I hate MS a lot more now.

[poofyhairguy]

I can't believe this. MS is considering buying (and thereby rewarding) Claria. Claria makes gator, the "original" spyware program and the bane of my life when I was a Window's user.

http://news.com.com/Microsoft+said+to+be+in+talks+to+buy+Claria/2100-1030_3-5769583.html?tag=st_lh

If I wouldn't have already switched to Linux....today would be the day. Screw MS.

[bored2k]

I half couldn't believe this when I saw it. They're buying Gator ? I mean, what's going to happen next time I run Spybot ?! "Spyware found, press Fix to fix it... Problem solved: deleted C:/Windows".

I can only imagine their going to implement *something* like this to Longhorn by saying it will be a tool to help you contr... man I can't even imagine a decent excuse.

[poofyhairguy]

man I can't even imagine a decent excuse.

"We admire the way they treat our customers"

[bored2k]

"We admire the way they treat our customers"
LMAO. So let me get this straight: Microsoft has an adware removal tool (whatever its name is), is making an Antivirus Tool, and last but not least, they're buying Gator ? *Smacks head thrice*.

[sonny]

That is outrageous... They are going to control everything... and users are going to be happy... This all fault of windows users... cuz they're all missinformed (in the best case), or not even informed at all... they have to read what their supplier is doing.. I mean, any bussines man does that.. check up what is your supplier wanting to do, if it's not good for you you change your supplier. Users are not doing it, and they're getting f***d up. Good thing I use Linux, it's like having an umbrella when it's raining and everybody else is getting wet.

[WildTangent]

ive removed gator almost everytime i run a spyware check, but what does it do? and what reason would MS have for buying it?

-Wild

[Lovechild]

I had a talk with a friend about this earlier:

Him:
Microsoft bought Gator... *sigh*

Me:
In pop up:
"We at Microsoft would like to thank you for being a mindless drone, for your convience we have deleted the Linux ISO you just downloaded and erased all ext3 partitions on your system - Linux is for COMMUNISTS
Kind regards
Your friends at Microsoft


This message brought to you using Gator technology"

They can call it.. Website interaction technology, advertisement sounds so nasty

Him:
website interaction tech, eh?
sounds like javascript to me

Me:
no no.. this allows websites to contact you, even when you aren't visiting them... hell you don't even have to be online it will cache important messages about man-on-pumpkin sex and ****** for you and display them in convient little windows (pop ups have just negative karma attacted to them lets call them... Information placeholders)

[primeirocrime]

Linux is for COMMUNISTS :)

nawhhhh c'mon linux is for anarchists like me! and also liberals and developing nations and well just about anything else.


I thought Microsoft was staring to make some sense with the recent aproach to some people in the open source and even getting their hands on Chief Architect [former] of Gentoo. And even read that the future Word and Excel documents were going to be open. What gives? Are they having a battle internaly with light versus darkness?

Well I hope the gator bites them where it smells funny.

[sapo]

I dont know even a single windows user that never had gator installed on his computer ](*,)

[bgstratt]

hehe, here is where it gets funny, they get the Gentoo guy to rewrite the Gator to invade Linux and Mac, since they're both UNIX-based, thereby squashing all competition on the net, only those sad little souls with no internet connection would survive.

[sonny]

hehe, here is where it gets funny, they get the Gentoo guy to rewrite the Gator to invade Linux and Mac, since they're both UNIX-based, thereby squashing all competition on the net, only those sad little souls with no internet connection would survive.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ](*,) :?

[bored2k]

hehe, here is where it gets funny, they get the Gentoo guy to rewrite the Gator to invade Linux and Mac, since they're both UNIX-based, thereby squashing all competition on the net, only those sad little souls with no internet connection would survive.
Hey man, you just ruined my sleep tonight .

[UbuWu]

Stay ahead of the competition:

1. Release a new version of ms antispyware
2. Release the corresponding new gator version
3. Be the first to detect and clean it

:razz:

[musicman2059]

Bah... you know what happens when M$ buys something, right?

They put holes in their software! (Security holes, that is.)

And you know, there are some countries (like Japan IIRC) that have a little thing called Anti-Monopoly laws. Don't ya think the US needs one of those now? ;)

[KiwiNZ]

I dont think I have ever lost sleep over software or a software company , I have way more interesting and exciting things to lose sleep over.

[Stormy Eyes]

I dont know even a single windows user that never had gator installed on his computer ](*,)

I have to use Windows at work. I've never gotten Gator installed. Or any other spyware, for that matter. I'm paranoid.

