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m0biu5
July 2nd, 2005, 06:36 PM
I am barely a month old when it comes to linux, so I have been doing a lot of thinking and reading from a newbies point of view. One thing that comes to mind is the lack of information about getting started, or making the switch from Windows to Linux . The information is out there, and I have been doing a lot of reading (making good use of the search tool), however, I think it would be a great idea to offer some guidance straight from the desktop (especially for those without internet).

N(ew)ubuntu could be your basic ubuntu install with a few extras for us newbies. After one becomes comfortable, the N in ubuntu could be removed so that you have good 'ole ubuntu. I guess it would be similiar to the getting started in Windows... but better of course ;-)

Thoughts?


Note: I have done my research and I must make note that nubuntu seems to be a possible name for a smaller ubuntu (nano ubuntu?)

WildTangent
July 2nd, 2005, 06:43 PM
why not just have the regular ubuntu, with instructions to download a newbie package from the repositories

-Wild

m0biu5
July 2nd, 2005, 06:50 PM
Because then they would be required to have the internet and such. Also, I don't know if would affect downloading it from the repo you suggest, but there is that whole editing the sources.list stuff...

XDevHald
July 2nd, 2005, 06:52 PM
I am barely a month old when it comes to linux, so I have been doing a lot of thinking and reading from a newbies point of view. One thing that comes to mind is the lack of information about getting started, or making the switch from Windows to Linux . The information is out there, and I have been doing a lot of reading (making good use of the search tool), however, I think it would be a great idea to offer some guidance straight from the desktop (especially for those without internet).

N(ew)ubuntu could be your basic ubuntu install with a few extras for us newbies. After one becomes comfortable, the N in ubuntu could be removed so that you have good 'ole ubuntu. I guess it would be similiar to the getting started in Windows... but better of course ;-)

Thoughts?


Note: I have done my research and I must make note that nubuntu seems to be a possible name for a smaller ubuntu (nano ubuntu?)
I see your point and I am really happy to see more and more users switch to Ubuntu :D

On the most important part of your post I noted to myself as Nubuntu sounds polite to new users and would allow them to get use to the demo version of Ubuntu before actually running into the real deal of the OS running between their fingers.

The UbuntuGuide.org is a popular formula to use as users can use while running Ubuntu and learning the resources they have before doing any major detailing to their desktop. I am not at words when it comes to pulling a fresh guide of OS to users who don't know much of linux or in fact, nothing at all when it comes to running the OS and it's knowledge base repositories.

To be more clear of what I am trying to get at, I don't think pulling a fresh CD or new mirror out of Nubuntu so users who know nothing of it can enjoy and learn the OS before installing Ubuntu and knowing how to run it just by using Nubuntu.

If a user really wants to know how to run the OS, then it is highly recommended that they use UbuntuGuide.org as a learning point of Ubuntu so that they can actually use the OS instead of using a baby version of it.


## If this is not exactly what you mean then void this post.

poofyhairguy
July 2nd, 2005, 07:07 PM
Well....if you want to fork Ubuntu, go ahead. Its legal to do. But let me make a small note:

I agree that some of the documentation for Ubuntu is medium difficult for people who are just switching over. But:

1. I believe that Ubuntu as it is right now lacks some tools to make people comfortable. Look here for discussion:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=43911&page=12&pp=10&highlight=command

Unless you can make these tools, the hardest part about Ubuntu must be dealt with by new users.

2. If your plan to make it easier was to have Java and media codecs installed by default (one of the harder things for new users to grok), be sure you live in a country that allows you to distribute these things. In the U.S. distributing such things could lead to a lawsuit too big to pay (thats why that is why it is on the default).

3. The main thing lacking is documentation that is at a beginner level. You can do that without a fork.

sapo
July 2nd, 2005, 07:31 PM
3. The main thing lacking is documentation that is at a beginner level. You can do that without a fork.

