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raja
August 21st, 2007, 02:41 AM
im just pointing out that Windows and Mac are more prepared for a home user than linux, Im not talking about the operation system you would have in a big server or so, im talking about the OS you would have in your home pc to check emails, to read pdf files, to see and share pictures, to chat/videoconference with other people, to watch movies, lisent to music, browse the web. as you can see all these activities (which are the most frequent in any home pc user, no matter what OS or version they use) are more about the user and less about the system

I am not sure what you are trying to say. A linux system can do more of those things out of the box than a windows system. The problem is that so few people ever have to do a windows install and therefore never know the problems.
My colleague's pc refused to boot last week and he had to reinstall windows. It was amazing how he had to spend more than a day and about 20 reboots to install drivers for each hardware (and reboot and reboot) and install all the updates and stuff. And once all that is done, you start installing office, adobe acrobat, a couple of antiviruses, anit-spyware and so on and on...

Frak
August 21st, 2007, 02:50 AM
if i went to the website was actually because the program didnt show up in synaptic package actually!
I am going to assume that you want a rolling package distribution, therefore I recommend you use Arch Linux.

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 02:52 AM
I am not sure what you are trying to say. A linux system can do more of those things out of the box than a windows system. The problem is that so few people ever have to do a windows install and therefore never know the problems.
My colleague's pc refused to boot last week and he had to reinstall windows. It was amazing how he had to spend more than a day and about 20 reboots to install drivers for each hardware (and reboot and reboot) and install all the updates and stuff. And once all that is done, you start installing office, adobe acrobat, a couple of antiviruses, anit-spyware and so on and on...

You dont even have idea... :lolflag: it is much worse when the computer comes with preinstalled software, i got an HP m7248m which the times i have restored it after it is all done i have to unistall 70+ super ****** applications (most of them trial) to then install some other applications it takes over 7 reboots to unistall everything and over 15 to install what i want. And the stupid Norton leaves registry entries that i have to manually delete to be able to install my other antivirus!

Frak
August 21st, 2007, 02:57 AM
You dont even have idea... :lolflag: it is much worse when the computer comes with preinstalled software, i got an HP m7248m which the times i have restored it after it is all done i have to unistall 70+ super ****** applications (most of them trial) to then install some other applications it takes over 7 reboots to unistall everything and over 15 to install what i want. And the stupid Norton leaves registry entries that i have to manually delete to be able to install my other antivirus!
Well in Linux, viruses are not a problem, and rebooting is not a problem unless you mess with hardware or the kernel.
If you had the 18,000 or so apps that aren't kernel/hardware oriented, you could safely uninstall every last one of them without rebooting once.

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 02:59 AM
Actually, I responded (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3222599&postcount=8401) to your post earlier linking to a number of places where I have spelled out what can be improved. You seem to have ignored that post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3222599&postcount=8401) completely.

Because you generally don't go to a website to find software. You go to your package manager. Going to a website to find Linux software is like going to Start Menu > Control Panel > Add/Remove Programs to find software to install in Windows. That's not the way things are typically done.

I did read your post, but as a matter of fact most of them arent actually improvements but are more like bugs (where thought to work in one way but for some reason or another it works in another), some other post make no sense
for example: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=420368

In Ubuntu, there are currently two panels by default in Gnome--one at the top, one at the bottom. This proposal is that there be only one panel.

whats the big deal? right clic the panel and select remove panel! geez.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=411481

A slideshow with screenshots introducing new users to Ubuntu while the installation process is happening.

If linux is will start to copy windows, why no better copy whatever is good in windows and not annoying, anyways who is so boored that will be seated reading the screen while linux install for 30+ min? Even microsoft that never changes anything, for the new windows vista removed that feature.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=421772

Two panels in by default in KDE, much like in Gnome for Ubuntu.

Just the oposite of the one before? weird... gnome people wants to get rid of the extra panel and kde people wants another panel?

I didnt read all, but I browsed most of them, it seams that most of them are "boot" related and "installation" related which again remember.. we are talking about regular home pc user, how many of them will ever face an OS installation?

ok let me try to explain what i mean with ready for home user or whatever.
when i got my first computer, i knew 0 about anything computer related, i had win98 installed and i did not have internet. i use to get software and games from friend, and to install them and run them, i just had to follow just a bit of logic and the On-Screen instructions (such as next, ok, cancel, etc) now, if instead of my first computer would be win98 would be Ubuntu (that probably is the most user friendly version yet to come) how i would guess that to install firefox i would need to open a terminal and write sudo apt-get install firefox?

Frak
August 21st, 2007, 03:01 AM
Actually that slideshow would be a great idea :)

aysiu
August 21st, 2007, 03:03 AM
now, if instead of my first computer would be win98 would be Ubuntu (that probably is the most user friendly version yet to come) how i would guess that to install firefox i would need to open a terminal and write sudo apt-get install firefox? No, you tell me this: if you have no experience with computers, what would make more sense to do--launch a blue e icon, search in a search engine for the word firefox, find the download now link and double-click some file on your desktop and click Next in a wizard... or click on Applications[/I > ][I]Add/Remove > Internet and then check the box next to Firefox?

I don't see what
sudo apt-get install firefox has to do with it.

aysiu
August 21st, 2007, 03:05 AM
Actually that slideshow would be a great idea :) XogGyux isn't really looking at the improvements I've suggested, just looking for a way to argue with people. Quite a number of my suggestions had to do with deficiencies in Linux, actually. Well, whatever. The arguments about this have gone on for thousands of posts, and they will continue for thousands more posts.

Frak
August 21st, 2007, 03:07 AM
XogGyux isn't really looking at the improvements I've suggested, just looking for a way to argue with people. Quite a number of my suggestions had to do with deficiencies in Linux, actually. Well, whatever. The arguments about this have gone on for thousands of posts, and they will continue for thousands more posts.
I just started ignoring him, none of his posts held much ground when he argued.

aysiu
August 21st, 2007, 03:11 AM
I just started ignoring him, none of his posts held much ground when he argued.
I've gone ahead and done the same.

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 03:17 AM
No, you tell me this: if you have no experience with computers, what would make more sense to do--launch a blue e icon, search in a search engine for the word firefox, find the download now link and double-click some file on your desktop and click Next in a wizard... or click on Applications[/I > ][I]Add/Remove > Internet and then check the box next to Firefox?

I don't see what
sudo apt-get install firefox has to do with it.

omg i used firefox just as an example, what about any other application that is not in the Add/Remove online database?

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 03:24 AM
I've gone ahead and done the same.

I couldnt care less if i get ignore by people that think that a rough linux is ready for home pc usage, and that do not care about userfriendly.
I'll keep posting for people that does care!

KIAaze
August 21st, 2007, 03:24 AM
Why each time i say something about linux installation system people only talks about .deb? why no one talks about how easy is to compile a program that you downloaded the source code? or how easy is to install a tar.gz?

Because it is NOT easy to compile a program from source.
It can be easy in 70-80% of the cases maybe. But if you encounter errors and are a newbie, you're lost without external help.
Errors in configure are not too hard to solve, but when you start getting errors during the make phase, it gets harder without programming knowledge...

And everyone talks about .deb because it's the standard way (except for synaptic, but that's also using .deb in some way) of installing programs in Ubuntu and we are on an Ubuntu forum.

There are also other package management systems out there like autopackage, rpm, etc.
You mentioned that some .debs don't install shortcuts. That is true. But once again, it depends how the package was made.
Contrary to Windows installers that allow you to choose where to install the program and if you want to add shortcuts or not, .debs install the program the way the packager wanted it too (usually they try to follow the standards).

There are two reasons why you mostly find source packages (.tar.gz/.tar.bz2) instead of binary packages (.deb&co):

1)Installation from source works on all UNIX based systems and even on Windows. So it's the best way to distribute a program for several platforms.
Binary packages like .deb for example on the other hand only work on certain distros. (altough tools like alien can help here)

Some package management systems like autopackage are actively being developed to solve this problem and create a package system usable on all GNU/Linux distros.

2)Creating packages needs to be learned and is not straightforward.
I managed to create some by creating a control file and using dpkg-deb, but apparently this isn't the correct way and I should have used dh_make.
Anyway, it's something that needs to be learned and I haven't been able to find a GUI to do it yet, which would be very nice.

AcworthJack
August 21st, 2007, 03:33 AM
What I have been seeing in this “readiness” string is a bit of confusion. If we want to talk about "new installs" then I suggest we need to look at the new Dell's that come with Ubuntu pre-loaded. I have not purchased one – but I submit this is the only valid comparion against new Windows PCs.

Almost no Windows “user” installs Windows and all the associated applications and drivers. I think the next “killer app” to get Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically “ready” for the desktop is to get HP to start selling Ubuntu as an offering. If someone could walk into Wal-Mart and buy a Ubuntu box – then it would be “desktop ready”.

Since we have no control over that – how about a few more surveys about various apps that could improve the “out of the box” Ubuntu experience?

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 03:33 AM
Because it is NOT easy to compile a program from source.
It can be easy in 70-80% of the cases maybe. But if you encounter errors and are a newbie, you're lost without external help.
Errors in configure are not too hard to solve, but when you start getting errors during the make phase, it gets harder without programming knowledge...

And everyone talks about .deb because it's the standard way (except for synaptic, but that's also using .deb in some way) of installing programs in Ubuntu and we are on an Ubuntu forum.

There are also other package management systems out there like autopackage, rpm, etc.
You mentioned that some .debs don't install shortcuts. That is true. But once again, it depends how the package was made.
Contrary to Windows installers that allow you to choose where to install the program and if you want to add shortcuts or not, .debs install the program the way the packager wanted it too (usually they try to follow the standards).

There are two reasons why you mostly find source packages (.tar.gz/.tar.bz2) instead of binary packages (.deb&co):

1)Installation from source works on all UNIX based systems and even on Windows. So it's the best way to distribute a program for several platforms.
Binary packages like .deb for example on the other hand only work on certain distros. (altough tools like alien can help here)

Some package management systems like autopackage are actively being developed to solve this problem and create a package system usable on all GNU/Linux distros.

2)Creating packages needs to be learned and is not straightforward.
I managed to create some by creating a control file and using dpkg-deb, but apparently this isn't the correct way and I should have used dh_make.
Anyway, it's something that needs to be learned and I haven't been able to find a GUI to do it yet, which would be very nice.

thats my point, althou deb packages are fairly common there still exist several other that are still in use, moreover deb package wont give you any feedback (unless something terrible happens, but if everything is cool it wont say where the application went etc) and it wont ask you where you want it installed either.

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 03:42 AM
do you really think that for a home user the actual mess in "/" directory is better than something like this?


Image : http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6668/untitled2ni8.th.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled2ni8.jpg)

compare to the actual:
http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/courses/build/images/diagram04.png


about the applications installation i got the following idea:
you download the application, (which is actually ready to run) and you copy it to where you want it (or download directly to its final destination), now if you dont want to have duplicate libraries, after you have the application in the directory you want, you right click it and the menu will show you an option "register shared files/libraries" this will cut the "shared libraries" from the application and paste it into /system/shared libraries and files and add a couple of lines to an existent text file which will be the log or record of shared files, if when you selected register shared libraries, the library already exist, the system will keep the most recent (information obtained from metadata), ok now the installation process is really straight foward just copy and paste (easier than .exe in windows or .deb in linux), is more flexible (you can install wherever you want, even cd, dvd, memory drives, etc) and if you dont want duplicate libraries for any reason (maybe you dont have enough space, or you just want to keep your system extremely clean, you only have to register them and it will delete the libraries from the application, and copy them to the system shared libraries.

one important thing, since the installation is only copy and paste, when you right clic the application you should have an option to add it to the system menu, the panel quicklaunch, and desktop

for unistallation, if you did not register the application, you only have to delete the application, if you did register it, when you delete it, the system will alert you that the application has library a, library b, and file c shared, and library b and file c are needed for application d, and gives you the option to delete all, keep all, or delete only the non-in-use library (a) once you selected the option you wanted, it will delete the application, and then update the register text file.

KIAaze
August 21st, 2007, 03:59 AM
Coming soon: XogGyuxLinux ^^

I don't think those changes will be implemented anytime soon in Ubuntu. But nothing prevents you from creating a new distro.

After all, that's how it works: Some people don't find any distro that works exactly as they want, so they create a new distro. :)

As suggested previously, have a look at GoboLinux and ArchLinux for example.
(altough ArchLinux didn't seem very user-friendly from its description...)

And by the way, I think it's better to put all user folders in the same folder /home. Make it easier to backup and is less messy if there are a lot of users.

The "system" folders could be simplified indeed. But on the other hand, as said previously, it's not what a normal user should be concerned about. And it's not a change in this filesystem that will make the OS more user-friendly.

User-friendliness comes from good software, good hardware support and good stability IMO.

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 04:05 AM
Coming soon: XogGyuxLinux ^^

I don't think those changes will be implemented anytime soon in Ubuntu. But nothing prevents you from creating a new distro.

After all, that's how it works: Some people don't find any distro that works exactly as they want, so they create a new distro. :)

As suggested previously, have a look at GoboLinux and ArchLinux for example.
(altough ArchLinux didn't seem very user-friendly from its description...)

And by the way, I think it's better to put all user folders in the same folder /home. Make it easier to backup and is less messy if there are a lot of users.

The "system" folders could be simplified indeed. But on the other hand, as said previously, it's not what a normal user should be concerned about. And it's not a change in this filesystem that will make the OS more user-friendly.

User-friendliness comes from good software, good hardware support and good stability IMO.

Create a new distro needs time + probabbly some programming skills, i dont got either of those, the immense amount of different distros in my opinion in my opinion only makes it all worse( check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions so you can see how many there are, all that makes it a lot harder to "resolve" problems since all are different), it is like pulling the rope in 100 different directions.
What i have been trying to point out are linux features (that are not bad) but that are not very user firendly and could be improved (my suggestion are user-friendly based and im not talking about bugs a overall improvements as the example aysiu showed me the links)

XogGyux
August 21st, 2007, 05:05 AM
What I have been seeing in this “readiness” string is a bit of confusion. If we want to talk about "new installs" then I suggest we need to look at the new Dell's that come with Ubuntu pre-loaded. I have not purchased one – but I submit this is the only valid comparion against new Windows PCs.

Almost no Windows “user” installs Windows and all the associated applications and drivers. I think the next “killer app” to get Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically “ready” for the desktop is to get HP to start selling Ubuntu as an offering. If someone could walk into Wal-Mart and buy a Ubuntu box – then it would be “desktop ready”.

Since we have no control over that – how about a few more surveys about various apps that could improve the “out of the box” Ubuntu experience?

I wouldnt count on dell's to promote linux thruout home users, in fact until now i havent seen any dell computer featuring ubuntu in any store, i have only seen to buy them from the web (at the same price that windows computer, which for me seems really stupid, since linux is free and the basic version of windows is 100+ usd), in my opinion Dell is only distributing linux to fill up a gap in the market, and i dont think dell linux pc will do much to increase linux popularity!

AcworthJack
August 21st, 2007, 04:27 PM
I wouldnt count on dell's to promote linux thruout home users, in fact until now i havent seen any dell computer featuring ubuntu in any store, i have only seen to buy them from the web (at the same price that windows computer, which for me seems really stupid, since linux is free and the basic version of windows is 100+ usd), in my opinion Dell is only distributing linux to fill up a gap in the market, and i dont think dell linux pc will do much to increase linux popularity!

I agree - Dell is not pushing Linux - just making some systems available. Maybe we should go the other way and push HW parts companies to include Linux drivers with their products. This would make it easier to install Linux.

DARKGuy
August 21st, 2007, 04:32 PM
I agree - Dell is not pushing Linux - just making some systems available. Maybe we should go the other way and push HW parts companies to include Linux drivers with their products. This would make it easier to install Linux.

100% agreed.

girard
August 21st, 2007, 06:01 PM
I think ubuntu has done a good job on simplifying the installation process which is one of the main criteria for an OS being ready for deployment to home desktops (meaning the pc of an average home user). It has also done a good job at being able to provide most of the needs out of the box such productivity, media handling (music and videos, etc...), and a whole lot more. A person who "just wants a pc" will be fully satisfied with the defaults of fiesty for example. i saw tribe4 of gutsy, and it's only getting better. eye candy and the like are also okay.

one thing that i think has to be worked on, if ubuntu, and linux for that matter, wishes to find itself more on the homes of simple users, is the slow and steady graduation from the terminal.

i know most users would present arguments about the "power" of the terminal, and i myself, despite my nascent knowledge about linux, have come across situations where the terminal has proven itself useful and advantageous. but if we were to ask whether this should be a necessity, a pre-requisite to be able to use linux, then most people would really not bother to read pages and pages of tutorials about how to use the terminal, precisely because the way people use computers have graduated from typing in commands, to simple point-and-clicks.

i'm no computer scientist, but one would think that pc's have a trend it has followed through history. that is, beginning at the terminal or command typing, it went into point and click, and now, we are entering the three dimensional, interactive, whathaveyou desktop - touch screens, voice activation or whatever.

so i think that ubuntu and linux as a whole should follow this trend, while preserving the terminal for those who still wish to use it. if it were to be truly ready for the home desktop, it should enable the user to be able to do intermediate functions, administrative tasks, and probably other complex one's via a gui, and not reserve one's control and management of the system wide tasks to the terminal.

yes, the terminal is, to some at least, easy to learn, and no doubt, one can learn it with enough time and patience. but at some point, i think it has to move on and play along with the trend of entering the graphical, and foreseeable three dimensional desktop.

popch
August 21st, 2007, 06:30 PM
if it were to be truly ready for the home desktop, it should enable the user to be able to do intermediate functions, administrative tasks, and probably other complex one's via a gui, and not reserve one's control and management of the system wide tasks to the terminal.

I think you might be right here.

But then, take my case. I have been into computers since the mid-seventies, and I am quite comfortable with using a CLI (command line interface, as the terminal is also called) and do not bat an eyelid when I have to use it. Besides, if you do have to use it, you just copy some text off a page in the internet and paste it into your terminal.

In the last few years I have used Linux distributions on and off, and now have banned Windows from my main machine. On this machine, I have installed two releases of Ubuntu linux in succession. Right now I am using the third release off the live CD.

Why do I tell you all this? Because I have a somewhat demanding machine, use a more-than-average number of applications and have on that machine used the CLI (or terminal) not once, not one single time, not at all. Zero times.

It just works.

rabi.fettig
August 21st, 2007, 07:05 PM
I agree - Dell is not pushing Linux - just making some systems available. Maybe we should go the other way and push HW parts companies to include Linux drivers with their products. This would make it easier to install Linux.

I'm with you 100%. I have already started making a nuisance of myself to the companies that supplied my problematic hardware (notably Toshiba and RIM) asking for a timeline for Linux support and informing them that I will not buy another of their products until they support my OS.

I think the real issue here is that companies don't take the Linux community seriously. After all, we're less than a percent of the total market share, a large number of us dual boot with a commercial OS, and we're stigmatized as running out of date and second-hand hardware. I don't think any of that sounds attractive to marketing at any large company.

I like the idea of having a certification for hardware that has been tested and provides optimal performance under Ubuntu. I think all of us need to be more vocal in criticism for lack of Linux support and praise for support efforts (I'm looking in nVidia's direction.) As the Linux market grows, so will the OEM support, which will in turn make Linux more attractive to non-techie users.

darrenm
August 22nd, 2007, 12:20 AM
I'm with you 100%. I have already started making a nuisance of myself to the companies that supplied my problematic hardware (notably Toshiba and RIM) asking for a timeline for Linux support and informing them that I will not buy another of their products until they support my OS.

I think the real issue here is that companies don't take the Linux community seriously. After all, we're less than a percent of the total market share, a large number of us dual boot with a commercial OS, and we're stigmatized as running out of date and second-hand hardware. I don't think any of that sounds attractive to marketing at any large company.

I like the idea of having a certification for hardware that has been tested and provides optimal performance under Ubuntu. I think all of us need to be more vocal in criticism for lack of Linux support and praise for support efforts (I'm looking in nVidia's direction.) As the Linux market grows, so will the OEM support, which will in turn make Linux more attractive to non-techie users.

Theres a big part of supporting the Linux community that these large companies either don't understand or underestimate. The people in the Linux community are generally quite vocal and they are normally the tech contact of their local family and friends group. Even though they can't always move others away from Windows they will push towards certain manufacturers and away from others. Like ATi/AMD - Their poor support of the Linux community has done them lots of damage that they will do well to recover from. They have a bad image now with the community that spills over into lots of other areas and the general consensus gets changed. Personally I used to be a big fan of AMD, ATi and Broadcom. Now I let everyone know they aren't good companies so my hardware of choice is Intel and Nvidia. A large general moving opinion spread over the Internet works like this.

XogGyux
August 22nd, 2007, 12:41 AM
I'm with you 100%. I have already started making a nuisance of myself to the companies that supplied my problematic hardware (notably Toshiba and RIM) asking for a timeline for Linux support and informing them that I will not buy another of their products until they support my OS.

I think the real issue here is that companies don't take the Linux community seriously. After all, we're less than a percent of the total market share, a large number of us dual boot with a commercial OS, and we're stigmatized as running out of date and second-hand hardware. I don't think any of that sounds attractive to marketing at any large company.

I like the idea of having a certification for hardware that has been tested and provides optimal performance under Ubuntu. I think all of us need to be more vocal in criticism for lack of Linux support and praise for support efforts (I'm looking in nVidia's direction.) As the Linux market grows, so will the OEM support, which will in turn make Linux more attractive to non-techie users.


It is just common sence actually, 90% of the client operating system are windows and the remaining 10% are mac OS and any other, even thou in that 10% Mac is actually the biggest group, so basically all linux users together sums up to less than 2% of all (if not less)!
In top of that, linux is free, which is an dissadvantage in some cases, yes it might be easy to distribute, but no company would risk to invest in a market where there is no big flow of money, thats why we dont see Photoshop or the last Logitech webcam (compatible) for linux etc.
Linux development depends on linux's users as well as linux's programmers.
Another thing that i think is afecting linux development, is the huge amount of distributions, there are literary hundreds, and althou they are compatible they have small differences that makes it a bit more difficult when you are trying to get support (e.g. getting a problem fixed, and smalls differences are obstacles, for example, in unbutu you use sudo, however in redhat [at least when i use to use it] was su, password, and then whatever you want] this might not seem too complicated, but still for a novice can give him a headache and this is only an example), in resume i think that +distributions are not good.

rabi.fettig
August 22nd, 2007, 01:03 AM
It is just common sence actually, 90% of the client operating system are windows and the remaining 10% are mac OS and any other, even thou in that 10% Mac is actually the biggest group, so basically all linux users together sums up to less than 2% of all (if not less)!
In top of that, linux is free, which is an dissadvantage in some cases, yes it might be easy to distribute, but no company would risk to invest in a market where there is no big flow of money, thats why we dont see Photoshop or the last Logitech webcam (compatible) for linux etc.
Linux development depends on linux's users as well as linux's programmers.
Another thing that i think is afecting linux development, is the huge amount of distributions, there are literary hundreds, and althou they are compatible they have small differences that makes it a bit more difficult when you are trying to get support (e.g. getting a problem fixed, and smalls differences are obstacles, for example, in unbutu you use sudo, however in redhat [at least when i use to use it] was su, password, and then whatever you want] this might not seem too complicated, but still for a novice can give him a headache and this is only an example), in resume i think that +distributions are not good.

