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SWBgHz
July 8th, 2007, 05:26 AM
Another non-student of history. There have been a number of superior alternatives to MS operating systems over the years - most of which have been killed off by MS's monopolistic actions. (some of them for other reasons, or only assisted by MS decisions) Among these are GEM, BeOS and AmigaDOS. To take one example, Amiga - the sytem was so far ahead of MS at the time that they STILL have not caught up in many ways - and that was the late 80's!

Consider if you will, that at the time before Win95, Windows was a teetering, single-tasking, barely colour capable, low resolution window manager on top of a limited OS that could barely handle a 32 Meg drive - not too reliably. At this same time, Amiga was a fully (user prioritizable) multi-tasking system, capable of handling lots of colours (including TV and video editing), and fully GUI driven from a ROM (no root kits possible). Programming it was trivially easy (Motorola flat address space to thank for most of that) - 32-bit (Win was 16, sort of), and it could display multiple different resolutions on the same screen AT THE SAME TIME. Not to mention that its default file system was fault tolerant and handled partitions of 2Gb with ease. You would have a REAL hard time convincing me that was not a SUPERIOR alternative at that time. (BTW - Mac was in exsitence, but still single colour, and used a task switcher that depended on programs being 'well-behaved' and allowing control to pass to others often)

So what happened? Well - BeOS and GEM were mostly killed by MS's illegal OEM tactics (BeOS systems were forced to be shipped with MS on it as well, and default booting to MS!) and GEM systems, if detected, caused error messages to appear in MS systems. The Amiga, all they did was refuse to deploy their 'Office' software on it (although they did for Mac) despite the fact that Mac ran the same chip family, and the Amiga had a much larger market share at the time....

MS has never been about choice, OR superiority of anything other than marketing.... or perhaps tactics.

Consider this a denial!

And BETAMAX was better than VHS!!! come on, MS never did anything that all other business don't do all day long - use position to drive for market share. I am not saying it is fair, but illegal - please - it is only illegal in a politically correct world bent an attacking the successfully. Here the winds changing about how Google is treated anyone? Windows is where it is because MS succeeded where others failed - not because MS was a long evil monopoly trodding over the innocent and altruistic competition who did no wrong and had all the better stuff for less money hidden away from the public.

Don't get me wrong - you are right in saying that early on MS was successful more for their ability to bring products to market and market them effectively (and their ability to develop and maintain an infrastructure capable of supporting the growing industry). of this I will not argue - but history is ripe with such things. It is rarely who is first and often not who is best but who gets their product to market the best and sells it the best. And this comes back full circle to the issue at hand - Ubuntu desktop readiness, and the point I have been trying to make. Build a better mouse trap but you had better make sure it meets expectations of the market or they will reject it - better or not.


Ewww FWD..... I'm confused by what you are trying to say. If we are talking in technical terms then Linux (used as a collective name for all Linux based OS's) is as ready for the desktop as Windows is. It can run on the hardware, it allows for development of drivers for it, it allows for development of software for it, it includes a discovereable and easy to use GUI.

If we are talking marketing terms then the answer is "depends". A huge number of people who don't use a computer for anything other than a Web terminal wouldn't have a problem with using Linux, OS X, or Windows (though this one is quite a bit less safe). To them it would just not make a difference.

If you happen to need a specialized piece of software that only runs on Windows and it cannot run in Wine or VMWare (there is an interesting article on how to make any Windows program run on the desktop without having to boot into a full VM somewhere on the forum) then yes Linux is not ready.

It all depends on the kind of work you do, your hardware, and the tools necessary. Ubuntu was up and running in about 40 minutes on my tablet without any CLI tweaking (I did have to install a driver outside of repos but it was a .deb so I just double clicked it, then put it in a start up file that was admittedly text). Same with my desktop and the other (now deceased) laptop (except they didn't even need stuff outside of repos). I don't depend on any proprietary software to get my work done so I have no problem using Ubuntu.

I can agree with alot of what you have said here - certainly with the overall tone. I do think you are a little short on one premise and that being the hardware/software thing. Until linux gets more popular the hardware issue will continue to be hit and miss, sure it is better than before but it is not what is needed for a substantial market penettration and until Linux becomes a bit more 'windowsy' it will be hard to really get hat hardware support. On the software side, yes, GNU provides some great work but honestly, in many cases Open Source is not ready for the other 90%. it works for me and you because we know how to find it, how to work around its issues or work through them - but come on, there are still people (lots of them) who only know about their computer what they click on in AOLs miserable software - there is a big difference between having Firefox and OpenOffice and saying you can do everything Windows does. Firefox is excellent, not question about it - OpenOffice is good (not in my opinion as good as Office though but the price difference considered OO is good). And lets not forget gaming - maybe not big to some but overall - a big part of being a desktop PC. You cannot forget this, and in this arena Linux is abysmal. Lastly, serviceability - I think Linux administration is way to hard for the average user. it isn't that it is so terribly designed or managed it is just difficult for a non expert despite the wealth of info out there with answers. If Linux administration improves over the next year the way the Linux hardware situation has then it will have made huge strides toward the average desktop.

freebird54
July 8th, 2007, 05:38 AM
Ireferred to the tactics as illegal because they were found to be so by a US court. I do not toss the term around in the sense of 'ought to be'. Unfortunatelyt, the remedy stopped short of what would have been best - both for the marketplace, and, I believe, for MS.

Had they been forced to separate the OS business from the application business I l;elieve that BOTH would be better for it now. For instance, app decisions (like changing file formats) would not be driven by OS selling considerations - and vice versa.

The price will be paid eventually for this failing - and the first whiffs of it are wafting across the worldwide vista as we post..... :)

freebird54
July 8th, 2007, 05:46 AM
I think Linux administration is way to hard for the average user. it isn't that it is so terribly designed or managed it is just difficult for a non expert despite the wealth of info out there with answers. If Linux administration improves over the next year the way the Linux hardware situation has then it will have made huge strides toward the average desktop.

I think you leave out a MAJOR consideration with this statement. Regardless of how easy/hard administration is on Linux, it is HUGELY easier for the 'average' user than is Windows.

Yes, easier. Consider all that you do NOT NEED to do on a Linux box that is required on a Windows box.

Install, run, and keep updated an anit-virus solution
Install, run, and keep updated an anti-spyware solution
Regular scans on top of the above.
Removal of unnecesary addons as they accumulate (and often auto-start without your knowledge or consent)
Oh - and a LARGE one - regular defragmention of your file system, as well as dealing with the accumulation of orphaned files.

Looks like a lot more admin work to me! I didn't even mention the need (thankfully lessening with each new version) to reboot Windows regularly to clean up memory allocation issues and the resulting slowdowns. I guess Licux admin tasks are a complete breeze! The average user can just let it run - and click a couple of times when asked to for installing updates...

aysiu
July 8th, 2007, 05:50 AM
To safely administer Windows XP is not easy at all. The "Run as..." implementation is severely crippled.

Ubuntu's sudo and gksudo implementations work flawlessly for temporary privilege escalation.

Of course, if you run Windows as administrator all the time, of course it appears "easy." It also happens to be easy to compromise and hard to fix once it's been screwed up by spyware.

wog
July 8th, 2007, 07:33 AM
Does that mean you think Windows is pretty?

Yes. Mac is prettier, but Windows is pretty. :)

wog
July 8th, 2007, 07:57 AM
The only reason M$ is where they are today given the options that have been available is the collusion between them and Intel. For the longest time, many programs would fail to run unless they were being run by an Intel chip, and in return, Intel allowed M$ more access to command codes first and foremost so Windows used Intel chips to the very best of their ability. It was a match made in heaven for the pair of them, a match made in hell if you were anyone else.

And then M$ business practices were defined as illegal in a court of law, but Intel still held enough power that they could maintain their monopoly. And then finally AMD and Cyrix came along to give people a choice other than Intel.

M$ is currently coasting on earlier market share. Given what Linux has been up against as an OS, it's done stupendously well, which is why it will eventually win. Making the argument that Just because Linux hasn't won yet it's a Windows world is short-sighted. Microsoft's issues about control over their OS is driving people away from Windows in record numbers. And Mac isn't cheap, although in the world of single user machines they're the best thought out, and incidentally the model Microsoft stole from to make Windows.

It's only a matter of time.

Beatbreaker
July 8th, 2007, 12:29 PM
If you ask me from my experience this far i don't think that Ubuntu is desktop ready for your average user.

since i've been using this i've had to MANUALLY configure the following thigs:

My Mouse (the most basic of input devices!)
my Printer (installing it was not very easy)
my hard drives to mount with NTFS read/write
dual boot and the grub to work properley
getting firefox to use uTorrent for .torrent files (script had to be made)
i still havent gotten my webcam to work (not looking forward to it)
getting networking to work between my machine and 2 windows machines
i've just found out that when i browse for images or attachments in forefox/thunderbird i won't be able to see a priview, so that's more manual stuff i'm going to have to fix up.
and whatever other reasons i had to go in and edit menu.lst fstab and xorg.conf

i realise now that this is something somebody really has to be commited to working on to get it working on their end - i'm doing this in the hope that i can suggest from a n00bs POV that this is not made easy. I don't mind a changellenge personally but if people are going to be picking this up as "Linux for human beings" then it's going to have to be made a whole lot easier to use.

stuff like a GUI mouse configure menu, a right click "auto mount this hard drive on boot", more included printer drivers, and with easycam pre installed could make gettig the basics up and running less painful for people.

I'm not writing this as to say "i've quit" i'm actually going to be more persistant, but i do hope that much of what is asked for and reccommended to the developers of the coming versions of Ubuntu is listened to and considered with the main focus of ease of use and instillation for the common user in mind and not adding bells and whistles people can do without atleast for a while.

ukripper
July 8th, 2007, 12:56 PM
If you ask me from my experience this far i don't think that Ubuntu is desktop ready for your average user.

since i've been using this i've had to MANUALLY configure the following thigs:

My Mouse (the most basic of input devices!)
my Printer (installing it was not very easy)
my hard drives to mount with NTFS read/write
dual boot and the grub to work properley
getting firefox to use uTorrent for .torrent files (script had to be made)
i still havent gotten my webcam to work (not looking forward to it)
getting networking to work between my machine and 2 windows machines
i've just found out that when i browse for images or attachments in forefox/thunderbird i won't be able to see a priview, so that's more manual stuff i'm going to have to fix up.
and whatever other reasons i had to go in and edit menu.lst fstab and xorg.conf

i realise now that this is something somebody really has to be commited to working on to get it working on their end - i'm doing this in the hope that i can suggest from a n00bs POV that this is not made easy. I don't mind a changellenge personally but if people are going to be picking this up as "Linux for human beings" then it's going to have to be made a whole lot easier to use.

stuff like a GUI mouse configure menu, a right click "auto mount this hard drive on boot", more included printer drivers, and with easycam pre installed could make gettig the basics up and running less painful for people.

I'm not writing this as to say "i've quit" i'm actually going to be more persistant, but i do hope that much of what is asked for and reccommended to the developers of the coming versions of Ubuntu is listened to and considered with the main focus of ease of use and instillation for the common user in mind and not adding bells and whistles people can do without atleast for a while.

I would say you were being unlucky as everythng worked for me pretty well and whereas Print drivers are concerned that ain't ubuntu but manufacturers themselves who don't supply drivers for linux distributions. Blaming ubuntu developers is just naive act which windows users usually tend to put on. Automatix2 would install NTFS read-write tool for you easily. And again Webcam support depends on manufacturer. For me Ktorrent and Bittorrent works with firefox without any scripts needed also works with swiftfox included in Automatix2. Linux is much more ready for desktops just need to recognise the way it works which is not windows.

ukripper
July 8th, 2007, 01:04 PM
The only reason M$ is where they are today given the options that have been available is the collusion between them and Intel. For the longest time, many programs would fail to run unless they were being run by an Intel chip, and in return, Intel allowed M$ more access to command codes first and foremost so Windows used Intel chips to the very best of their ability. It was a match made in heaven for the pair of them, a match made in hell if you were anyone else.

And then M$ business practices were defined as illegal in a court of law, but Intel still held enough power that they could maintain their monopoly. And then finally AMD and Cyrix came along to give people a choice other than Intel.

M$ is currently coasting on earlier market share. Given what Linux has been up against as an OS, it's done stupendously well, which is why it will eventually win. Making the argument that Just because Linux hasn't won yet it's a Windows world is short-sighted. Microsoft's issues about control over their OS is driving people away from Windows in record numbers. And Mac isn't cheap, although in the world of single user machines they're the best thought out, and incidentally the model Microsoft stole from to make Windows.

It's only a matter of time.


Well said wog, completely agree with you on that. But I still wonder why Intel didn't steal codes from MS and made their own OS to work with their hardware.

kamaboko
July 8th, 2007, 01:13 PM
I would say you were being unlucky as everythng worked for me pretty well and whereas Print drivers are concerned that ain't ubuntu but manufacturers themselves who don't supply drivers for linux distributions. Blaming ubuntu developers is just naive act which windows users usually tend to put on. Automatix2 would install NTFS read-write tool for you easily. And again Webcam support depends on manufacturer. For me Ktorrent and Bittorrent works with firefox without any scripts needed also works with swiftfox included in Automatix2. Linux is much more ready for desktops just need to recognise the way it works which is not windows.


Hmmmm....so if a user has problems setting up Ubuntu it's b/c they were unlucky, but if they have similar problems with Vista it's b/c Vista is crap, right? :lolflag: Ubuntu isn't ready
for prime time yet.

kamaboko
July 8th, 2007, 01:16 PM
M$ is currently coasting on earlier market share.



And this explains why they sold more copies of Vista (20 million) in its first two months of sales than they did XP (17 million)? Must be a pretty fast coasting speed.

fyllekajan
July 8th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Yes. Mac is prettier, but Windows is pretty. :)
That's alright. I'm just trying to separate facts from opinions. In this thread they seem pretty much mixed up. ;)

darrenm
July 8th, 2007, 02:44 PM
If you ask me from my experience this far i don't think that Ubuntu is desktop ready for your average user.

since i've been using this i've had to MANUALLY configure the following thigs:

My Mouse (the most basic of input devices!)
my Printer (installing it was not very easy)
my hard drives to mount with NTFS read/write
dual boot and the grub to work properley
getting firefox to use uTorrent for .torrent files (script had to be made)
i still havent gotten my webcam to work (not looking forward to it)
getting networking to work between my machine and 2 windows machines
i've just found out that when i browse for images or attachments in forefox/thunderbird i won't be able to see a priview, so that's more manual stuff i'm going to have to fix up.
and whatever other reasons i had to go in and edit menu.lst fstab and xorg.conf

i realise now that this is something somebody really has to be commited to working on to get it working on their end - i'm doing this in the hope that i can suggest from a n00bs POV that this is not made easy. I don't mind a changellenge personally but if people are going to be picking this up as "Linux for human beings" then it's going to have to be made a whole lot easier to use.

stuff like a GUI mouse configure menu, a right click "auto mount this hard drive on boot", more included printer drivers, and with easycam pre installed could make gettig the basics up and running less painful for people.

I'm not writing this as to say "i've quit" i'm actually going to be more persistant, but i do hope that much of what is asked for and reccommended to the developers of the coming versions of Ubuntu is listened to and considered with the main focus of ease of use and instillation for the common user in mind and not adding bells and whistles people can do without atleast for a while.

Sounds like you had a really bad time with Ubuntu. Perhaps it isnt right for you and/or your hardware. Its pointless spending that much time on something you obviously dont enjoy doing.

Personally I have to use ubuntu because I don't have time (with family life) to fiddle with Windows with setting things up where everything just works in Ubuntu. I'm flummoxed as to why you've had problems with all those things where they should work out of the box but I would stick with what works best for you.

Good luck :)

ukripper
July 8th, 2007, 03:19 PM
Hmmmm....so if a user has problems setting up Ubuntu it's b/c they were unlucky, but if they have similar problems with Vista it's b/c Vista is crap, right? :lolflag: Ubuntu isn't ready
for prime time yet.

I never mentioned Vista is crap ...depends what you mean by prime time - I think by prime time you mean sitting in front of computer and it would do it all for you, right?:lolflag: ubuntu is ready for desktop but some people who will use it ain't as they are lazy.

salsafyren
July 8th, 2007, 03:58 PM
my hard drives to mount with NTFS read/write

NTFS is patented and developers need to reverse engineer the damn thing. What do you expect?



dual boot and the grub to work properley


I find that hard to believe. I never had a problem with dual boot.



getting firefox to use uTorrent for .torrent files (script had to be made)


Use Transmission or another native Linux bittorrent client. If you use uTorrent, you are on your own.



i still havent gotten my webcam to work (not looking forward to it)


Webcams seem to suck on Linux, I agree with that.


getting networking to work between my machine and 2 windows machines


Samba has gone backwards for me also. It worked in the past, but has stopped working.



i've just found out that when i browse for images or attachments in forefox/thunderbird i won't be able to see a priview, so that's more manual stuff i'm going to have to fix up.


This is a major feature missing in GTK, I agree with that. Someone should really dedicate some resources for this one.



and whatever other reasons i had to go in and edit menu.lst fstab and xorg.conf


Editing those three should never be necessary for normal users. There should be UI options for those. Editing xorg.conf should not be necessary anymore with Gutsy.



i realise now that this is something somebody really has to be commited to working on to get it working on their end - i'm doing this in the hope that i can suggest from a n00bs POV that this is not made easy. I don't mind a changellenge personally but if people are going to be picking this up as "Linux for human beings" then it's going to have to be made a whole lot easier to use.


I agree. You have some good points and I hope that they will be fixed in the future.



stuff like a GUI mouse configure menu, a right click "auto mount this hard drive on boot", more included printer drivers, and with easycam pre installed could make gettig the basics up and running less painful for people.


I agree.



I'm not writing this as to say "i've quit" i'm actually going to be more persistant, but i do hope that much of what is asked for and reccommended to the developers of the coming versions of Ubuntu is listened to and considered with the main focus of ease of use and instillation for the common user in mind and not adding bells and whistles people can do without atleast for a while.

I totally agree. The basic things should be worked on. Eye candy can wait, IMHO.

cobrn1
July 8th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Hmmmm....so if a user has problems setting up Ubuntu it's b/c they were unlucky, but if they have similar problems with Vista it's b/c Vista is crap, right?

What you say seems to have merit, but there are mitigating circumstances. For example, all pcs that are sold with ubuntu (by dell and other, smaller retailers) work out of the box. The same cannot alway be said of vista.

There is now some debate as to which of vista and ubuntu has the best hardware support, in many cases you'll find that it is ubuntu - seriously, look it up if you don't believe me - I was quite shocked to (but in a good way :-p).

Given that thing typically do work with ubuntu, it _is_ unluck if your configuration doesn't. On the other hand, given that thing are less likely to work on a vista install, it's fair to say it's because vista's inferior, which can be paraphrased as 'crap'.


Oh and this goes a few pages back, but linux users would like to be like windows users inthat they'd like the same level of manufacturer support. As pointed out, microsoft don't write the majority of the drivers, only a few. Without the manufacturers support, microsoft would be up the creek...

prizrak
July 8th, 2007, 04:31 PM
I can agree with alot of what you have said here - certainly with the overall tone. I do think you are a little short on one premise and that being the hardware/software thing. Until linux gets more popular the hardware issue will continue to be hit and miss, sure it is better than before but it is not what is needed for a substantial market penettration and until Linux becomes a bit more 'windowsy' it will be hard to really get hat hardware support. On the software side, yes, GNU provides some great work but honestly, in many cases Open Source is not ready for the other 90%. it works for me and you because we know how to find it, how to work around its issues or work through them - but come on, there are still people (lots of them) who only know about their computer what they click on in AOLs miserable software - there is a big difference between having Firefox and OpenOffice and saying you can do everything Windows does. Firefox is excellent, not question about it - OpenOffice is good (not in my opinion as good as Office though but the price difference considered OO is good). And lets not forget gaming - maybe not big to some but overall - a big part of being a desktop PC. You cannot forget this, and in this arena Linux is abysmal. Lastly, serviceability - I think Linux administration is way to hard for the average user. it isn't that it is so terribly designed or managed it is just difficult for a non expert despite the wealth of info out there with answers. If Linux administration improves over the next year the way the Linux hardware situation has then it will have made huge strides toward the average desktop.
I can agree with you there. While I don't think it's THAT difficult to administer Linux systems it is less discoverable in many ways than Windows Control Panel. It's improving though, Gnome-Control-Center is getting very close to being what most people would need.

Hardware situation is as you said, hit or miss. Without vendor support there isn't really a way around it. However with Dell selling Ubuntu machines that should improve.

And this explains why they sold more copies of Vista (20 million) in its first two months of sales than they did XP (17 million)? Must be a pretty fast coasting speed.
You have to appreciate the market forces at work here. XP is a decent enough OS that has been around for 6 years (IIRC). That means that there is/was a huge number of people who had 3-4 year old PC running XP. Since this is how long people tend to have their PC's (on average) Vista came just in time for the upgrade. People who were thinking of upgrading their PC's saw that MS came out with another version of Windows that was purdy, went out and bought new machines that had Vista preinstalled. MS IS coasting on previous market share there is no question about it. Their OS is the most familiar to the users and the deals they have in place with OEM's enable them to maintain that market Vista was basically shoved down the consumer's throat as it was impossible to purchase a PC from the big OEM's without Vista. Even then people didn't like it a whole lot as Dell decided to offer XP about a week after Vista came out.

Bothered
July 8th, 2007, 05:28 PM
NTFS is patented and developers need to reverse engineer the damn thing. What do you expect?

I don't think NTFS is patented (although I am no authority on the matter). See here: http://www.ntfs-3g.org/support.html#patent

aysiu
July 8th, 2007, 05:40 PM
I don't think NTFS is patented (although I am no authority on the matter). See here: http://www.ntfs-3g.org/support.html#patent
Semantics.

Patent or no, NTFS's details are closed off by Microsoft and so it must be reverse engineered.

I don't see why this is an issue, though. In Ubuntu, you have to install additional software (NTFS-3G (http://www.ntfs-3g.org/)) to get read/write permissions for NTFS, but you can read-only just fine. In Windows, you have to install additional software (FS-Driver (http://www.fs-driver.org/)) just to be able to recognize Ext3 partitions and read/write them.

Ubuntu is far more conducive to setting up a dual boot than Windows is. Ubuntu, in most cases, will automatically shrink the Windows partition and automatically add Windows to the boot menu. Windows never adds Ubuntu to the boot menu and doesn't offer any sophisticated partitioning tools.

The point about previewing images in Firefox is a big deal, though. Ubuntu users shouldn't have to install and use Konqueror to get such basic functionality.

saulgoode
July 8th, 2007, 06:36 PM
I don't think NTFS is patented (although I am no authority on the matter). See here: http://www.ntfs-3g.org/support.html#patent
Semantics.

It is more than semantics; if someone holds a patent on a technology then you are not permitted to implement that technology, even if you developed it independently (and even if it is for your own personal use).

For example, if your neighbor holds a patent on a device for picking up litter (perhaps a sharpened nail on the end of a broom handle), you may not build and use a similar device. It does not matter whether you market your "invention"; you are not even permitted to use it. It does not matter if you came up with the idea yourself, never having seen your neighbor's concept -- if he holds the patent then you must get a license from him to use "his" technology.

Reverse-engineering a patented technology does not make it legal -- therefore it is significant that "No NTFS patent is known in any country."

aysiu
July 8th, 2007, 06:38 PM
You're absolutely right in general.

But in this context, the point is that NTFS read/write functionality needing a separate helper application Ubuntu has to do with NTFS being proprietary and closed, not anything to do with patents.

SWBgHz
July 8th, 2007, 09:00 PM
I have to say, while some things said in here I find completely ridiculous, on balance it has been a decent conversation about the issue. In the end, I think we all know the answer, Linux is getting better and if MS continues as it has this last year with Vista then Linux is going to have its shot.

I would imagine most people here would agree with me that some core changes in Linux are necessary for it to fill the desktop role that XP has - but that changes are within reach of Linux now whereas in years past they where not.

I will also toss some red meat for ya - I almost agree with alot of what people here say about Vista. While it isn't nearly as bad as many make it out to be it is an entirely wrong release from MS. Ubuntu may well be comparable to Vista in terms of out of the box up and goingness although that is questionable. Vistas sole problem is in the cost of the improvements it offers - there is no real MAJOR improvement, no one thing Vista does that XP cannot do - but there is alot Vista cannot do (or cannot do as well) as XP due to its performance issues. Vista is just plain crap in terms of all facets of performance. If MS sorts this out (sadly SP1 won't be until next year now and that is, IMHO, a near deathnail for Vista in terms of it becoming Me II) the issues then Vista could do well. However, seeing the issues persists over a year after practical release seriously has me wondering if it is going to get sorted out.

In the mean time I am going to keep plucking away at my Ubuntu installation if for nothing else than brushing up on my rusty *nix skills. It is not entirely bad and in many ways it is great; however, I still think it is entirely to 'hardcore' for the masses of desktops out there.

Let me offer a small example of what I mena by the archaic administration - take the rather ordinary task of editing a config file and compare to doing the same in XP. In Linux you have to go to the CL and know some less than intuitive commands to get to and open the file - once open you have an editor view that is about 20 years old in terms of the way it displays and works. it is not at all intuitive or easy to use and there is just no reason for it to be that way as we all pretty much have monitors and graphics capable of displaying more than monochrome text). I am not saying I need a word processor like editor for the files but seriously, notepad is more easy to read and edit with than any of the standard Linux text editors. Compare the same type of task in XP where the user can navigate through explorer to the file (far easier when looking for something, they can even use search programs to find it - no archaic commands or syntax need be known). Once found a double click opens the file and depending on the type the worst view is a notepad type editor (possibly wordpad or maybe an XML format if Vista or newer software/hardware related). An entirely more pleasant task in XP, even in Vista, than Linux. Sure, if you know the commands, the syntax, and the paths of everything the Linux way is arguably better but most people don't and never will know that stuff. Even consider a circumstance where registry editing is needed. On balance the registry in Windows is about as complex as editing configs in Linux in terms of who can really go do it but the method is far easier in Windows. You are using a modern interface when in regedit and the display and interacting with the dataset is far superior than a terminal window editor, even than many of the upgraded editors in Linux. Flame away, I know people will argue the CL superiority all day - but I am not talking about what you and I can do I am talking about the 80% to 90% of people out there who are not us.

And just a note - yes, spyware and virus are a problem in Windows, no doubt. Security in Windows is not what it should be, no doubt. But please, enough with the Mac-ad BS about Windows being the only OS (or software) with exploitable vulnerabilities. If Macs or Linux where the in the place of all Windows they would be thrashed just as much as Windows is because the real problem is the masses of morons that have no idea what security is, and because no software is anywhere near perfect. I am preparing to be a penetration tester, prepping for my CEH, and I can tell you as I learn that it is more troublesome to crack a Linux box for sure but not something that I would say is all to hard. Put those Linux boxes in the hands of average people in average situations and walla - they become just as easy targets. XP is not at all hard to secure up appropriately for the desktop role and it requires little effort in reality. it is also worth noting on this subject that the very people flaming Windows about viruses and malware and such are the same ones, often times, screaming monopoly when MS does something about it. Norton and others cried bloody murder when MS tried to change things in Vista just like Google threated MS when they improved the search functions. Nobody gives credit for the influences these things have on how Windows is develpped - in fact, in many ways it is quite responsible for many of the flaws. Consider IE - because MS got so much pressure about browser competition they worked to integrate it more into Windows to make it a core element of the OS instead of an add on application in direct response to the lawsuits and such. As a result security issues developed. Was it the right call, I don't know - but what would you do if such issues made it possible that you wouldn't be able to ship your OS with a browser? MS isn't perfect and we all know they are sloppy - but the good enough attitude they have taken with Windows is largely responsible for the explosion of all things computer over the last decade and I for one would rather have a little work to do to sure things up than have computers still be what they used to be.

forrestcupp
July 9th, 2007, 12:00 AM
Well, you're right. There are things that need changed. But I think a lot of those things are in the process of being changed.

