Linux Desktop Readiness Thread [Archive] - Page 22

Christmas

January 11th, 2007, 08:45 PM

But, please, how can you say that in the case of commercial software, installing is easier in Linux than in Windows?
No, not necessarily easier. However some examples of commercial software for Linux that I installed came either as a DEB or a binary .RUN file. Running them from a shell is as easy as double clicking on them, at least for me. The examples I have in my mind are UT2004, Nero for Linux, Skype, Opera, Enemy Territory (though it's not commercial). It's well known that installing software (except for the software in repositories) is still a problem and most of the time you have to compile them. But once one learns how to do it, it turns into a simple routine.

As for the dependencies, I found them all in the repositories when I tried to compile newer versions of software. That is unless the manufacturer doesn't provide already packaged DEBs.

Henry Rayker

January 11th, 2007, 08:59 PM

Tarballs are easy, for the user who knows how to use them. And even then, they require much more steps than an .exe in Windows does, but I am getting really bored of repeating myself.

Given that most .exes require you to sit through a wizard, possibly restart your computer, and then get back to what you were doing prior, I'd say the number of steps argument isn't terribly valid. Also, of course you have to see somewhere that you need to perform the
./configure
make
make install
But that goes back to my argument about the user being non-cooperative in their own progress.

Lord Illidan

January 11th, 2007, 09:11 PM

Given that most .exes require you to sit through a wizard, possibly restart your computer, and then get back to what you were doing prior, I'd say the number of steps argument isn't terribly valid. Also, of course you have to see somewhere that you need to perform the
./configure
make
make installBut that goes back to my argument about the user being non-cooperative in their own progress.

But it is more userfriendly, at least for the unitiated. It doesn't take a genius to figure out pressing Next, Next, Next, and reading what's on the screen.

Also, most .exes are pretty standardised. EULA, followed by where you want to install, and then it's copying files and soon ready. And as for restarting the pc, well, that's for drivers. For games, and other programs, unless they are firewalls or anti-virii etc, you don't have to restart.

When I started Linux a few years ago, I didn't know about the ./configure;make;make install thing. Some docs told you to run the configure binary...I tried to do it from the GUI. And it did nothing except open it in a text editor. It was totally unconceivable to me back then that I had to run it in a terminal. I didn't even know where to find it in the menu. And to add insult to injury, I thought of myself as quite a 133t computer user back then, a power windows user.

I remember myself cursing Linux and going back to Windows...though I admit I was disappointed, and kept on trying to get back.

Until my uncle came by and showed me 2 things :

1. That binaries must be preceded with ./ before you run them in the terminal.
2. How to use vi.

The same night I installed the nvidia-drivers and stayed playing tux racer.

And then I took off. But how many people have a Linux guru near by to help? Of course, there wasn't anything like this forum back then.

towsonu2003

January 11th, 2007, 09:12 PM

ive had people tell me that windows is easier because you can just drag and drop folders in explorer to copy them, instead of "whatever way linux does that"

Hmm... Solution for those: drag and drop...
http://kare.fazlamesai.net/arsiv/2006_12_07.png

syxbit

January 11th, 2007, 09:43 PM

I started using linux just over a year ago.
I liked the challenge, although really struggled getting widescreen support, and wireless on my laptop (2 essential things, that should be done automatically IMHO)
we all know about the upgrade fiasco that Ubuntu faced mid-dapper where an update screwed over tons of peoples machines (luckily, I was on holiday during those few days w/o internet access, else it would have messed me up on holiday, and i hardly would want to be fixing that on holiday!)
well, this update fiasco happened again to lots of people. last night!
i got a bunch of updates (xorg, compiz etc..) and rebooted, and was locked out.
From my understanding, the linux-restricted-modules were incompatible with the nvidia-glx.

despite ubuntu's "Linux for humans" motto, these kinds of things can't happen. EVER
i spent all yesterday formatting/reinstalling
This could be b/c ubuntu repo's don't have the latest nvidia driver (which they should!,) and people have to find alternate ways of installing it with unofficial scripts etc..

When have you ever used a mac and had it not boot after an official update ? (notice I'm not talking about windows, as Shuttleworth always says he's aiming more for a MAC like experience (in terms of elegance, boot up, security etc..)

Being a F.O.S. software isn't a valid reason either. as most people don't really pay for their OS, it just comes bundled with the computer.

Don't get me wrong. I love linux, and ubuntu, but i'm just tired of having to fiddle to get things to work. I have a twin bro. and he just uses his computer for basic things. I've told him how great linux is, but he just won't accept the learning curve. Imagine his reaction when I told him an auto update broke xserver ? His reply was "it's not worth all the effort you put in" and "why not just get a MAC, and not have to recompile stuff"
So much for me telling him it's more stable, reliable.

When I first started learning linux, I almost enjoyed fiddling, and the sense of accomplishment was fun, but now, i'm just tired. I'm tired of little things that Mac users NEVER have to worry about. (little things, like if a certain printer will work, or stuff like that)
I need my computer for important stuff. I can't have stuff just breaking. I really don't want to stray away from Ubuntu, but if this happens again, I might just forget it, and buy a MAC

I don't want flaming (all my comps run Ubuntu and nothing else)
I'm just wondering if others enjoy continual quirks, or if their systems are always smooth, or if there are others out there that are getting tired of things breaking

techstop

January 11th, 2007, 09:47 PM

It's unfair to blame ubuntu for an official update breaking unofficial software (compiz) on your system. You know the risks and consequences when you intall compiz. I don't use beryl or compiz etc, and the recent xorg updates *work perfectly*.

Lord Illidan

January 11th, 2007, 09:49 PM

To tell the truth, yes, I do get fedup when things like this happen. Although I've hadn't many problems so far, I dislike having to check if certain products are supported and so on.

That said, everything works for me so far. Yet, I think more testing might be in order for dapper and edgy, at least when it comes to official updates.

cmost

January 11th, 2007, 09:53 PM

Some of us LOVE fiddling with our computers. When something breaks, yes, it's annoying and irritating, but, I always learn something new finding the answer. Too many people expect everything to be done for them instantly and along with lots of hand holding. For these people, this is where Windows and Mac come in. I'm not saying you're one of those people because you've obviously experienced the benefits of Linux and open source. But, you have to realize that with Linux and open source, the vendors aren't helping out that much. Sure nvidia and ATI provide binary drivers. My guess is they do this begrudgingly; not because they want to. Absolutely everything about Linux has been built from the ground up and mostly by volunteers. Development is rapid so that we get to have all the latest cutting edge features as soon as possible. Plus, most of the device drivers had to be reverse engineered and built from scratch too. Now, Linux has better hardware recognition and support in many cases than Windows or Mac users. All of this and we Linux users don't have to pay a dime for our powerful operating system and most of it's software! It would be virtually impossible to accomplish all this without a few bugs here and there. It's no secret that people who use Linux are much more computer savvy than those who don't (generally speaking.) I think this is due to the learning and fiddling these people have to do occasionally to set up their systems the way they want and to fix problems when they occur. It's also because we as open source users and advocates are passionate about our platform and we're willing to put up with the growing pains encountered while using it. Hey, look on the bright side, at least you're not wasting your time cleaning up after the latest virus attack, spyware infestation or blue screen of death!

tim.n9puz

January 11th, 2007, 10:08 PM

I have one system that I love to tinker with. I've "broke" it so many times I've lost count fiddling with stuff, trying the latest and greatest, etc.

I also manage a couple of Ubuntu file servers plus a machine I do a lot of my own work with. I rarely do any significant upgrades to those boxes unless something's broken. Unless you're actually experiencing a real problem I don't undertand why you would rush to change a machine that you depend on for real work.

Tim

techstop

January 11th, 2007, 10:13 PM

You should always install security updates though...If the updates are kernel or xorg related, I tend to wait a few days in case there are any uncaught bugs. I did this for the updates a few months ago where everyone's xorg broke, and thankfully a revised update was released and my system didn't get broken. So, it pays to be a little cautions (wait a couple of days before installing significant updates) but not too cautious (not installing updates at all).

matthew

January 11th, 2007, 10:13 PM

Since this really isn't a support request but more of a rant I'm moving the thread to a more appropriate location.

Henry Rayker

January 11th, 2007, 10:22 PM

I didn't have a linux guru to help me either, but I read the INSTALL file in the tarball (capitalization is theirs, not for emphasis...the filename tends to be in all caps; read: I'm not trying to be crass). The only hangups I ever encountered were: the linux headers package not being installed (but the ./configure returned an error telling me as much) and the build-essential package not being installed (the error I got from that wasn't so clear...I really wish this would be installed by default).

ffi

January 11th, 2007, 10:22 PM

well, this update fiasco happened again to lots of people. last night!
i got a bunch of updates (xorg, compiz etc..) and rebooted, and was locked out.
From my understanding, the linux-restricted-modules were incompatible with the nvidia-glx.

I agree it shouldn't happen but things like this are actually quite easy to solve by changing the driver in xorg.conf and I believe in the future (+/- 6 months) these things will never happen again as the new xorg 7.3 will allow both hotplugging and disaster recovery (ie. try to get at least some graphical display running automatically, so you won't be thrown back to the commandline)

ffi

January 11th, 2007, 10:24 PM

I don't want to read, I want to click. Easy = being able to doing something without having to go through documentation or courses.

jem7v

January 11th, 2007, 10:29 PM

For the upgrade that caused you so much grief, I would definitely glare at all the hardware manufacturers who refuse to release the source code for their drivers, thereby frequently making Linux's hardware support less than awesome. I agree that practices such as theirs make widestream Linux usage less likely... particularly when things happen like easy-to-install repository drivers don't work as well as they more complex drivers downloaded from the NVidia site.

With stuff like Compiz, though, when I was installing it a while back the very first page I read about installing it said, and I quote, "Xgl and AIGLX are both VERY alpha software and should not be used on production machines. They do have bugs and do not always play nice with other programs. You have been warned." (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager) And these forums contain plenty of threads with names such as "Beryl broke my computer!" or "Compiz messed up X" or things like that. So I always approach Compiz and the likes with a bit of wariness to start with. After all, it's just a gadget to make things look prettier - it's not part of a default install. Yet. *eyes Feisty, but reminds self that it's not going to be considered one of the Super-Stable-Long-Term-Support releases anyway*

And by the way, you Do pay for Windows and OSX - the price is included in the computer. It just isn't a seperate item on your reciept, unless you're lucky enough to be buying a custom computer from a local company that doesn't install Windows if you ask them not to. Here's some more info about that.
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Licensing/Microsoft/WinRefunds/
http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237
http://www.networkworld.com/news/2006/110706-dell-windows.html
http://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040

But yeah, I hate quirks and tinkering to make sure it works... I'm with you there. Of course, when my system was still riddled with the bullet holes of multiple OSs, desktop managers, composite managers, distro upgrades, old hardware, etc, it required a lot more tweaking than it does now, post-clean-re-install.

BuffaloX

January 11th, 2007, 10:35 PM

Arh common now, this was an easy fix.
If you can't handle these incidents, you have several options,
and you only have to do one of these:

1: Don't use proprietary drivers,
2: Disable automatic updates.
3: Wait a couple of days before updating.
4: Do a rollback

( I actually don't know how to do a rollback myself, but I've seen it mentioned many times )

I agree it would be better if the updater detected incompatible drivers, and warned that a driver update would be needed before or after updating.

I look forward to see how the Ubuntu team will handle this, when proprietary drivers are included as standard with Feisty.

Henry Rayker

January 11th, 2007, 10:36 PM

I don't want to read, I want to click. Easy = being able to doing something without having to go through documentation or courses.

Even Windows uses documentation...but as I've said before, learning to use something new requires some input on your part. I never went through courses or formal documentation to install anything; they're called installation instructions...

koenn

January 11th, 2007, 10:42 PM

I'm tired of little things that Mac users NEVER have to worry about. (little things, like if a certain printer will work, or stuff like that)
I need my computer for important stuff. I can't have stuff just breaking. I really don't want to stray away from Ubuntu, but if this happens again, I might just forget it, and buy a MAC

You're absolutely right. Buy a MAC.
seriously.
If you're serious about "I need my computer for important stuff. I can't have stuff just breaking.", then
1- you should have know better that to use edgy. It was announced as "rather more experimental" .If you really need your computer, this is not an option
2- as techstop said (post #2) : you can't blame ubuntu for breaking stuff that's not part of the official distribution. You knew the risk when you added additional repositories.

By a MAC. or stick with LTS releases and don't add unsupported repo's if you really need that computer to be available at all times.

tageiru

January 11th, 2007, 10:42 PM

His reply was "it's not worth all the effort you put in" and "why not just get a MAC, and not have to recompile stuff"
That is nonsensical.