[sapo]

hehe, here is where it gets funny, they get the Gentoo guy to rewrite the Gator to invade Linux and Mac, since they're both UNIX-based, thereby squashing all competition on the net, only those sad little souls with no internet connection would survive.

i just hope you are completely wrong :-#

[bored2k]

I have to use Windows at work. I've never gotten Gator installed. Or any other spyware, for that matter. I'm paranoid.
Make a book on how you keep Windows 100% crapware free. O'reilly would publish it; I would buy it.

[sapo]

Make a book on how you keep Windows 100% crapware free. O'reilly would publish it; I would buy it.

btw.. sometimes i lke spyware.. i ve earned a lot of money fixing spywares and virus stuff in some companies that i ve worked as a freelancer :grin:

[musicman2059]

Make a book on how you keep Windows 100% crapware free. O'reilly would publish it; I would buy it.

If I were to write it, it would basically be this a book with one page, made of the following:

How to Keep Windows 100% Crapware Free:

Don't use Windows. Go to Linux. :D

[qalimas]

How to keep Windows crapfree:
Aim for inside the toilet, if a mess happens, Windex is your friend.

How to keep Windows spyware/adware free:
Don't hook it up to the internet, never click start, do not attempt to boot the computer or open a document. For the love of God, get Linux...

[Stormy Eyes]

Make a book on how you keep Windows 100% crapware free. O'reilly would publish it; I would buy it.

Clinical Paranoia in a Nutshell. Yeah, O'Reilly would love it. Seriously: the only sites I view from work are this forum, FARK, forums.realotw.org, and my webmail. I use my work email solely for work, and if I get an unexpected attachment I run it through the virus scanner. I haven't had any problems yet.

[poofyhairguy]

How to keep Windows spyware/adware free:
Don't hook it up to the internet, never click start, do not attempt to boot the computer or open a document. For the love of God, get Linux...

LOL.

I still don't understand Ms's move. This is like a cop saying

"We are going to stop all drug use in this town by buying all of it away from the dealers so they lack a supply."

It just invites more who want easy money to sell drugs (or spyware in MS's case) so they get bought out.

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/5F11

[bgstratt]

Just goes to show you never can tell what's really gonna happen next. With the Gentoo guy going to MS, they're gaining the advantage of indepth information into one of the more customizable and presumably faster gnu/linux distro's, and with buying gator, geez, what's with all the g's, they get insight into spy/ad/mal/keepitoffmymachine/ware and how it can help them with their goal of embedded drm and checking on who needs to go to jail next for downloading a patch to make their software work better that violates the EULA and god know's how many different software patents and because even though he's only 12 the guy might be a terrorist.

On another note, that might make a good rip off of the you might be a redneck, "If you have ever downloaded something that Little Bill didn't want you to, you might be a terrorist." "If you think nobody but you should be able to tell your computer what to do and what can be on it, you might be a terrorist."

Now don't think that I hate MS Windows, I think it does what it was meant to do, for the most part. As for the corporation and how they operate, that's a whole other story, they've made a couple movies about it, and people (yes I'm guilty of it too, that darn wife of mine) still buy their OS because it comes on the computer and they're too lazy or ignorant to change it.

It'd be pretty funny to see that in a campaign slogan, "I don't use windows because I like it, I use it because I'm lazy and it works out of the box....if only it worked a few weeks down the road too, then I'd be set. Oh well, I can always just call somebody and pay them to fix it for me or set it to auto download patches that should have been included originally and upload anything it wants because I can't be bothered to read some computerized agreement that says they can revoke my license agreement and take all the software I just paid for, well at least paid for the license to use it, including my breakthrough in cold-fusion, the plans for the better mouse-trap, the outline for world domination and a new program that let's you use your computer to tour the galaxy through the eyes of an alien named Joe that they'll rip off and say they came up with first or they had the rights to since it was created on their system.

[poofyhairguy]

and people (yes I'm guilty of it too, that darn wife of mine) still buy their OS because it comes on the computer and they're too lazy or ignorant to change it.

If your wife won't use Linux, then there is always Apple.

[bgstratt]

I can't say that she won't use it, because I've caught her on my laptop or one of the other computers using ubuntu to play games or surf the net or whatever, she just can't stand the fact of having paid for something and then not using it just because something else works better or faster, that and she'll find the one tiny little thing that I can't make linux do, like shockwave, and that will be her rock solid defense, even if she never uses it. Most people are like that, they'll buy a bag full of dog crap, realize it's dog crap and still keep it just because they paid money for it and don't want to seem like they're wasting money. .....maybe if I didn't rag on her so much about wasting money....hehe

[poofyhairguy]

she'll find the one tiny little thing that I can't make linux do, like shockwave,

I use shockwave a lot. WINE works well for that.

