Don't support the corruption. Buy a linux box that is priced honestly.

bodhi.zazen
July 11th, 2007, 05:23 AM
I'm aware of all the examples you cite. The present situation is still unprecedented for Linux in terms of both publicity and availability. It's also significant in terms of support for a community-developed, free-as-in-freedom-oriented distro rather than an enterprise distro from a commercial seller.

Even if Dell is not serious now, it can be made serious very quickly if this product line is a success. But serious or no, they won't be able to continue to support a product line that is not making money. To follow such a high-profile announcement of adoption with an admission of failure would be a major blow to Linux everywhere, "proving" to computing manufacturers that it's not a viable operating system for general consumption.

Accusations of bad faith are just divisive and unhelpful---and as other posts in this thread have revealed, unfair and unfounded too.

+1 \o/

If you do not like what Dell has to offer, Shop elsewhere. It is not as if Dell is the only option for a box with Linux, let alone Ubuntu, pre-installed. Build your own and install yourself.

But I agree with WebDrake, I think this is a major milestone for Ubuntu. Yea, the OS may be freely available, so you are paying for installation, configuration, and support.

PS : I moved this thread to the cafe as I though this was more a social discussion rather then a Dell support thread. I do not know who moved it here.

user1397
July 11th, 2007, 06:13 AM
Right now, if you compare a dell 530 vista home premium desktop, with:

- intel core 2 duo 1.8GHz
- 2GB RAM
- 250GB HD
- No monitor
- No speakers
- 16X DVD+/-RW Drive
- 128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8300GS

and all the other defaults, and then select the same specs for the ubuntu dell 530N, which actually has a worse graphics card (256MB NVIDIA Geforce 7300LE TurboCache),

the vista dell costs $100 less than the ubuntu one. yep, 100 buckaroos.

$509 vs $609

this is partly due to the fact that right now dell has a free upgrade up to 2 GB RAM, but only for the vista desktop.

~LoKe
July 11th, 2007, 06:24 AM
Supply and demand.

wolfen69
July 11th, 2007, 06:26 AM
again?

cleentrax
July 11th, 2007, 06:29 AM
Guess what? Dell changed the prices! 2gb RAM and 160GB SATA HD are now free upgrades on the 1420n!

steven8
July 11th, 2007, 06:31 AM
again?

Still. . .

jdrodrig
July 11th, 2007, 06:34 AM
I would refine it to "it is a matter of elasticity" and its relation to lack of substitutes...how many pre-installed Ubuntu machines are out there? how many pre-installed Vista machines are out there?

beefcurry
July 11th, 2007, 08:43 AM
small price to pay for actual hardware support for ubuntu ;)

darkog
July 11th, 2007, 11:50 AM
he is correct. it about $300 of value included.

that should silence the "artificially inflated" prices ppl.

x86asm
July 11th, 2007, 11:59 AM
And how long will this last before the price discrepancy returns? Because it always seems to.

The free upgrade to the RAM expires tomorrow for the Ubuntu system.

Derspankster
July 11th, 2007, 01:15 PM
So buy the Windows version and simply install Ubuntu - problem solved!

odin1965
July 11th, 2007, 02:47 PM
I think the price differences are simply delays in rolling out new pricing to the Ubuntu side. Here are two quote I got this morning. wish they sold these in Canada. I can't even get the 1420 with the Intel wireless option here.

WINDOWS MACHINE - 884.00


My Components
SYSTEM COLOR Spring Green edit
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5250 (1.5GHz/667Mhz FSB/2MB cache) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows® Vista Home Basic Edition edit
DISPLAY Anti-glare, widescreen 14.1 inch display (1280x800) edit
VIDEO CARD Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 edit
MEMORY FREE! 2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 at 667MHz edit
HARD DRIVE FREE! 160GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM) edit
OPTICAL DRIVE CD / DVD writer (DVD+/-RW Drive) edit
WIRELESS NETWORKING Intel® 3945 802.11a/g Mini-card edit
INTEGRATED WEBCAM No Camera edit
BATTERY OPTIONS 56Whr Lithium Ion Battery (6 cell) edit
SOUND OPTIONS High Definition Audio 2.0 edit
My Software & Accessories
ANTIVIRUS SOFTWARE No Security Subscription (30-day trial) edit
OFFICE SOFTWARE Microsoft Works 8. DOES NOT INCLUDE MS WORD edit