When I first started learning linux, I almost enjoyed fiddling, and the sense of accomplishment was fun, but now, i'm just tired. I'm tired of little things that Mac users NEVER have to worry about. (little things, like if a certain printer will work, or stuff like that)
I need my computer for important stuff. I can't have stuff just breaking. I really don't want to stray away from Ubuntu, but if this happens again, I might just forget it, and buy a MAC
I own a Mac and believe me, they have their own little quirks. Funny that you should mention printers as Linux and Mac OS X have the same printer system, CUPS.

Compiz and nvidia? Sounds like you are using unofficial stuff for the core graphical system. That is stupid regardless of platform.

manmower

January 11th, 2007, 10:46 PM

I see your point, but in this particular case I think there were less drastic solutions than format & reinstall that could have helped. I agree 100% with your criticism though: Linux still has a long way to go in that department.

Pobega

January 11th, 2007, 10:49 PM

Can't you just recompile previous updates or something? I thought there was a way to do that.

Brunellus

January 11th, 2007, 10:50 PM

Hendrixski

January 11th, 2007, 10:51 PM

You're absolutely right. Buy a MAC.
seriously.
If you're serious about "I need my computer for important stuff. I can't have stuff just breaking.", then
1- you should have know better that to use edgy. It was announced as "rather more experimental" .If you really need your computer, this is not an option
2- as techstop said (post #2) : you can't blame ubuntu for breaking stuff that's not part of the official distribution. You knew the risk when you added additional repositories.

By a MAC. or stick with LTS releases and don't add unsupported repo's if you really need that computer to be available at all times.

Mac's are great little machines. Then again, if you want to get business stuff done with Linux, and you don't want it to have the instability that Ubuntu gets once in a while, then use Red Hat Enterprise Linux, or Suse Enterprise Linux. that is what they're made for.

But don't leave the Ubuntu forums, because, you know, we like you to stay here.

Lord Illidan

January 11th, 2007, 10:51 PM

Hendrixski

January 11th, 2007, 10:55 PM

to the OP:

You played with fire and you got burnt. Compiz, XGL, AIGLX, Beryl, and the like are experimental software under heavy development. They are NOT considered stable by any means, least of all by their own developers.

You're suffering from a very bad case of Beta Fever. You're not helped any by your insistence that the official devs bend over backwards to support experimental, third-party software.

Apple OSX's stunning visuals are official and officially-distributed. They are NOT some third-party experimental add-on. They are explicitly supported by Apple (the core developer and distributor). They are tested thoroughly, but only guaranteed to run correctly on approved (yes, Apple) hardware.

There is no comparison.

When sabdfl says he might aim for a "mac-like" experience, I don't think he means "Ubuntu will use unstable desktop chrome in a vain attempt to *look* like Apple OSX." He means: "a functional desktop operating system that is NOT Microsoft Windows."

You are right. But if we don't make some of the eye candy become standard, to compete with Windows Vista, we will find ourselves behind the market. XGL, Beryl, LG3D, Compiz, etc. etc. have to get stable, and get accepted if we are to compete with flashier operating systems.

Even UNIX has flashier stuff... Have you seen Solaris 10? JDS (Java desktop Server) is pretty sweet. And it's not as unstable as the Linux 3D desktops.

Brunellus

January 11th, 2007, 10:59 PM

You are right. But if we don't make some of the eye candy become standard, to compete with Windows Vista, we will find ourselves behind the market. XGL, Beryl, LG3D, Compiz, etc. etc. have to get stable, and get accepted if we are to compete with flashier operating systems.

Even UNIX has flashier stuff... Have you seen Solaris 10? JDS (Java desktop Server) is pretty sweet. And it's not as unstable as the Linux 3D desktops.
Sun's certainly come a long way since the days of CDL.

But given that my employer only now switched to WinXP from Win2k, eye candy is overrated as a selling point.

(I should start developing this into an essay. "Ugly is beautiful." h'm)

rioghal

January 11th, 2007, 11:00 PM

tageiru

January 11th, 2007, 11:09 PM

Even UNIX has flashier stuff... Have you seen Solaris 10? JDS (Java desktop Server) is pretty sweet. And it's not as unstable as the Linux 3D desktops.
Uhm yes I have, and there was not even a hint of 3d accelerated effects anywhere, just a GNOME desktop with a sun theme.

marx2k

January 11th, 2007, 11:28 PM

I'm with you over here. I love the command line. But, please, how can you say that in the case of commercial software, installing is easier in Linux than in Windows?

In Linux you have to choose between installing a program by either:

Running a binary file (.sh)
Using .deb
Using synaptic
Using .rpm
Uncompressing a .tar.gz file and running the binary file inside
Uncompressing a .tar.gz file and compiling from source, using a mixture of Synaptic, Google and the internet to find dependencies.
Using .autopackageIn Windows, all you have to do is click an .exe file...

I can't tell you how many times a Windows installer package (especially for DRIVERS) didn't work. And then you thank the lord baby jesus christ of latterday saints for the amount of differrent methods you have for linux installations.

FuturePilot

January 11th, 2007, 11:32 PM

I think at some point eye candy like Beryl or Compiz etc. need to come with Ubuntu. Maybe eye candy really is just a selling point, but I want an OS to look nice. I don't know about everyone else, but staring at something that looks like Windows 98 would drive me insane. All that gray square cut windows and buttons and Ugghh. It makes a strong point that you can run something like Beryl on hardware that would never be able to support Vista.

phossal

January 11th, 2007, 11:46 PM

I decided ahead of time what things I absolutely needed a computer for, and which hardware I wanted (wg111v2, ATI TV Wonder 200, HP Brother 1440). I knew I needed Java, eclipse, and Tomcat. I knew I did not need an office suite, or any games.

Configuring my hardware was a pain. Working through the process, I ended up writing a tutorial on at least one of the pieces, which had earned a reputation as being finicky at best.

Once I got what I wanted, though, there was nothing left to configure. I figured out a way to package everything I need installed along with a script to install it. Now it's smooth sailing. Maintaining my Ubuntu machines is significantly easier than doing the same on my Windows machines. I have a half dozen different Ubuntu machines all set up identically. There is no real configuration anymore. No "fixing things".

I don't push any boundaries, and things don't break. If you know what you expect before you dive in, and you're not just "searching" for reasons to use Ubuntu, you can end up being 100% satisfied. Ubuntu certainly isn't for everyone, but it is possible to end up with a system that does some useful job beyond supplying hobbyists with technical challenges..

syxbit

January 11th, 2007, 11:49 PM

I'm glad most responses haven't seen my thread as a flame war
thanks!
I'm not going to leave Ubuntu, but it might make me want to at least dual boot, for those times when I don't have time to fix stuff (if it broke while I was on holiday, I could just use Tiger/XP for the rest of the week, and wait to fix it when I get home)
I don't think xserver broke because of compiz. I think it was the latest 9746 nvidia driver together with linux-restricted-modules (not positive though)
I'm expecting (hoping for) a lot in Feisty. (but it looks like Fiesty+1 might finally fix xserver troubles)
The good thing is that Linux only keeps getting better. Problem is, I wonder if it's like that joke on I.Q. (the film about Albert Einstein) where if you get 50% closer to your goal on each step, mathematically, you never reach your goal.

fiesty is going to include either compiz or beryl out of the box. That will fix some problems, but they need to also include the latest nvidia/ATI drivers (not just a working old version) as this would fix many headaches, and remove need for too much unofficial stuff (repo's, .deb's etc..)

FLPCGuy

January 11th, 2007, 11:51 PM

Well, actually, supporting win9x would be rather easy once we have a properly set up disk image; all we'd have to do is modify the initrd to mount the filesystem as fat32, not ntfs. However, as I was saying, fat32 has a 4 GB file limit, which could be a problem, given that ubuntu itself takes up nearly 3 GB, and 4 GB would have to be enough to store ubuntu, extra applications the user installs, and the user's files in the home directory. Of course, we could probably just symlink /home off to the fat32 partition to save space, but then we'd have the issue of the lack of support for symlinks and filesystem permissions in fat32

Perhaps I'm missing something, but the 4GB limit is the size of any SINGLE file. Why must you plop everything from the CD onto the disk as one file before extracting it? Surely there are ways to install from a CD that don't require copying the entire CD as one file.

FuturePilot

January 11th, 2007, 11:57 PM

Oooo! Feisty is going to come with eye candy!? When is it coming out. I want it *drools*:p

migla

January 11th, 2007, 11:57 PM

Ever? I'd say forever is way more time than is actually needed to iron out the wrinkles.

Enverex

January 11th, 2007, 11:59 PM

Oddly enough I've not had many problems with Ubuntu (yet).

1st issue: Totem doesn't want to seem to play any embedded WAV or MP3 files. It'll play them from it's GUI but not inside browsers (no errors, no nothing). Weird.
2nd issue: Ubuntu ships with old and broken nVidia drivers... not sure why they've done that, heh.

But that's pretty much it.

phossal

January 12th, 2007, 12:04 AM

Problem is, I wonder if it's like that joke on I.Q. (the film about Albert Einstein) where if you get 50% closer to your goal on each step, mathematically, you never reach your goal.

My father and grandfather both tell (two different versions of) a funny story regarding a bet my grandfather made with my father as a child. For $20 - my father's savings for some ridiculous period of time - my grandfather asked if it was possible for an aunt to reach the wall she stood facing if, with each step, she covered half the distance.

My father is a smart guy. You don't reach the wall by covering half of the distance with each step, and my father knew it. Of course, he was wrong, and my grandfather gleefully took his $20.

syxbit

January 12th, 2007, 12:09 AM

My father and grandfather both tell (two different versions) of a funny story regarding a bet my grandfather made with my father as a child. For $20 - my father's savings for some ridiculous period of time - my grandfather asked if it was possible for an aunt to reach the wall she stood facing if, with each step, she covered half the distance.

My father is a smart guy. You don't reach the wall by covering half of the distance with each step, and my father knew it. Of course, he was wrong, and my grandfather gleefully took his $20.

There's a difference between the mathematical world, and the real world.
It's still a valid theory though IMHO

jem7v

January 12th, 2007, 12:13 AM

I think we also have to remember that Mac developers have the luxury of working with a fairly narrow set of hardware. They aren't trying to write an OS that has to support a thousand different video cards, motherboards, sound cards, processor architectures, etc. Is it going to be any surprise, then, that there's less fiddling around to do with it just to make your computer works? That's the one thing I think would be nice about a Mac.

Sure, most of the same hardware we use in Linux works fine (more or less) in Windows, but that's because the manufacturers tend to write drivers for Windows and ignore the Linux community.

Frak

January 12th, 2007, 12:19 AM

No, What Tuxcantfly means is, when Ubuntu is installed it creates a file for the "Hard Drive", well on XP, which is NT, you can have an enormous "Hard Drive", but FAT32 requires the file, or as Windows sees it as an app, to be 4GB or less, so the "Hard Drive" would be 4GB limit.
But why not make two or three of those and make Ubuntu just mount them on first start up?

tito2502

January 12th, 2007, 12:20 AM

Mac OS X has a clear advantage, uniform hardware. If Ubuntu was for uniform hardware I'm sure it would be the best and easiest OS around.

phossal

January 12th, 2007, 12:22 AM

There's a difference between the mathematical world, and the real world.
It's still a valid theory though IMHO

Yeah, I've heard that before - not while studying the calculus, but probability. And which theory? By the way, I just think it's a funny story about parenting more than anything, I didn't have a point.

macogw

January 12th, 2007, 12:25 AM

we all know about the upgrade fiasco that Ubuntu faced mid-dapper where an update screwed over tons of peoples machines (luckily, I was on holiday during those few days w/o internet access, else it would have messed me up on holiday, and i hardly would want to be fixing that on holiday!)
well, this update fiasco happened again to lots of people. last night!
i got a bunch of updates (xorg, compiz etc..) and rebooted, and was locked out.
From my understanding, the linux-restricted-modules were incompatible with the nvidia-glx.

When have you ever used a mac and had it not boot after an official update ? (notice I'm not talking about windows, as Shuttleworth always says he's aiming more for a MAC like experience (in terms of elegance, boot up, security etc..)

Those problems were caused by nVidia and ATi's faulty binary drivers. If you use open source nVidia drivers, it doesn't happen. Blame the bad drivers. Since they are closed-source, devs can't know if they'll be compatible with new kernels. Obviously, they aren't always compatible. nVidia is good about fixing their drivers soon after an incident, though. They can't just NOT put out the new kernels though, or else that new hardware or new camera or whatever you got for Christmas/Hannukah/Festivus/Wintereenmas/Yule may be Linux-compatible--with the most recent kernel, but not with your outdated kernel. To get support for things with new drivers, you need the new kernel. Unfortunately, nVidia and ATi's drivers don't keep up so well. If we had good open source drivers, huzzah! This wouldn't happen. As soon as Nouveau gets done, nVidia will be lovely, but we'll still be waiting for ATi to shape up.