I'm not really sure I understand your point about free distribution being detrimental to Linux. For example, how does Adobe benefit from knowing that people paid someone else for the operating system that Photoshop is running under?

I do agree that the number of distributions is an issue. It's not feasible to test software under every possible configuration on every possible distribution. That having been said, I think a large part of the flexibility of Linux is owed to its modularity. It really shouldn't be necessary to test everything, and some companies (nVidia or id Software, for example) have shown that proper design can reduce compatibility issues to at least the level found in Windows.

As far as the pervasive use of sudo in Ubuntu, I believe that is because of the decision to eliminate the root login. This was a source of a good deal of confusion for Windows users who switched over to Linux in the past. Having users with different permission levels makes the computer feel more like a home PC and less like a Unix workstation. It's purely a subjective decision.

A$h X
August 22nd, 2007, 01:18 AM
one thing that i think has to be worked on, if ubuntu, and linux for that matter, wishes to find itself more on the homes of simple users, is the slow and steady graduation from the terminal.

i think it has to move on and play along with the trend of entering the graphical, and foreseeable three dimensional desktop.

The above, and the overwhelming amount of distros available are the main hurdles in linux-uptake by the mainstream public.
Also, the relative lack of support (purely quantity wise) is another limiting factor.

One of the main strengths (and major weaknesses security-wise) is the ease of which a windows user can install programs onto their systems.

Yet another reason is the lack of "big-name" software on linux, it simply is not represented by many popular brands, so users will turn away from linux.

Finally, the fear factor for non-technical users is enough to put them off non-windows products for life- " I just figured how to do all that crap. I'm not learning it all again!"

XogGyux
August 22nd, 2007, 01:40 AM
I'm not really sure I understand your point about free distribution being detrimental to Linux. For example, how does Adobe benefit from knowing that people paid someone else for the operating system that Photoshop is running under?

I do agree that the number of distributions is an issue. It's not feasible to test software under every possible configuration on every possible distribution. That having been said, I think a large part of the flexibility of Linux is owed to its modularity. It really shouldn't be necessary to test everything, and some companies (nVidia or id Software, for example) have shown that proper design can reduce compatibility issues to at least the level found in Windows.

As far as the pervasive use of sudo in Ubuntu, I believe that is because of the decision to eliminate the root login. This was a source of a good deal of confusion for Windows users who switched over to Linux in the past. Having users with different permission levels makes the computer feel more like a home PC and less like a Unix workstation. It's purely a subjective decision.

Most of what i said is my personal opinion, i might not be necesary true, anyways in my experiece i have seen people that would buy an "expensive thing" rather than a "cheap thing" based only on the price (you can see the philosophy behind this: you get what you pay for, or in other words, the most expensive the better quality) which althou for in some cases (perhaps the majority) is true, but when it comes to linux (quality) i dont think this applies for linux ( or in general software), in my experience at least the best software i have used are free (mplayer [great] openoffice [MS office is annoying!] and more)

What i said about distributions, i meant that there are too many and too few are different, in other words there are 100+ but 3 of them are just the same with 1 small change, another 4 are the same but with another small change, and at the end is just confusion.

Apparence is other thing that i believe is an obstacle for linux develop, althou the overal linux apparence is nice and clean, linux "bunddled applications" (at least in ubuntu) are ugly really ugly and after all it is human nature to prejudge anything for its apparance, for example one day a friend had a problem with windows media player (in windows) and i recomended him mplayer, he laugh because he thought that that "simple" and "ugly" thing was old etc, but after a while he found that was super functional and a very good application and now it is his favorite (happened the same to me when i someone recommended it to me a couple of years ago!)


I couldnt recall who wrote about linux installation a couple of replies ago, anyways:
I dont think linux "installation" need to much polishing (at least unbutu), years ago i installed to try redhat 7 (thats really old) and althou i needed 15+ mins to follow all the indications (over 25 steps to configure keyboard, region, packages to install, partition, etc), it was super easy (as easy as the windows of the time) now, ubuntu's installation is way superior and easy than any other OS i have installed (BeOS, RedHat, SuSE, Slackware, Windows 98, Windows ME, windows NT, Windows 2000, windows XP (sp1, sp2, 64-bit edition), windows vita (32-64) and half MacOS X in pc (half becuase i wasnt patient enough and aborted it :))
so, i dont think ubuntu installation needs to much polishing, althou i would recomend to make "/" the default mount dir (well i dont know if this stills apply since my experience was with redhat 7 and i really didnt pay to much attention to the unbuntu installation since i already knew what to do and was so easy that i was too relaxed) since when i first installed linux ever, i spent 30mins to figure out what was wrong (i didnt expesify the mounting dir) and the error i would get was vague.

XogGyux
August 22nd, 2007, 01:47 AM
The above, and the overwhelming amount of distros available are the main hurdles in linux-uptake by the mainstream public.
Also, the relative lack of support (purely quantity wise) is another limiting factor.

One of the main strengths (and major weaknesses security-wise) is the ease of which a windows user can install programs onto their systems.

Yet another reason is the lack of "big-name" software on linux, it simply is not represented by many popular brands, so users will turn away from linux.

Finally, the fear factor for non-technical users is enough to put them off non-windows products for life- " I just figured how to do all that crap. I'm not learning it all again!"


I dont think we gonna have "big-name" software for a while, and also when we do get it is gonna be because linux popularity have risen, in other words, there is no insentive for big companies (such as adobe, autodesk, etc), to develop a software and tech support for a very small amount of users.

XogGyux
August 22nd, 2007, 02:19 AM
Other thing is that after a while thinking i couldnt come out with a reason that could "persuade" users to use linux over all other OS.
Free? well if you already have the hardware this might be a good reason, however if you are buying a pc with the OS already pre-installed linux wont be "free" check this out:
I managed to configure two very similar computer with dell to compare prices:

Ubuntu SYSTEM:
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (2MB L2 Cache,1.80GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu Desktop Edition version 7.04 edit
MONITORS 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 320GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16x DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8300GS edit
SOUND CARD Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included


Windows System:
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4400 (2MB L2 Cache,2.00GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium edit
MONITOR 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 320GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16X DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8300GS edit
SOUND Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included edit
MODEM & WIRELESS No Modem Option

Both systems are 729 USD, and the only difference between them is that the windows system has a Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4400 (which is better than unbuntu's system) and ubuntu's system is Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300, also notice that windows home premium worth about $239.99 if you buy it in a retail store. In resume dell ends up "stealing" a bit more than $250. Ubuntu system should cost at least $100 less than window's if not $150


Other reason..
Stable? MacOS is stable as well.


Another?
Secure? MacOS is secure also.


Coulnt think another reason

I think to raise linx popularity the best shot is to make it way more user friendly that its competitor because any other option might requiere inmense amount of money which linux developers does not count with.

steven8
August 22nd, 2007, 02:23 AM
Man, this thread has become even more yada-yada-yada than it was before. I use Linux everyday at home. For everything I need. I don't use Windows at all. That's all I have to say. We can debate ourselves into oblivion.

vik_777
August 22nd, 2007, 11:44 AM
*sigh*

Here is my take:
Yes Linux, specifically Ubuntu is ready for the Desktop. I use it as the main OS to do everything from development and work to making music on it. I have Windows running just to play a game or so on a very rare occasion, or check a website layout using IE.

I actually don't think Ubuntu is a Desktop Environment for grandmas or newbies. It is a system for seasoned Linux users like myself who might be fed up with other less "user friendly" distros, or for advanced Windows users who are comfortable with playing with their computer.

Thus, I consider it as an upgrade path from Windows. It is much more powerful, and I see no reason to go back to Windows as a main OS.

Great it may be, there are still some rough edges that I'd like to see cleared up. Most of the issues being media related - like video playback (codecs) and webcam support/streaming support in IM (like in gaim/pigin)

Otherwise, it's ready - at least for me and my laptop :)

Dark Star
August 22nd, 2007, 11:46 AM
Believe it or not installing apps in Linux is way easier than Windows.. Just few code :) and WIndows sucks.. People just sticking cause they are afraid that they will lose the comp. In my sense a Os should be User Friendly .. and less cluttered ;)

tgm4883
August 22nd, 2007, 03:19 PM
Other thing is that after a while thinking i couldnt come out with a reason that could "persuade" users to use linux over all other OS.
Free? well if you already have the hardware this might be a good reason, however if you are buying a pc with the OS already pre-installed linux wont be "free" check this out:
I managed to configure two very similar computer with dell to compare prices:

Ubuntu SYSTEM:
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300 (2MB L2 Cache,1.80GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Ubuntu Desktop Edition version 7.04 edit
MONITORS 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 320GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16x DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8300GS edit
SOUND CARD Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included


Windows System:
PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4400 (2MB L2 Cache,2.00GHz,800 FSB) edit
OPERATING SYSTEM Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium edit
MONITOR 17 inch ViewSonic VA1703wb LCD Monitor edit
MEMORY 1GB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 667MHz- 2DIMMs edit
HARD DRIVE 320GB Serial ATA Hard Drive (7200RPM) w/DataBurst Cache™ edit
OPTICAL DRIVE 16X DVD+/-RW Drive edit
VIDEO CARD 128MB NVIDIA GeForce 8300GS edit
SOUND Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio edit
KEYBOARD & MOUSE Dell USB Keyboard and Dell Optical USB Mouse edit
FLOPPY & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive Included edit
MODEM & WIRELESS No Modem Option

Both systems are 729 USD, and the only difference between them is that the windows system has a Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4400 (which is better than unbuntu's system) and ubuntu's system is Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor E4300, also notice that windows home premium worth about $239.99 if you buy it in a retail store. In resume dell ends up "stealing" a bit more than $250. Ubuntu system should cost at least $100 less than window's if not $150


Other reason..
Stable? MacOS is stable as well.


Another?
Secure? MacOS is secure also.


Coulnt think another reason

I think to raise linx popularity the best shot is to make it way more user friendly that its competitor because any other option might requiere inmense amount of money which linux developers does not count with.

You forget to figure in the crapware that Dell's Windows systems have. That brings the price down roughly $70. Windows Vista home premium isn't worth 239.99, it's worth $100 (OEM). I can see a $30 difference easily being made up by Dell ordering large quantities.

Mac's are way overpriced.

And we are talking about 1 system here. You want everything in 1 package. You want 1 computer that is cheap, secure, and stable. Your argument is like someone that wants a fast sports car with great gas mileage and has decided on a Ford Mustang and you telling them that a Hybrid gets better gas mileage and a Formula F1 car is faster. They want 1 car not 2. Compromise.

Sonrep
August 22nd, 2007, 04:35 PM
Linux is ready for the desktop today, millions of people use it that way. The biggest problem linux has when it comes to anything is that Windows is standard. So, by waiting for linux to become standard, it will never be.

Have made a odp document about this issue with more details.

Sonrep
August 22nd, 2007, 04:39 PM
Have added an attachment in this post to the document. This is how to make it "ready" for the desktop in the way so normal avarage joe users think it's ready.

XogGyux
August 23rd, 2007, 12:51 AM
You forget to figure in the crapware that Dell's Windows systems have. That brings the price down roughly $70. Windows Vista home premium isn't worth 239.99, it's worth $100 (OEM). I can see a $30 difference easily being made up by Dell ordering large quantities.

Mac's are way overpriced.

And we are talking about 1 system here. You want everything in 1 package. You want 1 computer that is cheap, secure, and stable. Your argument is like someone that wants a fast sports car with great gas mileage and has decided on a Ford Mustang and you telling them that a Hybrid gets better gas mileage and a Formula F1 car is faster. They want 1 car not 2. Compromise.

The windows system has windows vista PREMIUM, that is $200-250 if you buy it in an store (offcourse dell gets it way cheaper since they buy a lot of lisences and also they got deals, etc) Notice also that the windows system has better processor also (the rest is just the same)
also the software "bundle" or "package" or whatever that dells offers can be removed if you buy it online (anyways ubuntu system has to be bought online [i think])
After all, linux is free, which meansthat two equal system one with windows and the other with linux, the linux system should be cheaper (at least $50)

XogGyux
August 23rd, 2007, 12:58 AM
Have added an attachment in this post to the document. This is how to make it "ready" for the desktop in the way so normal avarage joe users think it's ready.

You people do know how to get complicated!, Nice graph :lolflag:

prizrak
August 23rd, 2007, 12:50 PM
Damn he still talking.....

tgm4883
August 23rd, 2007, 03:43 PM
The windows system has windows vista PREMIUM, that is $200-250 if you buy it in an store (offcourse dell gets it way cheaper since they buy a lot of lisences and also they got deals, etc) Notice also that the windows system has better processor also (the rest is just the same)
also the software "bundle" or "package" or whatever that dells offers can be removed if you buy it online (anyways ubuntu system has to be bought online [i think])
After all, linux is free, which meansthat two equal system one with windows and the other with linux, the linux system should be cheaper (at least $50)

:sigh:

How many ways can I say this. Windows Home PREMIUM OEM (why are we putting Premium in caps now?) is $100. If I can buy 1 Windows Home PREMIUM OEM for $100, then Dell can surely buy it for less. Why are we talking about OEM? Because when you order a Dell computer you get the OEM version of Windows. IIRC, you also get an evaluation copy of Office 2007. Should we add $400.00 to the Windows machine because of that too?

As for the processors. Your talking about a $4.00 difference on Newegg. So don't talk about how it should be more expensive because it has a faster processor, because it's a $4.00 difference. Talk about how Dell sucks because they don't offer the E4400 on the Ubuntu machine.

Sure I wish that the Ubuntu machines were cheaper, but it's not going to happen. You see, Dell has nicely covered the cost of the Windows license with crapware.

psusi
August 23rd, 2007, 04:38 PM
That's true... they probably recoup the cost of windows from all the crapware they install.

darrenm
August 23rd, 2007, 07:54 PM
They more than recover the cost of Windows through pre-installed crapware.

dragonriot
August 23rd, 2007, 08:26 PM
Other reason..
Stable? MacOS is stable as well.


Another?
Secure? MacOS is secure also.


Coulnt think another reason

I think to raise linx popularity the best shot is to make it way more user friendly that its competitor because any other option might requiere inmense amount of money which linux developers does not count with.

Seriously?? You DO realize that MacOS is stable and secure because it is running a modified Linux Kernel, right?

psusi
August 23rd, 2007, 08:40 PM
Seriously?? You DO realize that MacOS is stable and secure because it is running a modified Linux Kernel, right?

Actually no, it is based on a modified bsd kernel.

XogGyux
August 23rd, 2007, 11:32 PM
Seriously?? You DO realize that MacOS is stable and secure because it is running a modified Linux Kernel, right?

NO WAY REALLY? *sarcasm*

igoddard
August 24th, 2007, 01:36 PM
This could be a long post...
First let me say I'm a Unixer from way back (version 7) so the idea of anything Unix-like appeals.

My last laptop was bought OS-free and went through various Linux versions ending with Dapper > Edgy > Feisty. The current one had to have Spyware, sorry, Vista, replaced by SuSE, F7 and then back to Dapper.

As far as I'm concerned my laptop is for everyday use and uses only Linux - other boxes have all sorts of stuff on them (even SCO!). So my demands in relation to the laptop are largely those of any user to whom Linux must be acceptable if it's to make the BigTime.

So where do various distros fail and what can we do?

The reason why I eventually went back to Dapper has a lot to do with it - repeated experience with system-breaking upgrades.

For instance Edgy > Feisty broke recognition of Lumix cameras and execute permission on mounted USB sticks. The everyday user shouldn't find upgrades breaking what works. Updates eventually fixed the camera issue. After hacking config files I eventually sorted the USB issue. The everyday user shouldn't have to hack config files.

Also, under Edgy booting became flaky. Somewhere in booting it flashed up a message about rebuilding initrd but not for long enough to read. The everyday user shouldn't have to do that - if the upgrade to Feisty needed the rebuild it should have automated it. For everyday use stability and ease of administration matter.

When I had to move to new H/W I initially tried Dapper simply because it promises long-term stability but got low resolution clunky graphics. The latest SuSE looked better but still had peculiar aspect ratios in the display. It also had a strange issue with USB - Konqueror won't run scripts from USB sticks as it won't run remote programs (I thought only M$ had the gall to tell me what I could & couldn't do with my own computer) and a USB stick in the side of the laptop seems to count as remote. There was a work-round - when mounting the stick it would run autorun.sh after issuing a warning. I found that F7 sorted out the display issues and it worked well until a kernel update broke the wireless. So back to Dapper.

I eventually sorted the display by hacking xorg.conf. This wasn't made easier by the fact that initially something, possibly KDE screen conf, insisted on setting the correct panel res of 1200x800 back to 1200x768 (some issue around the lines the panel supports seems to have been the root of the problem). The everyday user shouldn't have to hack config files.

The old laptop had a parallel port on which I used a parallel port scanner. Of course udev makes that root access only. On every reboot. So that needed a chown or chmod in local.rc. An everyday user shouldn't have to hack rc files. And, yes, the upgrade to Feisty zapped local.rc - which is should have no business touching.

The new laptop has no parallel port so I tried to use the scanner on the network HP3020. Not seen by xsane. I tried installing the HP toolkit. (The repository version is ancient and Ubuntu doesn't report lib versions in a way in which the installer of the current version can understand). HP toolkit can't see the printer and tells me to install under CUPS (already installed) and then click on an option to make it visible. Oops, that option's been taken off in Ubuntu. I have to hack a config file. Everyday users shouldn't have to hack config files. The scanner still isn't visible. I have to hack another config file. Everyday users shouldn't have to hack config files.

So is everything OK now? Well, it was until this morning (apart from the pthreads library issue; Debian seems to have a version of this, inherited by Ubuntu, which is incompatible with other distros and which conflicts with several versions of the Informix engine but that's not an everyday user problem). And apart from the fact that under Ubuntu CUPS seems unable to print in landscape, or at least to be able to tell applications that it can.

But Dapper had the same USB issue as SuSE with the same workaround. And this morning a KDE upgrade has removed the workaround. I could, I suppose, solve the problem by locating the kioslave responsible, downloading the source, hacking it and recompiling it. Everyday users shouldn't have to hack source.

Does it matter that users have to go and hack config files? Yes, it does. Many users may not know they're there or, quite reasonably, be afraid to touch them. It also means that Ubuntu is failing in one of its aspirations, that users should be able to use their computer in their own language. Even English speakers might reasonably object that the language of config files is not their language and, given that the vocabulary of names and values of these files consists of English words, non-English speakers are excluded.

The original aspiration of free software was that the user would have access to the source and be able to tailor it. This only makes software free to those who have the time and skills to do this. For the majority software which relies on this is *not* free. We need to extend the concept of freedom; users should be free to use their computers as they wish without having to hack stuff.

What can we do to improve matters?

When Apple first brought out the Mac they made big play of usability testing. They put ordinary recruits in front of the latest snapshot of the software, set them tasks and observed how they did things and what wasn't clear. From that they evolved their interfaces. ISTM that M$ spent a lot of time stumbling after them and only caught up with a big push from HP (does anyone remember New Wave?). We're stumbling on behind the rest (example - install a printer through KDE - it will locate a locally attached printer, identify it, ask for confirmation then rebuild its driver list and ask you to search for the printer you just confirmed amongst a list of makers and models! If you're really unlucky it will then recommend a driver and, when you select it, tell you it's not available).

I suggest the BigTime test. If a component is ready for the big time any typical user should be able to perform operations which a reasonable user should consider to be in scope without difficulty. The BigTime test would involve a tester, a typical user. The tester would examine the component's web page or on-line documentation to find out what the component does and draw up a list of tasks. Accompanied by a member of the development team and a referee the tester would attempt these tasks. The component would be tested against the time taken to complete each task or decide that the component couldn't perform the task. Points would be deducted for each task which couldn't be performed (that would be a major incentive to improve the documentation) and even more for wrongly deciding that the task couldn't be performed. Points would also be deducted for each time the tester had to ask for help. Asking for help would be restricted to questions of the form "Where does it tell me how to....?" and help given would be restricted to pointing this out on the screen. The role of the referee would be to keep the score, enforce the help rules, ensure the tester's tasks included installation and configuration and prevent violence. The role of the developer would be to answer help questions. ( There is an ill-hidden agenda - to teach the developers to see things from the user's perspective.)

To be BigTime-ready a component would have to achieve a minimum score on the BigTime test. Its developers would have to commit to maintaining stability.

To be BigTime-ready a distro would have to use only components which had passed the BigTime test would itself be BigTime. It have to commit to maintaining stability and would also have to include a facility for backing out every upgrade which broke stability. I don't think any Linux distro is ready. Ubuntu may be nearer than most but until it or one of the others is, free software will not make more than a faint smudge on the desktops of the world.

Ian

KIAaze
August 24th, 2007, 03:38 PM
I read your post a little quickly, but from what I understand you use dapper instead of the newer versions because some things don't work with them anymore.

I don't know if you reported back the problems you experienced and how to solve them, but I hope you did.
You seem to be a very experienced user, so you could use the latest versions and report problems with their solution eventually.

I and other Gutsy beta users had a problem after the latest ATI driver update. The problem was noticed by a Gutsy developer and I hope it will allow them to make the latest ATI driver work correctly when Gutsy is released.

Everyday users shouldn't have to hack stuff, but I think experienced users should if they have the time.
The more experienced the testers, the more it helps the developers.
(yes, usability tests with everyday users is also useful, but that's another kind of testing)

...because the everyday user won't download Dapper. He'll download the latest current stable version.

Bathrone
August 24th, 2007, 06:14 PM
Gday from Australia everyone

/rant

I have been involved in ICT for some decades now. My attitude has largely been that MS rules the desktop space, but Unix and its cousins are great for reliable server solutions.

I really like the Ubuntu philosophy and I figured I'd take a leap away from Vista. Parlty because the betas were over and the "excitement" had gone where with Linux I could continually play and extend the software. Plus also I wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

I am highly skilled on MS desktop and server OS's. With UNIX, I know a bit about AIX, Sun and Linux but its limited to professional use at work on servers - mainly DB stuff.