Dell Recommends
Upgrade your software!
Upgrade to Microsoft® Office Home and Student 2007 - Word, Excel + PowerPoint [add $149 or $4/month1]
PHOTO AND MUSIC SOFTWARE No Entertainment software pre-installed edit
My Service
WARRANTY AND SERVICE 1Yr Ltd Warranty and Mail-In Service edit
GETTING-STARTED HELP No Dell On Call edit
DATASAFE ONLINE BACKUP Free 3 GB Online Backup for 1Yr edit
DIAL-UP INTERNET ACCESS 6 Months America Online Internet Access Included edit
ENVIRONMENTAL OPTIONS Free Recycling Kit edit
ALSO INCLUDED WITH YOUR SYSTEM
Integrated NIC and Modem Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
Adobe Software Adobe® Acrobat® Reader 7.0
Labels Windows Vista™ Basic
Processor Branding Intel Centrino Core Duo Processor
Miscellaneous Inspiron 1420



UBUNTU MACHINE - 834.00

My Components
SYSTEM COLOR Spring Green edit
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™ 2 Duo T5250 (1.5GHz/667Mhz FSB/2MB cache) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu version 7.04 edit
DISPLAY Anti-glare, widescreen 14.1 inch display (1280x800) edit
VIDEO CARD Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 edit
MEMORY 2GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 at 667MHz edit
HARD DRIVE Size: 160GB SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM) edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 8X CD/DVD Burner (DVD+/-RW) with double-layer DVD+R write capability edit
WIRELESS CARDS Intel® 3945 802.11a/g Mini-card edit
INTEGRATED WEBCAM No Camera edit
BATTERY OPTIONS 56Whr Lithium Ion Battery (6 cell) edit
SOUND OPTIONS Integrated High Definition Audio edit
My Accessories
My Service
WARRANTY AND SERVICE 1Yr Ltd Warranty and Mail-In Service edit
ENVIRONMENTAL OPTIONS Free Recycling Kit edit
ALSO INCLUDED WITH YOUR SYSTEM
Integrated NIC and Modem Integrated 10/100 Network Card and Modem
Processor Branding Intel Centrino Core Duo Processor

Duffy
July 11th, 2007, 05:09 PM
I just did a comparison between a simple windoz desktop and an Ubuntu desktop - Models 530/530N and the Ubuntu desktop was $150 more!

Dell is a freakin' rip off. Hey Michael, when we said we wanted Linux on your computers, we didn't say we wanted to pay more - we wanted to pay less and get out from underneath Bill Gates and his hoggy, buggy, closed OS. How can you charge $150 more for a free OS?

aysiu
July 11th, 2007, 05:19 PM
Let's summarize here:
-- Windows is currently cheaper because of a "free upgrade" promotion.
-- Windows computers come with all sorts of crapware (free trials and such), which lower the price.
-- Microsoft probably gives Dell bulk discounts on Windows licenses.
-- People still want to compare similar specs in order to be outraged, but sometimes consumers don't want similar specs--they want cheap with lower specs, not relatively cheap for the value for higher specs.
-- If you're outraged, don't buy a Dell. If other people want to buy a Dell, leave them alone. Live and let live.

Did I miss anything?

odin1965
July 11th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Dunno man, I get the Ubuntu cheaper

WINDOWS - 779
My Components
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (2MB L2 Cache,1.80GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium edit
MONITOR 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16X DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 8600GT-DDR3 edit
SOUND Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included edit
MODEM & WIRELESS No Modem Option

UBUNTU - 679
My Components
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (2MB L2 Cache,1.80GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu Desktop Edition version 7.04 edit
MONITORS 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16x DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 256MB NVIDIA Geforce 7300LE TurboCache edit
SOUND CARD Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included

BrokeBody
July 11th, 2007, 05:24 PM
I'm so glad beacuse Dell's machines with Ubuntu preinstalled are more expensive than with Windows. After all, Ubuntu is much better operating system than Windows :D, so I find this completely legitimate. ;)

odin1965
July 11th, 2007, 05:28 PM
Where are you guys getting these prices. With exactly equal components I am getting the Ubuntu dell cheaper. Run thru it and cut and paste both results here like I've done. Could be a flaw in the system with certain components selected. Both the notebook and desktops I quoted were significantly cheaper with Ubuntu. At least today.