As for Macs with bad updates, I've never owned a Mac. However, a kid in my dorm has one. Every now and then it pops up a "firmware update" so he installs it. Then it doesn't boot properly and he runs into these same sort of problems. After using his roommate's not-updated Mac, he finds an explanation and instructions to fix it, and follow them. After a few hours, his Mac is working again. He just tried Ubuntu and loves it.

tito2502

January 12th, 2007, 12:26 AM

The problem is learning what you already thought you knew.

Taking a Windows user to Linux is like taking somebody who has never used computers to Windows.

Daveski

January 12th, 2007, 12:34 AM

I think we also have to remember that Mac developers have the luxury of working with a fairly narrow set of hardware.

Absolutely I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Mac OS for Mac hardware - it's bound to work unless Apple have seriously screwed up.

For more than a decade now Microsoft has been dictating to the PC hardware manufacturers how to design their kit, and please remember everyone that there is an HCL (Hardware Compatibility List) and Microsoft may still refuse to support you if you have any hardware not on this list. I believe that Linux still supports more hardware than ANY other OS.

Returning to the original post, some of you may remember that XP SP2 screwed up a great deal of XP machines, and more recently IE 7 has 'broken' many websites. Microsoft is not immune to some of the problems being discussed about Ubuntu.

Finally, we should remember that Businesses are trying to make as much money as they can, so hardware manufacturers will have Windows compatibility as a key motivator until Windows falls out of the mainstream. Linux is a great OS, but cannot compete with Windows unless it were motivated mostly by money - and thank goodness that it is not.

FLPCGuy

January 12th, 2007, 12:35 AM

If you are planning to target WIN98 hardware (I agree, a very good idea), you should note that many of those machines will only have 32 Meg of RAM installed -- some might have 64M but hardly any will have more than 100M (for all its bad points, WIN98 was quite memory efficient). You would probably have to provide a less resource-hungry window manager than GNOME or KDE.

XFCE might be squeezed into 64 meg (I don't think there is much hope for running it on 32M) but it wouldn't leave much left for the larger apps like Mozilla or the GIMP. XFCE4 is compliant with FreeDesktop.Org, so this would permit your maintainers to make use of the GNOME (or KDE) themes and menus.

IceWM might be a good choice as it can be themed to appear like Windows (98 or XP). But IceWM does not provide all of the functionality of the other desktops (IceWM is not a full-fledged desktop, just a WM) -- particularly, you would be losing drag-n-drop menu editing capabilities. Also, IceWM is not compliant with the FreeDesktop.org standards, so you can not share resources (menus, themes, backgrounds) with other window managers. IceWM might be the best choice, but it would require more work for the maintainers.

I am not trying to discourage anyone, nor do I wish to start a desktop flamewar. The above is just my opinion of something you might consider if you are targeting WIN98 hardware.

Regards.
I agree Win9x is quite memory efficient compared to X-windows. But I haven't seen a PC with less than 128MB of RAM in 8 or 9 years. Probably most of the 98SE (OSR2) and up PC's will have 128MB. By 1999 and WinME, maybe half had 256. I wouldn't enjoy running Linux and X-windows on less than 256 MB with GNOME or KDE.

XFCE is certainly better but probably not enough to make 128 very usable, I'd rather require a $20-$30 snap-in memory upgrade. Anything old enough to have only 32MB of RAM will probably have less than 4 MB of video memory as well which may exclude X-Windows VGA anyway. 64MB PC's typically had 300MHz or less CPU's, hardly worth fooling with these days. I've given hundreds of them away during corporate and school upgrades. They are literally not worth the time it takes to fix or maintain them. You can pick up a used 500 MHz PC easily for around $100 without a monitor and have a good chance it will have WinME or unpatched Win2000 on it. It would still be easier to install Linux than install the updates for either of those.

So, now we would need a routine to figure out exactly what kind of memory is present and whether there is a slot open, then advise what to get before continuing the install. Many memory chips are not labeled by any industry standard. There are various sizes of SIMM in 33, 66 MHz, PC100, and PC133, 168-pin DIMM 133 MHz, DDR in various speeds to 400 MHz, or 240-pin DIMM DDR2 266 to 800 MHz to name a half a dozen choices).

LookTJ

January 12th, 2007, 12:37 AM

you can't blame anything or anyone but yourself for whatever you're doing.

Ubuntu isn't perfect, Nothing is perfect on this Earth.

doobit

January 12th, 2007, 12:48 AM

I had a version of Linux running quite well on a 233MMX laptop with 64MB of RAM and 2MB video RAM using Fluxbox and JWM with all of the apps I needed in a 50MB package.

http://www.damnsmalllinux.org

macogw

January 12th, 2007, 12:49 AM

That is nonsensical.

I own a Mac and believe me, they have their own little quirks. Funny that you should mention printers as Linux and Mac OS X have the same printer system, CUPS.

Compiz and nvidia? Sounds like you are using unofficial stuff for the core graphical system. That is stupid regardless of platform.

hold up! I can determine if a printer will work based on if it says it'll work with a Mac? Sweet! All I knew was "HPs work" and I hate HP's customer service.

Daveski

January 12th, 2007, 12:50 AM

By the way, I started this thread out of frustration because in several threads in the past two days members have posted (unsolicited) remarks like "Windows is easier than Linux." I don't believe this forum is any more "obsessed" with Windows than other Linux forums (and I frequent Linux Questions). The word windows appears 163,000 times in Linux Questions (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Alinuxquestions.org+windows&btnG=Google+Search) and only 116,000 times in the Ubuntu Forums (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=site%3Aubuntuforums.org+windows&btnG=Google+Search). The Linux Questions forum is older, but the Ubuntu Forums are far livelier (get more posts in the Ubuntu Cafe per hour than the Linux Questions General forum gets).

I agree. Can we have a Forum here where mentioning Microsoft or any of their products is banned?

doobit

January 12th, 2007, 12:54 AM

I think we need to have more Linux on the Desktop Evangelist out there, just like many other major software and hadrware companies have evangelists who go around and hold seminars and short courses to teach people how good Linux and FOSS is. Somebody should be willing to fund that. I am certainly willing to do it, if I can make a living at it.

sweemeng

January 12th, 2007, 01:24 AM

windows is not easier, but it is more familiar to most people.

in a way linux is not easier, but the tools rocks.

syxbit

January 12th, 2007, 01:36 AM

i don't think working on a MAC guarantees it'll work on Ubuntu.
I'm still struggling to get my brother 2170N to work!!!

misha680

January 12th, 2007, 01:48 AM

I think in theory if it works on a mac you should be able to get the "ppd" file from the mac driver and use it in Ubuntu. However, I've only tried this with one printer (although it worked beautifully for it).

Misha

i don't think working on a MAC guarantees it'll work on Ubuntu.
I'm still struggling to get my brother 2170N to work!!!

TheOtherLinuxFreak

January 12th, 2007, 01:50 AM

before i had linux my pc was SLOW!! i was ready to throw it out and buy a new one but since i put Xubuntu in my pc, i no longer want a new pc as much! window$ wasnt even useble on my pc because of the anti virus etc......

333mhz
256mb ram

syxbit

January 12th, 2007, 02:44 AM

I think in theory if it works on a mac you should be able to get the "ppd" file from the mac driver and use it in Ubuntu. However, I've only tried this with one printer (although it worked beautifully for it).

Misha

you should write a HOWTO about that.
could be really useful

emarkay

January 12th, 2007, 02:51 AM

Eye candy? 3D desktops? Nvidia drivers? All bovine fecal matter IMHO. I have now installed Ubuntu Dapper on 5 PC's and here's my 2 euros on that...

After getting the 71 updates, and deleting the games and then installing Automatix, and streamlining the desktop to a black screen, and manually installing Seamonkey/Mozilla (it's still not in the repos) I have a functional machine for the Internet. Maybe 2 hours down and off I go.

Now remember, I am not a typical "poweruser of Windows' dog and pony show Office progs, nor do I see the need for all the "media center" crap (I plan to never have to boot up my TV, or stereo, or car...) but for simple tasks like mailing a letter, I still haven't found a way in Ubuntu to get a simple address book to use to I can format and print envelopes.

While HP has provded a driver so I can print a few different resolutions, they still don't have the scanner or copier commands implemented. Sure that's apparently a volunteer project at HP, but surely someone could spend more time assisting something like that than worrying why someone's Ipod won't display frilly graphics while playing in Ubuntu...

I have a legacy Intel integrated main board video card, and while I get the basic resolution, no video acceleration is provided. Why not go back and look at some more popular old hardware devices that have a substantial userbase (ATI, Intel, modems, game ports, etc) and are no longer supported by the OEM and get them added to the base package.

I have 2 different PCMCIA wireless cards - none work in Ubuntu. There's no "autodetect" to tell me what additional driver or software I need to get. Even if I have the install disk it's not got GNU/Linux driver on it. Why not take a few days to get a list of the most popular wireless cards and adaptors and then pressure the OEMS to release drivers or ask some of our genius Linux geeks to write some.

From a standpoint of "ready for the world" the "Supreme Benevolent Dictator" needs to put more pressure on developers to fix the cracks in the foundation before pursuing more fluffy screenslaver type things...

The educated masses will flock to Ubuntu when the message boards are free from basic set up problems like the above, and maybe offers an "official" representative there to "speak for the product"...

Oh and as for the "tinkering" - that's what the Terminal is for - beyond that if it's designed as a gooey, than please try to keep it as such......

MRK

WalmartSniperLX

January 12th, 2007, 03:00 AM

After using ubuntu and suse for a while, I personally think linux is much easier than windows since I dont even touch the darn os unless Im working away from home. ;)

medley

January 12th, 2007, 04:28 AM

OK, so I really, really, really want to love Linux. But you know what? I CAN'T!!! I have been "into computers" for almost 25 years, and am an IT professional. I started out in a mainframe environment, then evolved to desktops/servers. So I'm not a rookie. However, I'm also not a *nix veteran. That being said, about 4 years ago I acquired and installed Red Hat 6 or thereabouts. It was cool, pretty, etc, but far from easy to use. Eventually, out of frustration, I shelved it.

About a month ago, I thought I'd give Linux another shot, figuring it had probably evolved significantly in that length of time, especially with such a dedicated user and development community. So, I downloaded and installed Kubuntu Edgy. "Very nice", thought I. It detected absolutely all of my hardware, and configured itself beautifully. "Wow! Times have changed", I said to myself. A very pleasant experience, especially in comparison to my foray into Red Hat in the past.

However, I have to say that in the last month I have concluded that, despite all of the progress and wishful thinking of the Linux fanbase, it is doomed to never become a mainstay in the average household until it "just works". Until such a time as a cry for help from someone needing assistance makes absolutely no mention of "checking kernel-source", or checking the configuration of line X in xorg.conf for the value "foo", Linux on the average desktop is simply not going to happen. No one should ever have to compile anything! Nor should they have to ensure that the package they want to install was built for their distribution. These are deal-breakers, folks. If a guy like me can't figure out what the hell "conflict:nvidia-kernel-src" means and why I can't get GLX working again when it was working fine for a month, your average soccer mom will never touch it. Can you imagine if the typical answer to a troubleshooting exercise in MS Windows was something like "well, you need to verify that your hosts file includes the loopback address for localhost"? This is standard fare in the Linux world. That's great if your a compgeek. But for Mrs. Smith, it just won't cut it, gang.

After I'd installed Kubuntu, the first time I tried to play an MP3 on Amarok, it said to me "your current configuration does not support MP3 playback. Would you like to install MP3 support?" I answered 'yes', it went out and fetched it, installed it and it 'just worked'. This is how it has to be. To contrast, 30% of the time when I launch Adept, I wait 20 seconds watching the cute animated cursor, then.....nothing. I frequently have to launch it three times before kdesu comes up. This, folks, just simply won't do. No error message...nada.

I know Linux, in all its flavors, is free. That is the beauty of it. Philosophically, I love it. And when it works I love it. However, we are dreaming if we think that it will ever compete with Windows for the public's affection if we keep going the way we are. 15 distributions; no error messages to speak of; dependancies that mean nothing to the average human, but if corrupted can break a system. The list goes on. ](*,)

<Rant Done>

<Now asking hat in hand>Can someone please help me determine why the hell Adept fails indicates that nvidia-glx is installed, but in the details it says conflict:nvidia-glx-src and replaces:nvidia-glx-src, and GLX fails?

(and I'm hoping the answer isn't that I have to compile my kernel, or some such nonesense)

Thanks, Phil

macogw

January 12th, 2007, 04:32 AM

While HP has provded a driver so I can print a few different resolutions, they still don't have the scanner or copier commands implemented. Sure that's apparently a volunteer project at HP, but surely someone could spend more time assisting something like that than worrying why someone's Ipod won't display frilly graphics while playing in Ubuntu...