[Kvark]

It is a smart move, integrating gator's spying power into longhorn itself will give them a lot of data to base targeted msn ads on. And if anyone would do anything that microsoft's EULA agreements restricts, then it'll result in a "Big brother Bill is watching you!" popup. Very effective way to make people pay.

I feel very sorry for the windows users though.

[sonny]

LOL.

I still don't understand Ms's move. This is like a cop saying

"We are going to stop all drug use in this town by buying all of it away from the dealers so they lack a supply."

It just invites more who want easy money to sell drugs (or spyware in MS's case) so they get bought out.

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/5F11
Ha... That is a good analogy.

[Kvark]

No, a cop buying drugs to soak up supply is not a good analogy for this, (unless the cop uses the drugs).

If you read the article then it is clear that microsoft intends to use gator's knowledge and technology in order to monitor users and tailor ads based on the users' behaviour.

[bgstratt]

I never even thought of doing that poofyhairguy, now I'm going to have to try it, not that I really need shockwave for anything I do, but you never know when you are gonna come across that one little thing you might want to see or do that the computer is not set up to handle yet. That is one of the appeals of Windows to some people, if you need something else to view or do something, you can be the super cracker that is inside and next, next, next, finish then reboot and get your virus, spyware and viewer all in one, instead of manually downloading and installing just the piece you want on your computer and saving that much more headache and time later on.

The real reason for her reluctance to switch though is the bag of dog crap analogy, no matter how bad it smells, ya still paid for it, and it's a shame to waste money you already spent. (I know that sounds stupid, that's why I wrote it that way)

With that said, I totally agree with you, Let's go buy all the drugs so the dealer's don't have a product, LMAO, just think if people thought that backwards, and they do, Let's buy all the Windows so they don't have a product, I don't care who y'are, that's funny, not really, but I never said I had a normal sense of humor.

btw, thanks for the tip on Wine-Shockwave Poofy, sorry if I sound like a jerk, it's only cuz I am one, I don't mean to be

[davahmet]

WooHoo!!!

I am absolutely, 100% in favor of this and hope Microsoft buys more of these parasites.

Because the first thing Microsoft will do is throw their massive pool of resources at it to make sure it can never be run on Linux. Go, Bill Go!!

[bgstratt]

ok, I hate to post two in a row, but the cop thing is a joke, and the key words being used in the argument for MS acquiring Gator are monitor and tailor. Nobody wants to be monitored, especially by our computers, because that equates to stealing the freedom I've personally served to defend, we all are entitled to and has been earned and fought for by each generation before me, and tailoring something towards a particular person or group is just another word for brainwashing. Brainwashing can be a simple technique, just repeat the same crap over and over, ever get a song stuck in your head, brainwashing, repeating, tailoring the music to a particular person or group. Just like a cult where all the people kill themselves and give all their personal posessions to the leader, I can't remember who wrote it, or which thread, but Mother corporation is becoming guilty of the same crap as Scientologists and any other cult with all the same crap, I am not a drone, and I refuse to be forced to become one.

guess I am too longwinded to get in two right in a row

[skirkpatrick]

Why is everyone so fixated on the fact that MS hired the Gentoo guy? It's not like he hired Linus. There are probably tons of people out there that are very familiar with the Linux kernel and a lot of the other software in Linux. Heck, it's not like MS can't download the entire source code and look at it :)

[bored2k]

Why is everyone so fixated on the fact that MS hired the Gentoo guy? It's not like he hired Linus. There are probably tons of people out there that are very familiar with the Linux kernel and a lot of the other software in Linux. Heck, it's not like MS can't download the entire source code and look at it :)
That Gentoo "guy" happens to be one of the more respected and revered Linux powerhouses on the planet.

[MetalMusicAddict]

That Gentoo "guy" happens to be one of the more respected and revered Linux powerhouses on the planet.
Im sorry man and I dont mean this like a @hole but... So?

[bored2k]

Im sorry man and I dont mean this like a @hole but... So?
It's a jab to the groin for the Linux world. First of all , "It's not like he hired Linus" makes it sound like Mr. Robbins is not really important, wich is wrong. As you all know, the modern-day paradigm is that Gentoo is a special piece of Open Source reserved for and only for the most elite group of users (true or not true it doesn't matter). Microsoft aimed straight to the heart by hiring him (note that I don't hold any grudge for Mr. Robbins, it was the right thing to do for his debt and his family). What happens if the iPOD creator, who has spend years and years (hypothetical example) gathering believers who think there is no such thing has the iPOD and all other players suck, suddenly got hired by Rio ? Wouldn't the iPOD zealots be devastated and perplexed ? My point is that he is simply not someone out of the pack that knows his way around the linux kernel, he's one of the most redoubtable Linux members in existance.