What you say about editing configuration files isn't entirely true. In Gnome, I use gedit to edit config files and in KDE I use kate. Both are at least as good as Notepad. The good thing about having these configuration files is that it keeps us from having the hell of a registry. It's kind of like how Windows used to have .ini files. They never should have switched.

But the only config files I really have had to mess with are xorg.conf and sources.list. Sources.list can be changed in a GUI with Synaptic or Adept. Soon with the new xorg, we will be able to adjust it with a GUI instead of editing xorg.conf.

Things are definitely going toward better usability, and they're going that way fast.

As for Vista, I used Ubuntu for a while, and switched back to XP for various reasons. I got really hyped about Vista coming out, and I got a free upgrade and tried it out. It was so bad that it drove me back to using Linux. I had an ATI all-in-wonder card that wasn't supported. When I researched it, I found out that it probably never would be supported in Vista. I had a Lexmark printer, and guess what. No drivers. I was going to have to wait at least a couple of months for drivers. I was hyped about the eye candy, and was extremely disappointed with the lack thereof. I realized that Beryl beat the pants off of Aero at a much lower hardware cost. So I came back, and I'm not looking back.

Yeah, Vista is that bad.

cobrn1
July 9th, 2007, 12:14 AM
SWBgHz, you have some interesting points...

Firstly, although I agree that some of the security problem is idiots using pcs, it's not the end of it (by any means). you can get a virus even if you are really careful with secr=urity (it's like cancer in that respect I guess - smoking (not using appropriate anti-virus, firewall, etc software) increases you chanced of getting cancer, but you can get it even if you never smoke (do use the software). Also, with a little education less of this would be happening - the very model of ubuntu security (sudo) promotes good habits... and since the security model is also generally better, I wouldn't forsee any massive increase in virii...

second, i have major sympathy with your CLI woes. I like the CLI for certain things, and recognise it as a great tool. Soon enough, new users do too. This ain't the problem. The problem is having to mess about with settings by opening up config files. It's great that they're human readable _if_ you know what you're doing, nut when you don't the windows way of always providing a GUI for these thing works far better.

It should be noted that linux is getting better for this, I know I always say this but the new Xorg should be a _major_ help to linux. And more and more GUI's are being developed, so it's a situation which is improving - hardcore users - don't moan about GUI's - remember, it's all about choice...

As you say, we all know that linux is getting better in leap and bounds, and (much like sony and the PS3) MS really dropped the ball with vista - other than DX10 for gamer (largely unused at the moment) there's no reason to upgrade, and it will damage performance compared to XP...

By core changes I would guess you mean having a GUI to configure most things, much like windows does. If you mean something else (of something in addition) then please be specific, i'd like to know. Other than more GUI configuration, I can't see much else that ubuntu needs to completely surpass/sail by windows. Xorg and compiz all have really positive effects, and market share is increasing to the point that more manufacturers are taking notice. Simply don't buy from ones that don't support linux drivers (and tell your friends to do the same - incase they want to use linux and because it shows something wrong with a company that needs punishing - punish them!)

Oh dear - this post's almost as long as yours! ;-) :-)

cobrn1
July 9th, 2007, 12:14 AM
ARGH - beaten to it!

Oh well, I can comment on what you say too!

Having the text config files is a really good thing, and not having a registery is also a great thing. It's just nice to have GUI tools to do it for you as mucking about with text files tend's to put off new users.

Like you say, any of the graphical text editiors work just as nicely as notepad (and the CLI ones work fine too - just don't use vi unless you know what you're doing ;-))

Ubuntu is fast getting to the point where it is surpassing windows in every way. Only some usability issues, drivers and professional software (including games) remain as problems. 1 is getting far better, and once it goes market share will really rise, helping with 2 and 3.

Oh, and vista _can_ be that bad. Sure, mostly it Just WorksTM, but not as much as we'd like, and unless you have a beast to run it it is a horrible experience. That said, if you really want to use all your hardware to the max then use vista. uses ~500mb ram when idle!

Beatbreaker
July 9th, 2007, 02:25 AM
I would say you were being unlucky as everythng worked for me pretty well and whereas Print drivers are concerned that ain't ubuntu but manufacturers themselves who don't supply drivers for linux distributions. Blaming ubuntu developers is just naive act which windows users usually tend to put on. Automatix2 would install NTFS read-write tool for you easily. And again Webcam support depends on manufacturer. For me Ktorrent and Bittorrent works with firefox without any scripts needed also works with swiftfox included in Automatix2. Linux is much more ready for desktops just need to recognise the way it works which is not windows.

the print drivers were supplied by the printer manafacturers for Linux - i had to go to the site and do all of that CUPS wrapper stuff - it worked no problems with i did do it, but it was frustrating becasuse there were older and newer models added to the printer wizard but not my one (and probably a hell of alot more too)

i did the Automatix2 NTFS read/write instillation and it sucessfully mounted 2 out of a possible 7 partitions that i had. it didn't use UUIDs so every few boot ups it would change and not work. I had to edit fstab to get it working 100% - i've heard that gutsy gibbon will be including -3G for NTFS support which i think is how it should be instead of having to use Automatix2 which can break your system. It'll be interesting how well it goes.

ok i understand that webcam support depends on manafacturer (with my model) but how hard would it have been to have easycam2 already installed for people wanting to easily configure their (supported) webcams?

i think with alot of hard work, and and couple of versions later, maybe in about a years time it'll be ready for an average user to take on

SWBgHz
July 9th, 2007, 02:34 AM
Rather than add alot of quoting let me acknowledge the last two posts as being well said.

On security, yes - it isn't all users but what I was getting at more than that is something like UAC in Vista. MS is so big, rather Windows is, thta anytime they have ever really tried to do something for security the run into walls with user acceptance. SO often we get odd compromises or they just do something like they did with SP2 setting some ridiculous harsh settings and then people are stuck dead in the water. Back to UAC - it isn't all that bad in so far as it is a reasoned attempt to settle the problem of a running from a normal account without having to be a tech guy to elevate privilege as needed. What happened - FLAME city - Mac commercials and people whining about more nag screens and so on. Again, not suggesting it is perfect just trying to illustrate the point that for the most part MS is damned if they do and damned if they don't allot of times.

Also, on security - much of the issues in Windows are as much third party as anything else. Nobody will argue that commercial software companies are not exactly always so great about clean code and they are very much culpable for the rampant privilege escalation issues in XP, and mostly responsible for the incompatibilities in Vista as a result of MS tightening things up. What I am getting at is XP had a system for running as non admins but that got broken early by OEMs shipping PCs with default admin accounts created even without passwords to simplify things for users and then it got further exacerbated by software vendors not reigning in the privileges thier apps run with, and where they store data.

Now, I know what you want to say - MS should have done it right and made the system so they couldn't muck it up. But this is the heart of the reality of being the platform that Windows is - they simply cannot make wholesale changes even if for the best and break compatibility - look at the hell such changes (even though for hte better) caused with SP2 and are causing with Vista. Hell, consider the age old issue of null sessions in Windows. I don't think anyone here will fault the practice 10 years+ ago of not having credetialled sessions for all operations but because of that legacy need by old software even Windows 2k3 Server (it is easily disable dif you have no legacy need for it) has to accept these, essentially, anonymous connects for many organizations or some of their core operations become non-functional.I know of a number of large organizations (5k+ users) with their entire Windows infrastructure requiring this legacy behavior to be active (it lets you connect to a machine with a blank username and password and even enumerate account names with the right tools). Is this MS's fault?

When talking about being ready for the desktop this is the realities you must face. It is relatively easy to sit on a high horse and tell people you have no business in that folder or changing that file or accessing with that privilege when you are in the single digit percentages of market deployment. But when you are on 90%+ of desktops and a certain decision to increase a security setting or redesign something in a way that breaks legacy interoperability will affect tens of thousands of users (if not million and millions) it becomes a bit more difficult. Here is Linux's greatest challenge - making the changes necessary to accommodate those larger needs without letting go of core design principles. Beneficial to Linux is the position of being in the 'build' mode after these issues have come to light, let us not forget that back when Windows took shape the face of computing was nothing like it is to day. Sure, they are the guys who should see these things coming but it is a fair analysis to say few did. Also, lets be fair - take a look here (http://www.us-cert.gov/cas/bulletins/SB2005.html) (there are other sources for the same data): Linux, Unix, OSX are not so secure either and in some cases have more issues than does Windows regardless of user stupidity.

Back for a sec to the previous posts, a couple miscellaneous responses. First, Vista - all in all vista really is not that bad, it is just that it is not all that good. Many of the changes are nice improvements, others are solid tweaks, none seem revolutionary or generation in the way that prior Windows versions clearly advanced the previous versions. In the end what makes Vista suck is how these slight, albeit worthwhile (mostly), improvements come at a cost in performance, resources, and other things that is far heavier than their benefit. I also think it was a MAJOR mistake to make Vista available in 32bit - they should have made the jump full speed to 64bit if in no other way than by making the default of Vista for distro by OEMs and such the 64bit version. DX10 is the only real big jump forward and that is still unrealized as NVIDIA and ATI are seeminly incapable of delivering proper drivers (and whose fault is that). So, Vista - on the way to becoming Milenium II - possibly, maybe even probably. At this point I would say it is heading that way and without MS righting the ship with a great SP1 it is done for. Essentially, MS has to make SP1 for Vista what SP2 was for XP and I am not believing they are going to - especially with the Justice Dept. getting all in their face over Vista's search function and forcing the delay until next year. Vista needed a solid 2007 to be on the way to taking the place of XP and I do not think it got it; but, I suppose that is another issue.

And for the record, I don't hate the CL - the thing I dislike about it is that even if you know what to do, and how - if you have any error in recolection (from it being a while or from being on differant distro or wahtever than usual) you are mostly dead in the water without outside sources. With a GUI you need the knowledge of the processes and not specific memory of the function - it is a bit of a force multiplier. CL rocks for scripting and automated processing of batch data no doubt - but it is antiquated in these days with rigs more than capable of GUI administration that allows users a bit more control without having to get tech experts involved. Just wanted to clear that up - I evaluate my opinion of the CL in Linux based on the idea of me delivering a Ubuntu rig to a customer (for example) and having an issue with them I am trying to solve over the phone - it is alot easier to say open the control panel, click printers, right click this and select that then it is to dictate obscure syntax and commands that change for each distro and always seem to have so many switches that without regular use it is hard to recall specifics.

Linux doesn't suck, it is improving - right now it is a rival for Vista as vista struggles through its issues. Linux is probably, fairly, better than XP, but XP is far less worse than Linux is difficult. XP is usable by anyone (as I mentioned akin to the Toyota Corolla) it has the capacity to do wht anyone would need, to be robust enough but flexible and usable enough. Linux is more the sports car (not meant as performance analogy) in so far as it has some issues that would limit fitting most needs for the most people. But it is getting better.

Just FYI - since the last posts I was on Ubuntu and set up Evolution to connect to my Exchange server. I was quite impressed with how easy it setup - a dufus could have done it knowing only thier username, password, and the addy of OWA. I cannot say I like it using OWA by default as for many that is unsecured but as I have SSL on my OWA I don't mind. In comparison when setting up outlook for my use use the propretary method for full security between me and the exchange server and through a bit of work I can even use it that way off domain. But the setup is far more complex than it was with Evolution - suffices to say when I needed to get my brother up in VA setup for access I had to remote desktop to him to do it for him, if he was using Evolution I could have just told him the adress for OWA nad he could have done it. That ease aside, the performance of the app was terrible. It locked up several times when changing folders and otherwise just behaved in an unstable manor. It was absolutely, just from my initial session and another after a reboot, unreliable and unusable for even a desktop user let alone a company.

So, getting better - more to do, think about where you are going because it isn't as easy being the big guy on the block, and well I suppose that is enough for now.

Beatbreaker
July 9th, 2007, 02:43 AM
NTFS is patented and developers need to reverse engineer the damn thing. What do you expect?


...i dunno dude, i'm a n00b. You guys will have to consider that the vast majoirty of users don't know what FAT32 and NTFS is at all, because i work with computers and i've built several computers before i know about alot of this stuff but average users wouldn't have a clue - they won't "expect" anything apart from that it's just supposed to work.



I find that hard to believe. I never had a problem with dual boot..


check it out: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=450329




Use Transmission or another native Linux bittorrent client. If you use uTorrent, you are on your own.

understood, i can't wait until uTorrent bring out a version for Linux (i've heard it's in the works... kinda.



Samba has gone backwards for me also. It worked in the past, but has stopped working.

i used this guide to get it working, it was very helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad17kma8rNM






Editing those three should never be necessary for normal users. There should be UI options for those. Editing xorg.conf should not be necessary anymore with Gutsy.

that's good to hear i looks forward ot seeing that.

thanks for your comments!

wog
July 9th, 2007, 04:50 AM
Well said wog, completely agree with you on that. But I still wonder why Intel didn't steal codes from MS and made their own OS to work with their hardware.

I personally think it was a combination of the perception of being in only one business at a time, and the fact that Intel saw the software business as being much more of a fiddly or unstable business than what they were doing.

wog
July 9th, 2007, 05:34 AM
And this explains why they sold more copies of Vista (20 million) in its first two months of sales than they did XP (17 million)? Must be a pretty fast coasting speed.

You can't see someone coasting on previously earned (or stolen) Market Share based on sales numbers for any given year. What you do is compare sales numbers over a period of twenty years, categorized by who buys and how many. For instance if a single company buys 10,000 copies of Windows, that isn't necessarily 10,000 end users, that's just 1. Separating out the mass purchases for businesses will tell you a great deal about who buys what OS.

Those numbers you're quoting are like how AOL claims 16 million new users per year. What they don't tell you is how 15 million (let's be charitable) quit each year before the end of the free trial period.

Go get some numbers that mean something if you're going to try to impress us all with numbers, huh? :)

wog
July 9th, 2007, 05:39 AM
That's alright. I'm just trying to separate facts from opinions. In this thread they seem pretty much mixed up. ;)

That's a big problem in these kinds of discussions. In many ways they resemble religious or nationalist arguments in how irrational people can get on both sides of the issue. Some of the old Usenet arguments about whether vi was better than emacs were also like that.

Thankfully, this place is far more polite and far less incendiary than Usenet. :)

kamaboko
July 9th, 2007, 05:44 AM
You can't see someone coasting on previously earned (or stolen) Market Share based on sales numbers for any given year. What you do is compare sales numbers over a period of twenty years, categorized by who buys and how many. For instance if a single company buys 10,000 copies of Windows, that isn't necessarily 10,000 end users, that's just 1. Separating out the mass purchases for businesses will tell you a great deal about who buys what OS.

Those numbers you're quoting are like how AOL claims 16 million new users per year. What they don't tell you is how 15 million (let's be charitable) quit each year before the end of the free trial period.

Go get some numbers that mean something if you're going to try to impress us all with numbers, huh? :)

Those numbers actually came from Apple. As for your 10,000 end users counting as one....it is very apparent to me that you know absolutely nothing about business, not to mention count.

wog
July 9th, 2007, 06:01 AM
Those numbers actually came from Apple. As for your 10,000 end users counting as one....it is very apparent to me that you know absolutely nothing about business, not to mention count.

Seems to me you didn't address anything I said other than numbers source. It's true, I'm not into Business, but that doesn't make me stupid. I know companies will buy a couple thousand copies of an OS, and I don't actually know where Apple's numbers are coming from or how they were counted. But you didn't seek to inform, only to insult or discount.

SWBgHz
July 9th, 2007, 06:06 AM
40 million as of mid-may. (http://news.com.com/Gates+40+million+Vista+copies+sold/2100-1016_3-6183890.html?tag=nefd.top)

Allow me to chime in on the Vista sold issue - those numbers are as accurate as anything we cannot count ourselves. By the end of the first quarter MS had sold more Vista licenses than there were Macs in us (est of course). They are not fraudulent but they are misleading in terms of the big company purchases.

First, MS changed their accounting in terms of assigning all license dollars for vista sales to that month - in the past (with XP for instance) the rolled the sales numbers out over the expected cycle of the license. Comparisons of Vista sales numbers to XP will be quite askew because of this.

Additionally, businesses are big time staying away from Vista at this point - almost monolithically. But they still need new machines, so they by them from Dell or whomever their hardware partner is and wallah, a Vista sale. Nobody bothers to back the sale off when they wipe Vista and install XP on it as their partner agreement allows them to install whatever they want.

Lastly, allot of those stupid Vista upgrade vouchers went out in late 2006, allot of those account for the sales numbers MS is claiming - so when you look at the claim it shows the numbers for Vista are not really good at all.

AS the one here defending Vista let me settle the argument, Vistas 2007 has not been good and it is not getting any better anytime soon from the looks of it. That being said, Vista probably (easily) sits on more desktops than anything not made by MS and while having a wounded duck for your flagship isn't exactly great having yoru last flagship still controlling 0$+ of the market doesn't suck.

Also, compare any numbers to the following figure - expected PC sales for the year should be around 260 million - 2006 was something like 240 million.

Back to the topic a bit more - I recalled this (http://blogs.csoonline.com/windows_vista_6_month_vulnerability_report) about what I was saying about Windows getting a worse rap than it deserves in terms of security - my point being security is an issue nobody can claim superiority on.

wog
July 9th, 2007, 06:32 AM
My only point about the numbers were that they could be misleading. Not knowing the study, I couldn't say for certain. I just called up the detail about AOL as an example about being careful about exactly what those numbers mean.

I find it interesting, even a little surprising, that businesses are staying away from Vista in droves. They've liked Microsoft in the past because there was a company they could yell at if something went wrong. I wonder if the lure of customization Linux presents is seducing them, or if they're just holding out with XP until something better appears?

I was kind of disappointed Dell no longer makes XP machines available, but the recent news HP is now offering Ubuntu is appealing. Then again, the only computer I'd buy from a company these days is a laptop, largely because I don't know how to make them myself. :p

wog
July 9th, 2007, 06:40 AM
Use Transmission or another native Linux bittorrent client. If you use uTorrent, you are on your own.

Actually, uTorrent already works well with wine. They seem to understand there are Linux users out there who want to use their software, and seem willing to help out.

I'm certainly happy to hear they're thinking about a native Linux version. :)

salsafyren
July 9th, 2007, 08:30 PM
I don't think NTFS is patented (although I am no authority on the matter). See here: http://www.ntfs-3g.org/support.html#patent

Sorry. I thought that NTFS was patented, but I think I confused it with FAT.

Anyway, NTFS is not documented, so one has to reverse engineer it.

salsafyren
July 9th, 2007, 08:38 PM
What I am getting at is XP had a system for running as non admins but that got broken early by OEMs shipping PCs with default admin accounts created even without passwords to simplify things for users and then it got further exacerbated by software vendors not reigning in the privileges thier apps run with, and where they store data.

This is simply not true.

XP is broken is so many ways with regards to running as non-admin. Try setting your clock, remove installed programs, stop/start services.

In Vista they went all the way and fixed all the non-admin problems. They fixed almost all of their software, so non-admins could run it too.

A lot of software has been written designed for admins and that is the responsibility of the software houses, not Microsoft.

salsafyren
July 9th, 2007, 08:58 PM
Actually, uTorrent already works well with wine. They seem to understand there are Linux users out there who want to use their software, and seem willing to help out.

I'm certainly happy to hear they're thinking about a native Linux version. :)

I'm happy that you're happy about uTorrent.

However, when I had uTorrent running on Edgy for a whole night, my computer crashed. This did not happen when I used native Linux bittorrent clients. That's why I discourage the use of uTorrent.

givupnliv
July 9th, 2007, 09:59 PM
Every single post I can find on Ubuntu is as frustrating and complicated as this operating system is itself. The geeks talk to u like you are an IT tech.My life does not revolve around my pc(nor will it ever). I build computers(as a hobby, not professionally) and I have to say: Ubuntu
compared to Microsoft is like going back 20 years in time. I can't get my printer to work, I can't watch wmv on the primitive media player, I have no sound on mpg. I can't download and install something as simple as drivers for basically anything. Open source sux. Ubuntu has not improved on anything that Windows has ever developed. I can not use this os for anything
but web browsing. The forums just send you on one wild goose chase after another. It's sad that I can walk into a computer direct or similar parts store, buy everything I need to build a
gaming comp,, put it together without even looking in a manual or going into a forum, but if I don't spend more than $200 on a Windows os, it's useless to do anything but check my email.

Ek0nomik
July 9th, 2007, 10:04 PM
Every single post I can find on Ubuntu is as frustrating and complicated as this operating system is itself. The geeks talk to u like you are an IT tech.My life does not revolve around my pc(nor will it ever). I build computers(as a hobby, not professionally) and I have to say: Ubuntu
compared to Microsoft is like going back 20 years in time. I can't get my printer to work, I can't watch wmv on the primitive media player, I have no sound on mpg. I can't download and install something as simple as drivers for basically anything. Open source sux. Ubuntu has not improved on anything that Windows has ever developed. I can not use this os for anything
but web browsing. The forums just send you on one wild goose chase after another. It's sad that I can walk into a computer direct or similar parts store, buy everything I need to build a
gaming comp,, put it together without even looking in a manual or going into a forum, but if I don't spend more than $200 on a Windows os, it's useless to do anything but check my email.

Well, I'd like to point out that Ubuntu is free of charge to you, so it isn't as if you have a huge regret sitting on your shoulders.

What kind of printer do you have? What threads have you looked at to get it to work?

WMV files can be played, but you probably need to install a codec. Windows needs codecs as well, so it isn't like you are avoiding this situation by using Windows.

What can't you install drivers for? If you want more support for drivers, talk to your hardware companies that you are buying your parts from. They are the ones who should support their product a bit better.

You can get stuff to work, you just might need to look around for a bit. Post the hardware information you are trying to get support for and perhaps I, or someone else can help you or get you in the right direction.

SWBgHz
July 9th, 2007, 10:06 PM
This is simply not true.

XP is broken is so many ways with regards to running as non-admin. Try setting your clock, remove installed programs, stop/start services.

In Vista they went all the way and fixed all the non-admin problems. They fixed almost all of their software, so non-admins could run it too.

A lot of software has been written designed for admins and that is the responsibility of the software houses, not Microsoft.

It is not broken at all - it works exactly as it was designed to work. It might not include a feature that we would like it too but then I cannot double click an executable file in Ubuntu and have it automagically ask for privilege when needed - not broken, just working as it is designed to work. The clock thing is a good example, on the service it seems a ridiculous thing that a regular user cannot change, but in reality it is a key component in system authentication so allowing a regular user to change such a setting can really break security protocols. Vista improves the situation by having a group policy object governing the issue, and I believe by default it allows a mobile user to change the time zone - but regular user outright control of the clock is a no-no in a network. As for the other thing you mention, those are all no-nos for a regular user. You have to remember that XP is deployed in huge organizations so alot of what exists in it is because of the needs of those organizations. This go back to what I have been saying in defense of Windows all along, being the big guy on the block - serving 90%+ of the market is not easy and requires alot of things be a way that otherwise they might not. It is in this arena that Linux will have to shift to escape its niche deployment.

Mind you - I am not saying XP is perfect in terms of admin and non-admin accounts, but it is functionally workable and most of the issues with it arise from third party elements that require privileges they shouldn't.

P.S. Just read an article today saying SP1 for Vista is supposed to be released as a beta mid July - that is quite a change from what had been coming out of Redmond so we shall see. What I read says the intend to get it out mid July and then finalize it for release in November to coincide with the launch of Server 2008. That could go along way to ending the stalemate businesses have in going to Vista, but a complete resolution will still require SP1 for Vista to clean up alot of problems and smooth allot of issues.

click4851
July 9th, 2007, 10:07 PM
isn't there a "EasyUbuntu" floating around out there.

bren
July 9th, 2007, 10:08 PM
I can't watch wmv on the primitive media player, I have no sound on mpg

this one is easy to sort

here are the instructions.... let us know if you have any problems....

http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty#How_to_install_Multimedia_Codecs

its not so hard once you get the hang of it....

then you realise its actually 10 yrs ahead :-)

bren

aysiu
July 9th, 2007, 10:08 PM
Since this is more of a complaint than a support question, I'm moving it to the Cafe.

P.S. If you build computers, you're more of a geek than I am.

xxchrisxx555
July 9th, 2007, 10:10 PM
you can try linux mint
it is based off ubuntu
but it has codecs for wmv and the networking is a little easier

starcraft.man
July 9th, 2007, 10:10 PM
I'd make a serious reply to this, but I don't think you started this thread with any serious intent in mind (only further confirmed with the immature "Open source sux" comment). I can only add that from a few inferences in your post, you don't seem to have been that interested in seeing the merits (and there are merits) of Ubuntu (and Linux in general) and only want something "that works" and for that I direct you to Windows (or if you don't want security concerns, OSX). To add to that, its my experience that those who go into trying Ubuntu with negative expectations or trying to pick out all the flaws, do depart and leave quickly (as you did). All that said, have a nice day.

twiceasworn
July 9th, 2007, 10:14 PM
I'd make a serious reply to this, but I don't think you started this thread with any serious intent in mind (only further confirmed with the immature "Open source sux" comment). I can only add that from a few inferences in your post, you don't seem to have been that interested in seeing the merits (and there are merits) of Ubuntu (and Linux in general) and only want something "that works" and for that I direct you to Windows (or if you don't want security concerns, OSX). To add to that, its my experience that those who go into trying Ubuntu with negative expectations or trying to pick out all the flaws, do depart and leave quickly (as you did). All that said, have a nice day.

Could not have said it better my self sir.

annda
July 9th, 2007, 10:24 PM
well, linux is not for everyone. don't force yourself into something that you don't like. if you think there may be something for you, give it time.

i bought a mac a few weeks ago to see if i like it, but i must say it's too strange for me. i can do a lot of the things i want in windows and almost anything in any linux distro, but OS X - supposedly the user-friendliest of them all - is totally unfriendly. for me, with my background. but i will give it two months or so.

but i might ditch it without regret, and you are free to ditch ubuntu. if you have specific problems, we like to help. just say what you need.

juxtaposed
July 9th, 2007, 11:20 PM
The geeks talk to u like you are an IT tech.My life does not revolve around my pc(nor will it ever). I build computers(as a hobby, not professionally

I have no idea how to build a computer and I use linux fine.


and I have to say: Ubuntu
compared to Microsoft is like going back 20 years in time.

That's nonsense, even a windows fanboy would probably know how stupid that is ;P


I can't watch wmv on the primitive media player,

Primitive? Any linux player beats windows media player easy.

Want to hear about my problems with windows? They are plenty. For starters, there are so many dependencies; DirectX, .NET, Windows installer, XP SP2, blah. Second drivers seem very poor and the ATI graphics driver is annoying to install (alot worse then the one for linux).

Then there are the little things. GTA:SA has been installing for an hour and a half now and I think it might be done soon. Sound is messed up even with the driver from the company site. Mouse moves choppy when GTA:SA is installing.

I had more problems with windows today then I did with linux in the past few weeks, or even months.


Open source sux

You suxz0rz.


Ubuntu has not improved on anything that Windows has ever developed.

Even from one version to another ubuntu improves on alot. From one version of windows to another, since 2000, little has improved.


The forums just send you on one wild goose chase after another.

The last question I asked here was solved fast and perfectly.


but if I don't spend more than $200 on a Windows os, it's useless to do anything but check my email.

I do everything except a few games on linux, don't say that.