I have 2 different PCMCIA wireless cards - none work in Ubuntu. There's no "autodetect" to tell me what additional driver or software I need to get. Even if I have the install disk it's not got GNU/Linux driver on it. Why not take a few days to get a list of the most popular wireless cards and adaptors and then pressure the OEMS to release drivers or ask some of our genius Linux geeks to write some.
Part 1: it should work. I have an HP scan/copy/print, and it works perfectly. Did you try using XSane as your scanning app? It should be installed by default under graphics.

Part 2: Those install discs should work fine. The Windows drivers on them (if you open the disc in Nautilus you'll see all the files, the .inf ones are the drivers) can be combined with ndiswrapper to make it work on Linux.

Blondie

January 12th, 2007, 04:40 AM

Even though I've literally only been using Linux for about a week now, I'm already preferring it to Windows in every way. I completely agree with your points. But here's the thing - like most people here, I actually have dealt with Windows not pre-installed, and while it's just as simple to install as any Linux distro (partition your hard drive, configuring some hardware, etc.) the difference is time. I've done a fresh install of Ubuntu on my desktop and laptop now, and each time, it's taken no more than 15 minutes. With Windows XP, I recall it taking upwards of 45 minutes. Vista is a bit faster, at about 20-30 minutes, but I'm sure that bare bones distros like Slackware are probably mere minutes to compile and install.

The fastest full featured distro I've installed was Freespire. It took ten minutes. I'm not sure what mojo they put in it to make that happen. Maybe it's something to do with ReiserFS.

MetalMusicAddict

January 12th, 2007, 04:42 AM

*sigh* So many people here don't have a clue how things work in linux shooting their mouth off. ](*,) It's just too much to quote and address.

shane634

January 12th, 2007, 04:46 AM

rai4shu2

January 12th, 2007, 04:55 AM

Even mp3 files won't play in Windows by default. If you bought a pre-loaded system with Windows, chances are that they paid the standard license fee for mp3 capability. Ubuntu doesn't do that because everything in it is free.

amendt

January 12th, 2007, 05:00 AM

I just updated my blog at http://amendt.blogspot.com/ Linux will win the desktop. Stop buying Nvidia Cards if their Linux drivers don't work. I always buy Intel first Nvidia second and ATI third.;)

IYY

January 12th, 2007, 05:01 AM

You can't honestly expect solutions for your problems in a thread with this title and content.

medley

January 12th, 2007, 05:10 AM

Phil,

I can understand a good rant as much as the next guy. Seems you had some Nvidia problems. Could you tell us your card and system info please? I am in no way a compgeek, but I have been using Ubuntu with little or no problems since last year. Yep I was a lifelong Windows guy before that, and I still fix all the family Windows problems and keep up on security and what not. That said. Lets be honest here. This is not Windows. It is different though not nearly "too hard" to learn. Even for the soccer moms among us. I had zero experience with Linux before Ubuntu. Now I am comfortable and find at least weekly something my Windows box couldn't do.

So please if you need help with Nvidia let us know. With helpful info by the way ( error messages, card, driver, steps taken ). We will be glad to help. Don't bash the whole thing because it didn't work like Windows please.

A quick search shows nvidia-glx-src as a debian package not a ubuntu package. I couldn't find it in synaptic either. Ubuntu does use .deb packages though it is not the same as Debian Linux.

Fair enough; and honestly I'm not bitching about Linux not being Windows. What I love about Linux is it's capabilities and the truly kick-*** apps that are available. I just feel it won't become mainstream until the underlying OS and its unwieldiness are completely transparent. Apple seems to have figured this out, although granted at the cost of a very proprietary platform. But from a usability, Linux will have to match Windows to win.

Re my system: am running Kubuntu Edgy, with and NVidia FX5200, AMD 2400+, and 780M ram. Had successfully installed NVidia 9746, but when I tried to install Beryl, I started running into problems. But I think the real problems started after I update linux-restricted-modules per Adept notifier (I wish that app would let you flag an upgrade to be ignored rather than always nagging me).

I started a separate thread simply about my GLX problems, realizing that a rant and a genuine plea for assistance aren't really good bedfellows.

n3gbz

January 12th, 2007, 05:33 AM

I can understand where Phil is coming from as I have a simliar background.

And, yes, he does bring up some very valid points.

Linux is not going to take over the desktop this year or next year but I am seeing improvements and changes that make me believe that LInux will be the OS of choice down the road.

Many of my acqaintances are not even aware they have a choice.

That is why educating the public is one of the key areas we can all work in.

maniacmusician

January 12th, 2007, 05:46 AM

*sigh* So many people here don't have a clue how things work in linux shooting their mouth off. ](*,) It's just too much to quote and address.
I'll drink to that.

ComplexNumber

January 12th, 2007, 05:51 AM

medley
ever tried getting software to work with a mobile phone on windows? obviously not.

RockinDolphin

January 12th, 2007, 05:55 AM

I love this thread! Well said! I even made a funtee in another thread that you all should check-out. It's listed as "Now, don't ya'llget mad..."

I had someone tell me in a post "Linux isn't a replacement for Windows." I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. I only wish I had the credentials of the original poster of this thread! It is my opinion that Linux is, indeed, a replacement for Windows. Why else are some of us switching over to it instead of the next release of Windows?

That being said, if I've been using Windows for the relatively small length of time that I've been using a computer (I'm completely self-taught on Windows. If it hadn't have been for intuitive GUI's, I'd never have made it as far as I have.) and am used to using well thought-out, intuitive GUI's, then a different OS had better do it's best to try and emulate whatever Microsoft got right and not thumb their noses and make all kinds of noises just because they don't like Bill Gates, or Microsoft. In fact, according to "Pirates of Silicone Valley", it seems it was someone like Texas Instruments that came-up with the idea of a GUI and a mouse, right?

I have high hopes for this OS, but it's got problems and I don't like that i have to do what I feel is a-kin to monkeying with the registry every time I try to make a change, or make something work, or make something work again, you know? Like I had a slave drive working, but now I can't see the contents. Something has messed-up. Also, I haven't gotten to my printer not working, nor my scanner not working, yet...

I sure hope someone gives these kind of complaints some thought and attention, or else Linux might remain a 'novelty OS' and fall to the wayside. I might try Linspire...

jem7v

January 12th, 2007, 05:55 AM

Regarding the actual problem, and why things unexpectedly broke:

To the best of my knowledge, every time you update your kernel or your kernel image or anything like that, you have to reinstall the proprietary nvidia drivers. There was a kernel update yesterday, if I'm not mistaken, and that's probably what happened. http://albertomilone.com/latest_nvidia_udsf_edgy.html has some pretty good info about this; he goes by tseliot on these forums, I believe.

Regarding the rant, though, the "average soccer mom" probably won't be messing around with XGL or proprietary drivers anyway, seeing as the Ubuntu overview page on composite managers states: "Xgl and AIGLX are both VERY alpha software and should not be used on production machines. They do have bugs and do not always play nice with other programs. You have been warned." (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager) And let's not forget the constant rain of "Compiz/Beryl just broke zomg" threads we see on these forums. Composite desktops, which are developed mostly independently of the many Linux distrobutions, are still in their infancy.

(Of course, that will all change once soccer moms start beta testing Feisty Fawn instead of sticking with sturdy ol' Dapper Drake LTS.)

maxamillion

January 12th, 2007, 05:58 AM

medley

January 12th, 2007, 06:16 AM

Shut up, nobody cares, go run Windows .... I'm tired of reading this "linux isn't good enough" or "windows is better" ... wanna do something about it? then code, contribute, something ... if you want to continue to post or blog about how bad linux is and not do anything about it ... then don't use it and don't bother the rest of us with your negativism.
</rant>

Sorry, I don't want to be rude but I'm just sick of everyday I get on these forums there is someone else saying how linux will fail. I have been running linux as my only operating system on the desktop since late 1999 and it has only gotten better and last time I checked, that is not a trait of failure.

Settle down, Max. I think you are misunderstanding the spirit of what I'm saying. This is not a "Linux isn't Windows" post. I'm on your side. However, 75% of "computer users" don't want to have putz with figuring out how to make things work. The fact that you've been "using Linux since 1999" means you like this stuff. I do too. Mrs. Smith doesn't. She wants to write emails and look up recipes on the web.

I'm trying to play the role of "prophet" here, and not in the sense of doom and gloom as in "Linux is doomed; Windoz Rocks!" Prophet in the sense of "listen up here, troops, we have a problem; let's not ignore it."

I'm saying Linux will fail if....it will succeed if. It has a good chance of success, but that won't be based on fanboys yelling "hey, if you don't like it, don't use it". It will be based on thoughtful introspection about what Mrs. Smith actually will use.

Get some sleep.:p

ffi

January 12th, 2007, 06:18 AM

mistypotato

January 12th, 2007, 06:22 AM

You've ALL missed the real mark.

It's ALL about M-O-N-E-Y just like everything else.

You (more often than not) get what you PAY for.
Quick resolution for ANY problem can be had....for a price.
How much did you pay for your entire Linux Software setup?
(not hardware).

For every dollar invested into "R & D" in Linux, how much do you
suppose was spent for R&D between GatesLand & MacLand?
Do you think a dime was spent on Linux for every dollar spent on
Windows alone historically cumulative?

How many of you would be using Linux if Windows was Free????
I'm not talking about Windows (free) as it "would" have been if free all along,
I mean free as it is now.

Most people+companies use Linux because it's less DOLLAR intensive.
This indirectly is in many cases a rebellion against Windows and Microsoft's
corporate "might". The "MS" effect.

Not because it's a magic bullet. And don't gimme that virus BS.
As Linux grows in popularity, so will the hacking & virus problems for Linux.
Think Linux is immune due to it's core structure? Yeah,...right.

I bellyache now and then also, but I know Linux is virtually free and I'm amazed at how
much time and effort people in the Linux world have done "Gratis".
Linux definitely has a "Place" and utility now, something I had trouble saying
5 years ago.

So pay up or shut up....that's the law of the capitalistic jungle.

Want Linux to become more like Windows? Start donating to developers more.

My 2 cents.

Peace.

syxbit

January 12th, 2007, 06:23 AM

The educated masses will flock to Ubuntu when the message boards are free from basic set up problems like the above, and maybe offers an "official" representative there to "speak for the product"...

MRK

well said
every time the new Ubuntu comes out, the forums are full of wireless, widescreen resolution etc.. problems

maxamillion

January 12th, 2007, 06:33 AM

Well he is doing something, he is giving valuable feedback, not everbody can code but ecerybody can tell their expirience and if the distro devs are smart the would listen to such complaints.

@medley,

wait till xorg 7.3 comes out it will be a big change, useability wise, from the current situation: it will no longer use xorg.conf but instead on the fly choose the best settings to get a display and input going.

I am part of the Xubuntu community, we don't have any developers who get paid to work on Xubuntu and we do everything we do in our spare time so I get annoyed when I hear users saying what they want done better over and over but never want to spend any of their spare time helping make it happen. If you can't code, learn. If you don't want to learn then help write documentation. If you do art, make icon sets, wallpapers, anything positive towards the "goal." Thats where my frustrations come from, its not about how big or small the contribution is, just as long as people contribute. If users would spend as much time working on helping the cause as they do criticizing it, we would be so much further along in making the requested features happen.

I am not saying any one person here has made the same "feed back" more than once, but if I truly wanted to spend the time searching the net, I'm sure I could find an endless number of forums posts and blogs that constantly say "what linux needs to succeed" and to be honest, I am tired of even having to read the topic of a thread that is even close to this subject matter while I skim the forums looking for people who need help about something I might be able to help with, its old and over played.

I really am not trying to be a jerk, I'm really not ... just a little frustrated. The reality of it is this: Linux is for a niche market and that is how it will stay, our community will grow larger as more average computer users become more knowledgeable but the masses will never fully adopt linux and I'm fine with that. Do you see an Apple on every desktop? Has it not been a better operating system than Windows since its birth? ... QED.

BuffaloX

January 12th, 2007, 06:35 AM

Not because it's a magic bullet. And don't gimme that virus BS.
As Linux grows in popularity, so will the hacking & virus problems for Linux.
Think Linux is immune due to it's core structure? Yeah,...right.

Everything about the money is just about right.
Maybe also about Virus, I think it may increase several hundred percent.
0 x X100% = 0 :p

euler_fan

January 12th, 2007, 06:44 AM

I look at maintaining a computer like maintaining a car: no matter how perfect it is, you still have to put gas in it, change the headlights, change the windshield wipers, etc.

In the end it comes down to either having the willingness to learn to do what it takes to maintain your system, irrespective of what system it is.

Please don't take this the wrong way: I agree, it would be nice for there to be no driver issues (I run a laptop with a broadcom card and need to use ndiswrapper, et al to make it work). But that is as much the fault of companies who refuse to open source their drivers. But it would also be nice for there to be no windows viruses :)

To quote song: "You can't always get what you want" and, frankly "Two out of three ain't bad".

