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prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 11:58 AM
You obviously didn't read that entire article. It explains why viruses don't do the same amount of damage in Linux that they do in Windows - also explains why Linux viruses fizzle out quickly. Targeting the Linux OS doesn't do much good because of the way Linux is built - writing viruses for Linux is pretty much a waste of time. If Linux were to dominate the computer market tomorrow, we still would not see the number of viruses in Linux that have always plagued Windows.. and that article explains why.
I suggest a google search for Apache Slammer. Don't forget viruses do not target an OS they target something running atop of an OS.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 12:11 PM
Hmm interesting, I got a friend running Slack and she claims there is no package management, since I never used Slack I just went by her words :)

http://www.slackware-advocacy.org/myths.html#PACKAGE

If she's unaware of this you should definently tell her.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 12:17 PM
I suggest a google search for Apache Slammer. Don't forget viruses do not target an OS they target something running atop of an OS.

There is no protection against sloppy administrators or stupid users.


For example, after hitting the Net in September 2002, the Slammer worm infected 30,000 Apache servers ? flooding their Internet connections with worm-related traffic. But six weeks before Slammer, ASF had encouraged all Apache users to fix the vulnerability that this worm would later exploit. Clearly, at least 30,000 Webmasters didn't follow their advice.

Zotova
January 13th, 2006, 12:34 PM
We DO have a standard. Debs. They are all over the net.

No they aren't though and that's the problem.

Apps which imho are key apps just don't have deb files easily available. Firefox for example, 1.5.0.1 will be out shortly and Ubuntu will then be two versions behind - what do you have to do if you want to be up-to-date? Use some howto or other obscure way.

Whilst it may not be feasible to expect Mozilla to produce a deb specifically for ubuntu someone with the knowledge could create a Firefox 1.5.0.1 deb which installs so not to cause problems (ehpipiniy etc). Then that deb could be sent to someone at Mozilla and it could be requested that this deb could be listed under the other os section or somewhere on the Mozilla site. That way users could go out and find debs for key apps and they could be installed as easy as exe's.

The same goes for open office 2.0.1 - you have to use alien to create the debs and so on and so forth. People already go to the hassle of creating these debs so why not see if the open office team would allow community created debs to be hosted on their servers for k/ubuntu systems.


With the next release we will have a GUI way to install them (which will make them equal to an exein most respects).

About time. I'm surprised someone hasn't tried to claim that is 'dumbing' Linux down :rolleyes:


in kubuntu dapper, installing a deb is as wasy as

1)rightclick
2)install

It should be as easy as double click.

23meg
January 13th, 2006, 12:39 PM
Concerning the original post: I read a lot of articles dealing with the new X stuff, Gnome's Dashboard and KDE's Plasma, among other things and frankly, seeing the kind of innovation people can deliver when they aren't under an obligation to sell n copies of their software, not just Windows but the whole proprietary desktop world seems left behind.

At the end of the day it all comes down to what you choose to believe in. I choose not to believe in the crap computer magazines keep pumping to keep people buying new MS software and therefore new hardware, to keep the status quo of the industry and justify their own existence, in turn bringing the proprietary industry to the state it is in today. I choose to believe in FOSS and help it outperform its proprietary counterparts in every possible aspect, and in doing so the practices of the proprietary world seem left behind to me.

nocturn
January 13th, 2006, 12:43 PM
It should be as easy as double click.

I disagree and I would like to never ever see Linux packages being executable.
A package should be opened by a package manager which then installs it cleanly.

Clicking a package could however open it in the package manager (after input o f your password).

23meg
January 13th, 2006, 12:49 PM
Apps which imho are key apps just don't have deb files easily available. Firefox for example, 1.5.0.1 will be out shortly and Ubuntu will then be two versions behind - what do you have to do if you want to be up-to-date? Use some howto or other obscure way.

Whilst it may not be feasible to expect Mozilla to produce a deb specifically for ubuntu someone with the knowledge could create a Firefox 1.5.0.1 deb which installs so not to cause problems (ehpipiniy etc). Then that deb could be sent to someone at Mozilla and it could be requested that this deb could be listed under the other os section or somewhere on the Mozilla site. That way users could go out and find debs for key apps and they could be installed as easy as exe's.

Read the Firefox 1.5 Backport thread to learn why it isn't available as deb. Infrastructural issues. This won't change, period. However, there's always community support that makes thing easier for greens and that's the beauty of Linux. Heard of Automatix? If you aren't willing to follow a five step copy and paste howto, use it. Click click.


About time. I'm surprised someone hasn't tried to claim that is 'dumbing' Linux down We already have more than one GUI deb installer, we've had them for a long time actually. I've used one with Hoary, and then abandoned it. The point is that debs usually have dependencies and shouldn't be expected and generally accepted to work as "click and go" installers. The Debian package format isn't and won't be anything like the Windows Installer format, a self contained installer, end of story. Want self contained installers? Look into Klik, Autopackage and elsewhere.


It should be as easy as double click.No it doesn't have to be. Debian packages don't have to work that way; if you ask me, they shouldn't work that way, due to their technical nature. For self-contained double clickers, look into Klik and Autopackage.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 01:39 PM
No they aren't though and that's the problem.

Apps which imho are key apps just don't have deb files easily available. Firefox for example, 1.5.0.1 will be out shortly and Ubuntu will then be two versions behind - what do you have to do if you want to be up-to-date? Use some howto or other obscure way.

You want to be up to date, use dapper, it has had 1.5.0 for a long time now.


Whilst it may not be feasible to expect Mozilla to produce a deb specifically for ubuntu someone with the knowledge could create a Firefox 1.5.0.1 deb which installs so not to cause problems (ehpipiniy etc). Then that deb could be sent to someone at Mozilla and it could be requested that this deb could be listed under the other os section or somewhere on the Mozilla site. That way users could go out and find debs for key apps and they could be installed as easy as exe's.

If you really NEED Firefox latest version you can get it, chances are you won't need it.


The same goes for open office 2.0.1 - you have to use alien to create the debs and so on and so forth. People already go to the hassle of creating these debs so why not see if the open office team would allow community created debs to be hosted on their servers for k/ubuntu systems.

O RLY? OO.org 2.0.1 is in the Dapper repos.




About time. I'm surprised someone hasn't tried to claim that is 'dumbing' Linux down :rolleyes:

Nobody will say that here (this isn't a Debian forum ;)), some will still prefer commandline though.


It should be as easy as double click.

Why? Because that's how it works in windows? Does Ubuntu have to be like windows for you to like it, if so i have a hot tip for you.

DigitalDuality
January 13th, 2006, 02:50 PM
If you really NEED Firefox latest version you can get it, chances are you won't need it.

If you want to use just one plug-in not written for your version, then it becomes a pretty big want, and when a software upgraade has security patches built into it, and it's a wide-spread and heavily used app, i feel that's pretty important need.


Why? Because that's how it works in windows? Does Ubuntu have to be like windows for you to like it, if so i have a hot tip for you.


I'm not a big fan of Linux becoming more linux like. I am a fan of Linux becoming more user friendly so Joe-six pack can use it.

You all said this particular distro was made so those who couldn't afford a computer could have one. There's plenty of Joe-6packs that don't have 2 dimes to rub together. If more people switch to linux, maybe companies will see the benefit of the open source model and start contributing. I personally would love to see Linux, or open source in general change the way companies do business. Maybe i'm being idealistic or something. I dunno.

DigitalDuality
January 13th, 2006, 02:57 PM
You obviously didn't read that entire article. It explains why viruses don't do the same amount of damage in Linux that they do in Windows - also explains why Linux viruses fizzle out quickly. Targeting the Linux OS doesn't do much good because of the way Linux is built - writing viruses for Linux is pretty much a waste of time. If Linux were to dominate the computer market tomorrow, we still would not see the number of viruses in Linux that have always plagued Windows.. and that article explains why.
That is the mentality i see quite often in both linux and Mac crowds. and as long as these are minority used OSs that's fine. But i think undermining human innovation (for good or bad), is a bit too cocky.

23meg
January 13th, 2006, 03:01 PM
If you want to use just one plug-in not written for your version, then it becomes a pretty big want, and when a software upgraade has security patches built into it, and it's a wide-spread and heavily used app, i feel that's pretty important need.Three ways to install Firefox 1.5 before it's backported in Breezy:

- Can you follow a six step copy and paste guide that takes five minutes to go through at most? Use this (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FirefoxNewVersion).

- You can't, or don't want to? Use Automatix (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=77). Click click.

- You don't like Automatix? There's an autopackage (http://www.wildgardenseed.com/Taj/autopackage/) of Firefox 1.5 available. Again, click click.

You can't do any of these? Then you couldn't install Firefox 1.5 for Windows or MacOS either. Get someone to install it for you, or bear with 1.07.

Stormy Eyes
January 13th, 2006, 03:14 PM
Well, ok. Linux needs the game to get the masses :)

Judging from the "Linux sucks, I'm going back to Windows" threads I've seen, games aren't going to help. Some people are so used to Windows that they'd be better off sticking to the devil they know.


Great attitude.. :) That will not realise everyones dream of solving Bug #1.

Everyone's dream? It's not my dream. Frankly, I think it'd be better of Unix remained the underdog; if it became dominant it might very well stagnate.


Don't you want Linux to take over as the leading operative system?

I don't particularly care one way or the other. Again, I suspect that if Linux did dominate, it would stagnate. I think Unix needs an "Evil Empire" just to serve as inspiration for further development.

Kerberos
January 13th, 2006, 03:42 PM
For me its the 'show stopper' bugs that need to be fixed.

These include (I've been using Ubuntu on my laptop for about a week now)...

Open With on FireFox just points at / - which doesn't help finding applications as the Linux FS is 'complicated' (to put it mildly - I cant find where the programs are stored). Also theres no obvious way I could find of permenantly changing file associations - totem still wants to play everything despite the fact i've not seen it manage to open a single bit of multimedia, so its right-click, open with, rather than double click.

I also found synaptic annoying some of the time - there was quite a lot of unnecessary hoop jumping and fiddling with repo's to get things installed. That and it doesn't always add a shortcut to the program menu which means you have to find it in the FS to run it (which isn't ideal).

Of course your just going to call me a troll again but I dont see how anything would be lost by making the above less problematic. I was wanting to listen to internet radio last night but the default association in FF didn't play it, and I couldn't be bothered looking for a howto at 1am just to locate a program on the hard disk.

Not that any of this matters but if large scale adoption of Ubuntu is something you would like, it should.

Stormy Eyes
January 13th, 2006, 03:46 PM
I have no less than 4 pc's that are all good enough to play the latest games, why would i buy a console too?

Do what you will. I've tried PC gaming, and found it overrated, so I stick with consoles. Being a console gamer, I've got no sympathy for PC gamers; my attitude is: "Stop griping and set up dual boot. Games don't matter that friggin' much."

GeneralZod
January 13th, 2006, 04:01 PM
Open With on FireFox just points at / - which doesn't help finding applications as the Linux FS is 'complicated' (to put it mildly - I cant find where the programs are stored). Also theres no obvious way I could find of permenantly changing file associations - totem still wants to play everything despite the fact i've not seen it manage to open a single bit of multimedia, so its right-click, open with, rather than double click.

Generally speaking, just typing the name of the app should do the trick; e.g. "firefox". I agree though that Firefox and Thunderbird need more integration into GNOME/ KDE; for example, KDE provides its own "Open With" dialog that lists all installed apps as they appear in the (ahem) "Start" menu, and I assume GNOME does the same - if Firefox used these dialogs, it would be much nicer. As it is, Firefox and Thunderbird stick out like a sore thumb on the Linux desktop, IMO.



I also found synaptic annoying some of the time - there was quite a lot of unnecessary hoop jumping and fiddling with repo's to get things installed. That and it doesn't always add a shortcut to the program menu which means you have to find it in the FS to run it (which isn't ideal).


This annoys me too, but to nitpick - this is the "fault" of whoever packaged the application, not synaptic. If an app doesn't contain an Ubuntu menu entry, the best thing to do is file a bug report on that specific app, as it's not going to get fixed otherwise.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 04:03 PM
Do what you will. I've tried PC gaming, and found it overrated, so I stick with consoles. Being a console gamer, I've got no sympathy for PC gamers; my attitude is: "Stop griping and set up dual boot. Games don't matter that friggin' much."

Do you have the same attitude when people complain about lack of support for other software on Linux?

As i said, i don't play games, but it's nice that my son can invite his friends and have a lan party if he wants to so i do what you have recommended here, it would still be nice if i didn't have to buy four licences of XP pro to do this though.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 04:12 PM
If you want to use just one plug-in not written for your version, then it becomes a pretty big want, and when a software upgraade has security patches built into it, and it's a wide-spread and heavily used app, i feel that's pretty important need.

Then use it, it's in the dapper repos like i said.



I'm not a big fan of Linux becoming more linux like. I am a fan of Linux becoming more user friendly so Joe-six pack can use it.

User friendly != more windows like, at least not in the Linux world. Personally i think Joe-six pack should keep using Windows if he likes that better instead of expecting Linux to adapt to him and becomin a bad windows copy cat.


You all said this particular distro was made so those who couldn't afford a computer could have one. There's plenty of Joe-6packs that don't have 2 dimes to rub together. If more people switch to linux, maybe companies will see the benefit of the open source model and start contributing. I personally would love to see Linux, or open source in general change the way companies do business. Maybe i'm being idealistic or something. I dunno.

You don't really know what you are talking about though because guess what, MOST bigger IT companies contribute to the FOSS community. It's not about making it into something Joe-six pack wants it to be because he can use windows and be happy with that, its about providing an alternative, a better alternative.

It's software, i don't care for the ideas behind FSF or the whole "information wants to be free, equality to all, love peace and Linux" bits, i use and like Linux because it's simply a better system and FOSS is a better development system than CS.

poofyhairguy
January 13th, 2006, 04:15 PM
As i said, i don't play games, but it's nice that my son can invite his friends and have a lan party if he wants to so i do what you have recommended here, it would still be nice if i didn't have to buy four licences of XP pro to do this though.

Then don't. Play an ID or Epic game that has a Linux port.

Support companies that support you. Its simple.

poofyhairguy
January 13th, 2006, 04:16 PM
No they aren't though and that's the problem.

Apps which imho are key apps just don't have deb files easily available. Firefox for example, 1.5.0.1 will be out shortly and Ubuntu will then be two versions behind - what do you have to do if you want to be up-to-date? Use some howto or other obscure way.


Thats because of problems with Gecko, not problems with Ubuntu.

Stormy Eyes
January 13th, 2006, 04:20 PM
Do you have the same attitude when people complain about lack of support for other software on Linux?

I have a little more sympathy for graphics people who want Photoshop on Linux without having to **** around with WINE, and sometimes I miss WordPerfect. Gamers? Screw 'em.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 04:23 PM
For me its the 'show stopper' bugs that need to be fixed.

These include (I've been using Ubuntu on my laptop for about a week now)...

Open With on FireFox just points at / - which doesn't help finding applications as the Linux FS is 'complicated' (to put it mildly - I cant find where the programs are stored). Also theres no obvious way I could find of permenantly changing file associations - totem still wants to play everything despite the fact i've not seen it manage to open a single bit of multimedia, so its right-click, open with, rather than double click.

Actually, the *nix file system is a helluvalot easier than any windows file system, just go to /usr/bin and you'll find all the binaries for the programs you want to use, for example, /usr/bin/bittorrent. Just because you don't know that doesn't make it 'complicated' (i find it harder to find the executable in windows, why can't they just put all executables in one folder as in *nix so you only have one place to look for them in?). Now you know and you won't have to think about that any more.

Yes there is, i'm not in gnome right now so i can't tell you exactly how to do it but it's there, under the settings. Totem-Gstreamer is borked, apt-get totem-xine.


I also found synaptic annoying some of the time - there was quite a lot of unnecessary hoop jumping and fiddling with repo's to get things installed. That and it doesn't always add a shortcut to the program menu which means you have to find it in the FS to run it (which isn't ideal).

I agree on that.


Of course your just going to call me a troll again but I dont see how anything would be lost by making the above less problematic. I was wanting to listen to internet radio last night but the default association in FF didn't play it, and I couldn't be bothered looking for a howto at 1am just to locate a program on the hard disk.

Well, now you know how to do it, so no more complaints about that i hope?


Not that any of this matters but if large scale adoption of Ubuntu is something you would like, it should.

I seriously couldn't care less about those users using Ubuntu or not, in fact i'd prefer it if they didn't.

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 04:24 PM
There is no protection against sloppy administrators or stupid users.
No doubt, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it IS possible to get viruses on Linux and that they will be fairly persistant. The hole MS Slammer used had a patch available over a month before the virus came out.

Open With on FireFox just points at / - which doesn't help finding applications as the Linux FS is 'complicated' (to put it mildly - I cant find where the programs are stored).
/usr/bin

Also theres no obvious way I could find of permenantly changing file associations - totem still wants to play everything despite the fact i've not seen it manage to open a single bit of multimedia, so its right-click, open with, rather than double click.
In Nautilus, on the file Right Click>Properties>Open With there you will have a choice of apps, same way you do in Windows actually....

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 04:27 PM
Then don't. Play an ID or Epic game that has a Linux port.

Support companies that support you. Its simple.

I have written that exact thing before and if it was up to me alone then no, it would't be an issue, but since it's not up to me it's not all that simple.

SuperDiscoMachine V.5.7-3
January 13th, 2006, 04:28 PM
Also theres no obvious way I could find of permenantly changing file associations - totem still wants to play everything despite the fact i've not seen it manage to open a single bit of multimedia, so its right-click, open with, rather than double click.

Right click -> preferences -> open with

Really, really, incredibly hard, you are soooooo right....

P.S.: And as you insist on it. Calling the things you mentioned "show stoppers" makes you a troll. ;-D

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 04:30 PM
Why does everyone assume that Joe Sixpack would have issue using Linux? I have been around plenty computer illiterates that cannot use Windows for the life of them they could care less what OS is installed as long as it came with their comp. You have to realize that ANY of us on this forum who came from Windows have spent years upon years learning how to use it, which makes it alot harder for us to run ANY OTHER OS since we have settled into a certain mindset. My mother (who is as dumb in computers as I am in applying make up) had no problem getting phone numbers out of my Thunderbird address book on my Ubuntu laptop. She NEVER even seen Thunderbird she uses Outlook on my dad's machine.

commodore
January 13th, 2006, 04:31 PM
LOL the thread got so big! Sorry that I made you sad (I think it happened). I didn't even read the thread through. It's too big for me.

Do you people know that in Windows Vista OpenGL won't be fully supported? Game producers have a problem then. They have to choose between making a bit worse games for Windows or good games for other OS's that support OpenGL. I hope more games will now be made for Linux. And do you know that Playstation 3 has Linux installed by default? I think that helps Linux gaming too.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 04:31 PM
I have a little more sympathy for graphics people who want Photoshop on Linux without having to **** around with WINE, and sometimes I miss WordPerfect. Gamers? Screw 'em.

Let them use OSX or Windows then, it's not harder than that.

I don't do graphics so screw 'em.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 04:34 PM
No doubt, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it IS possible to get viruses on Linux and that they will be fairly persistant. The hole MS Slammer used had a patch available over a month before the virus came out.

Actually that was pretty much my point, that there is no protection against sloppy administrators or stupid users regardless of which system you run.[/quote]

Zotova
January 13th, 2006, 04:35 PM
Thats because of problems with Gecko, not problems with Ubuntu.

It still makes ubuntu look bad though as things simply break when replacing one program.

Also imho it is not a gecko problem, it is a epiphany problem (or any other program based on gecko). Epiphany - the browser is badly made full stop imho, it shouldn't rely on Firefox and should include the code it needs within the download. That way Firefox could be modified and it wouldn't effect epiphany's what-so-ever as epiphany would have a separate version of gecko to run from.


You want to be up to date, use dapper, it has had 1.5.0 for a long time now.

Dapper being unstable, why should I have to use an unstable os just go get a new program? - I shouldn't full stop.


chances are you won't need it.

Yes, because I really like having 1.0.7 crashing on me every time I open a few large pictures.


O RLY? OO.org 2.0.1 is in the Dapper repos.

Again, why should I have to use unstable. How is this easy to find for newbies, it isn't full stop.


Nobody will say that here (this isn't a Debian forum ;)), some will still prefer commandline though.

That attitude is present throughout this topic, as it is many other topics.


Does Ubuntu have to be like windows for you to like it, if so i have a hot tip for you.

That's the reply to everything around here, something doesn't work, "go and use windows then, we don't want you". Basically what is being said is we can't take criticism and would like to think Linux is perfect, when the reality is it is far from it.

poofyhairguy
January 13th, 2006, 04:44 PM
It still makes ubuntu look bad though as things simply break when replacing one program.

Also imho it is not a gecko problem, it is a epiphany problem (or any other program based on gecko). Epiphany - the browser is badly made full stop imho, it shouldn't rely on Firefox and should include the code it needs within the download. That way Firefox could be modified and it wouldn't effect epiphany's what-so-ever as epiphany would have a separate version of gecko to run from.


yeah I know. But that means its a gecko problem. Mozilla has to seperate Gecko from Firefox- Ubuntu can't and still call it Firefox.

And for the record...no one says Ubuntu is perfect. We DO say that Ubuntu has a specific target market (aka those who only need new software every six months) so if we blow you off its because you are trying to blame Ubuntu for something it is not. From the start it was never meant to have new versions of applications as they release. You might think that is dumb, but its a central part of Ubuntu.

And its not going to change. Its a core part of what kind of distro it is. Thats why if you want it the best advice we can give you is "use a distro that gives you what you want." Ubuntu is made for those that don't need new software the month it comes out....aka most users in the world.