So shut up unless you are genuinely asking for help, don't go with the "I had a problem with linux, OH NOES, DAT MEANS EVERYONE DOZ!!111!". Linux works fine for me and millions of others, much better then windows does. Don't like it? Don't use it, and don't complain! Devs work really hard and do an AMAZING job, they don't need your worthless complaining. If you have constructive critisism then say it, unless its "Linux does things the linux way and not the windows way, I wasn't expecting that, I hate it".

smoker
July 9th, 2007, 11:23 PM
Is there such a thing as Ubuntu for beginners?

get a copy of this, and give it a bit of time before you give up:
http://www.amazon.com/Ubuntu-Linux-Dummies-Computer-Tech/dp/0470125055

best of luck, whatever,

jimhaddon
July 9th, 2007, 11:26 PM
seriously, i was once like you, coming to the forums just to point out the flaws in ubuntu and linux in general, with no actual point of getting help. (see previous posts if you dont believe me)

But now I've totally reformed. I use ubuntu more than windows now, only using windows for games. It is very flexible, and you do what you like, where with bloody vista you do what Microsoft wants you to do, and nothing more.

southernman
July 9th, 2007, 11:33 PM
Every single post I can find on Ubuntu is as frustrating and complicated as this operating system is itself. The geeks talk to u like you are an IT tech.My life does not revolve around my pc(nor will it ever). I build computers(as a hobby, not professionally) and I have to say: Ubuntu
compared to Microsoft is like going back 20 years in time. I can't get my printer to work, I can't watch wmv on the primitive media player, I have no sound on mpg. I can't download and install something as simple as drivers for basically anything. Open source sux. Ubuntu has not improved on anything that Windows has ever developed. I can not use this os for anything
but web browsing. The forums just send you on one wild goose chase after another. It's sad that I can walk into a computer direct or similar parts store, buy everything I need to build a
gaming comp,, put it together without even looking in a manual or going into a forum, but if I don't spend more than $200 on a Windows os, it's useless to do anything but check my email.

Are you really a troll, or do you just like to play the part of one?

To respond to your thread title... Yes. Anything you want to know can be found on Google or the forum. If there is something that don't make sense to you (sounds like a lot of it doesn't), then by all means post your own thread and ask for help. Don't be derogatory about it... be humble. Make your thread title specific (read: "Help, can't play .wmv on Feisty"), and post as much info about your situation, as well as your computer specs.

Linux doesn't claim to be for everyone. Linux (Ubuntu specifically) doesn't claim to be a replacement for windows. It is however, an alternative! IMO, if you want to use Linux, take some of the money you save from buying another commercial OS and spend it on a book or 3.

I have to be honest with my opinion of your post. You sound like a typical Windows end user. All you want to do is turn on your computer and it just works. Well, for the most part it will work. All the while, deep in the back of these people's mind is the reoccurring thought... "I hope I don't get a virus" or "I hope Windows doesn't crash." Most of you don't even consider keeping backups as a viable option. If Windows doesn't do it for you, you can't be bothered with finding out how to do it for yourself. Most of the "you" references are a stereotype and not a reference to yourself, specifically. If you fit those categories... I can't help that!

A really absurd techy comment to make towards this thread would be to say... "RTFM." It's my opinion that most people curl up in the corner and pout when this is said to them... so I won't say it! :p

IF you can not / do not want to run Linux, then by all means don't! Stick with what works best for you... It is after all your choice. But, for the love of God, DO NOT come in here whining about not being able to do something with that which you know nothing about... and aren't willing to spend due diligence to enhancing your knowledge and solve your technical (likely to be more serious issues at hand here, which may require medication) problems.

*Nix in general is a robust, scalable, and flexible environment to work with. It's a proven fact by the 10's and 100's of thousands of government, corporate, big business, small business, developers, and every day end users that make it their OS / platform of choice.

Anything you want to learn, is available at your fingertips. It's up to you to make use of it.

sugarland2k
July 9th, 2007, 11:48 PM
If you don't like Ubuntu/Kubuntu which is rare? Try Freespire? It offers an easy interface the the best of Open source and evil locked up proprietary code as needed. I use it sometimes but I love Kubuntu and I can usually work out problems with my the most excellent forums or a net search. YMMV...

Friends don't let friends run Vista!:guitar:

stmiller
July 9th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Yeah try Xandros, Freespire, or distros like that. I think you may be experiencing problem #1, as stated here:

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 12:18 AM
... But, for the love of God, DO NOT come in here whining about not being able to do something with that which you know nothing about... and aren't willing to spend due diligence to enhancing your knowledge and solve your technical (likely to be more serious issues at hand here, which may require medication) problems.

Anything you want to learn, is available at your fingertips. It's up to you to make use of it.

Basically: Don't ask him for help.

vexorian
July 10th, 2007, 12:23 AM
Repeat with me: familiar is not friendly.

Now repeat it again; familiar is not friendly.


Edit. oh yeah, printers! As long as your printer's box said "compatible with Mac OS/X" it uses the cups interface and for that reason just going to system\printers will let the system detect it.

Something I noticed when setting my hp printer is that if the configuration is set for color printing and there is only a black and white cartridge I had to change the configuration to grayscale else it would not print.

If your printer did not have the happy face in its box, well I got no idea... Although I can't think of any serious printer company that does not do that, perhaps posting the model number and brand of the printer would help us help you.

prizrak
July 10th, 2007, 12:26 AM
It is not broken at all - it works exactly as it was designed to work. It might not include a feature that we would like it too but then I cannot double click an executable file in Ubuntu and have it automagically ask for privilege when needed - not broken, just working as it is designed to work. The clock thing is a good example, on the service it seems a ridiculous thing that a regular user cannot change, but in reality it is a key component in system authentication so allowing a regular user to change such a setting can really break security protocols. Vista improves the situation by having a group policy object governing the issue, and I believe by default it allows a mobile user to change the time zone - but regular user outright control of the clock is a no-no in a network. As for the other thing you mention, those are all no-nos for a regular user. You have to remember that XP is deployed in huge organizations so alot of what exists in it is because of the needs of those organizations. This go back to what I have been saying in defense of Windows all along, being the big guy on the block - serving 90%+ of the market is not easy and requires alot of things be a way that otherwise they might not. It is in this arena that Linux will have to shift to escape its niche deployment.

Mind you - I am not saying XP is perfect in terms of admin and non-admin accounts, but it is functionally workable and most of the issues with it arise from third party elements that require privileges they shouldn't.

P.S. Just read an article today saying SP1 for Vista is supposed to be released as a beta mid July - that is quite a change from what had been coming out of Redmond so we shall see. What I read says the intend to get it out mid July and then finalize it for release in November to coincide with the launch of Server 2008. That could go along way to ending the stalemate businesses have in going to Vista, but a complete resolution will still require SP1 for Vista to clean up alot of problems and smooth allot of issues.

I work for an organization with 10,000 employees right now. All of the XP domain accounts are set up as local admins. Same thing with my alma mater.

Windows suffers from MS's mistakes long ago with DOS, which was a single user system. All consumer Windows versions prior to XP are also single user systems. This carried over to XP because of the compatibility issues and so the ISV's kept coding like they did before and never bothered to change.

MS had a chance to change drastically change their permissions system but they failed to do so. Back when XP was coming out they could have done it right. 98 didn't really cut it, 2000 was mostly for business (even though it was my home OS) and the alternatives sucked. Linux was damn near unusable and Apple didn't even have OS X so it was overpriced AND crappy (as opposed to just being overpriced now).

Also XP's Run As... is completely broken, you cannot install updates via Run As..., you have to switch users. That's a horrible and completely unusable implementation, even UAC is better.

MS was too slow to adapt to a changing world and that is why Vista sux so bad.

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 12:32 AM
familiar is not friendly.

It certainly factors in, denying it doesn't help anything.

vexorian
July 10th, 2007, 12:36 AM
I find it rather... disturbing that the guy on the first post did not have any "beans", that means he actually never tried asking for help, thus I guess he was asking for "Is there such a thing as Ubuntu for people that don't like learning?"



It certainly factors in, denying it doesn't help anything.
Denying that "familiar is not friendly" doesn't help. Those are 2 totally opposite concepts, one relies in which "If we always do the same , the dumb user will not get confused" and the other one relies on "let's try doing it in a way that is intuitive", one promotes pattern matching, the other promotes actual intelligence.

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 12:49 AM
I find it rather... disturbing that the guy on the first post did not have any "beans", that means he actually never tried asking for help, thus I guess he was asking for "Is there such a thing as Ubuntu for people that don't like learning?".

Maybe he just registered.


Denying that "familiar is not friendly" doesn't help. Those are 2 totally opposite concepts, one relies in which "If we always do the same , the dumb user will not get confused" and the other one relies on "let's try doing it in a way that is intuitive", one promotes pattern matching, the other promotes actual intelligence.

First of all: the opposite of familiar is unfamiliar and the opposite of friendly is unfriendly. Second of all: familiar is not independent of friendly. Third of all: don't exspect people to draw the line where you want.

Frak
July 10th, 2007, 01:09 AM
Of course, I think we all remember 95/98/98SE/ME Cancel button on the login screen.

Bothered
July 10th, 2007, 01:14 AM
I remember how surprised I was by that after using Windows 98 for years :shock:

ihatethedekoys
July 10th, 2007, 01:39 AM
Don't you guys realize he made this thread after trying Ubuntu for 20 minutes and then uninstalling it?

He doesn't care if you can help him or not, he probably will never come back to these forums.

Somebody probably said ubuntu works 100% out of the box, and he tried to play a media file, and it didn't work, so it was only 99% working, and that wasn't good enough for him. Oh, no printer driver installed by default? 98%.

A completley free OS that works 98% out of the box (and 100% if you actually look for help) isn't good enough for this guy.

Oh well, some people you just can't please.

BTW, ALL open source "sux" because this guy couldn't figure out how to enable the restricted codecs. Wow. Why even waste our time on this troll.

Tomosaur
July 10th, 2007, 01:40 AM
Maybe he just registered.



First of all: the opposite of familiar is unfamiliar and the opposite of friendly is unfriendly. Second of all: familiar is not independent of friendly. Third of all: don't exspect people to draw the line where you want.

Except that familiar does not mean friendly, as attested to by the thousands of people murdered by members of their own family, and also Hitler, who is familiar to most, but certainly not friendly.

It is an illusion to say that familiarity = friendliness. It doesn't actually factor in at all. What if your bed is a hard, boiling hot floor of metal? It may be familiar to you, if you use it every night, but does that mean that it's friendly? Of course not. In the same way, a dog may wander up to you which you've never seen before in your life, but it doesn't mean it will bite you, and may well want to play with you, ergo, it is friendly. The two are unrelated, and only seem to be related at all because the things we are naturally drawn towards, and which thus become familiar to us, are the things which we believe to be 'friendly'.

southernman
July 10th, 2007, 01:45 AM
Basically: Don't ask him for help.
You either can't read, or don't understand what you do read!

When I have time and understanding of a problem at hand, I'll pitch in to help!

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 01:47 AM
It doesn't actually factor in at all.

You're an idiot.

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 01:52 AM
You either can't read, or don't understand what you do read!

When I have time and understanding of a problem at hand, I'll pitch in to help!

You just told him that he effectively knows everything.

init1
July 10th, 2007, 01:53 AM
Every single post I can find on Ubuntu is as frustrating and complicated as this operating system is itself. The geeks talk to u like you are an IT tech.My life does not revolve around my pc(nor will it ever). I build computers(as a hobby, not professionally) and I have to say: Ubuntu
compared to Microsoft is like going back 20 years in time. I can't get my printer to work, I can't watch wmv on the primitive media player, I have no sound on mpg. I can't download and install something as simple as drivers for basically anything. Open source sux. Ubuntu has not improved on anything that Windows has ever developed. I can not use this os for anything
but web browsing. The forums just send you on one wild goose chase after another. It's sad that I can walk into a computer direct or similar parts store, buy everything I need to build a
gaming comp,, put it together without even looking in a manual or going into a forum, but if I don't spend more than $200 on a Windows os, it's useless to do anything but check my email.

So? There are plenty of distros that don't work on my computer. I don't complain about it, I just try another. As for the difficulty, either you get or you don't. Some simply are not capable of using Linux.

Ubuntu has not improved on anything that Windows has ever developed.
Yes, Ubuntu is WAY faster than Windows. And more secure. And can be run on a USB drive.

HermanAB
July 10th, 2007, 01:53 AM
Yes there is. Buy a Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed and stop moaning.

init1
July 10th, 2007, 01:56 AM
Even from one version to another ubuntu improves on alot. From one version of windows to another, since 2000, little has improved.


From one version of windows to another, the bloat has increased. I don't want bloat. So have the security flaws.

southernman
July 10th, 2007, 02:01 AM
You just told him that he effectively knows everything.See my last post to you!

For the irony, go here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2985896#post2985896
Where you brilliantly offer your wisdom and encouragement of:


It's not hard but, if your asking those kind of questions its probably not worth your time.

You need to get outside or do something useful besides trolling.

Troll all you like, I'll join the others admiring how much of a saint you are.

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 02:08 AM
See my last post to you!

For the irony, go here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2985896#post2985896
Where you brilliantly offer your wisdom and encouragement of:



You need to get outside or do something useful besides trolling.

Troll all you like, I'll join the others admiring how much of a saint you are.
:-s
you're strange

SWBgHz
July 10th, 2007, 02:13 AM
No doubt Windows, and MS, have and have had issues - but on balance I think XP w/SP 2 is pretty good - at least in so far as being good enough to fit that 90$=. Many of the changes that you or I would make would substantially crack away at that 90%+ deployment.

Tomosaur
July 10th, 2007, 02:57 AM
You're an idiot.

Hello irony.

givupnliv
July 10th, 2007, 02:57 AM
Don't you guys realize he made this thread after trying Ubuntu for 20 minutes and then uninstalling it?

He doesn't care if you can help him or not, he probably will never come back to these forums.

Somebody probably said ubuntu works 100% out of the box, and he tried to play a media file, and it didn't work, so it was only 99% working, and that wasn't good enough for him. Oh, no printer driver installed by default? 98%.

A completley free OS that works 98% out of the box (and 100% if you actually look for help) isn't good enough for this guy.

Oh well, some people you just can't please.

BTW, ALL open source "sux" because this guy couldn't figure out how to enable the restricted codecs. Wow. Why even waste our time on this troll.


Wrong, I spent six days trying to get my 3 month old printer to work on this os. I loaded the driver cd, it's on the desktop. It still doesn't work. I have spent way more time on forums and manufacturer websites with absolute failure than I ever spent on Windows. Windows was easy to figure out. You put a driver cd in the drive, follow the prompts, reboot, done.Same thing with all devices, peripherals. I can't even get AIM to work on this ********, I have to take a class. Anytime you set out to improve on something, you don't erase or destroy all of the positive aspects trying to better the negative. Only a troll could believe that Linux is superior to Windows. I want a better os than anything that Microsoft has developed, problem#1 is that there isn't one. I never read a book or took a class to figure out Windows(98,ME, or XP) I just got Vista and I'm putting it on a new PC that I built myself in less than 2 hours from the ground up..I didn't read a book, or log onto any forum. And I'll bet you 10 operating systems that I don't have half the aggrivation ever with Vista that I continue to have with Daffy Duck er Dapper Drake. I can't figure out ubuntu in a week? It should not be this complicated to install drivers or watch a video someone emailed me in an attachment? Who cares if it's free. The most accurate saying I ever heard was "You get what you pay for". Linux Sux.

smartboyathome
July 10th, 2007, 03:14 AM
You're an idiot.

Don't pay attention to him. He probably purposly started this thread to make everyone fight, and it is working. So I suggest this topic be locked or removed.

Tomosaur
July 10th, 2007, 03:16 AM
Wrong, I spent six days trying to get my 3 month old printer to work on this os. I loaded the driver cd, it's on the desktop. It still doesn't work. I have spent way more time on forums and manufacturer websites with absolute failure than I ever spent on Windows. Windows was easy to figure out. You put a driver cd in the drive, follow the prompts, reboot, done.Same thing with all devices, peripherals. I can't even get AIM to work on this ********, I have to take a class. Anytime you set out to improve on something, you don't erase or destroy all of the positive aspects trying to better the negative. Only a troll could believe that Linux is superior to Windows. I want a better os than anything that Microsoft has developed, problem#1 is that there isn't one. I never read a book or took a class to figure out Windows(98,ME, or XP) I just got Vista and I'm putting it on a new PC that I built myself in less than 2 hours from the ground up..I didn't read a book, or log onto any forum. And I'll bet you 10 operating systems that I don't have half the aggrivation ever with Vista that I continue to have with Daffy Duck er Dapper Drake. I can't figure out ubuntu in a week? It should not be this complicated to install drivers or watch a video someone emailed me in an attachment? Who cares if it's free. The most accurate saying I ever heard was "You get what you pay for". Linux Sux.

Get off my internets! (It uses Linux).

Seriously though, if you're not prepared to set brain to 'engage', then why would you think you could learn something totally alien to you? You are used to Windows, having used it, apparently, since Win98, and expect things to work the same way. The first time you ever used Windows, you had to learn all of the things you now take for granted. The short and simple answer is that you don't install drivers in Linux the same way you do in Windows. Driver CDs are more or less completely alien to us. If something doesn't work straight away, many Linux users would consider it not worth bothering with at all. Those that wish to perservere will check the repositories to see if drivers are available before giving up. The few who continue after this accept that the hardware is an unpopular piece of garbage and hope someone has made their own driver for it. Linux is in the unique position that it supports the stuff people want, not the stuff manufacturers want to thrust onto you. The ONLY reason there are drivers available for your hardware on Windows is that the manufacturer wants to sell their product to Windows users. It doesn't work this way in Linux. We find hardware we want, and make it work. Sometimes the manufacturers don't want to play nice, and won't let us make drivers, in which case we move on to a friendlier manufacturer with better hardware. If your driver CD does in fact include Linux drivers, then perhaps you could just give us the details so we can help you out?

As for .wmv videos - they do work, I'm not sure why you're having trouble, but I can watch .wmv videos with no problems. I don't tend to, however, because .wmv is a terrible format and is proprietary, so I am not legally allowed to do whatever I feel like with it. Part of the idea behind using Linux is that you stop accepting restrictions and be free to do what you please. Not everyone subscribes to this philosophy, but it's certainly something to think about. The vast majority of your perceived problems with Linux stem from the fact that:

a) It is not a replacement for Windows, it is an alternative. Windows is a train, Linux is a car. The two are different in many, many respects, and only related in that they allow you to go from A to B.

b) Restrictive licensing on Windows related stuff make it legally impossible for Linux developers to provide the most user-friendly experience you'll ever have. It's not that Linux 'doesn't support' various hardware (it actually supports much more hardware than Windows, and while Windows needs extra setting up to use new hardware, most hardware in Linux works out of the box), it's that the problematic hardware is usually legally incompatible with Linux.

At the end of the day, nobody is putting a gun to your head. Try again if you want to, leave if you don't :)

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 03:29 AM
Hello irony.

That wouldn't be ironic.


Don't pay attention to him. He probably purposly started this thread to make everyone fight, and it is working. So I suggest this topic be locked or removed.

WTF?

stepan2
July 10th, 2007, 03:32 AM
wtf i think this guy doesn't realize that windows has different formats then linux. He probably put in a driver cd with a setup that is an exe file and can't start it up.... Also if you want to run wmv file , go to applications , add/remove programs search ubuntu restricted extras and download it

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 03:38 AM
wtf i think this guy doesn't realize that windows has different formats then linux. He probably put in a driver cd with a setup that is an exe file and can't start it up.... Also if you want to run wmv file , go to applications , add/remove programs search ubuntu restricted extras and download it

probably

southernman
July 10th, 2007, 03:43 AM
Wrong, I spent six days trying to get my 3 month old printer to work on this os. I loaded the driver cd, it's on the desktop. It still doesn't work. I have spent way more time on forums and manufacturer websites with absolute failure than I ever spent on Windows. Windows was easy to figure out. You put a driver cd in the drive, follow the prompts, reboot, done.Same thing with all devices, peripherals. I can't even get AIM to work on this ********, I have to take a class. Anytime you set out to improve on something, you don't erase or destroy all of the positive aspects trying to better the negative. Only a troll could believe that Linux is superior to Windows. I want a better os than anything that Microsoft has developed, problem#1 is that there isn't one. I never read a book or took a class to figure out Windows(98,ME, or XP) I just got Vista and I'm putting it on a new PC that I built myself in less than 2 hours from the ground up..I didn't read a book, or log onto any forum. And I'll bet you 10 operating systems that I don't have half the aggrivation ever with Vista that I continue to have with Daffy Duck er Dapper Drake. I can't figure out ubuntu in a week? It should not be this complicated to install drivers or watch a video someone emailed me in an attachment? Who cares if it's free. The most accurate saying I ever heard was "You get what you pay for". Linux Sux.

As for Microsoft development: They haven't developed anything from the ground up. The netscape/ie fiasco (back stabbing) is a prime example. If you want to pay 100 bucks or more, for an "update from xp" to get the larger than life (read hunk of junk pilled on garabage code) vista. Please do so. Why on earth, should anyone need 2GB of ram or a usb stick to use as a page file, if their code is all that.

:popcorn:

stepan2
July 10th, 2007, 03:50 AM
Since i hate letting potential users go , i will explain it to him. givupnliv, You see , windows has different formats then linux has. For example , you can't run .exe files with linux. Ofcaurse , being the cunning community that we are . we have made it possible for you to run select programs with software called wine . You can google it to check it out. You're driver cd did not work because it is only supported for windows. If you could give us the name and model of your printer , we are sure we can quickly help you out with no goose chacing involved . With linux , someone already has goose chaced and has found your problem! On playing wmv files , the reason ubuntu can't play it out of the box is because it is a restricted format. You can quickly go into add/remove programs and install it by search for ubuntu restricted extras. This brings me to another point . Most software that you might ever need can be installed instantly with add/remove programs in applications. There are more then 10 000 free programs ready to install. You can try search for example dvd ripper and find dyne::bolyic . But , that doesn't work all the time so you can just google for a program for linux , such as burning tool for linux , and it will give you names , usually they are in the add/remove programs. Also , if you cannot fix your printer problem by yourself , simply google your printers name and add the word ubuntu or linux to it (ubuntu is the preffered choice)

starcraft.man
July 10th, 2007, 04:26 AM
I can't believe this thread is still going. Seems to continuing because of a certain poster who likes to pick fights with everyone in it. Way to go everyone here proving you have so much time to waste after I on the first page pointed out how ridiculous this all was and the utter lack of seriousness of the OP.

Ok, let me make this crystal clear. I was trying not to get involved but your post just annoys me. I will thusly address all the points in it. Additionally, I see not one post in your history asking this community for any help on the matter (any of your issues). In fact the only post you made outside of this thread was a flame to the beginner team who I might add work extra hard to help beginners (I am newly made a member of this team). Had you bothered to read the front page of the site, the first board is titled "Absolute Beginner" and it's description is: The perfect starting place to find out more about computers, Linux and Ubuntu. That is where you should have posted your questions, not a flame in the cafe.


Wrong, I spent six days trying to get my 3 month old printer to work on this os. I loaded the driver cd, it's on the desktop. It still doesn't work. I have spent way more time on forums and manufacturer websites with absolute failure than I ever spent on Windows. Windows was easy to figure out. You put a driver cd in the drive, follow the prompts, reboot, done.Same thing with all devices, peripherals.

All of this is the manufacturer's fault. It's a very simple world we live in. You buy hardware X and pay the manufacturer to write drivers and make sure it works on your OS of choice (they of course can choose not to support Linux, Mac or any other OS. That's what is called "Buyer BEWARE!"). If the driver works badly/poorly, who do you blame? The manufacturer (not Windows). So, now here you are, your hardware doesn't work and instead of blaming the manufacturer (who is paid to create drivers) and getting mad at them, you are flaming Linux. Hardware works with Linux, you simply have to buy from Companies that don't give open source the middle finger (some actually release linux drivers).

I might add that if you were trying to install a Windows driver in Linux, the problem is that said driver is completely incompatible with Linux. No Windows programs run natively on Linux, neither do they run on the Mac or Unix.


I can't even get AIM to work on this *****, I have to take a class.

AIM works perfectly the times I've used it. Open up GAIM in the Applications menu and then load your profile in it.


Anytime you set out to improve on something, you don't erase or destroy all of the positive aspects trying to better the negative.

I can't disagree.


Only a troll could believe that Linux is superior to Windows.

Only a troll would use such slanderous/uninformed language (in this post and first) in order to get a reaction from the VOLUNTEERS on this forum who dedicate their SPARE time to answering questions.


I want a better os than anything that Microsoft has developed, problem#1 is that there isn't one.

This is your opinion, clearly you've never used a Mac running OSX. I guess if you refuse to try any other operating system then Windows has to be the best, since it's the only one you know.


I never read a book or took a class to figure out Windows(98,ME, or XP)

Right, and you learned through experience from trial and error. Things did not just work through those 10+ years, especially 98 and worst of all ME. Your either in denial, or blinded by some interest in flaming Linux. I am a 15 year Windows veteran, I date back to DOS 4.x and I was and still am a power user. I've had numerous frustration and issues, not to mention BSoDs, and I knew what I was doing as well, very well. Some even happened when I installed drivers for things (especially my graphics card, happened quite a few times). I was patient, got on the manufacturers case (or in most cases waited) and it worked later. I didn't flame Microsoft or their support forums for getting any BSoDs, thats immature.


I just got Vista and I'm putting it on a new PC that I built myself in less than 2 hours from the ground up..I didn't read a book, or log onto any forum. And I'll bet you 10 operating systems that I don't have half the aggrivation ever with Vista that I continue to have with Daffy Duck er Dapper Drake.

Good luck with that. From everything I've heard it has horrible driver support for anything older than 2 years in the hardware world.


I can't figure out ubuntu in a week?

Never in that week did you ask for OUR help. On that point alone, its not our fault that you failed miserably. If I plopped someone down in front of Unix, Solaris or OSX they'd be equally lost. Had you asked for help here, you may have improved your results.


It should not be this complicated to install drivers or watch a video someone emailed me in an attachment?

You clearly did not look hard. VLC (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/) is available on all versions of Linux and Ubuntu. It plays every format save Real. (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/features.html) Therefore, by installing it or asking us how to install it and then doing so, you would have been able to watch that clip easily. Oh and there are codecs for playing all videos in the repositories as well, another option to solve that issue.


Who cares if it's free. The most accurate saying I ever heard was "You get what you pay for". Linux Sux.

A completely ignorant statement. Do you use Firefox by any chance? Or VLC? Or OpenOffice? Or Azureus? Or any other free software? Did you pay for any of those? And yet you were delivered a quality product. Your logic is flawed, and you seem to me at least to be very narrow minded.

Through your own doing, you managed to spend 6 days (doing I do not know what) and then once frustration had built to boiling because you did not understand at all how to use the OS, you came here (to the Ubuntu Forums) and figured that you would flame the VOLUNTEERS (can't state that enough) who help people and code the OS without a lick of care for anyone else. You sabotaged yourself, do not take it out on us or Linux.

In closing, please leave. If you don't care for Ubuntu, and don't want to add anything constructive (like criticism on what was wrong to improve, in a civil manner) or accept our help and learn the OS, there isn't a reason for you to be here. I won't be responding again, I don't even know why I did this time. I am surprised this hasn't been locked yet...

Adieu.

~LoKe
July 10th, 2007, 04:27 AM
I should note that I had an easier time installing codecs in Ubuntu than I had in Windows. I spent a lot of time downloading random codecs hoping they would work until they finally did. Let's not forget that even small application installations take system restarts for them to work properly.

I can't bear to think about how hard it is to find a decent program when using Windows. I have to resort to Google to find possibly infected or otherwise useless programs, until I find one that works. In linux, I have repositories that guarantee clean and working programs.