My experience was not positive at all and I think either Linux needs more years under its belt or I'm somehow to blame.

I started with Ubuntu 7.04. Did the live thing, took my time to research what file format to choose and got it all happening. Then the grief started with not having a clear way to manage my devices and see what graphics driver I was running. Went through the restricted ati driver install which didnt work in the Ubuntu deb package. Found another craptastic package that didnt work and finally after much google searching found a utility to install it. Next problem, I cant set my crt to refresh at 100HZ. Much more stuffing around I eventually find a web application to insert arcane command syntax into the config file for vertical and horizontal refresh rates. Reboot, now it thinks I have two monitors. And it wont remember my setting for 100hz after reboot and I have to set it manually each time. Far too much time wasted on an overly difficult process simply to manage my devices, drivers and configure them. Vista this whole crap would have taken me less than five minutes.

Then the little things start being noticed. The graphic ps task manager utility in gnome has a graphics bug where the numbers for processor use overlap each other. And generally the icons look crappy and not spiffy like Aero. So I think, lets get some fusion composting happening. Big mistake. More countless hours spent stuffing around on poorly useable software full og bugs.

So I return back to normal gnome and I know its a bit silly but the interface is just annoying me with its lack of eye candy. I admit it. So I wipe the partition and go Kubuntu. Ohhh yes better. Now I have right mouse clicking, a better more useable interface and its looks better. Then the hassles start there too. No graphical task manager. Hassles configuring the applications installed by default that I want to get rid of. Worse of all I have the installer crash and every attempt to redo it results in an error about the installer engine already running. So I waste more time going onto IRC to figure out what the bizzare and arcane command is in the terminal to shut the dam thing down and restart it. And no, a reboot didnt fix it.

If I'm having problems with getting used to a new desktop OS youve got totally a snowballs chance in hell of an inexperienced person ever dealing with Linux in an effective manner. The useability plain sucks in all truth.

Now Im not aftera flame war so if you think I am greatly mistaken and have been totally blinded by MS propaganda I *will* give it another go, just cos I think it might be fun to get involved in the community. But guys, I really dont think I have made a huge mistake and I think really Ive given this OS more time than what I probably should have already.

What I think is this : Unix is great for command line servers but desktop is way off from competing with MS. The real competitor is Mac OSX. My wife has a macbook pro. It has the Unix like stuff under the hood but it has good usability, nice eyecandy and really just polishes the whole experience into something that isnt akin to going to the dentist like linux is.

The problem is MacOSX hardly runs on any hardware and what hardware is done run on Apple is waaaay to slow to update - like the G92 is about to be released soon and look at what crap apple is supplying its mac pro with for video cards.

The advantage Linux has is that it has a really solid core from Unix, and it runs on lots of hardware that Apple will never support. The problem is youve all become too fragmented. You have gnome and KDE. What a waste of finite talent to split it up like that. You have all these competing package formats on different distros. Again same problem. Its all too sloppy and not polished. And when you want to do simple tasks it ends up a nightmare of arcane syntax and manual steps that have to looked up for no good reason that should just be simple mouse clicks to do.

When I look around and compare the critical security patches and unpacted exploits I see Linux having more than Vista. It isnt the case anymore that MS release bad code. They have a totally rigorous secure dev methodology and toolset now. Yes it took them ages and they old stuff was crap but its 2007 now.

I love you all I dont mean to be a jerk Im just trying to share my mind and my experience honestly. Im happy for someone to challenge me that Im doing something wrong It cant be this hard for you all who love Ubuntu.

freebird54
August 24th, 2007, 07:18 PM
You have some good points. However, there is ONE major factor that you have left out of your reckoning.

Previous computer experience is a double-edged sword for those coming to Linux. To the extent that you have seen what CAN be done, and thus know it should be there, it is a GOOD thing. To the extent that you have been doing it on Windows, however, it can be a BAD thing. There are enough differences (just enough) to make the transition MORE difficult than for those without such extensive Windows experience.

My own transition was much easier than what you describe (though I expected worse). I attribute this (after all - this is ALL opinion, right?) to the fact that my previous computing experience was much WIDER than just Windows. In fact - although I am supposedly a computer 'guru' (to those completely uninformed:) ) - I was never a Windows 'expert'. I came to Linux through a line that included Commodore 64/128 and the Amiga - with just enough exposure to DOS/Win to get work done, and to dislike the lack of power and flexibility that it possessed. When Windows became (for most practical purposes) the only survivor, I reluctantly learned enough to get my own purposes fulfilled.

When I came to Linux, therefore, I had ALTERNATIVE experience to draw upon (than Windows) and found the move much easier than I anticipated. I find SOME things rather 'dated' (the scripting language and some of the command names) and the monolithic kernel causes some problems I didn't 'expect' to work around - but the differences from Windows were much less of a problem.

SO - I find that Linux is as ready for the desktop as ANYTHING out there - but it has a fully earned reputation for 'obscureness' when living out at the edge. In Windows, when you try something 'on the edge', it either works, or it doesn't (and then you wait for the release). In Linux, you are tantalized by knowing that there SHOULD be a way, and thus go through much more difficulties trying to make it happen before its time. On Mac - you don't even try :)

Remember - as far as we have come (whatever the OS) there is MUCH further to go than the distance traversed so far. At least Linux is moving forward (as is Mac) whereas Windows appears to be side-tracked at the moment into realms of 'content delivery control' and other irrelevancies.

igoddard
August 24th, 2007, 10:36 PM
I read your post a little quickly, but from what I understand you use dapper instead of the newer versions because some things don't work with them anymore.

I don't know if you reported back the problems you experienced and how to solve them, but I hope you did.
You seem to be a very experienced user, so you could use the latest versions and report problems with their solution eventually.

I and other Gutsy beta users had a problem after the latest ATI driver update. The problem was noticed by a Gutsy developer and I hope it will allow them to make the latest ATI driver work correctly when Gutsy is released.

Everyday users shouldn't have to hack stuff, but I think experienced users should if they have the time.
The more experienced the testers, the more it helps the developers.
(yes, usability tests with everyday users is also useful, but that's another kind of testing)

...because the everyday user won't download Dapper. He'll download the latest current stable version.

I posted the latest problem on Desktop - I have to go and see if anyone has a solution (more on this below).

I think, however, my point has been missed. The real problem isn't these individual issues, it's the underlying approach. It's the approach which, to pick another example, let OpenSuse be released knowing that there was a bug in the online update but that didn't matter because it could be fixed with an online update. It's the approach which results in most open source project home pages having virtually no overview of what the project does or what it needs to work with and consisting almost entirely of "news" items which simply list bug fixes; the newcomer is made to feel that this is project is for members of a clique of which he isn't part.

On the more specific point I am *not* going mess about with latest "stable" versions on my everyday box, let alone betas. And I certainly can't afford to provide myself with a second laptop to smoke test everything. Hence the preference for Dapper - LTS = Long Term Stability. If you've worked as a SysAdmin or DBA you tend to prize stability above functionality, if you've worked as a Unix Sysadmin on the likes of HP-UX or AIX (or even SCO) you tend to take it for granted.

A few hours ago I returned to check if there'd been any replies to the post on the USB issue. There weren't but I browsed down that forum and found a complaint from a number of Gutsy testers complaining about a change on Gnome. I followed the link to the discussion thread with the developer. I found the whole thing very worrying, not because it affected me directly - I use little Gnome and have no intention of going to a later version in the near future, which won't surprise you.

What worried me was this. The complaint seemed to be that (a) a wholesale change had been made to the user interface and (b) it had been promoted from an applet to an app. Users wanted to be able to retain the old behaviour, at least as an option. The developer's stance was (a) he wasn't going to change it and (b) even if he did it wouldn't happen now because there was a code freeze just after the version went out to users. Where I come from you don't freeze stuff until after the user sign-off and in no way could the feedback he was getting count as a sign-off. I have no particular interest in pillorying the guy concerned - he may well have had his reasons, in fact he said that the previous code was in a bad way, he'd had to refactor it and the refactored code could no longer do what the users wanted. The real problem here seems to suggest that the development process is broken and in particular the user's interests seem to be the last thing to be considered.

Ian

aysiu
August 24th, 2007, 10:42 PM
And I certainly can't afford to provide myself with a second laptop to smoke test everything. Hence the preference for Dapper - LTS = Long Term Stability. This is a misconception that's perpetuated too often on these forums. LTS stands for Long-Term Support, not Long-Term Stability. It means that the release will continue to receive security updates for three years on the desktop and five years on the server (as opposed to non-LTS releases, which receive eighteen months of support).

Definitely, though, if you want stability, do not upgrade to a new release right away. Give it two months to get the major bugs worked out. Now that Feisty has been out for four months, though, it isn't any less stable than Dapper is.

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 12:36 AM
:confused:
The advantage Linux has is that it has a really solid core from Unix, and it runs on lots of hardware that Apple will never support. The problem is youve all become too fragmented. You have gnome and KDE. What a waste of finite talent to split it up like that. You have all these competing package formats on different distros. Again same problem. Its all too sloppy and not polished. And when you want to do simple tasks it ends up a nightmare of arcane syntax and manual steps that have to looked up for no good reason that should just be simple mouse clicks to do.
I agree with you, linux community is way too fragmented, is not only KDE and gNome, but what about the hundreds of distributions? which some of them has few or not difference that the one they are based on futhermore than the name and some minor aspects.



but its 2007 now.

I dont think linux community have realized that we are in the XXI century, linux still doesnt have full mouse/video card support :confused:


One thing that disturbs me about linux is that once you install it in your computer, your computer is not yours anymore, but root's so everytime you want to do something you have to put root's password, your HDDs are not yours either, you cannont create a folder in "/" unless you do ir from the terminal (primitive) and by preceding by "sudo" and putting the password. After all this does not offers so much extra security, think about this, linux does not encrypt any partition, so if you really want to access to the partition and you dont have a password you could simply boot the system with a live cd! so in otherwords that "security" only works to annoy the actual owner of the PC, futhermore, for a Home-Desktop computer it is very probable that only trustworthy people will be abble to access (physically) to the computer, so the password function is only annoying. Something that really bothered me was when I installed Azureus and it told me that it will update itself, so i told it, go ahead, and it downloaded the update package and when it was "updating itself" an error poped up saying that it had no permissions to acces /opt/azureus (i dont remmeber if it was opt or opt or whatever) so it took me more than 15 mins to find information and create a "sudo launcher" so i could open the file and change the permissions "graphically" since i dont know the commands to do it from the terminal (neither i want to know them, we are in the 21 century, commands and terminal where past century stuff, from now on, is graphic, and maybe voice in the future)

Another bigtime problem was trying to install AWN, hehe, well some days ago asyiu was telling me that almost all programs where in the repositories at least the most popular ones, well at that time i really didnt came up with one, since i did remember that i didnt find some but im not good remembering names, then i remember how much trouble AWN gave me when installing it, first i tried to find it in Add/Remove programs and synaptica mananager (with all repo activated) nothing came up (i also tried looking for avant window navigator and nothing) so i went to the main site and followed the instructions, no mather how many times i tried, it will always show me the same error that didnt gave me any clue what was wrong, (one of those error that its just blah blah blah, and that lacks of gramatic sense), anyways, i google the error and after 20 mins guess what? i was missing some dependencies, so voila installed them and the dependecies and the program installed flawlessly, (AFTER 1hour 20mins) hahahaha, but then the program would show up in the menu but once i click it, it wouldnt run!!! not even after restart!! so i gave up using that program.

tgm4883
August 25th, 2007, 12:54 AM
:confused:
I agree with you, linux community is way too fragmented, is not only KDE and gNome, but what about the hundreds of distributions? which some of them has few or not difference that the one they are based on futhermore than the name and some minor aspects.



I dont think linux community have realized that we are in the XXI century, linux still doesnt have full mouse/video card support :confused:


One thing that disturbs me about linux is that once you install it in your computer, your computer is not yours anymore, but root's so everytime you want to do something you have to put root's password, your HDDs are not yours either, you cannont create a folder in "/" unless you do ir from the terminal (primitive) and by preceding by "sudo" and putting the password. After all this does not offers so much extra security, think about this, linux does not encrypt any partition, so if you really want to access to the partition and you dont have a password you could simply boot the system with a live cd! so in otherwords that "security" only works to annoy the actual owner of the PC, futhermore, for a Home-Desktop computer it is very probable that only trustworthy people will be abble to access (physically) to the computer, so the password function is only annoying. Something that really bothered me was when I installed Azureus and it told me that it will update itself, so i told it, go ahead, and it downloaded the update package and when it was "updating itself" an error poped up saying that it had no permissions to acces /opt/azureus (i dont remmeber if it was opt or opt or whatever) so it took me more than 15 mins to find information and create a "sudo launcher" so i could open the file and change the permissions "graphically" since i dont know the commands to do it from the terminal (neither i want to know them, we are in the 21 century, commands and terminal where past century stuff, from now on, is graphic, and maybe voice in the future)

Another bigtime problem was trying to install AWN, hehe, well some days ago asyiu was telling me that almost all programs where in the repositories at least the most popular ones, well at that time i really didnt came up with one, since i did remember that i didnt find some but im not good remembering names, then i remember how much trouble AWN gave me when installing it, first i tried to find it in Add/Remove programs and synaptica mananager (with all repo activated) nothing came up (i also tried looking for avant window navigator and nothing) so i went to the main site and followed the instructions, no mather how many times i tried, it will always show me the same error that didnt gave me any clue what was wrong, (one of those error that its just blah blah blah, and that lacks of gramatic sense), anyways, i google the error and after 20 mins guess what? i was missing some dependencies, so voila installed them and the dependecies and the program installed flawlessly, (AFTER 1hour 20mins) hahahaha, but then the program would show up in the menu but once i click it, it wouldnt run!!! not even after restart!! so i gave up using that program.

You really need to learn how things work. I'm not going to bother with the security stuff (just think about malicious programs). AWN on the other hand, is available in non official repos. Ubuntu developers are not responsible for things that are in non official repos, it is someone elses job to follow some simple guidelines and get the package into the official repos. That person (or team) then becomes the maintainer of the program (after all, how are ubuntu developers supposed to maintain over 20,000 packages?). It's not that hard to get something into the official repos, just some rules to follow. If you would have searched the forums, you would have found the repo for AWN which contains packages for 32 and 64 bit in feisty and 64 bit in gutsy. When the maintainer of those packages decides to adhere to the rules for the universe repo, then the package will be in the official repos. I would bug the maintainer if I were you. Or you could simply add the unofficial repo to your sources.list

Kiddalee
August 25th, 2007, 01:25 AM
Customizability:
- Windows XP hardly comes with 3 themes, blue, silver and green, I think I was able to change the font size. I can also change up to 4 icons: My Computer, My documents , Recycle bin and Recycle bin (full). I am not sure if there is more customization options, I certainly couldn't find much from the menu maze, ooh I think I can also change the wallpaper..

Don't take me for a Windows lover. I'd just like to point out that besides the three XP themes, it is possible to revert to the old, less gaudy style, and find dozens of themes for it. You can also make that whatever set of colours you want. Unfortunately, I couldn't get it to save my themes, even though there was a button for that.

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 02:08 AM
You really need to learn how things work. I'm not going to bother with the security stuff (just think about malicious programs). AWN on the other hand, is available in non official repos. Ubuntu developers are not responsible for things that are in non official repos, it is someone elses job to follow some simple guidelines and get the package into the official repos. That person (or team) then becomes the maintainer of the program (after all, how are ubuntu developers supposed to maintain over 20,000 packages?). It's not that hard to get something into the official repos, just some rules to follow. If you would have searched the forums, you would have found the repo for AWN which contains packages for 32 and 64 bit in feisty and 64 bit in gutsy. When the maintainer of those packages decides to adhere to the rules for the universe repo, then the package will be in the official repos. I would bug the maintainer if I were you. Or you could simply add the unofficial repo to your sources.list

aww come on, you really know how hard and slow is to get something done by browsing forums? first of 80% or linux related forum are almost unreadable (i dont know what people are thinking when they use the typewriter-like font to write in forums, its is sooooo hard to read!!!!) and when you do find an answer is like from out of the space. check the answer that a guy gave to another in a forum that i by chance found.
The guy was asking how to change resolution in linux (probably a new user) and the other guy answer him to go to terminal and do some stuff (like 2 pages of codes and idications, i dont remember the exact files and indications but i think he said him to modify xorg.conf or something like that) well to make the history short the guy with the problem coudnt fix the resolution and after 5-7 pages of begging for help and people anwering him to modify this or that file and do this and this other thing, someone appeared and told him to go to system, admin setting, resolutions and choose the one he preffered, and that was alll, problem resolved!!!! what i wanted to point with this example that i hardly remembered is that there is a global trend for linux user to get complicated to to overuse termnial and commands!!! (as well as the GUI for some reason doesnt not have the same power than the terminal [crazy eh?])

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 02:13 AM
You really need to learn how things work. I'm not going to bother with the security stuff (just think about malicious programs).

Well windows i know sucks regarding security (perhaps is more because there are more users, consequently people have more reasons to make virus and any other potential threat) but MacOS in the other hand wont bother the user SO MUCH asking passwords even for open another volume, still is as secure as linux! so i dont see the reason why linux would ask me the password everytime im trying to do something. it is like puting a lock to all the rooms in your home and you have to use the key to open the bathroom's door the office's door, the kitchen's door, etc.

tgm4883
August 25th, 2007, 02:20 AM
aww come on, you really know how hard and slow is to get something done by browsing forums? first of 80% or linux related forum are almost unreadable (i dont know what people are thinking when they use the typewriter-like font to write in forums, its is sooooo hard to read!!!!) and when you do find an answer is like from out of the space. check the answer that a guy gave to another in a forum that i by chance found.
The guy was asking how to change resolution in linux (probably a new user) and the other guy answer him to go to terminal and do some stuff (like 2 pages of codes and idications, i dont remember the exact files and indications but i think he said him to modify xorg.conf or something like that) well to make the history short the guy with the problem coudnt fix the resolution and after 5-7 pages of begging for help and people anwering him to modify this or that file and do this and this other thing, someone appeared and told him to go to system, admin setting, resolutions and choose the one he preffered, and that was alll, problem resolved!!!! what i wanted to point with this example that i hardly remembered is that there is a global trend for linux user to get complicated to to overuse termnial and commands!!! (as well as the GUI for some reason doesnt not have the same power than the terminal [crazy eh?])

Oh cry me a river, you didn't give one friggin half *** attempt. Here it is right here, in the first 10 threads right in the title "HOWTO: functional eye-candy with Avant-Window-Navigator and Affinity"

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 02:37 AM
Oh cry me a river, you didn't give one friggin half *** attempt. Here it is right here, in the first 10 threads right in the title "HOWTO: functional eye-candy with Avant-Window-Navigator and Affinity"
actually i installed it the first time flawlessly following that guide, but then i got a problem in the computer and had to install ubuntu again, then following the guide i would get an error!!! after 45m and some web research i found that i was missing some dependecies (omg why so much complication) and after i installed them the program installed also, but at the end the program didnt run!, anyways do you really think that the user should have to browse tons of forums to get his system runing "smoothly" when "supposedly" ubuntu is "desktop ready"? let me tell you something, i dont like win because is so slow, and crashes every 1 min, but when i was introduced to computer with win98 for first time (that i didnt know a single thing, my aunt hardly show me how to open the paint so i could draw and entertain myself) i could in a couple of weeks learn and in 2-3 months i would "know" about everything i needed to write docs, etc (just to point out, i learned it without browsing forums or anything like that, only intuitively, in fact i didnt have internet at that time) now that i got years of experience and with the help of forums linux have been still a lot harder!

beside why make it all so complicated!!!!!!!

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 02:43 AM
edited

tgm4883
August 25th, 2007, 04:35 AM
actually i installed it the first time flawlessly following that guide, but then i got a problem in the computer and had to install ubuntu again, then following the guide i would get an error!!! after 45m and some web research i found that i was missing some dependecies (omg why so much complication) and after i installed them the program installed also, but at the end the program didnt run!, anyways do you really think that the user should have to browse tons of forums to get his system runing "smoothly" when "supposedly" ubuntu is "desktop ready"? let me tell you something, i dont like win because is so slow, and crashes every 1 min, but when i was introduced to computer with win98 for first time (that i didnt know a single thing, my aunt hardly show me how to open the paint so i could draw and entertain myself) i could in a couple of weeks learn and in 2-3 months i would "know" about everything i needed to write docs, etc (just to point out, i learned it without browsing forums or anything like that, only intuitively, in fact i didnt have internet at that time) now that i got years of experience and with the help of forums linux have been still a lot harder!

beside why make it all so complicated!!!!!!!

It's not complicated. Last I checked, you don't NEED AWN to make it desktop ready. For the most part (barring some funky hardware), Ubuntu works OOB and is completely desktop ready. Plop the CD in, tell it to install, go make a sandwich (or use the computer while it's installing). There is absolutely ZERO difference in the learning curve that you mentioned in Windows 98 to Ubuntu for the different things that you mentioned. So don't give me this crap about how much worse Linux is than Windows or how hard Linux is to use.

I'm ok with however misinformed and incompetent you actually are, because at the end of the day i'm still using Ubuntu.

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 05:29 AM
It's not complicated. Last I checked, you don't NEED AWN to make it desktop ready.

I know i dont need AWN!!!! this was just an example of how complicated installations and resolving problems can get, in the last two weeks i tried to install about 40 programs (since im new i wanted to know which ones i'd like) and at least 5 of them gave me a bigtime headache. and i also know that one have to get use the a new OS since they are not equal, however for example, using mac os x is a lot easier than using linux (dont tell me that is because i got experience with mac os x since i got uhm.... 2hours top experiece with mac and over 2 month experience with ubuntu) just that in mac os everything is where it should + the system wont bother you asking you password for everything, applications are copy paste and run, it is secure, it is pretty, etc, dont get me wrong, i still got hope on linux, i really like the ubuntu philosophy and agree is a powerful OS, but trust me aint ready!

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 05:32 AM
What works in 32-bit also works in 64-bit. Anyone that says otherwise is a liar
what about itanium?

w4ett
August 25th, 2007, 05:47 AM
but trust me aint ready!