RMorris78

January 12th, 2007, 06:44 AM

when you say linux doesnt "just work" im assuming you mean windows does.....

just think about this....
every consumer pc sold comes with windows preinstalled, all drivers loaded (native drivers mind you), and software preinstalled so the average user can use it fine.

what if all these average users had to install windows themselves..... many linux distros GUI would be easier for people to install than installing windows if they knew absolutley nothing about either

and then drivers.... i see people all the time that get stuck installing drivers on windows because all device manager will give you is "Network Controller" whereas an lspci will give you "RT2500 802.11g Wireless Card" or what it be....

windows is obviously the standard operating system right now because it has most of the market share, and for many people its all they have used their whole lives. you really need to give linux a break. and linux obviously isnt for everyone, and it sounds like its not for you.... im sure when you started to learn computers 25 years ago it didnt always "just work" for you. if you had the patience there why cant you have it here? im sure you will reap the benefits later.

and never say never haha......

techstop

January 12th, 2007, 06:47 AM

Most people+companies use Linux because it's less DOLLAR intensive.

Wow! Way to generalise! ](*,)

You don't think it has anything to do with the fact that Linux is;

-more secure
-quicker to respond to security issues
-more customisable
-"free" as in libre, not as in beer
-more innovative
-better engineered
-free of vendor lock-in
-as well as the fact that money saved by organisations on licensing can be spent on hardware or non-technology expenses

I think all of that is "worth" way more than any "cost" issue. And btw, I get Windows for free from MSDNAA, guess what my main desktop is? (edgy)

deadgobby

January 12th, 2007, 06:50 AM

I can understand how the person feels and some do say that Linux is not ready for Desktop use. There are linux distro's that are %100 ready. Just like winodws it is not free. Like Linspire for example. Most PC's that come with linux installed most likely have Linspire loaded up. I did not really care for Linspire because it can be a cash cow. Yet, that how I started on Linux.
I am still learning Linux and is my hobby now. I am not ready to code and help out the tec staff. When I feel confy enuff and with out secound guess. I would love to give my free time and help.
I think Beryal is a great thing that has develope in the linux world. When tax return check comes in I am getting a new vid card and push the ram to the max. It looks way to cool not to have 3d desktop.
Gobby

StreetSmart

January 12th, 2007, 06:56 AM

I seem to think that Linux is ideal for computer hobbyists. Does Linux appeal to people who are not so bright with computers? No, but thats why genius geeks have developed Xandros Linux http://www.xandros.com/. But if you are a computer hobbyist, or you don't mind spending some time configuring an operating system thats solid, then Linux is for you. Sometimes having an operating system that "just works" is boring, and sometimes you really wish that things would 'just work'. 2006 was noticeably one of the best years for Linux as a desktop OS, and 2007 will continue that and hopefully make Linux even stronger in that market.

Quillz

January 12th, 2007, 07:01 AM

RMorris78

January 12th, 2007, 07:06 AM

thanks for the support quillz

but think if linux had the manufacturer support that windows had.... then im pretty sure Mrs. Smith would love it cuz we all know that Mrs. Smith loves saving money!

and the obvious sex appeal of linux overshadows that of windows...duh

on a serious note though... its almost like comparing apples and oranges solely because of the manufacturer support

netadptr0719

January 12th, 2007, 07:08 AM

I have been using Linux for about as long as I can remember but really only in the past year or so have I ran it non-stop and I really do like it. I didn't completely nix my Windows install because I recognize there are things Windows does that Linux doesn't and vice versa.

Lets face it, nothing has everything, everything has its problems. I think the only real reason people are more comfortable when Windows messes up then Linux is because, lets face it, you kind of have to a lot of the time. Windows messes up all the time and you just kind of learn to live with it and deal with its problems, Linux is just different and is a whole new set of problems that just take some time getting used to.

I guess feedback in a sense is constructive but this really is more of a bitch session that it really is feed back. To just point out the flaws of something and not give a whole lot of possible solutions is very frustrating from a developers stand point I am very sure. I am a current Computer Science student right now and I plan once I get another year or two under my belt that I will help develop for the Linux community and most likely Ubuntu. Just thinking about someone complaining, or as it was so elegantly put in not so many words, pointing out the flaws/differences, makes me frustrated. I hate when teachers do that, they will tell you everything you did wrong and what doesn't work but they give you no constructive feedback with pretty much no where to go.

macogw

January 12th, 2007, 07:34 AM

Not because it's a magic bullet. And don't gimme that virus BS.
As Linux grows in popularity, so will the hacking & virus problems for Linux.
Think Linux is immune due to it's core structure? Yeah,...right.

Part of the problem with Windows viruses and exploits is their patching system. They schedule it for once a month. All the hackers with half a brain release their stuff the day after. It then gets a full month run because they won't break the schedule to patch the thing and fix the problem so that the code can't exploit the OS. There is no 0day. There's 30day! Look at the patching system on Linux and most OSS though? It's a few days max. Usually, you have a fix the next day (on security stuff). That's not a large window of time in which to get infected. You might even have to be TRYING to get a virus.

But yes, regarding money. Money is definitely needed for a LOT of OSS projects. If you can't afford to donate to projects, why not help some other way? At the very least, contribute some good bug reports. Write some documentation. It's at least something. If you're a not-so-great coder, volunteer on a project and you'll A) help them B) become a better coder. If you would like to learn to code but don't know where to start, start by reading the sources of some smaller apps and see if you can understand it. In essence: learn to code, then put those new skills to use. Just do something!

techstop

January 12th, 2007, 07:45 AM

You just *have* to love Black Tuesday! :lol:

macogw

January 12th, 2007, 07:57 AM

You just *have* to love Black Tuesday! :lol:
Nah, Black Wednesday. Tuesday is Patch Release Day. Wednesday is Virus Release Day.

Tux Aubrey

January 12th, 2007, 08:25 AM

Mistypotato wrote:

Want Linux to become more like Windows? Start donating to developers more.

My 2 cents.

Congratulations Mistypotato. You are the highest bidder! Pity that.

maxamillion

January 12th, 2007, 08:32 AM

I guess feedback in a sense is constructive but this really is more of a bitch session that it really is feed back. To just point out the flaws of something and not give a whole lot of possible solutions is very frustrating from a developers stand point I am very sure. I am a current Computer Science student right now and I plan once I get another year or two under my belt that I will help develop for the Linux community and most likely Ubuntu. Just thinking about someone complaining, or as it was so elegantly put in not so many words, pointing out the flaws/differences, makes me frustrated. I hate when teachers do that, they will tell you everything you did wrong and what doesn't work but they give you no constructive feedback with pretty much no where to go.

Thank you!

I too am still a computer science undergraduate, I'm only 20 years old and I would consider myself a "contributor" but I have high hopes of becoming a developer once I have more experience with large scale projects and even now I get upset sometimes when there is more complaining than criticizing.

Atomic Dog

January 12th, 2007, 08:42 AM

Linux may not win the OS wars (I see Apple making inroads far before linux) but it is getting to be more viable. A coworker today brought in his home desktop and asked me to install linux on it (Ubuntu 6.10 of course). I'll shrink his XP partition and let grub handle the dual boot. He wants to use something safe to browse without worry of virus'. Hey! This is progress! A regular user actually interrested in using a non M$ OS.

adewale

January 12th, 2007, 08:46 AM

i understand how people feel especially newbie's when they rant its only natural to do so they'll get over it and enjoy the os. i started last year with RH 9 felt frustrated someone handed me a live cd i said this was great.got kubuntu wow this is even better. No viruses, i don't even know if there's a registry in linux. its a wonderful os and cares about it user don't have to worry about nsa putting a back door on your os.

professor_chaos

January 12th, 2007, 08:47 AM

Well put. I use beryl and X broke and it gave me the opportunity to fix the problem and in doing so learning a little. If Linux try's to appeal to the masses, and releases new versions of distros every 5 years to secure stability, just to appease to the tech challenged, then I'm out. If you can't fix the problem then shame on you. I've had enough of people blaming others for their predicament. Man up!

Some of us LOVE fiddling with our computers. When something breaks, yes, it's annoying and irritating, but, I always learn something new finding the answer. Too many people expect everything to be done for them instantly and along with lots of hand holding. For these people, this is where Windows and Mac come in. I'm not saying you're one of those people because you've obviously experienced the benefits of Linux and open source. But, you have to realize that with Linux and open source, the vendors aren't helping out that much. Sure nvidia and ATI provide binary drivers. My guess is they do this begrudgingly; not because they want to. Absolutely everything about Linux has been built from the ground up and mostly by volunteers. Development is rapid so that we get to have all the latest cutting edge features as soon as possible. Plus, most of the device drivers had to be reverse engineered and built from scratch too. Now, Linux has better hardware recognition and support in many cases than Windows or Mac users. All of this and we Linux users don't have to pay a dime for our powerful operating system and most of it's software! It would be virtually impossible to accomplish all this without a few bugs here and there. It's no secret that people who use Linux are much more computer savvy than those who don't (generally speaking.) I think this is due to the learning and fiddling these people have to do occasionally to set up their systems the way they want and to fix problems when they occur. It's also because we as open source users and advocates are passionate about our platform and we're willing to put up with the growing pains encountered while using it. Hey, look on the bright side, at least you're not wasting your time cleaning up after the latest virus attack, spyware infestation or blue screen of death!

bd1886

January 12th, 2007, 08:54 AM

Understand the rant. Just started using Linux and perusing these threads. I end up asking myself... " Self... what do you think your doin'?" Haven't been using it but I have been paying attention to it and Windows in the media. This big ol' world is about to see an explosion in connectivity and Windows just won't be able to foot the bill or compete with not only free,but the human resource that'll be behind it and using it. This young generation of kids will learn it much easier than our generation. Not just out of it being free but truly adjustable to their specific needs as they grow. The Windows gang realized this long ago and thats why their indoctrination of the system, in schools, started early on. And attempts in places like China now. No evil empire thing,just business. The Linux push is just beginning. Education empowers. Internationally... Those "Soccer Moms" will be using it because their kids will teach 'em . The big deal is kids grow up! Windows won't die. It has contributed (beyond measure) to our present level of communication. Their hold is going to be weakened though. Natural "checks and balances" dictate and demand it. Time frame... who cares. The "Linux" kids will be fixing (among other things) the" Windows " Kids stuff because they can't. (Another opportunity for "checks and balances")

Henry Rayker

January 12th, 2007, 09:20 AM

The core of your complaint, medley, appears to be surroundng 3d accelerated graphics and proprietary video drivers, yet you also complain about the problems Mrs. Smith will encounter...these are two completely disjoint situations. Mrs. Smith won't be installing Beryl or any bleeding edge eye candy crap.

Once the system is set up, the average user (Mrs. Smith, as you have labeled him or her) should have absolutely no trouble performing his or her normal functions (these being email, web browsing, office-suite type work etc.) My girlfriend (far from being a techy or similar, but fairly computer savvy) picked up my laptop running Ubuntu and checked email, browsed the web and worked on a word processing document...all without my knowing about it (therefore, she taught herself and found it to be absolutely simple). The only problems she's encountered in Ubuntu is the differences in Open Office and MS Office functionality.

I thought, perhaps my girlfriend picked up on things I hadn't realized I'd taught her; I'll give this another shot. Over the holiday, I visited my family and handed my laptop to my sister. She was IMing, posting to her myspace and listening to music on my laptop all within about 10 minutes...the only thing I had to tell her was that her guess was correct...Gaim is a replacement for AIM and this is how you set up your own account in it. She is probably the WORST person with computers I have ever met.

Those examples being given, it must be pointed out that I am not using Beryl (or any proprietary video drivers) and my system was completely functional prior to handing it over to them. Compiling from source sucks, but I recall doing it a couple times in Windows (REALLY obscure apps I couldn't find an installer for)...and I know it occasionally happens on Macs too...I prefer compiling from source, though, honestly...

blackened

January 12th, 2007, 09:26 AM

Exactly. If you've ever actually had to deal with Windows pre-installed, it's not any prettier than Linux. It takes at least an hour to install, and then you need to find all the drivers for your hardware. Granted, the drivers themselves tend to be easy to install, but finding them is still a challenge.

And anyone who has experienced "driver hell" knows exactly what you're talking about. If you've ever bought an OEM system and had it go to pot requiring a reinstall, then you will understand that Windows suffers from many of the same problems as Linux on a new installation, and solving those installation problems can be just as nerve-wracking as new Linux installs can be. In fact, overall, I think Linux is much more of a workable out-of-the-box system than Windows when faced with this situation.

The thing is, most regular users are never faced with this situation, because they are lead to believe that the OS is an irreplaceable part of the computer, and that if it goes out, then you either pay someone to repair it, or you trash it and buy another system that will, undoubtedly, come with Windows pre-installed.

spockrock

January 12th, 2007, 09:29 AM

not gonna lie but as a really long time windows user, and power user depending on the situation driver installation is some time way easier for linux, especially when it auto detects everything :). Also I find say installing nvidia driver to be 1000x easier then windows, seriously sudo apt-get install nvida-glx, and sudo nvidia-xconfig, doesn't get easier then that.....

and yes from what I heard xorg 7.3 will autodetect and configure everything, I wanna know if I can still go into xorg.conf and tinker.