Every time I try to think of a reason to go back to Windows I remember all the problems I've had. Sure, Linux (or simply Ubuntu) takes some time to get used to (I mean, it's a complete shock to have a completely different operating system), but once you do familiarize yourself, it's limitless. You didn't just boot up Windows for the first time and know what to do. Good things take time.

And hey, it's free. If you don't like it, why not go back to Windows? If you don't want to spend the time to learn all the incredible features offered by Ubuntu, then why even use it at all?

The whole point is that you have a choice. It's not for everyone, but I'm sure as hell glad it's here for me.

stepan2
July 10th, 2007, 04:29 AM
I agree with you mostly but it is undeniable that a user of linux will search google more then a windows user. Windows is so crappy people have gotten used to it . They don't search for alternatives since they dont believe there are any.

~LoKe
July 10th, 2007, 04:34 AM
I agree with you mostly but it is undeniable that a user of linux will search google more then a windows user. Windows is so crappy people have gotten used to it . They don't search for alternatives since they dont believe there are any.

I rarely search google anymore. I just come here. Or, I search google with "Ubuntuforums, problem in question".

stepan2
July 10th, 2007, 04:36 AM
regardless , you still search. ofcourse i presume that before making a post you search for another post asking the same question?

wolfen69
July 10th, 2007, 04:41 AM
am i the only person in the world that learned the basics of ubuntu in 2 days? i had everything running perfect. and im no genius. just used good common sense, and a little digging for answers. losers like the OP shouldnt be allowed near ANY computer.=D>

aysiu
July 10th, 2007, 04:42 AM
I've merged this with the desktop readiness thread, since it's pretty much the same stuff that's been covered in this thread hundreds of times.

starcraft.man
July 10th, 2007, 04:44 AM
am i the only person in the world that learned the basics of ubuntu in 2 days? i had everything running perfect. and im no genius. just used good common sense, and a little digging for answers. losers like the OP shouldnt be allowed near ANY computer.=D>

I equally had my computer up and running in 2-3 days with most my hardware working. I don't think its an anomaly. It just seems we hear a lot of nasty notes from people who have everything go wrong, and so few wonderful thank yous from people who have everything go right. It's only perception.

givupnliv
July 10th, 2007, 04:45 AM
As for add/remove progs, this is what I get:

Failed to check for installed and available applications

This is a major failure of your software management system. Check the file permissions and correctness of the file '/etc/apt/sources.list' and reload the software information: 'sudo apt-get update'.

That may as well be written in chinese.


Here's another error:

Could not download all repository indexes

The repository might be no longer available or could not be contacted because of network problems. If available an older version of the failed index will be used. Otherwise the repository will be ignored. Check your network connection and the correct writing of the repository address in the preferences.

And yet another:

E: Type 'ftp://ftp.videolan.org/pub/videolan/ubuntu' is not known on line 34 in source list /etc/apt/sources.list
E: Unable to lock the list directory

And nobody's advice works. When people start responding to these issues, they just become part of the problem.

When I go to AIM to the LINUX download, here is the entire install instructions:


Installation Instructions for TGZ (All other OS)
1. Log in as root.
2. cd /
3. Download AIM onto your system.
4. On the command line, type gunzip command as shown in the example: gunzip -c aim-1.5.286.tgz | tar xvf -, where 1.5.286 represents the AIM version and release numbers.
5. To run AIM, log in as a regular user, and type "/usr/local/bin/aim" on the command line.

After about an hour I found out what 'log in as root' meant.
The second part; cd / I don't have a clue exactly precisely what I am suppose to do there.
There is no instruction for that part and the rest for that matter.

You see, there are no instructions for beginners. That has been my point all along. This is not the sort of thing that the average windows only user would figure out without alot of error codes popping up.
I just believe that it's going to take alot more time to learn this ridiculous system than I'm willing to invest. And I can not see the prize at the end of the Ubuntu rope.

Vista can not be this complicated. I just don't have the time for this.

bread eyes
July 10th, 2007, 04:47 AM
am i the only person in the world that learned the basics of ubuntu in 2 days?

Nope, it didn't even take me that long.


losers like the OP shouldn't be allowed near ANY computer.=D>
that's just mean

givupnliv
July 10th, 2007, 04:54 AM
Since i hate letting potential users go , i will explain it to him. givupnliv, You see , windows has different formats then linux has. For example , you can't run .exe files with linux. Ofcaurse , being the cunning community that we are . we have made it possible for you to run select programs with software called wine . You can google it to check it out. You're driver cd did not work because it is only supported for windows. If you could give us the name and model of your printer , we are sure we can quickly help you out with no goose chacing involved . With linux , someone already has goose chaced and has found your problem! On playing wmv files , the reason ubuntu can't play it out of the box is because it is a restricted format. You can quickly go into add/remove programs and install it by search for ubuntu restricted extras. This brings me to another point . Most software that you might ever need can be installed instantly with add/remove programs in applications. There are more then 10 000 free programs ready to install. You can try search for example dvd ripper and find dyne::bolyic . But , that doesn't work all the time so you can just google for a program for linux , such as burning tool for linux , and it will give you names , usually they are in the add/remove programs. Also , if you cannot fix your printer problem by yourself , simply google your printers name and add the word ubuntu or linux to it (ubuntu is the preffered choice)

As for add/remove progs, this is what I get:

Failed to check for installed and available applications

This is a major failure of your software management system. Check the file permissions and correctness of the file '/etc/apt/sources.list' and reload the software information: 'sudo apt-get update'.

That may as well be written in chinese.


Here's another error:

Could not download all repository indexes

The repository might be no longer available or could not be contacted because of network problems. If available an older version of the failed index will be used. Otherwise the repository will be ignored. Check your network connection and the correct writing of the repository address in the preferences.

And yet another:

E: Type 'ftp://ftp.videolan.org/pub/videolan/ubuntu' is not known on line 34 in source list /etc/apt/sources.list
E: Unable to lock the list directory

And nobody's advice works. When people start responding to these issues, they just become part of the problem.

When I go to AIM to the LINUX download, here is the entire install instructions:


Installation Instructions for TGZ (All other OS)
1. Log in as root.
2. cd /
3. Download AIM onto your system.
4. On the command line, type gunzip command as shown in the example: gunzip -c aim-1.5.286.tgz | tar xvf -, where 1.5.286 represents the AIM version and release numbers.
5. To run AIM, log in as a regular user, and type "/usr/local/bin/aim" on the command line.

After about an hour I found out what 'log in as root' meant.
The second part; cd / I don't have a clue exactly precisely what I am suppose to do there.
There is no instruction for that part and the rest for that matter.

You see, there are no instructions for beginners. That has been my point all along. This is not the sort of thing that the average windows only user would figure out without alot of error codes popping up.
I just believe that it's going to take alot more time to learn this ridiculous system than I'm willing to invest. And I can not see the prize at the end of the Ubuntu rope.

Vista can not be this complicated. I just don't have the time for this.

starcraft.man
July 10th, 2007, 04:54 AM
You see, there are no instructions for beginners. That has been my point all along. This is not the sort of thing that the average windows only user would figure out without alot of error codes popping up.
I just believe that it's going to take alot more time to learn this ridiculous system than I'm willing to invest. And I can not see the prize at the end of the Ubuntu rope.


For understanding terminal: Linux Command (http://www.linuxcommand.org/)
For understanding common things: Ubuntu Guide (http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty), Psychocats (http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/), Ubuntu Geek. (http://www.ubuntugeek.com/)
For finding apps you like: Linux App Finder (http://linuxappfinder.com/)
GRUB and bootloader info, well as other things. (http://users.bigpond.net.au/hermanzone/)
More specialized topics at the Wiki. (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/)
For anything not covered. (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=73)

Those are just the guides for beginners I have off hand.

As for all those errors, posting them all together in one post is useless (nor do you give context to them, i.e. how you got them), especially now that you have made it clear you don't care for learning Linux. Had you asked for my (or anyone) else's help 6 days ago or any time before your first post, I/they would have helped. As it is, looks like you may have seriously damaged your installer (Aptitude, may alternately be a seriously messed up sources list but can't be sure without further stuff) and if you've done something serious to it, best way (since you give no other info) is a reinstall.


Vista can not be this complicated. I just don't have the time for this.

Then why are you still posting here? If you have no desire, time or patience/will to learn a different OS, then don't. Using Linux should be a choice you make, and you can equally choose to use Windows.

Frak
July 10th, 2007, 05:32 AM
Wrong, I spent six days trying to get my 3 month old printer to work on this os. I loaded the driver cd, it's on the desktop. It still doesn't work. I have spent way more time on forums and manufacturer websites with absolute failure than I ever spent on Windows. Windows was easy to figure out. You put a driver cd in the drive, follow the prompts, reboot, done.Same thing with all devices, peripherals. I can't even get AIM to work on this ********, I have to take a class. Anytime you set out to improve on something, you don't erase or destroy all of the positive aspects trying to better the negative. Only a troll could believe that Linux is superior to Windows. I want a better os than anything that Microsoft has developed, problem#1 is that there isn't one. I never read a book or took a class to figure out Windows(98,ME, or XP) I just got Vista and I'm putting it on a new PC that I built myself in less than 2 hours from the ground up..I didn't read a book, or log onto any forum. And I'll bet you 10 operating systems that I don't have half the aggrivation ever with Vista that I continue to have with Daffy Duck er Dapper Drake. I can't figure out ubuntu in a week? It should not be this complicated to install drivers or watch a video someone emailed me in an attachment? Who cares if it's free. The most accurate saying I ever heard was "You get what you pay for". Linux Sux.
Some printers don't work in Linux.
And popping in a driver CD never works in Linux, you must either configure it with CUPS, download the driver via synaptic or Automatix2, or download the RPM and install it via Alien.
Canon's won't work, and will possibly never work without commercial/proprietary intervention such as rocketprint.

mdsmedia
July 10th, 2007, 06:14 AM
Wrong, I spent six days trying to get my 3 month old printer to work on this os. I loaded the driver cd, it's on the desktop. It still doesn't work. I have spent way more time on forums and manufacturer websites with absolute failure than I ever spent on Windows. Windows was easy to figure out. You put a driver cd in the drive, follow the prompts, reboot, done.Same thing with all devices, peripherals. I can't even get AIM to work on this ********, I have to take a class. Anytime you set out to improve on something, you don't erase or destroy all of the positive aspects trying to better the negative. Only a troll could believe that Linux is superior to Windows. I want a better os than anything that Microsoft has developed, problem#1 is that there isn't one. I never read a book or took a class to figure out Windows(98,ME, or XP) I just got Vista and I'm putting it on a new PC that I built myself in less than 2 hours from the ground up..I didn't read a book, or log onto any forum. And I'll bet you 10 operating systems that I don't have half the aggrivation ever with Vista that I continue to have with Daffy Duck er Dapper Drake. I can't figure out ubuntu in a week? It should not be this complicated to install drivers or watch a video someone emailed me in an attachment? Who cares if it's free. The most accurate saying I ever heard was "You get what you pay for". Linux Sux.Well without trying to belittle you, and I'm really not, I just want to relay my experiences in installing and running Linux.

I'm not a techie. I'm an accountant and I've used Windows (and DOS before that) since 3.1.

In October 2005 I decided I'd had enough of XP. It had slowed almost to a halt and was leaking about 80% of RAM in idle mode. I'd tried RedHat about 5 years earlier and although I managed to connect to the internet, that was all I managed to do.

I'd heard of this Ubuntu thing, and I had a LiveCD from a computer magazine, so I loaded the LiveCD, played on it for a few hours, mostly just chatting in XChat, and liked it, so I found instructions on dual-booting, installed Ubuntu, had some fun with partitioning, but that was the end of the misery. It's been my main OS ever since.

I've never even dared to build a PC, so you must be more tech minded than me. Therefore, if I can use it, so can you. If you have an open mind.

The fact that you tried loading drivers from the CD indicates the research you didn't do. They are WINDOWS drivers.

As for getting AIM to work, once again, it's a WINDOWS program!! Don't expect Windows based software to run on Linux. Just as you can't expect Linux based software to run in Windows.

It's not Linux that "sux". It's your ability to come at a new OS with an open mind, and not expect it to just be a free version of Windows.

Linux isn't the problem here.

Frak
July 10th, 2007, 06:45 AM
Wrong, I spent six days trying to get my 3 month old printer to work on this os. I loaded the driver cd, it's on the desktop. It still doesn't work.

Again, as above, wrong drivers


I have spent way more time on forums and manufacturer websites with absolute failure than I ever spent on Windows. Windows was easy to figure out. You put a driver cd in the drive, follow the prompts, reboot, done.Same thing with all devices, peripherals.

Linux is NOT a free Windows


I can't even get AIM to work on this bulls**t

Mind your tongue! Plus GAIM is the alternative.


I have to take a class. Anytime you set out to improve on something, you don't erase or destroy all of the positive aspects trying to better the negative.

Your absolutely right, but what does this have to do with GNU/Linux?


Only a troll could believe that Linux is superior to Windows.

Oh the Irony!


I want a better os than anything that Microsoft has developed, problem#1 is that there isn't one.

Thats just your opinion, as I think GNU/Linux and Apple MacOSX are Superior


I never read a book or took a class to figure out Windows(98,ME, or XP) I just got Vista and I'm putting it on a new PC that I built myself in less than 2 hours from the ground up..I didn't read a book, or log onto any forum.

You've also used Windows your entire life. Ubuntu for what, 5 minutes apparently?


And I'll bet you 10 operating systems that I don't have half the aggravation ever with Vista that I continue to have with Daffy Duck er Dapper Drake.

Good for you! :) That makes one of us!
Plus I've never used Daffy Drake,
Due tell...


I can't figure out ubuntu in a week?

Then take 2 or 3 weeks, patience is a virtue.


It should not be this complicated to install drivers or watch a video someone emailed me in an attachment?

Drivers - Synaptic or Automatix2 depending on the drivers needed
Video - VLC with proprietary codecs


Who cares if it's free.

I do!


The most accurate saying I ever heard was "You get what you pay for"

Hit the nail on the head! ;)


Linux Sux.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion.

argie
July 10th, 2007, 07:50 AM
...
E: Type 'ftp://ftp.videolan.org/pub/videolan/ubuntu' is not known on line 34 in source list /etc/apt/sources.list
E: Unable to lock the list directory

And nobody's advice works. When people start responding to these issues, they just become part of the problem.
....
Dude, this is ridiculous. You (or someone who you allowed to access the computer) has done something very unsmart. You claim you didn't know how to get to root but you managed to edit your sources.list (which can only be edited as root) and to top it all off you've not added the repository (if it is one) properly.

You can't open your computer case, pull out the RAM, stick cheese in its place and then tell the tech that you don't know how to open computer cases and that the computer you bought is therefore a lemon.

steven8
July 10th, 2007, 07:51 AM
You can't open your computer case, pull out the RAM, stick cheese in its place and then tell the tech that you don't know how to open computer cases and that the computer you bought is therefore a lemon.

Damn! That's just the tactic I was going to try with HP!! :lolflag:

Jockboy98295
July 10th, 2007, 08:28 AM
It needs to be something that most THINKING people can install without too much of a problem (Talking about the average WinXP user who doesn't know a lot about Linux).
But it also needs to support wireless networking and graphics cards without an issue, or else they WILL go back to Win. They have to work realiably.
Unfortunately, (In my attempts to get people to try Ubuntu) those are the reasons why a lot of people will not switch to Ubuntu, simply because they are afraid that there high doller graphics cards or wireless cards wont work. In my case, my sound card doesn't always start up at boot, I may have to restart the comp 2 or 3 times before it actually starts working. And, I have the correct drivers installed and it worked perfectly before I switched to 7.04 form 6.06 LTS. I also realize that a lot of hardware drivers are proprietary and therefore we have to create/find our own. But, the average Win user doesn't know how to do that and will need a lot of help. Which, if they would try the forums, they could find with no problem.
But, in any case it needs to be a rather painless, easy to install, upgrade, and configure OS. Which Ubuntu does pretty well.

Good job to the developers.

mangar
July 10th, 2007, 09:48 AM
Double post, sorry..

mangar
July 10th, 2007, 10:03 AM
Being desktop ready implies catering to all the needs of all the users, in all usage scenarios.

My assessment (not overly detailed), when cut into rough categories:

Using Ubuntu Feisty 64bit. compared for example, with vista 64bit (both installed on my system).
Lets assume that the only actions allowed are using a package management (including external ones, and getdeb.net).
Note: that there may be some overlap.
Note: I am not discussing the reasons (for example - no support from adobe), but the results.

1. Office use (2/10):
a. cannot read the de-facto standard of .doc (there are problems).
b. evolution have problem connecting to exchange server - mail cannot be sorted by date,
non-latin mail header shown as garbage, cannot set starting day of the week to be Sunday, and numerous other bugs (more than 2000, according to bugzilla).
b. syncing with palm-pilot - fails on todo lists, flaky.
c. synching with web services - (except gmail, but supporting pop3 is not such a great achievement).
d. openoffice got a terrible interface, many obscure configuration options, and abysmal performance.
e. using crossover office is problematic, as the performance takes a major hit, there are drawing artifacts, and in general, it is not a pleasant experience.
f. Synching with other devices, such as mobile phones, is close to impossible.
g. problematic powerpoint replacements (Impress is annoying).
h. problematic excel replacements (not in my usage scenario, general impression).
--NOTE: I know that Office cost extra, but the comparison is to the equivalent alternatives in gnu/linux land.

2. Graphic/ Video/Music editing - professional /Home (5/10) (not my field of expertise, so I'm using a guesstimation)
a. No Photoshop.
b. The Gimp is very nice, but do not support CMYK (?), and got a non-intuitive interface.
c. Got a native version of Maya.
d. Blender is nice.
e. no professional video editing software. - cinerella is very hard to install.
f. Problematic non-professional video editing - Kino is very buggy, other programs (can't recall their name) are no better.
g. no Professional music editing tools (cubase, etc). replacements exists, but its not my field of expertise
since I can't compare, and Jokosher seems nice, I gave a non-scientific full grade for the music production part. (3 points)

3. Media center / Multimedia capabilities (5/10):
a. Mythtv requires login in as a different user, and install mySql. hard to set up. works.
b. synchronizing with an iPod can be a very annoying (using gtkpod, or amarok).
c. inconsistent reading of mp3 metadata between amarok, rhythmbox, and gtkpod.
d. no replacement for tag n' rename - easytag cannot find album on amazon, or write idtag v2 (I may be wrong here).
e. No HDTV playback.
f. No DVD support (can be installed. not by default, not easily).

4. web development / system administration (7/10) - not my field
a. most of the score is based on the fact that most of the web is linux based, and lots of web developers use linux.
b. no dreamweaver.
c. sketchy support for IE/safari under linux using wine.
d. full score for sys-admining, since most of linux sys-admin seems very happy. :)

5. Engineering / HW/ SW / Math development (7/10).
a. no Autocad
b. no decent UML tools.
c. supported by most EDAs,
d. got matlab, octave, maxima, R - the mathematical part is quite sound.
e. no SPSS.
f. great dev. tools - eclipse, gcc, intel compiler, valgrind, emacs, vim.
g. excellent libraries - qt, gtk, sdl, opengl, etc.

6. Web browsing/ IM / VoIP (5/10).
a. got firefox, opera.
b. using the 64bit version: no flash.
c. problematic embedded media support, using either totem-xine, totem-gstreamer, mplayer-plugin.
d. no 64bit opera.
e. no 64bit skype.
f. no voice, video, games support for msn.
g. problematic bidi support using pidgin, skype.
h. no feature equivalent open source application.
g. no easy work-around for 64bit problems (like using a 32bit version of firefox)

7. Financials / specialist professional software (2/10).
a. Some non-professional tools (homebank, gnucash).
b. No Quicken or equivalent software.
c. almost no professional level specialist software, except in the SW/ HW / Math fields.

8. Games (3/10).
a. some nice kids games (tuberling, gcompris)
b. some nice open source games (nexuiz, true combat elite, ur-quan masters, battle for wesnoth, civ 2).
c. lots of emulators.
d. sketchy gamepad / joystick support.
e. sub-par sound server - incompatiblities, crashes, or simply no sound (in return to castle wolfenstein, for example)
f. very limited number of full-scale games - about a dozen overall, where the industry produces hundreds each year.
g. sub-par accelerated graphics support, no all the hardware features are supported.

Overall score : 4.5
Score for home use : 3.16
Score for professional use : 4.6

Score for HW/SW/Math development, in teams that uses mailing lists (and no calendaring) and no UML: 9.1 (extra bonus for virtual desktops). (In short, academia, OSS development at home).
NOTE: windows get a 8.5 here, because its command line sucks, got no valgrind, and I personally don't like VS.
(it got cygwin, and source insight, tortoisesvn, beyond compare, and most of the OSS tools sans valgrind).

Please note that the scores biased upward - when in doubt, the relative weight was given in full.

Some areas are not covered:
1. Home user hardware support (printers, monitors, scanners, web-cams, remote controls, misc.) the situation here is terrible. (No manufacturer support, but the bottom line is that it is not usable).
2. The state of composite desktop, performance, and support in graphical libraries. (can be installed, buggy).
3. The state of core libraries. (gtk got thousands of bugs, lacks maintainers).
4. Install (good), migration (bad).
5. Theme, Icons, fonts, wallpapers (opinions vary, somewhat negative).
6. Stability (the kernel works great, the rest is less than stellar).
7. known, high profile bugs that are open for years (file-roller drag and drop, for example..).
8. Politics everywhere in OSS land.
9. Interoperability: samba, network shares, ntfs supports, etc.
10. lack of innovation.

smoker
July 10th, 2007, 10:26 AM
Short assessment for linux's viability as desktop environment - not optimistic

why are you assessing only one version of one distro in your comparison, and using that to judge 'linux's' viability, there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of distros, some more suited to a desktop environment that others. anyway, isn't this only your opinion, i've been using linux (a few different distros) on the desktop with no major problems for a while now.

seems to me everyone has an idea of what linux should and shouldn't have regarding desktop use. personally i find it lacking not much at all.

mangar
July 10th, 2007, 10:35 AM
1. those are the ubuntu forums, and ubuntu is the most popular linux distro.
2. Using a different distro will not magically create software, or make third party vendors create software.
3. I didn't ask whether gnu/linux work for me, or for you. I've made rough categories, and tried to assess whether gnu/linux is a viable option there. for most usage categories, as I understand them, linux's performance ranges from lacking, to non-existent, to very good when developing software/hardware / math at home (and only in that scenario. for all other cases, it sucks terribly).

I've been using gnu/linux in some flavors since 2000, and I still remember that cd-roms and floppy disks where not auto mounted, and that the kernel had to be re-compiled in order to support my sound-card. those problems have been solved only two years ago (in 2005), when dbus/hal became more widely used.
you can argue that opensync, conduit, evolution, pulseaudio, openoffice, exaile, amarok, easytag, and the rest of the software stack are making a progress, but still, other platforms got those capabilities now, and are usable now, and not in some arbitrary point in the future.
Furthermore, the average time for a project to reach usable status has been, by my non-scientific guestimation, about 4 years.
Its mean that in 4 years, some of the problems mentioned here will be solved. most of the problem I've had 7 years ago where solved, in 5 years time, but in the meanwhile, the computing world has moved on, and all those great achievements becomes accepted as mandatory, so nothing is actually gained, and the feature gap remains constant, at about 4 years (probably more).

argie
July 10th, 2007, 11:39 AM
@mangar: I don't understand, I have Ubuntu running on three computers at home now and it fulfils all our needs. Since you seem to have such requirements that can't work perhaps Ubuntu isn't for you. I'll tell you my requirements:
1. Must run Konqueror.
2. Must have a bash or bash-like shell available without installing.
3. Must have centralised package management.
4. Must have hardware-accelerated desktop.
5. Interoperability, must access ext3 (with journaling), xfs and jfs.
6. Must have virtual terminals.
7. Must allow me to work without a graphical environment when I wish.
8. Must have workspaces out of the box.
9. Corresponding software must use ISO standards by default in areas where they exist.

This is for home use. I like the bash shell, the loops are amazing. I like Konqueror, it renders nicely. Package Management is a godsend. Compiz Fusion is very nice. I like these filesystems, they work well for me. Virtual Terminals are wonderful, I can run wget on one and switch to see it faster than if I used screens. There are times when I prefer not having a GUI, honestly. Workspaces, there is nothing you can say against workspaces, they are made of manna that leaked from the arteries of God. Related to interoperability, I like standards, because that way I can be sure that I can use some other program for its features and not because I have to work with a particular format.

Not all other Operating Systems will give me all of this. All of those OSes, by your definition, have failed the Desktop Readiness test. OS X has Spaces, so it's closer to being ready for my desktop than say, uhm, Minix. And a GNU/HURD system hasn't quite reached a GNU/BSD system according to these requirements, in fact, I think a GNU/BSD system would be pretty good for what I need, but I prefer Ubuntu.


Damn! That's just the tactic I was going to try with HP!! :lolflag:

Tell me if it works. I wants RAMs too. :D

steven8
July 10th, 2007, 12:02 PM
Tell me if it works. I wants RAMs too. :D

I'm going to try cheddar first. If that doesn't work then American, to see if that spurs their patriotism!!.

mangar
July 10th, 2007, 12:03 PM
@argie:
According to you specifications, Ubuntu fails... you must you Kubuntu!
(because of the no-installation part).

Allow me to ignore the requirement for Konqueror - The requirement is actually for a highly customizable file manager, and one exists for all operation systems. On the other hand, if you want to add standards as a user category (actually, it's not a usage scenario, but lets assume it is), and give gnu/linux a full 10, than each score rises by about 1.11 (and small scale sw developments get a 9.7 or about that).

OS/2, next, beOS, osX, solaris, and even windows (with unix services for windows) are POSIX compliant.
exts3, etc commercial: http://www.mount-everything.com/comparsion.htm
free: http://www.diskinternals.com/linux-reader/
http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/explore2fs.htm

The demand for centralized package management is actually represented by the sys-admin part. the problem start when you want to install something that is not in the repositories.

mangar
July 10th, 2007, 12:20 PM
@argie
I'll try to be more consistent:
according to my rules, in much shortened way:

GNU/Linux:
~3.1 readiness for the desktop, at mangar's scale, for the year 2007.

Windows Vista:
-0.4 points for no centralized package management.
-0.2 for no integration with the terminal and virtual desktops (got deskwin, cygwin, powershell).
-0.3 for not using ISO standards, for everything.
-0.2 for mfc, and the bugs in the API and the magic switches, and for not having Valgrind.

total score:
~9.0 readiness for the desktop, at mangar's scale, for the year 2007.

Windows XP:
same as vista, no composite desktop, no integrated sync tools (-0.4)

Total score:
~8.6 readiness for the desktop, at mangar's scale, for the year 2007.

Mac osX:
-0.4 points for no centralized package management.
-0.2 for not using ISO standards, for everything (uses more standards than windows, hence the better score)
-0.8 for games selection
-0.5 for lack of availability of professional software.
-0.1 for not having valgrind

Total score:
~8.0 readiness for the desktop, at mangar's scale, for the year 2007.

argie
July 10th, 2007, 12:25 PM
Actually, I have both Ubuntu and all the stuff from kde-core + some additional things installed. The 'without installing' part only applies where mentioned :) not arbitrarily anywhere in the list because the eye-candy I prefer isn't installed on any mainstream distro I know of.

Well, the KHTML engine would be missing, but WebKit would be good, and I know only of Swift which uses that. Safari is insufferable. I don't like it at all. And I've really begun to like kioslaves in KDE, they're real nice, and I expect them (or a replacement) to be part of the file manager. Other people dislike the fact that Konqueror is a swiss army knife, I've gotten to like it very much indeed.

Oh, I liked the idea of Solaris, I started downloading it (OpenSolaris) and then they offered to send out discs, so I asked there and they never sent me the discs. In the meantime I got comfortable where I am, maybe I'll try it sometime in the future.