justin whitaker
July 11th, 2007, 05:32 PM
Let's summarize here:
-- Windows is currently cheaper because of a "free upgrade" promotion.
-- Windows computers come with all sorts of crapware (free trials and such), which lower the price.
-- Microsoft probably gives Dell bulk discounts on Windows licenses.
-- People still want to compare similar specs in order to be outraged, but sometimes consumers don't want similar specs--they want cheap with lower specs, not relatively cheap for the value for higher specs.
-- If you're outraged, don't buy a Dell. If other people want to buy a Dell, leave them alone. Live and let live.

Did I miss anything?

No you did not.

Personally, I find this whole thread emblematic of the day in day out histrionics of the Linux Community. If you don't like Dell's pricing, go look at System 76.

Much ado about nothing, really.

Evan Burchard
July 11th, 2007, 05:45 PM
I bought a Z61m thinkpad from Staples a couple of months ago. I looked online for one without windows, but it was cheaper than any of the ones preloaded with linux. I tried vista, and thought that it was complicated in the wrong ways. For me, ubuntu is complicated in the right ways.

I think that everyone's suprise at the linux version being more expensive, or not having the same promotions as microsoft. I say, "so what." Everyone is just disappointed that dell is not doing something that seems instictively right.
aka. This is the way things should be in terms of money:

Free OS < Expensive OS.

But it's like this:

Free OS > Expensive OS - Probability of Buying MS Office - Bloatware - probably some other tricks I don't know

No system preloaded with linux before was cheaper than the microsoft version, and that is not changing with Dell. Okay... so Dell just adds another resource to buy a more expensive linux system. They are not offering a new service... they are getting publicity, and working the classic bait and switch with many I'm sure. Well, good for them. They're doing that, and at the same time promoting Ubuntu. Possibly misrepresenting it a bit, but for people who might think that a computer IS windows (or that email, yahoo, google, etc. IS the internet), linux gets a little exposure, which isn't a bad thing. A big name like Dell backing ubuntu (even if for their own purposes) might not seem important to those power users who can build their own pcs and are disenchanted with the company for one reason or another, but for Joe Dell customer, it might mean something that there IS an alternative to windows. I would like to think that this could inspire someone, or at least make them a little curious.

As far as getting a cheaper machine by buying it preloaded with windows... once again... "so what?" Yes, it would be nice to buy a machine without considering your effect on the linux community, and every corporation involved in your purchase. But I would just advise that you ignore that and buy the windows version. If you can get a refund by not signing the contract, well then sweet! Free Money!!! But I would argue that just buying the machines with windows is tantamount to free money. I know linux isn't just about free beer... but think about it... you could save $200 dollars and get free shipping. All you have to do is take what... 10 minutes to take off windows? For me, I see that as a great opportunity, and completely in the spirit of all things linux. ie (no pun intended) You are saving money and customizing your system.

You don't deserve a refund for not using vista, because you already got a discount based on the assumption that you would play the game: buy ms office, use google desktop, use the preloaded antivirus software (and update it), and above all, that you would not be educated enough to make a concious choice next time you want to buy a pc (and consequently buy windows).

Utimately, I see it like this. If windows/antivirus/whatever companies want to sponsor part of my computer, with the misguided hope that I will buy their products or look at their ads, then good on them. They saved me money. And I think that by being involved in this community (fledgling as I am), I show my support to ubuntu.
I am not saying that I wasn't disappointed when I heard that the Ubuntu versions weren't cheaper in many cases, but the companies that sponsored my computer were the only losers in that deal because they don't get the exposure and support that they were looking for from me. I'll admit though, that vista sticker will dig under your fingernails quite a few times before you can pry it off.

Feel free to pm,

Evan

dabl
July 11th, 2007, 05:47 PM
I find this whole thread emblematic of the day in day out histrionics of the Linux Community.

Yep. Let's see, if I add up all the major PC builder/sellers with the courage to offer a Linux pre-loaded machine, there are, uh, exactly ... ONE.