(can't tell you how many people still use Windows 98).

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 04:47 PM
That's the reply to everything around here, something doesn't work, "go and use windows then, we don't want you". Basically what is being said is we can't take criticism and would like to think Linux is perfect, when the reality is it is far from it.
You are quite wrong, no one thinks Ubuntu is perfect the way it is, there is room for improvement, there is ALWAYS room for improvement. We just don't find the problems you list as being overly important, there are other things that need to be fixed/implemented before that.

It still makes ubuntu look bad though as things simply break when replacing one program.

Also imho it is not a gecko problem, it is a epiphany problem (or any other program based on gecko). Epiphany - the browser is badly made full stop imho, it shouldn't rely on Firefox and should include the code it needs within the download. That way Firefox could be modified and it wouldn't effect epiphany's what-so-ever as epiphany would have a separate version of gecko to run from.

It's not just Epiphany many things depend on the Gecko engine, which is why there isn't gonna be a backport. However it makes Ubuntu look it can't be helped Mozilla scrapped their standalone Gecko project because they had other priorities so we are stuck with w/e they provided. If you don't like the way Ubuntu works you might want to look into other distros. There is a certain method to our madness, Ubuntu tries to give you the most stable and integrated system possible. That precludes the bleeding edge things from being implemented. Things have to be thoroughly tested first to make sure they break nothing. There are other distros that don't care.
If you want Firefox 1.5 go to the Backport thread about it, there is a script there that works very well (I used it and have FF1.5 running with full plug ins). Open Office comes with a .bin installer so if you want the newest version go right ahead. You don't have to use things from the repos you can install them yourself no one will stop you, but things in repos have been made sure to work with all the other stuff.

SuperDiscoMachine V.5.7-3
January 13th, 2006, 04:49 PM
It still makes ubuntu look bad though as things simply break when replacing one program.
No, it doesn't really. Programs break on any OS when you change crucial components like libraries.



Also imho it is not a gecko problem, it is a epiphany problem (or any other program based on gecko). Epiphany - the browser is badly made full stop imho, it shouldn't rely on Firefox and should include the code it needs within the download. That way Firefox could be modified and it wouldn't effect epiphany's what-so-ever as epiphany would have a separate version of gecko to run from.
Well, let's say it really is a very humble opinion. That epiphany can use gecko is great and indeed one of the greatest advantages of open source software. That the gecko engine right now isn't available as a stand alone lib is the problem.



Dapper being unstable, why should I have to use an unstable os just go get a new program? - I shouldn't full stop.

You shouldn't, you are right. But then again, why not use an other distro that are much better in giving you newer software for stable releases? Suse and Fedora come to mind as examples.



Yes, because I really like having 1.0.7 crashing on me every time I open a few large pictures.

See above. And to be fair, all you have to do to use the newer firefox is extract an archive, not really hard, is it?



Again, why should I have to use unstable. How is this easy to find for newbies, it isn't full stop.

Again, see above, or simply do it the semi-official way and add the following to your source list:
deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/OOo2 ./



That's the reply to everything around here, something doesn't work, "go and use windows then, we don't want you".

From my experience, this simply isn't true.



Basically what is being said is we can't take criticism and would like to think Linux is perfect, when the reality is it is far from it.
I have to say it again, there is no we. BSDFread speaks for himself, certainly not for me.

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 04:52 PM
can't tell you how many people still use Windows 9x

According to NetApplications as of November 2005 market share of Win9x (98+Me) is 6.77%
Source: http://www.fcenter.ru/online.shtml?softnews/2005/12/31#material_id=16123 (it's a Russian site but statistics are fairly easy to read).
Incidentally OS X had a market share of 4.11% and Other OS's (*nix) 1.38%

Kerberos
January 13th, 2006, 04:56 PM
Right click -> preferences -> open with

Really, really, incredibly hard, you are soooooo right....

P.S.: And as you insist on it. Calling the things you mentioned "show stoppers" makes you a troll. ;-D
An 'always use this program' checkbox on right click->open with wouldn't go amiss then. It seems a bit unintuitive to have that setting in a completely different place.

The firefox 'open with' should also really match the right click 'open with' in nautilus as its much more intuitive having a list of installed software rather than than just the root of the drive - a newbie could easily figure it out given a program list, but not when presented with the filesystem. That is what I mean by show stopper, something that a casual user couldn't easily figure out themselves and can easily be avoided (and has been - nautilus does it right).

Also, no matter how many times I toggle off 'show hidden files' its turned on again whenever I open a folder. :(

TeeAhr1
January 13th, 2006, 04:59 PM
the thing is that Windows/Mac is more user friendly. Windows do not have to be very unstable. The masses (and me) seems to think that it's just fine with a BSOD now and then. :)
I think you confuse "user-friendly" with "the ability to perform (extraordinarily simple) tasks without having to know what the hell you're doing." I do not equate these two things, and I don't think the latter is even neccessarily a good thing. An idiot interface will help you, at most, for the first three months or so of your computing experience. A more comprehensive interface (such as Ubuntu's), where the simple stuff's a click away but you still have the ability to go deep into your system, will help you forever; it really is good for life.

To speak to your second point (about the BSOD), well, if you're fine with it, what's the problem? Honestly, it sounds like you don't really want Linux, you want Windows without the flaws. And you can have that, if you're willing to put the time, effort, and money into it. Download Firefox or Opera, and use it exclusively. Get a good anti-virus package, a solid anti-spyware utility. Learn to keep the reg...regis...keep that thing it has clean. I ran Windows at home for ten years, and I have never once had a virus or a hard drive crash or any such thing. But eventually, it just became not worth the effort for me.

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 05:02 PM
The firefox 'open with' should also really match the right click 'open with' in nautilus as its much more intuitive having a list of installed software rather than than just the root of the drive - a newbie could easily figure it out given a program list, but not when presented with the filesystem. That is what I mean by show stopper, something that a casual user couldn't easily figure out themselves and can easily be avoided (and has been - nautilus does it right).
That's a Firefox issue I'd imagine maybe we should post a bug report to them.

Also, no matter how many times I toggle off 'show hidden files' its turned on again whenever I open a folder.
This is a weird one the only thing I suggest (if you haven't yet) is System>Preferences>File Management and uncheck it there.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 05:04 PM
It still makes ubuntu look bad though as things simply break when replacing one program.

Also imho it is not a gecko problem, it is a epiphany problem (or any other program based on gecko). Epiphany - the browser is badly made full stop imho, it shouldn't rely on Firefox and should include the code it needs within the download. That way Firefox could be modified and it wouldn't effect epiphany's what-so-ever as epiphany would have a separate version of gecko to run from.



Dapper being unstable, why should I have to use an unstable os just go get a new program? - I shouldn't full stop.

Then you have made that choice, it's all about choices, some would argue that when a release is made it's released, it won't get updated except for security patches, if it did, guess what.. It wouldn't be stable any more. You want your cake and eat it too but it can't be done.




Yes, because I really like having 1.0.7 crashing on me every time I open a few large pictures.

Never had that problem myself.




Again, why should I have to use unstable. How is this easy to find for newbies, it isn't full stop.

It is, if the newbie isn't a complete moron, the information is out there, it's not hidden.




That attitude is present throughout this topic, as it is many other topics.

No it isn't, nobody is complaining about anyone wanting there to be a gui, but you don't want that, you want it to be windows and it isn't and will never be.




That's the reply to everything around here, something doesn't work, "go and use windows then, we don't want you". Basically what is being said is we can't take criticism and would like to think Linux is perfect, when the reality is it is far from it.

No, either you are ignorant by choice or you are just ignorant if that is what you read. The point is that just because something doesn't work the way it does in windows doesn't mean that it is broken, if you prefer the way windows works then WHY use Linux and complain that it isn't Windows?

And it's true, i don't care what you use, do you care that i prefer the BSD's over both Windows and Ubuntu? Nobody else here does so why should you? I won't complain about Ubuntu not being just like *BSD though, if i did i'd expect someone to tell me to use *BSD instead.

BSDFreak
January 13th, 2006, 05:08 PM
An 'always use this program' checkbox on right click->open with wouldn't go amiss then. It seems a bit unintuitive to have that setting in a completely different place.

The firefox 'open with' should also really match the right click 'open with' in nautilus as its much more intuitive having a list of installed software rather than than just the root of the drive - a newbie could easily figure it out given a program list, but not when presented with the filesystem. That is what I mean by show stopper, something that a casual user couldn't easily figure out themselves and can easily be avoided (and has been - nautilus does it right).

Well, it's a problem with Firefox and there is nothing anyone but the Mozilla team can do about it (iow, this is something you should take up with them), if it annoys you, use Epiphany, it is fully integrated with Gnome and will work the way you want it.


Also, no matter how many times I toggle off 'show hidden files' its turned on again whenever I open a folder. :(

I hope you have reported this bug, if you haven't then you are part of the problem.

Kerberos
January 13th, 2006, 05:15 PM
That's a Firefox issue I'd imagine maybe we should post a bug report to them.
The distro says 'Ubuntu' on the box so I think its their responsibility to make sure everything works well together.

This is a weird one the only thing I suggest (if you haven't yet) is System>Preferences>File Management and uncheck it there.
That works, ta. I guess theres a bug report in there somewhere.

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 05:21 PM
The distro says 'Ubuntu' on the box so I think its their responsibility to make sure everything works well together.
That's asking a bit much don't you think? There are many unintegrated apps even in the monolithic world of Windows.

Stormy Eyes
January 13th, 2006, 05:25 PM
The distro says 'Ubuntu' on the box so I think its their responsibility to make sure everything works well together.

So, report it on Ubuntu's bugzilla. They'll send it upstream if they have to.

Kerberos
January 13th, 2006, 05:28 PM
I hope you have reported this bug, if you haven't then you are part of the problem.

A: I've only just noticed it.
B: I was thinking about sending a bug report but...
C: I am astounded if I am the first person to have had this problem.

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 05:33 PM
A: I've only just noticed it.
B: I was thinking about sending a bug report but...
C: I am astounded if I am the first person to have had this problem.
Never had that problem to tell you the truth, I don't use Nautilus anymore anyway.

Mr_Grieves
January 13th, 2006, 05:42 PM
OOOooh. Alot of comments on what I wrote. I guess I'll summerize it with.
You guys are saying alot of good things, I agree with much of what you're saying.

I though think that the worlds Linux distros need to make some users to switch OS. The people that cannot afford software, a computer and etcetera are in greater need of other things I think. I one time passionatly licked my Ubuntu CD after install, and it did not seem to substitute things like food, water, warm apartment, good job, etc, wich I think those people need before thier to become Ubuntu fans.

I still can't stop thinking that Ubuntu has gotten so big, in so little time, due to it's ease of use. More of that and I think Ubuntu would grow even bigger. But sure, I also don't want to loose any controll. The controll issue is one of the reasons why I like Linux.

DigitalDuality
January 13th, 2006, 05:50 PM
Here's a usability issue that i think definately needs to be addressed. THe naming schemes of software.

http://www.xyzcomputing.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=503

SuperDiscoMachine V.5.7-3
January 13th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Here's a usability issue that i think definately needs to be addressed. THe naming schemes of software.

http://www.xyzcomputing.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=503
Oh, please, not that dumb article again.

It's totally irrelevant how applications are named, as long as people can easily find out what they are used for. If you look at the gnome and kde menus, both describe what the purpose of the application is (contrary to the oh so userfriendly windows menu, where the apps are even grouped according to which company made them, how stupid is that?).

So, an absolute non-issue and a pretty dumb article.

23meg
January 13th, 2006, 06:00 PM
I still can't stop thinking that Ubuntu has gotten so big, in so little time, without it's ease of use. More of that and I think Ubuntu would grow even bigger.Ubuntu just shouldn't and won't get any "easier to use" to make ex-Windows users feel more at home. It won't become Windows minus the spyware and viruses. If it did, it would lose most of its users. There are other distros aiming for this.

Kerberos
January 13th, 2006, 06:02 PM
I'd also quite like it if nautlius crashed less than 3 times a day :)

SuperDiscoMachine V.5.7-3
January 13th, 2006, 06:04 PM
Ubuntu just shouldn't and won't get any "easier to use" to make ex-Windows users feel more at home. It won't become Windows minus the spyware and viruses. If it did, it would lose most of its users. There are other distros aiming for this.

Ah, maybe you can finally explain to me what people like you mean ubuntu will not become windows.
First off, what would becoming like windows entail?
Having a graphical way to set up your x-server?
Having a graphical way to edit fstab?

What exactly do you mean by saying it will not and should not become like windows?

SuperDiscoMachine V.5.7-3
January 13th, 2006, 06:05 PM
I'd also quite like it if nautlius crashed less than 3 times a day :)
I'm sure you'll have a hard time believing it again, but I for one don't have this problem.

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 06:11 PM
Kerberos,
You just got all kinds of issues man, are you running Dapper or something? If you want try running gnome-commander instead of Nautilus the only thing is go to the project site dl the latest release (it's gonna be an .rpm) and install with alien. It's nice and lightweight and even has a small command line thingie :)

Kerberos
January 13th, 2006, 06:11 PM
Ubuntu just shouldn't and won't get any "easier to use" to make ex-Windows users feel more at home. It won't become Windows minus the spyware and viruses. If it did, it would lose most of its users. There are other distros aiming for this.
Why is it any thread discussing usability in Linux tries to turn into a 'Its not Windows' thread. Believe me Windows doesn't have the monopoly on usability. Your average Joe public just wants things like discoverability, accessability and intuitiveness given more than just a second thought. He doesn't care about the GPL or software and probably (and imo rightfully) doesn't know the difference between X and the Kernel.

The difference between us and Joe is he doesn't want to learn the intricate workings and most people have very little free time as it is. Its the difference between fast food and a home cooked meal. Both have their place and if Linux is to dominate it needs to change to accept the reality of culture - you cant convert society round to loving it as the geeks do.

I'm not saying it should of course, I am just saying what I reckon it would need to do to make a dent in MS or Apples market share.

Stormy Eyes
January 13th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Here's a usability issue that i think definately needs to be addressed. THe naming schemes of software.

http://www.xyzcomputing.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=503

Last time I checked, GNOME has "Music Player", not Rhythmbox in its menu, and "Movie Player" instead of Totem in its menu. Names are a non-issue.

Kerberos
January 13th, 2006, 06:13 PM
Kerberos,
You just got all kinds of issues man, are you running Dapper or something?
Almost - just need to reboot. :)

Kerberos
January 13th, 2006, 06:16 PM
Last time I checked, GNOME has "Music Player", not Rhythmbox in its menu, and "Movie Player" instead of Totem in its menu. Names are a non-issue.
I think 'Movie Player' is a misleading name for totem as I've never actually seen it play anything yet. :D

23meg
January 13th, 2006, 06:17 PM
Ah, maybe you can finally explain to me what people like you mean ubuntu will not become windows.
First off, what would becoming like windows entail?
Having a graphical way to set up your x-server?
Having a graphical way to edit fstab?

What exactly do you mean by saying it will not and should not become like windows?
I can't speak in the name of "people like me", whoever they are, but what I mean is that Ubuntu won't become a distro that tries to fake the Windows look and feel, to emulate the Windows way of doing things (installing apps, drivers etc.), in short, make Windows users feel at home by delivering a Windows lookalike with a Linux kernel. There are other distros such as Linspire that try to do this, and that's perfectly OK as long as there's interest in it.

cgc
January 13th, 2006, 06:23 PM
I use Mac OS X, Windows XP, Unix, and Linux and can say the single most important thing for most users is software. Linux has a lot of software but getting it installed is difficult. Sure, some is installable via point and click, but not everything (PPC especially). Eye candy wears thin very quickly, but availability of quality software along with ease of installation are what makes Mac OS X and Windows so much easier (better?) for the masses.

Ubuntu Linux is actually slower (feeling, no benchmarks) on my Mac then Tiger 10.4.4.

SuperDiscoMachine V.5.7-3
January 13th, 2006, 06:24 PM
I can't speak in the name of "people like me", whoever they are, but what I mean is that Ubuntu won't become a distro that tries to fake the Windows look and feel, to emulate the Windows way of doing things (installing apps, drivers etc.), in short, make Windows users feel at home by delivering a Windows lookalike with a Linux kernel. There are other distros such as Linspire that try to do this, and that's perfectly OK as long as there's interest in it.

Ah, I see. That explains it and I agree with you.
However, I don't have the impression people are really talking about making Ubuntu a windows look and work-a-like, so I really don't understand why this is brought up so much.

@Kerberos:
apt-get install totem-xine (as has been explained about 600.000 times on the forum already...)

mstlyevil
January 13th, 2006, 06:24 PM
Dapper being unstable, why should I have to use an unstable os just go get a new program? - I shouldn't full stop.


Yes, because I really like having 1.0.7 crashing on me every time I open a few large pictures.


Again, why should I have to use unstable. How is this easy to find for newbies, it isn't full stop.

The problems you are having installing the latest FF 1.5 and OO 2.01 are as easy as installing Automatix. How hard is copying and pasting two commands in the command line and then you have click click click to get those very same packages. You are making things out to be harder than they are. There has been a lot of work done by dedicated people for free to make Ubuntu as easy as possible for new users, yet it is never enough. Why not try and thank these guys and give them a pat on the back for a job well done.

I agree that you should not have to use Dapper to get the latest packages but those same packages are available in Breezy by either editing your sources list or installing Automatix.

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 06:27 PM
I think 'Movie Player' is a misleading name for totem as I've never actually seen it play anything yet. :D
I think that's an issue with defaults, for some reason Ubuntu insists on using Gstreamer instead of Xine back end. w32codecs and totem-xine work awesomely :)

Mr_Grieves
January 13th, 2006, 06:28 PM
Ubuntu just shouldn't and won't get any "easier to use" to make ex-Windows users feel more at home. It won't become Windows minus the spyware and viruses. If it did, it would lose most of its users. There are other distros aiming for this.
I don't understand why Windows must be taken up here. Can't something be easy to use without it copying Windows?

SuperDiscoMachine V.5.7-3
January 13th, 2006, 06:29 PM
I use Mac OS X, Windows XP, Unix, and Linux and can say the single most important thing for most users is software. Linux has a lot of software but getting it installed is difficult. Sure, some is installable via point and click, but not everything (PPC especially). Eye candy wears thin very quickly, but availability of quality software along with ease of installation are what makes Mac OS X and Windows so much easier (better?) for the masses.

Yes, hunting down the software you need on the internet, downloading it by hand, then execute the installer, or unzip it (wait, do I have winzip installed...), then following the installer, then watching as my desktop and taskbar get cluttered with unwanted shortcuts sure is more convenient than opening up gnome-app-install, choose the software I want and click install.
You are right on.

And don't get me started about keeping the software up to date. Now this is really a mess in linux, isn't it. You'll get this little notification icon, click on install updates and _all_ your apps are updated. Now contrast that with windows or OSX, where you have to hunt down updates for every singel app yourself, or maybe just follow the different build-in update procedures of the different apps, if they have one. Now that's convenience!!!1!!1

SuperDiscoMachine V.5.7-3
January 13th, 2006, 06:30 PM
I don't understand why Windows must be taken up here. Can't something be easy to use without it copying Windows?
You are right, something can only be easy to use, if it is not copying windows.

prizrak
January 13th, 2006, 06:31 PM
You are right, something can only be easy to use, if it is not copying windows.
ROFL! Dude you made my day :)

23meg
January 13th, 2006, 06:34 PM
Why is it any thread discussing usability in Linux tries to turn into a 'Its not Windows' thread. Believe me Windows doesn't have the monopoly on usability. Your average Joe public just wants things like discoverability, accessability and intuitiveness given more than just a second thought. He doesn't care about the GPL or software and probably (and imo rightfully) doesn't know the difference between X and the Kernel.

The difference between us and Joe is he doesn't want to learn the intricate workings and most people have very little free time as it is. Its the difference between fast food and a home cooked meal. Both have their place and if Linux is to dominate it needs to change to accept the reality of culture - you cant convert society round to loving it as the geeks do.

I'm not saying it should of course, I am just saying what I reckon it would need to do to make a dent in MS or Apples market share.
I'm not talking about Linux but Ubuntu. Linux is a kernel, whereas Ubuntu is an operating system, which I believe shouldn't compromise its current potential to make the users of some other OS feel more at home, and it has no such tendency in its roadmap anyway.

Linux is a freely available kernel, which people can and do use to make any kind of OS from command line only ones to device embedded ones to total Windows / Mac lookalikes. And they're all OK; there's Linux embedded in my wireless router, Linux in the moving picture billboard displays on the avenues I walk on, Linux in the signaling systems that guide trains I take every day, and Linux at the heart of the OS I use every day, namely Ubuntu. If Joe Average needs a Windows-like OS with a Linux kernel whose inner workings he doesn't care about, it's available; it's just not Ubuntu and isn't going to be.

SteelValor
January 13th, 2006, 06:40 PM
No, the masses don't need these things, they merely want them.