Nice find, the last ext3 reader, that may help. As for the repositories, I have only my local mirror repositories (IN) and Trevinő's for Compiz Fusion.

EDIT: Yikes, didn't see that second post.

Well done, nice evaluation. People who use your scale would indeed find Ubuntu painful. People like me would find another OS that didn't meet these requirements unusable. Fortunately the vast majority of people are like neither of us :D

Frak
July 10th, 2007, 01:27 PM
I'm going to try cheddar first. If that doesn't work then American, to see if that spurs their patriotism!!.
Try creamcheese, fills the crevases better :)

ukripper
July 10th, 2007, 05:20 PM
@argie
I'll try to be more consistent:
according to my rules, in much shortened way:

GNU/Linux:
~3.1 readiness for the desktop, at mangar's scale, for the year 2007.

Windows Vista:
-0.4 points for no centralized package management.
-0.2 for no integration with the terminal and virtual desktops (got deskwin, cygwin, powershell).
-0.3 for not using ISO standards, for everything.
-0.2 for mfc, and the bugs in the API and the magic switches, and for not having Valgrind.

total score:
~9.0 readiness for the desktop, at mangar's scale, for the year 2007.

Windows XP:
same as vista, no composite desktop, no integrated sync tools (-0.4)

Total score:
~8.6 readiness for the desktop, at mangar's scale, for the year 2007.

Mac osX:
-0.4 points for no centralized package management.
-0.2 for not using ISO standards, for everything (uses more standards than windows, hence the better score)
-0.8 for games selection
-0.5 for lack of availability of professional software.
-0.1 for not having valgrind

Total score:
~8.0 readiness for the desktop, at mangar's scale, for the year 2007.

scores :confused: where are your sources? Substantiate? Your personal scores wont prove your points.

KIAaze
July 10th, 2007, 05:38 PM
I think his post a few posts earlier explains his scoring:

Being desktop ready implies catering to all the needs of all the users, in all usage scenarios.

My assessment (not overly detailed), when cut into rough categories:

Using Ubuntu Feisty 64bit. compared for example, with vista 64bit (both installed on my system).
Lets assume that the only actions allowed are using a package management (including external ones, and getdeb.net).
Note: that there may be some overlap.
Note: I am not discussing the reasons (for example - no support from adobe), but the results.

1. Office use (2/10):
a. cannot read the de-facto standard of .doc (there are problems).
b. evolution have problem connecting to exchange server - mail cannot be sorted by date,
non-latin mail header shown as garbage, cannot set starting day of the week to be Sunday, and numerous other bugs (more than 2000, according to bugzilla).
b. syncing with palm-pilot - fails on todo lists, flaky.
c. synching with web services - (except gmail, but supporting pop3 is not such a great achievement).
d. openoffice got a terrible interface, many obscure configuration options, and abysmal performance.
e. using crossover office is problematic, as the performance takes a major hit, there are drawing artifacts, and in general, it is not a pleasant experience.
f. Synching with other devices, such as mobile phones, is close to impossible.
g. problematic powerpoint replacements (Impress is annoying).
h. problematic excel replacements (not in my usage scenario, general impression).
--NOTE: I know that Office cost extra, but the comparison is to the equivalent alternatives in gnu/linux land.

2. Graphic/ Video/Music editing - professional /Home (5/10) (not my field of expertise, so I'm using a guesstimation)
a. No Photoshop.
b. The Gimp is very nice, but do not support CMYK (?), and got a non-intuitive interface.
c. Got a native version of Maya.
d. Blender is nice.
e. no professional video editing software. - cinerella is very hard to install.
f. Problematic non-professional video editing - Kino is very buggy, other programs (can't recall their name) are no better.
g. no Professional music editing tools (cubase, etc). replacements exists, but its not my field of expertise
since I can't compare, and Jokosher seems nice, I gave a non-scientific full grade for the music production part. (3 points)

3. Media center / Multimedia capabilities (5/10):
a. Mythtv requires login in as a different user, and install mySql. hard to set up. works.
b. synchronizing with an iPod can be a very annoying (using gtkpod, or amarok).
c. inconsistent reading of mp3 metadata between amarok, rhythmbox, and gtkpod.
d. no replacement for tag n' rename - easytag cannot find album on amazon, or write idtag v2 (I may be wrong here).
e. No HDTV playback.
f. No DVD support (can be installed. not by default, not easily).

4. web development / system administration (7/10) - not my field
a. most of the score is based on the fact that most of the web is linux based, and lots of web developers use linux.
b. no dreamweaver.
c. sketchy support for IE/safari under linux using wine.
d. full score for sys-admining, since most of linux sys-admin seems very happy. :)

5. Engineering / HW/ SW / Math development (7/10).
a. no Autocad
b. no decent UML tools.
c. supported by most EDAs,
d. got matlab, octave, maxima, R - the mathematical part is quite sound.
e. no SPSS.
f. great dev. tools - eclipse, gcc, intel compiler, valgrind, emacs, vim.
g. excellent libraries - qt, gtk, sdl, opengl, etc.

6. Web browsing/ IM / VoIP (5/10).
a. got firefox, opera.
b. using the 64bit version: no flash.
c. problematic embedded media support, using either totem-xine, totem-gstreamer, mplayer-plugin.
d. no 64bit opera.
e. no 64bit skype.
f. no voice, video, games support for msn.
g. problematic bidi support using pidgin, skype.
h. no feature equivalent open source application.
g. no easy work-around for 64bit problems (like using a 32bit version of firefox)

7. Financials / specialist professional software (2/10).
a. Some non-professional tools (homebank, gnucash).
b. No Quicken or equivalent software.
c. almost no professional level specialist software, except in the SW/ HW / Math fields.

8. Games (3/10).
a. some nice kids games (tuberling, gcompris)
b. some nice open source games (nexuiz, true combat elite, ur-quan masters, battle for wesnoth, civ 2).
c. lots of emulators.
d. sketchy gamepad / joystick support.
e. sub-par sound server - incompatiblities, crashes, or simply no sound (in return to castle wolfenstein, for example)
f. very limited number of full-scale games - about a dozen overall, where the industry produces hundreds each year.
g. sub-par accelerated graphics support, no all the hardware features are supported.

Overall score : 4.5
Score for home use : 3.16
Score for professional use : 4.6

Score for HW/SW/Math development, in teams that uses mailing lists (and no calendaring) and no UML: 9.1 (extra bonus for virtual desktops). (In short, academia, OSS development at home).
NOTE: windows get a 8.5 here, because its command line sucks, got no valgrind, and I personally don't like VS.
(it got cygwin, and source insight, tortoisesvn, beyond compare, and most of the OSS tools sans valgrind).

Please note that the scores biased upward - when in doubt, the relative weight was given in full.

Some areas are not covered:
1. Home user hardware support (printers, monitors, scanners, web-cams, remote controls, misc.) the situation here is terrible. (No manufacturer support, but the bottom line is that it is not usable).
2. The state of composite desktop, performance, and support in graphical libraries. (can be installed, buggy).
3. The state of core libraries. (gtk got thousands of bugs, lacks maintainers).
4. Install (good), migration (bad).
5. Theme, Icons, fonts, wallpapers (opinions vary, somewhat negative).
6. Stability (the kernel works great, the rest is less than stellar).
7. known, high profile bugs that are open for years (file-roller drag and drop, for example..).
8. Politics everywhere in OSS land.
9. Interoperability: samba, network shares, ntfs supports, etc.
10. lack of innovation.

I think it's quite accurate.
It's pretty hard for GNU/Linux, but at least it clearly states the problems that need to be addressed.
The only thing I find strange is the end comment: lack of innovation???

tgm4883
July 10th, 2007, 05:47 PM
Again, I know how to do the things in Linux (and Unix) - heck, I brought up my entire Myth box without even bothering to install Xwindows. I was performing this install as a test of its capability for use by 'average' people. Anything that an average (or even above average user) couldn't do I wouldn't do.

When using the BUILT IN driver update system (the restricted driver dialogue) crashes the Xwindows system rendering the computer to a command line only system it is a serious failure in terms of being 'Linux for Human Beings'.

How?

mangar
July 10th, 2007, 05:56 PM
@KIAaze
I mentioned the last 10 points specifically, because they are arguable, and based mostly on perception.
from my perception (hence, may be totally inaccurate), the only innovation in the OSS world, from a user's point of view were:

1. valgrind
2. crumb bread navigation.
3. spatial navigation (imho, sucks, but still innovation).
4. some compiz-fusion plugins.
5. Eclipse is, IMHO, better than Visual studio (for Java, not as good for c/c++).

anything else is a functional or close to exact copy of existing applications.
(Nero --> k3b, word 97 --> openoffice, outlook --> evolution, freeciv --> civilization)
(including deskbar, gimmie, tomboy - had predecessors at apple).
If I'm not mistaken, beagle was declared a few weeks before Apple's indexer, but is yet to produce truly functional software (meaning - without being cpu, memory, io hog - from my own personal experience).
Since there a version of Google indexer available for gnu/linux, I have not stated the lack of background indexing as a negative point in the office use category (although it's lacking in comparison to the w32 version, or to Apple's equivalent); notice that it is not feature complete, and so are tracker, pinot, or strigi.

prizrak
July 11th, 2007, 12:28 AM
No doubt Windows, and MS, have and have had issues - but on balance I think XP w/SP 2 is pretty good - at least in so far as being good enough to fit that 90$=. Many of the changes that you or I would make would substantially crack away at that 90%+ deployment.

Yeah you are probably right, I couldn't fairly say that SP2 is a horrible OS. There is a good chance many people wouldn't like our changes we are power users for a reason :)

prizrak
July 11th, 2007, 12:50 AM
am i the only person in the world that learned the basics of ubuntu in 2 days? i had everything running perfect. and im no genius. just used good common sense, and a little digging for answers. losers like the OP shouldnt be allowed near ANY computer.=D>

I had no problems either. Well I had little problems, like lack of scrolling on a Synaptics GlidePoint with Warty and Hoary (tho that started working halfway through somehow). Then my hotkeys didn't work in Dapper, Edgy (that one was so bad on my tablet I went back to XP) and Feisty. Though I was running Feisty Alpha 2 and found a .deb with drivers for my hotkeys which also fixed Bluetooth (the key needs to turn it on before it gets picked up). Then I had a problem with not being able to suspend/hibernate in Feisty with binary nVidia drivers and Beryl. Tried it like a month ago out of the blue and hibernate works, suspend doesn't. I never really use those functions so I don't care. As long as the hardware is supported Ubuntu is no harder than XP.

darrenm
July 11th, 2007, 01:28 AM
Funny thing is, I can't get the scroll feature of my synaptics pad to work in Windows. Got all the drivers installed etc. but it wont scroll. There isn't anything to say it should scroll but it works in Ubuntu. Also bluetooth is really unstable in Windows, connection keeps dropping etc. but it works great in Ubuntu.

ihatethedekoys
July 11th, 2007, 02:03 AM
Wrong, I spent six days trying to get my 3 month old printer to work on this os. I loaded the driver cd, it's on the desktop. It still doesn't work. I have spent way more time on forums and manufacturer websites with absolute failure than I ever spent on Windows. Windows was easy to figure out. You put a driver cd in the drive, follow the prompts, reboot, done.Same thing with all devices, peripherals. I can't even get AIM to work on this ********, I have to take a class. Anytime you set out to improve on something, you don't erase or destroy all of the positive aspects trying to better the negative. Only a troll could believe that Linux is superior to Windows. I want a better os than anything that Microsoft has developed, problem#1 is that there isn't one. I never read a book or took a class to figure out Windows(98,ME, or XP) I just got Vista and I'm putting it on a new PC that I built myself in less than 2 hours from the ground up..I didn't read a book, or log onto any forum. And I'll bet you 10 operating systems that I don't have half the aggrivation ever with Vista that I continue to have with Daffy Duck er Dapper Drake. I can't figure out ubuntu in a week? It should not be this complicated to install drivers or watch a video someone emailed me in an attachment? Who cares if it's free. The most accurate saying I ever heard was "You get what you pay for". Linux Sux.

Please tell me you're just a troll.

Please please please.

tgm4883
July 11th, 2007, 02:16 AM
Wrong, I spent six days trying to get my 3 month old printer to work on this os. I loaded the driver cd, it's on the desktop. It still doesn't work. I have spent way more time on forums and manufacturer websites with absolute failure than I ever spent on Windows. Windows was easy to figure out. You put a driver cd in the drive, follow the prompts, reboot, done.Same thing with all devices, peripherals. I can't even get AIM to work on this ********, I have to take a class. Anytime you set out to improve on something, you don't erase or destroy all of the positive aspects trying to better the negative. Only a troll could believe that Linux is superior to Windows. I want a better os than anything that Microsoft has developed, problem#1 is that there isn't one. I never read a book or took a class to figure out Windows(98,ME, or XP) I just got Vista and I'm putting it on a new PC that I built myself in less than 2 hours from the ground up..I didn't read a book, or log onto any forum. And I'll bet you 10 operating systems that I don't have half the aggrivation ever with Vista that I continue to have with Daffy Duck er Dapper Drake. I can't figure out ubuntu in a week? It should not be this complicated to install drivers or watch a video someone emailed me in an attachment? Who cares if it's free. The most accurate saying I ever heard was "You get what you pay for". Linux Sux.

The answer lies in that statement. Linux is not better than Windows. Linux is an alternative to Windows.

On a different note, your printer might not work in Vista. Vista flat out told me that my scanner wasn't supported (an HP model) and that there would be no support for it at all.

raja
July 11th, 2007, 02:29 AM
Being desktop ready implies catering to all the needs of all the users, in all usage scenarios.

1. Office use (2/10):
a. cannot read the de-facto standard of .doc (there are problems).
b. evolution have problem connecting to exchange server - mail cannot be sorted by date,
non-latin mail header shown as garbage, cannot set starting day of the week to be Sunday, and numerous other bugs (more than 2000, according to bugzilla).
b. syncing with palm-pilot - fails on todo lists, flaky.
c. synching with web services - (except gmail, but supporting pop3 is not such a great achievement).
d. openoffice got a terrible interface, many obscure configuration options, and abysmal performance.
e. using crossover office is problematic, as the performance takes a major hit, there are drawing artifacts, and in general, it is not a pleasant experience.
f. Synching with other devices, such as mobile phones, is close to impossible.
g. problematic powerpoint replacements (Impress is annoying).
h. problematic excel replacements (not in my usage scenario, general impression).
--NOTE: I know that Office cost extra, but the comparison is to the equivalent alternatives in gnu/linux land.

2. Graphic/ Video/Music editing - professional /Home (5/10) (not my field of expertise, so I'm using a guesstimation)
a. No Photoshop.
b. The Gimp is very nice, but do not support CMYK (?), and got a non-intuitive interface.
c. Got a native version of Maya.
d. Blender is nice.
e. no professional video editing software. - cinerella is very hard to install.
f. Problematic non-professional video editing - Kino is very buggy, other programs (can't recall their name) are no better.
g. no Professional music editing tools (cubase, etc). replacements exists, but its not my field of expertise
since I can't compare, and Jokosher seems nice, I gave a non-scientific full grade for the music production part. (3 points)

3. Media center / Multimedia capabilities (5/10):
a. Mythtv requires login in as a different user, and install mySql. hard to set up. works.
b. synchronizing with an iPod can be a very annoying (using gtkpod, or amarok).
c. inconsistent reading of mp3 metadata between amarok, rhythmbox, and gtkpod.
d. no replacement for tag n' rename - easytag cannot find album on amazon, or write idtag v2 (I may be wrong here).
e. No HDTV playback.
f. No DVD support (can be installed. not by default, not easily).

4. web development / system administration (7/10) - not my field
a. most of the score is based on the fact that most of the web is linux based, and lots of web developers use linux.
b. no dreamweaver.
c. sketchy support for IE/safari under linux using wine.
d. full score for sys-admining, since most of linux sys-admin seems very happy. :)

5. Engineering / HW/ SW / Math development (7/10).
a. no Autocad
b. no decent UML tools.
c. supported by most EDAs,
d. got matlab, octave, maxima, R - the mathematical part is quite sound.
e. no SPSS.
f. great dev. tools - eclipse, gcc, intel compiler, valgrind, emacs, vim.
g. excellent libraries - qt, gtk, sdl, opengl, etc.

6. Web browsing/ IM / VoIP (5/10).
a. got firefox, opera.
b. using the 64bit version: no flash.
c. problematic embedded media support, using either totem-xine, totem-gstreamer, mplayer-plugin.
d. no 64bit opera.
e. no 64bit skype.
f. no voice, video, games support for msn.
g. problematic bidi support using pidgin, skype.
h. no feature equivalent open source application.
g. no easy work-around for 64bit problems (like using a 32bit version of firefox)

7. Financials / specialist professional software (2/10).
a. Some non-professional tools (homebank, gnucash).
b. No Quicken or equivalent software.
c. almost no professional level specialist software, except in the SW/ HW / Math fields.

8. Games (3/10).
a. some nice kids games (tuberling, gcompris)
b. some nice open source games (nexuiz, true combat elite, ur-quan masters, battle for wesnoth, civ 2).
c. lots of emulators.
d. sketchy gamepad / joystick support.
e. sub-par sound server - incompatiblities, crashes, or simply no sound (in return to castle wolfenstein, for example)
f. very limited number of full-scale games - about a dozen overall, where the industry produces hundreds each year.
g. sub-par accelerated graphics support, no all the hardware features are supported.

Overall score : 4.5
Score for home use : 3.16
Score for professional use : 4.6

Score for HW/SW/Math development, in teams that uses mailing lists (and no calendaring) and no UML: 9.1 (extra bonus for virtual desktops). (In short, academia, OSS development at home).
NOTE: windows get a 8.5 here, because its command line sucks, got no valgrind, and I personally don't like VS.
(it got cygwin, and source insight, tortoisesvn, beyond compare, and most of the OSS tools sans valgrind).

Please note that the scores biased upward - when in doubt, the relative weight was given in full.

Some areas are not covered:
1. Home user hardware support (printers, monitors, scanners, web-cams, remote controls, misc.) the situation here is terrible. (No manufacturer support, but the bottom line is that it is not usable).
2. The state of composite desktop, performance, and support in graphical libraries. (can be installed, buggy).
3. The state of core libraries. (gtk got thousands of bugs, lacks maintainers).
4. Install (good), migration (bad).
5. Theme, Icons, fonts, wallpapers (opinions vary, somewhat negative).
6. Stability (the kernel works great, the rest is less than stellar).
7. known, high profile bugs that are open for years (file-roller drag and drop, for example..).
8. Politics everywhere in OSS land.
9. Interoperability: samba, network shares, ntfs supports, etc.
10. lack of innovation.

Doesnt sound like needs of all users. more like the needs of a windows user who finds a new OS and different applications 'unintuitive'.

1.
a. Sorry, but how did you decide that .doc is the 'de-facto standard' for documents?
b. And problems with MS exchanges server are sort of expected, arent they?
d. Have you tried using Openoffice for a few weeks? I think the user interface and organization of menus is better then MS office. Ultimately this is very subjective.
g. Powerpoint replacement is problematic because you find it annoying ? Just google Powerpoint to see how many find it annoying.
h. OpenOffice Calc is as good as excel and gnumeric is better - and I have used all three !

2.
b. How many users need CMYK ? And nonintuituve is because you use photoshop and just had a look at Gimp. The same would be true for a Gimp user who tries Photoshop.
e. Very hard to install ? Look at http://www.kiberpipa.org/~gandalf/ubuntu/README

4.
b. So what?
c. Not true

5.
e. Heard of R?

amadeus266
July 11th, 2007, 07:09 PM
Is Linux redy for the desktop? Unfortunately, I think this guy might be right...

http://www.osnews.com/story.php/5354/Editorial-The-Future-of-Linux/

aysiu
July 11th, 2007, 07:49 PM
Is Linux redy for the desktop? Unfortunately, I think this guy might be right...

http://www.osnews.com/story.php/5354/Editorial-The-Future-of-Linux/ The only thing unfortunate is that you linked to the article. It doesn't say much about Linux being "ready for the desktop" or not. It's from 2003, makes some predictions about what will happen in the next two years (so by 2005, I guess), and the predictions are way off.

It's four years later and...


1) Major Linux distributions will collapse into a small, powerful group. No, not the way you described it.


2) Neither KDE nor Gnome will "win;" a third desktop environment will emerge. Xfce did, in fact, emerge, but no desktop environment "won," and no one will ever win. It's about choice, not winning and losing.


3) Distribution optimization will become more prevalent That did happen, but so what? That's great.


4) Integration will force the ultimate "killer app" I have no idea what this means. The paragraphs go on and on about active directory... it's all Greek to me.


5) Releases will become less frequent, and updates more common Let's see--Ubuntu, Fedora, and a bunch of other distros are making releases every six months. Linux Mint is releasing even more frequently than six months. So... no. Your prediction was off.


6) Linux-approved hardware will become common No. No penguins on the sides of boxes. No Linux drivers on the accompanying CD.

This is the funniest one:
Within the next two years, we'll likely see Linux kernel 2.8, Gnome 3, and KDE 4. It's four years later, and we still haven't seen any of those, as far as I know.

ukripper
July 11th, 2007, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by amadeus266 View Post
Is Linux redy for the desktop? Unfortunately, I think this guy might be right...

http://www.osnews.com/story.php/5354...ture-of-Linux/

Funny and fairly stupid article, all I can do is just laugh at all predictions which went wrong

amadeus266
July 11th, 2007, 08:22 PM
4 years later... My point exactly. There are still so many distributions out there that are, just under the surface, almost exactly the same and there still isn't a "solid" standard as far as how it is all put together. I feel that the author may be right that in the end there will ultimately be an expected standard and it will be distributed by only a few major players. Hardware support has most definitely improved over the last several years, but to go out and by a brand new (as in never before released) pc and have all that brand new hardware work exactly the way it was designed on a fresh "out-of-the-box" install is still sketchy (before you bash me on this, thre are some problems in windows as well). As far as the prediction of a command all user interface, including the mention of Gnome3, KDE4, etc., development takes time. I personally love linux and have experienced fewer problem with my linux systems than with their windows counterparts. But I think Linux as a whole still has a long way to go in order to capture a user base that will be able to topple a giant like Microsoft.

mangar
July 11th, 2007, 08:24 PM
@raja
I've been using gnu/linux for the past 7 years.. I'm not a newbie, by far.
1.
a. By being the most popular, by an extremely wide margin.. that's what de-facto means.
b. there is no functional equivalent in the gnu/linux world.
there's some projects in progress, (such as openxchange), but none of them is feature equivalent, especially in the calendaring part. since there's no suitable client in linux (evolution have 4200 open bugs..), the point is moot anyway (I'm using Evolution 2.10 inside a vmware session of ubuntu 7.04 in work, because I'm too lazy to install ms office. I get to know Evolution's problems from a very personal perspective..
(and exchangepe sucks performance wise, btw)
d. I've tried using open office, and failed. I can write a whole essay about the weaknesses of openoffice,
but to enumerate a few: tables, aliasing of mathematical formulas, bad aliasing for resized pictures, non-visual controls for pictures resizing (have to enter resize size by inches, while I use the metric system.. wtf), strange configuration switches, problematic support for bidi, hard to use, inconsistent drawing tools, huge memory footprint, slow. (I've tried using it to write my work for the university when I was a student, for a month or so, and later, for my cv, and various documents at work, it is not a good enough tool, sorry).
g. that's may be personal preference, but there's no other program, except kpresenter, which is very limited.
http://www.paoloamoroso.it/log/050406.html
http://linuxrevolution.blogspot.com/2006/11/we-need-better-presentation-software.html
I've tried using it, and dropped it when I've found out it have all the bidi problems of the rest of the openoffice suit, with the added bonus of aligning all my english documents to the wrong side..
h. calc is far slower than excel, sometime by two orders of magnitude. I don't use spreadsheets too much, but my gf tried, and her 1ghz p3 died (using it with excel actually worked quite well).
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=101
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1571626,00.asp
http://gab.net/articles/2006/07/30/openoffice-vs-excel

2.b. There are two categories in the graphical section - home use, and professional use.
Gimp got full score for home use, but since it doesn't have CMYK support, it cannot be used in the professional market at all.
http://tingilinde.typepad.com/starstuff/2004/05/gimp_vs_photosh.html
http://thelinuxadvocate.blogspot.com/2006/08/gimp-vs-photoshop-what-still-needs-to.html
http://grimthing.com/archives/2007/01/11/Gimp_vs_Photoshop/
I personally don't use either.

e.Hmm.. wasn't there last time I've tried to install it.. couldn't find a review on the web. +0.12 points for linux usability than. (full points, since I've never used it, nor found a review, I have no choice but to give it a full score).

4.b. Dreameweaver is THE web development tool, and there's no equivalent in the gnu/linux world,
http://alternativenayk.wordpress.com/2007/01/22/bluefish-nvu-dreamweaver-web-publishing-review/
c. That's from personal experience.. I know about ies4linux, it got problems with bidi (which have about 500m users world wide (hebrew, arabic), no media playback, and problematic flash support.

5.e. That's the only review of R I could find.
http://www.cmm.bristol.ac.uk/learning-training/multilevel-m-software/reviewr.pdf
It does not have an easy to use Interface, data manipulation is done programaticaly, there's no visual representation of data, and so on (Need to use external editor, use the command line to run the "program", etc.).

freebird54
July 11th, 2007, 10:49 PM
Just a quickie:


Gimp got full score for home use, but since it doesn't have CMYK support, it cannot be used in the professional market at all.

Funny, I can think of a LOT of professional uses that don't ever require printed output - the only need for CMYK that I've ever heard of.

Then again - I still my Amiga DP software to handle that - once I've got the pics how I need them, the separation can come later...

aysiu
July 11th, 2007, 10:57 PM
I don't know how good it is, but there is a GIMP CMYK plugin (http://www.blackfiveservices.co.uk/separate.shtml).

tgm4883
July 11th, 2007, 10:58 PM
aysiu, dang you and your speedy fingers. I was about to post that link, 5 seconds too late

mangar
July 11th, 2007, 11:53 PM
@asiyu
I've downloaded the file - it's from 2005, and not maintained, so I actually have no idea if it does work,
and if it does what is the quality of the result, and whether it is applicable for professional use.
Since the documentation on the web site states that it can only support duo tones (color calibration) of the red channel alone, I'll have to assume it's broken (I know it's a deviation from my own rule, but since it is both old and unmaintained, and stated as feature incomplete, I think it is reasonable to assume it's not usable, until proven otherwise).


(
Sorry for being a spoilsport, guys /gals! here's my (short) list of my current gnu/linux uses:
1. in a vmware session (at work)- sandbox for testing c/c++ code snippets, using the command line and gedit for fun and profit. (and because visual studio has a terrible editor, and I don't have a license for visual assist or source insight, so avoiding it is a priority).
2. same vmware session - using evolution, because I'm too lazy to install ms-office (and suffering the consequences, when the mail portion does not save the sort order)).
3. impressing a friend with compiz-fusion (and closing it immediately afterward, because of the black windows bug). (the more computer literate ones kinda shrugged it off).
4. Meta-linux - maintaining a linux partition, reporting bugs, making thing work, learning some code, delving into the world of undocumented oss code - which can be fun, if you're a developer.. :)
5. future plans - get a wii, install wiili (linux for wii, doesn't exist yet), and use it (also) as a media center.
6. I once showed my gf how to file bug reports, using trac, bugzilla, and launchpad, in case she'd want to work at QA.
)

aysiu
July 12th, 2007, 12:11 AM
Thanks for that assessment, mangar.

Not being a graphics professional, I have no idea how good the CMYK support is based on that plugin. It sounds as if it's abandoned and only half-functional.