And so folks don't like his pricing policy and want to bash him for it. Sheesh, why wouldn't everyone want to serve this market, I wonder?

kamaboko
July 11th, 2007, 06:04 PM
Let's summarize here:
-- Windows is currently cheaper because of a "free upgrade" promotion.
-- Windows computers come with all sorts of crapware (free trials and such), which lower the price.
-- Microsoft probably gives Dell bulk discounts on Windows licenses.
-- People still want to compare similar specs in order to be outraged, but sometimes consumers don't want similar specs--they want cheap with lower specs, not relatively cheap for the value for higher specs.
-- If you're outraged, don't buy a Dell. If other people want to buy a Dell, leave them alone. Live and let live.

Did I miss anything?

You'll like this. Now Dell has a new laptop out called the Vostro. Basically it's a build upgrade from the Inspiron. In any case, NO CRAP WARE. Yes, you read that correctly. And, it's still cheaper than an Ubuntu setup.

$649

Intel Core 2 Duo T5470 (1.6GHz, 2MB L2 Cache, 800MHz FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista Home Basic (No XP option available at the moment)
14.1 inch Wide Screen XGA LCD Display
1GB Shared Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz, 2 DIMM
120G 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive
8X CD/DVD Burner w/ double-layer DVD+R write capability, w/o Roxio Creator
128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8400M GS
Dell Wireless 1390 802.11g Wi-Fi Mini Card
Integrated High Definition Audio
85 WHr 9-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery
MS Works 8.5-Eng: Basic Spreadsheet, Word Processing and Calendar Program
Adobe Acrobat Reader 7.08
1 Year Limited Hardware Warranty with Mail-in Service
10GB for 1yr Online Backup by Dell Datasafe
1 Year Dell Automated PC Tuneup
Starts at 5.35 lbs

cprofitt
July 11th, 2007, 06:06 PM
Dunno man, I get the Ubuntu cheaper

WINDOWS - 779
My Components
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (2MB L2 Cache,1.80GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium edit
MONITOR 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16X DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 8600GT-DDR3 edit
SOUND Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included edit
MODEM & WIRELESS No Modem Option

UBUNTU - 679
My Components
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (2MB L2 Cache,1.80GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu Desktop Edition version 7.04 edit
MONITORS 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16x DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 256MB NVIDIA Geforce 7300LE TurboCache edit
SOUND CARD Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included

Hmm...

Guess they are not the same... the 8600 is a newer better card.

kamaboko
July 11th, 2007, 06:10 PM
Dunno man, I get the Ubuntu cheaper

WINDOWS - 779
My Components
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (2MB L2 Cache,1.80GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium edit
MONITOR 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16X DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 8600GT-DDR3 edit
SOUND Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included edit
MODEM & WIRELESS No Modem Option

UBUNTU - 679
My Components
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (2MB L2 Cache,1.80GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu Desktop Edition version 7.04 edit
MONITORS 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 250GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16x DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 256MB NVIDIA Geforce 7300LE TurboCache edit
SOUND CARD Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included

I'll help you out. Did you look at the video cards? In no conceivable way is a 7300LE comparable to a 8600GT. That's one big difference.

cprofitt
July 11th, 2007, 06:16 PM
Where are you guys getting these prices. With exactly equal components I am getting the Ubuntu dell cheaper. Run thru it and cut and paste both results here like I've done. Could be a flaw in the system with certain components selected. Both the notebook and desktops I quoted were significantly cheaper with Ubuntu. At least today.

Your quoted specs were not the same as I pointed out.

Processor: E4300
Monitor: ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD
RAM: 1GB DDR2 667
HD: 250GB SATA
Optical Drive: 16X DVD+/-RW Drive
Video Card: Can not price same option left both at default
Sound Card: Integrated 7.1
Modem: Windows machine has one, Ubuntu machine does not -- no price reduction to "remove" it

Windows Machine: $629
Ubuntu: $679

With the laptops I can price out the same exact model and get a $200 difference.

The point is that buying an Ubuntu machine should be less -- everyone complains about the Windows tax, but that is not an issue... as we can see.

daniel of sarnia
July 11th, 2007, 06:39 PM
I'll help you out. Did you look at the video cards? In no conceivable way is a 7300LE comparable to a 8600GT. That's one big difference.

DELL CAN'T OFFER THE 8xxx VIDEO CARDS, THERE IS NO DRIVER IN UBUNTU 7.04 REPOS THAT WILL WORK WITH THEM, HOW IS THAT DELL'S FAULT?

kamaboko
July 11th, 2007, 07:08 PM
DELL CAN'T OFFER THE 8xxx VIDEO CARDS, THERE IS NO DRIVER IN UBUNTU 7.04 REPOS THAT WILL WORK WITH THEM, HOW IS THAT DELL'S FAULT?