This is no way intended to be a flame SE :) but you've obviously locked yourself away from the general public. ;D

If the general public can mess up an XP install or save a doc to a directory and then can't find that doc, then there is no chance in hell that they're going to a more complex OS. I worked in tech support for 5 years and can say with absolute certainty that the average pc user doesn't even know how to navigate to their My Docs folder from within C: let alone setup their email.
Secondly, a pretty OS will sell to the masses. If they're willing to pay $150USD for a pretty OS instead of using a free OS then there is something wrong/missing with the free OS in the consumers eyes. We must face the fact that Apple & MS have forced us to live in a point and click world. If we don't support that then we will never be considered as a viable OS.

my 2 cents :D

Stormy Eyes
January 13th, 2006, 07:04 PM
This is no way intended to be a flame SE :) but you've obviously locked yourself away from the general public. ;D

This is the same "general public" that made Britney Spears rich and famous, right? Let 'em use Windows. :)

DigitalDuality
January 13th, 2006, 07:19 PM
This is the same "general public" that made Britney Spears rich and famous, right? Let 'em use Windows. :)


No, lets crush the competition (in both realms)

Mr_Grieves
January 13th, 2006, 07:32 PM
This is the same "general public" that made Britney Spears rich and famous, right? Let 'em use Windows. :)
But but.. I like *Britney AND Ubuntu.. :(

* http://www.scandinavianleather.com

Stormy Eyes
January 13th, 2006, 07:35 PM
No, lets crush the competition (in both realms)

Go right ahead, if you can. I'm content to ignore the world as long as it ignores me in turn.

Vlammetje
January 14th, 2006, 07:10 PM
I don't understand why Windows must be taken up here. Can't something be easy to use without it copying Windows?

Because in todays world, 'easy to use' no longer exists. People that have been using Windows for 10 years (= the majority of 'Joe Average PC users') will only find things easy that they expect and/or know how they work.

It's because they've seen autoinstallers and desktop shortcuts for 10 years, that they think those are not only the easiest or best, but even the only way.
It's because their own PC and the PCs of all of their friends and coworkers crash every now and then that they have grown to accept this as natural behaviour.
It's because Windows looks have improved (to some peoples taste anyway) on each 'upgraded version' that they have come to associate the better looks with perceived better functionality.

It is because that is what they're most used to, that they will find any other method hard to learn.

And as a 4-month Windows XP to Ubuntu convert I can honestly say that at least Ubuntu (and definitely not all Linux distros out there) really is easier to use for me..... and the reason it became easier to use is that I'm learning how to do things bity by bit, and because there is this forum full of people who are willing to help me out.

Since I have now grown accustomed to the way things work in Ubuntu, I find Windows not as easy to use as I always did before... more precisely when booting Windows I find I miss things that have become 'normal' and 'easy' and 'convenient' to me in the past 4 months.

Anyway... long boring story to get just one point through: Anybody switching OS's needs to be prepared for differences. Just like anybody driving an automatic car and switching to a 'stick-gear' car will have to get accustomed to shifting gear manually all over again. It is not impossible, it is not even difficult, but it requires you to stop and think consciously for a moment about what you need to do next.... and then it all becomes routine again.
'Ease of use' only exist when people are willing to learn new things in the first place.

Kerberos
January 14th, 2006, 09:12 PM
It's because their own PC and the PCs of all of their friends and coworkers crash every now and then that they have grown to accept this as natural behaviour.
Nautilus crashed 7 times in 3 days. Explorer crashes very infrequently. The last time I saw Windows BSOD was when I added a network card without shutting down (and that was long ago). Quit the FUD thx.

Also I think claiming 'ease of use no longer exists' is naive at best - you can't blame _everything_ on people just being used to Windows - not to mention the fact that most people don't even know how to use Windows properly.

Microsoft and Apple have paid professionals who look and consider every aspect of the OS + software with advice on usability. Sometimes its wrong, and sometimes they dont listen (and sometimes they dont listen to the engineers!), but Linux doesn't, and its things like the network adapter defaulting to 'off + static ip', rather than 'on + dhcp' that really give it away. Usability is about watching what people do and what the frequent problems are, then changing the system to avoid these problems occuring. If 5 people in a row (when watching) all can't achieve a task (or approach it in a wrong way) then perhaps the system needs changing rather than the users need educating. Its all about enabling them to work things out for themselves than to have to rely on forums and howto's. It may not be the Linux way but its the only way it'll hope to beat MS & Apple in marketshare - if thats even your goal.

Kimm
January 14th, 2006, 09:22 PM
On the graphics part, just wait for KDE4 it will rock, I'm a gnome person myself, but when it comes out I will seriouesly consider changing to KDE

Kerberos
January 14th, 2006, 09:49 PM
On the graphics part, just wait for KDE4 it will rock, I'm a gnome person myself, but when it comes out I will seriouesly consider changing to KDE
Nothing a OSX Theme (http://ukdotcafe.com/upload/Screenshot-11.png) can't fix. :D

On another note (as is in the screenie) Synaptic won't load and I dont know why (I dont have apt-get or the other one running!) anyone know?

:(

Mr_Grieves
January 14th, 2006, 09:59 PM
Vlammetje

Exactly.. Ubuntu is easier for you to use. Easy - is something relative. Easy is not equal to Windows.

BSDFreak
January 14th, 2006, 10:30 PM
I don't understand why Windows must be taken up here. Can't something be easy to use without it copying Windows?

The reason is basically because people want it to be easy to use in the sense that it should be as it is in Windows.

Things like double clicking to install a program (as it works in Windows), talk about the 'complicated' *nix file hierarchy (which is way easier than Windows) and other things, and that is just in this thread. What people really find hard in *nix is that it differs from Windows.

It's already easy in *nix, you just don't know how to do it yet.

If people used the time they are using to complain about how hard *nix is to learn how it works in *nix they would realize it's not hard at all, it's just different from what they know.

BSDFreak
January 14th, 2006, 10:41 PM
Nothing a OSX Theme (http://ukdotcafe.com/upload/Screenshot-11.png) can't fix. :D

On another note (as is in the screenie) Synaptic won't load and I dont know why (I dont have apt-get or the other one running!) anyone know?

:(

It's more than the window borders and widgets that differs.

If you are certain that no other program that is using apt is running (like dselect, apt, aptitude etc) then delete /var/lib/dpkg/lock, that's the lock file.

Do NOT delete this file unless you are certain that the process that created it is no longer running. (IOW, reboot before you delete it to be sure).

MechR
January 15th, 2006, 01:37 AM
The reason is basically because people want it to be easy to use in the sense that it should be as it is in Windows.

Things like double clicking to install a program (as it works in Windows), talk about the 'complicated' *nix file hierarchy (which is way easier than Windows) and other things, and that is just in this thread. What people really find hard in *nix is that it differs from Windows.

It's already easy in *nix, you just don't know how to do it yet.

If people used the time they are using to complain about how hard *nix is to learn how it works in *nix they would realize it's not hard at all, it's just different from what they know.Re: file hierarchies, the Windows hierarchy generally uses full words, whereas *nix tends to use three-letter shorthand. Thus it's easier in Windows to guess a folder's purpose from its name.

drizek
January 15th, 2006, 01:54 AM
and hten you have to type out that folders name every time.

and tbh, if you cant memorize what hte folder name stands for, you shouldnt be in there in the first place.

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 02:00 AM
Re: file hierarchies, the Windows hierarchy generally uses full words, whereas *nix tends to use three-letter shorthand. Thus it's easier in Windows to guess a folder's purpose from its name.

No, it isn't, if you know the *nix file hierarchy you know where every program file and every library resides, in Windows a dll for a program can be in the application folder, in the common files folder that lives in three places, in windows, in windows/system32 or in some other folder depending on which application it belongs to.

What files are in c:\Program Files\Common Files\System\msadc, what do they belong to and what do they do?

tikal26
January 15th, 2006, 02:13 AM
There's so many articles about the new Windows Vista. I have read three in magazines and a bit from the internet. Now that Vista is copying Mac so much Windows and Mac OS X will be the most advanced operating systems for their cool software like smart folders, transparent windows, Exposť, Inkwell, Speech and other stuff. Linux seems left behind. And it's hard to do all those programs for Linux because of different distros, window managers, file browsers.
smart folders -saved searches with tenor in the new kde something like that should not be hard to implements
transparent windows- I don;t know about composite in gnome but the guys at novell and kde seem to be working hard at making this possible in the very near future
Expose- kde already has Kompose check http://kompose.berlios.de/ in theri faq section they have some meation to future use of composite.
As you can see if you want a feature in linux since is open source someone would make it fast, but I think that we are moving in a different direction in which we are trying to be creative and insted of following we are starting to come with our own ideas. I don;t know much about what is going on the gnome side but kde is trying to be innovative and they hope to put that with kde 4.0 with projects like plasma, solid, etc. I think that the new linux project are aabout beign innovative is not about catching up but using the strong linux base and moving it to another level.

aysiu
January 15th, 2006, 02:19 AM
Re: file hierarchies, the Windows hierarchy generally uses full words, whereas *nix tends to use three-letter shorthand. Thus it's easier in Windows to guess a folder's purpose from its name. Guessing is usually what gets more Windows users in trouble. "Oh, I wasn't supposed to delete that?"

Azion
January 15th, 2006, 03:08 AM
True, but I think that applies to everything

Kerberos
January 15th, 2006, 03:15 AM
talk about the 'complicated' *nix file hierarchy (which is way easier than Windows)
Windows has 3.

Documents & Settings, Windows and Program Files.

Linux has N.

bin, boot, debootstrap, dev, etc, home, initrd, lib, lost+found, media, mnt, opt, proc, root, sbin, srv, sys, tmp, usr & var

None of which are particularly guessable.

I know what I think is 'easier' :D

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 03:28 AM
Windows has 3.

Documents & Settings, Windows and Program Files.

Linux has N.

bin, boot, debootstrap, dev, etc, home, initrd, lib, lost+found, media, mnt, opt, proc, root, sbin, srv, sys, tmp, usr & var

None of which are particularly guessable.

I know what I think is 'easier' :D
Yeah, that is a great comparison, because the file hierarchy ends there, there are no other folders to remember than those three in a windows environment.

Do you have any knowledge of where the dll's will end up if you install Norton antivirus? Could you tell me where the exe is without looking for it?

In Linux all the application dll's would end up in /usr/lib and the binaries in /usr/bin, THAT is way easier than five dll's in c:\program files\common files\symantec\ five in c:\windows\ five in c:\windows\system32 and some in some other places, then there are other files, the setting files don't land in /etc, no, they are spread out + in the registry, then there are the actual binaries, they aren't in /usr/bin, they are spread out too.

Guess which i think is 'easier' :D

Did deleting that file help with your problem with synaptic?

Kerberos
January 15th, 2006, 03:36 AM
whats /bin and /sbin for then?

and nothing should go in \windows\ unless the programmer is a muppet.

Kerberos
January 15th, 2006, 03:39 AM
Did deleting that file help with your problem with synaptic?
Nope. didn't delete it, sudo version of the command did delete it, but it still gives the same error. This is a fresh install too - I've not run apt-get, synaptic or anything even once yet.

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 03:44 AM
Nope. didn't delete it, sudo version of the command did delete it, but it still gives the same error. This is a fresh install too - I've not run apt-get, synaptic or anything even once yet.

Now THAT is strange since that lock file is what it's looking for when it gives this error message, you can't run apt-get or aptitude either?

Does the file reappear after you have deleted it?

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 03:49 AM
whats /bin and /sbin for then?

and nothing should go in \windows\ unless the programmer is a muppet.

/bin contains commands that may be used by both the system administrator and by users, but which are required when no other filesystems are mounted (e.g. in single user mode). It may also contain commands which are used indirectly by scripts.

/sbin contains binaries essential for booting, restoring, recovering, and/or repairing the system

And no program i am aware of does not install libraries or binaries into the Windows sub hierarchy.

Kerberos
January 15th, 2006, 03:51 AM
Now THAT is strange since that lock file is what it's looking for when it gives this error message, you can't run apt-get or aptitude either?

Does the file reappear after you have deleted it?
It appears (lock) immediatley after giving the same error again. apt-get has super cow powers, but I dont know how to use it past that so I am not sure.

aysiu
January 15th, 2006, 03:52 AM
And no program i am aware of does not install libraries or binaries into the Windows sub hierarchy. Minisoft?

Kerberos
January 15th, 2006, 03:55 AM
And no program i am aware of does not install libraries or binaries into the Windows sub hierarchy.
Most dont - its only the control freak 'brand your desktop' ones that do. \windows\system32 is fair(ish) game for dll's - but \windows isn't. I think the Windows install process (let the program install itself lol) is the worst thing about the OS and its most major failing. You dont ever really want to install (or uninstall) anything as its likely its the last thing you ever do.

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 03:58 AM
Unix file system hierarchy (http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html)

I also tried to find something like that for the Windows file system hierarchy but was unable, probably because there is no real standard of where programs install files to.

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 04:01 AM
Most dont - its only the control freak 'brand your desktop' ones that do. \windows\system32 is fair(ish) game for dll's - but \windows isn't. I think the Windows install process (let the program install itself lol) is the worst thing about the OS and its most major failing. You dont ever really want to install (or uninstall) anything as its likely its the last thing you ever do.

And what about \windows\common files? Or \program files\common files? If you have a windows partition mounted, do a slocate .dll and you'll find that they are so spread out that it's impossible to know what belongs to what and why it's installed in the folder it is.

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 04:02 AM
Minisoft?

I am not aware of Minisoft. ;)

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 04:06 AM
It appears (lock) immediatley after giving the same error again. apt-get has super cow powers, but I dont know how to use it past that so I am not sure.

For a swift upgrade, do this: sudo apt-get update and then sudo apt-get upgrade. see what that says, you'll probably get the same error.

Also, do a ps x | grep dselect and see what output that gives.

Kerberos
January 15th, 2006, 04:09 AM
And what about \windows\common files? Or \program files\common files? If you have a windows partition mounted, do a slocate .dll and you'll find that they are so spread out that it's impossible to know what belongs to what and why it's installed in the folder it is.
I tried to write a rant for some online blog thingy about installers and microsoft but they objected to my use (or over-use) of the word 'retarded' :D

Kerberos
January 15th, 2006, 04:14 AM
For a swift upgrade, do this: sudo apt-get update and then sudo apt-get upgrade. see what that says, you'll probably get the same error.

Also, do a ps x | grep dselect and see what output that gives.
Did the first one, it told me to do dpkg --configure -a which whirred for a bit but it seems to be working now. nice one :)

ubuntu27
January 15th, 2006, 05:45 AM
Ladies and Gentleman, I think you should read this:
http://searchopensource.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid39_gci1134910,00.html

From the page : "Many IT professionals ask me when Linux will finally "make it" on the desktop. How will they know when Linux has made it? What's holding it back? In what ways is Microsoft working behind the scenes to inhibit the adoption of Linux desktops?"

"Why should consumers suffer cost increases to use a free operating system? Why are governments around the world so silent on this matter? Isn't it time for the consumer to be better informed of the graft and corruption in the IT retail industry?"

More on http://searchopensource.techtarget.com/originalContent/0,289142,sid39_gci1134910,00.html

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 05:47 AM
Did the first one, it told me to do dpkg --configure -a which whirred for a bit but it seems to be working now. nice one :)

Excellent! :)

egon spengler
January 15th, 2006, 02:40 PM
I think that we really all need to applaud Kerberos for his/her perseverance and determination to get ubuntu to work. Kerberos has been using ubuntu for a few months now (at least) and has never had anything work to the degree that he/she has never been able to post any remotely positive feedback about ubuntu/Linux. Despite all of this Kerberos has doggedly stuck with with this OS when the majority of us would have given up (I can safely say that if I found ubuntu as unusable as Kerberos does I would have gone back to XP in a shot)

May I be so bold as to enquire Kerberos, what is it that drives you to stick it out with ubuntu when you can find nothing but shortcomings and experience nothing but problems? I think there must be such a thing as an "ubuntu jinx" which destines some unfortunate users to nothing but doom and misery in their dealing with ubuntu. Let's all hope that this ubuntu jinx is lifted from Kerberos becuase he/she clearly is desperate to use ubuntu and struggles on against the weight of unusability so valiantly

Derek Djons
January 15th, 2006, 02:58 PM
Why does Linux have to be in the Spotlight just as Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows? Let's not forget that every product which is focused on making profit needs all the attention it can get.

Linux has two faces, a corporate / enterprise and a Desktop one. Do not make the mistake by thinking that nothing is being done for Linux if it gets down to promotion, advertisement and etc. If you start browsing enterprise website and pages with related content Linux is 'hot topic news'.

But why making so much promotion for Linux on the Desktop market? Do we want to compete against Microsoft and Apple? I don't get it! Every average Linux user knows that Linux never has been made to challenge with excisting Operating Systems. It was started as a hobby project but grew unexpectedly. It's the ultimate Operating System for people who are looking for a totally fine-tuned and a kind of own Open Source OS. Linux has never been made in order to seize away market from Microsoft and Apple. By presenting Linux as an all-good Operating System which can do the same as Windows and Mac OS X, Linux will be doomed to heavy critisizm by dissapointed n00bish Windows users.

That the command-line and die hard editing era is over, the most of us celebrate. But the Linux community should not start a pro-linux campaign in some sort of quest to convert the rest of the people on this planet.

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 03:01 PM
I think that we really all need to applaud Kerberos for his/her perseverance and determination to get ubuntu to work. Kerberos has been using ubuntu for a few months now (at least) and has never had anything work to the degree that he/she has never been able to post any remotely positive feedback about ubuntu/Linux. Despite all of this Kerberos has doggedly stuck with with this OS when the majority of us would have given up (I can safely say that if I found ubuntu as unusable as Kerberos does I would have gone back to XP in a shot)

May I be so bold as to enquire Kerberos, what is it that drives you to stick it out with ubuntu when you can find nothing but shortcomings and experience nothing but problems? I think there must be such a thing as an "ubuntu jinx" which destines some unfortunate users to nothing but doom and misery in their dealing with ubuntu. Let's all hope that this ubuntu jinx is lifted from Kerberos becuase he/she clearly is desperate to use ubuntu and struggles on against the weight of unusability so valiantly

It's users like him that will continue to be users, that don't give up, that learn through trial and error, in a year you'll see him post here helping out others who are going through the same troubles.

This is what makes the FOSS community so great, user contribution.

That's also why i get so frustrated when windows users who do nothing but whine and are unwilling to learn keep complaining and then finally leave with a post saying they are going to go back to XP because Linux doesn't work (that they have spent years learning how XP works and accepted that some programs just won't work at all or that their printer drivers constantly make their printouts too light/dark regardless of how they set it isn't something they even think about).

Of course, we all need some "AHA" moments every now and then not to get discouraged. :)

BSDFreak
January 15th, 2006, 03:09 PM
Why does Linux have to be in the Spotlight just as Mac OS X and Microsoft Windows? Let's not forget that every product which is focused on making profit needs all the attention it can get.

It doesn't but it inevitably will.


Linux has two faces, a corporate / enterprise and a Desktop one. Do not make the mistake by thinking that nothing is being done for Linux if it gets down to promotion, advertisement and etc. If you start browsing enterprise website and pages with related content Linux is 'hot topic news'.

True, no news to me and i'm surprised if it's news to anyone else.


But why making so much promotion for Linux on the Desktop market? Do we want to compete against Microsoft and Apple? I don't get it! Every average Linux user knows that Linux never has been made to challenge with excisting Operating Systems. It was started as a hobby project but grew unexpectedly. It's the ultimate Operating System for people who are looking for a totally fine-tuned and a kind of own Open Source OS. Linux has never been made in order to seize away market from Microsoft and Apple. By presenting Linux as an all-good Operating System which can do the same as Windows and Mac OS X, Linux will be doomed to heavy critisizm by dissapointed n00bish Windows users.

It's good to know that there are others out there who "get it". :)


That the command-line and die hard editing era is over, the most of us celebrate. But the Linux community should not start a pro-linux campaign in some sort of quest to convert the rest of the people on this planet.

Heh, i couldn't live without command line, i usually don't know about the graphical tools because i use command line, the era isn't over anytime soon, it's still the fastest way to do file management and set permissions, and finding a file with slocate will forever be faster than with a graphical tool. ;)

But there are graphical tools for most of it today, good news for those who prefer a gui, having choices is always a good thing. :)

SuperDiscoMachine V.5.7-3
January 15th, 2006, 03:53 PM
I think that we really all need to applaud Kerberos for his/her perseverance and determination to get ubuntu to work. Kerberos has been using ubuntu for a few months now (at least) and has never had anything work to the degree that he/she has never been able to post any remotely positive feedback about ubuntu/Linux. Despite all of this Kerberos has doggedly stuck with with this OS when the majority of us would have given up (I can safely say that if I found ubuntu as unusable as Kerberos does I would have gone back to XP in a shot)

May I be so bold as to enquire Kerberos, what is it that drives you to stick it out with ubuntu when you can find nothing but shortcomings and experience nothing but problems? I think there must be such a thing as an "ubuntu jinx" which destines some unfortunate users to nothing but doom and misery in their dealing with ubuntu. Let's all hope that this ubuntu jinx is lifted from Kerberos becuase he/she clearly is desperate to use ubuntu and struggles on against the weight of unusability so valiantly
Man, you really made my day!
:twisted: =D>

Kerberos
January 15th, 2006, 03:57 PM
May I be so bold as to enquire Kerberos, what is it that drives you to stick it out with ubuntu when you can find nothing but shortcomings and experience nothing but problems?
I hate Windows basically. Its easy to use but its locked down tighter and tighter (product activation, 'genuine advantage', Indian call centres) as well as artificial limits (5 concurrent connections to force you to get server etc). I only see it going downhill. Linux, which I personally consider to be behind has a shot at being something that Windows can never manage - when your focus isn't profit you can truly give people what they want.

I do think the community is far too split on what Linux is for. I get told regularly that it will 'never be easy/user friendly/for joe public' (which considering the nature of the GPL is arrogance at best) or that its 'already there' and no more work needs done, or its hardware manufacturers and Microsofts tactics holding it back.