[WildTangent]

why hasnt this company been put out of business, isnt it illegal to spy on people without their knowledge/permission?

-Wild

[sonny]

why hasnt this company been put out of business, isnt it illegal to spy on people without their knowledge/permission?

-Wild
A good guess is that windows users DON'T KNOW they are being spyed... and if you tell someone, they say it's just linuxer's crap to sell, those things only happens in movies. When things like this are actually happening.

[bored2k]

why hasnt this company been put out of business, isnt it illegal to spy on people without their knowledge/permission?

-Wild
It's just like when you install MSN Msgr. "Would you like to submit *anonymous* info ? Yes/No ? No ? Ok, well still do it through Windows. Heck, we even have Gator coming for Longhorn..peace".

[poofyhairguy]

No, a cop buying drugs to soak up supply is not a good analogy for this, (unless the cop uses the drugs).

If you read the article then it is clear that microsoft intends to use gator's knowledge and technology in order to monitor users and tailor ads based on the users' behaviour.

Oh great. So the best reason is because the damn spyware maker knows more about their customers then they do?

You are right...my analogy is off....

[nocturn]

<Sarcasm warning>

I get it...
1. Make a vulnerable OS
2. Buy and make Anti-Virus/Spam/Adware products
3. To drive sales of #2, well you would need Virus/Adware/Spam wouldn't you.

They are taking monopolies to literal.

</Sarcasm warning>

[FLeiXiuS]

Well of course, they want to infect your system with loads of "Welcome to Micosoft World, before taking your seat would you like to check out of other promotional offers?"

User Clicks No!

"Great! It appears a vast majority of users who had selected this option had recently chosen this software title MS Blah Blah"

User Denys Offer!

"It appears your not with any interest with our amazing software deals, how about our amazing hardware deals, if you sign up now you have a chance to win a free laptop?"

User fustrated clicks no again.

"Windows has encountered a runtime error 0x102012E10. Please restart and consult your windows manual!"


Thats how I take microsofts approach to this.

[Dark_Sniper*]

Man im a MS user But thank god im moving to linux know. Plz dont shoot me i truly can say i hate windows alot becasue of viruses and trojans and crap like that. Just this moring around 3:00 i was working on a forum and boom trojan found i did a scan "142" trojans all the same and guess what the name was "Microsoft Trojan" i hate MS i cant wait for tomorrow i should be a linux user YES NO MORE MS>

[Kvark]

why hasnt this company been put out of business, isnt it illegal to spy on people without their knowledge/permission?

-Wild

First of all. To use their software you have to agree on one or several very lengthy and strangely worded EULA agreements. Everyone just agrees without reading it. There probably is a phrase about "gathering anonomous debug information" or something in one of those EULAs. So the users did know about it and agree to it without knowing it.


Secoundly, if you as a user would find proof of that a huge corporation is spying on you. What are you going to do, sue them?

The modern justice system is not about the truth. It is about who can spend the most money on lawyers who bend the truth. You spending a couple thousand at most have no chance to win a legal battle against a company spending millions on the trial. And after you lose, you get to pay their costs too, which is probably several times more then you make in a lifetime.

[MetalMusicAddict]

It's a jab to the groin for the Linux world. First of all , "It's not like he hired Linus" makes it sound like Mr. Robbins is not really important, wich is wrong. As you all know, the modern-day paradigm is that Gentoo is a special piece of Open Source reserved for and only for the most elite group of users (true or not true it doesn't matter). Microsoft aimed straight to the heart by hiring him (note that I don't hold any grudge for Mr. Robbins, it was the right thing to do for his debt and his family). What happens if the iPOD creator, who has spend years and years (hypothetical example) gathering believers who think there is no such thing has the iPOD and all other players suck, suddenly got hired by Rio ? Wouldn't the iPOD zealots be devastated and perplexed ? My point is that he is simply not someone out of the pack that knows his way around the linux kernel, he's one of the most redoubtable Linux members in existance.

"note that I don't hold any grudge for Mr. Robbins, it was the right thing to do for his debt and his family"

This was the thought in my head. Do we know that MS courted Mr. Robbins or did he persue the job?

Maybe in the end this will help make Windows a better OS? Yea, I know, this is a "hate MS" thread but in the end it seems more people are fed up with its lack of security and not MUCH else. So maybe Mr. Robbins will help to "plug the holes".