I never said it was their fault. I'm just saying that the video cards are not in the same league, so it affects the price.

kamaboko
July 11th, 2007, 07:12 PM
Your quoted specs were not the same as I pointed out.

Processor: E4300
Monitor: ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD
RAM: 1GB DDR2 667
HD: 250GB SATA
Optical Drive: 16X DVD+/-RW Drive
Video Card: Can not price same option left both at default
Sound Card: Integrated 7.1
Modem: Windows machine has one, Ubuntu machine does not -- no price reduction to "remove" it

Windows Machine: $629
Ubuntu: $679

With the laptops I can price out the same exact model and get a $200 difference.

The point is that buying an Ubuntu machine should be less -- everyone complains about the Windows tax, but that is not an issue... as we can see.


Maybe in this sense...MS is your friend. :)

WebDrake
July 11th, 2007, 07:25 PM
DELL CAN'T OFFER THE 8xxx VIDEO CARDS, THERE IS NO DRIVER IN UBUNTU 7.04 REPOS THAT WILL WORK WITH THEM, HOW IS THAT DELL'S FAULT?

Actually, this is a good point (and may partly explain why Dell designates the Windows and Ubuntu machines as different products). Are the Windows machines necessarily going to be fully Linux-compatible?

Worth thinking about if you're considering installing Ubuntu yourself.

It's also something we should try to persuade Dell on, to be Linux-compatible even when Windows is the OS sold.

cprofitt
July 11th, 2007, 07:37 PM
Yep. Let's see, if I add up all the major PC builder/sellers with the courage to offer a Linux pre-loaded machine, there are, uh, exactly ... ONE.

And so folks don't like his pricing policy and want to bash him for it. Sheesh, why wouldn't everyone want to serve this market, I wonder?

You hear that sound of air rushing past your ears? That is the sound of reality going over your head.

I can't speak for others, but the POINT of this for me is that it would be nice if "generic" computer shoppers would have a reason to buy an Ubuntu box, when the Windows Box is less expensive they will buy the Windows box, because they do not know any better.

cprofitt
July 11th, 2007, 07:39 PM
DELL CAN'T OFFER THE 8xxx VIDEO CARDS, THERE IS NO DRIVER IN UBUNTU 7.04 REPOS THAT WILL WORK WITH THEM, HOW IS THAT DELL'S FAULT?

I agree! Dell techs are too stupid to install the drivers available from Nvida for the 8xxx series cards. They are certainly providing an excellent value in putting together the box.:confused:

cprofitt
July 11th, 2007, 07:40 PM
Actually, this is a good point (and may partly explain why Dell designates the Windows and Ubuntu machines as different products). Are the Windows machines necessarily going to be fully Linux-compatible?

Worth thinking about if you're considering installing Ubuntu yourself.

It's also something we should try to persuade Dell on, to be Linux-compatible even when Windows is the OS sold.

The laptops I priced out certainly would be as they were the SAME exact equipment.

daniel of sarnia
July 11th, 2007, 08:05 PM
I agree! Dell techs are too stupid to install the drivers available from Nvida for the 8xxx series cards. They are certainly providing an excellent value in putting together the box.:confused:

It's not that they are dumb, there is no reason for personal attacks. If dell did that then ubuntu sent down a new kernel through updates then it might kill an inexperienced users x.

What are they supposed to do, if your going to whine to someone wine at nVidia to free there drivers do they can be pre compiled ageist the free software it runs on do it's easy for users to install them so users can update them without jumping through hopes. Or if you must whine at the ubuntu dev to implement a video driver back port system.

But flaming dell over that issues is not really fare and I think is kind of ungrateful for them being the first to offer linux on the desktop on this scale. If you really have a big problem with how they do business then you don't have to buy their stuff.

daniel of sarnia
July 11th, 2007, 08:20 PM
I never said it was their fault. I'm just saying that the video cards are not in the same league, so it affects the price.