Sef

January 12th, 2007, 09:32 AM

i don't even know if there's a registry in linux.

No, there isn't.

3rdalbum

January 12th, 2007, 09:36 AM

I can't imagine any Windows users doing any serious troubleshooting. That's why they hire me to fix their problems, even if their problems are "I want you to uninstall Limewire so my kids stop downloading music illegally".

Yet, curiously, Windows has won the desktop at the moment, despite being so difficult that users can't accomplish such simple tasks. Right?

You've been using Windows since what, Win 3.1? Win 95? In those operating systems, you still needed to drop to a command line. You needed to know what "extended memory" was. There were application incompatibility problems, the solutions for which were more difficult than compiling software from source is these days.

Yet, curiously, people put up with that rather than use a Macintosh where none of those problems were present.

The reason why you don't have to hand-configure network interfaces on Windows is because the ISPs give you CDs that you put into your computer and it modifies the files for you. There's no technical reason why ISPs couldn't do the same for Linux users.

Get over it. And when you've gotten over it, go and fix whatever problems you see. I've only been using Linux for a year and was previously a Mac user who'd never seen a command-line before; yet I'm currently in the process of fixing some Xorg autodetection problems on certain computers. Get to it!

blackened

January 12th, 2007, 09:49 AM

aysiu

January 12th, 2007, 10:02 AM

Merged into the Desktop Readiness thread.

getaboat

January 12th, 2007, 10:07 AM

Is it about winning or providing an alternative?

Have you seen the minimum spec for Vista? Only one of my PCs stands a chance. Mac is OK but expensive (especially when they go wrong) and proprietary.

And how many can say that they are running a totally legal Windows set up?

Linux provides safe, realistic, conscience free computing that can provide a new lease of life to older kit. You may have to get down and dirty (less so it would appear) with the command line - but at the moment thats the price you pay for not paying a price. I'm sure that (like DOS) the command line will be needed less and less in future.

(on the subject of Windows hell(s) please do not forget DLL hell -arghhhhhhhhhh!!)

GetaBoat

Redlance

January 12th, 2007, 10:24 AM

Personally I im seriously impressed with the evolution of linux and its brethren.

My first foray was with qnix (a Gui and connectivity on 1.44 floppy) it wasnt linux but close and i thought hey now that is damn cool.

I played with a redhat distro.. forgot the version. had loads of problems. (late 1990's 98??)

Got a caldera disc at Ces (yes yes i know the evil SCO :P)

but even back then i was interested but never could make the switch.

then knoppix.. that blew me away.. it was great.. till I installed and then video card didnt work my cablemodem didnt work. (but worked on the live cd :D )

tried many distro's off and on.

then Ubuntu. finally success.. mainly due to K.I.S.S. philosophy (keep it simple stupid)
i actually had the base from which i could learn at my newbish pace. I got to play around. installed many things.. actually was able to edit my conf files and get it running. lots of lurking and reading. I have learned alot. Now I have Sabayon,Kubuntu on my main desktop. and Ubuntu on my laptop.

I havent beryled no need for it in my opinion. but its damn spiffy looking.

I look back at what linux was to what i feel it is becoming and I really feel it is remarkable in 8 years how much has changed. As a new person to dedicated linux use I can say it is a strong OS now for my home use. Now with Asia and india starting to explode onto the linux scene they will make great changes and improvements along with the current people who work so hard and contribute to the Philosophy. In a way im excited at what it will be like in 8 years. In a way I also feel I may not recognize it in 8 years time.

lotusleaf

January 12th, 2007, 10:26 AM

I'm just tired of having to fiddle to get things to work

Not everyone has to fiddle with Linux to get it to work. I've set up Linux boxes for people and walked away, never having them call me for support, only to say how happy they were with Linux. Most of those people knew little to nothing about computers. Compare that experience to the same people and their Windows boxes who used to call me all the time for support. Now for a lot of people, there is some degree of fiddling involved. However, had Linux enjoyed being preloaded on systems from the start for as long as Win/Mac have been around, I'm sure there would be less fiddling required today, especially with hardware.

I don't want a Win/Mac box, I don't care how easy either of them appear, I want a free and open source box and neither Win/Mac provide me with that freedom. Obtaining and retaining freedom throughout history has never been something wrapped in ease and comfort. Here's a brief article I recommend everyone read: The Land of "Nothing for free" by Jeremy Allison (http://samba.org/samba/news/articles/low_point/column11.html). The fact that our society today is filled with people who would rather consume than fiddle is one of the reasons why gas guzzling cars with proprietary internals are still used by the majority. Eventually this will all change as people will more easily be able to develop their own hardware themselves (think something like fab@home (http://www.fabathome.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page) in every home) with free/open hardware designs shared and improved upon.

The question is: do you want to support the FOSS movement or do you want to support companies who provide closed source software? I don't care if hardware from Microsoft or Apple can run Linux, I don't want my money going to either company, period. If other people enjoy tinkering with said hardware, cool. I believe we all should (and will, eventually) be developing hardware on our own. Those who would respond with, "I don't care about all that, I just want X,Y,Z" are the focal point of blame. Unwind the philosophy from the person and the soul is nothing but another bag of peas to scan at the check stand for Company A,B,C. But remember, consumer, the next version is shinier, happier, and stimulates the economy!

See Also:

* http://cba.mit.edu/projects/fablab/
* "PERSONAL FABRICATION: A Talk with Neil Gershenfeld" (http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/gershenfeld03/gershenfeld_index.html)

aysiu

January 12th, 2007, 10:34 AM

I'm merging this thread in with the Linux Desktop thread as well.

I've attached the poll for posterity.

Redlance

January 12th, 2007, 11:59 AM

One thread to rule them all.. and in darkness bind them ;D

emarkay

January 12th, 2007, 06:20 PM

Shut up, nobody cares, go run Windows .... I'm tired of reading this "linux isn't good enough" or "windows is better" ... wanna do something about it? then code, contribute, something ... if you want to continue to post or blog about how bad linux is and not do anything about it ... then don't use it and don't bother the rest of us with your negativism. Sorry, I don't want to be rude but I'm just sick of everyday I get on these forums there is someone else saying how linux will fail. I have been running linux as my only operating system on the desktop since late 1999 and it has only gotten better and last time I checked, that is not a trait of failure.

I have been using PC's since 1983 - and Linux for a few months. Hey, dude, some of us are not Linux Geeks like you and can not code, don't know what to contribute, and, just in case you haven't figured it out yet, your exclusivity amongst your peers is being polluted by us mainstream noobs with less interest in the nuances of C++ and more interests in getting a job done efficiently and quickly.

The point of most of these "rants" is to hope that the developers and administrators of Ubuntu read them and act upon them, Why don't YOU, try to address the problems I mentioned, since you seem to be such an expert, and then let me know...
[End of MY rant.]

aysiu

January 12th, 2007, 06:26 PM

Brunellus

January 12th, 2007, 06:33 PM

I don't code. I don't sys admin. I don't network admin.

But I will say that if you have a genuine interest in improving Ubuntu, you should read this thread:
What's better than whining on the forums? Making a difference. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)
aysiu, by virtue of being a sudoer...you are the sysadmin.

(offtopic:) Being the family sysadmin is a different thing than simply running your own computer. If you're ever in a position that you have root/sudo over moer than your own computer and/or have administrative access to even your family's local area network--guess what? You're responsible for everything on it. Caution, prudence, and a bit of education are warranted.

aysiu

January 12th, 2007, 06:35 PM

I meant I don't do so professionally.

If I were to go to the IT department at my work place and tell them "I sys admin" because I run my own Ubuntu home computer, they'd die laughing...

renatosilva

January 12th, 2007, 07:23 PM

Imagine that I'm a computer technician at Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, wanting to promove free and open source software. I come to a commom medium-level home user and say:

- Hey, why don't you stop using this illegal copy of Windows and try an easy Linux I have for you?

-Ok. Humm.. linux for human beings, good...Let's install it

But that guy has a dial-up connection. So after sucessfully installing Edgy on it's PC, then he intuitively find on System/Administration/Networking his modem, so he configures the dial-up and enable it. But nothing happens...

We know he has a Winmodem, we know what's linmodems, we know that part of their funcions are executed by a windows driver which needs to be emulated on linux, we know he has to seek in internet the better way of enabling it, and has to take a look here in wiki and read a lot of unbelievable shell commands... all that to JUST CONNECT TO THE INTERNET USING HIS PHONE LINE!!! ](*,)

Jesus Christ!!! Where is the "human being here"???? Why don't Ubuntu has this evil modem drivers and detect them??? They're not free? Then where are the free???? :-k

Tell me people. I love Ubuntu and it's a constructive comment, don't misundertand.

meng

January 12th, 2007, 07:26 PM

Suggest future similar posts to go in general discussion subforum rather than a help subforum. Lack of hardware vendor support for Linux has been discussed over and over. With utmost respect, you're not raising any new issues here.

renatosilva

January 12th, 2007, 07:34 PM

I did not found that forum. Where is it? So where I can read answer to my question? Is there threads or wikis specially focused on what I'm saying?

If vendors does not support, is there any free linux drivers? If yes, then why not to put it in Ubuntu. I've heard about a Martian driver for Lucent chipsets that will be part of official repository...

Anyway...tell me where to find an explanation about "human beings x modems"

earobinson

January 12th, 2007, 07:36 PM

January 12th, 2007, 07:41 PM

I did not found that forum. Where is it? So where I can read answer to my question? Is there threads or wikis specially focused on what I'm saying?

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DialupModemHowto

If vendors does not support, is there any free linux drivers? If yes, then why not to put it in Ubuntu. "

No, there are no free-libre drivers. If there were, they would already be part of the kernel.

(Actually, there are just a few, like the Mwave isa modem, circa 1997)

I've heard about a Martian driver for Lucent chipsets that will be part of official repository...

Anyway...tell me where to find an explanation about "human beings x modems"

The lucent mars chipset is a hardware modem. It is an ISA modem.

The manufacturers of these devices nave not been friendly to the linux community and so it is impossible to make a driver. Once linux has a greater market share (ten percent) hardware vendors should take notice and release free-libre and open source drivers for their products. The drivers they currently do provide are usually binary-only and don't work for long (only work for one version of the kernel). They are also not licenced in a way that can allow them to be distributed with the OS. Go complain to the manufacturers.

lyceum

January 12th, 2007, 07:41 PM

Imagine you by a Mac. You have heard how great they are, the eye candy is really nice, etc... You get it home and it won't run all of your MS programs! Were you ripped off? No, it is a Mac.

Linux is the same way. If you have a part that is supported, it works. If you have a part that is not supported, it will not, but might with some work. It is up to the makers of the parts to work with the Linux developers. If they won't, there is nothing they can do. Some people make work arounds, but that is the best there is right now.

Ubuntu is Linux for Humans, as it comes with the core things you might need, and if you can get on line, even more. It is free and easy to use. It is not magic. If you want to complain, write a letter to the maker of the part that does not work. Ubuntu has no control over them. Sorry.

Mateo

January 12th, 2007, 08:31 PM

People that say that Windows is easier either
1.Don't have a fast internet connection(meaning they wait ages for Ubuntu to download packages)
2.Don't have the guts to face the steep learning curve(after which EVERYTHING seems easier)
3.Are injected with serious M$ drugs that hypnotize them into-actually forget this reason
4.Don't have a very "compatible" computer...
5.Are a bit too used to the "closed" world that Windows has
6. These people could be M$ employees in disguise! O.o!!
7. They don't like problem solving(when something goes wrong and I fix it by either getting help from forums I become quite happy)
8. Don't have patience(it takes quite a bit of time to get used to a new OS)

Well I just tried to answer the best I can!

It's not very polite in debate to say "anyone who disagrees with me is either lazy or stupid". It is, in fact, extremely arrogant and condescending.

Mateo

January 12th, 2007, 08:33 PM

You need to get checkinstall it's in the repositories ;)

Got it, used it. Didn't work the very first time I tried it.

By the way, it copies a DEB file into one of my directories. Any chance I can remove that (wasted space) and still be able to uninstall from synaptic? Otherwise checkinstall is useless to me.

Mateo

January 12th, 2007, 08:36 PM

no, gpaco. its the synaptic for tarballs. see screenshot.

Not quite. For one, you can't install using it. you have to use a command line PACO application with the install. Extra work, but fine. The README isn't exactly written for people who don't already know how to use it. They don't even tell you are what point to run the paco program.

Hendrixski

January 12th, 2007, 08:40 PM

Got it, used it. Didn't work the very first time I tried it.