Also I think this is one of linux weak points. Money. Along with focus. People need to make a good living. Lots of linux devs dont get paid for what they do. So I feel that the best apps dont always get enought time put into them because people have to work at other jobs also. Has Mr. Robbins said he will no longer develop for linux? So if 1 dev cant keep going on something someone else picks a project up. Then that person might have their own view of how the project should go or a team cant come to a agreement. Lack of focus, a end result. One thing MS has. It might be to take over the world but hey, its a goal. :)

I love linux but I dont hate MS. I gotta admire that they can still fit their OS on 1 cd and support so much.

[jimcooncat]

Just a few points from my perspective, I've been using Microsoft Windows since ver. 2, as well as Unix-like systems for too many years:

Don't hide your head in the sand, Microsoft isn't going away any time soon.
Microsoft has many products, some of which are excellent software, some of which are ugly and full of holes. Everything they make isn't crap.
Microsoft is huge, and have many good and competent people working for it. Many good ideas in the organization are quashed along the way because of the bureaucracy.
I believe more individual users, small companies, and corporate departments will adopt Linux in the near future.
I think Longhorn will be a bust with even higher hardware requirements and not enough real functionality to make it worthwhile for many to upgrade. Driving even more small organizations to Linux.
The management of Microsoft isn't stupid, and they can see that their home and small org user base is eroding.
According to what I read, Daniel Robbins was hired to educate Microsoft about open source. They couldn't have picked a better person for the job. Besides his technical knowledge, he's a very skillful writer.
IMHO, Microsoft will start adapting to the marketplace who is demanding more openness and better interoperability with open systems.


My point is that Microsoft will by neccessity become "less evil" over time because of marketplace demands. People aren't going to put up with the restrictions of their "home" software (like XP Home Edition) when they see friends using free software without arbitrary restrictions. Microsoft will adapt to the marketplace demands, or risk losing thier home user base and OEM default installations -- but this will take several more years.

[N'Jal]

Window's isn't the problem here, windows is not sentient it cannot think, i hate with avengence the way microsoft deals with things, my driving instructor discovered that windows has a feature written into it that remember's every image you have looked at.

With this spying technology... remember those embarasing baby photo's of you in the bath your parents took, they scan the image in and put it on a CD, MS detect's images of children on your computer how bad is that gona look?

You manage an up coming band that no one really know's about you have these unathorised audio files on your computer... iliegal music? Nope.

Just somethings that poped into my head.

[AntiDragon]

I agree. Hell, I'm even MS certified but not because I worship Mr Gates but simply because IT is still MS dominated and it makes me more valuable. I can't even begin to mention the number of times MS have rubbed me up the wrong way (Activation anyone? Or how bout integrating the buggiest browser known to man with the OS?) but at the end of the day they have (and I know this is probably flame bait) been responsible for bringing computing to the masses. It could have been another company (alas, poor BeOS...) but it was always going to be a company that opened up computing to that masses.

Trouble is, now the masses believe that PCs are synonymous with Windows, and Microsoft knows it. And this leads to the extreme arrogance which casues so many problems...

Microsft thought it would be great to have a unified "plugin system in their browser. They called it ActiveX (COM by another name...). Everyone (And I mean *everyone*) else in the industry went "um...isn't that a security risk?". But "Microsoft Knows Best" TM. And now Windows machines are compromised within 12 minutes of browsing online. ](*,)

MS created Gator (indirectly) so it's fitting that they're now making it official.

The trouble with MS monopoly isn't that there software is buggy (although it is) or that they artificicially enforce their position (which they do) but that they are, like evryone else not perfect. Because when they make mistakes, when they get it wrong, it affects almost everyone with a PC or a network or a company.

Bashing MS won't change that. They're immune to it. Making people realise that they have a choice will, because it'll hit their market share and make the shareholders take not.

(By the way, this post is 50% opinion!)

Of course, you could argue that the MS bashing is what drives the OSS community forward....and hence why Linux is such a fantastic OS :razz:

[joplass]

I hope windows users should have an open mind and try linux for let’s say two months. Just give it a try. It won’t be easy, but not because linux is hard but simply because humans struggle through anything new. Once these windows users try linux I could certainly guaranty that at least a 1/3 of them will convert to linux now or in the future.

After I graduated from college where I was introduced to linux (RedHat 7), it took me about a year before having a dedicated linux box at home. The rest, well, you all know because I am posting in a linux forum today.