I m not sure about it.. how is the % of users who REALLY read the documentation?

They install and wanna use.. i never read the documentation before trying something.. i try first.. if i cant make it work i read about it.. and if even reading i cant make it work.. i search google... and them ask in the forums...

The problem with users is that:

When they buy a box with windows installed by default.. EVERYTHING is already working.. they dont need to install any hardware.. the just go to a site like download.com or another one and start downloading everything...

then they open everything they ve downloaded.. clicking in next next next next finish..

It results in a lot of spywares.. but now they have their video working, they can burn cd cause their burner already comes with a nero copy, their vga drivers are already installed... they just USE it...

But to install linux.. they need:

Download the CD, make a partition, install linux.. this is the easiest part.. the hard part starts now:

Download the vga driver (and read a good tutorial cause is so freaking hard to make 3d work).

Download a software do burn cds.. and maybe learn how to mount them (the first time i used linux i said: "OMG the cd dont come out.. whats up with this ****... (and continued to press the eject button.. then i read that i had to umount the cd before ejecting)".

"guess" wich command will configure their internet connection.. i m not i newbie in linux.. but it took some time tiping asdl<tab> ppp<tab> on the command line to find out wich command would config my adsl connection.

And if they have a dial up modem (very commom here)... their travel through hell has just began...


These reasons.. are why noobs dont stay with linux installed and DONT use it as their primary os...

it doesnt matter if the documentation is good or is the worst... they just wont read it...

They wanna click.. so.. just make apps that they can click instead of type in the terminal.

poofyhairguy
July 2nd, 2005, 09:30 PM
And if they have a dial up modem (very commom here)... their travel through hell has just began...

I often say that "Linux is the best OS for those with broadband connections." Considering how big the updates are for every popular version of Linux, you get the feeling that ALL the devs have broadband and they assume (or want) all of their users to too.



These reasons.. are why noobs dont stay with linux installed and DONT use it as their primary os...

it doesnt matter if the documentation is good or is the worst... they just wont read it...

They wanna click.. so.. just make apps that they can click instead of type in the terminal.

Well...forking won't solve that problem either. The ONLY thing that will solve te problem you described is if Linux is shipped WITH new computers. Since MS's tactics prevents that......Linux will unfortunately stay the nerd OS.

Kvark
July 3rd, 2005, 12:39 AM
I often say that "Linux is the best OS for those with broadband connections." Considering how big the updates are for every popular version of Linux, you get the feeling that ALL the devs have broadband and they assume (or want) all of their users to too.

If only the stores that sell software for other platforms wanted to sell free software for linux, then it would be a very good alternative for others then broadband users too.


Oh, and on the newbie help issue interactive tutorials on the most commonly confusing subjects would be very helpful.

m0biu5
July 4th, 2005, 05:00 PM
On the most important part of your post I noted to myself as Nubuntu sounds polite to new users and would allow them to get use to the demo version of Ubuntu before actually running into the real deal of the OS running between their fingers.That is sort of what I was getting at - yes, it would be more polite, but it would not be a watered-down demo. It would be Ubuntu under the hood, but with an extra bit of icing on top for those who need it.
The UbuntuGuide.org is a popular formula to use as users can use while running Ubuntu and learning the resources they have before doing any major detailing to their desktop. I am not at words when it comes to pulling a fresh guide of OS to users who don't know much of linux or in fact, nothing at all when it comes to running the OS and it's knowledge base repositories.Not sure I understand all of what you are saying there, but as I replied before, I think that internet access should not be required by new users. All of those questions and answers should be packaged with Nubuntu.
If a user really wants to know how to run the OS, then it is highly recommended that they use UbuntuGuide.org as a learning point of Ubuntu so that they can actually use the OS instead of using a baby version of it.Yes, I very much agree that the guide is an excellent starting point. My argument is that it be included with the CD. When I first started a month ago, my friend asked me questions like: "Would you like to be able to edit ID3 tags?" Then he told me to download EasyTAG. I realized a bit later that all he was doing was going thru the list on the guide! Not everyone has an experienced friend, or even one who is readily available.