It isn't ready for whom?...I have 7 computers in my family, all running Ubuntu..3 college students, 2 high school, and 1 middle school student (who doesn't have her own PC yet) .and I also have one test machine. We don't seem to have any of the issues you have experienced. Additionally, none are dual boot except one, which is reserved to view online full episode content from ABC.com...which is not my OS's fault, surely... :)

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 05:55 AM
It isn't ready for whom?...I have 7 computers in my family, all running Ubuntu..3 college students, 2 high school, and 1 middle school student (who doesn't have her own PC yet) .and I also have one test machine. We don't seem to have any of the issues you have experienced. Additionally, none are dual boot except one, which is reserved to view online full episode content from ABC.com...which is not my OS's fault, surely... :)

well if it where it wouldnt be almost 500pages and over 5,000 of replies to this thread dont you think? and surelly people can use it, i dont say it is impossible, just it consumes too much time to do simple stuff! anyways people can get used to do anything even if it is hard.

tgm4883
August 25th, 2007, 05:57 AM
I know i dont need AWN!!!! this was just an example of how complicated installations and resolving problems can get, in the last two weeks i tried to install about 40 programs (since im new i wanted to know which ones i'd like) and at least 5 of them gave me a bigtime headache. and i also know that one have to get use the a new OS since they are not equal, however for example, using mac os x is a lot easier than using linux (dont tell me that is because i got experience with mac os x since i got uhm.... 2hours top experiece with mac and over 2 month experience with ubuntu) just that in mac os everything is where it should + the system wont bother you asking you password for everything, applications are copy paste and run, it is secure, it is pretty, etc, dont get me wrong, i still got hope on linux, i really like the ubuntu philosophy and agree is a powerful OS, but trust me aint ready!

Would you like to know how to login as root? That can be arranged. As for the 5 programs, what were they? I know my way windows and Linux, but haven't really touched a mac. Are they really that easy to deal with? Perhaps you should be using a Mac then.

Oh, and the itanium. Can you install 64-bit linux on it? If so, then yes, what works on 32-bit will work on 64-bit (barring some large hardware difference between the two)

tgm4883
August 25th, 2007, 05:59 AM
well if it where it wouldnt be almost 500pages and over 5,000 of replies to this thread dont you think? and surelly people can use it, i dont say it is impossible, just it consumes too much time to do simple stuff! anyways people can get used to do anything even if it is hard.

You're assuming that all those replies are people saying that it isn't ready. And you know if you assume...

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 06:11 AM
You're assuming that all those replies are people saying that it isn't ready. And you know if you assume...

if you assume what? people assume all the time, thats what makes the difference!


Would you like to know how to login as root? That can be arranged. As for the 5 programs, what were they? I know my way windows and Linux, but haven't really touched a mac. Are they really that easy to deal with? Perhaps you should be using a Mac then.

Oh, and the itanium. Can you install 64-bit linux on it? If so, then yes, what works on 32-bit will work on 64-bit (barring some large hardware difference between the two)

thats what everyone tries to do when someone comes up with a problem that shouldnt exist in a OS that is ready for desktop, they try to guide you to solve whatever bothered you, thats great that you offer to help me, or anyone else, however those problem should not exist to beging with, thats its what this is all about.
and yes i should be using mac, sadly i didnt choose very well when i bought a pc instead of a mac, now sadly i would have to wait a bit until this pc gets old enough. anyways what you are suggesting is that i shouldnt leave feedback?


and im not an expert but as far as i know 64-bit linux can run 32-bit application because the processor [AMD and Intel are 64-bit ready but compatible with 32bit (can run 32bit instructions) ] however itanium is a 100% 64bit processor (i think this kind of processor has being discontinuated, it is old (5-10 years?)) which mean that cant run 32bit applications (perhaps with some kind of very complicated emulator?) anyways

just to add up a couple of more problems, flash (adobe's flash, which i know it is independently from ubuntu) will crash any browser randomly, i have spent over 48hours (not at once offcourse) trying to fix this and i have tried over 15 "solutions" none works. Couldnt get a VCD to play with any program nor after installing cdfs.

AbacusDev
August 25th, 2007, 06:17 AM
Ubuntu is, of course, already very robust as a desktop OS, but here are a few necessary additions:
--fully-featured Palm-OS/Symbian/Sharp Zaurus/etc. device desktop software that includes calendar, contacts w/ custom fields, media download for pictures and videos, emai, .prc/file etc. install program
--GUI-based mp3/ogg/m4a player and podcasting software that supports limited number of episode downloads (e.g. last five) that's native to Gnome
--hotswap USB/bluetooth GUI-based software to autodetect and quickly manage devices, also native to Gnome
--GPS software to interact with Garmin, Magellan, etc.

Cheers, TomR

w4ett
August 25th, 2007, 06:19 AM
well if it where it wouldnt be almost 500pages and over 5,000 of replies to this thread dont you think? and surelly people can use it, i dont say it is impossible, just it consumes too much time to do simple stuff! anyways people can get used to do anything even if it is hard.

Well, It takes me about 30 minutes to install and configure an Ubuntu system with Compiz Fusion....how long does it take for you to configure a Vista install with Aero?....

From start to finish...ready to go...that's what I'm talking about...Darn it...Vista says my Video Card isn't compatible...What do I do now....call the Microsoft Tech support hotline? (maybe I should have asked somebody before I spent $149 + Shipping +tax before I ordered my upgrade disk from Newegg to realize I needed another Gig of memory and a 256 MB video card, so I can fully "Experience" Windows Vista!)

On when I am running the Ubuntu live CD, do I log into the Forum and ask the question and wait 20 minutes for an answer, without listening to the benefits of the Microsoft Genuine Advantage while enjoying internet connectivity and responding to your post?

Sheesh!

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 06:27 AM
Well, It takes me about 30 minutes to install and configure an Ubuntu system with Compiz Fusion....how long does it take for you to configure a Vista install with Aero?....

From start to finish...ready to go...that's what I'm talking about...Darn it...Vista says my Video Card isn't compatible...What do I do now....call the Microsoft Tech support hotline? (maybe I should have asked somebody before I spent $149 + Shipping +tax before I ordered my upgrade disk from Newegg to realize I needed another Gig of memory and a 256 MB video card, so I can fully "Experience" Windows Vista!)

On when I am running the Ubuntu live CD, do I log into the Forum and ask the question and wait 20 minutes for an answer, without listening to the benefits of the Microsoft Genuine Advantage while enjoying internet connectivity and responding to your post?

Sheesh!

why are you in "defensive" mode. for each flaw/bug/userfriendless thing someone says about linux you would come with a parallel thing that is wrong with windows? thats the way you think linux will evolve and develop? smart...
well great you got a super duper 256mb video car, what advantages can you get from it from linux? a super graphic consuming game? a powerful 3d rendering software like 3dmax? beryl? o i almost forgot beryl doesnt need such a Graphic card

Seti
August 25th, 2007, 06:27 AM
I waited a few moments for my ubuntu install disc to finish burning. Once it was done it was ready for my desktop.

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 06:31 AM
I waited a few moments for my ubuntu install disc to finish burning. Once it was done it was ready for my desktop.

same here, the installation is awsome, fast, easy, and the only thing that bodered (not with ubuntu, but with an old version of redhat 7.0) was that there was nothing that would tell you to put "/" as mounting point, which is being "fixed" in ubuntu (it has an small direction in the3/4 step of the installation when you create partitions) so basically is great i give it 10/10.
its the rest what bothers me!

w4ett
August 25th, 2007, 06:52 AM
why are you in "defensive" mode. for each flaw/bug/userfriendless thing someone says about linux you would come with a parallel thing that is wrong with windows? thats the way you think linux will evolve and develop? smart...
well great you got a super duper 256mb video car, what advantages can you get from it from linux? a super graphic consuming game? a powerful 3d rendering software like 3dmax? beryl? o i almost forgot beryl doesnt need such a Graphic card

I certainly don't own or have a need for a 256 MB card...I don't run Vista Aero...and never intend to( if I did, I would need to buy one though) Both of 'my' machines have 128 Mb video cards..one ATI, and one Nvidia.

I am pointing out the differences in the user's mindset.

The old adage: pick the software you want to run, then buy the Microsoft OS to run it, just doesn't apply anymore...I don't need to use MS Office, Powerpoint or Outlook to get my business done.

There has been a paradigm shift...admit it...that's why you are here anyway.

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 06:59 AM
I certainly don't own or have a need for a 256 MB card...I don't run Vista Aero...and never intend to( if I did, I would need to buy one though) Both of 'my' machines have 128 Mb video cards..one ATI, and one Nvidia.

I am pointing out the differences in the user's mindset.

The old adage: pick the software you want to run, then buy the Microsoft OS to run it, just doesn't apply anymore...I don't need to use MS Office, Powerpoint or Outlook to get my business done.

There has been a paradigm shift...admit it...that's why you are here anyway.

exacly because of that is why im here, because i want to get rid of windows, nothing less nothing more, just that linux isent yet ready for me, perhaps if i where i fresh new user it would be easier to get use to some thing but....
my only objetive for now is to give feedback, i have also noticed that a lot of people find some key feature of linux rather "primitive" or too complicated, and most of the times the linux community just answer saying that everything its okey and offers a solution to that :confused:

w4ett
August 25th, 2007, 07:25 AM
exacly because of that is why im here, because i want to get rid of windows, nothing less nothing more, just that linux isent yet ready for me, perhaps if i where i fresh new user it would be easier to get use to some thing but....
my only objetive for now is to give feedback, i have also noticed that a lot of people find some key feature of linux rather "primitive" or too complicated, and most of the times the linux community just answer saying that everything its okey and offers a solution to that :confused:

Then if Linux isn't ready for you maybe you need to make yourself ready for Linux.

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

Grab the "LINUX EXPERIENCE" by the horns and learn something new....This isn't Redmond, Toto

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 07:47 AM
Then if Linux isn't ready for you maybe you need to make yourself ready for Linux.

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

Grab the "LINUX EXPERIENCE" by the horns and learn something new....This isn't Redmond, Toto

I just browsed a bit the article, it seams that the articles purporse is to make the user more confortable with the change. I dont have trouble with change, i could change to mac os right away, the problem is that linux is like an abacus, fully functional but primitive, in the right hands an abacus can perform accurate calculations faster than a person with a calculator, just that it takes too much time to perfectionate and to practice/get use to it, thats why people never buys abacus (unless you live in eastern countries) and rather buy electric calculators, the same happends with linux, it can do anything, just that its harder, and takes time to practice and to learn it. probably it is the only modern OS that has still a console that is actually needed (mac os has one, but as far as i know it is rarely used) and a condole, means you have to learn hundreds and thousands of commands, and syntaxt, etc!

DjBones
August 25th, 2007, 08:17 AM
hasn't linux always been ready for the people willing to use it?
if windows/mac/bsd/solaris/linux works better for some people, thats what choice is all about..
FOSS doesn't need to take the world by storm, its gotten this far just basically by word of mouth and countless man hours of hardwork from comparatively few developers..
do people realize that open source isn't in a hurry?
I think that because its gaining steam now, and more people are starting to pick up linux, it will snow ball and alot of the roadblocks like drivers and games will eventually be resolved.

I've always gotten the feeling, that anybody that was disgusted by DRM's, closed-source, and spyware would eventually find linux anyway haha

darrenm
August 25th, 2007, 09:17 AM
Gday from Australia everyone

/rant

I have been involved in ICT for some decades now. My attitude has largely been that MS rules the desktop space, but Unix and its cousins are great for reliable server solutions.

Gday mate. I'm probably more of the opposite opinion these days but I'll let you carry on...


I really like the Ubuntu philosophy and I figured I'd take a leap away from Vista. Parlty because the betas were over and the "excitement" had gone where with Linux I could continually play and extend the software. Plus also I wanted to see what all the fuss was about.

There hasn't really been all that much excitement about Vista outside of heavy marketing from computer chains that try anything to shift more PC's and see Vista as something different to shout about.


I am highly skilled on MS desktop and server OS's. With UNIX, I know a bit about AIX, Sun and Linux but its limited to professional use at work on servers - mainly DB stuff.

It all helps. You will be better suited to the command line in Linux then. If you're a DBA then you will know you get far more power from being able to work from the terminal.


My experience was not positive at all and I think either Linux needs more years under its belt or I'm somehow to blame.

I started with Ubuntu 7.04. Did the live thing, took my time to research what file format to choose and got it all happening.

There seems to be a big segmentation on the information available in the community and around the Internet. There's the old stuff that relates to older distributions like Red Hat 6/7 etc. then theres the new information relating to stuff like Mandriva 2007 and Ubuntu 6.10+ etc. The newer style distributions are a lot more complicated than older style ones because they have to do a lot more. Ubuntu is so much in the spotlight being by far the most popular distribution and aimed as much at the desktop/mobile as at the server and has to work with such wide ranging hardware like non-standard card readers in laptops, mobile internet devices etc yet still manages to pull it off (mostly). There are still some problems (as you have found out) but they are kind of understandable if you know why they happen and that they are going to happen. I think its mainly about not having unrealistic expectations which happens when you believe the hype. There should be no reason to research what file format to choose if you're using Ubuntu on a desktop/laptop. Ext3 is fine. Its like researching whether to use FAT32 or NTFS on Windows XP, why would anyone want to use FAT32 now?


Then the grief started with not having a clear way to manage my devices and see what graphics driver I was running.

Applications > Accessories > Terminal > xdriinfo

I agree its not clear. For ATi binary drivers its fglrxinfo instead. However...


Went through the restricted ati driver install which didnt work in the Ubuntu deb package. Found another craptastic package that didnt work and finally after much google searching found a utility to install it.

Thats the problem with binary drivers. The manufacturers make them as bad as the people using them will allow. And thats pretty bad because, well, they don't have to use them do they? Windows is the mass market so why bother putting any more than a couple of driver developers onto the Linux side of things? They can't/won't release hardware specs for the community to develop their own drivers so its the choice of poor or very poor. (fglrx vs ati) Been there, done that with ATi so I'm now smugly sitting here typing on an Intel i915 gfx laptop using open-source Intel provided drivers with Gutsy's extra effects turned on and fabulous performance. I didn't have to touch anything since installing, it just works.


Next problem, I cant set my crt to refresh at 100HZ. Much more stuffing around I eventually find a web application to insert arcane command syntax into the config file for vertical and horizontal refresh rates. Reboot, now it thinks I have two monitors. And it wont remember my setting for 100hz after reboot and I have to set it manually each time. Far too much time wasted on an overly difficult process simply to manage my devices, drivers and configure them. Vista this whole crap would have taken me less than five minutes.

Hmm, perhaps so now but I've been hearing that lots of drivers weren't forthcoming quickly for Vista. Maybe the situations ok now. Again its the binary drivers vs poor reversed engineered drivers. Lesson learned: Don't buy ATi. If you need top performance then NVidia at least release semi-decent binary drivers but only Intel OS everything.


Then the little things start being noticed. The graphic ps task manager utility in gnome has a graphics bug where the numbers for processor use overlap each other.

Again ATi.


And generally the icons look crappy and not spiffy like Aero. So I think, lets get some fusion composting happening. Big mistake. More countless hours spent stuffing around on poorly useable software full og bugs.

Again ATi. Compiz-Fusion won't work with ATi. (It can but it will be rubbish, you have to use XGL rather than X's built in compositing and its a hack. Try installing the Ubuntu Studio look for nice icons. Lots of people like Tango. Search Synaptic for "look" to find the look packages.


So I return back to normal gnome and I know its a bit silly but the interface is just annoying me with its lack of eye candy. I admit it.

Again ATi. Here's my £250 Intel based Celeron 1.5 laptop:
http://vcoc.co.uk/d/11224-2/Screenshot-1.png


So I wipe the partition and go Kubuntu. Ohhh yes better. Now I have right mouse clicking, a better more useable interface and its looks better. Then the hassles start there too. No graphical task manager.

I don't use KDE but I'm sure theres one quite easy to find.


Hassles configuring the applications installed by default that I want to get rid of. Worse of all I have the installer crash and every attempt to redo it results in an error about the installer engine already running. So I waste more time going onto IRC to figure out what the bizzare and arcane command is in the terminal to shut the dam thing down and restart it. And no, a reboot didnt fix it.

If I'm having problems with getting used to a new desktop OS youve got totally a snowballs chance in hell of an inexperienced person ever dealing with Linux in an effective manner. The useability plain sucks in all truth.

My advice: Get rid of ATi and use Intel. Or 2nd best Nvidia. Rather than me say "Well it works great for me" etc. can you expand a little on the useability plain sucks?


Now Im not aftera flame war so if you think I am greatly mistaken and have been totally blinded by MS propaganda I *will* give it another go, just cos I think it might be fun to get involved in the community. But guys, I really dont think I have made a huge mistake and I think really Ive given this OS more time than what I probably should have already.

Use whatevers best for you. Dont be a martyr. Market share has to reflect how good it is. If not then we get all these problems with people expecting a lot and being disappointed, going back to Microsoft and having the bad incorrect opinion If you're lucky enough to have the right hardware or do hardware research before even starting you dont need to touch anything.


What I think is this : Unix is great for command line servers but desktop is way off from competing with MS. The real competitor is Mac OSX. My wife has a macbook pro. It has the Unix like stuff under the hood but it has good usability, nice eyecandy and really just polishes the whole experience into something that isnt akin to going to the dentist like linux is.

Sell your ATi card, get an NVidia card then try again. When it boots up tick the NVidia driver in Restricted Manager.


The problem is MacOSX hardly runs on any hardware and what hardware is done run on Apple is waaaay to slow to update - like the G92 is about to be released soon and look at what crap apple is supplying its mac pro with for video cards.

The advantage Linux has is that it has a really solid core from Unix,

Unix is rubbish. Unix is what Linux was like 10 years ago. So much has happened since then and Unix has stood still.


and it runs on lots of hardware that Apple will never support. The problem is youve all become too fragmented. You have gnome and KDE. What a waste of finite talent to split it up like that. You have all these competing package formats on different distros. Again same problem. Its all too sloppy and not polished.

Right gotta pull you up there. Fragmentation is great. It enables the natural flow of programming resources (yes open-source is akin to communism... ;) ) It means that as soon as something gets good, people will start using it causing a snowball effect. Its happened with Ubuntu. Some people prefer Gnome, some prefer KDE. If the people that didn't like KDE didn't have Gnome then that would be some people that wouldn't be using Linux and more money in Microsofts pocket. Although if KDE 4 is as good as they say it will be then Gnome should lose a lot of users. Same with packaging, APT is infinitely better than any of the others and gets a lot more use with Ubuntu being so much more popular than any other distro so it looks like that will win out in the end and RPM's will be a thing of the past. The strongest OS products win in the end. Look at Apache.


And when you want to do simple tasks it ends up a nightmare of arcane syntax and manual steps that have to looked up for no good reason that should just be simple mouse clicks to do.

Examples please?


When I look around and compare the critical security patches and unpacted exploits I see Linux having more than Vista. It isnt the case anymore that MS release bad code. They have a totally rigorous secure dev methodology and toolset now. Yes it took them ages and they old stuff was crap but its 2007 now.

That really isn't true and has been debunked. It was an MS security programmer that came up with that little gem. MS count firefox bugs and other packages rolled in the install of Ubuntu but don't count IE bugs as relating to Vista. Plus they skew the importance of some exploits.


I love you all I dont mean to be a jerk Im just trying to share my mind and my experience honestly. Im happy for someone to challenge me that Im doing something wrong It cant be this hard for you all who love Ubuntu.

Thanks for a well reasoned post. But please substantiate some of your comments. :)

raul_
August 25th, 2007, 01:16 PM
Again ATi. Compiz-Fusion won't work with ATi. (It can but it will be rubbish, you have to use XGL rather than X's built in compositing and its a hack.

I'm using Compiz Fusion with ATI :P I'm using the Open Source driver with AIGLX

jafnob
August 25th, 2007, 01:43 PM
my only objetive for now is to give feedback

What you choose to call feedback most people refer to as trolling. Most of your silly statements have been answered a thousand times before. And although some may try to reason with you, most people just choose to ignore your ignorance and let you wear yourself out. Time is a resource after all.


the problem is that linux is like an abacus, fully functional but primitive

No YOU are the problem here as a new user throwing yourself at the latest betas and then run back crying and screaming when things break or you have to open up a terminal. Someone has to break this to you sooner or later anyway, so here you go.

darrenm
August 25th, 2007, 01:50 PM
I'm using Compiz Fusion with ATI :P I'm using the Open Source driver with AIGLX

Perhaps the ati X driver has got better since I used it. I found it terrible with a 9600XT. What card are you using?

raul_
August 25th, 2007, 02:10 PM
Perhaps the ati X driver has got better since I used it. I found it terrible with a 9600XT. What card are you using?

ATI Radeon 9550.

Compiz is very smooth although I'm using Arch Linux, which is an optimized distro, and for itself, very fast

tgm4883
August 25th, 2007, 03:48 PM
if you assume what? people assume all the time, thats what makes the difference!



thats what everyone tries to do when someone comes up with a problem that shouldnt exist in a OS that is ready for desktop, they try to guide you to solve whatever bothered you, thats great that you offer to help me, or anyone else, however those problem should not exist to beging with, thats its what this is all about.
and yes i should be using mac, sadly i didnt choose very well when i bought a pc instead of a mac, now sadly i would have to wait a bit until this pc gets old enough. anyways what you are suggesting is that i shouldnt leave feedback?


and im not an expert but as far as i know 64-bit linux can run 32-bit application because the processor [AMD and Intel are 64-bit ready but compatible with 32bit (can run 32bit instructions) ] however itanium is a 100% 64bit processor (i think this kind of processor has being discontinuated, it is old (5-10 years?)) which mean that cant run 32bit applications (perhaps with some kind of very complicated emulator?) anyways

just to add up a couple of more problems, flash (adobe's flash, which i know it is independently from ubuntu) will crash any browser randomly, i have spent over 48hours (not at once offcourse) trying to fix this and i have tried over 15 "solutions" none works. Couldnt get a VCD to play with any program nor after installing cdfs.

It still sounds like your barking up the wrong tree. Perhaps you should direct some of your concern to software manufactures.

Also, have you checked out 7.10 yet?

Frak
August 25th, 2007, 04:43 PM
Ubuntu is, of course, already very robust as a desktop OS, but here are a few necessary additions:
--fully-featured Palm-OS/Symbian/Sharp Zaurus/etc. device desktop software that includes calendar, contacts w/ custom fields, media download for pictures and videos, emai, .prc/file etc. install program

I think thats already built in


--GUI-based mp3/ogg/m4a player and podcasting software that supports limited number of episode downloads (e.g. last five) that's native to Gnome


sudo aptitude install democracyplayer


--hotswap USB/bluetooth GUI-based software to autodetect and quickly manage devices, also native to Gnome

I think it already does that, without a GUI, it just knows when you swap.


--GPS software to interact with Garmin, Magellan, etc.