Computers are a means to an end. For the people here they are an end in themselves but I have been using them for so long now (I run a net cafe) that I actually feel like a user now - I have a job, the computer is a tool and I want to get that job done, and I find that Linux forces me to mess about with things I shouldn't really have to touch (nor want to).

I think the hacker ethic runs far too deep on Linux. The mistake is the belief that people want to tinker with their systems - most dont. I dont like the fact I've got to spend ~15 mins after its booted trying to coax the network into working, that filetypes are associated with programs 'out of the box' that cant and wont ever open them and the fact that few people actually understand usability while most sneer at it as if it involves forcing clippy, bob and removing the CLI (which there is never a reason for).

Oh and Synaptic is broken again. It claims to work, does everything as it should (adding packages) but theres no shortcuts and nothing (new) in /usr/bin/ for clicking.

And I am jinxed. I can kill computers just by looking at them. believe. :)

prizrak
January 15th, 2006, 04:56 PM
LOL @ Kerberos
I agree with Egon tho, you are one persistent dude/dudette I admire that :)

prizrak
January 15th, 2006, 04:58 PM
Computers are a means to an end.
Amen brother, amen. I got a friend who runs Gentoo that seriously can't get that while I am willing to spend a few hours on initial setup I don't wanna deal with my software compiling for 2 hours everytime I update the OS.

drizek
January 15th, 2006, 06:36 PM
lol, same here. i only know one guy that uses linux, and he just HAS to be a gentoo user. when i told him i used suse he looked at me like i was stupid or something.

mstlyevil
January 15th, 2006, 06:38 PM
I hate Windows basically. Its easy to use but its locked down tighter and tighter (product activation, 'genuine advantage', Indian call centres) as well as artificial limits (5 concurrent connections to force you to get server etc). I only see it going downhill. Linux, which I personally consider to be behind has a shot at being something that Windows can never manage - when your focus isn't profit you can truly give people what they want.

I do think the community is far too split on what Linux is for. I get told regularly that it will 'never be easy/user friendly/for joe public' (which considering the nature of the GPL is arrogance at best) or that its 'already there' and no more work needs done, or its hardware manufacturers and Microsofts tactics holding it back.

Computers are a means to an end. For the people here they are an end in themselves but I have been using them for so long now (I run a net cafe) that I actually feel like a user now - I have a job, the computer is a tool and I want to get that job done, and I find that Linux forces me to mess about with things I shouldn't really have to touch (nor want to).

I think the hacker ethic runs far too deep on Linux. The mistake is the belief that people want to tinker with their systems - most dont. I dont like the fact I've got to spend ~15 mins after its booted trying to coax the network into working, that filetypes are associated with programs 'out of the box' that cant and wont ever open them and the fact that few people actually understand usability while most sneer at it as if it involves forcing clippy, bob and removing the CLI (which there is never a reason for).

Oh and Synaptic is broken again. It claims to work, does everything as it should (adding packages) but theres no shortcuts and nothing (new) in /usr/bin/ for clicking.

And I am jinxed. I can kill computers just by looking at them. believe. :)

I have to applaud you for your paitients and persistance. A lot of those bug are specific to Ubuntu. I used Suse 10 for a month and It had a lot less problems with some of these issues. YAST always posted new programs on the menu once I installed them. Also the wireless networking tool is a lot more developed and functional. and it was superior at associating file types properly. As Ubuntu matures and develops, these issues will be worked out and Ubuntu will become as polished and useable as more established distros like Suse. The fact that Ubuntu is as far as it is in just two years is astounding. The future looks bright for this distro and that is why I use it.

drizek
January 15th, 2006, 06:42 PM
mstly, i used suse 10 and ubuntu(breezy/hoary/dapper) on centrino laptops and ive found that the wifi in ubuntu works better. i still cant get suse to get WEP working properly, and i could never figure out how to get it to connect automatically. i had to connect it myself everytime. not to mention ubuntu comes with the firmware and hte wifi works out of the box, whereas i had to download drivers for it for suse, off a random forum.

Bandit
January 15th, 2006, 06:49 PM
Linux Left behind???
What kind of dog poo is this....
If you could see my desktop now you would think VISTA is crap...
This is not a flame.. Just thought this was a silly post.. LOL.. :D

mstlyevil
January 15th, 2006, 06:55 PM
mstly, i used suse 10 and ubuntu(breezy/hoary/dapper) on centrino laptops and ive found that the wifi in ubuntu works better. i still cant get suse to get WEP working properly, and i could never figure out how to get it to connect automatically. i had to connect it myself everytime. not to mention ubuntu comes with the firmware and hte wifi works out of the box, whereas i had to download drivers for it for suse, off a random forum.

I never said that Suse did not have it's bugs. Most people I have talked to that have tried both OS's have had better luck with hardware issues in Suse including wireless support. I understand that sometimes Suse will fail on a hardware issue that Ubuntu will properly detect and configure and vice versa. I was making a point that Ubuntu has come a long way in a very short amount of time. Suse also has some of the little annoying things ironed out that Ubuntu still has a problem with. I expect these issues to be ironed out of Ubuntu in the next year considering how far it has come. Even as bloated as Suse is it just can not come with every driver for every wireless configuration known to man. Ubuntu just happens to carry drivers that Suse left out and Suse has some that are left out of Ubuntu. But overall people generally have better luck with hardware issues with Suse.

betamax
January 15th, 2006, 06:56 PM
Umm i think its more the case of microsoft trying to catch up with everyone else.

for example;
KDE's had transparent menus for ages now, but in vista its "WOW" look !!!

vista will offer great eyecandy, but to enjoy it you'll need to upgrade your entire system.

Bandit
January 15th, 2006, 07:10 PM
I never said that Suse did not have it's bugs. Most people I have talked to that have tried both OS's have had better luck with hardware issues in Suse including wireless support. I understand that sometimes Suse will fail on a hardware issue that Ubuntu will properly detect and configure and vice versa. I was making a point that Ubuntu has come a long way in a very short amount of time. Suse also has some of the little annoying things ironed out that Ubuntu still has a problem with. I expect these issues to be ironed out of Ubuntu in the next year considering how far it has come. Even as bloated as Suse is it just can not come with every driver for every wireless configuration known to man. Ubuntu just happens to carry drivers that Suse left out and Suse has some that are left out of Ubuntu. But overall people generally have better luck with hardware issues with Suse.


I have seen better wireless support on SuSE RETAIL versions. The OpenSUSE lacks alot. So there is a dividing line on SuSE, SuSE 10.0 Retail is nice. But, the open version lacks so much that some users can use it unless they have a plain desktop without wireless and other fancy things.
So buy the retail if you want the good SuSE, if you can afford it get the EVAL version. It doesnt have a time limit and its exactly the same as the retail.
Or if you have a plain desktop and dont care for anything like java, then OpenSUSE if for you.

Cheers,
Bandit

drizek
January 15th, 2006, 07:43 PM
a great guide for anyone wanting to setup an opensuse system

http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT2703022234.html

as for the wifi, it was just that the laptop had a basic intel integrated wifi, which has an opensource firmware. i thought it would have been a no-brainer and i was really surprised that i had to add it on my own.

im going to try out 10.1 beta 1 in a few days though. if dapper holds up, ill replace breezy with it. then ill have three beta os's on my comoputer. dapper, suse, and windows xp.

commodore
January 15th, 2006, 08:01 PM
When I first heard of Vista I thought why are they copying mac and linux? I thought Windows is left behind big time. Now I see that Linux doesn't actually have lots of Mac stuff.

w3bu53r
January 16th, 2006, 07:41 AM
To OP: You're lucky, I couldn't even access the LiveCD...

poofyhairguy
January 16th, 2006, 10:05 AM
Because in todays world, 'easy to use' no longer exists. People that have been using Windows for 10 years (= the majority of 'Joe Average PC users') will only find things easy that they expect and/or know how they work.

It's because they've seen autoinstallers and desktop shortcuts for 10 years, that they think those are not only the easiest or best, but even the only way.
It's because their own PC and the PCs of all of their friends and coworkers crash every now and then that they have grown to accept this as natural behaviour.
It's because Windows looks have improved (to some peoples taste anyway) on each 'upgraded version' that they have come to associate the better looks with perceived better functionality.

It is because that is what they're most used to, that they will find any other method hard to learn.

And as a 4-month Windows XP to Ubuntu convert I can honestly say that at least Ubuntu (and definitely not all Linux distros out there) really is easier to use for me..... and the reason it became easier to use is that I'm learning how to do things bity by bit, and because there is this forum full of people who are willing to help me out.

Since I have now grown accustomed to the way things work in Ubuntu, I find Windows not as easy to use as I always did before... more precisely when booting Windows I find I miss things that have become 'normal' and 'easy' and 'convenient' to me in the past 4 months.

Anyway... long boring story to get just one point through: Anybody switching OS's needs to be prepared for differences. Just like anybody driving an automatic car and switching to a 'stick-gear' car will have to get accustomed to shifting gear manually all over again. It is not impossible, it is not even difficult, but it requires you to stop and think consciously for a moment about what you need to do next.... and then it all becomes routine again.
'Ease of use' only exist when people are willing to learn new things in the first place.

timberbot


You know why I just wrote that above? So its easy to search and find this post again. Thats how much I like it.

poofyhairguy
January 16th, 2006, 10:12 AM
Did the first one, it told me to do dpkg --configure -a which whirred for a bit but it seems to be working now. nice one :)

Thats a jewel of a command.

greasepain37
January 18th, 2006, 02:02 AM
I do know how to install windows, linux, whatever, but I just don't want to spend hours trying to configure things which should just work. That's just what I'm talking about: linux is still for those who have plenty of spare time or nothing better to do than to dismiss those who have a life... Not yet a viable alternative for 99% of the users, sorry.

i spend more time getting things to just work when i install windows like sound, nic, video. then i have to start with all the security. virus protection, spyware protection, terrorist protections. then i need to replace windows programs like IE and outlook with mozilla products. with ubuntu i need to mess with sound. it works just not the 5.1

rjwood
January 18th, 2006, 02:18 AM
Prime time is right here and ubuntu is already here. What in the world are you talking about??

veritas366
January 25th, 2006, 10:01 PM
Hoping that would get some attention. I posted this on my local Linux group for comments. I am actually a happy and somewhat evangelical Ubuntu user and want to spread the word. I thought this might be one way but met resistance. So, submitted for your perusal:


I had an interesting experience I thought I'd share and see if I could
get some input.

A couple of days ago I went to (local computer store). Place isn't much to look
at, but if they happen to have what you are looking for...great prices
on used, reclaimed (or who knows where they get it) computers and
components. I got a couple 128 Meg sdram for 15 bucks apiece. (note, someone in my local group told me I could get 512 for 18 bucks online. Sigh.)

Anyway, I tutor for a living...and summer is coming up and that's a slow
time. I saw they were advertising for retail help so I thought I'd ask
about it. It occurred to me that while I'm absolutely no expert on
Linux (though I've been using Ubuntu for about a year now) it would be
fun to build super cheap computers with Linux. You'd have to advertise
it just right, but for someone who just wants email and web
browsing...maybe some word processing and printing, it could be viable.
And really, if marketed correctly, you could find others willing to try
it, I think.

So I asked if they ever did that.

Me: "You guys ever think about selling Linux boxes?"

Tech guy who I wasn't even talking to: "They (owners?) have thought
about NOT doing Linux for the last 3 years.)"

What was weird was his tone. I thought he was gonna jump over the
counter and slap me! (By the way, this isn't a knock on the place as a
whole...maybe there are other places in nashville like it, but I don't
think so. You can get good deals online but it's nice to be able to
walk in and see the stuff.)

Anyway, his reasoning was sometimes solid and sometimes...not so much.

for example, he said support would be a nightmare.

Me: "Well, do you all provide support for the Windows boxes you sell?"

Him: "No."

Me: "So how would this be worse?"

Him: "Well, there would be so few buyers that it wouldn't pay off"

Me: "But since the OS is FREE, there's no cost other than install
time."

anyway, I've written this to make me look like the one who won all the
arguments, of course. This is MY post after all, but to be honest,
there really are reasons that Linux hasn't moved to prime time, though
it's getting that way in other countries. Mandriva has just announced,
for example, a deal to partner with HP in South America to provide HP
boxes with Mandriva OS.

Anyway, I was thinking of calling up the sales manager and kicking the
idea around some more. On the phone...otherwise I'm afraid the only
thing that will get kicked around will be my a...er...head.

Here are, in no particular order, the things that make Linux a good deal
and the drawbacks. I'll list them, and then I was wondering if people
would care to comment. (Someone can post this on the main list if you
want...I'm not on that one as it was over my head to often. )

Pros

Free. While the very beginner might do better with a paid Linux distro
like Linspire, which has bells, whistles, and most importantly, NONFREE
CODECS! (see below), in theory it is possible to have an OS for zero
cost. (Does anyone know how much the end consumer pays for OEM XP?)

Tons of free software. This is the part that I think would be the
selling feature. Free photoshop? Gimp. Free Office suite? Open
Office. And though I find the naming conventions to Linux software
quirky and certainly not controlled by people with advertising
sensibilities, there's tons more. (I know GIMP would maybe not meet pro
standards, but it does everything most of us would want.)

Security. A harder sell. People seem to have the idea that somehow
open source is EASIER to hack by bad guys. But people get the no
spyware, very rare virus, part. I don't even have anti-virus software,
though I suppose I should get some.

Looks. This is a surprising one to most people who envision Linux as
looking like Dos or something. Maybe Windows 3.1. But with just a few
tweaks, I think my Linux desktop looks much nicer than Windows. I guess
you can tweak Windows too, but I found lots more ways to tweak the
desktop-look a lot more easily on Ubuntu. Not all of the lines are as
clean, nor will you have fancy eyecandy like dropshadows without some
real tweaking...but I still like it better. Plus, TOO fancy = higher
end machine or video card anyway.

Cons

Drivers. UGH! I know it is the fault of nasty closed source companies
who believe that they should only provide drivers for the OS THEY find
important (okay, they gotta pay their developers...so I know it's a $$$
thing...but actually, there are folks in the Linux community who would
do it for free if asked), but it's a pain. I bought an Epson scanner
recently that I'd actually found a Linux driver for...and it won't even
go so far as detect it yet. I haven't fooled around with it yet, but
the point is...a normal user wouldn't even want to spend much time
dealing with it. I'd even researched to make sure it had a Linux driver
available...but it didn't work. Probably user error...but that's not
the point. Or maybe it is...on Windows I can use it. I wish it were
easier on Ubuntu to get a definitive answer to the question will the
(insert hardware name here) work with ubuntu?

Ditto on video cards, but if someone buys a high end card, then they, by
definition, are not looking for a low end computer. Extra points to
Nvidia for releasing Linux drivers. And they work.

Printing. On my latest upgrade, Ubuntu found my printer and installing
was not too tough. But the quality is much worse for high end printing,
like photos. This is even at the highest dpi. I think HP simply has
some software enhancements to the printing process not available in
CUPS. In addition, though I have the GIMP printer add on and I THINK it
is seamlessly working alongside cups...I'm not even really sure it's
doing ANYTHING. Again...rtfm...sure. And which printers will work in
Linux and which won't. Even Ubuntu...a very user friendly distro in my
opinion, doesn't have the easiest way to find out the best hardware to
purchase.

Proprietary multimedia codecs. Double UGH!. I understand the legal
issues. But let's be honest, most people just want to have a look at a
movie trailer or listen to Mp3's. Both possible on Linux, but if you
get a truly free version, like Ubuntu, it won't come with the codecs to
play nonfree formats. Someone on Ubuntu made a script for gathering all
that unfree stuff together and automatically installing all the codecs
etc (also for things like Java and Flash) but it is a separate step and
can't be officially included (I think) in their distro. And, a retail
store might be in a tricky legal situation when promoting that idea.

Games. Well, this one is easy. If you are a computer gamer, you are
willing to spend money on computer stuff, so the "Linux as low end
alternative" isn't even as relevant. There are a few games with Linux
ports, but not many. Cedega is a con, in my view, though many like the
service, and wine is intimidating to me... Anyway, hard core gamers are
not a target market. (Extra points to Neverwinter Nights for releasing a
Linux client. It works great. You basically have to download the
entire CD, but at least they provide one. If they do so for NWN2 I will
buy it, even though I don't game much anymore...just to support the
idea.)

Compatibility. I'm afraid that we must also cross off our list people
who need to do some work from home. Basic Word documents are compatible
with OO, but even then, I've had some spacing issues. I did a resume
that I had on Word and in OO the spacing BETWEEN lines (even though
still considered single space) was greater and it no longer fit on one
page.) They can dual boot...but that's not the target market I was
looking for in this scenario. They could get WINE (a little
intimidating as I mentioned) or Crossover office, but why spend 60 bucks
on software to make Windows programs useable when for a bit more you get
Windows itself?)

Wireless networking. Ummmm....no. I think no one has made that easy
yet...but if someone is building a wireless network at home...they may
not be the target for this little campaign anyway. I know it CAN be
done...but just looking at complaints about it (for Ubuntu anyway) it
looks like it's behind the times.

Webcams.. Ditto...for now anyway. Linux users are going to have to date
the old fashioned way...in person!

So, though I've listed more negatives, I think the positives are really
there. What would you guys say to the folks at Consumer Depot? Is
there thinking correct? With so many different computers, motherboards,
components being tossed together, is Linux really just not viable even
when trying to build a sub 200 dollar computer (I think that's a
reasonable target. In fact, Emachines had a new computer with monitor
and printer on sale for under 400. That's WITH windows. And also some
scary processor..but still.)

Most on this list are very experienced computer users. Would you
recommend Linux to your mom who wants to finally get a computer just to
browse the web and order her Oprah books of the month and finally be
able to look at her granddaughters pictures? Or a student who may have
some computer experience but be really broke?

What flavors of Linux would be best for such an enterprise? One thing
about Linux is that it can be installed on leftover low end machines
when Windows could never possibly work. I've never used Damn Small
Linux, but I know it's out there. How about a $50 computer?

Ubuntu's next version, the "Dapper Drake" is supposed to "compete with"
Vista. I doubt that...Windows just has too many licensing deals so that
plug and play really does work almost all the time. But that is there
goal. They want to polish up the desktop and really concentrate on
making some basic functions far more intuitive.

Are there other distros that would have this sort of appeal?

I'm sorry if this ramble ends up in everyone's trash can. I love the
whole Open source/freeware movement and I get kinda evangelical about
it. I'm not really a techie, though I can now do a lot of things in
Linux, but that's the point...I want to see it spread to the non-techie
community. It's happening a lot in other countries...

Comments?

veritas366
January 25th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Just replying to my own thread because I forgot to subscribe to the thread. Ignore this post!

aysiu
January 25th, 2006, 10:33 PM
Any computer user must assess her own needs to see what operating system is best suited for her. I wouldn't recommend Windows to everybody. I wouldn't recommend Mac OS X to everybody. I wouldn't recommend Ubuntu to everybody. It all depends on what you have and what you need to do... and what you prefer.

For more, read this: http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktop.php

joflow
January 25th, 2006, 10:56 PM
Support would be a nightmare...basically there would be none. Its not so easy for a casual user or computer newbie to "go to www.linuxdistrowebsite.com/community and post for help"

For OS related issues, they'll have better support with windows but the thing is, they probably won't know the difference between an OS problem and an hardware problem and if its used hardware they probably wont have any hardware technical support. So buying a used PC in general might be a bad idea for a newbie.

Puptentacle
January 25th, 2006, 11:13 PM
The driver issue is always going to be there until the big peripheral manufacturers realize there is a market for Linux and that market is willing to spend money on Linux Compatible hardware. Gaming, likewise. Unfortunately you get into the "snake swallowing his own tail" problem here because until Linux catches on, there won't be widepsread support and without widespread support, Linux won't catch on.

Having said that...I think that people are getting sick of the problems associated with Windows and are either actively looking for alternatives, or are going to be when Vista comes out and will only run on top-end machines. I "upgraded" to XP because I was told it was much more stable than 98se. And it is. Of course it's still horrible, but much less horrible than it's predecessor. I won't even mention my experience buying a new machine with ME on it...

I've said before in the forums that the problem isn't learning Linux, it's UNLEARNING Windows! The reason that Linux is catching on in other countries is that the OS is being presented to people who have little or no previous computer experience. Given this scenario, Linux is no more difficult than Windows, just different. The problem lies in the fact that people are afraid of change. Windows is irritating but for the average user it works. I could sit someone's grandmother, with no previous experience in computers, in front of an Ubuntu box and have her doing everything she wants to do in a matter of an hour or so. Email, basic web search, photos of the grandkids, maybe some word processing. It's all there, out of the box.

I love the arguement that Windows "works". No it doesn't! What do you get out of a $200 Windows install?
*Wordpad, a "word processor" with zero features.
*MediaPlayer - A bloated, slow, unfriendly player that sucks resources like crazy and hides any useful features it may have behind a "purty" interface.
*An Image Viewer that is nearly useless and allows nearly no actual editing of photos.
*A file system that requires near constant maintainance to keep operating.
*A slow, out of date file search system.
*A non-standards-compliant web browser with nearly zero features and many security flaws.
*A buggy, insecure Email program.
*A lousy movie editor, a lousy Paint program, a calculator that (amazingly) actually works and some system tools that a modern OS shouldn't even need (Defrag, anyone?)

How is that a complete system? A Yugo was a car, but it wasn't what you could call "full featured".

With Ubuntu you get a fully featured system, with built-in programs to do the basics of computing. A solid OS that is secure and reliable. A system that allows you to (relatively) easily find and install other applications as you need them. A community of helpful people to assist you if you need it. I don't see how you can compare the two. Windows most certainly isn't "ready to use" out of the box for the average user.