Hex_Mandos
July 12th, 2007, 12:12 AM
Hardware support has most definitely improved over the last several years, but to go out and by a brand new (as in never before released) pc and have all that brand new hardware work exactly the way it was designed on a fresh "out-of-the-box" install is still sketchy (before you bash me on this, thre are some problems in windows as well).

My 5 day old Olibook 810 laptop works perfectly with Ubuntu, It's the cheapest I could find with a dual core processor and 1 gb of RAM, so it's not something special or obscure (although I did check that it had supported graphics and wireless before buying it). And this model (or rather, the whole Olibook line) is just a couple months old.

As a bonus, I didn't have to turn the laptop upside down to type a weird number during install.

steven8
July 12th, 2007, 12:43 AM
Try creamcheese, fills the crevases better :)

Oohh. Full coverage!! They can't help but see the light!

To be honest, I have to stop reading this thread as it makes my stomach turn more and more. For me Ubuntu w/Linux as the Kernel is as ready to be my desktop as it could be. A Ford is also good enough to be my everyday car, but it may not be someone else's.

Frak
July 12th, 2007, 01:57 AM
Oohh. Full coverage!! They can't help but see the light!

To be honest, I have to stop reading this thread as it makes my stomach turn more and more. For me Ubuntu w/Linux as the Kernel is as ready to be my desktop as it could be. A Ford is also good enough to be my everyday car, but it may not be someone else's.
Same with me, but I use a Chevy. ;)

prizrak
July 12th, 2007, 02:44 AM
Same with me, but I use a Chevy. ;)

Boo at American cars!!! ;) Despite my personal preference I would have to agree, if you just need a daily driver a Ford of Chevy will work just fine. If you want extreme cornering performance then you are better off with German or Japanese vehicles.

freebird54
July 12th, 2007, 03:54 AM
Well - the Ford might be a German one. Or the Chevy might be a Vauxhall. Or a Commodore. Don't count out the maker based on their handling in US models :)

I get by with a Mazda 6 (stick, 6 Cyl Manual) - the handling is OK.. Good enough for the roads we get to use thm on here!

saulgoode
July 12th, 2007, 07:57 AM
@raja
I've been using gnu/linux for the past 7 years.. I'm not a newbie, by far.
1.
a. By being the most popular, by an extremely wide margin.. that's what de-facto means.


Microsoft Word's DOC format is an editing format, not a publishing standard. I consider most people who publish their documents in Word format to be quite foolish. There is metadata attached to the document which the author (or his company) is probably unaware is being shared; not to mention the potentially embarrassing problem of DOC files retaining deleted text.

That is not to say it is a bad format, just that it should not be used for publication or sharing -- and certainly not as a "standard".

freebird54
July 12th, 2007, 08:09 AM
There is a way around most of that - just export it to text when doen. then pull it back in for a final format....

PITA though!

I guess PDF is about as useful as we have.. :(

mangar
July 12th, 2007, 08:14 AM
@saulgoode
Other de-facto standards for data transfer- zip, mp3, jpeg, divx, iso, xls, pdf, html, fat32
none of them is he best for the job, but they are the most used file formats.
If the criticism is about semantics, than take into account that I'm not a native English speaker.

.
.
.

Parmesan and Subaru Justy for me, but not at once.

loudmouthman
July 12th, 2007, 09:03 AM
True Story :

I have a client whose business has been running on Ubuntu desktop for a few months now apart from a few small issues with quickbooks and email attachments there has not been many problems for them at all. In fact they have been able to run their business without the problems my other windows users face.

Its ready for the SME Desktop now.

Bothered
July 12th, 2007, 10:06 AM
@saulgoode
Other de-facto standards for data transfer- zip, mp3, jpeg, divx, iso, xls, pdf, html, fat32
none of them is he best for the job, but they are the most used file formats.
If the criticism is about semantics, than take into account that I'm not a native English speaker.

.
.
.

Parmesan and Subaru Justy for me, but not at once.

That's a bit oversimplified. zip, divx, jpeg and (especially) fat32 are not really de-factor standard formats.

ukripper
July 12th, 2007, 10:30 AM
True Story :

I have a client whose business has been running on Ubuntu desktop for a few months now apart from a few small issues with quickbooks and email attachments there has not been many problems for them at all. In fact they have been able to run their business without the problems my other windows users face.

Its ready for the SME Desktop now.

Can you disclose bit more information about your client's business ? Not asking about their name just the business they do and use ubuntu day in and out and programs they use

mangar
July 12th, 2007, 10:57 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
when you get a compressed file, what is the most prevalent format? (>80% of the cases, for gnu/linux - tar.gz)
when you get a sound file, what is the codec used for compression? (>80% of the cases)
when you get a picture, what is its format (>80% of cases).
when you get a storage device (thumbdrive, memory card, ,mp3 player, portable hdd) what is the default file system? (>80% of the cases)
when you get an editable document, what is its format? (>80% of the cases).
when you get a non-editable document, what is its format? (>80% of the cases).
when you want to buy a desktop cpu, which architecture you're going to get? (>80% of the cases)
when you want to buy an embedded cpu, which architecture you're going to get? (>80% of the cases - the answer here is ARM)
when you want to use an application, or finish an arbitrary task, or run a game, what OS has the most chances of having the available tools? (>80% of the cases)

Bothered
July 12th, 2007, 11:10 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
when you get a compressed file, what is the most prevalent format? (>80% of the cases, for gnu/linux - tar.gz)
when you get a sound file, what is the codec used for compression? (>80% of the cases)
when you get a picture, what is its format (>80% of cases).
when you get a storage device (thumbdrive, memory card, ,mp3 player, portable hdd) what is the default file system? (>80% of the cases)
when you get an editable document, what is its format? (>80% of the cases).
when you get a non-editable document, what is its format? (>80% of the cases).
when you want to buy a desktop cpu, which architecture you're going to get? (>80% of the cases)
when you want to buy an embedded cpu, which architecture you're going to get? (>80% of the cases - the answer here is ARM)
when you want to use an application, or finish an arbitrary task, or run a game, what OS has the most chances of having the available tools? (>80% of the cases)

Compressed file - I would say zip is not a de facto standard - tar.gz is also very common.
Sound file - Can't argue with mp3. ogg is rare.
Picture - jpg is common, but I doubt >80% of cases. png is very common, as is gif.
Storage media - I consider fat32 an obsolete format. While many flash cards still use it, it has been superseded by ntfs on hard drives (or, on the small number of linux machines, ext3 or reiserfs).
Editable document - Definitely doc is the most common at the moment.
Non-editable document - pdf is by far the most common, ps is used in a significant minority of cases.
CPU architectures - Outside my area of knowledge.
OS - Oh boy, you can argue about that one, especially the way you put it! Needless to say, the answer is not obviously Windows.

mangar
July 12th, 2007, 11:26 AM
@bothered
Ok, now that we agree what de-facto means:
It's not personal. We can both agree for example, that fat32 is a trivial, outdated file system, but it is not a question of viability, but of interoperability. If you create a device that uses fat32, it will have close to 100% support (my benchmark is at 80%).
OS - please look at my first post,
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=450676&page=803

ukripper
July 12th, 2007, 11:32 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_facto
when you get a compressed file, what is the most prevalent format? (>80% of the cases, for gnu/linux - tar.gz)
when you get a sound file, what is the codec used for compression? (>80% of the cases)
when you get a picture, what is its format (>80% of cases).
when you get a storage device (thumbdrive, memory card, ,mp3 player, portable hdd) what is the default file system? (>80% of the cases)
when you get an editable document, what is its format? (>80% of the cases).
when you get a non-editable document, what is its format? (>80% of the cases).
when you want to buy a desktop cpu, which architecture you're going to get? (>80% of the cases)
when you want to buy an embedded cpu, which architecture you're going to get? (>80% of the cases - the answer here is ARM)
when you want to use an application, or finish an arbitrary task, or run a game, what OS has the most chances of having the available tools? (>80% of the cases)

The above resembles utter hysteria of few people against linux

Bothered
July 12th, 2007, 11:37 AM
OS - please look at my first post,
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=450676&page=803

I have read that post. I will post a more detailed response to it when I can.

prizrak
July 12th, 2007, 01:52 PM
Well - the Ford might be a German one. Or the Chevy might be a Vauxhall. Or a Commodore. Don't count out the maker based on their handling in US models :)

I get by with a Mazda 6 (stick, 6 Cyl Manual) - the handling is OK.. Good enough for the roads we get to use thm on here!

But that's an FWD, that drive train layout should never have been even THOUGHT of!!!!! Mazda is a Ford these days anyways ;)

Subaru Justy for me, but not at once.
LOL I had to actually Google that one :) (not a very frequent thing with me and cars). Subaru's are nice, I'm looking to get a WRX myself in a few months.

True Story :

I have a client whose business has been running on Ubuntu desktop for a few months now apart from a few small issues with quickbooks and email attachments there has not been many problems for them at all. In fact they have been able to run their business without the problems my other windows users face.

Its ready for the SME Desktop now.
That's very cool, however OS choices are pretty individual, assuming of course you actually know that you have a choice ;)

argie
July 12th, 2007, 02:31 PM
@bothered
Ok, now that we agree what de-facto means:
It's not personal. We can both agree for example, that fat32 is a trivial, outdated file system, but it is not a question of viability, but of interoperability. If you create a device that uses fat32, it will have close to 100% support (my benchmark is at 80%).
OS - please look at my first post,
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=450676&page=803

I don't quite understand. Before the aeroplane and motorised ship, what was the de-facto standard for crossing oceans? Better technologies will supersede older technologies provided they are better enough.

By your reasoning, there can never be a Windows alternative that is not Windows itself, Windows being the de-facto standard.

prizrak
July 12th, 2007, 02:46 PM
I don't quite understand. Before the aeroplane and motorised ship, what was the de-facto standard for crossing oceans? Better technologies will supersede older technologies provided they are better enough.

By your reasoning, there can never be a Windows alternative that is not Windows itself, Windows being the de-facto standard.

The point is that RIGHT NOW that is the de-facto standard. Whether it will change or not is a whole different issue. Also both aeroplanes and motorized ships were "compatible" with older tech. People could still get into them, they still crossed the same distances, there was no problem.

mangar
July 12th, 2007, 03:42 PM
A better analogy will be:
English is the de-facto international language- it is complex, not very consistent, and contains ancient artifacts,
exceptions, and lots of special rules that deals with special cases. It is far from ideal for its use as the lingua franca.

Esparanto, on the other hand, was designed specifically with the goal of being used as an international language.
It's easy to learn, easy to use, and contains close to zero special rules and use cases.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esparanto

Now, what are the chances that Esparanto will replace English? Over what time period?

Bothered
July 12th, 2007, 03:59 PM
@ mangar

I was going to write a detailed response to your post, but realised it would end up being very very long. However, as a general response I would say that you seem to expect ubuntu to be very much like Windows. I refer you to Linux is not Windows ("http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm). For example:


openoffice got a terrible interface, many obscure configuration options, and abysmal performance.

sounds very much like subproblem 5a,


No Photoshop.

no dreamweaver.

no Autocad

no SPSS.

sound (a bit) like problem 1, and:


The Gimp is very nice, but do not support CMYK (?), and got a non-intuitive interface.

sounds like problems 4 and 5. Also, you mention more than once that support for Windows applications is problematic:


using crossover office is problematic, as the performance takes a major hit, there are drawing artifacts, and in general, it is not a pleasant experience.
f. Synching with other devices, such as mobile phones, is close to impossible.


sketchy support for IE/safari under linux using wine.

I find this a particularly weak criticism, as I don't think you can really demand that software designed for another problem should run, unmodified and without recompilation, on a completely different platform.

KIAaze
July 12th, 2007, 04:52 PM
Quote from the Linux is not Windows paper:

Most people don't see any need to make Linux more attractive to inexperienced end-users: It already does what they want it to do, why should they care if it doesn't work for other people?
If you think like this (which is your right), this thread does not concern you.

Ubuntu's goal is to be an OS that works for other people (including those used to Windows).
If those people happen to have these problems mangar mentioned, they should be solved (while keeping the software Free of course).


sketchy support for IE/safari under linux using wine.
I agree that this is a useless argument.
If equivalent software with the same possibilities (if not more) is available, there is no need to support this software.

freebird54
July 12th, 2007, 04:53 PM
But that's an FWD, that drive train layout should never have been even THOUGHT of!!!!! Mazda is a Ford these days anyways

I think you have it backwards... the Fords that sell are actually Mazdas! As for FWD - it does have some packaging advantages, it is quite good in snow, it does great reverse doughnuts, it allows two foot driving (as opposed to needing handbrake turns (though it's good at those too). The biggest problem here, though, is that to get a decent handling rear-drive vehicle with a stick, you have to go at least to BMW. Not particularly affordable (though at least I don't live in Oz!)

I guess that's far enough off topic - except to say that Linux is like driving a stick. More control, you can always be in the right gear, you can use the gears to save money on fuel and on hardware costs (brakes, tires) you can go faster when you want to, the experience can be smoother, if you're good enough you can drive it like an automatic (skip the clutch) when you want to, and you can show off (to yourself or others) by coming up with the perfect solution to a corner (heel-and-toe double downshifts make even a commute more bearable),

Windows - an auto. Costs more to get and more to run, often not quite ready when you are, takes time to get it going, occasionally leaves you high and dry when you need to get somewhere (ever had to wait 10 minutes for an auto to warm up enough to select drive - try -40 degrees), you don't REALLY know what it's doing in there, you have to accept an "engineer's" idea of what you need to do, you can't push start it when something breals, you can't starter-bump it off the tracks if it dies with the train coming, requires much more maintenance and adjusting, and if you develop a leak it can leave you completely stranded!

Of course - this doesn't mean that you can't usually get where you're going :biggrin:

mangar
July 12th, 2007, 05:04 PM
@bothered
1. The focus of the my analysis is specific programs per-se, but the ability of gnu/linux software software stack (including all available commercial/closed source software), to offer full featured equivalents.
The idea is to check whether a class of problem can be solved using gnu/linux, compared to existing solutions on other platform. In short - if you have problem A, can you use the gnu/linux software stack to achieve the results you'll get using, for example, windows or osX platforms.

There are no functional equivalents to SPSS, Photoshop, Autocad or Dreamweaver - each on represents a class of problem that have no solution (that is usable by the intended clients of those applications) in the gnu/linux software stack.

Please notice that gnu/linux was not penalized, for example, for not having Visual Studio, because a funtional equivalent exists - like Eclipse and KDevelop. Anjuta, Vim and Emacs are not functional equivalents.

2. Synching with mobile devices is a class of problem, that is trivially solvable on other platform, and have no functional equivalent under gnu/linux - user of most PDAs and mobile phones cannot use them in full if they use the gnu/linux platform - it is mentioned as part of a larger class of problem, btw.

3. Web developers must be able to support IE, or at least have fail safes. if the want to support the (broken) de-facto standard. It's an essential part of their toolbox.

Most of the mentioned problems can be solved using a VMWare (or virtualbox, QEmu, whatever) windows/osX session, remote desktops, kvm switches, and in some (few) cases the Wine Translation layer.
All of those solutions are equivalent to using a crippled version of windows/osX, since all of them will be much slower (except some very specific cases when using wine), memory constrained, and not really worth the trouble - the overhead will be larger than running windows with an anti-virus.

mangar
July 12th, 2007, 05:27 PM
Windows is like a cheap, generic,no name, one size fits all toolbox, that have all the possible tools - a Hammer, a drill, a screwdriver, saw, pliers, solder, and whatever you want.
The quality is dubious, the drill leaks oil, the hammer handle splinter sometimes, but it's cheap enough, so when it breaks, it's possible to buy another. People who use the windows toolbox are used to using work gloves and safety goggles, so the quality does not bother them anymore, but they to think it's uncomfortable at times (especially when it's a hot day).

osX is like a high quality toolbox - it got less tools, the drill spins only at two speeds, but it does not leak oil, and is safe enough to work without safety gear. It costs twice than the cost of the windows toolbox, but sometimes it lacks a tool - for example, the right size of a screwdriver, or not having a plier, and so one. osX toolbox users claim that they do not need pliers, and that they are totally beautiful.

gnu/llnux is like a hammer. it's a lovingly crafted hammer, with a perfect balance of weight and handle length, high quality steel, good, strong pine wood handle, the nail pulling side is highly thought of, perfectly manufactured, and can pull out nails with minimal force. The rubber coating on the handle is a little sparse, and have a terrible color, but it works and works well, and you can easily change it to whatever color you want. Many consider the Linux Hammer to be the best hammer in the world, and you can not only get one for free, but if you ask, you get the manufacturing mold as well!
Some problems arises when trying to drill a hole, or screw a screw. Some Linux Hammer users says that screwing screws and and drilling holes are not important, and the Hammer covers most of the necessary functions of a toolbox (and if you've got several hours, they can show you how to drill a hole with the Hammer and a nail), and besides, give just several years and the hammer will be able to screw screws as well.. it's just around they corner, we promise!; The rest of the Hammer users use the hammer to hammer nails, and marvel it's ingenious engineering, but than again, they also have the windows toolbox, because they couldn't just figure out how to drills those holes using a nail and the Hammer, or need to screw screws, or saw wood, or use pliers, or solder some stuff.

prizrak
July 12th, 2007, 05:37 PM
I think you have it backwards... the Fords that sell are actually Mazdas! As for FWD - it does have some packaging advantages, it is quite good in snow, it does great reverse doughnuts, it allows two foot driving (as opposed to needing handbrake turns (though it's good at those too). The biggest problem here, though, is that to get a decent handling rear-drive vehicle with a stick, you have to go at least to BMW. Not particularly affordable (though at least I don't live in Oz!)

FWD is a ghetto AWD basically. If you need something good in the snow you need AWD, FWD is not even that good it just tends to understeer as opposed to oversteer. Left foot braking doesn't require an FWD it requires knowing how to do it ;) If you are talking about FR layout (engine in front/rwd) then left foor braking is plain unnecessary. Midships perform better with it though, AWD can benefit from it as well. There are plenty of nice handling RWD stick Japanese cars around. Mostly they are older but still great. If you need extra traction then it's AWD/4WD all the way. I mean FWD is just useless, it doesn't do anything that AWD can't and wears down the front tires/brakes like crazy.

Frak
July 12th, 2007, 05:43 PM
Windows is like a cheap, generic,no name, one size fits all toolbox, that have all the possible tools - a Hammer, a drill, a screwdriver, saw, pliers, solder, and whatever you want.
The quality is dubious, the drill leaks oil, the hammer handle splinter sometimes, but it's cheap enough, so when it breaks, it's possible to buy another. People who use the windows toolbox are used to using work gloves and safety goggles, so the quality does not bother them anymore, but they to think it's uncomfortable at times (especially when it's a hot day).

osX is like a high quality toolbox - it got less tools, the drill spins only at two speeds, but it does not leak oil, and is safe enough to work without safety gear. It costs twice than the cost of the windows toolbox, but sometimes it lacks a tool - for example, the right size of a screwdriver, or not having a plier, and so one. osX toolbox users claim that they do not need pliers, and that they are totally beautiful.

gnu/llnux is like a hammer. it's a lovingly crafted hammer, with a perfect balance of weight and handle length, high quality steel, good, strong pine wood handle, the nail pulling side is highly thought of, perfectly manufactured, and can pull out nails with minimal force. The rubber coating on the handle is a little sparse, and have a terrible color, but it works and works well, and you can easily change it to whatever color you want. Many consider the Linux Hammer to be the best hammer in the world, and you can not only get one for free, but if you ask, you get the manufacturing mold as well!
Some problems arises when trying to drill a hole, or screw a screw. Some Linux Hammer users says that screwing screws and and drilling holes are not important, and the Hammer covers most of the necessary functions of a toolbox (and if you've got several hours, they can show you how to drill a hole with the Hammer and a nail), and besides, give just several years and the hammer will be able to screw screws as well.. it's just around they corner, we promise!; The rest of the Hammer users use the hammer to hammer nails, and marvel it's ingenious engineering, but than again, they also have the windows toolbox, because they couldn't just figure out how to drills those holes using a nail and the Hammer, or need to screw screws, or saw wood, or use pliers, or solder some stuff.
Great metaphor

regomodo
July 12th, 2007, 05:47 PM
Every single post I can find on Ubuntu is as frustrating and complicated as this operating system is itself. The geeks talk to u like you are an IT tech.My life does not revolve around my pc(nor will it ever). I build computers(as a hobby, not professionally) and I have to say: Ubuntu
compared to Microsoft is like going back 20 years in time. I can't get my printer to work, I can't watch wmv on the primitive media player, I have no sound on mpg. I can't download and install something as simple as drivers for basically anything. Open source sux. Ubuntu has not improved on anything that Windows has ever developed. I can not use this os for anything
but web browsing. The forums just send you on one wild goose chase after another. It's sad that I can walk into a computer direct or similar parts store, buy everything I need to build a
gaming comp,, put it together without even looking in a manual or going into a forum, but if I don't spend more than $200 on a Windows os, it's useless to do anything but check my email.

haha. good one

saulgoode
July 12th, 2007, 05:54 PM
If you need extra traction then it's AWD/4WD all the way. I mean FWD is just useless, it doesn't do anything that AWD can't and wears down the front tires/brakes like crazy.

The justification for FWD lies in the fact that the drive train need not pass through the passenger compartment, allowing for larger, more easily designed cabins than (front-engined) vehicles with rear drive trains. While I am not a personal fan of FWD vehicles, it is an engineering decision that holds some merit.

fyllekajan
July 12th, 2007, 06:23 PM
3. Web developers must be able to support IE, or at least have fail safes. if the want to support the (broken) de-facto standard. It's an essential part of their toolbox.

Most of the mentioned problems can be solved using a VMWare (or virtualbox, QEmu, whatever) windows/osX session, remote desktops, kvm switches, and in some (few) cases the Wine Translation layer.
All of those solutions are equivalent to using a crippled version of windows/osX, since all of them will be much slower (except some very specific cases when using wine), memory constrained, and not really worth the trouble - the overhead will be larger than running windows with an anti-virus.

Dual boat - Problem fixed - That's what it's for!

Everyone already knows that there are tools not available for Linux.

tgm4883
July 12th, 2007, 06:29 PM
gnu/llnux is like a hammer. it's a lovingly crafted hammer, with a perfect balance of weight and handle length, high quality steel, good, strong pine wood handle, the nail pulling side is highly thought of, perfectly manufactured, and can pull out nails with minimal force. The rubber coating on the handle is a little sparse, and have a terrible color, but it works and works well, and you can easily change it to whatever color you want. Many consider the Linux Hammer to be the best hammer in the world, and you can not only get one for free, but if you ask, you get the manufacturing mold as well!
Some problems arises when trying to drill a hole, or screw a screw. Some Linux Hammer users says that screwing screws and and drilling holes are not important, and the Hammer covers most of the necessary functions of a toolbox (and if you've got several hours, they can show you how to drill a hole with the Hammer and a nail), and besides, give just several years and the hammer will be able to screw screws as well.. it's just around they corner, we promise!; The rest of the Hammer users use the hammer to hammer nails, and marvel it's ingenious engineering, but than again, they also have the windows toolbox, because they couldn't just figure out how to drills those holes using a nail and the Hammer, or need to screw screws, or saw wood, or use pliers, or solder some stuff.

A little off, if it's to work, linux has to be a toolbox too.

The linux toolbox is of superior quality. Craftsmen prefer the linux toolbox, and while the amateur hobbiest may have trouble putting the linux toolbox together, once together it will scratch and dent less easily. The linux toolbox does have a screwdriver, drill, pliers, and saw, but these had to be made by other toolbox users in their spare time. These tools may not have all the features of their counterparts (drill only drills so deep(but you can use any drillbit), screwdriver only screws things in, etc), but some are of higher quality. Some users of the linux toolbox do not care about these tools that are lacking features, as they will never use them. Others will use them, and work around the features they don't have. And still others will know that they can use their windows tools, from there windows toolbox. Those slick individuals have found out how to put a windows toolbox inside of their linux toolbox (so they can have the best tools around, and so their windows toolbox is better protected and easier to replace since it isn't their main toolbox.). Those individuals are great and all, but wouldn't be needed if we could get the tool manufactures to make tools for our toolbox.

Thats why I have a Windows toolbox inside my Linux toolbox.

prizrak
July 12th, 2007, 06:34 PM
The justification for FWD lies in the fact that the drive train need not pass through the passenger compartment, allowing for larger, more easily designed cabins than (front-engined) vehicles with rear drive trains. While I am not a personal fan of FWD vehicles, it is an engineering decision that holds some merit.

The ONLY justification for the FWD is that it is cheaper to produce for the company. There are still plenty of things running through passenger compartment, you got your exhaust, brake and power lines, suspension components, some other stuff I don't know about probably. I've ridden in towncars and mercs and neither seem cramped in any way shape or form ;)

fyllekajan
July 12th, 2007, 06:56 PM
Every single post I can find on Ubuntu is as frustrating and complicated as this operating system is itself. The geeks talk to u like you are an IT tech.My life does not revolve around my pc(nor will it ever). I build computers(as a hobby, not professionally) and I have to say: Ubuntu
compared to Microsoft is like going back 20 years in time. I can't get my printer to work, I can't watch wmv on the primitive media player, I have no sound on mpg. I can't download and install something as simple as drivers for basically anything. Open source sux. Ubuntu has not improved on anything that Windows has ever developed. I can not use this os for anything
but web browsing. The forums just send you on one wild goose chase after another. It's sad that I can walk into a computer direct or similar parts store, buy everything I need to build a
gaming comp,, put it together without even looking in a manual or going into a forum, but if I don't spend more than $200 on a Windows os, it's useless to do anything but check my email.

LOL pretty funny! But you still deserve this

http://communitiesonline.homestead.com/files/troll_2.jpg

aysiu
July 12th, 2007, 07:58 PM
3. Web developers must be able to support IE, or at least have fail safes. if the want to support the (broken) de-facto standard. It's an essential part of their toolbox.

Most of the mentioned problems can be solved using a VMWare (or virtualbox, QEmu, whatever) windows/osX session, remote desktops, kvm switches, and in some (few) cases the Wine Translation layer.
All of those solutions are equivalent to using a crippled version of windows/osX, since all of them will be much slower (except some very specific cases when using wine), memory constrained, and not really worth the trouble - the overhead will be larger than running windows with an anti-virus. IEs4Linux is great for web developers and actually runs at native speeds (Wine is a compatibility layer, not an emulator) on Ubuntu.

IEs4Linux is difficult to install and barely functional on an Intel Mac. It is not functional at all or installable on a PowerPC Mac. The latest version of Internet Explorer for Mac is IE 5. Basically web developers on Mac are the ones who are screwed. They have to use Parallels or dual boot just to preview their websites in IE (or use some slow website like browsershots to do it for them--and then only visually, not functionally).

Frak
July 12th, 2007, 08:36 PM
One more reason why my Mac can reach a top acceleration of 9.8m/s^2

freebird54
July 13th, 2007, 03:57 AM
FWD is a ghetto AWD basically. If you need something good in the snow you need AWD, FWD is not even that good it just tends to understeer as opposed to oversteer. Left foot braking doesn't require an FWD it requires knowing how to do it If you are talking about FR layout (engine in front/rwd) then left foor braking is plain unnecessary. Midships perform better with it though, AWD can benefit from it as well. There are plenty of nice handling RWD stick Japanese cars around. Mostly they are older but still great. If you need extra traction then it's AWD/4WD all the way. I mean FWD is just useless, it doesn't do anything that AWD can't and wears down the front tires/brakes like crazy.

Wow - not a thought I'd have had :)

First off - unless the 4WD is specifically designed for performance/handling reasons (Audi Quattro for instance) it is liable to understeer as badly or worse then FWD, All you can do is stay gently on the power, wait for speed to scrub off, and hope it will grip enough to pull you through.