[AntiDragon]

I think the key to increasing Linux's foothold is with corporate users. Get the company moved to Linux (as quite a lot are doing) and then agree to help those users with their home PCs. Simple fact is Mr and Mrs Average Home-user will not consider moving to Linux even once they know it exists because there is a learning curve. It doesn't matter that the learning curve arises from being conditioned to Windows, the fact is it exists. Start talking about root directories and .session files and they are gonna run for cover begging Bill to forgive their transgressions :razz: !

The majority (not all) of new Linux users are either IT professionals and their immediate friends and families or IT enthusiasts/hackers/coders/gamers. And we are all pretty much able to make our own way with new software.

The majority of (non-corporate) PC users are the average "wanna surf. wanna write letters." users. An un-assisted jump to a new OS would be too much for them.

So, get Linux into the companies. The hotels, the charities - anywhere that is liable to have a Sys Admin or an IT support service. Then suggest to those oh-so-loyal employees that they can have Linux at home. There are no big companies (Linspire excluded) pushing Linux to the masses. So we need to do it instead, and we need to do it with stealth (of course, that might be my Splinter Cell playing habits speaking there... :-# )!

Now just let me umount /dev/soapbox....!

[Kvark]

Yea, companies and organizations wanting to avoid the large costs that comes with being windows based will expose many to linux. Becoming a major office OS would be a huge gain.

The key to getting the users to stay once you get more users to try it is a very user friendly distro. The wast majority of the computer users don't know anything about computers. There is still a lot of things in windows that seems like cryptic rocket science in latin to them even after they have used windows for years.

If they try linux then what decides if they like it or not will be if it gives them more or less confusing trouble then windows. Show them a command terminal and they flee for their lives even if all they have to do in it is sudo apt-get... Same thing with config files even if it's just a copy paste, any error messages more complex then "Please connect to the internet before updating.", and with anything that is not 100% in their native language.

Call the distro "Linux for people who can't use a computer", ...but maybe ubuntu will eventually manage to fill that role, even without compromising too much of the more advanced options for the experienced users.

Oh, and that distro needs to look beutiful too, so it gives a good first impression and feels modern. Well polished, yet proffesionally looking, 3D icons and 3D looking shapes all the way is a must.

[N'Jal]

Now just let me umount /dev/soapbox....!

Haha very good!

i know a very good friend has upgraded in the past year from 95 > 98SE i'm building them an ubuntu box, theoretically if she treats it right it should be ok.

[AntiDragon]

Lemmee come clean - I didn't come up with umount /dev/soapbox - I, er, customised it from somewhere a while back. (You never know who's gonna read your posts.... :-) ).

It's is an absolute crying shame that learning anything new, however simple, seems to generate fear and loathing amongst the great unwashed (No, I ain't Illuminati, hehe !). If it weren't for that and the relatively few hardware issues I reckon a lot of distros would be ready for the general public. Ubuntu especially, of course!

Personally, I don't push Linux itself too hard. I tend to push FOSS alternatives on Windows instead as that tends to be much more palletable. Particularly when the FOSS version is so much better than the original - man, I love Firefox! \\:D/
I also point people to places where thay can find their own alternatives (and a few OSS vs MS articles!) as well. Hopefully later on down the line they'll find themselves 'Linux Ready' without feeling too pressured. Honestly, you can be perfectly happy with Windows until you're brought out of your ignorance!

At the end of the day FOSS lives because we want it to. Not because of some desire to make profit (although you can - RedHat, Novell etc) or even because of some political agenda, but because there are a load of hackers (in the traditional sense) out there that love to code, and want software that does what they want, as opposed to having an OS that dictates to them what they can or cannot do. That's the real beauty of it all. I just hope that one day I'll improve my mediocre coding skills to the point where I can contribute properly too!

Hmm...speaking of which, I should probably stop ranting and do some actual work today...gah, I hate configuring routers.... :roll:

[aysiu]

Something both of you hint at that I don't know if either of you says outright is that the learning curve doesn't really matter if you're forced to learn it. A lot of people, for example, who use Mac at home have to learn Windows because Windows is their only option at work (sometimes it's the reverse case--like at my last job).

If companies adopted Linux for office purposes, people would have to learn Linux. And, honestly, if companies adopted Linux, most people wouldn't have to deal with the command line and config files because their IT staff would have their computers all set up for them and hopefully would not give them root or sudo privileges.

And once you take out the config stuff and CLI tweaking, how much of a learning curve would it be, really?

Then, once you have people forced to learn Linux, that's when you need the "user-friendly" distro that people can use at home because they've gotten used to using it at work. Honestly, though, what's made distros "user-friendly" for me is not the actual interface. In fact, most distros have the same interface (either Gnome or KDE) and are fairly user-friendly. It's the installation that's usually not user-friendly. First, the installation itself, then all the tweaking to get hardware to work (does it recognize my mouse, my video card, etc.?).