I'm looking forward to building an Ubunutu box for someone and trying my theory soon.

(and as far as wireless networking goes...it isn't a cakewalk in Windows, either!!!)

Derek Djons
January 25th, 2006, 11:30 PM
As a computer technican I know that Windows works but people think about an other way of 'working'. They think after installing Windows it's all ready to go. It's very freaky to see how dumb or ignorant the majority of people can be. A lot of people think that Windows is all. You'll get the Operating System installed, Office installed and sometimes of course semi-professional sound / video editing software.

I've lost the count how often I referred to customers about Windows stating that:

* Windows is just an Operating System. It's software you install in order to control your hardware and install applications.

* Windows means a Operating Systems. Office means wordprocessing and etc and yes... it are two seperate packages you have to purchase.

* Why you are paying $40,- for a reinstall... because it's not just placing in the disc and go have a cup of coffee. After being asked for input every ten minutes by the setup I'll have to install all of the device drivers, reinstall all your applications of which 30% is illegal (so these you can take home right now) and after that I'll be running two hours of Microsoft Windows Update, Symantec LiveUpdate, Lavasoft Ad-Aware def. files etc.

Only for these three reasons I still can't understand how people can be so blind. For at least 80% of the Windows / Office computer users Linux would do. No installing, long configuring and update times. And the best has to come yet. It's all almost costless except shipping or retail versions of certain distro's. I've got only one explanation for such kind of behaviour. Most people are just like a stock of cattle. Moowing like the first cow since he does it, so it should be the right thing. I know advertisment and promotions are influencial but come on... of 60% of all people using Office then can't even make internal document links, let stand need all the other features.

totfit
January 26th, 2006, 04:01 AM
Hey, I am a Nashvillian new to Ubuntu. Going on two weeks now. I am having the "scanner problem". First had a webcam that was locking the system when sane was looking for the scanner. Now I just can't find the CanoScan FB640Usb.
Well, I will keep trying to find a workaround. For me though, the positives thus far outweigh these problems by quite a bit. I really love Ubuntu, but I have to find a work around for my scanner. Anyway, if you get down into your thread this far, I am a Nashvillian also.

Gregg

veritas366
January 26th, 2006, 08:04 AM
hey gregg,

I originally posted this on the Nashville Linux users group newbies list. The group wasn't what I hoped...mainly hard core techies who know way more than I do and argue fiercely about programming languages.

I was hoping to find a group of just plain Linux users...

Anyway, what scanner do you have? I have an Epson perfection 4180. It allegedly has the supported driver at http://www.avasys.jp/english/linux_e/dl_scan.html

but it doesn't work. I think it's because I don't have the right stuff installed already...but with several different programs for scanners all having the word "sane" in them...I gave up. There's sane, xsane, quite insane and I think you need one of them before the driver will work.

Right now, my computer in Ubuntu doesn't even notice anything in that USB connection.

Send me a pm if you want and I'll shoot you my private email and we can compare notes.

phen
January 26th, 2006, 12:55 PM
hello!

my suggestion: sell a full system with a printer. you work around any driver issues, because you simply sell only printers that work under linux. put the automatix script as a button on the desktop. i've never used it, but i think it installs everything, with legal notes where needed. (i dont know the legal situation in the u.s. but i think it could be O.K.)

i installed ubuntu for my mother. i removed everything from the desktop except 4 buttons: firefox, thunderbird, word, shutdown. i renamed them "surf the internet", "email", "writing letters", "turn off". she is so happy now. she never understood why she had to press "start" to actually STOP the computer :-)

she was allways in fear of strange adware (when she opened IE she had to close many windows before she was able to see the adress bar...).

she is the un-tech-savyest person on this world i know, and she likes ubuntu more than windows! But it took me hours to get there. with that amount of time, you maybe can change the windows desktop, too. but she would ve never been able to....

veritas366
January 26th, 2006, 02:48 PM
i installed ubuntu for my mother. i removed everything from the desktop except 4 buttons: firefox, thunderbird, word, shutdown. i renamed them "surf the internet", "email", "writing letters", "turn off". she is so happy now. she never understood why she had to press "start" to actually STOP the computer

LOL

That post made my day. That's EXACTLY the kind of thing I was talking about and your button renaming was very funny.

veritas366
January 26th, 2006, 02:53 PM
Couple links. I actually boycott Walmart for their employment practices and the way they screw over local communities, but as an example, they are selling a Linspire laptop.

http://media.linspire.com/walmart/

Also, here's the article about Mandriva and their HP partnership in South America. Someone commented that you can sell computers to BRAND NEW users with Linux because they don't "know any better", or as we would put it, "know any worse!"


http://news.com.com/HP+to+sell+Linux+PCs+across+Latin+America/2100-7344_3-6028325.html

Sirin
January 26th, 2006, 03:27 PM
I love the arguement that Windows "works". No it doesn't! What do you get out of a $200 Windows install?
*Wordpad, a "word processor" with zero features.
*MediaPlayer - A bloated, slow, unfriendly player that sucks resources like crazy and hides any useful features it may have behind a "purty" interface.
*An Image Viewer that is nearly useless and allows nearly no actual editing of photos.
*A file system that requires near constant maintainance to keep operating.
*A slow, out of date file search system.
*A non-standards-compliant web browser with nearly zero features and many security flaws.
*A buggy, insecure Email program.
*A lousy movie editor, a lousy Paint program, a calculator that (amazingly) actually works and some system tools that a modern OS shouldn't even need (Defrag, anyone?)

How is that a complete system? A Yugo was a car, but it wasn't what you could call "full featured".

With Ubuntu you get a fully featured system, with built-in programs to do the basics of computing. A solid OS that is secure and reliable. A system that allows you to (relatively) easily find and install other applications as you need them. A community of helpful people to assist you if you need it. I don't see how you can compare the two. Windows most certainly isn't "ready to use" out of the box for the average user.

There is no system restore in Ubuntu.;)

plexi50
January 26th, 2006, 05:03 PM
I am all for this method to educate/switch users. My next project is to recycle one of my old systems for my 73 yo father with a locked down system for email/web/documents. It should work well for him with just a few icons/no spyware scanning/no Norton AV updates, etc.
Seems to me most Ubuntu/Linux failures come from our own need to tweak things and he will never do that.
Depending on how that works out, I may setup some other old hardware (seems like I have too much of that) for some low income folks.
Ubuntu is the easiest free distro I have found to get up and running out of the box. I can do a fresh install and barring driver issues have it ready to go in about 2 hours. No way I can to that w/Windoze. Instal XP, endless updates, security, all of the extra software needed to even do anything, lock it all down...get me some coffee.

Puptentacle
January 26th, 2006, 07:31 PM
There is no system restore in Ubuntu.;)

LOL! I thought about that after I posted. Very true. Ubuntu has no system restore, therefore...LINUX SUCKS!

(shakes head and leaves thread chuckling)

Puptentacle
January 26th, 2006, 07:40 PM
The Wal-Mart Linspire Laptop add is pretty funny.


More than 1,900 free software programs for download, with guaranteed updates for 3 months!

WOOHOO. Thanks a bunch, Linspire.

phen
January 27th, 2006, 12:40 AM
veritas366: today i came across a lobby4linux project: they want to broadcast radio advertisement in austin to spread linux for home use. there's a thread about who wants linux, who will have benefits etc...

i think your post that started this thread is very good and should be added to the discussion.

the forum thread:
http://lobby4linux.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=226&forum=34

the 1st announcement:
http://lobby4linux.com/WordPress/?p=74

the follow-up article:
http://lobby4linux.com/WordPress/?p=75

DigitalDuality
January 27th, 2006, 12:43 AM
There is no system restore in Ubuntu.;)
Yeah...but only Windows needs one ;)

tico
February 2nd, 2006, 03:46 AM
First of all, thanks to all that triedo to help me here.
I'm trying to use Linux since 1998 and I've always had hardware problems/incompatibilities.
Now, I'm using Ubuntu Live CD to give it another try, and after some days trying to make my scanner (Canon Lide50) and my printer (Lexmark Z515) work, I'm giving up once more. I'm sorry to say, but in Windows, everything has always worked. I know that hardware makers don't make drivers for Linux. But what can the final user do? He can do as me: use Windows to see every piece of hardware working. Sorry to say, but Windows works and Linux seems to be not very productive. A user cannot spend days and days to be frustrated and just be able to say: Well, I'm must turn back to Windows to be able to print my files... This is not productivity! Windows has many problems, but it works. After 8 years (trying, not using), I still cannot make my hardware work in Linux. I decided to try Ubuntu because I saw a kind of "this is Linux for everybody" propaganda. It seems that this is not true. And this is not a problem with me: I help many friends with Windows (setup/use). I can do whatever I want with Windows (but I'd like to use Linux because of the freedom philosophy). What can I do? When am I be able to use Linux easily and in a productive way (not spending many days to be frustrated because my printer and scanner don't work...)?
Sorry, but this time I'm really frustrated with Linux. Maybe because I believed Ubuntu was Linux for everybody, even for me...
Any idea? Any help? Any comment?

Sorry once more and thanks.

ZylGadis
February 2nd, 2006, 04:04 AM
Don't know if that will help you, but the situation has really changed since 98 - I used slack then, but I suppose it was equally bad with other distros. I have a box here with two pieces of hardware (tv tuner and a custom sound card) that windows simply fails to recognize no matter what I do, while everything works without even installing additional drivers under ubuntu. Perhaps you can dual-boot for the time being, and next time you shop for hardware, look around for stuff that works under both OS. In this way you will move over gradually, and in the meantime maybe your old hardware will receive linux support.
So, keep a stiff upper lip, and don't surrender your ideals :)

P.S. I bet you don't do whatever you want with windows simply because you can't. You can only do whatever some guy at microsoft has allowed you to. If you want to do exactly what you want to, there is no alternative to open source.

ockertom
February 2nd, 2006, 04:11 AM
Try this Place for your printer, unfortunately you have 2 of the worst items for linux period lol, I know I have a cannon printer I cant get to work.

http://gentoo-wiki.com/Lexmark_Printers

slavik
February 2nd, 2006, 04:13 AM
I would suggest trying another Linux distribution (Knoppix is great for LiveCD environment).

I hope you understand why the hardware support lacks greatly. It is simply because much more people use Windows.

If for example, Canon saw that their competitors are offering Linux drivers and they start eating their market share, Canon would start providing drivers for Linux (They have OSX drivers, Linux drivers aren't too far).

You also have to understand that most drivers available for products (video cards and wifi cards are prime examples) are based mostly on 'community' (linux developers) support. Video card manufacturers (ATI and nVidia are already competing in creating Linux drivers somewhat) are starting what I consider a giant push for creating Linux drivers.

When ATI was comming out with Radeon 8500, everyone was saying that it's a great card but at the time their driver support for Windows was terrible! This was in 2002. (maybe 2003, Windows XP was around the corner and Windows 98 was dominant on home PC). Then ATI came out with a press release that they were going to make a big push in driver support, which they did.

Fast forward to 2006 and we see the same picture repainting itself with Linux instead. If you ask anyone which card to use for Windows, in 2002 everyone would say nVidia. Today you get the same answer when subtituting Windows with Linux (or s/Windows/Linux/ for the sed/perl crowd). ATI knows this and they are going to make a push (they already have been) to make better drivers.

For Linux to have as great hardware compatability as Windows XP does, I would agree that it would take time. I would disagree on the 10 to 20 years figure though. I would be mroe inclined to say 5 years. I am also very certain that by the time the version of Windows after Vista comes out, Linux will be ahead. Because Linux is being developed constantly. Slowly but surely.

As for printer support, I have an HP Deskjet 920C and when I tried Knoppix 4.0.2 LiveDVD, it was able to configure my printer (use the HP driver) and I was able to print to it. I am not going to say that not getting your Lexmark working properly under Linux is somehow your fault. But I will point out that HP doesn't just make printers or home computers. They also make large servers which run Linux, they have experience in working with Linux and for them to get someone to write a printer driver for Linux is a matter of finding 5 Linux people with nothing to do and asking them to start coding.

For me, since I am a 'gamer' Linux cannot fully satisfy me, no matter how well Wine/Cedega work. You cannot beat native compatability between two software components.

Another battle with Windows that Linux won is 64bit compatability. Linux was AMD64 compatible way before Windows.

To compare Linux to Windows.

Windows 1.0 was released as a retail product in 1985.
Linux 0.1 was released as a beta product in 1991.

EDIT:
Alex, we can do in Linux only what the developers allow. To be able to do everything we want is to make ourselves developers. I am a computer science major and I doubt I could develop (or help much) in Linux, not to speak of the Joe Sixpack users. Also, Lide50 is a fairly recent scanner. Mine is an N1240U which is equivalent to Lide30.

tico
February 2nd, 2006, 04:17 AM
Thanks for the reply. As you can see, I really want to use Linux (8 years "trying" as I said). Dual boot would be a solution for some softwares I use with no equivalent in Linux (because they were made for my job and I must use them), but it seems to bad "Fine! Finished my report! Now, I'll reboot and go to Windows, because I need to print it". I cannot go to Windows everytime I need to scan/print something. This is not productive. What is astonish for me: my hardware is made by famous marks (Canon, Lexmark). They don't provide Linux drivers, I know. But I still cannot use my hardware and so Linux seems still unuseable (since 98...). It's true that before Ubuntu, I was not able to use even my soundcard or my modem. But if you have a hardware, it's because you need/want to use it. My frustration is: I believed Ubuntu would work with my hardware and after many days and googles, still no printer and scanner? An user cannot spend such a time to be able to use a printer. It's too much...

PS.: Which are the makers of your tv tuner and sound card? Are you sure there are no Win drivers for them?

soulestream
February 2nd, 2006, 04:18 AM
Maybe you should read a HCL, before installing things. As far as compatability, i just installed W2k on a older PC for a friend. I had Archlinux on it and everything(everything) was detected and installed. W2k needed drivers for the video card(nvidia), the network card (3com 3c905b), and the sound card( dont remember). So I spent an hour downloading things.

My laptop, ubuntu detected everything. Windows needed drivers for about half of my devices.

As far as you scanner and printer. Lexmark support has been getting better. I dont know about cannon. I use an epson all-in-one and it works perfectly.

I am an admin and the more and more I learn about Linux the more frustrated I get on Windows trying to make simple stuff work.

soule

slavik
February 2nd, 2006, 04:34 AM
Ahh, but the problem you are having with Windows 2000 is a license issue, not a support issue.

Microsoft can't just take all the manufacturer's drivers and distribute them. If they did ... I don't think Microsoft would want to ship Windows on 2 DVDs and then receive support calls for an unincluded driver X.

s_spiff
February 2nd, 2006, 04:43 AM
well tough luck tico, but truthfully, linux is in **** as deep as windows is. I'm a new user to linux, like yourself, have tried a million different distros before I could settle down on ubuntu.
what really got me to try ubuntu, was not its ratings, reviews and crap, but, a article I read. the topic of that post was : Is ubuntu really for you, or something of that sort. None of the other distro's have come close to ubuntu , as far as recognizing hardware comes, and besides you can pickup the drivers right off the shelf of repo's.
And the imo, only thing common betwen win and nix is they are OS's, rest as I now see it, nix is tough, and unless you really have an urge to learn it, its not for you.
If you happen to see a noob to computers, not linux or windows, but computers, you'll see that, he'l get as frustrated with windows as with linux, he may probably even score linux over windows.
Anyways, I'm ranting off too much, for a noob to nix, but heck, it's the noobs that make a OS, or else why would giants develop simpler and new stuff for their OS :P

soulestream
February 2nd, 2006, 04:56 AM
Ahh, but the problem you are having with Windows 2000 is a license issue, not a support issue.

Microsoft can't just take all the manufacturer's drivers and distribute them. If they did ... I don't think Microsoft would want to ship Windows on 2 DVDs and then receive support calls for an unincluded driver X.

yeah its nice that ubuntu doesnt have to worry about licensing issues and those 2 ubuntu dvds did take awhile to download......oh wait.....;)

The point is nothing will generally come with everything you need. I hardly ever run into hardware that is not linux compatible. As hardware is a feature of the kernel, not the distro, I can install any linux drivers on any linux distro.(with proper kernel)

and next year I will build a nice cluster out of poeple's P4 PC's that arent fast enough to run Vista. Plus being as M$ has already said they are no longer going to worry about hardware compatablility, they will be busy waiting for all the manufacturers to catch up with drivers. \\:D/

soule

matthew
February 2nd, 2006, 05:02 AM
My honest and heartfelt response is that I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, but you should feel free to use what works for you with no hard feelings. Linux isn't for everybody. If Windows works for you that's great. Use it in good health.

midwinter
February 2nd, 2006, 05:05 AM
The problem is with the manufacturers of your hardware and that's all there is to it. This post would be better off on their forums (if they even have them).

Sorry it didn't work out though.

siorai
February 2nd, 2006, 05:12 AM
One option you may not have thought about is VMWare. I installed XP Pro into VMWare Player by following this thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=84275 So, now I have the ability to access the programs and hardware that wouldn't work in Linux, while not having to reboot to do it. It works great. I just have a partition formatted as FAT32 and shared so I can easily transfer anything between Ubuntu and XP. While it may not be the perfect solution of having everything work natively, it solves my problems and means that I don't actually need a dual boot just for a select program or piece of hardware.

Elvish Legion
February 2nd, 2006, 05:12 AM
May I ask why you are trying linux if everything is working for you in windows? You can't expect things to work perfect in linux, the user base, while growing, isn't there yet.

galgoz
February 2nd, 2006, 08:38 AM
I too am trying to use Linux even though I have a licensed copy of XP. Why?

1. I prefer the gnome desktop
2. My dual monitor setup has better functionality than in windows
3. virtual desktop is better than offered by Windows Powertoys
4. better open source software selection, in other words Money
5. microsoft makes me feel dirty
6. don't want to upgrade to vista
7. hate defraggin, virus scanning, spyware removing

why is XP still my OS of choice

1. ease of use (filesharing and print serving only, other than that they are equally easy to use if ubuntu doesn't have a slight edge, although I should have used Fedora to try to make a server however)
2. games (yeah, I know about the linux options)
3. media center (snapstream.com) I use their tv software on several pc's and they are the best, however couldn't get it to install even in linux
4. macromedia products ( I did get dreamweaver and flash to install and work but not fireworks and gimp doesn't cut it for me)

nocturn
February 2nd, 2006, 09:01 AM
First of all, thanks to all that triedo to help me here.
I'm trying to use Linux since 1998 and I've always had hardware problems/incompatibilities.


I started to use Linux in 1997 and wiped my windows partition in 1999. At first, I did have a lot of hardware issues (although my onboard sound chip worked out of the box in Linux and refused for a long time in Win98).

But since I made the choice that Linux will be my OS, I have made it a point to buy hardware that I know will work under Linux. I haven't had any major hardware issues since.

And to be fair, not all hardware works under windows (and this will get worse with Vista). My previous scanner, a microtek only had win9x drivers which don't work in XP. The manufacturer does not release new drivers, so in the windows world it is a throwaway. It worked fine under Linux until the hardware died a couple of years back, otherwise I'd still be using it.


Sorry to say, but Windows works and Linux seems to be not very productive. A user cannot spend days and days to be frustrated and just be able to say: Well, I'm must turn back to Windows to be able to print my files... This is not productivity! Windows has many problems, but it works.


I disagree. If you buy hardware that is supported under your OS of choice (Linux for example), you will not spend countless lost hours. I have our two laptops at home installed and running with full productivity suite and the works in less then 1 hour. I can never get that far with XP which needs countless driver CD's, reboots and includes no applications.



Sorry, but this time I'm really frustrated with Linux. Maybe because I believed Ubuntu was Linux for everybody, even for me...
Any idea? Any help? Any comment?


I suggest that if you are still interested in using Linux (Ubuntu), get it installed and work out the issues with your current hardware, ask specific help here on the forums. Really it may take a while, but remember that once installed you do not need to reinstall every 6 months.

After that, choose all your new hardware carefully. Check the forum and/or google to see if it'll work under Linux and buy stuff that is known to be supported.

Optionally find a store that supports Linux and let them do the install (specially on a new compputer).

nocturn
February 2nd, 2006, 09:06 AM
Another suggestion to all new users.

Before switching to Linux (Ubuntu or other), make a migration plan. I'm serious.

1# Download and try some LiveCD's to see which environment you like (Gnome/KDE/XFCE/*)
2# Make an inventory of your current hardware and check how well it'll work with your Linux choice, ask questions on the forums about it.
3# Make an inventory of your software and look at the alternatives on Linux (like Outlook can be replaced with either Evolution or Thunderbird). Check if programs that have no alternative will work under wine.
4# Make an inventory of your data and prepare/back it up for the migration.

Dual booting is good to ease the transition and to spread the time it takes to iron out glitches.

mips
February 2nd, 2006, 09:23 AM
tico,

Should you ever upgrade/replace your hardware in the future could I suggest you buy something that is Linux compatible (Like HP for example) even thought you are using windows. This will allow you to come try Linux again in the future without the hardware compatibility issues.