Left foot braking (the way I am referring to) is completely pointless in anything OTHER THAN a FWD vehicle. (Don't forget I'm refering to a manual tranny here.). Essentially you use it on loose surfaces as an alternative to a handbrake pull - as the power remaining on will keep the fronts spinning, but the braking will lock the rears - enabling you to set up the four wheel drift necessary for making the corners... I first learned this rallying Minis - before the quattro turned rallying into a 4WD sport at most levels...

I wonder just where you find these 'nice handling Japanese sticks'. They don't seem to have made it to market here in Canada ;) In fact - at times it is hard to find a stick at all, im anything stronger than a Corolla anyway...

Also - there are distinct advantages to FWD over 4WD as well as over RWD. FIrst is cost - all that tire wear from having the fronts driven is ADDED to by all the extra mechanicals you're turning - all the extra weight you're carrying - all the extra gas (petrol) you're burning - and all the extra friction you're fighting. You haven't felt friction till you've tried to get a 4WD to move after a night at -50C !! And for getting up a hill or through heavy snow/mud WITHOUT 4WD, FWD is a very close second. Especially in reverse (for the hills) Only the Porshes and old Beetles are competition there. With a llittle driver skill you can get through stuff that has stopped 4WDs cold!

All the packaging advantages that the Mini showed the way to are also significant, and the lack of wear at the rears makes up for the excessive wear at the front (if you rotate often enough). The lack of rear driveshaft is VERY noticeable in most designs as well. Only downside - a shorter drivetrain life than a RWD....

OK - nuff 'bout that - you'll have me on topics like whether a 13-speed or a 15-speed is better for 18-wheel drifting next....(13 if you care :) )

Back to the regularly scheduled broadcast on whether Windows is ready for the desktop... er, whether Linux is ready for the desktop...er whether the desktop is ready for Linux... er well - whatever!

steven8
July 13th, 2007, 04:12 AM
Same with me, but I use a Chevy. ;)

Case in point! I now rest my case.

steven8
July 13th, 2007, 04:14 AM
Boo at American cars!!! ;) Despite my personal preference I would have to agree, if you just need a daily driver a Ford of Chevy will work just fine. If you want extreme cornering performance then you are better off with German or Japanese vehicles.

There are no American made cars anymore. 'Assembled' in America is more accurate.

prizrak
July 13th, 2007, 05:30 PM
Wow - not a thought I'd have had

First off - unless the 4WD is specifically designed for performance/handling reasons (Audi Quattro for instance) it is liable to understeer as badly or worse then FWD, All you can do is stay gently on the power, wait for speed to scrub off, and hope it will grip enough to pull you through.

Left foot braking (the way I am referring to) is completely pointless in anything OTHER THAN a FWD vehicle. (Don't forget I'm refering to a manual tranny here.). Essentially you use it on loose surfaces as an alternative to a handbrake pull - as the power remaining on will keep the fronts spinning, but the braking will lock the rears - enabling you to set up the four wheel drift necessary for making the corners... I first learned this rallying Minis - before the quattro turned rallying into a 4WD sport at most levels...

I wonder just where you find these 'nice handling Japanese sticks'. They don't seem to have made it to market here in Canada In fact - at times it is hard to find a stick at all, im anything stronger than a Corolla anyway...

Also - there are distinct advantages to FWD over 4WD as well as over RWD. FIrst is cost - all that tire wear from having the fronts driven is ADDED to by all the extra mechanicals you're turning - all the extra weight you're carrying - all the extra gas (petrol) you're burning - and all the extra friction you're fighting. You haven't felt friction till you've tried to get a 4WD to move after a night at -50C !! And for getting up a hill or through heavy snow/mud WITHOUT 4WD, FWD is a very close second. Especially in reverse (for the hills) Only the Porshes and old Beetles are competition there. With a llittle driver skill you can get through stuff that has stopped 4WDs cold!

All the packaging advantages that the Mini showed the way to are also significant, and the lack of wear at the rears makes up for the excessive wear at the front (if you rotate often enough). The lack of rear driveshaft is VERY noticeable in most designs as well. Only downside - a shorter drivetrain life than a RWD....

OK - nuff 'bout that - you'll have me on topics like whether a 13-speed or a 15-speed is better for 18-wheel drifting next....(13 if you care )

Back to the regularly scheduled broadcast on whether Windows is ready for the desktop... er, whether Linux is ready for the desktop...er whether the desktop is ready for Linux... er well - whatever!
LOL, I think our discussion is about as relevant to Linux desktop readiness as this entire thread. I will say the last thing on topic though. With modern materials and technology AWD/4WD is pretty cheap and just about as economical as 2WD. Most AWD/4WD (I know there is a difference but I can't remmeber which is which) cars nowadays run only 2 wheels at a time and only switch to 4 when necessary. So it's time to kill FWD :D
I am getting a WRX (non STi, can't afford the damn thing) in a few months :)

There are no American made cars anymore. 'Assembled' in America is more accurate.

DESIGNED would be the most accurate.

tgm4883
July 13th, 2007, 05:34 PM
DESIGNED would be the most accurate.

Bought in america

mdsmedia
July 13th, 2007, 06:48 PM
I don't quite understand. Before the aeroplane and motorised ship, what was the de-facto standard for crossing oceans? Better technologies will supersede older technologies provided they are better enough.

By your reasoning, there can never be a Windows alternative that is not Windows itself, Windows being the de-facto standard.Thanks argie. I was going to say exactly that, but since it was a day or so ago, I thought I'd read the later posts first.

I'm glad someone saw that the way I did.

mdsmedia
July 13th, 2007, 06:58 PM
I think you have it backwards... the Fords that sell are actually Mazdas! As for FWD - it does have some packaging advantages, it is quite good in snow, it does great reverse doughnuts, it allows two foot driving (as opposed to needing handbrake turns (though it's good at those too). The biggest problem here, though, is that to get a decent handling rear-drive vehicle with a stick, you have to go at least to BMW. Not particularly affordable (though at least I don't live in Oz!)

I guess that's far enough off topic - except to say that Linux is like driving a stick. More control, you can always be in the right gear, you can use the gears to save money on fuel and on hardware costs (brakes, tires) you can go faster when you want to, the experience can be smoother, if you're good enough you can drive it like an automatic (skip the clutch) when you want to, and you can show off (to yourself or others) by coming up with the perfect solution to a corner (heel-and-toe double downshifts make even a commute more bearable),

Windows - an auto. Costs more to get and more to run, often not quite ready when you are, takes time to get it going, occasionally leaves you high and dry when you need to get somewhere (ever had to wait 10 minutes for an auto to warm up enough to select drive - try -40 degrees), you don't REALLY know what it's doing in there, you have to accept an "engineer's" idea of what you need to do, you can't push start it when something breals, you can't starter-bump it off the tracks if it dies with the train coming, requires much more maintenance and adjusting, and if you develop a leak it can leave you completely stranded!

Of course - this doesn't mean that you can't usually get where you're going :biggrin:One word. Love it!!! OK that was two :)

Tomosaur
July 14th, 2007, 12:52 AM
@bothered
1. The focus of the my analysis is specific programs per-se, but the ability of gnu/linux software software stack (including all available commercial/closed source software), to offer full featured equivalents.
The idea is to check whether a class of problem can be solved using gnu/linux, compared to existing solutions on other platform. In short - if you have problem A, can you use the gnu/linux software stack to achieve the results you'll get using, for example, windows or osX platforms.

There are no functional equivalents to SPSS, Photoshop, Autocad or Dreamweaver - each on represents a class of problem that have no solution (that is usable by the intended clients of those applications) in the gnu/linux software stack.

Please notice that gnu/linux was not penalized, for example, for not having Visual Studio, because a funtional equivalent exists - like Eclipse and KDevelop. Anjuta, Vim and Emacs are not functional equivalents.

2. Synching with mobile devices is a class of problem, that is trivially solvable on other platform, and have no functional equivalent under gnu/linux - user of most PDAs and mobile phones cannot use them in full if they use the gnu/linux platform - it is mentioned as part of a larger class of problem, btw.

3. Web developers must be able to support IE, or at least have fail safes. if the want to support the (broken) de-facto standard. It's an essential part of their toolbox.

Most of the mentioned problems can be solved using a VMWare (or virtualbox, QEmu, whatever) windows/osX session, remote desktops, kvm switches, and in some (few) cases the Wine Translation layer.
All of those solutions are equivalent to using a crippled version of windows/osX, since all of them will be much slower (except some very specific cases when using wine), memory constrained, and not really worth the trouble - the overhead will be larger than running windows with an anti-virus.

Unfortunately, most of your complaints are not relevant, viable, or even related to Linux. It is not Linux' fault that mobile devices have sloppy support, for example. There is only so much that open-source devs can do to support proprietary hardware. The fact that any proprietary devices work at all is a testament to the skill and dedication of the open-source developers.

The only viable complaint you have is the lack of functional equivalents for some proprietary software. This is, however, why we even say 'Linux is not Windows' in the first place. If you need to use Windows software, then use Windows. You can't really be any fairer than that. It is true that real functional equivalents to this kind of software COULD be created by Linux developers, but at the moment, if there are no equivalents then there are no equivalents. It's not really a griping point. It's like saying 'Oh hey, this restaurant I went to a year ago erved great omelettes, why doesn't this restaurant?'. Different strokes for different folks, I say. If you absolutely need Windows software, then use Windows.

prizrak
July 14th, 2007, 01:17 AM
Unfortunately, most of your complaints are not relevant, viable, or even related to Linux. It is not Linux' fault that mobile devices have sloppy support, for example. There is only so much that open-source devs can do to support proprietary hardware. The fact that any proprietary devices work at all is a testament to the skill and dedication of the open-source developers.

The only viable complaint you have is the lack of functional equivalents for some proprietary software. This is, however, why we even say 'Linux is not Windows' in the first place. If you need to use Windows software, then use Windows. You can't really be any fairer than that. It is true that real functional equivalents to this kind of software COULD be created by Linux developers, but at the moment, if there are no equivalents then there are no equivalents. It's not really a griping point. It's like saying 'Oh hey, this restaurant I went to a year ago erved great omelettes, why doesn't this restaurant?'. Different strokes for different folks, I say. If you absolutely need Windows software, then use Windows.

I do believe you missed the point. While I think that for my needs Linux (well Ubuntu actually) is absolutely great and I love it, for people that need things that are missing it would suck. Saying that mobile device support is not Linux's fault is not going to help those people who need it.

I mean if I ran you over because the brakes on my car failed and you were paralyzed from the waist down I seriously doubt that you knowing that it wasn't my fault but the car maker's would help you.

One of my biggest gripes with Linux is that alot of support is done halfway. Bluetooth for instance, yes it can see my BT adapter, I can transfer the files and by jumping through some serious hoops I can get DUN working. However, the tools available are user unfriendly to the max, documentation is scarce and I cannot for the life of me get my headphones to pair. Same with tablets, the device is recognized and setup but there is no way, that I know of, to calibrate it so it ends up being quite a bit off near the edges.

Granted those things aren't necessarily deal breakers and are probably useless to a good number of people out there but it's still something there is very little excuse for. I mean the support is there all that is needed is an actual, usable front end.

entangled
July 14th, 2007, 09:04 AM
I agree that a lot of linux desktop interactions are incomplete. I think this depends on the developer and how much users care.

For instance, in my opinion, k3b has been well developed and maintained from a user viewpoint. On the other hand, again in my opinion, gnome network-manager looks as if little consideration has been given to the ordinary user. The performance and value of these apps reflects the care taken by the developer to consider and consult the user.

With free software the user cannot express an opinion by refusing to buy, hence the importance of strong forums like this one.

mangar
July 14th, 2007, 10:50 AM
@entangled
The developers rarely read the forum, this is essentially one big soapbox.
(I've seen rare posts by Burgundia (sp?), but that's it).

GNU/ Linux has some deep problems as a platform, that goes beyond the availably of entire classes of tools.
To enumerate a few:
No established sound server, undermaintend core libraries (gtk+ is a prime example - btw - it is not fully cross platform library), no unified look and feel (choosing a development library should not determine the level of integration with the desktop), problematic graphical backend (support for multiple displays, for example), and the most important problem: lack of developers.

The last problem is the most important, since without enough developers, the functionality gap keep growing, or at the best case, stays constant (for example - synching mobile devices was not a problem until about 5 years ago), so that the desktop readiness stays at a "not-yet" status, for the foreseen future.

Another class of problem, is that for general purpose, desktop use, the gnu/linux software stack doesn't have any real advantage over the competition, that can be a mitigating factor when accepting the platform's limitations:

1.Windows is very cheap (oem version cost to the end user are 50$ (according to Dell), over an estimated life period of 3 years (of the machine) the cost is ~16$ per year, with freely available security suits (avg, avast, etc)), it's about the most flexible platform, having the all the possible and best tools for any problem class.
(car analogy - Honda civic)

2. OsX is far more expensive (~120$ a year, if sticking to apple's upgrade path), has a smaller coverage for most of the problem classes, but compensates with the a far most polished, aesthetic interface, ease of use, better security, good interoperability with existing de-facto standards, and marketing.
(Car analogy - Porche)

3. Gnu/ linux is free (to use and modify), has very limited to none coverage for most of the problem classes, have limited interoperability with existing de-facto standards, got rough, unpolished UI, and has limited support for end-user hardware (while having good support for legacy, niche hardware, but it is not interesting to an end user), compensates with good security, feel-good factor, geek-chic, and low price.
(car analogy - Segway)

mangar
July 14th, 2007, 10:57 AM
For a constructive angle:
What do you think should be done in order to make Gnu/ Linux general purpose desktop ready?
(Other than deus ex-machina solutions, like legislation, a horde of bored billionaires (we already got two), or having dying corporations buy the missing components for US$73.5 million each).

Game_boy
July 14th, 2007, 01:19 PM
Things I'd like to Just Work:

- MIDI synthesis without a sound card: everything for software synthesis preinstalled on Ubuntu so MIDI files Just Work

- Wireless to Just Work on my computer

Feba
July 14th, 2007, 01:52 PM
I disagree with your car analogy- because linux is capable of doing the same things as Windows, it just takes a bit more doing, or needs to be ported.

A more apt analogy might be running- If you walk into a random store and ask for shoes, you'll get a generic brand, that will do you just fine. If you walk into a specialty shop, you'll get some deluxe Nike shoes, that easily fit your iPod, look schweet, and will be much easier on your feet, at the expense of price.

Linux would be like going barefoot. It's not that bad on your feet if you stay off the beaten path (concrete), watch where you're going, and don't mind having to clean your feet off every now and then. It gives you the best control over how your feet move, and allows you to do many extra things, like pick stuff up from the ground, if you're dexterous enough. It costs you absolutely nothing, although it might be hard to find a good place to run, and people will act like you're a freak :D

aysiu
July 14th, 2007, 02:52 PM
I agree that a lot of linux desktop interactions are incomplete. I think this depends on the developer and how much users care.

For instance, in my opinion, k3b has been well developed and maintained from a user viewpoint. On the other hand, again in my opinion, gnome network-manager looks as if little consideration has been given to the ordinary user. The performance and value of these apps reflects the care taken by the developer to consider and consult the user. I agree with your general sentiment, but I disagree with your example. I use a Windows laptop for my new job, and I also troubleshoot my wife's wireless connection on her Mac Powerbook. The Gnome Network Manager may not be a pretty-looking applet, but it is functionally superior to Windows and Mac for connecting to wireless networks.

In Windows, I have to click on it to have a separate window appear to select from available wireless networks. It is often unable to connect to my preferred network, for whatever reason. It isn't immediately obvious how to manually connect to a network that isn't listed (I had to dig around to find that).

In Mac, if my wife wants to reset the connection to the wireless network, she has to either manually enter a "new" network, turn the Airport thing off and then on again, or try to log on to another network and fail and go back to the old network.

In Ubuntu, if I want to select my network again (refresh the connection), I just select it again. It's in an easy drop-down list, and Network Manager makes it pretty obvious ("Connect to Other Wireless Network") how to manually add one that doesn't appear in the list. It also gives you the signal strength for all available networks and an icon to indicate whether you need a password to connect or not.

I don't see how that "gives little consideration" to "the ordinary user."

salsafyren
July 14th, 2007, 04:21 PM
One of my biggest gripes with Linux is that alot of support is done halfway. Bluetooth for instance, yes it can see my BT adapter, I can transfer the files and by jumping through some serious hoops I can get DUN working. However, the tools available are user unfriendly to the max, documentation is scarce and I cannot for the life of me get my headphones to pair. Same with tablets, the device is recognized and setup but there is no way, that I know of, to calibrate it so it ends up being quite a bit off near the edges.

Granted those things aren't necessarily deal breakers and are probably useless to a good number of people out there but it's still something there is very little excuse for. I mean the support is there all that is needed is an actual, usable front end.

I think the reason that a lot of things are done halfway is two-fold: there isn't enough money involved in Desktop Linux and also that Desktop Linux is immature.

Windows was designed as a desktop system from the start whereas the emphasis on the desktop only recently (as in a couple of years) started for Linux.

My personal opinion is that Ubuntu is the only distro that really understands what it takes to make a desktop. All the others forget the details.

prizrak
July 14th, 2007, 04:51 PM
I agree with your general sentiment, but I disagree with your example. I use a Windows laptop for my new job, and I also troubleshoot my wife's wireless connection on her Mac Powerbook. The Gnome Network Manager may not be a pretty-looking applet, but it is functionally superior to Windows and Mac for connecting to wireless networks.

In Windows, I have to click on it to have a separate window appear to select from available wireless networks. It is often unable to connect to my preferred network, for whatever reason. It isn't immediately obvious how to manually connect to a network that isn't listed (I had to dig around to find that).

In Mac, if my wife wants to reset the connection to the wireless network, she has to either manually enter a "new" network, turn the Airport thing off and then on again, or try to log on to another network and fail and go back to the old network.

In Ubuntu, if I want to select my network again (refresh the connection), I just select it again. It's in an easy drop-down list, and Network Manager makes it pretty obvious ("Connect to Other Wireless Network") how to manually add one that doesn't appear in the list. It also gives you the signal strength for all available networks and an icon to indicate whether you need a password to connect or not.

I don't see how that "gives little consideration" to "the ordinary user."
To add to that, the XP wireless utility only goes by network SSID for connections. So for instance if you were on a network called "linksys" and it's in your preferred networks, when you shutdown and go to a different location if there is a network called "linksys" it will connect to it again. Even if there is another preferred network in the area with a better connection strength you have to manually switch them. G-N-M on the other hand will check signal strength as well as the SSID so if you are around a stronger network that is also in your preferred list it will connect to it instead. One thing I wish it had is a way to view and edit list of preferred networks.

I think the reason that a lot of things are done halfway is two-fold: there isn't enough money involved in Desktop Linux and also that Desktop Linux is immature.

Windows was designed as a desktop system from the start whereas the emphasis on the desktop only recently (as in a couple of years) started for Linux.

I agree and disagree at the same time. It's has to do more with the developers themselves and how they are. Things are coded by those who know what to do for themselves for the most part. So it's like, "well it's supported and we can use it for the stuff we want, now we are bored lets go do something else". One of the best and worst things about Linux is that you can do ANYTHING yourself. So anyone can code those GUI's, on the other hand it allows developers to have "well someone else is gonna do it if they need it" attitude. Though things are getting much better with companies that are there expressly to develop desktop Linux distros.



My personal opinion is that Ubuntu is the only distro that really understands what it takes to make a desktop. All the others forget the details.
I don't know I would have to disagree. SLED has a very good grasp of what is needed on the desktop, FC and Mandriva are also pretty good. I feel that Ubuntu is actually a good mix of ease of use and functionality. I have always found SuSE to be somewhat restrictive when it came to tweaking, mostly because the config files generated by YaST were pretty convuluted.

aysiu
July 14th, 2007, 04:53 PM
I wish it looked better. The graphics for the signal connection look like the graphics on my cell phone...

I guess Windows' network applet icon is only marginally better-looking, though.

prizrak
July 14th, 2007, 05:04 PM
I wish it looked better. The graphics for the signal connection look like the graphics on my cell phone...

I guess Windows' network applet icon is only marginally better-looking, though.

Damnit! Can't make a screenshot of what mine looks like but if you install Nimbus theme it makes it look MUCH better.

aysiu
July 14th, 2007, 05:13 PM
Damnit! Can't make a screenshot of what mine looks like but if you install Nimbus theme it makes it look MUCH better.
Can you take a screenshot later?

The preview image on the Gnome-Look Nimbus page (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Nimbus+(Ubuntu+and+Debian)?content=54755) makes the bars look the same...

prizrak
July 14th, 2007, 07:02 PM
Can you take a screenshot later?

The preview image on the Gnome-Look Nimbus page (http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Nimbus+(Ubuntu+and+Debian)?content=54755) makes the bars look the same...

Ugg, not working, no clue why

aysiu
July 14th, 2007, 07:41 PM
So you're on Ubuntu now and can't do it? What's the terminal output of
gnome-screenshot?

prizrak
July 14th, 2007, 10:00 PM
So you're on Ubuntu now and can't do it? What's the terminal output of
gnome-screenshot?

It works as long as GNM network list is closed.... Go figure
Also I just realized what you meant by bars, yes the blue bars on the notification area look the same but when you open it the signal strength bars for each network look different, they are narrow and are not broken up like they are in Human theme. Also have a glossy finish.

aysiu
July 15th, 2007, 12:27 AM
Oh, I actually like the bars in the drop-down menu. It's the blue bars that I don't like. Personal preference, I suppose.

prizrak
July 15th, 2007, 06:18 PM
I do wonder if they can be changed in a theme or something.

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 05:56 PM
If being "ready for the desktop" should mean that what a windows user is used to, and should rely on their new Linux OS to encompass each working facet of their former OS, then I'm going to say it's NOT ready.

I've been using Ubuntu for a year now. I do love it. I Installed Feisty a couple days ago, and have totally ditched my Windows partition...great.

However, in trying to find a NATIVE Linux/Ubuntu/Gnome app which can produce a burnable DVD ISO, I've gotten NOWHERE yet ! In my Dapper install, I was using WINE, and it was just fine. On the other hand, I had way too much crap installed at that time, and now I'm striving to keep this install really lite, and clean. I don't want to rely on WINE, and don't even want to think of it in terms of being anything BUT a win program emulator. Yeah, the WINE devs can bitch all they want about it being called an emulator, but I don't care, that's exactly what it is.

And as a Gnome user, I don't even want to install any KDE libraries. Some may call this anal, but I call it being sensible and neat. So, as said in another post of mine:

I'm calling Bravo Sierra on Ubuntu being "desktop ready" until someone proves to me that there's a NATIVE Gnome app which is capable of making a burnable DVD movie ISO.

And please don't say that this isn't an important aspect of an OS, because that would be BS. An OS is a tool which one uses to go about their daily activities on. And for years, Windows was a tool which I used to back up my DVD's, because god knows how easy it is to scratch those suckers ! I refuse to use Windows anymore, but I'm also doing my best to not have to install WINE.

Please prove me wrong.

Doug

Miguel
July 16th, 2007, 06:03 PM
Do you want to make an ISO from a DVD? At least that's what I understood. If that's the case, the "native Gnome app" is called "gnome-terminal" and you can do it with


dd if=/dev/cdrom of=$HOME/my-dvd-image.iso


Where you have to replace /dev/cdrom with the correct device file. Oh! and check the man page for dd first, because dd can wipe the whole hard disk (with root privileges, of course).

EDIT: A typo with a slash in the code.

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 06:11 PM
Do you want to make an ISO from a DVD? At least that's what I understood. If that's the case, the "native Gnome app" is called "gnome-terminal" and you can do it with


dd if=/dev/cdrom of=$HOME/my-dvd-image.iso
Where you have to replace /dev/cdrom with the correct device file. Oh! and check the man page for dd first, because dd can wipe the whole hard disk (with root privileges, of course).

EDIT: A typo with a slash in the code.

Yeah, I've actually tried that method, and each time I get an error which led to it trying to read from sector 'whatever' as an alternative, and it just didn't work. I read that same advice on the wiki, and knew that it 'sounded' too easy. And the only time it started to work, was on an already copied DVD, so the encryption was gone, the obvious culprit.

For the record, desktop readiness should not involve any DD problems wiping the HD on any level... So, nix that.


dd: reading `/dev/cdrom': Input/output error
2272+0 records in
2272+0 records out
1163264 bytes (1.2 MB) copied, 0.49526 seconds, 2.3 MB/s (just one of the error messages on one attempt)

KIAaze
July 16th, 2007, 06:13 PM
This needs a GUI to be ready for the desktop...

salsafyren
July 16th, 2007, 06:28 PM
However, in trying to find a NATIVE Linux/Ubuntu/Gnome app which can produce a burnable DVD ISO, I've gotten NOWHERE yet ! In my Dapper install, I was using WINE, and it was just fine. On the other hand, I had way too much crap installed at that time, and now I'm striving to keep this install really lite, and clean. I don't want to rely on WINE, and don't even want to think of it in terms of being anything BUT a win program emulator. Yeah, the WINE devs can bitch all they want about it being called an emulator, but I don't care, that's exactly what it is.

There are no working Gnome/GTK programs, that I know of that can rip a DVD to produce an ISO.

I have found some, but they suck so much or they won't work at all.

I suggest running DVD shrink in wine.

You could try some of these programs: http://gnomefiles.org/subcategory.php?sub_cat_id=91

but they didn't work for me.

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 06:53 PM
There are no working Gnome/GTK programs, that I know of that can rip a DVD to produce an ISO.

I have found some, but they suck so much or they won't work at all.

I suggest running DVD shrink in wine.

You could try some of these programs: http://gnomefiles.org/subcategory.php?sub_cat_id=91

but they didn't work for me.

Well, your testimonial speaks volumes, and is the first response I've ever gotten from anybody (or have seen for that matter) which is honest enough to say what you did. Normally, you'll get a slew of posts from people saying that "you didn't do it right", or.. "you didn't look hard enough" etc...

But the truth is that if what we're really talking about is presenting a desktop environment which is friendly enough to uber noobs, then we are talking about one in which it's not necessary to have to seek out apps outside of the reach of the applications bundled for said OS. Because once we do that, we also start looking for support where it's not given, and that leads to way too much confusion for everybody.

So, it's NOT ready.

aysiu
July 16th, 2007, 06:54 PM
"uber noobs" create .ISO images from DVDs?

Soarer
July 16th, 2007, 07:13 PM
As a matter of interest, does XP or Vista do this out of the box?

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 07:19 PM
"uber noobs" create .ISO images from DVDs?

User noob does not equate to stupid. What is your point ?

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 07:23 PM
As a matter of interest, does XP or Vista do this out of the box?

It's a difference in structure and philosophy and resources here. Out of the box, I think that there is indeed a built in app which can create an ISO. How well it works is beyond me because I've never used it in XP, and have never used Vista, period.

That said, it's a totally different story because there are PROVEN apps for Windows on both the freeware and shareware fronts, as well as the apps which you can pay for, that all do the job very well. I'm glad that Linux is all about choice, but given that the choices I'm seeing in Ubuntu for creating an movie image are sparse to none, I'd say that we need MORE and viable choices.

Software written for Windows XP affects ONLY XP. Stuff written for Gnome, may be able to work within the KDE environment and visa-versa, but it starts making things a bit messy if you keep on going that route. And I'm set on staying clear of that path.

Till then: Not ready.

saulgoode
July 16th, 2007, 07:32 PM
It's a difference in structure and philosophy and resources here. Out of the box, I think that there is indeed a built in app which can create an ISO.

There wasn't one in the system (XP) I recently purchased. Nor is the proprietary app that was included by the OEM capable of doing so.


That said, it's a totally different story because there are PROVEN apps for Windows on both the freeware and shareware fronts, as well as the apps which you can pay for, that all do the job very well.