So are you trying to tell me that you have dells inventory on how much dell paid on one video card over another. Like come on, even if it is a bit more or the same for a bit less who are to to dictate how dell runs their business. It's not like they are robbing anybody blind. It is a fact that they do have to spend money on burdening engineers to work on ubuntu with their hardware.

frankly they did a good thing in server the linux community and you guys are just being kind of harsh. Keep in mind how fast this went from an idea on a web page to a real tangible product.

Like someone else has already mentioned in this thread, I wander where more companies don't want to server the linux community with results like this .

Or dell could just go back and not sell any linux pc's would that make you happy...

Shay Stephens
July 11th, 2007, 08:23 PM
Well I just ordered the 1420N laptop. Thank you Dell for offering a preinstalled Ubuntu laptop. I swore I would never purchase another windows license, and Dell is helping me keep that promise.

Thanks to the forum for the news that they were offering the upgrades, I was looking yesterday and was about to order a lesser machine. 160gb HDD and 2GB ram was a nice bonus :)

daniel of sarnia
July 11th, 2007, 09:03 PM
once you get it would you post a review of your impressions, I need a laptop for school and am really liking the looks of the 1420N, but I have to go state side to get one. Lucky for me I live right on the border 5 mins away :)

Shay Stephens
July 11th, 2007, 09:06 PM
Will do, it says it should be shipped on the 27th, so by the end of the month I should have it.

bapoumba
July 11th, 2007, 09:32 PM
@ ubuntuman001: merged your thread in here.

markofealing
July 11th, 2007, 09:47 PM
I've been buying Dells for nearly 10 years for work. The official line from Dell (according to my account manager at the time) when questioned over upgrade prices was "Dell charge a premium on upgrades to the base model for the consumer market".

Essentially their pricing strategy is to sell a bargain basement PC and then slap premium prices on the upgrades to make the profit. It's called a "loss leader" in marketing speak. The bottom line is if you are buying a Dell buy the specification as advertised and only upgrade where the prices are reasonable. The sticking point tends to be Hard Disks and Memory where you generally have to throw away the supplied hardware to upgrade with non Dell hardware at a cheaper price. This is where Dell gets you as generally it is not economic to take this approach so you are forced down their upgrade path.

This explains why in the original thread, there was such a big price difference between the standard Windows laptop price and the "upgraded" Ubuntu laptop. Using Dell prices, normalising the specification creates an artificial price difference. You would get a similar price difference if you were using just Windows PCs.

It's a problem, but it is also Dell's business model for consumer PCs. Dell uses a volume pricing model for business customers and therefore hardware upgrade prices are reasonable.

I don't believe Dell are ripping off Ubuntu customers (it's not in their interest) no more than they are ripping off Windows customers. We should be grateful for Dell taking the bold step and backing Ubuntu Linux, it gives Ubuntu (and Linux) a fighting chance on the desktop.

kamaboko
July 11th, 2007, 10:56 PM
So are you trying to tell me that you have dells inventory on how much dell paid on one video card over another. Like come on, even if it is a bit more or the same for a bit less who are to to dictate how dell runs their business. ..

Look up the prices of those video cards. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see there is a big discrepancy. I'm not dictating anything, but when someone says, "look...they're the same" and they've got an apple and an orange, I'm going to point it out.

WebDrake
July 11th, 2007, 11:28 PM
You hear that sound of air rushing past your ears? That is the sound of reality going over your head.

I can't speak for others, but the POINT of this for me is that it would be nice if "generic" computer shoppers would have a reason to buy an Ubuntu box, when the Windows Box is less expensive they will buy the Windows box, because they do not know any better.

... but that can't possibly be the POINT of things for Dell, because that's not what their business is about. They don't exist to push Linux, they exist to sell computers.

If by doing that Linux benefits, this is a bonus but we shouldn't castigate them for not being the "perfect" Linux distributor when right now they're taking a pioneering approach whose success will bring great benefits to our community.

hgebbia1
July 11th, 2007, 11:37 PM
Here's a thought.

Dell have a legal obligation to provide a variety of different support levels to customers. Perhaps the price difference pays for Dell to hire 1st & 2nd Line support analysts with Linux troubleshooting skills. Its bad business to sell a product for which you have no in-house expertise to provide support to the punters.

Somebody has to foot the bill for this - might as well be the people who are buying and using Linux...