By the way, it copies a DEB file into one of my directories. Any chance I can remove that (wasted space) and still be able to uninstall from synaptic? Otherwise checkinstall is useless to me.

I like this guy. that is the correct attitude for software testing. If software is not intuitive, if it doesn't work, then it's a bug. If you think a piece of open source software sucks tell the developers. File a bug report (bug #34739109347475921 = "it didn't work the first time I tried it") that will tell the developers "oh, my users think I'm a retard because I can't make a program that works", and they fix it. Fast. because it's open source.

And yes, Linux is ready for the mainstream, I use it at work.

Mateo

January 12th, 2007, 08:44 PM

I like this guy. that is the correct attitude for software testing. If software is not intuitive, if it doesn't work, then it's a bug. If you think a piece of open source software sucks tell the developers. File a bug report (bug #34739109347475921 = "it didn't work the first time I tried it") that will tell the developers "oh, my users think I'm a retard because I can't make a program that works", and they fix it. Fast. because it's open source.

I didn't say there was any bug. You're putting words in my mouth. I simply said it didn't work. I don't know why it didn't work, so I can't tell you if it's a bug or not.

renatosilva

January 12th, 2007, 08:45 PM

So tell me... if it's so hard to feature modem support, how do Kurumim does it?

Kurumim don't leave me behind on this, he not just recognize my modem but also tell me what's happening. He explain me what's a win modem and why it may not work.

Ubuntu do should have at least few and/or generic drivers...and have a dialer such as gnome-ppp, not that horrible wvdial...I know the lack of manufactures, how bad that guys, but as Kurumim, Ubuntu should inform user what's happening.

If I wasn't a technician I'd be desperated now since when I configured my modem and enabled it, NOTHING happened. I thought it was only config and tried to find a dialer. the only I've found was wvdial. A common user would be able to do that?

One more time, these are constructive comments, maybe Brazil is not so relevant to listen? Is that?

And again, I do like Ubuntu, constructive comment!

renatosilva

January 12th, 2007, 08:50 PM

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DialupModemHowto

As I said the question is not how to do but why to do and how to make it easy. But thanks very much for the rest of comment :)

I've printed a howto from Brazillian community and I'll try it tonight. It's relatively simple: download source code (link is different of the english howto), compile and load. And install gnome-ppp of course.

lyceum

January 12th, 2007, 08:51 PM

aysiu

January 12th, 2007, 08:53 PM

Suggest future similar posts to go in general discussion subforum rather than a help subforum. Done.

renatosilva

January 12th, 2007, 09:06 PM

Thanks for the info lyceum. I'm not an advanced develop (I would like to and just do instead of ask :) ) but I can help from the user perspective I believe, making suggestions and relating problems such as this..

I'm planning to join the Brazillian community for something, maybe docs...

Done.

Oh sorry guys I've seen this Ubuntu Cafe but as the other friend had said "general" I was looking for exactly that...

KernelKen

January 12th, 2007, 09:50 PM

From a newbie perspective, semi computer literate user. I can tell you that to me ready for desktop means, that it will work with my hardware, software, or has an application that I can use.

I love Ubuntu and think it is already great for the computer savey. I have had my share of problems some I have resolved others I have not. The problems I have not resolved in Ubuntu were not a problem in Windows, i.e. I use Quickbooks for business, and the printer I had didn't work so I bought a new printer.

If/when Applications specific to Linux are greater/more useful than software for Windows then people will deal with the hardware problems.

I began using Linux because a software program existed in Linux (and was free, bonus) that didn't exist in Windows.

aysiu

January 12th, 2007, 09:54 PM

Mac OS X has a clear advantage, uniform hardware. If Ubuntu was for uniform hardware I'm sure it would be the best and easiest OS around. Just throwing this idea out as a brainstorm, but what if Ubuntu did kind of a cross between Windows and Mac in this regard? Right now, Microsoft designs its OS to work on x86 hardware in general but doesn't optimize for any particular manufacturer (though, I'm sure Dell has a huge market share and some special deals with Microsoft). On the other hand, Apple designs Mac OS X to work on only a small set of its own hardware.

What if Ubuntu continued to design its OS to work on a large variety of hardware but also manufacturered its own hardware or worked with a small vendor to produce Ubuntu-ideal hardware? I'm not talking about just a hardware compatibility list or a vendor building their own computers out of Ubuntu-compatible parts. I'm talking about a special system that Ubuntu could say, "If you want the absolute best in hardware compatibility with Ubuntu, buy this system, but we'll still support everything else we already have."

Is that a crazy idea? Does it have any merit?

I agree. Can we have a Forum here where mentioning Microsoft or any of their products is banned? It's not going to happen.On the plus side, we do have a forum dedicated to discussion about Windows. That has cut down a bit on Windows being mentioned in other subforums.

Shut up, nobody cares, go run Windows .... I'm tired of reading this "linux isn't good enough" or "windows is better" ... wanna do something about it? then code, contribute, something ... if you want to continue to post or blog about how bad linux is and not do anything about it ... then don't use it and don't bother the rest of us with your negativism.
</rant> A bit harshly put, but I agree with the idea behind it.

kd7swh

January 12th, 2007, 10:04 PM

Any person can install it on any computer without any problems

Computers are machines they are going to have problems every once in a while.

We all know the "Desktop Ready" OSs are not perfect installers.

Anyone can use it once it's already been installed and configured

I think this is the most important. Most end users "Just want the thing to work"

Every commercial application works on it

No OS or Distro has been able to accommodate all the software that is on the market for it at all times.

It automatically detects most hardware without the need to hunt down drivers

Hardware Detection in Linux has been on an upswing for years. :)

It comes preinstalled on computers so novice users don't have to install it

This is being done by people like http://system76.com/ but the end user needs to know how to take care of the system. That includes re-installing the OS.

It's suitable to the needs of most beginner users but not necessarily to most intermediate ones

The jump from one to the other can happen so quickly this is not a good idea.

As for this one...

Windows and nothing else... not even Mac OS X

I have nothing to say.

It
Works on my desktop and
Ready for Desktop is a nonsensical term

m.musashi

January 12th, 2007, 10:19 PM

Just throwing this idea out as a brainstorm, but what if Ubuntu did kind of a cross between Windows and Mac in this regard? Right now, Microsoft designs its OS to work on x86 hardware in general but doesn't optimize for any particular manufacturer (though, I'm sure Dell has a huge market share and some special deals with Microsoft). On the other hand, Apple designs Mac OS X to work on only a small set of its own hardware.

What if Ubuntu continued to design its OS to work on a large variety of hardware but also manufacturered its own hardware or worked with a small vendor to produce Ubuntu-ideal hardware? I'm not talking about just a hardware compatibility list or a vendor building their own computers out of Ubuntu-compatible parts. I'm talking about a special system that Ubuntu could say, "If you want the absolute best in hardware compatibility with Ubuntu, buy this system, but we'll still support everything else we already have."

Is that a crazy idea? Does it have any merit?

Has merit and is a great idea. I don't know if Mark would be in favor of this or not. I don't know enough about him. But from a user perspective it would be great if there were Ubuntus, iMacs and the generic Windows PCs and you could choose your favorite flavor.

techstop

January 12th, 2007, 10:31 PM

aysiu

January 12th, 2007, 10:35 PM

With all due respect, I think it's a terrible idea. Hardware R&D costs are astronomical. My hardware is completely compatible with ubuntu, and it's all of the shelf. Why not lean on the manufacturers to provide better driver support rather than take that responsibility on to the maintainers of a linux distribution?

EDIT: One of the strengths of linux is that it runs on just about anything. If ubuntu (or other *nixes) got to a point where I needed to buy proprietary hardware to run it, it would be no different to Apple.
With all due respect, I don't think you're understanding my proposal at all.

I'm proposing that Ubuntu either manufacture one or two models itself or work closely with a manufacturer to produce Ubuntu-optimized (different from compatible) hardware. They would still be doing what they regularly do, and I hate to say that that includes R & D for just about everything.

Right now they aren't getting support from a lot of third-party vendors. The only difference is that one vendor would be one that would work with them.

techstop

January 12th, 2007, 10:54 PM

With all due respect, I don't think you're understanding my proposal at all.

I'm proposing that Ubuntu either manufacture one or two models itself or work closely with a manufacturer to produce Ubuntu-optimized (different from compatible) hardware. They would still be doing what they regularly do, and I hate to say that that includes R & D for just about everything.

Right now they aren't getting support from a lot of third-party vendors. The only difference is that one vendor would be one that would work with them.

So a whitebox manufacturer or Dell or something? Isn't the hardware "compatibility" issues more to do with peripherals (printers, keyboards, cameras, mp3 players etc) rather than core system hardware (motherboards, graphics etc). How will you account for the large variety of peripherals people will want to use, and how would they all be available from one vendor? You would need to get a foot in the door with someone on the scale of Dell I believe for that to work (ie they provide desktops, notebooks, servers, printers, pdas, networking etc), look how long it took AMD to get their foot in the door when they had a prolonged period of clear superiority over Intel. Also, when you say "optimised", I guess you mean that drivers will be mature and full-featured rather than just "doing the job"?

I still don't really follow how this would work?

doobit

January 12th, 2007, 11:31 PM

With all due respect, I don't think you're understanding my proposal at all.

I'm proposing that Ubuntu either manufacture one or two models itself or work closely with a manufacturer to produce Ubuntu-optimized (different from compatible) hardware. They would still be doing what they regularly do, and I hate to say that that includes R & D for just about everything.

Right now they aren't getting support from a lot of third-party vendors. The only difference is that one vendor would be one that would work with them.

Maybe they could get the prices down to the point that some people would be willing to buy them. I've had my model listed for five weeks now, on two sites and ebay, with no takers, but a lot of verbal "interest." I think the price is too high, but that's the price I can build them for.
I think that there also needs to be a different sales orientation when you try to sell hardware to people who are really just after free software. They are not thinking about how their money will be well spent, they are thinking about how to not spend money. :-| Maybe that's a little harsh, but that's the way it seems.

Enverex

January 12th, 2007, 11:47 PM

Kossilar

January 13th, 2007, 12:11 AM

When enough people are using Linux, hardware vendors will provide drivers as a means of ensuring people buy their stuff.

Why does Nvidia provide drivers for Linux when the majority of their customers are likely gamers running Windows?

Because they know that eventually Open Source will overwhelm the Corporations currently dominating the computer world and they want us to remember them.

One of the problems with switching to Linux is that you don't really know whether or not your stuff is going to work, but once you're here, why would you buy new hardware that isn't supported?

We need to show hardware vendors that Linux is constantly growing and imporving and convince them that they need to provide the same amount of support to Linux that they give to Windows.

Frak

January 13th, 2007, 12:38 AM

Frak

January 13th, 2007, 12:47 AM

My worry with that is that support for things other than the "Ubuntu specific hardware" would start to slip and eventually it would become "Ubuntu hardware only" with anything else just having very minimal support.

I support the "learn harder on other manufactuerers in general" idea. I like having a big choice of things, not being restricted to Mac like machines (eww).
But what you don't understand is, unlike Apple, Ubuntu is also developed by the community and it is not made to be a commercial oddity. Apple wants to make money by making you buy all that you can, so why not make the OS want only their hardware.

RockinDolphin

January 13th, 2007, 05:57 AM

Well, I had high hopes, but I guess I'm going to try a different Linux distro. I mean, I felt there was a little bit of magick in being able to download a free OS and get my computer up and running. It hasn't been a total waste of time, but it is clear that there in an entrenched attitude among Linux developers and 'hard-core' users that dictates that, if you can't use Linux and can't get a grip on command line procedures, then you don't deserve Linux. That's my opinion.

It's so sad that such a philosophy is going to ham-string what looks to be an otherwise excellent OS. I stated it in someone else's thread and I'll re-state it here. Linux developers/users seem to have an attitude that, if Microsoft did it, came up with it, stole it and made it 'theirs', then it's tainted and no-good, so start from scratch. Even if it means that it's going to set ease-of-use back 20-25 years. Let's face it, Windows has made using a computer easy, entertaining, and accessible for so many of us out here that couldn't memorize the seemingly arcane DOS language. Now we have Linux. However, Linux seems to be missing this obvious point, or flat-out ignoring it.

If Linux is to take-on Windows as a serious contender (And I don't mean to imply that it isn't. I respect people who have the knowledge and ability to program. I wish I could, or had a better situation where I could learn. I'm self-taught at doing manual CNC programming, but can't establish a relation with a PC like I can a machine-tool.) it needs to be able to do a lot of the thinking for us. When you ask a user to start entering command line stuff, it's asking for trouble and it's requiring the user to do more than they want. They want to USE the computer, not WORK on the computer! It goes the same way for my car. I can do a lot of my own mechanic work. It's out of necessity because I can't afford to hire someone else to fix it for me. Now, just because I can work on my own car doesn't mean that I really want to. What I'd prefer to do is drive and enjoy the car! That's what Linux needs to do! Please! If you're a developer, DO SOMETHING TO FIX THIS!