Check before you purchase.

galgoz
February 2nd, 2006, 09:31 AM
Good idea about the gmail invites. I will do the same in my sig.

poofyhairguy
February 2nd, 2006, 10:03 AM
First of all, thanks to all that triedo to help me here.
I'm trying to use Linux since 1998 and I've always had hardware problems/incompatibilities.
Now, I'm using Ubuntu Live CD to give it another try, and after some days trying to make my scanner (Canon Lide50) and my printer (Lexmark Z515) work, I'm giving up once more. I'm sorry to say, but in Windows, everything has always worked. I know that hardware makers don't make drivers for Linux. But what can the final user do? He can do as me: use Windows to see every piece of hardware working. Sorry to say, but Windows works and Linux seems to be not very productive. A user cannot spend days and days to be frustrated and just be able to say: Well, I'm must turn back to Windows to be able to print my files... This is not productivity! Windows has many problems, but it works. After 8 years (trying, not using), I still cannot make my hardware work in Linux. I decided to try Ubuntu because I saw a kind of "this is Linux for everybody" propaganda. It seems that this is not true. And this is not a problem with me: I help many friends with Windows (setup/use). I can do whatever I want with Windows (but I'd like to use Linux because of the freedom philosophy). What can I do? When am I be able to use Linux easily and in a productive way (not spending many days to be frustrated because my printer and scanner don't work...)?
Sorry, but this time I'm really frustrated with Linux. Maybe because I believed Ubuntu was Linux for everybody, even for me...
Any idea? Any help? Any comment?

Sorry once more and thanks.


I'm sorry to hear of your trouble. I am also sorry that someone told you that Ubuntu was for everybody. It is that person who is truely at fault, not Ubuntu/Linux/You. They gave you unrealistic expectations.

Ubuntu is Linux for Human Beings. As in- everyone can try. No restrictions on use. But Ubuntu (and Linux) cannot and will not ever be for anyone.

Here is some advice for the next eight years if you ever want to move to Linux: don't just buy hardware on the shelf. Do some research when you replace your current stuff. Its not that hard. Look here:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport

and here

http://www.linuxhardware.net/

And buy stuff that works with both OSes. Its not that bad. Sure you get less options, but if you don't do this you can never migrate. This is the true "cost" of Linux. So now that you know, make your decisions in the future with that in mind. Also avoid things like DRM music and media and other forms of lock in or your migration will never occur.

You can get there one day. I accerated the process buy build a new PC with only compatible parts. But I wanted a quick solution.You can get new compatible stuff over time when you current stuff is no longer up to task and maybe there is a chance you can switch before support for XP is gone!

TechSonic
February 2nd, 2006, 11:23 AM
If you read what the meaning behind a few of his words are, you would understand that this guy doesn't need help, he needs to be ignored.

The hardware listed does infact work in Linux just fine. Read how to use them instead.

Stop depending on your mouse.

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, perhaps you should of typed it out different, the way you said that, just makes me want to kick you.

awakatanka
February 2nd, 2006, 12:05 PM
If you read what the meaning behind a few of his words are, you would understand that this guy doesn't need help, he needs to be ignored.

The hardware listed does infact work in Linux just fine. Read how to use them instead.

Stop depending on your mouse.

I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, perhaps you should of typed it out different, the way you said that, just makes me want to kick you.
Well it looks like you know how it can get to work so point him in the right direction and help instead of flaming.

Vlammetje
February 2nd, 2006, 12:31 PM
does anybody else worry about the seemingly ever-increasing unfriendliness in this partof the forum?? :-k

egon spengler
February 2nd, 2006, 01:30 PM
does anybody else worry about the seemingly ever-increasing unfriendliness in this partof the forum?? :-k

Some people are somewhat abrupt or curt at times. I don't see it as something serious, not everyone is going to be jolly at all times and full of the "ubuntu spirit" (how I've come to loathe the terms "humanity to others" and "linux for humans" people twist them to support their argument in any given situation untill they are completely beret of meaning)

I think more of an issue is what compells people to fill this forum with spam such as this thread. Does every person who decides not to use ubuntu really merit it's own thread?

I'm off now to announce to the windowblinds board that I will no longer be using their software

tico
February 2nd, 2006, 02:37 PM
Hi,

I'm sorry if some people here were offensed with my post. This was not my intention. I really want to use Linux, otherwise I wouldn't be here asking for help). The problem is that is so frustrating after 8 years to have parts of my hardware unusable. I spent the last days trying to solve this issue, I searched the forum/web. I just think that, if it's so hard to people to solve such a problems, Linux community will not grow. How many people (like me) believe in a "philosophy of freedom"? People just want to sit infront a computer and work.

Believe me: I'd be really glad to be able to use Linux. It's a kind of love, passion. The problem is that Linux seems not to correspond to my affections :)

Please, HELP ME!! :-? :-? :-?

midwinter
February 2nd, 2006, 03:00 PM
Well I know your scanner is supposedly supported by the sane project http://www.sane-project.org/ since I have the same one and have followed progress occasionally. That's definitely the place to go, though if you say you've searched for days maybe you've tried there without success?

edit: investigating further, your scanner will be supported in the next version of Ubuntu (due in April), you can currently get a driver package from that site which has support for it though. If you need help installing, ask in an appropriate forum.

egon spengler
February 2nd, 2006, 03:12 PM
Hi,

I'm sorry if some people here were offensed with my post. This was not my intention. I really want to use Linux, otherwise I wouldn't be here asking for help). The problem is that is so frustrating after 8 years to have parts of my hardware unusable. I spent the last days trying to solve this issue, I searched the forum/web.

I just think that, if it's so hard to people to solve such a problems, Linux community will not grow. How many people (like me) believe in a "philosophy of freedom"? People just want to sit infront a computer and work.

So is the hardware 8 years old? I would wager that if some 8 year old hardware didn't work on vista it wouldn't be a cataclysmic problem that will prevent the vista community from growing. Now if on the other hand the hardware is not 8 years old then I would wonder why you didn't buy Linux compatible hardware seenig as you are so keen to run Linux

I'm not suggesting that you should go out now and buy new hardware just to accomodate ubuntu, if it works then why replace it needlessly? If I was in your position and needed my scanner and printer then I would switch to Windows post haste (btw what version of Windows are you running?) What I am saying though is that I don't see the purpose of threads annoucing imminent cesssation of using Linux, are we suppposed to plead with you to stay?

Now you have somewhat switched tone to asking for tech support, in that case I hope someone manages to help you get things moving. 8 years is a long time to be waiting, that's an even longer Linux jinx than poor old Kerberos

Vlammetje
February 2nd, 2006, 03:15 PM
The problem is that is so frustrating after 8 years to have parts of my hardware unusable. I spent the last days trying to solve this issue, I searched the forum/web. I just think that, if it's so hard to people to solve such a problems, Linux community will not grow. How many people (like me) believe in a "philosophy of freedom"? People just want to sit infront a computer and work.

Believe me: I'd be really glad to be able to use Linux. It's a kind of love, passion. The problem is that Linux seems not to correspond to my affections :)

Please, HELP ME!! :-? :-? :-?

I'm sorry, i simply cannot relate to your posts or even your problems at all. I'm a 4 months Linux user, I have two pieces of not terribly compatible hardware (soundcard and dect telephone).

For the phone there is no other solution than simply not using it for the PC at all, for the soundcard there has to be a way to make it work properly, I just haven't found it yet. Everything else, including peripherals such as a printer and a scanner, 'just work' for me. Of course, having a desktop and not using wireless, I'm somewhat on the advantage.

To be perfectly honest, I find it very hard to believe that 8 years should not have given you enough know-how to get your printer and scanner working. But if that is the case, and the problem is drivers for your hardware, and you're really into the 'freedom philosophy', it seesm to me there is only one way forward for you. And that way would seem to be to buy hardware from manufacturers who do not oppose the 'freedom philosophy'. Manufacturers whose products will be supported. It will save you another 8 years of agony.

If you are not prepared to sell the current non working hardware and invest in something else, perhaps linux (at least any distros you tried) simply isn't for you. In which case you'll have to abandon the 'freedom philosophy' and go with mac or MS.

tico
February 2nd, 2006, 03:22 PM
Hey, people,

My hardware is not 8 years old. I have, during these 8 years, tried to make Linux work with the hardware of 4 or 5 different computers. And I have always had hardware issues. My laptop is 2 years old.
Concerning xsane, I tried to install the newer test version (0.991), but I couldn't (too difficult to a Linux "newbie", even following intructions I've found here and on the web).

nocturn
February 2nd, 2006, 03:32 PM
Hey, people,

My hardware is not 8 years old. I have, during these 8 years, tried to make Linux work with the hardware of 4 or 5 different computers. And I have always had hardware issues. My laptop is 2 years old.


If you are really serious about using Linux, you could have planned your new purchases to support it.
I bought my laptop in july last year and the only things not working are hibernate and the built-in cardreader (the cardreader will be supported somewhere after kernel 2.6.15), but I knew that before the purchase.

The laptop we bought for my wife has working hibernate without tweaking. After a 45-minute install everything was up-and-running without any effort
including the wireless module (kernel supported).

midwinter
February 2nd, 2006, 03:38 PM
Hey, people,

My hardware is not 8 years old. I have, during these 8 years, tried to make Linux work with the hardware of 4 or 5 different computers. And I have always had hardware issues. My laptop is 2 years old.
Concerning xsane, I tried to install the newer test version (0.991), but I couldn't (too difficult to a Linux "newbie", even following intructions I've found here and on the web).

Did you ask for help.. ? Make a thread with a relevant thread title? In the appropriate place? You just have to ask for help properly. (it's actually libsane you need by the looks of it.. but this is the wrong thread for this..)

tico
February 2nd, 2006, 04:35 PM
Did you ask for help.. ?
Actually I did. No only here... I'm not crucifying people or offending them. My point is: the more easier is Linux, the more users will migrate. Ubuntu is Linux for human beings. Maybe I'm a dog, a mule or a tree (maybe a ET). But as a human being (if I am one ;) ), I should be able to use it esily. Concerning buying hardware for Linux, this is not always possible. I just think that migrate to Linux should be easier.
I have been trying another Live CD distribution (based on Knoppix, which I have already tried in the past years), but I get the same issues (and it's more complicated IMO than Ubuntu). So, Ubuntu seems my chance to migrate partially or totally to Linux (if VmWare supports my job's software; I couldn't install it to test using either Ubuntu or the Knoppix like distro).

Again I apologize if someone was offensed with my post. This was not my intention. I'm just a human being ;) trying to use a Linux for human beings :cool:

I'm migrating little by little to OOo 2, even if I own a Office 2K license. I believe in open software. I just would like to be able to use it. You cannot disagree that many people find Linux too complicated and I Know this is a reason for not migrating. I know that it was much more complicated before and a lot of progress was made. Maybe I'm the unlucky one (hey, I'm not Kenny :mrgreen: ), but I still would like to live with the penguins \\:D/

tico
February 2nd, 2006, 04:39 PM
Another thing: I'm not here to disturb the forum nor for being negative. But disagree and point difficulties are part of the process of making things better. And I'd like to see more people migrating ot Linux (myself included).

joflow
February 2nd, 2006, 04:57 PM
I give Linux maybe 2 years before its ready for "the desktop". Hopefully, by that time we'll have KDE 4 and Gnome 3 (maybe?). Both seem to be focused on innovation and usability rather then just playing catch up with windows so hopefully that'll set non OSX flavor *nix apart from windows. Of course, by then they'll be alot more OS independent web 2.0 apps, so having decent linux alternatives won't matter as much. I won't care that I dont like OO if I can use Office Suite online.

xequence
February 2nd, 2006, 05:42 PM
I once had a HP printer that just WOULDENT work in windows at all.

I think we took it back to the store...

aysiu
February 2nd, 2006, 05:51 PM
I wrote some stuff a while ago that the OP and a few others may want to read. Please note that I'm not calling anyone a troll here, but the well-intentioned troll thread does address some relevant points, so I'm including that, too:

Is Ubuntu for You? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)

The Chinese language is not "ready for the desktop" (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=120489)

What does "ready for the desktop" really mean, anyway? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=113874)

Anatomy of a Well-intentioned Linux Troll (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017)

What's Better than Whining on the Forums? Making a difference... (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)

What does "for human beings" mean? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70603)

Linux is ready for the desktop--but whose desktop? (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktop.php)

TechSonic
February 2nd, 2006, 05:58 PM
It does help that I was 'Plastered' last night.

I also managed to adapt a bit of my computer last night. Not sure how but I think I fixed a Mic/Volume problem I had. O.o

Anyways, I work better when 'f-ed' up.

joflow
February 2nd, 2006, 06:15 PM
Ready for the desktop = ready for mass adoption.

**Newsflash to Computer Geeks** Non-Geeks need to use computers too

And KDE/Gnome has some usability issues, even the developers have recognized it and have made efforts to address the problem (i.e. KDE's Appeal initiative). One of Appeal's goals:

Usability

* making technology accessible and useful for a broad range of users by making it consistent and easy to learn
* supporting the workflows of real users in our software

TechSonic
February 2nd, 2006, 06:24 PM
Linux is ready today. But here is the deal, ONLY IF I CAN GET MY MOM TO USE IT! Her Windows 2000 computer has been acting up, horridly bad. There isn't anything wrong with it's shutdown params, but yet it's locking up and Visual C++ applications are crashing non stop. I've reinstalled the OS half a dozen times and now I'm going to use Ubuntu 5.10 on it. Wish me luck, if I can teach her the basics, Linux is ready.

nocturn
February 3rd, 2006, 08:44 AM
Actually I did. No only here... I'm not crucifying people or offending them.


Maybe not, but the title of your post is somewhat inflamatory 'Using Linux? MAybe in 10 or 20 years...'. A lot of us (and this includes some end users) have been using Linux on our desktops for a while. It may not be ready for your particular setup, yet it works out of the box on the 6 systems I installed it on personally.



My point is: the more easier is Linux, the more users will migrate. Ubuntu is Linux for human beings. Maybe I'm a dog, a mule or a tree (maybe a ET). But as a human being (if I am one ;) ), I should be able to use it esily.


Yes, but the more users migrate, the more pressure on manufacturers to support Linux. Without at least a 10% market share, most will continue to ignore it.



Concerning buying hardware for Linux, this is not always possible. I just think that migrate to Linux should be easier.


I don't see why not. People do this for Mac's, for Solaris and to some degree for windows too (not all new hardware works on old windows versions and the other way arround).
If you shop for any piece of hardware, you may have 10-20 options, maybe 80% can be made to work under Linux, but 20% will have native (easy support). Why not just buy that? That's what I've been doing for 7+ years now and it is getting ever easier.

I bought a plextor DVD writer a couple of years ago, not only because it works in Linux but because I can even update the firmware in Linux.



I'm migrating little by little to OOo 2, even if I own a Office 2K license. I believe in open software. I just would like to be able to use it. You cannot disagree that many people find Linux too complicated and I Know this is a reason for not migrating. I know that it was much more complicated before and a lot of progress was made. Maybe I'm the unlucky one (hey, I'm not Kenny :mrgreen: ), but I still would like to live with the penguins \\:D/

That may be the best way. Convert to Free Software on Windows first and fix the hardware issues one by one. But I still recommend that if you ever want to go Linux all the way that you consider this in your next hardware purchases.

You must also remember that companies that get the feedback that good Linux support sells them more units will be more inclined to work with us (like Nvidia, though I'd like GPL'd drivers for them). Continuous support for the windows-only companies makes the problem worse.

nocturn
February 3rd, 2006, 08:55 AM
It automatically detects most hardware without the need to hunt down drivers

So Windows XP is not ready for the desktop.

I recently reinstalled a friend's machine (laptop). After the restore, It required 4-5 different CD's to get working (2 different CD's just for the printer) and a couple of driver downloads of the net (which was not up after install).
Out of the box, it had no printing, no wireless, no DVD writer support.

To add to the mess, it also had no applications installed after a 1+ hour install.
The lack of wireless support after the install also meant that the updates where not downloaded and installed, good thing it was behind an extra firewall.

An Ubuntu install on a new laptop took me 45-60 minutes with working wireless out of the box and the printer-drivers installed (just had to select the model).
After that 1 hour, it had a full complement of apps, it coudl write DVD's and was up-to-date.

poofyhairguy
February 3rd, 2006, 04:31 PM
Actually I did. No only here... I'm not crucifying people or offending them. My point is: the more easier is Linux, the more users will migrate. Ubuntu is Linux for human beings. Maybe I'm a dog, a mule or a tree (maybe a ET). But as a human being (if I am one ;) ), I should be able to use it esily.

You don't quite get it. "Linux for Human Beings" does not mean "this Linux is officially easy enough for any human to use." It means "this Linux is free to all humans." Ubuntu will even send the CDs to you.




Concerning buying hardware for Linux, this is not always possible. .

Name one category of (normal) hardware and I or someone else here will tell you a product in that category that will work with Linux. It IS possible to get Linux support, but YOU have to do the extra research needed to make it possible.

You don't want to do the extra research? Fine. Use Windows. We don't care. Just don't take the lazy route (aka not finding Linux compatible hardware) and then come in here and demand that everything should work for you. Life doesn't work this way.

If this was an Apple forum and you came and here and said "my Windows printer doesn't work with my Apple and it does not have any Apple drivers on its website but that is OSX's fault" they would probably ban you from their forum. We are nice around here, but please don't test our patience.


I just think that migrate to Linux should be easier.

Then get on top of it. Make some code or some guides to make it easier. With Ubuntu you are not a customer- you are a member of a community. That means unlike a customer you don't get to make any demands. If whats provided is not enough its up for you to provide it.

I wish you better luck in the future.

sabredog
February 3rd, 2006, 05:04 PM
I am a Linux newbie and tried several distros before settling in on Ubuntu 5.10 Breezy.

I purposely installed Ubuntu on my old Duron 1.3Ghz PC, adding a 20Gb HDD and an extra 512mb of RAM. Extensive online reading told me the best way to install a dual boot system was via a second HDD and this is what I did. So the Primary runs WinXP SP2 and the secondary runs Ubuntu and a common FAT32 drive. Everything is accessed via Grub at bootup.

Installation was 1 x CD only, followed by upgrade and running Arnieboy's most excellent Automatix, a three hour operation. Everything was detected and honed by further online upgrades except for my scanner, yes, a Canon D646U. This scanner will not even work on XP without Canon drivers which I could not find at the time! I downloaded those...eventually.

A Diamond Data scanner though, was autodetected along with the Nvidia Gforce2 MX220 video card and a wireless USB MS mouse.

Ubuntu almost set Samba up for me automatically and thus my HP 6L laser via my WinXP LAN network.

In comparison, I recently rebuilt my sister's XP PC and after installation, about a dozen CD's swapped in and out of the CD-ROM to get all the software and drivers installed. A four hour operation with a lot more user intervention on my part than the Ubuntu installation.

Installation of Ubuntu Linux on my PC and my son's new P4 has been flawless. Next installation? No problem!

carlosqueso
February 3rd, 2006, 05:26 PM
http://www.aquarionics.com/article/name/Making_the_Lexmark_Z515_work_under_Debian_Linux

Is what I found googling for your printer. I don't know how well it'll work, but I'd reccomend giving it a try...I'm not even gonna mess with scanners, because the last time I tried to set one up (in windows even) it would only scan everything in green, so setting up scanners=attack of the martians ;)

kewl1uk
February 3rd, 2006, 06:31 PM
It means that if you use the default configuration after checking that hardware is compatible and you've found it is compatible then it will work without problems. But if you try to tweak it you're out on your own.

weasel fierce
February 3rd, 2006, 06:59 PM
If it has minesweeper

aysiu
February 3rd, 2006, 07:00 PM
Clearly there's no agreed-upon definition. Look at the poll results--they're all over the place. That's why "ready for the desktop" is a useless phrase.

Lainse
February 3rd, 2006, 07:27 PM
I'm a recently amateur when it comes to computers. I am also a lazy person. Thus, I honestly do hate windows. Windows systems have always given me trouble, even when I did nothing to alter the settings or anything. My conversations in college would go like this:
"Well my computer is doing *insert random idiot problem*"
Computer genius friend: " well are you doing this?"
Me " No"
Friend" This?"
Me " No"
and after much pondering, my friend would simply shrug his or her shoulders and say that sometimes window just " Does things" like that.
A few years later, I got married, and my husband took over my old desk top. The desk top was at that time, running like crap. I'd defragged, ran scans, done everything short of wiping all the crap clean because I had a lot of stuff I had to save. Eventually I let him put linux on it..and guess what..my computer runs fine now.
Now my lap top, which is only a year old, was giving me stupid awful problems. Norton would scan everything under the sun, windows wouldn't like certain things so it would harrass me to do things that honestly, I didn't think it needed to do.
Eventually, the archive registry crashed, and I lost everything. In frustration, I had my husband put ubuntu on my lap top, and its working like a dream. It's easy for me to figure out, I get all the software I need, and I don't have to worry about stupid updates or virus protection or such.

so when is a system ready for a desktop?

When a complete computer idiot like me can use it without any thinking at all.

prizrak
February 3rd, 2006, 07:29 PM
If we say that "ready for the desktop" means that it does what I want easily than no OS is. Because I want a Matrix style interface to my computer, just imagine DOOM on that ;)

madsere
February 3rd, 2006, 08:36 PM
... not having to go through 83 pages (701 posts) in order to install a simple display driver from the market leader (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=75074)

aysiu
February 3rd, 2006, 08:56 PM
... not having to go through 83 pages (701 posts) in order to install a simple display driver from the market leader (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=75074) Why did you have to go through all 701 posts? The first post worked just fine for me.

So, by your criteria, Ubuntu isn't "ready for the desktop" but Mepis is?

tico
February 4th, 2006, 03:57 AM
http://www.aquarionics.com/article/name/Making_the_Lexmark_Z515_work_under_Debian_Linux

Is what I found googling for your printer. I don't know how well it'll work, but I'd reccomend giving it a try...I'm not even gonna mess with scanners, because the last time I tried to set one up (in windows even) it would only scan everything in green, so setting up scanners=attack of the martians ;)


Thanks to all people who replied. This has made me to try deeper this time. I hope I can get your help to setup my machine. I think that with some time and work both the scanner and the printer will work (the scanner is supported by the latest sane; I just need to learn to install it, since I'm getting some errors - surely because of my ignorance. As some people pointed out, I need to relearn things to use a new OS). I'll bother you again with my limitations, believe me :mrgreen:

madsere
February 4th, 2006, 04:56 AM
The point is that with that number of posts it obviously isn't as simple as some would like it to be.