Couldn't help you there, you could either search google for it, or search synaptic in System->Administration->Synaptic Package Manager

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 11:21 PM
DjBones wrote
FOSS doesn't need to take the world by storm, its gotten this far just basically by word of mouth and countless man hours of hardwork from comparatively few developers..
I dont quite agree with you, if you put all linux developers and programmers together probably it will be several times the ammount of developers that Microsoft (for example) has, just that Linux's developers are fractionated/divided into thousands of differents distros/versions.



darrenm wrote
It all helps. You will be better suited to the command line in Linux then. If you're a DBA then you will know you get far more power from being able to work from the terminal.

Terminal... it is that your idea of user friendly? :confused:


Applications > Accessories > Terminal > xdriinfo


:confused:



Hmm, perhaps so now but I've been hearing that lots of drivers weren't forthcoming quickly for Vista. Maybe the situations ok now. Again its the binary drivers vs poor reversed engineered drivers. Lesson learned: Don't buy ATi. If you need top performance then NVidia at least release semi-decent binary drivers but only Intel OS everything.
Thats a great advice when you buy the components and make the computer yourself, but when you buy the computer already assambled you will never get the "ideal" components that you want, more over ATI dominates at least 50% of graphic card market, so half people will have problem with ati+ubuntu.


My advice: Get rid of ATi and use Intel. Or 2nd best Nvidia. Rather than me say "Well it works great for me" etc. can you expand a little on the useability plain sucks?
Yes. he is right, in other words throw away the x1800xt that you bought last week and buy a new nVidia card! O wait, its that really a choice?


Sell your ATi card, get an NVidia card then try again. When it boots up tick the NVidia driver in Restricted Manager.

You really hate ATI dont you? do you heat ATI more than Microsoft? :confused:



Right gotta pull you up there. Fragmentation is great. It enables the natural flow of programming resources (yes open-source is akin to communism... ) It means that as soon as something gets good, people will start using it causing a snowball effect.

Just tell me one situation in which freagmentation is great!!!!! :lolflag:
Have you ever seen a football trainer to tell the player, lets go boys, lets play fragmented? :confused: i think you meant "diversity" but not fragmentation, have you ever heard the phrase "team work?"



Examples please?
Flash doesnt work.


What you choose to call feedback most people refer to as trolling. Most of your silly statements have been answered a thousand times before. And although some may try to reason with you, most people just choose to ignore your ignorance and let you wear yourself out. Time is a resource after all.

Saying that everything is OK doesnt mean it is, i must be such an ignorant :lolflag:!

w4ett
August 25th, 2007, 11:27 PM
Saying that everything is OK doesnt mean it is, i must be such an ignorant

REMEMBER.....we didn't say that.

I stand by my statement:


Originally Posted by w4ett
Then if Linux isn't ready for you maybe you need to make yourself ready for Linux.

popch
August 25th, 2007, 11:31 PM
i must be such an ignorant

If you say so.

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by w4ett
Then if Linux isn't ready for you maybe you need to make yourself ready for Linux.

Really? so your mean that the OS should not be programmed to fit the user needs, but rather the user should be able to do what the OS needs?:confused:

Steveway
August 25th, 2007, 11:39 PM
Thats a great advice when you buy the components and make the computer yourself, but when you buy the computer already assambled you will never get the "ideal" components that you want, more over ATI dominates at least 50% of graphic card market, so half people will have problem with ati+ubuntu.
That is not quite right.
The marketshare is like this:
Intel=37,4%
Nvidia=28,5%
ATI=23%
VIA=6,7%
SiS=4,5%
Matrox=~1%
You see? Less than a quarter.
And we don't hate ATI, ATI hates it's costumers, even their windowsdrivers suck, purple pill anyone?

zetetic
August 25th, 2007, 11:40 PM
I dont have trouble with change, i could change to mac os right away, the problem is that linux is like an abacus, fully functional but primitive

I could change to Windows right away. The problem is that windows is made only for primitive people.

w4ett
August 25th, 2007, 11:44 PM
Really? so your mean that the OS should not be programmed to fit the user needs, but rather the user should be able to do what the OS needs?:confused:
ROFLMAO.....Windows hasn't done exactly what i wanted it to do since Win98...even then there were problems. Windows Vista won't fulffill my requirements without massive tweaking.....Then I still have to run Spywaye Apps and anti-virus programs to rid myself of undesirable incursions by the zombie masters and the like.

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 11:45 PM
That is not quite right.
The marketshare is like this:
Intel=37,4%
Nvidia=28,5%
ATI=23%
VIA=6,7%
SiS=4,5%
Matrox=~1%
You see? Less than a quarter.
And we don't hate ATI, ATI hates it's costumers, even their windowsdrivers suck, purple pill anyone?

50% of dedicated graphic cards, not graphics "solutions" or "integrated"!

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 11:50 PM
ROFLMAO.....Windows hasn't done exactly what i wanted it to do since Win98...even then there were problems. Windows Vista won't fulffill my requirements without massive tweaking.....Then I still have to run Spywaye Apps and anti-virus programs to rid myself of undesirable incursions by the zombie masters and the like.

really? what kind of sites do you visit? for 2 month i havent catch any undesirable program and i dont have any anti-virus/antispyware.
Why do you always have to mention windows by the way? isent this a linux forum?

this seem that linux is not an operating system but a cult and you are workshiping it.

XogGyux
August 25th, 2007, 11:50 PM
I could change to Windows right away. The problem is that windows is made only for primitive people.

yes windows terminal is very primitive, o wait.. windows doesn't have one.

Coldkill
August 25th, 2007, 11:51 PM
XogGyux, would you PLEASE STOP TROLLING!!!!

Frak
August 25th, 2007, 11:55 PM
When in doubt...

Click XogGyux's name->view public profile->Add XogGyux to your ignore list

As I am doing now. Most of his arguments are empty.

w4ett
August 25th, 2007, 11:58 PM
really? what kind of sites do you visit? for 2 month i havent catch any undesirable program and i dont have any anti-virus/antispyware.
Why do you always have to mention windows by the way? isent this a linux forum?

this seem that linux is not an operating system but a cult and you are workshiping it.
If you don't have Anti-Virus or Anti-Spyware defenses, you have no way of knowing, unless you go the the Windows Registry and examine each line in the windows TERMINAL....lol

prizrak
August 26th, 2007, 12:01 AM
When in doubt...

Click XogGyux's name->view public profile->Add XogGyux to your ignore list

As I am doing now. Most of his arguments are empty.

Thanks for that one I couldn't figure out how to do that :)

XogGyux
August 26th, 2007, 12:12 AM
When in doubt...

Click XogGyux's name->view public profile->Add XogGyux to your ignore list

As I am doing now. Most of his arguments are empty.

Thats a great idea, if someone does make a point just ignore him, that way you can still claim you are doing the right thing.

Isn't it ironic that there is a thread titled "Linux Desktop Readiness" and then Linux's user just alienate whoever goes against their beliefs?

zetetic
August 26th, 2007, 12:22 AM
Thats a great idea, if someone does make a point just ignore him, that way you can still claim you are doing the right thing.

Isn't it ironic that there is a thread titled "Linux Desktop Readiness" and then Linux's user just alienate whoever goes against their beliefs?

You didn't choose your avatar for nothing...

Coldkill
August 26th, 2007, 12:25 AM
Thats a great idea, if someone does make a point just ignore him, that way you can still claim you are doing the right thing.

Isn't it ironic that there is a thread titled "Linux Desktop Readiness" and then Linux's user just alienate whoever goes against their beliefs?
No, you're just trolling. No matter what points people give, you just spew more nonsense.

XogGyux
August 26th, 2007, 12:36 AM
No, you're just trolling. No matter what points people give, you just spew more nonsense.

example?:confused:

w4ett
August 26th, 2007, 12:38 AM
really? what kind of sites do you visit? for 2 month i havent catch any undesirable program and i dont have any anti-virus/antispyware.
Why do you always have to mention windows by the way? isent this a linux forum?

this seem that linux is not an operating system but a cult and you are workshiping it.

Let's take the Pepsi challenge....let me SSH into your machine and run AVG Anti-Virus and Spybot Search and Destroy and see......You can do the same to mine (If you can get Root Admin Permissions) I'll even open a port for you..it .won't cost you a dime! I'll do it for free.

w4ett
August 26th, 2007, 12:39 AM
example?:confused: Plenty...Every one of your posts in this thread.

XogGyux
August 26th, 2007, 12:48 AM
Plenty...Every one of your posts in this thread.

like?

XogGyux
August 26th, 2007, 01:09 AM
You didn't choose your avatar for nothing...

isent that the monkey is smarter that a crossseyed pinguin (your avatar)?

w4ett
August 26th, 2007, 01:20 AM
Let's take the Pepsi challenge....let me SSH into your machine and run AVG Anti-Virus and Spybot Search and Destroy and see......You can do the same to mine (If you can get Root Admin Permissions) I'll even open a port for you..it .won't cost you a dime! I'll do it for free.

Well, boys, remember the CoC....Let's keep it respectful here.

But XogGyux, you still haven't responded to my offer.....My IP is : 24-159-74-250 give it a go....You first.

zetetic
August 26th, 2007, 01:33 AM
isent that the monkey is smarter that a crossseyed pinguin (your avatar)?

Perhaps... But I'm not acting like a pinguin, and you are acting like a simian...

For everyone reading this troll, I recommend this article, about How to Prevent or Survive a Monkey Attack:

http://www.wikihow.com/Prevent-or-Survive-a-Monkey-Attack

"Monkeys are attracted things that shine, smell good and make noise, so be aware of what you may be dangling in front of their faces."

XogGyux
August 26th, 2007, 01:37 AM
Well, boys, remember the CoC....Let's keep it respectful here.

But XogGyux, you still haven't responded to my offer.....My IP is : 24-159-74-250 give it a go....You first.

thats all you can come with? that linux is more secure than windows? what about mac os it is more secure also than mac os?:lolflag:

w4ett
August 26th, 2007, 01:53 AM
thats all you can come with? that linux is more secure than windows? what about mac os it is more secure also than mac os?:lolflag:


Originally Posted by XogGyux View Post
really? what kind of sites do you visit? for 2 month i havent catch any undesirable program and i dont have any anti-virus/antispyware.
Why do you always have to mention windows by the way? isent this a linux forum?

It seems that you, my friend, opened THAT door.......I just offered to do an unbiased virus and spyware check on your computer....FOR FREE...Geek Squad will cost you money. THEN I offered for you to do the same so you can check MY system...I'll even check your Beloved MAC for you (at no charge)

You have made a statement that you seem unwilling to substantiate.....I'm just giving you the opportunity to give us the proof. Why is it you are so willing to denigrate others and play devil's advocate, while you are obviously insensitive to your friend's and your own security needs by spreading viruses out of your (self-admitted) unprotected windows computer?

I just want to HELP you!

Coldkill
August 26th, 2007, 02:01 AM
Leave it alone. Close this thread and ignore each other! Please!:(

XogGyux
August 26th, 2007, 02:25 AM
It seems that you, my friend, opened THAT door.......I just offered to do an unbiased virus and spyware check on your computer....FOR FREE...Geek Squad will cost you money. THEN I offered to do the same so you can check MY system...I'll even check your Beloved MAC for you (at no charge)

You have made a statement that you seem unwilling to substantiate.....I'm just giving you the opportunity to give us the proof. Why is it you are so willing to denigrate others and play devil's advocate, while you are obviously insensitive to your friend's and your own security needs by spreading viruses out of your (self-admitted) unprotected windows computer?

I just want to HELP you!

I really appreciate your offer but i know i got no virus, nor spywares. anyways shouldnt we stick with linux instead of summoning windows every 1 min?

prizrak
August 26th, 2007, 07:40 AM
Simple fact, OS X has viruses in the wild, Linux does not....

darrenm
August 26th, 2007, 08:41 AM
Terminal... it is that your idea of user friendly? :confused:

Well.. I'm a user and its friendly to me. It may not be friendly for you. Its certainly power user friendly. Apparently Windows server 2008 will finally have a half decent command line trying to emulate Linux. Dont know if you will be able to SSH into it though.


:confused:
Applications > Accessories > Terminal >
xdriinfo

Does that make it any easier to understand?


Thats a great advice when you buy the components and make the computer yourself, but when you buy the computer already assambled you will never get the "ideal" components that you want, more over ATI dominates at least 50% of graphic card market, so half people will have problem with ati+ubuntu.

Then if you plan on running Linux don't buy a computer with ATi graphics. Or if you already have one then its probably better to sell the ATi graphics and buy Nvidia. Or don't run Ubuntu. You pay your money you take your choice. I had ATi, I wanted to run Ubuntu at its best so I chose to run hardware from manufacturers that are Linux friendly. Simple really. When ATi suddenly realise their market share has plummeted they will maybe have a check.


Yes. he is right, in other words throw away the x1800xt that you bought last week and buy a new nVidia card! O wait, its that really a choice?

Generally if you want to swap hardware you can do things like sell hardware on eBay or similar then buy something that better suits your needs instead. I sold a Broadcom wifi mini-PCI card on eBay and bought an Intel 2200BG for around the same price. If you want to run ATi on Linux you have to either accept poor performance or change your hardware. Its like saying "I want to run Vista with my Pentium2. I'm going to have to throw my computer away and buy new hardware. Is that really a choice!?". But still, its ATi's choice. If you think the situation is bad then go and whinge at them. I tried to, didn't even get a response. My money and the money of people I know wont ever be going near ATi again. Thats they choice they made when decided not to support Linux in any real way. Hopefully it will come back to haunt them.


You really hate ATI dont you? do you heat ATI more than Microsoft? :confused:

Nope I don't hate them. I don't hate Microsoft either. I don't agree with the business direction they have both chosen so I put my support and my money into places and companies that I believe have the right idea. If I shop at ASDA I shouldn't have to give Tescos a £20 subsidy every time should I?


Just tell me one situation in which freagmentation is great!!!!! :lolflag:
Have you ever seen a football trainer to tell the player, lets go boys, lets play fragmented? :confused: i think you meant "diversity" but not fragmentation, have you ever heard the phrase "team work?"

I don't think you understand how it all works. But I'm not sure you're capable of understanding either so I think its a waste of time trying to explain.


Flash doesnt work.

Slightly unsubstantiated comment there! Flash works for me. I believe Flash works for most other people.

ps. I'm now about to put you on my ignore list as you're forcing most other people to do so its not really worth replying to this post.

Rupertronco
August 26th, 2007, 10:01 AM
I'm somewhat disappointed the mods haven't stepped in and rid us of this incompitence.

XogGyux - google "inept"

igoddard
August 26th, 2007, 01:20 PM
This is a misconception that's perpetuated too often on these forums. LTS stands for Long-Term Support, not Long-Term Stability. It means that the release will continue to receive security updates for three years on the desktop and five years on the server (as opposed to non-LTS releases, which receive eighteen months of support).

Definitely, though, if you want stability, do not upgrade to a new release right away. Give it two months to get the major bugs worked out. Now that Feisty has been out for four months, though, it isn't any less stable than Dapper is.

OK, I accept your point about vocabulary.

However our perceptions about stability probably differ. Take the issue which prompted my OP:
Somewhere along the line a bit of functionality dropped out of KDE, the ability to autorun a script. This may have been a bug, but I suspect that it represents a deliberate action on someone's part. In other words someone decided to fix what wasn't broken. If I need that functionality to do something then for me it's a failure of stability.

Even when the *major* bugs have been worked out (and disregarding the minor ones) a new release is likely to introduce more changes of functionality than I experience by simply taking updates to Dapper. Providing what I've got now does more or less what I want any changes which materially affect functionality are more likely to be tinkerings similar to those which gave rise to my OP and from my perception are likely to be regarded as instabilities.

Needless tinkering breaks things. It's as simple as that. And it's not acceptable for everyday use to have something working one day and broken the next. I know this is liable to happen with Windows Updates but that's not a feature that the Linux world should emulate!

If Ubuntu or any other linux distro is to be desktop ready we need to get rid of the mindset that just tinkers or that thinks it's better to have the latest version even if it no longer does what the use wants.

Ian

prizrak
August 26th, 2007, 03:10 PM
OK, I accept your point about vocabulary.

However our perceptions about stability probably differ. Take the issue which prompted my OP:
Somewhere along the line a bit of functionality dropped out of KDE, the ability to autorun a script. This may have been a bug, but I suspect that it represents a deliberate action on someone's part. In other words someone decided to fix what wasn't broken. If I need that functionality to do something then for me it's a failure of stability.

Even when the *major* bugs have been worked out (and disregarding the minor ones) a new release is likely to introduce more changes of functionality than I experience by simply taking updates to Dapper. Providing what I've got now does more or less what I want any changes which materially affect functionality are more likely to be tinkerings similar to those which gave rise to my OP and from my perception are likely to be regarded as instabilities.

Needless tinkering breaks things. It's as simple as that. And it's not acceptable for everyday use to have something working one day and broken the next. I know this is liable to happen with Windows Updates but that's not a feature that the Linux world should emulate!

If Ubuntu or any other linux distro is to be desktop ready we need to get rid of the mindset that just tinkers or that thinks it's better to have the latest version even if it no longer does what the use wants.

Ian

Stability doesn't mean that you have the ability to do something it means that you can count on your computer not to crash. No one is making anyone upgrade to the latest version so I don't see what the problem is.

Each distro makes decisions about functionality, those decisions don't come from nowhere. If you happen to disagree with the decisions made by one particular distro you could always jump ship to another one.

Frak
August 26th, 2007, 04:49 PM
Simple fact, OS X has viruses in the wild, Linux does not....
There are about two or three viruses for Linux, but they do little to nothing because either the viruses have no central database of info to find out about the system, or SELinux has become so much more powerful, those said viruses can't function.

But, again, stay with the repo's if you can. That's what makes Linux very safe. Else, come ask us first, because many of us already know whats going on in development and can tell you if its safe or not to use. (though 99% of the time, its OK to use)

P.S. Golden rule... NEVER LOG IN AS ROOT!!!

EDIT
Also, the said viruses were made as research objects, not real threats.

garba
August 26th, 2007, 06:13 PM
I waited a few moments for my ubuntu install disc to finish burning. Once it was done it was ready for my desktop.

:lolflag::lolflag::lolflag::lolflag::lolflag::lolf lag:

garba
August 26th, 2007, 06:24 PM
One thing that disturbs me about linux is that once you install it in your computer, your computer is not yours anymore, but root's so everytime you want to do something you have to put root's password, your HDDs are not yours either, you cannont create a folder in "/" unless you do ir from the terminal (primitive) and by preceding by "sudo" and putting the password. After all this does not offers so much extra security, think about this, linux does not encrypt any partition, so if you really want to access to the partition and you dont have a password you could simply boot the system with a live cd! so in otherwords that "security" only works to annoy the actual owner of the PC, futhermore, for a Home-Desktop computer it is very probable that only trustworthy people will be abble to access (physically) to the computer, so the password function is only annoying. Something that really bothered me was when I installed Azureus and it told me that it will update itself, so i told it, go ahead, and it downloaded the update package and when it was "updating itself" an error poped up saying that it had no permissions to acces /opt/azureus (i dont remmeber if it was opt or opt or whatever) so it took me more than 15 mins to find information and create a "sudo launcher" so i could open the file and change the permissions "graphically" since i dont know the commands to do it from the terminal (neither i want to know them, we are in the 21 century, commands and terminal where past century stuff, from now on, is graphic, and maybe voice in the future)



if the ubuntu forums had a windows troll bull**** section this would deserve a sticky

prizrak
August 26th, 2007, 09:20 PM
There are about two or three viruses for Linux, but they do little to nothing because either the viruses have no central database of info to find out about the system, or SELinux has become so much more powerful, those said viruses can't function.

But, again, stay with the repo's if you can. That's what makes Linux very safe. Else, come ask us first, because many of us already know whats going on in development and can tell you if its safe or not to use. (though 99% of the time, its OK to use)

P.S. Golden rule... NEVER LOG IN AS ROOT!!!

EDIT
Also, the said viruses were made as research objects, not real threats.

Yep, I stick with the repos for the most part the only 3 things that I install from outside the repos are my acerhk driver, libdvdcss (more out of habbit than necessity at this point I replaced the optical with an extra battery pack), and Nimbus theme (it's just so pretty).

prizrak
August 26th, 2007, 09:22 PM
if the ubuntu forums had a windows troll bull**** section this would deserve a sticky

ROFL "It is not your's it's root's" that deserves an award.

Frak
August 27th, 2007, 02:42 AM
ROFL "It is not your's it's root's" that deserves an award.
+1 ROTFLOL

w4ett
August 27th, 2007, 03:14 AM
Yeah...makes my head spin.LOL This does too:


ABBOTT: Super Duper Computer Store. Can I help you?
COSTELLO: Thanks. I'm setting up an office in my den and I'm thinking about buying a computer.
ABBOTT: Mac?
COSTELLO: No, the name's Lou.
ABBOTT: Your computer?
COSTELLO: I don't own a computer. I want to buy one.
ABBOTT: Mac?
COSTELLO: I told you, my name's Lou.
ABBOTT: What about Windows?
COSTELLO: Why? Will it get stuffy in here?
ABBOTT: Do you want a computer with Windows?
COSTELLO: I don't know. What will I see when I look at the windows?
ABBOTT: Wallpaper.
COSTELLO: Never mind the windows. I need a computer and software.
ABBOTT: Software for Windows?
COSTELLO: No. On the computer! I need something I can use to write proposals, track expenses and run my business. What do you have?
ABBOTT: Office.
COSTELLO: Yeah, for my office. Can you recommend anything?
ABBOTT: I just did.
COSTELLO: You just did what?
ABBOTT: Recommend something.
COSTELLO: You recommended something?
ABBOTT: Yes.
COSTELLO: For my office?
ABBOTT: Yes.
COSTELLO: OK, what did you recommend for my office?
ABBOTT: Office.
COSTELLO: Yes, for my office!
ABBOTT: I recommend Office with Windows.
COSTELLO: I already have an office with windows! OK, let's just say I'm sitting at my computer and I want to type a proposal. What do I need?
ABBOTT: Word.
COSTELLO: What word?
ABBOTT: Word in Office.
COSTELLO: The only word in office is office.
ABBOTT: The Word in Office for Windows.
COSTELLO: Which word in office for windows?
ABBOTT: The Word you get when you click the blue "W".
COSTELLO: I'm going to click your blue "w" if you don't start with some straight answers. What about financial bookkeeping? You have anything I can track my money with?
ABBOT T: Money.
COSTELLO: That's right. What do you have?
ABBOTT: Money.
COSTELLO: I need money to track my money?
ABBOTT: It comes bundled with your computer.
COSTELLO: What's bundled with my computer?
ABBOTT: Money.
COSTELLO: Money comes with my computer?
ABBOTT: Yes. No extra charge.
COSTELLO: I get a bundle of money with my computer? How much?
ABBOTT: One copy.
COSTELLO: Isn't it illegal to copy money?
ABBOTT: Microsoft gave us a license to copy Money.
COSTELLO: They can give you a license to copy money?
ABBOTT: Why not? THEY OWN IT!
(A few days later)


ABBOTT: Super Duper computer store. Can I help you?
COSTELLO: How do I turn my computer off?
ABBOTT: Click on "START"....