I called Dell for Ubuntu support, the guy I got was almost impossible to understand. And his comment was just get 7.04 Feisty Fawn, load and your good to go. NOT!

darkog
July 12th, 2007, 12:02 AM
Well I just ordered the 1420N laptop. Thank you Dell for offering a preinstalled Ubuntu laptop. I swore I would never purchase another windows license, and Dell is helping me keep that promise.

Thanks to the forum for the news that they were offering the upgrades, I was looking yesterday and was about to order a lesser machine. 160gb HDD and 2GB ram was a nice bonus :)


Good show!! And good attitude!! Pls post your review & comments.

daniel of sarnia
July 12th, 2007, 12:30 AM
Look up the prices of those video cards. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see there is a big discrepancy. I'm not dictating anything, but when someone says, "look...they're the same" and they've got an apple and an orange, I'm going to point it out.

No one is saying they are the same, and the price right now does not indicate what dell did pay for them. It is also entirely possible that dell pays vary close to the same price of a 7xxx card as a 8xxx card. Once any video card is in mass production scale their is little difference in price. Just because my ati 1900xtx goes 100 time faster then my old ati 8500 does not mean the production line cost is 100 times more today.

All that aside that does not dispute that dell's engineers were burdened at the cost of dell and it's shareholders to bring ubuntu to those computers. Why should they not cost more? It is well known that pc makers also make a lot of money from installing crapware one windows pc's so the price of windows is often non existent. At then end of the day ubuntu 7.04 does not have the drivers so they could not pre install the newer cards any ways. If you don't like how they do business you don't have to by there stuff. Or if you just hold on until the next version of ubuntu in October then they will be able to sell pc's with the newer video cards at a lower price. But two months after they will offer newer video cards on the windows computers that ubuntu does not have drivers for and you'll just whine more.

ungrateful for the lengths they have gone to in order to offer these computers windows free, you don't here this crap from apple people that pay a little more for sometimes a little less in order to fight an monopoly. Linux is just better then windows for me in so many ways the little bit more they want means nothing because of the value received in return of having a better os with hardware that is specificity compatible and not having to support a monopoly that pushes crappy software. Yup some things are worth more for just those facts.

kamaboko
July 12th, 2007, 12:44 AM
No one is saying they are the same, and the price right now does not indicate what dell did pay for them. It is also entirely possible that dell pays vary close to the same price of a 7xxx card as a 8xxx card. Once any video card is in mass production scale their is little difference in price. .

Allow me to amuse my self at your expense. Toyota Corolla's and Nissan 350ZX's are both mass production cars, so they should cost about the same.

daniel of sarnia
July 12th, 2007, 01:26 AM
Allow me to amuse my self at your expense. Toyota Corolla's and Nissan 350ZX's are both mass production cars, so they should cost about the same.

they are both from different company's with different fab technology's, so your analogy does not apply. If you were to say a Nissan z 350 and and infinity g 35 should cost the same then I would agree with you. But the point I'm really making is a three by six inch broad of plastic and metal can only cost so much at the end of the day. I hate to brake it to you but nothing you pay for in our economy today is worth close to what you paid for it, oh yeah and santa claus does not exist, I'm sorry to have to be the one to have to break it to you but it's true. Deal with it. Oh the tooth fairy is not real either... sorry buddy...

user1397
July 12th, 2007, 01:44 AM
Let's summarize here:
-- Windows is currently cheaper because of a "free upgrade" promotion.
-- Windows computers come with all sorts of crapware (free trials and such), which lower the price.
-- Microsoft probably gives Dell bulk discounts on Windows licenses.
-- People still want to compare similar specs in order to be outraged, but sometimes consumers don't want similar specs--they want cheap with lower specs, not relatively cheap for the value for higher specs.
-- If you're outraged, don't buy a Dell. If other people want to buy a Dell, leave them alone. Live and let live.

Did I miss anything?
Well you did miss one thing: now you have the option of removing that crapware before you buy it; really, see it for yourself in the "Add my software..." tab when you build a comp. Under the different headings, there is always an option of having NO software of that type pre-installed.

Of course, there is still crapware installed by default, such as the infamous 30-day anti virus trial, and some other crap. But still, can we still name this a reason for the windows dells to be cheaper than the ubuntu dells?

daniel of sarnia
July 12th, 2007, 01:47 AM
Well there is this (http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=602)

That is it just cost more to serve a niche market.