Did I say anything about Mepis? I don't think so, just offered my comment on Ubuntu. If you don't like feedback it's a bad idea to post a vote.

Incidentally, I have a NVIDIA FX5700LE with an LG L1780Q. Tried following the second option to install drivers for it but it just crashed gdm.

madsere
February 4th, 2006, 11:37 AM
Next stop: Skype.

Downloaded Skype for ubuntu from skype.com. Seems to miss a Qt library. No explanation as to where to find that. After searching high and low found two Wiki Howto's here, neither of which solved the problem. Found a suggestion to download an rpm package and convert that to .deb using an "alien" package - problem is alien doesn't exist, nor is it found with the synaptic packet manager (which, btw, had to be reconfigured from another forum posts).

I'm not a Linux newbie, I have worked with *nix systems from before Linus thought up Linux and with Redhat Linux on servers for years. I've always held back moving to Linux on the desktop as I didn't think it was ready for it yet but though perhaps now is the time.

After some 12 hours fiddling to install my fairly standard hardware, and failing to install the most common software necessary I think the conclusion must be that Linux is just still not "ready for the desktop". It's improving, clearly, but it's definitely not there yet.

aysiu
February 4th, 2006, 06:04 PM
problem is alien doesn't exist, nor is it found with the synaptic packet manager I beg to differ.


After some 12 hours fiddling to install my fairly standard hardware, and failing to install the most common software necessary I think the conclusion must be that Linux is just still not "ready for the desktop". It's improving, clearly, but it's definitely not there yet. You mean after you'd already made up your mind that it wasn't, you decided to "prove" your own theory. Maybe instead of scolding me, you should realize that Ubuntu is not Linux. It's an operating system based on the Linux kernel. Mepis does everything you want, but you don't care about that, because you're too busy trying to prove your own theory. There are many Linux distributions, and they have their own strengths and limitations.

Ubuntu won't miss you. Have fun with whatever you do.

Stormy Eyes
February 4th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Downloaded Skype for ubuntu from skype.com. Seems to miss a Qt library. No explanation as to where to find that. After searching high and low found two Wiki Howto's here, neither of which solved the problem. Found a suggestion to download an rpm package and convert that to .deb using an "alien" package - problem is alien doesn't exist, nor is it found with the synaptic packet manager (which, btw, had to be reconfigured from another forum posts).

There are howtos for installing Skype all over this forum. The fact that you did not read or follow any of them is your problem, not Ubuntu's.

mstlyevil
February 4th, 2006, 09:14 PM
Next stop: Skype.

Downloaded Skype for ubuntu from skype.com. Seems to miss a Qt library. No explanation as to where to find that. After searching high and low found two Wiki Howto's here, neither of which solved the problem. Found a suggestion to download an rpm package and convert that to .deb using an "alien" package - problem is alien doesn't exist, nor is it found with the synaptic packet manager (which, btw, had to be reconfigured from another forum posts).

I'm not a Linux newbie, I have worked with *nix systems from before Linus thought up Linux and with Redhat Linux on servers for years. I've always held back moving to Linux on the desktop as I didn't think it was ready for it yet but though perhaps now is the time.

After some 12 hours fiddling to install my fairly standard hardware, and failing to install the most common software necessary I think the conclusion must be that Linux is just still not "ready for the desktop". It's improving, clearly, but it's definitely not there yet.

You also did not bother to mention Automatix which installs skype for you along with a lot of popular packages and codecs. Alien can be installed through synaptic and by the terminal once you enable extra repositories. (Which by the way Automatix does for you.) Just because you refuse to actually research and read the various how-to's on this forum and the wiki or man pages does not mean that is most peoples experience.

aysiu
February 4th, 2006, 09:26 PM
Alien can be installed through synaptic and by the terminal once you enable extra repositories. Believe it or not, it's actually in the standard Ubuntu repositories. You don't have to enable any extra repositories to get alien to show up in Synaptic. You just have to click the Reload button.

mstlyevil
February 4th, 2006, 09:28 PM
Believe it or not, it's actually in the standard Ubuntu repositories. You don't have to enable any extra repositories to get alien to show up in Synaptic. You just have to click the Reload button.

Kewl, you learn something new every day.

madsere
February 5th, 2006, 06:41 AM
1) I did check the howto's available for skype, none worked. I eventually did get it working not thanks to the howtos but man it is UGLY. Yes I corrected the huge ugly KDE fontsize but it is still ugly. Never got it to actually work though, i.e. able to make a connection.

2) No I hadn't "made up my mind already". I gave it an honest go. I'm not shooting it down, just giving your my honest opinion in reply to the thread topic. Obviously you have similarly made up your mind that Ubuntu is faultless and ready for prime time and don't want to hear the truth.

3) Thanks for mentionning automatix, yet another way to confuse users. How about just getting one interface to work instead of splitting up into all those different tools to do one thing?

Anyway, have fun. I'll stay with RedHat on my servers, Windows and OSX on my desktop and perhaps check the Ubunto camp in again in another years time. That is, assuming it's still around.

aysiu
February 5th, 2006, 06:46 AM
Please show me where anyone has indicated Ubuntu is faultless.

In the meantime, give Mepis a go, seriously. It's a great distro, and it sounds as if it's right up your alley--it comes with NVidia drivers, which can be installed easily (and graphically--point and click), and it also comes with Skype already installed.

mstlyevil
February 5th, 2006, 07:06 AM
1) I did check the howto's available for skype, none worked. I eventually did get it working not thanks to the howtos but man it is UGLY. Yes I corrected the huge ugly KDE fontsize but it is still ugly. Never got it to actually work though, i.e. able to make a connection.

2) No I hadn't "made up my mind already". I gave it an honest go. I'm not shooting it down, just giving your my honest opinion in reply to the thread topic. Obviously you have similarly made up your mind that Ubuntu is faultless and ready for prime time and don't want to hear the truth.

3) Thanks for mentionning automatix, yet another way to confuse users. How about just getting one interface to work instead of splitting up into all those different tools to do one thing?

Anyway, have fun. I'll stay with RedHat on my servers, Windows and OSX on my desktop and perhaps check the Ubunto camp in again in another years time. That is, assuming it's still around.

This is my final reply to your post. I think you should read this thread.

Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll (http://http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017)

WalterDirt
February 22nd, 2006, 10:56 PM
I should preface that I'm not a computer noob, I've been programming since 1995 (web backends). I've built my own PC systems since before that. Since Redhat 6 or something I've been always checking in with the linux world, desperately waiting for an OS replacement. But I been stuck with Windows instead.

Recently I made a switch to move to Linux completely. I deleted the XP partition and installed Breezy (gnome).

When it comes down to it, Linux (Ubuntu) whatever is a very stable OS. My impressions of how far Xwindows, the window managers, Gnome, KDE have come along is great. The apt-get system of packages is so far superior to the rpm method I remember that I wouldn't touch an rpm if someone paid me.

However, its all the other software that is horribly lacking. In fact most of the time its atrocious.

Here are some irratating issues:

1. No Great Media/MP3 Player
I've tried just about all of them, none of them do exactly what I want.
BMP doesn't have a media manager.
BMPx runs slow and has messed up fonts on my system.
Amarok, while holding a lot of potential, just seems so counterintuitive to use, looking at the features list it looks like the end all, but then you load it up and I'm gassed.
RhythmBox seems great at first, and I would use it, but it locks down my system when I attempt to add my networked mp3 library of a lot of songs.

Where is the winamp for linux? It takes approximately 2MB of system resources when minimized, and pops up the media list in a split instant.

2. No Pro Image Editing
Gimp? No thanks, I've tried it, I really have given it an honest try. It's good, but lightyears from Photoshop.

3. ATI drivers, dual monitors, special configurations.
What a pain in the **** to setup, yea finally I got it after many days.

4. Wine or VMware
Yeah I'm sure many of you are thinking, why not just get wine and run some of your XP apps. I can't think of a better argument against linux software than wine. You might as well just have all the linux developers stop working on apps, and have them create a fully working XP compatability layer and only run windows software. Or better yet, just go buy XP.

I want to cut windows out of my life completely.

5. Usability
There is no usability, no continuity between programs, the user experience is that of four year old with ADD after 3 cups of coffee. Every program is completely different, sometimes you click this for preferences other times you right click. You just never know, nothing is intuitive. I would say this is probably because the free software doesn't have the corporate development process and departments. Its just some programmers who want something to work, they aren't thinking of the users experience, and if they do, they simply do not posses the expertise.

6. Binary Newsgroups
Nothing as stable as NewsBin Pro. Pan is great, I love it, powerful program. So why does it consistently crash when I attempt to load up 8,000,000 headers. NewsBin Pro works on those same groups flawlessly. Yes I know its a lot of headers. But I also know NewsBin Pro has no trouble at all with it, I don't want to settle for less.

7. Firewall?
I haven't spent much time looking for a personal software firewall. But Firestarter that comes with ubuntu is not it. I want to know when an application communicates with the internet and allow/disallow. Like Tiny software firewall for windows.


It seems that if you a very basic user, browsing the web, instant messaging, getting a few emails Ubuntu can very easily replace XP/OSX.

I don't know, maybe I'm still trying to force things the Windows way, and I'm getting some serious withdrawl symptoms. But I am just not happy with majority of the software choices out there. So I end up searching and downloading programs until I find something stable and usable. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, and its all growing pains, let's hope.

You have to understand I want to love linux, I really do, I want to make it my baby, the software out there just irritates me.

Feel much better after getting all of that out. Wheew!

Jessehk
February 22nd, 2006, 10:59 PM
I agree with many of your points.

Brunellus
February 22nd, 2006, 11:00 PM
Don't be a menace to ubuntu while drinkin' your juice n da hood.

WalterDirt
February 22nd, 2006, 11:09 PM
I'm not being a troll, I'm simply venting my conversion frustrations. Jeez, not everyone that complains about some portion of Linux is a troll.

Get over it already.

-Rick-
February 22nd, 2006, 11:10 PM
1. No Great Media/MP3 Player
I've tried just about all of them, none of them do exactly what I want.
BMP doesn't have a media manager.
BMPx runs slow and has messed up fonts on my system.
Amarok, while holding a lot of potential, just seems so counterintuitive to use, looking at the features list it looks like the end all, but then you load it up and I'm gassed.
RhythmBox seems great at first, and I would use it, but it locks down my system when I attempt to add my networked mp3 library of a lot of songs.

I don't have any probs with amaroK...but there are others to such as Listen and Muine.



2. No Pro Image Editing
Gimp? No thanks, I've tried it, I really have given it an honest try. It's good, but lightyears from Photoshop.

You could try this: http://www.kanzelsberger.com/pixel/?page_id=12


5. Usability
There is no usability, no continuity between programs, the user experience is that of four year old with ADD after 3 cups of coffee. Every program is completely different, sometimes you click this for preferences other times you right click. You just never know, nothing is intuitive. I would say this is probably because the free software doesn't have the corporate development process and departments. Its just some programmers who want something to work, they aren't thinking of the users experience, and if they do, they simply do not posses the expertise.

Tried Kubuntu?



6. Binary Newsgroups
Nothing as stable as NewsBin Pro. Pan is great, I love it, powerful program. So why does it consistently crash when I attempt to load up 8,000,000 headers. NewsBin Pro works on those same groups flawlessly. Yes I know its a lot of headers. But I also know NewsBin Pro has no trouble at all with it, I don't want to settle for less.

klibido does the job for me.

xequence
February 22nd, 2006, 11:12 PM
1. No Great Media/MP3 Player

I wish foobar2000 was on linux since it is the best music player ever, so, yea.


Where is the winamp for linux? It takes approximately 2MB of system resources when minimized, and pops up the media list in a split instant.

There is one, I dont know what its called, but it is a winamp clone.


2. No Pro Image Editing

OH NOES


3. ATI drivers, dual monitors, special configurations.

Poofy probably has a guide on dual monitors.


4. Wine or VMware

VMware pwns, and it is more used in windows then it is in linux just to let you know.


Every program is completely different,

YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING. Every gnome program is constant with the gnome look, and every KDE program is constant with the KDE look. KDE is AMAZING at integrating programs and stuff.



6. Binary Newsgroups

None of the windows programs I have tried have worked...


7. Firewall?

Makes your computer slow on any OS, dont need it.

But all that isnt the point. Dont like linux software? Dont use linux. I dont care. I want everyone to use whatever OS works for them.

poofyhairguy
February 22nd, 2006, 11:14 PM
I'm not being a troll, I'm simply venting my conversion frustrations. Jeez, not everyone that complains about some portion of Linux is a troll.

Get over it already.

That might be true that you are just blowing off steam, but using the word "sucks" in your title is going to eventually make this thread nasty enough I'll have to move it to the backyard.

So I changed the title. Now the thread has a chance to not end up there.

Qrk
February 22nd, 2006, 11:16 PM
5. Usability
There is no usability, no continuity between programs, the user experience is that of four year old with ADD after 3 cups of coffee. Every program is completely different, sometimes you click this for preferences other times you right click. You just never know, nothing is intuitive. I would say this is probably because the free software doesn't have the corporate development process and departments. Its just some programmers who want something to work, they aren't thinking of the users experience, and if they do, they simply do not posses the expertise.

There is a ton of usability such as this in either Gnome, KDE or XFCE. I find Gnome extremely intuitive, with KDE and XFCE being right up there. The goal of all these projects is a set of programs that conform to the same standards. I don't understand how you could have a problem with this unless you mixed the two.

And did you ever try XMMS?



My advise to you... Reinstall windows, but come back to Linux next year. You may be surprised about how fast it is devoloped. Indeed, if you compare Dapper with Warty, you'll be amazed at what a year can do.

WalterDirt
February 22nd, 2006, 11:18 PM
Thanks for the Pixel Image Editor suggestions, looks pretty good, thanks.

Brunellus
February 22nd, 2006, 11:18 PM
I'm not being a troll, I'm simply venting my conversion frustrations. Jeez, not everyone that complains about some portion of Linux is a troll.

Get over it already.
Many of your points are of course valid: user interfaces could be better, yes. Hardware support could *definitely* be better, especially with graphics cards.
(blame the latter on the hardware vendors for inadequate driver support, incidentally).

But you will be met with very weary responses from many here, myself included, when you start complaining about the lack of "pro" anything. Usually, a rant like that means something closer to "I really want the applications I already know how to use very well in this new operating system." Unfortunately, the fact that those applications haven't been ported over yet isn't Linux's fault. If those applications that you require are absolutely necessary to the way that you work, please use an operating system that allows you to be productive.

I hate to sound hostile, but I have frankly had it with the "ready for the desktop" argument. The OS is either ready for YOU, or it isn't. In the end, you will determine whether its' "ready" for your desktop or not. If you have determined that it isn't, you're also free to run whatever software you want to run.

WalterDirt
February 22nd, 2006, 11:21 PM
There is a ton of usability such as this in either Gnome, KDE or XFCE. I find Gnome extremely intuitive, with KDE and XFCE being right up there. The goal of all these projects is a set of programs that conform to the same standards. I don't understand how you could have a problem with this unless you mixed the two.

And did you ever try XMMS?

My advise to you... Reinstall windows, but come back to Linux next year. You may be surprised about how fast it is devoloped. Indeed, if you compare Dapper with Warty, you'll be amazed at what a year can do.

Yes I've mixed the two, since you can run KDE on gnome, that's what bugs me, all of a sudden instead of the gnome theme and layout I'm presented with something very different (KDE).

I have tried XMMS, and its good, but no media library manager.

I'm done with Windows so its Linux for me.

KiwiNZ
February 22nd, 2006, 11:23 PM
Remember folks constructive criticism is a gift.

gord
February 22nd, 2006, 11:24 PM
you should also note that linux and its programs isn't a 'finished project' if you will, they are in constant in development. if you don't like something then maybe you should get involved and help things out, thats the thing about free open source stuff, if you don't like it you can't really complain, just help.

plus i think you are mainly looking for windows programs on linux, linux works in a diffirent way n the programs end up going a diffirent way. i think the fact that we all/most of us here use linux (and its programs) on a very regular basis shows that it can't all be as bad as your making out. i for one am very happy :)

DrFunkenstein
February 22nd, 2006, 11:28 PM
Oh, someone didn't get his por..., eh important data from binary newsgroups and now linux sucks. How terrible.

EDITED

Stealth
February 22nd, 2006, 11:32 PM
No Great Media/MP3 Player

Hmmm...I love Amarok, and its quick and simple enough for me to use, even under Gnome. I use Winamp a LOT and the only thing Winamp has over Amarok (in my usage) is some plugins (like playing SNES soundtrack rips in RSN format) and visualizations, which to be honest, I don't use that much...


No Pro Image Editing

True...I await for Crossover Office 6 and its support for Photoshop CS


ATI drivers, dual monitors, special configurations.

Also true, but in some of those speical configurations, there are guides around here to help a lot...


4. Wine or VMware
I want to cut windows out of my life completely.

One day...;)


Usability
I have to strongly disagree as every program that Ubuntu comes with integrates wonderfully with one another. As someone else stated, Gnome and KDE apps integrate into their corresponding environments superbly...


Binary Newsgroups
I'm not a heavy Newsgroup guy, but I know that I signed up on 2 python ones in Mozilla Thunderbird :D


Firewall?
Never bothered to actually use one, but Firestarter seems to be the most recommended, but seeing as how you don't like it...nvm ^_^


It seems that if you a very basic user, browsing the web, instant messaging, getting a few emails Ubuntu can very easily replace XP/OSX.

Indeed!


You have to understand I want to love linux, I really do, I want to make it my baby, the software out there just irritates me.

A lot of us are in the same boat. I still use Windows cuz of Photoshop, Flash, and some games like Battlefield 2...but as soon as these apps start working in Linux (be it under Wine or natively)

WalterDirt
February 22nd, 2006, 11:32 PM
Many of your points are of course valid: user interfaces could be better, yes. Hardware support could *definitely* be better, especially with graphics cards.
(blame the latter on the hardware vendors for inadequate driver support, incidentally).

But you will be met with very weary responses from many here, myself included, when you start complaining about the lack of "pro" anything. Usually, a rant like that means something closer to "I really want the applications I already know how to use very well in this new operating system." Unfortunately, the fact that those applications haven't been ported over yet isn't Linux's fault. If those applications that you require are absolutely necessary to the way that you work, please use an operating system that allows you to be productive.

I hate to sound hostile, but I have frankly had it with the "ready for the desktop" argument. The OS is either ready for YOU, or it isn't. In the end, you will determine whether its' "ready" for your desktop or not. If you have determined that it isn't, you're also free to run whatever software you want to run.

It didn't come off hostile, and I understand just by looking at your bean count that you are obviously very active in the community so you've seen the arguments presented before. That's why you quickly respond with the troll alert.

I for one, haven't, I'm new to all this. I follow the the news closely and article after blog all the raving about how ready Linux is, you can't help but get your expectations soaring. Sometimes people need to blow off some steam. So where does that leave me. I'm appalled by the licensing that Microsoft has taken to the point where I've sworn them off, throw in security attacks, viruses, and its easy to come to the conclusion of abandoning windows.

So where does that leave me? I'm not about to plunk down $4000 for a Mac that I'm not certain I want or will like, especially while they are in the middle of an archeticture change.

So my other educated option is to go with Linux. Your reply comes off as "tuff s**t, you gotta deal with all our issues too." Maybe I just needed to read that, but that doesn't make me any happier. It also doesn't make the software any better.

WalterDirt
February 22nd, 2006, 11:38 PM
Oh, someone didn't get his por..., eh important data from binary newsgroups and now linux sucks. How terrible.

Go away troll, you are pathetic.

Actually, its an episode of Arrested Development that is deeply buried on my server. With the other thing you mentioned, you never need to download that many headers there's always plenty more.

/oh and about calling me a troll.. sticks and stones buddy

KiwiNZ
February 22nd, 2006, 11:44 PM
Oh, someone didn't get his por..., eh important data from binary newsgroups and now linux sucks. How terrible.

EDITED

Thanks for the edit on this post Poofy.

Now anymore insults etc in this thread and it will be moved to the backyard and or locked. Please remember our rules.

Thankyou

DrFunkenstein
February 22nd, 2006, 11:45 PM
Thanx for editing my post dear mods.

Alpha_toxic
February 22nd, 2006, 11:55 PM
About the media players:
Well I find amaroK and Kaffeine superior to most media players for Windows. Especially WMP... (the only real match for those 2 are Winamp and QCD for audio and (my personal favorite) Crystal Player for video)

About the consistency of the UI of different apps:
Recently I've been using allmost only native KDE aps and they are as consistant as humanly posible. I even changed Opera's skin to match the Keramik theme and it all looks great.

WalterDirt
February 22nd, 2006, 11:58 PM
Nope, just a guy with a computer trying to make heads or tails of linux.

prizrak
February 23rd, 2006, 12:03 AM
So my other educated option is to go with Linux. Your reply comes off as "tuff s**t, you gotta deal with all our issues too." Maybe I just needed to read that, but that doesn't make me any happier. It also doesn't make the software any better.
Well that's basically what you have to do. It's not a Linux feature it's any OS, in Windows you have to deal with viruses and spyware, in Mac you have to deal with Apple hardware and the last window of application closing not exiting the application (dumbest thing in the world). There is no perfect OS for everyone you basically choose what you like better based on it's good sides and more or less deal with the bad (kinda like a relationship).