Frak
August 27th, 2007, 03:17 AM
:lolflag:

stalker145
August 27th, 2007, 04:10 AM
Yeah...makes my head spin.LOL This does too:


ABBOTT: Super Duper Computer Store. Can I help you?....

OMFG!!!! That is probably the funniest post I've seen since I've been on these forums... Had to add that one to my signature so EVERYONE can enjoy it ;) Thanks for ending my night on a high note ;)

KIAaze
August 28th, 2007, 02:08 PM
Interesting article:
http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3696461

Bathrone
August 28th, 2007, 02:42 PM
Thanks DarrenM and the other people who responded to my post.

The thing is, I love computing. Its my profession, its my hobby. When I said the excitement about Vista is over - what I meant is the fun I had beta testing it, and before beta with the CTPs and the like. I like new software and being part of the devtest process.

So with what was said here in reponse to my thoughts on Ubuntu I decided to give it another go. Especially when I found out 7.10 has an inbuilt refresh and resolution contol panel which would fix one of my major problems I ran into last time I tried Ubuntu and Kubuntu.

So with alpha 5 in hand I loaded, partitioned and installed. All good. I adjusted my screen resolution, noticing only minor problems like the refresh drop down list was not sorted in order correctly. I set my desired 1280x1029@100hz (21 Sony CRT) and reboot. But then on reboot all I get is a garbled screen after the Ubuntu loading graphic with no apparent way to this relatively new Linux person on what to do next. I have decades of experience and I knew I needed to instruct grub to only boot command line instead of GUI but I dont know what to do from there so I gave up.

Now some days later I just feel that I *want* to share the love you all have obviously for FOSS and this distribution. I want ticker and help the community. I just seem to get so stuck at every turn. Yes I know its Alpha software, but I cant handle the conf edits even though I did a days worth of research on horizontal and vertical refresh rates and how to add the right lines to the conf on 7.04 it still didnt work. So I think 7.10 is the only real option for me.

salsafyren
August 28th, 2007, 02:46 PM
Now some days later I just feel that I *want* to share the love you all have obviously for FOSS and this distribution. I want ticker and help the community. I just seem to get so stuck at every turn. Yes I know its Alpha software, but I cant handle the conf edits even though I did a days worth of research on horizontal and vertical refresh rates and how to add the right lines to the conf on 7.04 it still didnt work. So I think 7.10 is the only real option for me.

Have you tried opensuse?

They have better X configuration tools than Ubuntu.

I also had to fight with xorg conf to get decent refresh rates on Ubuntu 7.04.

AcworthJack
August 28th, 2007, 06:59 PM
I'll probably get banned from the forums for this post - but here goes:

Linux is ready for the desktop like...
men are ready to talk about their feelings

raul_
August 28th, 2007, 08:28 PM
I'll probably get banned from the forums for this post - but here goes:

Linux is ready for the desktop like...
men are ready to talk about their feelings

What feelings?

w4ett
August 28th, 2007, 08:53 PM
What feelings?

ROFLMAO

prizrak
August 29th, 2007, 12:40 AM
I'll probably get banned from the forums for this post - but here goes:

Linux is ready for the desktop like...
men are ready to talk about their feelings

ROFL. While I disagree with Ubuntu not being ready it's a hilarious post :)

Wolki
August 29th, 2007, 01:31 AM
What feelings?

I think he means stuff like how much you like beer or what you feel is important in a car. And I know people who can talk about that for a long time, so linux must be quite ready for the desktop. ;)

[meta] what's going on with this thread? so little whining and so much fun lately :)

rabi.fettig
August 29th, 2007, 01:46 PM
Last I checked, guys have two feelings:

1) hunger
2) that thing where you have to go to the bathroom

As far as I know, either is an acceptable topic for conversation.

BDNiner
August 29th, 2007, 05:36 PM
People who build custom computers all know that windows can be just as problematic as linux to install. Hunting down drivers for a modem where the company has been bought by another company which in turn was bought by another company can be a pain. Or having windows decide that the hardware you install comes from another company all together and it goes ahead and automatically installs the wrong drivers.

But printers seem to be the most problematic devices I have had to work with in windows. The HP LJ 4000 IMO is the best printer ever made, I wish HP didn't discontinue it. Other printers in the same series suck compared to the durability and ease of maintenance for that printer. In fact today at work, I have a customer that has an HP LJ1300, the printer magically stops working, so i have to change the port from USB DOT_4 to LTP1 and it will start printing again. Then after about a month it will stop printing and i have to change it back to DOT_4 and it will magically start printing again. This is a USB printer and i have not routed DOT_4 to LPT1 on that computer. Can somone explain this to me?

If ubuntu and linux as a whole can get driver installation down to put a couple mouse clicks then i think that will go a long way, i like the restricted drivers option in ubuntu, more hardware needs to be added to that method.

mostwanted
August 29th, 2007, 09:46 PM
People who build custom computers all know that windows can be just as problematic as linux to install. Hunting down drivers for a modem where the company has been bought by another company which in turn was bought by another company can be a pain. Or having windows decide that the hardware you install comes from another company all together and it goes ahead and automatically installs the wrong drivers.

But printers seem to be the most problematic devices I have had to work with in windows. The HP LJ 4000 IMO is the best printer ever made, I wish HP didn't discontinue it. Other printers in the same series suck compared to the durability and ease of maintenance for that printer. In fact today at work, I have a customer that has an HP LJ1300, the printer magically stops working, so i have to change the port from USB DOT_4 to LTP1 and it will start printing again. Then after about a month it will stop printing and i have to change it back to DOT_4 and it will magically start printing again. This is a USB printer and i have not routed DOT_4 to LPT1 on that computer. Can somone explain this to me?

If ubuntu and linux as a whole can get driver installation down to put a couple mouse clicks then i think that will go a long way, i like the restricted drivers option in ubuntu, more hardware needs to be added to that method.

Why did you feel a need to dig up this topic from its grave? It's ancient. You probably disturbed some mummified versions of the previous posters in the process. I'd get the hell out if I were you!

aysiu
August 29th, 2007, 10:10 PM
Why did you feel a need to dig up this topic from its grave? It's ancient. You probably disturbed some mummified versions of the previous posters in the process. I'd get the hell out if I were you!
I've merged it with the megathread. That'll show the mummied posts.

karellen
August 29th, 2007, 11:22 PM
for those who have a lot of patience...
http://limulus.wordpress.com/2007/08/13/2010-the-year-of-the-linux-desktop/

ticopelp
August 29th, 2007, 11:27 PM
Isn't it about time we stopped setting arbitrary dates for the arrival of "the Linux desktop?" Maybe it's just me, but it never really seems to help the cause much.

karellen
August 29th, 2007, 11:33 PM
Isn't it about time we stopped setting arbitrary dates for the arrival of "the Linux desktop?" Maybe it's just me, but it never really seems to help the cause much.

it's not my article nor my opinions

PatrickMay16
August 29th, 2007, 11:34 PM
Yes! This is finally it! 2067 is the year of the linux desktop!!!!!!

init1
August 29th, 2007, 11:36 PM
The Gnome desktop is good enough for my needs.

karellen
August 29th, 2007, 11:38 PM
Yes! This is finally it! 2067 is the year of the linux desktop!!!!!!

:lolflag:

jrusso2
August 29th, 2007, 11:40 PM
While I have been using Linux as my desktop for 11 years, I have given up the idea that Linux will ever be the desktop for regular users.

There is just too many forces acting against it. The forces of the FSF and the idea that proprietary software is immoral will limits its use with those that need to get work done or enjoy their hardware, music and dvd's.

ticopelp
August 30th, 2007, 12:26 AM
it's not my article nor my opinions

I didn't say it was. It was a rhetorical question. :popcorn:

ryno519
August 30th, 2007, 12:30 AM
Yes! This is finally it! 2067 is the year of the linux desktop!!!!!!

For those keeping track, that's 4 years after the warp drive. ;)

ticopelp
August 30th, 2007, 12:36 AM
For those keeping track, that's 4 years after the warp drive. ;)

Ah, so the first Enterprise will run Linux... it's all coming together!

K.Mandla
August 30th, 2007, 12:40 AM
Well, waitaminute. I thought Linux machines were preconfigured to calculate the year of the Linux desktop with this command:


ddate

Billy_McBong
August 30th, 2007, 12:44 AM
While I have been using Linux as my desktop for 11 years, I have given up the idea that Linux will ever be the desktop for regular users.

11 years? wow:shock:

and i think theres a chance for the "Linux Desktop" if MS keeps up its DRM and such

saj0577
August 30th, 2007, 12:48 AM
Just give it til the next new windows platform where the everyday person/household has to pay £2000 to buy the upgrades so they can run it which will be exactly the same as vista or should i say Xp i dont know their both so similar with a different face.

Saj

saj0577
August 30th, 2007, 12:51 AM
While I have been using Linux as my desktop for 11 years, I have given up the idea that Linux will ever be the desktop for regular users.


Beats my 11 months i only used a windows machine when forced to (even at college i use a live cd and if their no cd drive ill do work by hand.


Saj

sumguy231
August 30th, 2007, 12:54 AM
Ah, so the first Enterprise will run Linux... it's all coming together!

Duh. They don't call it Red Hat Enterprise Linux for nothing. *rimshot*

Dr Small
August 30th, 2007, 01:00 AM
Well, waitaminute. I thought Linux machines were preconfigured to calculate the year of the Linux desktop with this command:


ddate

drsmall@drsmall:~$ ddate
Today is Sweetmorn, the 22nd day of Bureaucracy in the YOLD 3173

LOL

maniacmusician
August 30th, 2007, 01:30 AM
i think linux is not good for kids!its perfect for the computer experts!!!
http://s1.metaldamage.gr/c.php?uid=16740
depends. Kids obviously aren't going to set it up themselves, but if I give a kid that hasn't had much computer exposure a fully set up install of Windows and one of a Linux distro, they often find the Linux machine to be better.

sumguy231
August 30th, 2007, 02:57 AM
My 9-year-old little brother runs Xubuntu on his computer, though I wasn't dumb enough to make him an admin. ;)

So far the only problems he's had with the system were caused by me. :)

kopinux
August 30th, 2007, 03:30 AM
desktop only? you mean the world.

Dr. C
August 30th, 2007, 04:55 AM
I actually doubt there will ever be a " year of the Linux desktop", at the same time GNU / Linux will become the dominant OS on the desktop. It will happen gradually over time.

Now can anyone tell me. When exactly was the year of the Windows desktop?

jrusso2
August 30th, 2007, 07:18 AM
I actually doubt there will ever be a " year of the Linux desktop", at the same time GNU / Linux will become the dominant OS on the desktop. It will happen gradually over time.

Now can anyone tell me. When exactly was the year of the Windows desktop?

I would say 1995 and Windows 95 was when it really went mainstream.

mech7
August 30th, 2007, 07:51 AM
it won't happen not for a very long time.. not unless many distro's will make radical changes and can agree about things :)

DjBones
August 30th, 2007, 08:10 AM
I agree with FineE..
if linux slowly grows and corrodes microsofts marketshare, will it ever really have a year when it lept from 3% to 7%.. 10% to 15%.. etc? that defines it as the year of the linux desktop? its kind of an arbitrary value.
I guess you could define it as when its supoorted by software companies and hardware manufacturers.. but were oftly close to that at a very low market share right now
((although i wouldn't call 6% of the world desktops and a rediculous amount of servers a paltry amount haha))

kanem
August 30th, 2007, 10:53 AM
I agree with DjBones..
Another dumb thing with the YOTD is that the definition keeps changing. Now there has to be x% of desktops before it's the YOTD? Years ago it was defined as when it's ready for normal people to use. Then it was defined as when you can buy a computer with Linux on it. Now some people say it's when more people use Linux then MS.

The year of desktop Linux already happened. We missed it. Game over. Normal people use this thing. Secretaries, teachers and civil servants all over the world use desktop Linux. The numbers mean nothing, otherwise, Apple still hasn't had it's 'year of the desktop' either.

Andrewie
August 30th, 2007, 01:36 PM
just lock this stupid thread, I thought we we're over this :lolflag:

aysiu
August 30th, 2007, 02:29 PM
just lock this stupid thread, I thought we we're over this :lolflag:
No, but I've merged it.

xpod
August 30th, 2007, 04:23 PM
i think linux is not good for kids!its perfect for the computer experts!!!

These kinds of comments are the ones i find the most outrageous.

I have 5 kids myself,4 of whom would 100% disagree with this comment.
My younger ones dont need to know how to install & configure their pc`s just yet but my older two no longer need dad to set their pc`s up.

Apart from Windows at school this whole family were new to computers last year and nobody can tell us that Linux(ubuntu) is only for experts.

Complete nonsense!:rolleyes:

kanem
August 31st, 2007, 12:12 AM
No, but I've merged it.
Awsome! I always wanted to be a part of the Legendary Linux Desktop Readiness Thread! My life as an Ubuntu user is now complete.

loverOfWindows
August 31st, 2007, 12:13 AM
Ok im new to linux, never really used it a whole lot, but right off the bat i cant even connect to the internet (tried three different ethernet cards) with ubuntu LAMP Server. I am using a Dell 390, i tried the broadcom 57xx mobo garbage, didnt work; tried an intel ethernet PCI card, Nothing; 3com ethernet PCI card, NOTHING. copied over the .tar.gz (or whatever the goofy extension is) drivers from broadcom, now its saying i have to compile and build the F'ing thing??!! LAF, ubuntu doesnt even come with "make" function. Its 2007, quickly approaching 2008, all OS should have plug n play talk to the F'ing internet no matter what..ESPECIALLY SERVER ADDITIONS OMG OMG OMG OGM OMG OMG OMG OMG...period. So until these linux systems have this feature taken care of, Windows will always be superior to Linux...sorry guys ;)
:guitar:

happysmileman
August 31st, 2007, 12:18 AM
Its 2007, quickly approaching 2008, all OS should have plug n play talk to the F'ing internet no matter what..ESPECIALLY SERVER ADDITIONS OMG OMG OMG OGM OMG OMG OMG OMG...period.

My Kubuntu had plug and play internet OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG.

The ironic thing is that people would easily have told you what you needed to do if you hadn't been so annoying, or at least didn't choose a name you knew would get you flamed OMG ROFL LOL.

You have fun with Windows, I'll have fun with Linux, goodbye.

SonicSteve
August 31st, 2007, 12:20 AM
Sounds like you had a bad experience.
From all my tests Ubuntu works very well with any ethernet card I've ever tested, especially 3com. I've tried quite a few systems and they all have worked even very new asus boards with intel core 2 duos. I have an asus board and the onboard nic works perfectly. It connects very nicely to my DHCP enabled router picks up and IP address and is on the internet lickety split without any configuration at all. I don't know much about lamp server but perhaps if your new to linux you may want to dumb it down a bit and just stick to the regular desktop install first.
I came from a windows background, infact I still use it as the system admin at a school. However from what I've seen both have their strengths and weaknesses.

loverOfWindows
August 31st, 2007, 12:22 AM
Gratz on the Kubuntu internet access, now try Ubuntu LAMP server, then display ur superior intellect with all of us by telling me how :)

Lord Illidan
August 31st, 2007, 12:26 AM
Are you using DHCP or static IP?

p_quarles
August 31st, 2007, 12:27 AM
I used to run an Ubuntu LAMP machine, and it worked very well. I later switched to a Debian net-install server because I wanted the absolute minimum number of packages.

Tell us what you're trying to do, lose the attitude, and people here will help you.

loverOfWindows
August 31st, 2007, 12:29 AM
Sounds like you had a bad experience.
From all my tests Ubuntu works very well with any ethernet card I've ever tested, especially 3com. I've tried quite a few systems and they all have worked even very new asus boards with intel core 2 duos. I have an asus board and the onboard nic works perfectly. It connects very nicely to my DHCP enabled router picks up and IP address and is on the internet lickety split without any configuration at all. I don't know much about lamp server but perhaps if your new to linux you may want to dumb it down a bit and just stick to the regular desktop install first.
I came from a windows background, infact I still use it as the system admin at a school. However from what I've seen both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks steve, id love to use Kubuntu or any desktop version of linux but i am trying to set up a wiki site for work and was told to use ubuntu server by experienced fanatic users. But when i pointed this issue out with the ethernet card to the fanatics and watched them fumble around for 2 hours trying to talk to the internet i just had to let off some steam. Its not hardware related because the PCI slot and Cards themselves work on the windows OS, could be a Dell thing.

Hopefully someone will see this and know exactly what i did wrong or didnt do and point me in the right direction.

cybrid
August 31st, 2007, 12:32 AM
As of today, the only thing I think GNU/Linux is missing, is better drivers (with better I mean more stable and with full device support) and Game companies doing decent native ( not exclusively ) games for Linux.

Oh and I almost forget it. Decent DVD Playback with GStreamer :rolleyes:

Lord Illidan
August 31st, 2007, 12:32 AM
As I said, give us more info and we'll try to help. Abuse doesn't work both ways.
Also, since it is your first time using Ubuntu, you could always try installing the desktop edition, to get used to the new OS. You can still run your server that way.

happysmileman
August 31st, 2007, 12:32 AM
Gratz on the Kubuntu internet access, now try Ubuntu LAMP server, then display ur superior intellect with all of us by telling me how :)

Well as I said it's plug and play, and I never said I had superior intellect, but I can ask a question without basically insulting the people I'm trying to get help from, if you're lucky someone will help you (I wouldn't know how)

My advice is either wait for response here (there are people who will put up with people like you trolling) or sign up at a different forum, ask the question in a less annoying/insulting way

loverOfWindows
August 31st, 2007, 12:36 AM
I used to run an Ubuntu LAMP machine, and it worked very well. I later switched to a Debian net-install server because I wanted the absolute minimum number of packages.

Tell us what you're trying to do, lose the attitude, and people here will help you.

Attitude/name = attention getter

Need to set up MediaWiki. First time user of linux. I've got C++,C,Matlab,LabVIEW,Shell comand line, and VB programing experience (not great at any, but i can do em), so im not affraid to run command line operations. I jsut expected Ubuntu Server Edition to be able to comunicate with 90% ethernet cards out ther, plug n play, no arsin around with drivers. sudo vi /etc/network/interface brings up a blank blah blah blah...loop, no indicator of network adpater. Just seem that it shouldnt be this difficult, Windows XP works, Ubuntu Server doesnt, same cards and everything.

p_quarles
August 31st, 2007, 12:38 AM
I agree with Lord Illidan on this. For a new user, it's going to be a lot easier to set this stuff up with a full GUI. Install the desktop version, and then you can add the webhosting components (Apache, MySQL, PHP/Perl, and the wiki software) using the Synaptic package manager (located in the "System" menu under "Administration").

It's hard to say why the ethernet cards didn't work, without knowing what the "fanatics" were actually trying. If you know anything about what they did, let us know.

Lord Illidan
August 31st, 2007, 12:44 AM
Just wipe the server installation and install the desktop edition instead. Also, be a bit patient. The problem is most likely a trivial one or a user error. Linux is quite compatible with a wide range of ethernet cards, and you tried 3. Therefore, either you didn't configure something correctly - and being a server edition, you are expected to know more about configuring the OS than an average desktop user, or else there's a problem somewhere else.

And for the record, attention grabbing is more likely to get you suspended than anything else.

p_quarles
August 31st, 2007, 12:46 AM
I've got C++,C,Matlab,LabVIEW,Shell comand line, and VB programing experience (not great at any, but i can do em), so im not affraid to run command line operations. I jsut expected Ubuntu Server Edition to be able to comunicate with 90% ethernet cards out ther, plug n play, no arsin around with drivers. sudo vi /etc/network/interface brings up a blank blah blah blah...loop, no indicator of network adpater. Just seem that it shouldnt be this difficult, Windows XP works, Ubuntu Server doesnt, same cards and everything.
I actually can't recall anyone else having this particular problem . . . Linux sometimes hiccups over integrated NICs, but PCI ethernet cards are usually no fuss.

One of the first things I'd look at is the quality of the installation CD. Did you do all of the following?:
1) Check the MD5sum against the downloaded .ISO file
2) Burn the .ISO to a CD at a low (~4x) rate.
3) Run the integrity self-testing application on the CD

If not, it's possible you have a corrupted disk.

The fact that Vi told you that file was empty could be a couple things: 1) You typed it exactly as you typed it here, and created a new file with that name. The file is normally /etc/network/interfaces; or 2) There's something really screwed up about this installation.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that even if the OS didn't find the NIC, it would still create a loopback interface in the /etc/network/interfaces file.

aysiu
August 31st, 2007, 12:57 AM
Ok im new to linux, never really used it a whole lot, but right off the bat i cant even connect to the internet (tried three different ethernet cards) with ubuntu LAMP Server. I am using a Dell 390, i tried the broadcom 57xx mobo garbage, didnt work; tried an intel ethernet PCI card, Nothing; 3com ethernet PCI card, NOTHING. copied over the .tar.gz (or whatever the goofy extension is) drivers from broadcom, now its saying i have to compile and build the F'ing thing??!! LAF, ubuntu doesnt even come with "make" function. Its 2007, quickly approaching 2008, all OS should have plug n play talk to the F'ing internet no matter what..ESPECIALLY SERVER ADDITIONS OMG OMG OMG OGM OMG OMG OMG OMG...period. So until these linux systems have this feature taken care of, Windows will always be superior to Linux...sorry guys ;)
:guitar: If you want help, ask for it.

If you just want to complain about Linux's supposed shortcomings, this thread I merged yours with is the place to do that.

loverOfWindows
August 31st, 2007, 01:03 AM
Just wipe the server installation and install the desktop edition instead. Also, be a bit patient. The problem is most likely a trivial one or a user error. Linux is quite compatible with a wide range of ethernet cards, and you tried 3. Therefore, either you didn't configure something correctly - and being a server edition, you are expected to know more about configuring the OS than an average desktop user, or else there's a problem somewhere else.

And for the record, attention grabbing is more likely to get you suspended than anything else.

Ok going to install the desktop version and start from there.