I agree that some of the documentation for Ubuntu is medium difficult for people who are just switching over. But:
1. I believe that Ubuntu as it is right now lacks some tools to make people comfortable. Look here for discussion:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthr...ghlight=command

Unless you can make these tools, the hardest part about Ubuntu must be dealt with by new users.
I very much agree with you on that point. This topic and that thread are a whole other discussion, in my opinon. I don't think that Nubuntu would have GUI tools and Ubuntu users would be required to use the command line.



2. If your plan to make it easier was to have Java and media codecs installed by default (one of the harder things for new users to grok), be sure you live in a country that allows you to distribute these things. In the U.S. distributing such things could lead to a lawsuit too big to pay (thats why that is why it is on the default).

Nope, not what I had in mind. Maybe instead there should be an explination of why one isnt installed by default, and then of course the answers you find on the guide.

3. The main thing lacking is documentation that is at a beginner level. You can do that without a fork.
The split (or more of an addition) wouldn't be defined by the difference in documentation, but rather by the accessability to it

Here is what I mean - when you install Windows XP, regardless of the version, you will get that annoying little bubble from the task bar welcoming you and asking you whether you want to learn some stuff. Everytime I (re)install windows for someone, I find it very annoying to have to close that thing and make sure it doesnt show up whenver one logs in. Therefore, the difference of the N would be that extra bit of help. Those who are experienced with Linux and/or Ubuntu want to install from a CD that lacks that extra "polite" icing so that they can go straight to their desktop and go! As for the rest of us, having a little push in the right direction every once and a while might make a large difference. Ubuntu can be the distro for Human beings, whether they are new to computers, new to linux, or even to Ubuntu.


Oh, and on the newbie help issue interactive tutorials on the most commonly confusing subjects would be very helpful.
That is more of what I am getting at. In this example, newbies would love to have tutorials to go through and learn, but your regular Ubuntuer wouldnt want these installed on their system, it would just be one more thing to remove.

Big Venus
July 4th, 2005, 05:08 PM
Most people that use linux have had experience with other linuxes or are power users or programmers or computer scientists, or even an average user that is really experienced at using it... So, for me its not that difficult...

m0biu5
July 4th, 2005, 10:13 PM
Yes, that may be true, but it is my understanding that the community wants to reach out to make Linux usuable for all users..

poofyhairguy
July 4th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Yes, that may be true, but it is my understanding that the community wants to reach out to make Linux usuable for all users..


Actually, the goal is to make Linux usable for all the users that want Linux.

Optimal Aurora
July 4th, 2005, 11:03 PM
Actually, the goal is to make Linux usable for all the users that want Linux.
Its not working all that great because people need to modify the software for people that don't understand anything about programming to get it to work stably on their systems...

m0biu5
July 4th, 2005, 11:22 PM
Actually, the goal is to make Linux usable for all the users that want Linux.

The problem is that everyone wants linux, they just don't know it yet. :razz:

Optimal Aurora
July 4th, 2005, 11:29 PM
The problem is that everyone wants linux, they just don't know it yet. :razz:
What... You have to be kidding me and the other users that are admins and developers that would rather use windows versus linux... I don't know how you could even say that. Are you gone mad...

poofyhairguy
July 4th, 2005, 11:32 PM
Its not working all that great because people need to modify the software for people that don't understand anything about programming to get it to work stably on their systems...

I don't really understand what you are trying to say here. You are alluding to something....hmm....The only time I've had stability problems in Linux is when I use Java apps. or when I mess with (the very pretty) xcompmgr.

I'll just assume that post meant "but Linux has not reached that goal yet." I agree.

And thats why no one in the Linux community is saying "We are done guys. Good deal. Go home and enjoy what we got."