DrFunkenstein
February 23rd, 2006, 12:06 AM
Thanks for editing my post again, dear mods. Really hardwarming to see that you are not allowed to say that someone is trolling, especially considering that there is even a sticky on this forum entitled:Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll.

Talk about consistency. Well done, you guys rock.:rolleyes:

maruchan
February 23rd, 2006, 12:18 AM
You have to understand I want to love linux, I really do, I want to make it my baby, the software out there just irritates me.

Be glad you aren't tucked into a deeper niche like architecture or music composition. :)

Linux is beautiful for a lot of reasons, but right now, commercial software ain't one of 'em. So, I'd find another reason to love it if you really want to make it your baby. And yes, there are other reasons. For me:

-I can get faster 3D renders in Linux
-I can multitask better (esp. when doing the above) in Linux
-I can run away from Windows when it pisses me off
-I can run away from OS X when it pisses me off
-The Open Source aesthetic is very beautiful: I can witness masses of people trying to be constructive together in their spare time, which is getting less and less common these days
-I can use desktop environments and file managers that honestly beat out Windows' equivalent in *so* many ways
-Ditto for OS X :)

If you really want to make Linux your baby, stop feeding the problems and do what you can to create a solution. Not that I'm ragging on you; it's just what worked for me. I would start with that newsreader issue...I'll bet there's a solution for it somewhere...

aysiu
February 23rd, 2006, 12:19 AM
Thanks for editing my post again, dear mods. Really hardwarming to see that you are not allowed to say that someone is trolling, especially considering that there is even a sticky on this forum entitled:Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll.

Talk about consistency. Well done, you guys rock.:rolleyes: Author of the aforementioned sticky right here.

You're very quick to be sarcastic and judgmental of the supposed hypocrisy of the forum staff, and I'll just say three things about that:

1. Forum staff are human beings. They're fallible. And you know what? If you were a forum staff member, you too would still be fallible and not 100% consistent. The staff use their best judgment and consult each other as to what best to do in a situation.

2. These forums have rules, and the forum staff try to enforce those rules. No matter what certain people think, you are not entitled to "free speech" on a privately owned and privately funded forum. If you want to say whatever you want without "censorship," get your own forum.

3. My stickied thread is deliberately vague as to whom it's describing. It does not call any one particular user a troll. It's describing a general phenomenon.

To the original post-er, I'm sorry to hear you think the software available for Linux doesn't suit your needs. Sometimes it's therapeutic to blow off steam and vent a little. Now that you've got that off your chest, though, there's only so much you can do. I'd recommend one or more of the following:

1. Develop. Help make those applications better.
2. File bug reports. Help make those applications better.
3. Donate money. Help make those applications better.
4. Provide documentation. Help new users use those applications.
5. Use Windows.
6. Use something else.

DrFunkenstein
February 23rd, 2006, 12:23 AM
1. Forum staff are human beings. They're fallible. And you know what? If you were a forum staff member, you too would still be fallible and not 100% consistent. The staff use their best judgment and consult each other as to what best to do in a situation.

Where did I doubt this? However, does that mean I have to agree with them?



2. These forums have rules, and the forum staff try to enforce those rules. No matter what certain people think, you are not entitled to "free speech" on a privately owned and privately funded forum. If you want to say whatever you want without "censorship," get your own forum.

Again, where did I say anything to the contrary? Do you enjoy fighting windmills?



3. My stickied thread is deliberately vague as to whom it's describing. It does not call any one particular user a troll. It's describing a general phenomenon.
So, vaguely and generally attacking people is better than calling someone specific a troll and pointing out why I think calling him this is justified? Interesting.

And btw., judging from the discussion in your thread, there were several people who felt attacked by it.

WalterDirt
February 23rd, 2006, 12:38 AM
Re: maruchen
There's a lot about linux I do enjoy. It's all new, and its a lot to take in, especially since I need to use A LOT of different programs for work and personal use.

Re: Funkenstein
If this thread is going to be about who is a troll and what stickied thread said what about some guy who doesn't like any criticism then please close it, print it out and burn it.

alfonz
February 23rd, 2006, 12:44 AM
We all need to get along and just Dual boot ;)

GazaM
February 23rd, 2006, 01:11 AM
WalterDirt, don't worry about the 0.01% of this community who are a bit too quick to become agressive, I promise you the rest of us aren't so unfriendly. Everyone has things that make them love linux and things that sometimes agitate them about linux.

Your points are all valid, I especially agree with the whole proprietary software arguments, but unfortunately all we can do about that issue is nag to the software developers, or simply get cracking on some Open Source code and make our software better. There are many small, simple things which I feel would improve my own and others experience with linux... what can I do about it? I decided I'd learn to program and at the moment I'm pretty far into Python, just brushing up on my pygtk skills. Hopefully I'll go onto do C and more (C# is very interesting at the moment). Once I get that down, you can be damn sure that I'll be on some developer mailing lists helping to bring our Open Source software to an even higher level. I'm also extremely interested in graphic design / art, so I'll hopefully be contributing some stuff to the community in that neck of the woods too (tango and gtk theming are two things I've been wanting to contribute to for a while now, once i get the free time).

In the end, the thing that always brings me back to linux, ubuntu especially, is the community... It's amazing at just how friendly and helpful that 99.99% can be. I hope your brief encounter with one or two elitists didn't turn you off. In any case, if you, like the majority of linux users nowadays, can't and have no interest in writing programs, then simply sit back and enjoy the ride. I discovered linux at the end of Warty's lifespan, and it's amazing how much has been done in that short time.

Stormy Eyes
February 23rd, 2006, 02:46 AM
Where is the winamp for linux? It takes approximately 2MB of system resources when minimized, and pops up the media list in a split instant.

Well, there's XMMS (sudo apt-get install xmms), but you might dislike it for the same reasons you dislike BMP. There's also ZINF (sudo apt-get install zinf), but I don't know if anybody still works on it.


Gimp? No thanks, I've tried it, I really have given it an honest try. It's good, but lightyears from Photoshop.

If you're a graphics dude, I suppose Adobe's tools are a requirement, but don't blame Ubuntu for Adobe's reluctance to port their products, please.


What a pain in the **** to setup, yea finally I got it after many days.

Well, ATI's drivers suck like a starry-eyed American teenager trying to get her first record deal. Again, that's not really Ubuntu's fault, but ATI's. Would you blame Microsoft if ATI's Windows drivers were crap?


I want to cut windows out of my life completely.

Right on. That's why I've dealt with Linux's quirks since 1999. Trust me; the system has progressed in the last 7 years.


There is no usability, no continuity between programs, the user experience is that of four year old with ADD after 3 cups of coffee.

Come on, name some names here. Which programs are you talking about? GNOME (the default UI for Ubuntu) has spent the last two years working on improving its UI and has published a set of human interface guidelines.

If you're having trouble with certain apps, name them and tell us what's wrong. I'm willing to help if you're willing to meet me halfway by asking specific questions. Griping isn't going to get you anywhere or win you any sympathy.


I would say this is probably because the free software doesn't have the corporate development process and departments. Its just some programmers who want something to work, they aren't thinking of the users experience, and if they do, they simply do not posses the expertise.

I disagree. Free software might not be structured in its development as tightly as proprietary software, but if you develop for a major desktop environment like GNOME or KDE, then there are still standards you are expected to implement.


So why does it consistently crash when I attempt to load up 8,000,000 headers. NewsBin Pro works on those same groups flawlessly. Yes I know its a lot of headers. But I also know NewsBin Pro has no trouble at all with it, I don't want to settle for less.

File a bug report. (https://launchpad.net/malone) It's not reasonable to expect developers to fix problems they don't know about.


I want to know when an application communicates with the internet and allow/disallow. Like Tiny software firewall for windows.

I don't think you really need this under Linux. There aren't that many "services" communicating to the outside that are installed by default. I think that the only services installed by default that can talk to the outside are X11 (window system) and postfix (SMTP daemon). Their default configs both forbid communication with the outside, however. Most user-level apps, to my knowledge, communicate along port 80, which is the standard port for HTTP traffic.


I don't know, maybe I'm still trying to force things the Windows way, and I'm getting some serious withdrawl symptoms.

It happens. If you had posted here before you installed, I personally would have advised you to try the bootable LiveCD, so that you can check Linux out without committing yourself.


But I am just not happy with majority of the software choices out there. So I end up searching and downloading programs until I find something stable and usable. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, and its all growing pains, let's hope.

How exactly are you searching and downloading? If you're not careful about how you go about installing things, you can break your system. You're using Synaptic, right?


You have to understand I want to love linux, I really do, I want to make it my baby, the software out there just irritates me.

Sometimes it irritates me too, but I remind myself that I'm not paying for any of it. As it is, I'm getting a lot more than I paid for with Linux.

prizrak
February 23rd, 2006, 03:06 AM
Well, ATI's drivers suck like a starry-eyed American teenager trying to get her first record deal. Again, that's not really Ubuntu's fault, but ATI's. Would you blame Microsoft if ATI's Windows drivers were crap?
ATI drivers are complete sh*t on both platforms, and I suspect on OS X as well.

fuscia
February 23rd, 2006, 03:46 AM
i'm not an intensive graphics person, so for me, gimp is great. in fact, when one wishes to place the head of a friend on the body of a tranny, i find gimp superior.

the 'counterintuitive' argument, to me, is nonsense. 'counter-habitual' is more like it. that, of course, applies to anything, not just linux apps.

ice60
February 23rd, 2006, 06:35 AM
can you tell me what you think of this? it's in synaptic.
http://firehol.sourceforge.net/

poofyhairguy
February 23rd, 2006, 07:58 AM
Thanks for editing my post again, dear mods. Really hardwarming to see that you are not allowed to say that someone is trolling, especially considering that there is even a sticky on this forum entitled:Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll.

Talk about consistency. Well done, you guys rock.:rolleyes:

You can say someone is trolling if you do it nicely. As in "this post seems like you were trolling a little, was that your intention?" Not "you are a troll, go away now!"

Of course if the thread gets bad enough it gets moved to the backyard and I stop editing out any animosity.

prizrak
February 23rd, 2006, 08:11 AM
can you tell me what you think of this? it's in synaptic.
http://firehol.sourceforge.net/
Don't seem that much different from Firestarter

DrFunkenstein
February 23rd, 2006, 08:25 AM
You can say someone is trolling if you do it nicely. As in "this post seems like you were trolling a little, was that your intention?" Not "you are a troll, go away now!"

Of course if the thread gets bad enough it gets moved to the backyard and I stop editing out any animosity.
Ah, I see.
So, let's give it a try.

I can't help but get the feeling after reading the original post, especially the well founded, expertly argued part about usability, that the OP is trolling a little. May I inquire if that was the intention of the OP?

poofyhairguy
February 23rd, 2006, 08:38 AM
I can't help but get the feeling after reading the original post, especially the well founded, expertly argued part about usability, that the OP is trolling a little. May I inquire if that was the intention of the OP?

I would never edit a post like that one!

BoyOfDestiny
February 23rd, 2006, 09:23 AM
Hmm... well I won't go point by point. I will say a lot of the multimedia issues are no longers issues in dapper.

As for pan, use the cvs version (the forum has a how to).

Configuring monitors etc... I don't have dual screens etc, but anything that requires messing with xorg manually needs improvement (for those who enjoy point and click).

As for being intuitive... everything gtk I've used is. Anyway I guess it's different for everyone, but I've never had to use anything beyond a readme or faq for gui apps (man for commands). What inconsistencies have you found? I find majority of the shortcuts are the same, and the file menu is always on the left. I feel very at home.

Also, I feel the same way you do about rpms, the only plus side is that's what taught me to compile :).

GIMP does what I need it to, which is basically scanning, croping, rotating, fixing up images, etc... Modest requirements... Can you list specifically what is lacking?

Anyway, good luck and at least with open source you have a lot of choices and control, you could fork a project, or try bounties/donations to implement a feature that is lacking, or of course do it yourself. Sky's the limit.

biguns
February 23rd, 2006, 11:04 AM
Just a quick point for the OP...

Linux had me at hello, I was hooked from my first Redhat install. But to truly appreciate Linux I had to make a conscious effort to de-windows-tize myself. After that, the whole Linux world just opened up to me. It was hard to do, especially since I'm a windows network administrator, even got my Windows 2003 MCSE. But I figured out that it's exactly like when I had to learn German. To be great at it, I had to learn to stop thinking in English. Once you realize that, the rest it pretty easy. Well, I can't really say it's easy but it is a lot more fun.

Sure there are a few things that I need windows for, mainly programming in C#, but so be it, it's not that bad. Thats why I have two girlfriends, separately they are lacking essential characteristics, but having both of them is very satisfying.

Kerberos
February 23rd, 2006, 12:40 PM
3. My stickied thread is deliberately vague as to whom it's describing. It does not call any one particular user a troll. It's describing a general phenomenon.

I am fairly sure it is deliberatley vague in describing me. \\:D/

Leo_01
February 23rd, 2006, 12:49 PM
you gotta to have a open mind while using linux.
You just gotta accept how most users use linux.

Kerberos
February 23rd, 2006, 01:02 PM
you gotta to have a open mind while using linux.
You just gotta accept how most users use linux.
If people 'just accepted' things we'd still be driving around in model T fords and using monochrome monitors. Discussing things leads to the emergence of new ideas that, believe it or not, may be better than the current status quo. The GPL should apply to the open sharing of ideas and thoughts rather than just code - branding anyone who has trouble or believes things could be done a better/different way as a troll misses the point entirely.

Leo_01
February 23rd, 2006, 01:25 PM
nice point.
but what i am trying to put across is that new users got to get be open minded to accept new ways of installing their softwares...
If they don't get the Windows Mindset out of their mind they can never get used to linux.

Kerberos
February 23rd, 2006, 01:41 PM
nice point.
but what i am trying to put across is that new users got to get be open minded to accept new ways of installing their softwares...
If they don't get the Windows Mindset out of their mind they can never get used to linux.
Why has everything got to be in relation to Windows? Why can't people not like/feel there is room for improvement without it having to do with Windows? The network configuration in Ubuntu pisses me off constantly (for one) and its got nothing to do with Windows, as does many other things. Less Ubuntu poetry, more constructive criticism, thats what I say.

OTOH you could dismiss every single anti Windows rant by Linux enthusiasts as 'they just need to get out of the Linux mindset', automatically negating any worth of the argument on its merits alone.

nocturn
February 23rd, 2006, 02:04 PM
However, its all the other software that is horribly lacking. In fact most of the time its atrocious.


That's off course a matter of opinion. I run my WinXP laptop at work with FireFox, OpenOffice, VLC, Zinf, Gaim and even bash and vi to get it basicly functional.



1. No Great Media/MP3 Player
I've tried just about all of them, none of them do exactly what I want.
BMP doesn't have a media manager.
BMPx runs slow and has messed up fonts on my system.
Amarok, while holding a lot of potential, just seems so counterintuitive to use, looking at the features list it looks like the end all, but then you load it up and I'm gassed.
RhythmBox seems great at first, and I would use it, but it locks down my system when I attempt to add my networked mp3 library of a lot of songs.

Where is the winamp for linux? It takes approximately 2MB of system resources when minimized, and pops up the media list in a split instant.


Have you checked out listen? It is similar to Amarok I've heard, but a little cleaner with a Gnome interface.



2. No Pro Image Editing
Gimp? No thanks, I've tried it, I really have given it an honest try. It's good, but lightyears from Photoshop.


I like the Gimp actually, what features are you missing that Photoshop has (just asking).



3. ATI drivers, dual monitors, special configurations.
What a pain in the **** to setup, yea finally I got it after many days.


I do agree that xorg has some way to go in being user friendly. Windows does this better I admit (auto detecting monitors).
The issue with ATI drivers is actually something ATI should address (not a Linux native problem). Nvidia isn't hard to set up (easier then on windows for me).



4. Wine or VMware
Yeah I'm sure many of you are thinking, why not just get wine and run some of your XP apps. I can't think of a better argument against linux software than wine. You might as well just have all the linux developers stop working on apps, and have them create a fully working XP compatability layer and only run windows software. Or better yet, just go buy XP.


I rarely recommend wine (or vmware). But wine can help out to overcome the transition period when coming from windows. It's a big help for those of us who need some specific apps that will not be ported before Linux gains critical mass.



I want to cut windows out of my life completely.


Good to hear. I did this 7 years ago and it wasn't as hard as I had thought.



5. Usability
There is no usability, no continuity between programs, the user experience is that of four year old with ADD after 3 cups of coffee. Every program is completely different, sometimes you click this for preferences other times you right click. You just never know, nothing is intuitive. I would say this is probably because the free software doesn't have the corporate development process and departments. Its just some programmers who want something to work, they aren't thinking of the users experience, and if they do, they simply do not posses the expertise.


My experience has just been the oposite, but only when you stay mainly within one desktop environment (KDE apps behave different from Gnome).
I have found that most Gnome apps adhere to the human interface guidelines quite well and put their menus in the same places and in logical places (like OpenOffice putting page formatting under format instead of file).

On windows, this is not the case (unless you use MS products only).



6. Binary Newsgroups


Can't comment as I never use them



7. Firewall?
I haven't spent much time looking for a personal software firewall. But Firestarter that comes with ubuntu is not it. I want to know when an application communicates with the internet and allow/disallow. Like Tiny software firewall for windows.


What is wrong with Firestarter? It's a very good frontend for the kernel firewall.



It seems that if you a very basic user, browsing the web, instant messaging, getting a few emails Ubuntu can very easily replace XP/OSX.


I'm sorry to say, but I, like many other Linux users, am not your basic user. I use my systems for a host of things, including webdesign, programming and running a server. I'm a system administrator and I find XP very much lacking for serious applications.



I don't know, maybe I'm still trying to force things the Windows way, and I'm getting some serious withdrawl symptoms. But I am just not happy with majority of the software choices out there. So I end up searching and downloading programs until I find something stable and usable. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, and its all growing pains, let's hope.


I think that is the main problem you are having. Linux offers many choices, not only in applications, but even in desktop environments.
If you can't get used to Gnome, there is alwas KDE and even XFCE or a number of others. There are numerous mailclients and a lot of graphical programs (Pixie may suit your need, though it is not free).

I have found that once you get used to the Linux/Unix way of working, there is no going back...

nocturn
February 23rd, 2006, 02:22 PM
Yes I've mixed the two, since you can run KDE on gnome, that's what bugs me, all of a sudden instead of the gnome theme and layout I'm presented with something very different (KDE).


I hate to break this to you, but the same problem applies to Windows.
I regularly run GTK, QT and even motif apps on windows. They all look different.

The same goes for Java apps BTW.

WalterDirt
February 23rd, 2006, 02:44 PM
I want to thank you all for your responses. Really.

To respond to some of the questions that are brought up. I think the usability issue everyone is so confused about is that I can run KDE apps inside Gnome, and the interfaces are different. Also, then open up VLC program, this doesn't look like gnome or KDE, but like some java application. It just seems that some applications I open have the nice gnome theme I've set, then others have some strange KDE theme, and then others still are all gray and boxy. This is the inconsistency I'm talking about. Try opening up Firestarter, Firefox, amarok, and VLC. Notice how only firefox applys my gnome theme?

Re: Firestarter
I'm used to an application level firewall control. Firefox comes up for the first time and attempts to access the internet, a pop shows up and asks me if I want to allow it or deny it, and make it temporary or a permanent rule. Firestarter doesn't have application level control from what I can grasp of it. I want this because I like knowing what is making an internet connection and why.

MP3
Like I said I haven't found a great mp3 application that can handle a large library. I want a library function for searching, and playlists, amarok again just isn't my cup of tea. Rythmbox I wouldn't mind if it could handle my library.

I would like to try out this "Listen" software but I'm having trouble tracking it down. Can someone point me in the right direction. Maybe, better yet, is there some central resource that lists all the best linux software including this Listen.

I'll try the CVS version of Pan, although I haven't done a build from CVS yet.

Also, I'm evaluating Pixel, seems to be great, and I'll be making a purchase of it if I like it.

I'm not going back to windows, I know Linux isn't a "perfect" OS, if there's such a thing. And again, my chief compliant isn't with Linux the OS, its very stable. it's the applications running on there.

sbasak
February 23rd, 2006, 02:48 PM
You may try Knoppix. It has more applications built in than Ubuntu.
Considering all you get in Linux is free, it is still an excellent OS.

Artificial Intelligence
February 23rd, 2006, 02:54 PM
To respond to some of the questions that are brought up. I think the usability issue everyone is so confused about is that I can run KDE apps inside Gnome, and the interfaces are different. Also, then open up VLC program, this doesn't look like gnome or KDE, but like some java application. It just seems that some applications I open have the nice gnome theme I've set, then others have some strange KDE theme, and then others still are all gray and boxy. This is the inconsistency I'm talking about. Try opening up Firestarter, Firefox, amarok, and VLC. Notice how only firefox applys my gnome theme?

VLC unfortunate happens to be compiled with gtk1 instead of gtk2 on breezy. That should be fixed in the next release. Xmms is old that's why it still uses gtk1, you mighht want to take a look at bmp. The newest release of Mplayer uses gtk2 which will be in dapper also.
If you want the same theme for application which are open as admin you might want to take a look here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=77694 check 'Howto change GTK themes and icons for root application'.
I think firefox uses its own system which why it's diffrent, it's not fully intergrated into gnome theme.

Master Shake
February 23rd, 2006, 03:06 PM
Wow! That pixel program looks pretty good! I may try it out! I've been lamenting a good OSS alternative to Paint Shop Pro (one of hte few reasons I keep my win partition)