That's where vendors come in. If people start using Linux at work, you can bet Dell or HP will step up and start offering desktops and laptops preloaded and pre-configured with Linux for home use.

I don't know if Linux is going to take over the corporate world, but I hope it does. It may just take some exploitation of a Windows vulnerability that almost no Windows user can avoid in order to get people moving in that direction. I know when almost everyone I knew got hit with spyware last summer, that's when I started trying out Linux...

[AntiDragon]

Yeah. That was basically my point. The learning curve for most people is entirely artificial. In fact you could argue that it's because so many OSes are "user friendly" that such curves exist. The whole idea of user friendliness is to hide the inherent complexities of a modern OS. In doing so, you create arbitrary methods to simplify certain tasks - dealing with files, changing your configuration etc. Trouble is, once a user becomes comfortable with these methods, they have to effectively unlearn them all when migrating to a different system. I mkean the number of times I've tried to create a desktop link in Gnome by dragging a file from Nautilus...<shame faced>.....

If anything, the best targets for Linux conversion (even though I advocate the corporate/stealth approach) would be total PC nebies. They have no previous pre-conceptions to overcome other than the fear of computing in general.

Lemme be clear (Warning: Personal Opinion approaching!) - Linux distro's are NOT unfriendly to users. They are exceptional efforts and in the long run far easier to use than certain other OSes (:cough cough:).

I actually don't want to see Windows wiped out. Shocking, yes, but leagcy bus asside, Microsoft has created some very useful products. But I can't stand their monopoly and their marketing BS. I find it particularly offensive when I have to spend ages explaining why MS product X is not the best option just because it's MS.

While we live in a corporate environment we will need companies like Novell and MS to consolidate and push new products into the market. But we need them to be on competitive terms to drive forward innovation and drive down prices. And we need OSS to remind them that they are far from perfect and that they are not (and never will be I hope) the only choices. I would love to see a day when MS' biggest competotor is Linux (sigh.....:P).

Of course, this isn't the only view point - it just happens to be mine. That's the beauty of it all though isn't? Open Source, Open Choice!

[davahmet]

"note that I don't hold any grudge for Mr. Robbins, it was the right thing to do for his debt and his family"

Absolutely. Also I believe Mr. Robbins can still do great things for the FLOSS community from within the Microsoft camp since he was hired specifically to help Microsoft better understand Linux and open source.



Also I think this is one of linux weak points. Money. Along with focus. People need to make a good living. Lots of linux devs dont get paid for what they do. So I feel that the best apps dont always get enought time put into them because people have to work at other jobs also.


I just have to interject here because I am paid very well to develop Linux tools for use on Linux and to integrate Linux for embedded systems. Perhaps I'm just fortunate, but the Linux-based jobs are out there and increasing from what I am seeing.

I have been interviewing quite a bit lately, and I am hearing more and more from companies as well as SMBs the same interest in Linux and open source. These businesses, while still predominately Microsoft users, are beginning to ask questions about the feasibility of Linux and open source. They are exploring the options presented by open source and quite a lot of them want it. Now the good news for all of us in the Linux village is, the demand for Linux skills appears to be rising faster than it is being met.

Linux-based employment at least appears to be improving. Now, if a Linux distributor would let me telecommute so I can keep my home in Boise, then I would have indeed found the ideal Linux job. \\:D/

[davahmet]

Yeah. That was basically my point. The learning curve for most people is entirely artificial. In fact you could argue that it's because so many OSes are "user friendly" that such curves exist. The whole idea of user friendliness is to hide the inherent complexities of a modern OS. In doing so, you create arbitrary methods to simplify certain tasks - dealing with files, changing your configuration etc. Trouble is, once a user becomes comfortable with these methods, they have to effectively unlearn them all when migrating to a different system. I mkean the number of times I've tried to create a desktop link in Gnome by dragging a file from Nautilus...<shame faced>.....

If anything, the best targets for Linux conversion (even though I advocate the corporate/stealth approach) would be total PC nebies. They have no previous pre-conceptions to overcome other than the fear of computing in general.

Lemme be clear (Warning: Personal Opinion approaching!) - Linux distro's are NOT unfriendly to users. They are exceptional efforts and in the long run far easier to use than certain other OSes (:cough cough:).

I actually don't want to see Windows wiped out. Shocking, yes, but leagcy bus asside, Microsoft has created some very useful products. But I can't stand their monopoly and their marketing BS. I find it particularly offensive when I have to spend ages explaining why MS product X is not the best option just because it's MS.