The kernels keep updating. The distros keep releasing. Each year brings new features....new ideas...

Nothing is perfect. The closest a human can get is to strive for perfection.

crashtest
July 5th, 2005, 12:25 AM
Nothing is perfect. The closest a human can get is to strive for perfection.

If Ubuntu means "humanity to others" and Kubuntu means "towards humanity", it would be very cool to learn that Nubuntu means "striving" or "learning" to be Human.

Here's hoping! :-)

m0biu5
July 6th, 2005, 01:49 AM
What... You have to be kidding me and the other users that are admins and developers that would rather use windows versus linux... I don't know how you could even say that. Are you gone mad...
Uhh, that was a joke, so I think you misunderstood, and mistyped.

Big Venus
July 6th, 2005, 03:20 AM
I feel that you may be on something. Back when I was first introduced to linux, I had lots of problems with finding things. I am really good at the grep and find commands now, but I also love the Search for Files GUI interface.

If they make a beginner version like that then it would help to bring more people to linux.

Nu-Buntu
July 6th, 2005, 05:44 AM
OK, quit trying to steal my name!

Now, on another note . . .

I remember Geoworks for the PC had a 3 level user interface. A real simple newbie interface, a standard, and an advanced.

I also know that a Windows-based, free HTML development program has 5 interface levels. Evrsoft's 1st Page 2000 I believe.

In other words, others have tried a similar concept. I am not sure it is suitable for Ubuntu, but hey, I am not the authority on this.

m0biu5
July 7th, 2005, 03:00 AM
OK, quit trying to steal my name!

Now, on another note . . .

I remember Geoworks for the PC had a 3 level user interface. A real simple newbie interface, a standard, and an advanced.

I also know that a Windows-based, free HTML development program has 5 interface levels. Evrsoft's 1st Page 2000 I believe.

In other words, others have tried a similar concept. I am not sure it is suitable for Ubuntu, but hey, I am not the authority on this.
Heh, sorry about the name - yeah, thats what I am getting at, but then again, I am no authority either =)

defkewl
July 7th, 2005, 03:54 AM
I think the current Ubuntu distribution are good enough for newbie. Perhaps what it needs is a graphical installer although some said the current installer are easy enough.

aysiu
July 7th, 2005, 04:19 AM
I think the current Ubuntu distribution are good enough for newbie. Perhaps what it needs is a graphical installer although some said the current installer are easy enough. I don't know if a graphical installer is necessary. I've tried well over ten different distributions, and I've always come back to Ubuntu and Mepis. I think these are the top two distros out there for newbies, and I always recommend them without hesitation.

For folks comfortable with the command-line (or at least comfortable enough to just copy and paste some instructions from the ultra-thorough Ubuntu Guide), I recommend Ubuntu.

For folks who feel they absolutely need everything GUI (at least at first), I recommend Mepis.

They're both Debian-based, and they're both available for free.

Bite_me_Bill
July 7th, 2005, 05:46 AM
IMO, by default installing shortcuts or bookmarks to the Ubuntu Resources available to the new users should be enough. With the arguement that new users don't like to read, this is where new users need to get out of the M$ way and learn to read. Fact is they will be doing more reading than ever before. Look at all the man pages and other things. Your not being handed an OS that works the way someone else wants it to work. You are handed a basic OS to set up to work the way that you want it to work.

With all the distro's that I have tried Ubuntu, do to it's resources, so far is the best available to new users that are thinking about switching. The resources are readily available via the internet. If the new user doesn't have internet connectivity then maybe the choice should be another distro that has resources available on bookshelves.

andlinux21
July 7th, 2005, 05:52 AM
Ubuntu to me is easier than when i first tried linux with mandrake back when Red hat was 7.0 I was shocked at how it detected all of the devices on my old laptop. Everything worked out of the gate except the sound which after some reading I got to work in a day. Good distro for newbies!!