The same is true for Linux. You have arbitrarily placed a restriction that the DVD-burning app must be GNOME-based -- at best, this would only signify that GNOME is not ready for the desktop (using your "logic"), not Linux.

aysiu
July 16th, 2007, 07:44 PM
User noob does not equate to stupid. What is your point ?
I didn't equate "uber noob" to stupid. I said they don't create .ISO images from DVDs.

My point is that it doesn't make sense to judge "desktop readiness" based on the ability to perform an obscure operation through the GUI.

Hell, before I started using Linux, I didn't even know what an .ISO was.

-Ghost9-
July 16th, 2007, 07:57 PM
wish i could change my vote. I'd choose:
It automatically detects most hardware without the need to hunt down drivers

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 08:06 PM
There wasn't one in the system (XP) I recently purchased. Nor is the proprietary app that was included by the OEM capable of doing so.

Alright, you'd know best then. Fair enough.



The same is true for Linux. You have arbitrarily placed a restriction that the DVD-burning app must be GNOME-based -- at best, this would only signify that GNOME is not ready for the desktop (using your "logic"), not Linux.

The restriction is not arbitrary at ALL. If we're talking about Linux being ready for the desktop, then let's not mince words, and admit that we are talking about a specific distro which has the potential to make it as such. And that distro has been chosen already to run on Dell machines... So we're obviously talking about Ubuntu, specifically right ?

Secondly, choosing an windows manager such as KDE or Gnome, should IMO be almost exclusive in respect to their native apps because once you start telling noobs to mix libraries, problems may arise because of it, and fixing the problem becomes more of an issue once the system is garbled with tons of mixed libraries. I know this is the extreme, but in terms of keeping it simple for a noob on Linux, this should be a philosophy to follow IMO, until the user is better versed ....


I didn't equate "uber noob" to stupid. I said they don't create .ISO images from DVDs.

My point is that it doesn't make sense to judge "desktop readiness" based on the ability to perform an obscure operation through the GUI.

Hell, before I started using Linux, I didn't even know what an .ISO was.

What is so obscure about making an ISO from a DVD these days ? My 11 year old cousins work with ISO files all the time ! And just because you didn't know what an iso was before using Linux, it doesn't apply to anybody else. I knew what an ISO was when I was using windows, for YEARS... (I'm 35)

Also, when I say uber noob, I'm referring to a Linux noob, not a computer noob. HUGE difference.

You guys are now making excuses, which I knew was bound to happen sooner or later. Making back up copies of cd's and dvd's is old news guys, and it makes TOTAL sense to judge 'DTR' based upon the ability of an OS to perform such a SIMPLE task given the right tools. I mean really, it's almost embarrassing that an emulator type program is the last resort, rather than a native app.

So I guess I'll just wait for someone to prove me wrong.

Doug

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 08:06 PM
wish i could change my vote. I'd choose:
It automatically detects most hardware without the need to hunt down drivers

Why ? Windows can't even do that. :o


actually, that's not true. But most advanced functions of hardware do need drivers to utilize them. However, Windows has always fallen short when it came to codec detection and playback of audio/video. Nightmare...

aysiu
July 16th, 2007, 08:10 PM
What is so obscure about making an ISO from a DVD these days ? My 11 year old cousins work with ISO files all the time ! And just because you didn't know what an iso was before using Linux, it doesn't apply to anybody else. I knew what an ISO was when I was using windows, for YEARS... (I'm 35) And you and your cousins are typical users, and I'm not? Please, ask around. Pick 100 random people on the street and ask them, "Do you create .ISO files from DVDs?" See how many say "yes."

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 08:11 PM
Oh and Aysiu: Are you essentially telling me that I might as well go and install WINE because I'm right about there not being any native Gnome apps which can make a proper dvd iso ?

aysiu
July 16th, 2007, 08:14 PM
Oh and Aysiu: Are you essentially telling me that I might as well go and install WINE because I'm right about there not being any native Gnome apps which can make a proper dvd iso ?
I have no idea. As I said before, I don't rip DVDs to .ISO.

Based on what I've read in these last two pages, it would seem that way.

I definitely concede (again, based on what I've read) that this is a deficiency in desktop Linux for the end user, if it's true. According to this post (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=902054#post902054), it isn't, though.

I do not, however, believe most users even know what an .ISO is, let alone want to rip one from DVD. Most people I know don't even have a DVD burner, so having a DVD. ISO would be pretty useless to them anyway.

I agree with you on the facts and disagree with you on the conclusions drawn from those facts.

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 08:16 PM
And you and your cousins are typical users, and I'm not? Please, ask around. Pick 100 random people on the street and ask them, "Do you create .ISO files from DVDs?" See how many say "yes."

Dude, stop dancing around the subject, it's pathetic ! I'd probably get blank stares from people on the street if I did that, just because it's a silly question ! But I guarantee you that some would say yes. For instance, if I were to go to the local Barnes and Noble book store on Union Square (Manhattan) I GUARANTEE... that a lot of people would know what I'm talking about and say yes.

You give people far less credit than they deserve man. Secondly, I may not be your 'average' user, but my cousins ? They ARE. They're kids whom troll the internet probably looking for pron and such.. but they're savvy, due to the fact that this is the way of things today. It's not like when "I" was a kid, and the amiga or commodore 64 was the rokzors because you could play D&D with text based graphics !

It's a different world man... Wake up and smell the syntax. :)

Edit: In regards to you saying that most people probably don't even have a dvd burner ? Wrong. Everybody today thinks that they're a freeking rock star man, what with all the available software there is ? Every Tom, **** and harry I know, who are the 'average' folk, that I work with, all talk about doing DJ work, and making movies and pretty much everything you see advertised through Apple, are those things which people are now very familiar with.

I'm telling you man, it's NOT the same story as what it was a decade or 2 ago. You really should give people more credit.

aysiu
July 16th, 2007, 08:18 PM
I'm not dancing around the subject.

I'm saying that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.

Should there be a cool GTK app for ripping DVDs to ISO? Sure. Does the lack of one mean that Linux is a disaster on the desktop? No.

mike102282
July 16th, 2007, 08:19 PM
I'm not dancing around the subject.

I'm saying that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.

Should there be a cool GTK app for ripping DVDs to ISO? Sure. Does the lack of one mean that Linux is a disaster on the desktop. No.

agreed!

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 08:26 PM
I'm not dancing around the subject.

I'm saying that you're making a bigger deal out of this than it really is.

Should there be a cool GTK app for ripping DVDs to ISO? Sure. Does the lack of one mean that Linux is a disaster on the desktop? No.

I'm making a big deal out of this because it IS a big deal. Is it a disaster that I might have to use WINE/DVD shrink ? No, probably not. But that's only because I already have experience in using it, and as you've noted, I'm NOT your average user, so if I bork something, I won't be afraid to try and fix it, or re install etc... But for the common end user, yes..it CAN be a disaster. Especially considering that we are now looking at people migrating from Windows, who WERE backing up their DVD's, and now are faced with this cluster F.

So, SHOULD we have a cool gtk app that rips ISO's ? Um, I don't care if it's cool, or cold or hot, how about just ONE that works ?


agreed!

Oh gee mike, I'm shocked. :rolleyes:

aysiu
July 16th, 2007, 08:29 PM
Especially considering that we are now looking at people migrating from Windows, who WERE backing up their DVD's http://k9copy.sourceforge.net/

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 08:41 PM
Yeah, people are now telling me to try it (again). I say again because as I explained in another thread, I tried it back when I first installed Ubuntu, but it didn't really work. I mean, if it did, I wouldn't be having this discussion w/you now :)

So I'm trying to figure out if I should just do dvd shrink or try K9 again. If I install K9 through apt get, or through synaptic and it doesn't work, will uninstalling it through either of those ways totally purge all of the KDE libraries from my system ? I do know about "sudo apt-get remove --purge" but still wonder if it will get rid of EVERY trace.

doug

KIAaze
July 16th, 2007, 08:45 PM
I think "aptitude remove" or "apt-get autoremove" or "remove completely" in synaptic would also work.

If you want to be sure that everything has been removed, look for the files listed in the package:
http://packages.ubuntu.com/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelist&word=k9copy&version=feisty&arch=i386&page=1&number=50

Another solution would be to simply build the program from source in its own folder, that way all you have to do is delete the folder.

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 09:01 PM
To install K9copy:


dvdauthor
kdelibs-data
kdelibs4c2a
libarts1c2a
libavahi-qt3-1
libdvdnav4
liblua50
liblualib50
libmpcdec3
libopenexr2c2a
libpcre3
libqt3-mt
mencoder
vamps

That's no short list of dependencies there.... This is why I want a Gnome native app. Once you start using KDE apps if you're using Gnome or visa versa, things get ugly... fast. I could make this one exception, but if it doesn't work, then I have to get rid of all that crap too.. .and sometimes it's not so easy to get rid of certain things.

Unrelated question: I just tried to : sudo apt-get gedit which told me that "E: invalid operation gedit" why is that invalid ?

yabbadabbadont
July 16th, 2007, 09:11 PM
Unrelated question: I just tried to : sudo apt-get gedit which told me that "E: invalid operation gedit" why is that invalid ?

sudo apt-get install gedit :D

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 09:17 PM
DOH !@ *slaps idiot head*

Cheers. (an I ain't even proper English) :KS

fyllekajan
July 16th, 2007, 09:21 PM
things get ugly... fast.
Things usually do.

KIAaze
July 16th, 2007, 09:25 PM
That's no short list of dependencies there.... This is why I want a Gnome native app. Once you start using KDE apps if you're using Gnome or visa versa, things get ugly... fast. I could make this one exception, but if it doesn't work, then I have to get rid of all that crap too.. .and sometimes it's not so easy to get rid of certain things.

Well, if you install a package through synaptic, when you click on "apply", a window pops up displaying a summary of everything that will be installed or removed.

So why don't you just try it and install k9copy, make a list of everything that will be installed and then remove it completely to see if doing this will also remove all the other things that were installed?

And do a "sudo apt-get clean" afterwards to remove any remaining temporary files.

By the way, here's a demonstration of how aptitude keeps things clean:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/aptitude

If you want to clean your system and keep it clean, I recommend the following:
-localepurge
-deborphan
-gtkorphan
-debfoster

I think it's a little bit sad to not use any KDE applictions since a lot of them are very good.
Porting them all to GTK would certainly be a good thing of course, but it would take some time and given the huge diskspaces available nowadays it doesn't really seem worth doing.

Soarer
July 16th, 2007, 09:26 PM
Well, Sweet Spot, all I can say is that your experience is not the same as mine, or Aysiu's or Mike102282's. That does not make you wrong and us right, or vice versa.

It does however, make us polite, and you something else entirely.

I am genuinely sorry you seem to be having so much trouble with this, but for me it isn't a deal breaker. Maybe it is for you, I can't say.

-Ghost9-
July 16th, 2007, 09:29 PM
Why ? Windows can't even do that. :o


actually, that's not true. But most advanced functions of hardware do need drivers to utilize them. However, Windows has always fallen short when it came to codec detection and playback of audio/video. Nightmare...

because i had a hell of a time getting my ati card to work. and even then it was limited. i know ati is problematic, but I want my hardware to work. hence i'd want to change my vote.

darrenm
July 16th, 2007, 09:34 PM
So I guess I'll just wait for someone to prove me wrong.

Doug

Here you go, I searched high and low for this program and its native GUI too!

just save it in your home dir then run
chmod +x fab_dvd_iso_gui_prog.sh
ln -sf ~/fab_dvd_iso_gui_prog.sh ~/Desktop/

prizrak
July 16th, 2007, 09:57 PM
Go install Nero for Linux.
BTW I'm a huge power user and never ever back up DVDs or CD's. Don't even own a DVD burner. Desktop readiness is individual the sooner you understand it the sooner you can get on with your life.

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 10:08 PM
It does however, make us polite, and you something else entirely..

What am I supposed to make of that statement ? That I'm rude ? Is that your perception of me, that I'm rude because you don't have the same priorities as I do, and I'm stating that for SOME people it's not desktop ready ? Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying ?


Go install Nero for Linux.
BTW I'm a huge power user and never ever back up DVDs or CD's. Don't even own a DVD burner. Desktop readiness is individual the sooner you understand it the sooner you can get on with your life. What a contradictory statement you've made there: Desktop readiness is an individual thing you say, but then go on and say that I should get on with my life. Ironic, because if I could get what I need to work, to work, I WOULD get on with my life, and wouldn't be arguing that (as an individual), it is indeed NOT desktop ready.

Does that make sense ?

darrenm
July 16th, 2007, 10:18 PM
BTW I've just backed up a commercial DVD with that command and mounted it loopback and its worked fine.

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 10:20 PM
BTW I've just backed up a commercial DVD with that command and mounted it loopback and its worked fine.

I'm tempted to try it. Can you tell me if sudo apt-get purge will get rid of it all should it not work ?

Doug

yabbadabbadont
July 16th, 2007, 10:32 PM
I'm tempted to try it. Can you tell me if sudo apt-get purge will get rid of it all should it not work ?

Doug

sudo apt-get --purge remove <insert package name>

Then

sudo apt-get --purge autoremove

To get rid of the automatically installed dependencies.

KIAaze
July 16th, 2007, 10:40 PM
I'm tempted to try it. Can you tell me if sudo apt-get purge will get rid of it all should it not work ?

Doug

In the case of darrenm's script, this should be enough I think:

sudo dpkg --purge libdvdcss2_1.2.9-2medibuntu2+build1_i386.deb
rm libdvdcss2_1.2.9-2medibuntu2+build1_i386.deb
rm fab_dvd_iso_gui_prog.sh

As you can see in the source code, it basically just installs the libdvdcss2_1.2.9-2medibuntu2+build1_i386.deb package and then uses the "dd" command for copying:

#!/bin/bash

setup() {
ROOTPW=`zenity --entry --hide-text --text="Please enter your password" --title="Fab GUI DVD ISO"`

wget -c http://packages.medibuntu.org/pool/free/libd/libdvdcss/libdvdcss2_1.2.9-2medibuntu2+build1_i386.deb
echo $ROOTPW | sudo -S dpkg -i libdvdcss2_1.2.9-2medibuntu2+build1_i386.deb

backupdvd
}

backupdvd() {
OUTFILE=`zenity --file-selection --save --confirm-overwrite --filename=dvd_backup.iso --title="Please choose the output filename"`

CONFIRMYN=`zenity --question --text="Are you sure you wish to backup this DVD?"`

[ $? -eq 0 ] && dd if=/dev/dvd of=$OUTFILE
}

[ ! -f "/usr/lib/libdvdcss.so.2" ] && setup || backupdvd

If you want to know what's in the .deb package, you can just extract it:

dpkg -x <package> <directory>
dpkg --control <package> <directory> (to see the installation and removal scripts)

darrenm
July 16th, 2007, 10:41 PM
I'm tempted to try it. Can you tell me if sudo apt-get purge will get rid of it all should it not work ?

Doug


sudo apt-get remove --purge libdvdcss2 will get rid of the only thing the script pulls down.

Soarer
July 16th, 2007, 11:12 PM
What am I supposed to make of that statement ? That I'm rude ? Is that your perception of me, that I'm rude because you don't have the same priorities as I do, and I'm stating that for SOME people it's not desktop ready ? Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying ?

"Dude, stop dancing around the subject, it's pathetic !"

"You give people far less credit than they deserve man. "

"I'm telling you man, it's NOT the same story as what it was a decade or 2 ago. You really should give people more credit."



If the cap fits...

Just because you and a few people you know think some feature is essential, does not mean everyone does. Of the people who have posted on this thread, you are in a minority thus far. I have never burned an ISO to a DVD in more than 30 years in IT. That doesn't mean I think you are wrong to want to do so, and to want a GUI to do it with, just that it may be not as common a requirement as you seem to think.

prizrak
July 16th, 2007, 11:13 PM
What am I supposed to make of that statement ? That I'm rude ? Is that your perception of me, that I'm rude because you don't have the same priorities as I do, and I'm stating that for SOME people it's not desktop ready ? Or am I misinterpreting what you're saying ?

What a contradictory statement you've made there: Desktop readiness is an individual thing you say, but then go on and say that I should get on with my life. Ironic, because if I could get what I need to work, to work, I WOULD get on with my life, and wouldn't be arguing that (as an individual), it is indeed NOT desktop ready.

Does that make sense ?

You are bitching about Linux (Ubuntu) not being desktop ready and citing examples of your nephews (or was it cousins?) needing a specific functionality. This is not a way to express an individual problem. Had you said "It's not ready for me, I think I still need Windows in some capacity" then it woulda been fine.

If you had created a support thread in the first place (what this just turned into) then you would've gotten the help you needed. From what I can see the only problem was you not having libdvdcss2 installed and DVD protection was preventing you from copying it. You would have the same exact issue on Windows.

FYI saying that because one DE has an application and another does not then Linux is not ready for the desktop is at best misinformed. Perhaps Ubuntu is not ready, but Kubuntu would work fine or perhaps SLED (they have a very good KDE interface). This is why you are not well received here, you are generalizing a very broad range of products here. It's like saying that all Russians drink vodka (being Russian and pretty much averse to alcohol I contradict that statement) it may be true for a certain percentage but not all.

aysiu
July 16th, 2007, 11:24 PM
Dude, stop dancing around the subject, it's pathetic !
It's a different world man... Wake up and smell the syntax. :)


What am I supposed to make of that statement ? That I'm rude ? Is that your perception of me, that I'm rude because you don't have the same priorities as I do, and I'm stating that for SOME people it's not desktop ready ? Yes, you are rude. I think you're well-intentioned, which is why you're not getting an infraction for your rudeness, but calling people's opinions pathetic... yup: rude.

Sweet Spot
July 16th, 2007, 11:52 PM
Yes, you are rude. I think you're well-intentioned, which is why you're not getting an infraction for your rudeness, but calling people's opinions pathetic... yup: rude.

I didn't call YOU pathetic per say.. and I know it's semantics but, I called the action of dancing around a subject, pathetic. In my view, it's a totally different thing. I don't know man, why is it that when someone has an adverse opinion to a majority of people, it is THAT, which is not well received. It's almost as if a person has to absolutely agree with the majority, or they get the reverse psychology treatment, and are told that their personality isn't coming across as well tempered or suitable for such and such an environment ?

Of course my intentions are good, why would I want to create trouble or enemies here ? That's totally not my intention. I like this community a lot and have received help here numerous times as well as having tried to offer it, when possible. I myself, admin/mod a fairly large (in member volume) website, and know that etiquette is important on many levels, and also know that when I speak, I speak from the heart, which isn't always necessarily the way to maintain a seemingly stable internet posture... but in no way shape or form do I believe that I'm being rude.

I think I may be coming off that way because you don't like what I have to say in that it both contradicts you and also rubs you the wrong way because you may not be getting my sardonic sense of humor. For that, I sincerely apologize. I'll maintain a more level headed tone in future posts.

@prizrak: What you say is logical and correct, but not within the context of what I was saying. It's two totally different animals which we're talking about. But Ok, it's over now I guess, as I'm kind of spent on this (mentally). And besides, you're TOTALLY right about this not being the proper place for such a debate.

P.S. For the record, I had already posted a support thread for this, but it was/is going nowhere, and for the simple fact that there really isn't an answer besides WINE/DVD Shrink. Others suggested K9 copy, but it's totally flakey..doesn't work. And I have to retract something I said, in that this is an appropriate place to discuss some of this, since I do believe (still) that if it's Ubuntu Linux which we're speaking about specifically, then no..it's not quite ready. (Oh, and I'll try that code which was suggested a few posts back)

prizrak
July 17th, 2007, 03:32 AM
@prizrak: What you say is logical and correct, but not within the context of what I was saying. It's two totally different animals which we're talking about. But Ok, it's over now I guess, as I'm kind of spent on this (mentally). And besides, you're TOTALLY right about this not being the proper place for such a debate.

P.S. For the record, I had already posted a support thread for this, but it was/is going nowhere, and for the simple fact that there really isn't an answer besides WINE/DVD Shrink. Others suggested K9 copy, but it's totally flakey..doesn't work. And I have to retract something I said, in that this is an appropriate place to discuss some of this, since I do believe (still) that if it's Ubuntu Linux which we're speaking about specifically, then no..it's not quite ready. (Oh, and I'll try that code which was suggested a few posts back)

You said nothing of the idea to use Nero Linux, is that something you are not going to concider or something that personally for you doesn't work? I've played with it for a bit but never tried to copy a DVD.

aysiu
July 17th, 2007, 03:50 AM
Does right-clicking the DVD to make an .ISO out of it not work for you?

Sweet Spot
July 17th, 2007, 04:50 AM
You said nothing of the idea to use Nero Linux, is that something you are not going to concider or something that personally for you doesn't work? I've played with it for a bit but never tried to copy a DVD.

To be honest, at that point, I'd rather use WINE than pay for Nero. Especially since there's no guarantee that Nero would even work without flaw, or at all.


Does right-clicking the DVD to make an .ISO out of it not work for you?

I wish it had been that easy. I did try it, and it actually DID make the iso file, but the encoding was unwatchable. How can I explain... The video was not really visible, since there were green streaks and other visible color artifacts which swooshed all around the screen. You may have seen something similar at one point watching a poorly encoded video.

I've decided though, that WINE/DVD shrink is the way to go now. Thanks for bearing with me...

Doug

aysiu
July 17th, 2007, 04:53 AM
Doug, I'm sorry that Wine with DVDShrink is the only working solution for your situation. If that means you think Linux isn't "ready for the desktop," we'll just have to respectfully disagree with each other. On the bright side, at least you have a working solution to your problem, even if it is a workaround.

Frak
July 17th, 2007, 04:58 AM
I have to agree with aysiu, converting to ISO is not an activity of the average user. Considering all the average user does is browse, edit pics, do office work, and email.

Soarer
July 17th, 2007, 07:08 AM
I have to agree with aysiu, converting to ISO is not an activity of the average user. Considering all the average user does is browse, edit pics, do office work, and email.

With great respect, I am not sure I agree. On this forum we have people with dual core machines with 4 GB RAM, SATA RAID, nVidia graphics etc. We also have people who are trying to install Ubuntu on 32 MB PII machines. We have people with fast, symmetric Internet connections, ADSL, dial-up and some with no Internet access at all.

I am really not sure we can say what an 'average user' is. This is the point I was trying to make to Sweet Spot - 13 year olds in NY are probably not average users, nor are 50 year olds in the UK with 30 years in IT. I don't see an 'average user' on here at all - everyone has something unique about them. That to me shows that Ubuntu is ready for a lot of different desktops, but that most certainly doesn't make it prefect yet.

Just very, very good :)

tgm4883
July 17th, 2007, 07:20 AM
With great respect, I am not sure I agree. On this forum we have people with dual core machines with 4 GB RAM, SATA RAID, nVidia graphics etc. We also have people who are trying to install Ubuntu on 32 MB PII machines. We have people with fast, symmetric Internet connections, ADSL, dial-up and some with no Internet access at all.

I am really not sure we can say what an 'average user' is. This is the point I was trying to make to Sweet Spot - 13 year olds in NY are probably not average users, nor are 50 year olds in the UK with 30 years in IT. I don't see an 'average user' on here at all - everyone has something unique about them. That to me shows that Ubuntu is ready for a lot of different desktops, but that most certainly doesn't make it prefect yet.

Just very, very good :)

Not talking about the average user here. Talking about the average computer user whether it is Linux, Mac or Windows. The average user I know listens to music, dvd's, email, web surf, etc. Not too many programers or DVD Rippers.

darrenm
July 17th, 2007, 07:46 AM
I wish it had been that easy. I did try it, and it actually DID make the iso file, but the encoding was unwatchable. How can I explain... The video was not really visible, since there were green streaks and other visible color artifacts which swooshed all around the screen. You may have seen something similar at one point watching a poorly encoded video.

I've decided though, that WINE/DVD shrink is the way to go now. Thanks for bearing with me...

Doug

Im sure if you try that again with decss installed it will work fine.

mangar
July 17th, 2007, 09:35 AM
There is no such thing as "average user". Ones must-have are others nice-to-have, and vice versa.
80 year old grandmas might have surprisingly complex uses for photo management, genealogy, VoIP, email and IM.
50 years old men might want to track the weather and find routes for their fishing trips, track the stock exchange, synchronize ther PIM/ PDA with various web services, and secretly hoard porn...
13 years old girls might want to manage their music collection, browse the web, play world of warcraft, chat with their friends, create a homepage with music and visual effects, upload games and ringtones to their cellular phones, and etc.

Non of those users think themselves to be extraordinary, yet non of them will fit the "average user" profile. Plus most of their (modest, reasonable) needs won't be satisfied by using the gnu/linux software stack.

steven8
July 17th, 2007, 09:48 AM
I think it is safe to say, after 817 pages and 8164 responses that an OS is only desktop ready when it can handle everything that everyone wants it to do. Fair?

Soarer
July 17th, 2007, 09:51 AM
T
50 years old men might want to track the weather and find routes for their fishing trips, track the stock exchange, synchronize ther PIM/ PDA with various web services, and secretly hoard porn....

I resemble that remark :(

I never go fishing...

:)

steven8
July 17th, 2007, 09:52 AM
Some 50 yr old men openly hoard porn. . .

Miguel
July 17th, 2007, 10:13 AM
First of all, dd does work, because it's a bit by bit copy of the filesystem you are mounting. Second, you might be reading from the wrong device. Three, gnome allows copying ISO's. Four, Nero Linux is a GTk app. Five, if you have successfully copied an unecrypted DVD with dd, you could think that current failures are due to... lack of unencrypting libraries?. And six, there are some CD's and DVD's purposely defective so that bit by bit copying doesn't work.


For the record, desktop readiness should not involve any DD problems wiping the HD on any level... So, nix that.



"UNIX was not designed to stop its users from doing
stupid things, as that would also stop them from
doing clever things."


You can gripe all you want about "nicing X" so it performs better with CFS. You can blame the devs for gnome-cups-icon draining the battery of your laptop. But making ISO's?

prizrak
July 17th, 2007, 01:48 PM
To be honest, at that point, I'd rather use WINE than pay for Nero. Especially since there's no guarantee that Nero would even work without flaw, or at all.
They got a trial, last time I used it, it worked pretty well, didn't see much need for it since Gnome's built in tools do what I want them to.

I wish it had been that easy. I did try it, and it actually DID make the iso file, but the encoding was unwatchable. How can I explain... The video was not really visible, since there were green streaks and other visible color artifacts which swooshed all around the screen. You may have seen something similar at one point watching a poorly encoded video.
It would seem like it's the copy protection system giving you issues, blame MPAA.

Foxmike
July 17th, 2007, 02:38 PM
Yeah, people are now telling me to try it (again). I say again because as I explained in another thread, I tried it back when I first installed Ubuntu, but it didn't really work. I mean, if it did, I wouldn't be having this discussion w/you now :)

So I'm trying to figure out if I should just do dvd shrink or try K9 again. If I install K9 through apt get, or through synaptic and it doesn't work, will uninstalling it through either of those ways totally purge all of the KDE libraries from my system ? I do know about "sudo apt-get remove --purge" but still wonder if it will get rid of EVERY trace.

doug
Man, I do not have the time to read the rest of the thread, but here's a question: does it REALLY matters to purge all those KDE libraries from your system??? If you can make DVD ISOs, that means you got plenty of room... I got installed GNOME and KDE side by side and whatever the DE I am using, I have at least 2 applications of the other DE running. Hell, I've never got ANY library problem, so I don't see your point. You prefer using a Windows application with Wine but you don't want to mix GNOME and KDE libraries??? There's something I don't understand, here...

I do agree that k9copy that is in the repos doesn't work so well. You might give a look here: http://doc.gwos.org/index.php/K9copy , it's a good guide to compile it from source, you'll see, it is very straight forward and it works very well.