Attention grabbing suspension: what is this, grade school? a little ranting about linux vs windows shouldnt ruffle anyones feathers. Some clever combacks mixed in with genuine help would be great. Im a potential convert after all :) Ill certaintly take back my first post and apologize if this ever works and everyone can drop a deuce on me, bottom line is ill get what i want, and the whole community will benifit since im sure im not the only noob tyring to use Ubuntu server on a Dell precision 390 machine.

UI-Freak
August 31st, 2007, 01:55 AM
Check out this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=84572

Apparently you guys represent mostly young males, computer enthusiasts. Males males males. How can you discuss this without inputs from the rest of the world, a world that differs so much from you and your needs and you love for computers?

This is like listening to the core of a group of communists in the 1930's, waiting for people to realize that they have to make a revolution. The revolution that never came. Your revolution will not come either if you don't adapt to the demands from the real world. You can't tell people what they want and need.

When people realize that they CANNOT install all the software for mobile units, cameras, printers, any type of hardware, yes ALL the wonderfull software made for Windows... THE GAMES... they wonder what you love so much about Linux. You love your hobby. You probably like the community here where males (!!) that have so much in common gather.

Without the participation of people unlike yourself and women especially in this debate then it is next to pointless.

aysiu
August 31st, 2007, 02:17 AM
Some clever combacks mixed in with genuine help would be great. I'm all about pragmatism here.

If you want help, start a support thread kindly asking for help.

If you want to help improve Ubuntu, do something productive (donate money, file bug reports, write documentation, help new users, contribute code, create marketing materials, etc.)

And, of course, if you want to whine and get in useless debates for pages and pages... you know what to do and where to do it.

tgm4883
August 31st, 2007, 03:19 AM
Attitude/name = attention getter

While that is true, you forget one thing. Some people (like myselft) will refuse to help you because you are acting like an ***.


I'm all about pragmatism here.

If you want help, start a support thread kindly asking for help.

If you want to help improve Ubuntu, do something productive (donate money, file bug reports, write documentation, help new users, contribute code, create marketing materials, etc.)

And, of course, if you want to whine and get in useless debates for pages and pages... you know what to do and where to do it.

Agreed. If someone has a problem, make a support request in the forum. If you want help be nice about it. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

p_quarles
August 31st, 2007, 03:28 AM
If you want help be nice about it. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Sure, but do any of us really want flies? :)

tgm4883
August 31st, 2007, 06:13 AM
Sure, but do any of us really want flies? :)

Yep. Last time I checked, if I have caught the flies, then they aren't flying around bugging me :)

Lord Illidan
August 31st, 2007, 08:57 AM
Attention grabbing suspension: what is this, grade school? a little ranting about linux vs windows shouldnt ruffle anyones feathers. Some clever combacks mixed in with genuine help would be great. Im a potential convert after all :smile: Ill certaintly take back my first post and apologize if this ever works and everyone can drop a deuce on me, bottom line is ill get what i want, and the whole community will benifit since im sure im not the only noob tyring to use Ubuntu server on a Dell precision 390 machine.

Believe me, you have no idea what an arrogant *** I made you out for with your first post.

salsafyren
August 31st, 2007, 09:05 AM
Check out this thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=84572

Apparently you guys represent mostly young males, computer enthusiasts. Males males males. How can you discuss this without inputs from the rest of the world, a world that differs so much from you and your needs and you love for computers?

This is like listening to the core of a group of communists in the 1930's, waiting for people to realize that they have to make a revolution. The revolution that never came. Your revolution will not come either if you don't adapt to the demands from the real world. You can't tell people what they want and need.

When people realize that they CANNOT install all the software for mobile units, cameras, printers, any type of hardware, yes ALL the wonderfull software made for Windows... THE GAMES... they wonder what you love so much about Linux. You love your hobby. You probably like the community here where males (!!) that have so much in common gather.

Without the participation of people unlike yourself and women especially in this debate then it is next to pointless.

Bah!

Surely the Linux desktop still needs a lot of work, but the Windows desktop does as well.

I like the Linux desktop because I don't get viruses, spyware and adware.

The software that exists is totally free and I can shape the development through my input as well.

So maybe the Linux desktop cannot be used for everything you mention, but it is working for me, so no need to paint such a negative picture.

Also, can you run modern software on a 256 MB laptop in Windows land? Maybe with XP, but what will you do when XP expires? You are forced to upgrade while the Linux desktop just is chugging along.

Cameras are working fine. My household has four cameras. All of them are working fine. Even RAW processing is top notch.

If you expect that everything works just like in Windows you are sorely mistaken. You don't expect MacOSX to work like Windows, so why should yo expect Linux to be Windows?

xpod
August 31st, 2007, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by UI-Freak View Post
Check out this thread:

Without the participation of people unlike yourself and women especially in this debate then it is next to pointless.

erm.....plenty women over here you could mabey discuss it with:)
http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=76

I`ve got a few young women here at home who would discuss it with you too but their far too busy messing around on their own pc`s apparently...

I`ve asked them though and they all says...."Viva la *buntu"

bsmonks
August 31st, 2007, 08:44 PM
For the last week I've been trying to install a single program. That's it, just one. Not an entire office suite or high-end graphics package. Just simple, little Disc-O-Matic 0.3. And you know what? I don't even know if it would have done what I was looking for. All I wanted to do was burn data to a bunch of CDs using multiple CD drives at the same time (and don't reply saying this or that program would do it. I'm DONE with linux.). But I have no earthly idea what this program does because linux and discomatic fought me tooth-and-nail all week long keeping me from installation. One step forward and two steps back. It was frustrating. It made me angry. And nearly made me cuss.

I tried asking for help in this forum (here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=169401) and here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=162925) ). But I soon learned that help from people so entrenched in this kind of software are by nature user-unfriendly themselves. They honestly tried to help me. rsambuca, splintercellguy and schorsch did the best they could. Thank you. Really.

But the real "bad guys" are those that make this operating system and write software for it. In their quest to get out from under the world-wide domination of Microsoft, they make it impossible for those of us with the same desire to follow.

Why should it take me a week to try and figure out how to install a single program? It shouldn't. The only help the author gave was a text file included in the package that basically said type ./configure, type make and type make install. How am I supposed to interpret the gobbeldy-gook that gets regurgitated in the terminal window? The author's help file was no help at all.

You people should police each other and make some basic requirements for your programs. Simple error messages would be a great place to start. You know, the configure process halts and says, "ERROR: Please install "libglib2.0-dev" and "libgtk2.0-dev" through your package manager." But no. The terminal window displays

checking for gtk+-2.0 >= 2.2 glib-2.0 >= 2.2... Package gtk+-2.0 was not found in the pkg-config search path. Perhaps you should add the directory containing `gtk+-2.0.pc' to the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable No package 'gtk+-2.0' found
configure: error: Library requirements (gtk+-2.0 >= 2.2 glib-2.0 >= 2.2) not met; consider adjusting the PKG_CONFIG_PATH environment variable if your libraries are in a nonstandard prefix so pkg-config can find them.
I look in synaptic, and lo! and behold, I have gtk+ 2.0 AND glib 2.0 already installed. So what's the problem? The problem is you people write software that returns error messages that have nothing to do with the solution. I re-installed those two packages 3 separate times. Still getting the same message after each installation. It wasn't until I did a search on this forum that I found I needed to install the -dev packages. HOW IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT'S HOLY AM I SUPPOSED TO KNOW I NEED TO INSTALL A BLOODY -DEV PACKAGE?!? Is it so hard, really, to include error/info messages in the installation process!? Even in the days of MSDOS there were error messages in all the command line installations. Even if the terminal window just displays an alpha-numeric code and I have to look that up in a text file. That would be SO much better than what I just subjected myself to.

And I never did get it installed. I spent a bloody week trying to install a program that wasn't even a 100K download. I feel stupider for my forray into linux. (and, yes, i mean 'stupider.' that's how stupid i feel after linux!)

I guess I should have looked closely at these forums before I decided to download and try this operating system. To have these forums filled with nearly 500,000 individual threads and over 2.7 million posts of people asking for help (a lot of them over and over; and about the same things) says a lot about the inherent fallicies of this OS, its software and the writers.

Always remember: It's free - but you get what you pay for.

And to quote myself from one of the threads mentioned above:

And linux users wonder why they're always getting bashed and why nobody accepts the OS as legitimate.

God, I'm just tired...

I will now wipe my hard drive (for the 5th time since I started this ordeal), install Microsoft Windows and try to regain some of the intelligence that I lost. Even the shareware programs for Microsoft Windows come with HELP files and installation instructions.

<edit>
Please don't post any more "Linux/Ubuntu is all that. You should have used the repos. Windows is full of problems." posts. In spite of diatribe's post below, and because of posts like razorednight's, I am sticking around and trying Kubuntu. Please encourage others to stick it out with Ubuntu. Don't berate them in posts here just because they can't get something done. They may not understand all of what they need to do.
</edit>

diatribe
August 31st, 2007, 08:50 PM
it could also say a lot about people who try to do something they dont know how to do, then complain because they can't do it. if you don't have the willingness to learn, or the forethought to read about something ebfore installing yet, then I have no sympathy for you when you try to use it. linux is not windows, there are differences between the two. just because you cant understand the differences does not mean there is a problem with the os, there is a problem with you

Steveway
August 31st, 2007, 08:54 PM
So how do you compile programs on Windows from source? You don't? You just use what is precompiled?
Well you can do the same on Ubuntu. Just stick to Synaptic and .deb files.
If you want to install an unsupported program then go ahead, everything is there for you to compile it but don't expect it to be easy.
If that is too complicated then don't use unsupported programs and stick to what you got, like in Windows.
You pay for the help you got in Windows and even for those in Sharewareprogs, you don't pay us for our help. Linuxprograms are written by users for users and documentation like your "Help" files are also made by users.
Bye, nobody is gonna miss you.

bsmonks
August 31st, 2007, 08:56 PM
I SPENT A WEEK TRYING TO INSTALL THIS! I googled! I posted! I read forum entry after forum entry! DON'T tell me I wasn't willing to learn!

Your post is exactly what I expected. "If you couldn't do it, it's obviously your fault, not the software." Congratulations, diatribe, you're a linux user. (and that's not meant to be a compliment)

rsambuca
August 31st, 2007, 08:56 PM
Sounds like you are definitely frustrated. Don't worry, though. Linux isn't for everyone. I think one of the problems with the program you were trying to install is that it hasn't been updated since 2003, which is light years in the linux world. Some of the library locations may have changed since then.

Try and remember too that the guy that wrote the program is just a guy doing it in his spare time. He didn't get paid for doing it. Linux can certainly be frustrating if you start trying to use programs that aren't precompiled and in the repositories. Such is life.

jviscosi
August 31st, 2007, 08:58 PM
For the last week I've been trying to install a single program. That's it, just one. Not an entire office suite or high-end graphics package. Just simple, little Disc-O-Matic 0.3.

The best solution you could find for your needs was a program that hasn't been updated since 2003? What Windows program are you planning to use instead?

aysiu
August 31st, 2007, 09:03 PM
This title makes no sense.

A better title would be, "Why does the maker of disc-o-matic make the program difficult to install?"

I've seen literally thousands of support threads over the past two years on these forums. Never (until now) have I seen A) anyone who want to burn multiple CDs at once of MP3s, each CD picking up where the last one left off or B) mention of a program called disc-o-matic or a desire to install said program.

So your situation is unfortunate but atypical. If you had said from the outset, "I have very peculiar needs, and I have to be able to install any program I find on the web at whim," then anyone would have told you from the outset, "Linux may not be right for you."

But for the vast majority of computer users, disc-o-matic is not a necessity. The repositories' software covers the needs of most users. There are shortcomings to Linux, certainly. But please don't pretend that Linux as a whole is "unfriendly" because you have a problem installing one obscure program.

motang
August 31st, 2007, 09:06 PM
That program seems to be old and I am more than sure there other programs that will do the same as Disc-O-Matic. Matter of fact it might even be found in the Add or Remove or from Synaptic.

But Linux isn't for everyone especially if they are well used to using Windows for years, but that can go to someone who has been using Mac OS X or Linux for years they are used certain ways things work and they really don't like to learn new OS to get some stuff done. Well ether way sorry for your problem but from you error it seems as if you have a newer version of the library that won't work with the old one. Prime example of a program that needs to be update but since it's not commercial program that won't likely happen.

mlentink
August 31st, 2007, 09:08 PM
Tell be bsmonks, why did you go through all this trouble?
Me, personally, I use computers to live, i don't live for computers. If I can;t get something to work that I need to make a living within a day or so, Iĺl drop it and look for something that does work. I simply can;t afford the trouble. Except when it's hobby, obviously.

So tell me, why did you go through all this trouble.

razorednight
August 31st, 2007, 09:09 PM
Aww, how can you say Linux is unfriendly? You must have seen the picture of the penguin, Tux, that's used to represent Linux... how can you say that lil fella's unfriendly? :)

Seriously though, Linux isn't unfriendly. It's just different to what you're used to using. I'm assuming you've come from Windows. And Linux isn't Windows. It is based on UNIX (an OS that's way older than Windows!), and it does stuff the UNIX way... the Linux way now... not the Windows way.

Downloading apps is, 9 times out of 10, easy-peasy. You go into Synaptic, do a search, click on the packages that you want, hit Apply, and go grab a Coke while the system sorts it out for you. With Synaptic, you don't get the dependency hell, cos Synaptic grabs what you'll need automagically.

Unfortunately, sometimes you want something that you can't find in the repositories. So you download a tarball or something and have to mess with make install and ./configure and stuff. But, quite often, you don't really need to do that. There are a lot of repos out there, a lot more than the default ones. And there's a wealth of software, all packaged up in .debs, waiting for Synaptic to grab em.

It is frustrating when the app you want just does not seem to be available as a .deb, and the configure or install scripts are all wrong. I grabbed a game off http://www.tucows.com/Linux last week, and the install.sh file had an error in it that I don't know how to fix. I got mad, and muttered vile things about the developers who make a game then can't even write a crappy little install script so it'll run right. But then I got over it, and found something else instead.

You're mad at Ubuntu and Linux right now, you're gonna wipe it off your hard drive and go back to XP, right? That's a shame. What would be an idea, is if you did a dual-install, so you have XP and Ubuntu both on your hard drive. So you can get back to Windows - to what you know - and just do stuff. But Ubuntu will be there too, waiting for when you get over being mad at lil Tux. Then maybe you could log in again and see if you can get it to do something else for you?

Ubuntu ain't right for everyone. If it's just too damn stupid and weird for you, then yeah, maybe you should bin it. But wouldn't you like to know that you tried your damndest before you kicked it out?

Take care!

ripdog
August 31st, 2007, 09:15 PM
Unfortunately, I had the exact same problem, with trying to compile a GTK theme. Yes, a theme. I posted a thread, and all i got were a few replies that simply told me to install -dev packages, which were already there.
Some of the library locations may have changed since then. So, who the freak is changing the library locations? Was there any reason to move them? Or was it just a joke, a prank, to keep newbies off Linux? All efforts to make Linux user friendly have been pretty much cheap hacks. To get your monitors full resolution, to get proper performance from your video card, to get sound working, to get wireless working, to do ANYTHING worth doing on Linux you have to edit configuration files, compile software and use the command line. Linux was not designed for users. It was designed for the people who designed it. I run OS X, and i never will change to Linux. It needs a total redesign to work properly, designed for the ground up for everyone.


Quite evidently, this is never going to happen, so in my view, Linux will never be more then an experiment, or a "Learning experience". Just an excuse to try something new. Ive learned lots about Linux in my time using it, and it has been fun occasionally, but it still has no real value for an OS X user.

(I must say, when you get it working, Compiz Fusion is damn fun :P)

aysiu
August 31st, 2007, 09:18 PM
To get your monitors full resolution, to get proper performance from your video card, to get sound working, to get wireless working, to do ANYTHING worth doing on Linux you have to edit configuration files, compile software and use the command line. Not me. I just popped the CD in, installed, and everything worked perfectly on my laptop--screen resolution, suspend to RAM, wireless, etc. I've never compiled software before. I just use Synaptic or other .deb files.

Sure that's just my experience, but your need to do everything from scratch is also only your experience.

Perfect Storm
August 31st, 2007, 09:23 PM
Wonder if Nerolinux have that feature, I'll see if I can find any info.

ripdog
August 31st, 2007, 09:29 PM
Guess what? I have a 24" iMac. Not the latest one. This one has been around for more then 6 months. The fixes to get the iSight, wireless, audio have been around for months. Why arent they in Gutsy? I'm using beta 5 right now, and there has been absolutely no improvement for me. In fact, i can't even tell the difference between Gutsy and Feisty.

Yeah yeah, you are going to tell me to file a bug. It wont get done if you don't file a bug! That kinda implies that no devs use Macs. Without offering full out-of-the-box support for Intel Macs, they are almost locking out 5-10% of the market, as, in my opinion, OS X user's are likely to be less motivated to switch, and used to a computer that just... works.

And @aysiu, i'm willing to bet Ubuntu works flawlessly because you got a custom built computer with Linux compatible hardware. Linux will only win when it can support almost any hardware. It's a poor operating system that requires user's to search for hardware that will work.

aysiu
August 31st, 2007, 09:31 PM
And @aysiu, i'm willing to bet Ubuntu works flawlessly because you got a custom built computer with Linux compatible hardware. Actually, you'd lose the bet. It's a pre-built Dell Inspiron 500m that my wife and I bought before I'd even heard of Linux. As a matter of fact, I don't even know how to custom build a computer.

rsambuca
August 31st, 2007, 09:32 PM
I definitely wouldn't refer to ubuntu as a "poor operating system", but certainly some hardware is supported better than others. Not ubuntu's fault, as the hardware manufacturers have made it difficult.

very_japi
August 31st, 2007, 09:34 PM
I AGREE... it s insanely user unfriendly. I think the only reason im still using linux is because i am not gonna let this piece of bits and bytes beat me.

dasunst3r
August 31st, 2007, 09:34 PM
I understand your frustration, but I find it incredibly rude that you call the developers who write stuff out of "humanity for others," release it for free, let people see the inner workings, AND maintain the software the "bad guys." There are even worse scumbags out there (e.g. malware writers, murderers, rapists, pedophiles, ...), and putting people who do charitable work like this is a no-no in my book.

I have been using Linux for three years now, and it has made many, many strides despite the roadblocks that Microsoft puts in (hardware support, DRM, etc.).. It has been painful at times, but I have learned more about computers than I ever had using Windows. If you can make Windows work, then so be it.

rsambuca
August 31st, 2007, 09:48 PM
Maybe I was just lucky, but Ubuntu worked perfectly for me from day 1. I first tried the live CD and it worked. I then installed it on a small 6GB drive I had from an old machine, and it worked. After I realized that I would be using it more than just a curiosity thing, I repartioned my main drive and installed it there, and it worked. Later, I bought another drive, and have installed it, along with a number of other distros on this new drive, leaving XP and Vista on the original drive. They all just work.

The only time I have had any difficulties using linux is when I chose to make it difficult. ie. So many people use Windows or OSX and just use it and do what it allows them to do. Then, they try ubuntu and start to tweak this, tweak that, configure this, configure that. That is when the problems arise. It is because they choose to do these things.

Yes, many problems are due to hardware issues, but if you look at the majority of the problems in these threads, it is because people are trying to do things that really are outside the scope of the Ubuntu basic install. Things they would never consider trying in Windows, and yet, if they bork things, they blame ubuntu, or blame linux.

oo-boon-too
August 31st, 2007, 10:04 PM
Well I guess it's time to get my opinion in.

You seem to be quick to point the finger at Ubuntu. I don't mean to sound as if I am defending Linux, don't get me wrong. I don't feel the need to defend Linux. But from what you say it seems as if you are portraying Windows as the Holy Land of software. What about messages that windows gives, "FATAL ERROR: Kernel32.dll could not be loaded.", and the fact that the majority or software is either a 10 day demo or costs $999?(*cough*AdobeProducts*cough*) Windows isn't really all that "pure" either.

Yes Linux can be hard at times. But then again, you did come from Windows (As you said you re-installed, thus it must have been there in the first place). I like to think of it similar to speaking english and being dropped in Japan, or China; Everything looks different and you can't understand a thing. The best way to get started is to just use the Add/Remove Programs GUI to get the things you need, then start learning the terminal.

I have Both Windows XP and Ubuntu, and until 20 minutes before this post i had both installed on a 250 GB and 40GB HDD (respectively).

And (Forgot who it was at the moment) was right. Currently Linux isnt for everyone. I think this is true because the majority of the things made for computers in this day in age (And most of the time wayyyyy far back) are designed with Windows in mind. When Bungie makes a new Halo game, do you think that they for a split second think to themselves, "Hey, I wonder if this will work in Linux?". Of course not, they test it and design it for Windows XP. Maybe later on Linux will get its stand and things will be designed for it as well.

Ok well my update is done so I'm done writing lol.

Have fun on whatever Box you have.

BDNiner
August 31st, 2007, 10:06 PM
I have to agree with the post creator. When i started with ubuntu the first problem was i could not run the live CD and i figured out after a day that I could not use the DVI port on my video card at first, i had to install ubuntu with the monitor connected to the regular VGA, then rewrite the xorg.conf file before switching back to the DVI. Dual monitor support never worked properly, I could clone my desktop but not extend one desktop to 2 monitors. So i gave up on that idea.

I tried installing the real time kernel since i use my XP machine for audio production. The whole thing just blew up in my face. I will try ubuntu studio again this weekend since it is an extended holiday, which will give me time to mess things up, over and over again until i get it right. When i plug my external USB sound card, the whole system just freezes. M-audio has a company that writes linux drivers for them, i guess they have not gotten to my piece of hardware yet.

Once i got everything running well, things are great. I rarely use my windows computer. In fact it is just a media server right now. I like the way Rhythmbox was able to see my windows computer's my music directory. Once i have found a good way to image my ubuntu box then i will wipe my windows computer and install ubuntu server edition, so it will become a dedicated media/file/web server.

All in all this experience has been very trying, but i enjoy this kind of stuff, i can't tell you how many times i have worked through the night on my linux box because things were not working the way i wanted them too. It has been a great learning experience for me. I look forward to what linux has to offer.

ripdog
August 31st, 2007, 10:09 PM
Microsoft didn't put in any hardware DRM or somehow cripple Linux hardware support...
I don't quite understand your post, did someone call the Ubuntu devs rapists and pedophiles?
Yes, linux teaches you lots about computers. Ok, it dosent, it teaches you lots about itself, and the Unix way of doing things. And Unixes obsession with -'s and lower case letters.