While we live in a corporate environment we will need companies like Novell and MS to consolidate and push new products into the market. But we need them to be on competitive terms to drive forward innovation and drive down prices. And we need OSS to remind them that they are far from perfect and that they are not (and never will be I hope) the only choices. I would love to see a day when MS' biggest competotor is Linux (sigh.....:P).

Of course, this isn't the only view point - it just happens to be mine. That's the beauty of it all though isn't? Open Source, Open Choice!


*Applause* This is perhaps the most rational opinion I've read on the topic.

I agree 100%. I don't hate Microsoft by any means, I just strongly dislike their efforts to force computing exclusively to their view of how to do things.

[AntiDragon]

*Applause* This is perhaps the most rational opinion I've read on the topic.

I agree 100%. I don't hate Microsoft by any means, I just strongly dislike their efforts to force computing exclusively to their view of how to do things.

Aww..I'm all embarressed now.... :-P

Trust me, not all my opinions are so rational! Don't get me started on MS Frontpage....

<Sits in front of screen spouting a torrent of abuse while work colleagues call the local loony bin....>


Um..I'll stop now. :-#

[aysiu]

If anything, the best targets for Linux conversion (even though I advocate the corporate/stealth approach) would be total PC nebies. They have no previous pre-conceptions to overcome other than the fear of computing in general. What better "new[b]ies" than young children? Didn't Apple and Microsoft get users by making deals with schools? If we can start getting schools to use Linux, these young children will grow up, and they'll know how to use multiple operating systems. How great would that be?

I remember when I grew up in the 80s, all the computers at school were Macs, so I had to learn Mac. Then, my parents had DOS and Windows, so I had to learn DOS and Windows. Imagine children being proficient in at least three OSes.



I actually don't want to see Windows wiped out. Shocking, yes, but leagcy bus asside, Microsoft has created some very useful products. But I can't stand their monopoly and their marketing BS. I find it particularly offensive when I have to spend ages explaining why MS product X is not the best option just because it's MS. Yes, we shouldn't hate Microsoft products. The corporating may be ugly, but a lot of their products are great. Microsoft Excel, for example, is a work of art.

[poofyhairguy]

Yes, we shouldn't hate Microsoft products. The corporating may be ugly, but a lot of their products are great. Microsoft Excel, for example, is a work of art.

Sure. I'll agree with that. And:

<elitist nerd>
I appreciate what MS has done for computers- made them cheap. I remember buying a 386 before Win 95 came out...it was $5000!!. MS made a nice fantasy with its marketing that "you, a regular person, CAN use a computer." Its almost ironic that MS wants to buy Gator seeing as how that company was a big part of bursting that fantasy. But I digress.

MS and its OS's low quality (especially pre W2K) taught people that computers are a money pit. An expense never to be recouped. This has driven the sales of PC hardware (much more than nerds could alone) and we all reap the benefit of it.
</elitist nerd>

But that does not excuse the behavior of the company. If it really buy Gator, then I will have some good ammo needed to switch people. MS will be invincible for another decade at least...but Windows can't hold on forever.

You know what a depressing thought? Thinking about the last time you'll have to admin an XP box.

I say 2012.

[KiwiNZ]

I know this is a Linux forum , but sheesh , these endless Microsoft bashing threads are tiresome. MS is not that bad.
There is Corporates a darn site worse out there, eg...

The drug companies still selling Thalidimide in 3rd World countries
The Oil Cartels
Union Carbide
The Coffee Cartels
The Insurance Companies and their "Act of God" clauses ,damm I hate that one.
SCO
The Tobacco Companies especially their advertising again in 3rd World Countries.
There is a certain Database Corp who wants to rule the World
And so on ......

So please can we change the channel for a while , please huh huh huh

[vega44]

Micosoft Will Own You! One Way Or Other!!!! There Is No Stopping Micosoft!! They Can Buy Your Souls Without You Knowing It!

[KiwiNZ]

Micosoft Will Own You! One Way Or Other!!!! There Is No Stopping Micosoft!! They Can Buy Your Souls Without You Knowing It!
They also sneak into your bedroom at night

[poofyhairguy]

They also sneak into your bedroom at night

Nope. Your children's bedroom. TO EAT THEM.

Actually...most of the posts in this thread are moderate. I bet you could do a complement MS thread and it would work well. This place is made out of asbestos.

But you are correct. The point of the thread has been exhausted...so it can only go downhill from here. I don't want people just making posts based on the title (happes after a a dozen or so pages of posts).

Locked.