So, what have the ubuntu devs done that nobody else has, in the name of "Humanity unto others"? Usplash, adds nothing in the way of user-friendlyness IMHO, just a sorta cumfort thing. =\ Desktop effects, the most useless App ever, all it does is install the Compiz package and set it to run automatically. Something like this could have been expanded into a "Getting started" app, that could help you get your installation to a workable state, helping you set up networking, resolution, drivers for all non-working harware, installing programs from a list of popular packages...
The restriced drivers app, not useless, but it would be nice if it TOLD you it cant connect to the repos, instead of some crappy error like "Package doesn't exist". Anyone who dosent know how/where to set up networking is going to be throughly confused by this.

Gutsy is going to have 2 very useful utilities, Bulletproof-X and that xorg.conf editer thingy. AFAIK, bulletproof was not created in any way by the Ubuntu devs, but i could be wrong.
The xorg.conf configerator is long overdue, and is already built in in distros like Mint.

So what i believe Ubuntu needs, is a getting started wizard. Instead of dumping them in the liveCD, and expecting them to work it all out, give them a Wizard to get them on their way,and get their computer usable. And PLEASE direct them to the forums if they have a problem, it's almost the only way to solve anything, and needs much greater prominence.

swisscow
August 31st, 2007, 10:25 PM
I have to say this user has my sympathies, I just think his annoyance is misdirected. I have been running Ubuntu quite happily for a year or so. decided to by a new laptop and made the mistake of getting a Sony. All of a sudden it was me googling to get things working.... and not getting anywhere. Not Ubuntu's fault but the hardware makers. But we all know this. Will research A LOT MORE before I buy another laptop (the new one's already on ebay in switzerland if anyone's interested).

Interestingly bought my girlfriend an mac book (she loves them) and all worked out of the box. On the other hand, the office suite is a sh*t load of cash as is everything else.)

So as been said many times before, thanks Ubuntu people for everything. Hardware people.....pull your finger out.

aysiu
August 31st, 2007, 10:33 PM
I have to say this user has my sympathies, I just think his annoyance is misdirected. Ditto.

Officer Dibble
August 31st, 2007, 10:46 PM
If someone's going move to another country, at some point they will realise that they will need to learn the language and the culture if they're going to be happy with it.

If I met one unfriendly person in that country then would I pack my bags and run home, unlikely. But as has been said, you found an application that seems to have been unfriendly with you and Linux - I'd put the problem squarely on the shoulders of that cheesey application.

Windows, it served a great purpose in helping people with no real knowledge of computing utilise that field because of its simplicity. Sadly, due to its unreliability, insecurity, and inflated pricing a lot of people have been badly stung by it too.

So, why has Windows remained so popular despite the major issues it has? I suppose you could call it a sort of Stockholm Syndrome, or the affection we could have for that loveable, bit of a rogue uncle, who just so happens to be a serial killer to everyone outside of the family.

What's more, with Windows, it has on the whole been pretty much free for many people for many years due to piracy. So to some degree people have had simplicity (albeit a simplicity fraught with danger) for nothing.

I was at a Microsoft conference when they announced the sort of money they are going to plough into the likes of Vista onwards with regard to security. We're talking big figures.

So in the long run Windows, if you want to continue using it, will become expensive if it isn't now, and you will need a new computer for every version they release of it. Whereas, all you needed to to do to stay on the ever progressing and free path of Linux was to try another app different to the 100K one you were trying to use but weren't sure it would do the job or not.

Anyone who wants to ignore Linux for Windows for the reasons you have cited probably deserves Windows... every bloaty, over-priced, under-tested, bug-ridden bit of it.

lancest
September 1st, 2007, 12:39 AM
To me Linux is a customized system.Unlike the others. I care about freedom, multitasking power and security. Sure its easy!
Once the end user learns the rules for using Ubuntu it should be no problem. For instance:
1.Beginners should only use repositories to install software. (Add/Remove).
2. If you are stuck on old or proprietary stuff you'd better use a virtual machine. (Linux apps are great)
People don't evaluate their needs before making the switch to Linux freedom so they have problem.
Linux is a true multi tasking system unlike Windows. Once you really understand it you will be very satisfied. No operating system can match its power, freedom and security (updating).

srt4play
September 1st, 2007, 01:04 AM
Just in case this thread comes up when someone searches for how to record on multiple drives at once, there is a program called turbojet that will do the job and is fairly easy to install.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=443164&highlight=turbojet

Kyran
September 1st, 2007, 08:57 AM
(the new one's already on ebay in switzerland if anyone's interested)

Who be interested in it now after you just announced it doesn't run Ubuntu? :D

dark_harmonics
September 1st, 2007, 11:03 AM
This guy is right when you are talking about super-customization of your OS. I have been reinstalling Ubuntu over and over again because of my various screw-ups and experimentations. It does take me a while to get it setup correctly and i do definatlely need to edit configuration files and use the command line.

What i don't agree with is the mention of the inaccurate error codes. Almost 99% of the time the error codes tell me how much of a dummy I am and point me in the right direction.

I do agree with the original poster in that this OS takes a lot of research. Yea it would be nice if things were more graphically oriented but people have to realize what a huge step forward Ubuntu is. It is by far the most user-friendly linux i have ever tried! Not only that, but the community is there to help when you have problems. I actually haven't had a problem yet that didn't already have a solution posted somewhere in this forum. That is incredible. I think this has to be one of the most extensive forums i have ever seen!

Ubuntu's advantages over windows are obvious when it comes to security, price, availability, portability (yes much easier for the hardware), user interface and support community. The only thing windows has over Ubuntu is that it is more graphical and more widely supported (because of the number of users).

Perfect Storm
September 1st, 2007, 11:09 AM
This guy is right when you are talking about super-customization of your OS. I have been reinstalling Ubuntu over and over again because of my various screw-ups and experimentations. It does take me a while to get it setup correctly and i do definatlely need to edit configuration files and use the command line.

What i don't agree with is the mention of the inaccurate error codes. Almost 99% of the time the error codes tell me how much of a dummy I am and point me in the right direction.

I do agree with the original poster in that this OS takes a lot of research. Yea it would be nice if things were more graphically oriented but people have to realize what a huge step forward Ubuntu is. It is by far the most user-friendly linux i have ever tried! Not only that, but the community is there to help when you have problems. I actually haven't had a problem yet that didn't already have a solution posted somewhere in this forum. That is incredible. I think this has to be one of the most extensive forums i have ever seen!

Ubuntu's advantages over windows are obvious when it comes to security, price, availability, portability (yes much easier for the hardware), user interface and support community. The only thing windows has over Ubuntu is that it is more graphical and more widely supported (because of the number of users).

Winner!

will also add customizable.

armandh
September 1st, 2007, 11:35 AM
so some expert linux user writes a program but provides no support.
and the rest of the linux universe is some how to blame?
I think it was a poor choice of application that is at fault.

if you are not a half way competent electrician don't start rewiring the house.
rather stick with appliances that just plug in

Bloch
September 1st, 2007, 11:47 AM
As a 2-year user I have to agree with some of the frustration, though it's mainly directed at old badly socumented apps then the core system.

My wife just installed praat on ubuntu. She usually uses it in windows. Tried it once on OS X too. But on linux the makers leave this warning:


On Ubuntu or Fedora, the static edition is sometimes reported to have the problem that you cannot type any letters into it. A possible solution is to use the dynamic edition, which requires that you install OpenMotif_devel (see above). If that edition does not run, try the static edition again, but include the command XKEYSYMDB=/usr/share/X11/XKeysymDB into the file /etc/environment (you have to become root to do that).

Ran the windows version through wine and it was fine!!

I'm looking at amule. On the help button it says "p2p client based on emule" plus a URL to a FAQ.

Nicotine doesn't work when downloaded. No indication why not, but it seems you have to assign a download directory first.

Right now my update icon is shining. It's a new kernel waiting. No info on what the difference is.
Guess what? When I do that update I can be pretty sure my graphics card won't work. Quite possibly I'll go to a terminal GUI.

These are statements of fact: only the first is a statement of opinion.

My guess is that software programmers have higher expectations of linux users.

Alex Fernandez
September 1st, 2007, 08:08 PM
so some expert linux user writes a program but provides no support.

Many developers create software for thier own use, and then release it for others to use "as is", you should be thankfull they are releasing software for free in the first place

Weird
September 1st, 2007, 08:44 PM
Hi bsmonks, don't give up! I started using Ubuntu about 8 days ago :) and can understand your frustration, but the more I mess up the more I learn and I've yet to post a thread. Some of the comments have been a little harsh, but perhaps they've felt angered by an attack on what they see as something personal: Linux (as I understand it) is written by and maintained by non-payrolled individuals. The same cannot be said for MS, unfortunately. I love the concept of Linux, but still need to run XP for some programs that can't run on Ubuntu, therefore dual boot. Try it, you may be surprised. But don't give up, stay part of this world-wide supportive group. Cheers.

multifaceted
September 1st, 2007, 11:28 PM
Wow, bsmonks... can you not humbly accept defeat? If Linux doesn't work for then you shouldn't use it. Therefore, complaining about it among the community and lashing out at particular users is poor choice of conduct... and childish.

picpak
September 1st, 2007, 11:33 PM
I hate to do this.

I really do.

But I just found a Disc-o-Matic .deb (http://idefix.eup.uva.es/soleup/pool/main/d/discomatic/discomatic_0.3-1_i386.deb), within five minutes of searching.

cudds
September 1st, 2007, 11:33 PM
People don't evaluate their needs before making the switch to Linux freedom so they have problem.

Good point - why move to Linux in the first place?
It is NOT for everyone. Most windows users are used to their XP and want it that way.
I moved over a home for something 'fun' to do - something to learn. I tried to move over at work but as I'm in a Microsoft office this just made this hell and completely pointless.

Hell - if everyone was running Linux I'd probably be installing XP at home!

r4ik
September 1st, 2007, 11:41 PM
Read,

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CriticismFAQ

chris027
September 2nd, 2007, 07:14 PM
I've read a lot of posts, including "is Ubuntu right for you." The person who wrote is 100% correct, from what I can tell after a week with Ubuntu...and at this point in time.
My question is simply, "what's the long-term goal of Linux?"
From most of the articles and user posts that I've read, it seems the point is to offer a free/affordable alternative to the "monopoly OS" and to eventually have full support of the major software/hardware distributors. The catch for the major companies is that the demand has to be there. And, to have the demand, you have to attract enough users to "switch over."
About 7 years ago, I bought an over the counter Red Hat version on an impulse at Target. I never heard of Linux before, but an OS that cost $15 caught my attention. When I got home, the Install was relatively easy, even did a dual boot with Windows 2000. But then..then came the problems. About 60% of my hardware didn't work. When I searched the internet on another PC, I found that I had to find and then manually install drivers via some command line thing, that kind of looked like DOS. The desktop was awkward, and hell, the penguin was square shaped. After a week of frustration, that was the end of Linux.
My feeling is that I TRULLY believe that we are all getting ripped off by the major companies and also the ISP's. The reason I believe this is because 90% of what we look at everyday on a computer is an advertisement or a come on to buy something. I think of the internet as some big interactive television commercial. And we pay a good percentage of our weekly checks just to be able to look at it. I think software and the internet should be a lot cheaper than it is, and if I can find a reliable way, I'd be happy to preach it to and show others how to use it.
Now 7 years later, I'm taking some time off from work and was reading web sites and posts about how exciting Linux was and, wow, there's like a million different versions. I'm happy to give it another try, so I downloaded Ubuntu (yes, because it was top rated on another site). Again, I found it was easy to install and this time the desktop is very clean. There's also a lot of compatible software already included.
But then came my first problem. The belkin wifi adapter doesn't work (still doesn't). So I found a driver easily, but to install it..oh no, it's that dreaded terminal thing...IT'S STILL HERE! and it's still a necessity for a lot of what you do on Linux. The people witting instructional pages mean well, but they all seem to be talking in another language.
I've read a lot of posts suggesting that if you're not interested in learning the terminal, than you should stay with Windows. That's absolutely 100% correct. But it's definitely not going to put Linux in the everyday household. Not because people don't want to learn, but simply because they don't have the time and it is rather complicated to the everyday Windows user.
A few months ago i had to buy my first apple, osx. It took me less than a day to have a good basic understanding of that system. They've done a good job of making osx extremely user friendly and just about any windows user can switch over. The problem is that a mac pc is way too expensive.
To me, I've (kind of) had a glimpse of where Linux was almost a decade ago, and today I'm really only having one problem with one device...MAJOR improvement. But I wonder what the next problem is going to be?
Since I have the time, I am definitely willing to take the challenge of learning the dreaded terminal. But I can tell you for sure, millions of everyday users are not going to embrace it. I think the attitude "well, if you're not interested in learning the commands, then you should just stick to windows" is hypocritical to the (assumed) goal of getting more people interested in Linux. But, again, as of right now, it's also correct.
Sure, in a few weeks, I'll find the system a lot easier, but it's the person I am right now, just switching over, that is the true test of how successful Linux will be.
Sorry for the long post, just read some guy on another page making fun of new users and then in the same paragraph saying "his" OS was superior. Probably some punk kid. Don't know why, kinda bothered me, though.

Gremlinzzz
September 2nd, 2007, 07:23 PM
Just install a out of the box ready linux system like mint or pclinuxos then you wont have to learn any thing just like windows! except its free easy to use and way better than vista.

swisscow
September 2nd, 2007, 07:24 PM
The mac os is very closely integrated with the hardware. Linux (and *******) has a much bigger target audience to cater for. *******, fortunately for them, has the support of the manufacturers. Linux is slowly gaining the support. So the command line can be daunting at first but once you get past that it can save a heck of a load of time. Many parts of windows can also be daunting - set up a home network - do people know about IP addresses, DNS etc.

If people are prepared to learn they will succeed. Hopefully with time the remaining hardware stumbling blocks will disappear.

Wiebelhaus
September 2nd, 2007, 07:29 PM
ubuntu forum users critted by "TEXT WALL OF DOOM" for 10 Million.

meborc
September 2nd, 2007, 07:30 PM
well... linux is not windows alternative... that is the main fault in your logics :) ... the linux way is a DIFFERENT way of doing things... YES we probably still need more GUI's to accomplish what we now do in CLI, but still... i wouldn't get rid of terminal even though i have been using ubuntu for only 2 years...

i quickly realized what can be done in terminal/command line and that no-matter-how-good-GUI's will never be as powerful

linux is a beautiful thing... it has its own way of doing things... and we should not try to change it to something it is NOT... IT IS NOT WINDOWS

there... i said it :d

wolfen69
September 2nd, 2007, 07:30 PM
Just install a out of the box ready linux system like mint or pclinuxos then you wont have to learn any thing just like windows! except its free easy to use and way better than vista.

agreed. ubuntu ultimate, sabayon are 2 others that come to mind that are easy, brainless installs. you NEVER need to use the command line. and unlike windows, don't need hours of tweaking, downloading drivers, anti-virus, etc. i find windows to be a major pain in the butt to set up. to the OP: you are wrong. you've been brainwashed into thinking windows is the cure for the worlds ills, sad. grow up and move along.

Frak
September 2nd, 2007, 07:32 PM
To Develop and advance, thats it. Thats what its been from the beggining.
Never to replace Windows.
Never to replace OSX.
Never to be "Desktop Ready"
Just to advance.

leo_rockway
September 2nd, 2007, 07:44 PM
I don't agree with you on two things. I don't think the objective of Lignux is to be in every house and to get more and more people using it. It is only there to offer an alternative. Whether you like the OS or not... that's completely up to you. That's part of the second thing I don't agree with you.

You complain about the "dreaded command line still being there", while I applaud the useful tool the command line is and I'm happy it is still there (and how it will always be there).

I said it before and I repeat it now (in a non-trolling, non-elitist, non-flamewar-starting way): Lignux is not for everybody; there are people not willing to dedicate the time to learn it and that's fine, they can keep using ******* since nobody is being forced to use Lignux. But if you decide to use it, don't think it is just a free-as-in-beer Windows (or OS X), because it is not.

Also, I do feel my OS is superior (otherwise I wouldn't be using it), but that's my opinion which of course doesn't need to agree with yours.

Take care and keep posting; I found your post very interesting.

chris027
September 2nd, 2007, 07:46 PM
to the OP: you are wrong. you've been brainwashed into thinking windows is the cure for the worlds ills, sad. grow up and move along.
who me? I think it's an overpriced monopoly and needs competition.

Henaro
September 2nd, 2007, 07:49 PM
Some people prefer that "dreaded terminal thing". :/

Too me, curses apps tend to be a lot easier to use than the messy GUI apps.

chris027
September 2nd, 2007, 07:52 PM
leo , the only thing i'm saying is that IF the goal of Linux is to rival windows, which some people say it is (some don't), then it would attract more windows users if it were a little simpler, mainly in regards to the terminal. that's really my only point, other than the fact it seems to be getting there.
and i am willing to learn the commands because i think it's interesting.

ticopelp
September 2nd, 2007, 07:57 PM
But I can tell you for sure, millions of everyday users are not going to embrace it. I think the attitude "well, if you're not interested in learning the commands, then you should just stick to windows" is hypocritical to the (assumed) goal of getting more people interested in Linux. But, again, as of right now, it's also correct.

The problem is, you can't make people want to learn. Personally, I think people should use whatever computing tool works best for them. But right now, if someone wants to learn Linux, they have to be willing to do just that -- learn. Most people come from years of using Windows and are expecting Linux to be exactly like it -- often throwing around terms like "counterintuitive" when often, by "intuitive" they mean "like Windows."

From my point of view, I just think it's unrealistic not to expect people to have to learn new things if they're going to try a different OS, and I don't think it's hypocritical, elitist or arrogant to say so.

To the constant challenge of "the average user / everyday Joe / millions of people won't do this" -- I see that term tossed around daily on this board, and the truth is, there's no magic bullet for that. If there were, Ubuntu would be the #1 OS, wouldn't it?

The one thing I will say about Macs is that one of the big reasons for its stability and ease of use is a complete vendor lock-in and closed system. There's no hardware or install troubles because you can only buy hardware from one place -- Apple. And that means they set the price, and they set it very high.

To me, the big draw of Linux is total freedom to do what you want with the OS -- no forced upgrades, no paying for updates, no DRM, no spyware, no viruses... and despite the increased complexity of using the OS, the payoff is very high for me in that I can build the kind of computing environment I want.

There are a lot of circumstances under which a user would never have to use a terminal -- if all their hardware is supported and they don't want to tinker with anything really advanced. A computer that browses the Internet, checks email, and plays music would be pretty easy to set up and never require any use of the terminal -- assuming the hardware is all supported. And it's hardware vendors who make that difficult, not Ubuntu.

Ubuntu isn't perfect yet, but they're getting better all the time. Of course, Windows isn't perfect either, and to my mind, getting worse all the time, but no one seems to complain about that as much. ;)

aysiu
September 2nd, 2007, 07:58 PM
I've merged this with the Desktop Readiness thread.

P.S. I mentioned in the Is Ubuntu for You? thread that you might (in Ubuntu, not all Linux distributions) have to copy and paste (which you can do using the mouse's right-click capabilities) some commands into the terminal. I never said you had to learn the commands. If you truly believe the need to copy and paste a few commands is what stops most users from switching from Windows to Ubuntu, I would suggest you Ask ten people on the street what Linux is Buy Ubuntu preinstalled on a Dell Set up an old Canon printer in Mac OS X Try PCLinuxOS or Mepis Install a .msi file in Windows when logged in as a limited user (after all, Windows does give you "Run as," or would you prefer most users stay logged in as administrator? Interview a Geek Squad employee and ask her why they're still in business Read this thread I merged yours with

chris027
September 2nd, 2007, 08:37 PM
I've merged this with the Desktop Readiness thread.

P.S. I mentioned in the Is Ubuntu for You? thread that you might (in Ubuntu, not all Linux distributions) have to copy and paste (which you can do using the mouse's right-click capabilities) some commands into the terminal. I never said you had to learn the commands. If you truly believe the need to copy and paste a few commands is what stops most users from switching from Windows to Ubuntu, I would suggest you Ask ten people on the street what Linux is Buy Ubuntu preinstalled on a Dell Set up an old Canon printer in Mac OS X Try PCLinuxOS or Mepis Install a .msi file in Windows when logged in as a limited user (after all, Windows does give you "Run as," or would you prefer most users stay logged in as administrator? Interview a Geek Squad employee and ask her why they're still in business Read this thread I merged yours with

lol cute.
you cant cut and paste anything if the network adapter (the most basic one sold in walmarts across the country) doesn't work to get you online to find the commands in the first place...which is pretty much the point i was making.
-wouldn't know what it is
-not in most stores
-try plugging a NEW printer into linux
-maybe I will
-most average (stupid in your opinion, right?) user's wouldn't need to
-doubt they're helping people with linux (although i wish they were)

it's a good thing people who get it are working to make linux more user friendly, because some of its users just don't seem to see the need, eh?

lckychrms
September 2nd, 2007, 08:47 PM
While I can understand your frustration in that linux is not yet completely plug and play, there are a couple of things you should keep in mind:

Before changing to any new OS, you should check to ensure your hardware is supported

While Ubuntu is getting easier and easier to use, it still requires some terminal skills

Jim

karellen
September 2nd, 2007, 09:12 PM
Linux needs market share. that's a fact. larger market share means better hardware support out of the box, means original drivers. I think that nobody want to have piece of hardware (webcam, camera, printer, scanner etc) that can't be used at 100% in Linux

ticopelp
September 2nd, 2007, 09:43 PM
you cant cut and paste anything if the network adapter (the most basic one sold in walmarts across the country) doesn't work to get you online to find the commands in the first place...which is pretty much the point i was making.

You can't do that in any OS. That sort of problem used to crop up for me all the time when I worked Windows tech support. Win 98 / 2K / Me doesn't support that network card? Sucks to be you. And that's happened with off-the-shelf hardware, much to my surprise and chagrin.

I always have a second computer with a Net connection handy, or some other backup plan when installing or upgrading a new OS or doing anything else where disastrous failure might be an issue. And that was a habit I started under Windows, actually.

koenn
September 3rd, 2007, 05:52 PM
l
-most average (stupid in your opinion, right?) user's wouldn't need to
...
it's a good thing people who get it are working to make linux more user friendly, because some of its users just don't seem to see the need, eh?
Never thought I'd see aysiu thrown in with the 'Linux Elitists" :)

Frak
September 3rd, 2007, 06:03 PM
Never thought I'd see aysiu thrown in with the 'Linux Elitists" :)
I was thinking the exact same thing :)

aysiu
September 3rd, 2007, 06:10 PM
I think a lot of people just don't bother to read what I write. They read into it whatever the feel like arguing with.

wolfear
September 3rd, 2007, 10:03 PM
Linux is friendly.
It's just that, unlike Windows, Linux is a bit pickier about who its friends are.

(I didn't come up with this one. I read something similar on Groklaw earlier.)