Anyway, I still have the CD of Ubooboo that I burned in case DreamLinux isn't what I'm looking for,either. Then again, maybe I'll check-out Linspire Live and see if it looks promising enough to shell-out the $60.00 for just so I'll hopefully have an OS that will install itself and make everything work with the minimum amount of fuss and effort. I've fooled with Ubooboo for a week, now, and still am not where I'd like, or need to be. How much is your time worth? Think about it.

~Kenny
(P.S. I'd prefer to be able to read retorts to this as opposed to seeing this go to the 'jail'. I posted what I thought was a funny, but I see a moderator had a thin-skin and sent it to jail. Why the thin skin if your Os is so big and bad? Or maybe it's that you're sensitive to the fact that it's not able to live up to the hype? Have more guts and stand by it, then. If you stand for freedom of the OS, then you need to stand for freedom of speech! It's not like I'm trying to sell anything, or post spam! Jeez! Lighten-up and have a sense of humor, too!)

Chmlnalien303

January 13th, 2007, 06:00 AM

well .. i think your looking for a windows.. linux is advanced it needs some setup and it is worth it to me, p.s i can tell you dont like computer parts and programming !

d3v1ant_0n3

January 13th, 2007, 06:03 AM

Why not just use Windows?

Linux is not windows. Linux is not trying to be a free(or Free) version of windows. Linux will never be windows.

aysiu

January 13th, 2007, 06:05 AM

I have to say I haven't seen that attitude too prevalent among Ubuntu users, but I guess your experience has been different.

I don't agree that what you've said applies to all of Linux, but I'm glad you're giving other distros a go. I would recommend, in addition to Dream Linux and Linspire, that you give Mepis and PCLinuxOS a try before giving up completely.

Otherwise, if Windows works for you, use Windows. I enjoy using Ubuntu, but I'm a firm believer in "to each her own." My wife enjoys using her Mac. My brother enjoys using his Windows. And I enjoy using my Ubuntu. Live and let live.

In the meantime, I've moved your thread to a more appropriate place (not the Jail).

RockinDolphin

January 13th, 2007, 06:05 AM

And that's the glib sort of answer I expected. Sure, when the time comes to add something new to the machine, I can and do enjoy that, but after that's done, I want to be able to use and enjoy the machine and software. I use my computer to listen to music quite a bit and have it hooked to my home stereo. I'm currently not able to do this like I was because Linux doesn't make full use of my Turtle Beach sound card.

CroEragon

January 13th, 2007, 06:06 AM

You see, most of Linux users are teach savvy and do not find it difficult to handle command line. That doesn't mean you do not "deserve" to use Linux. You just choose wrong distro. If you want nice gui that covers every aspect of OS than use Mandriva 2007 One (free distro on one CD, you can use GNOME edition or KDE one) or as you said Linspiree, but don't pay for it, use Freespire. It is community version of Linspire.
I hope that you won't give up totally on Linux and became once more M$ user.

aysiu

January 13th, 2007, 06:10 AM

You see, most of Linux users are teach savvy and do not find it difficult to handle command line. Well, I for one will not identify as having been tech-savvy when I started using Linux. In fact, when I did in April of 2005, I was turned off by Ubuntu's reliance on the command-line at first. That's why I used Mepis instead. Mepis was very user-friendly to point-and-click folks at the time in comparison to Ubuntu (some would argue it still is). After using Mepis for a month, I wanted to give Ubuntu a shot and the Ubuntu Guide (http://www.ubuntuguide.org) really helped me get used to the command-line because all of the commands were useful and in one place for copying and pasting.

Tux Aubrey

January 13th, 2007, 06:17 AM

re RockinDolphin's post above

You should try other distros! That's the idea. And go back to windows if none of them suit - that's the idea too! Its about choice.

And anyway - I don't think the command line is compulsory. It is true that many of the very helpful people here jump into a noobie query with a command line answer. That's because it is quick and easy (true) once you learn how (and why). There are guis for most things.

I see a lot of posts recently where inexperienced users (like me) are asking for help with some very Beta, experimental, third-party packages. Complaining here that they don't work as (naively) expected is a bit rich. Ask for help by all means - but complaining and dis-ing the distro is way out of line (IMHO).

BTW - if you are genuinely evaluating other distros, many people here would appreciate your feedback. The forums are not as biased and blind to other ways of doing things as you seem to think. Hey RAV TUX is even promoting Sabayon (or some other Italian dessert) right here, right now and I haven't seen him flamed (flambe-ed?) for it.

aysiu

January 13th, 2007, 06:22 AM

And anyway - I don't think the command line is compulsory. It is true that many of the very helpful people here jump into a noobie query with a command line answer. That's because it is quick and easy (true) once you learn how (and why). There are guis for most things. For more information on this, read Is Ubuntu really too dependent on the terminal? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=311953)

RockinDolphin

January 13th, 2007, 06:25 AM

Why not use Windows... Well, my Win98SE has served me well and if I hadn't have been running close to the end of my drive, I guess I'd still be using it.

But my 40Gig drive was almost used up. I bought a 120Gig drive eight months ago, but had plans for an eventual DIY computer build. I wanted an OS more powerful than '98SE that might be able to make use of either dual processors, or dual-core, the new graphics cards that are coming out, and all the good stuff. A machine that would serve me well for another 5 or so years.

But XP is expensive. XP Pro even more so. Then, I've read about what are supposed to be the horrors of Vista and I wanted a change. I've been curious about Linux for awhile, now, but was afraid to take the plunge. I also didn't have a spare drive so I could try it out without fear of messing-up my windows.

It's funny that, when someone makes disparaging remarks about Linux, people want to say "Well! Go back to Windows! We don't need your kind, anyway!" Yeah? Thanks for the words of encouragement! Those people are the same ones that come here and post all kinds of stuff in order to help a noob without backing-up and considering that they're dealing with a noob! Okay, fine! You're smart and witty, and all of that, but you still failed to help the noob!

Furthermore, it makes me laugh when people want to say "Linux is NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR WINDOWS!!!!! (Huff! Huff! Huff!) What a joke! Of course it's a replacement for Windows! By holding-on to this "Linux is not Windows! (Duh...) It's not a replacement for Windows!" mentality, Linux has lost. I mean, Linux and it's users are then a bunch of losers because they've cornered themselves into this mind-set. If this OS is as great as you think it is (and like I'd like to believe it is...), then YOU need to change your attitude because it's a losing, pessimistic one! I've been telling friends about Ubooboo, the good and the bad. Still, I'm hopeful for Linux and that's why I'm going to try a different distro and see if anyone has a better way of doing things. I hope there are and that all these different distros aren't just different set-ups. Like, I get my machine running great and then make a distro and call it KensLin and say "It works on my machine, so it might work on yours!" That would be sad...

aysiu

January 13th, 2007, 06:31 AM

It's funny that, when someone makes disparaging remarks about Linux, people want to say "Well! Go back to Windows! We don't need your kind, anyway!" Yeah? Thanks for the words of encouragement! Actually, nobody said, "We don't need your kind, anyway!" I think you're misreading the tone and getting a little too defensive. I can't speak for others, but I've at least been trying to say, "Use what works for you." Clearly Windows works for you. I'm sorry it's expensive, but if it works for you, maybe that money for XP is a worthy investment.

Like others, I think you're writing "Linux" off a little too soon based on your experience with one Linux distribution. That'd be like eating at one Chinese restaurant, not liking it, and then writing off all Asian food.

In any case, Ubuntu (and other distro) developers are working hard to make more GUIs for things, make their distros compatible with more hardware components, and improve the quality of applications. There isn't any complacency among developers. If you have a genuine interest in improving the quality of Ubuntu, I suggest you read this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741). Otherwise, it appears you like to just poke fun at other people, and if you keep up this kind of attitude (calling people losers), you will likely get an infraction or a ban.

maniacmusician

January 13th, 2007, 06:42 AM

RockinDolphin: you obviously don't understand the spirit in which those words were spoken. When we say it's not a replacement for Windows, we're not saying that it can't replace Windows! Rather, we're saying that it should be treated as its own, separate, unique OS.

Our attitude isn't losing or pessimistic at all. In fact, we all know that Linux owns Windows any day of the week. The difference between you and us is that we know the right way to successfully convert Windows users; we've been doing it for a long time.

If you get their hopes up and create high expectations, they're more likely to be dissapointed. If they're unwilling to put up with the learning curve, then they'll give up after a while anyways; we want to convert users that will try hard to adapt to Linux, and stick with it; not people that expect it to work like magic, and then complain if it doesn't.

RockinDolphin

January 13th, 2007, 06:45 AM

I'm not calling people losers per se', just the attitude that Linux isn't good enough to take-on Microsoft. I mean, here I am; a person that's not having a fun-time with his Linux, and I seem to be more optimistic of the Os than the people who can actually use it!

Yeah, I'm upset. I've spent almost all last weekend and any spare time I've had all this past week and I've got half a system. My graphics don't work right, my scanner doesn't work, my printer doesn't work, I can't access my Win98 slave drive and may have messed-up the boot sector as a result.... I might not make the big bucks like some people out there, but my time is worth something, too. A important clue, here: If it takes too long for a home user to get a system up using Linux, then what about a business? And that's the bottom line. It's got to work! It's got to be idiot-proof (Think 'me'.) It's got to make use of intuitive GUI's because that's what we're used to and are looking for. If I were a programmer, I'd be interested in the behind the scenes stuff, but I'm not. Sure, I'd like to understand it, but more than that I want a machine that works. I really don't need to know what magick is going-on behind the GUI, as long as it makes me, and the end result, happy!

aysiu

January 13th, 2007, 06:54 AM

A lack of "intuitive GUIs" has nothing to do with your graphics, scanner, and printer not working. That probably has to do with your unrealistic expectation that Ubuntu is able to work with every conceivable hardware component available. Even Windows doesn't do that. But because Windows is so popular, hardware manufacturers always include Windows drivers because Windows cannot detect everything. And because Ubuntu is not as popular, hardware manufacturers couldn't care less about including Ubuntu drivers.

As for business, most major businesses have IT departments that handle installations and also pay companies like Ubuntu (or, more likely, Red Hat or Novell) to get support.

Windows is not idiot-proof. It's just preinstalled and supported by third-party drivers and third-party software makers.

RockinDolphin

January 13th, 2007, 06:54 AM

I don't buy that. The 'conversion' thing raises the hackles at the base of my scalp. It's strange that I seemed to be answering you even before I read your post...

People don't want to be 'converted'. Maybe persuaded, but not converted.

To say that Linux is it's 'own thing', or whatever is fine. I understand that, but there seems to be a bias against anything Windows, or Windows-like. Windows, whether anyone likes it or not, has revolutionized the way people use and interact with computers. It may not be the best OS, (In fact, what I read somewhere else is a more true statement. Windows was a file manager since, originally, it ran atop of DOS. Even I knew that!) but it helped people lode their fear of using a computer. Unfortunately, Linux is putting that fear back in me, and that's not the way to make it go.

aysiu

January 13th, 2007, 06:57 AM

Unfortunately, Linux is putting that fear back in me, and that's not the way to make it go. Well, why don't we focus on the practical then.

You can:

1. Keep complaining in this thread (which will do nothing to improve your situation or Linux's situation--though it bothers me you keep saying "Linux" when you've used only one Linux distribution).

2. Use something else (Windows, Mac, another Linux distro).

3. Contribute money, time, energy, something productive to improving Ubuntu.

4. Keep using Ubuntu and complaining about how it puts fear into you.

So which is it going to be?

RockinDolphin

January 13th, 2007, 07:06 AM

Yes, but you see we're in a vicious cycle, here, don't you? "GUI's don't make stuff work", "Yeah, but a GUI helps me find out what to do!", "Blame the large corporations for not respecting our OS of choice!" , "Yeah..., but..., if it were easier to use, more people wouldn't be afraid of it and the big companies would come-around soon enough..."

I mean, that's pretty much the gist, isn't it? It just never stops...

I have an ATI Radeon 9200SE. (What, like two, or three years old?) It's not the latest card by any means. My scanner is my first scanner, a Visioneer OneTouch 7600USB (I got it with my very first evar computer, a Gateway Select400 in 1999/2000), Printer is a Canon S600 that I bought in 2001... So we're not talking the latest, greatest stuff, here...

aysiu

January 13th, 2007, 07:09 AM

Well, of course it's a vicious circle. If it weren't, Windows could be easily displaced. But even Apple with its vaunted "ease of use" and pretty graphics is still at only 2-3% of the desktop marketshare (just as Microsoft, with all its power and money, isn't able to displace iPod's dominance of the portable music player market with the Zune).

Windows is deeply entrenched in people's psyches; and corporations, schools, and users alike have grown heavily dependent on Windows-only programs and Windows-only hardware.

You're precisely right--it's a vicious circle. Because Ubuntu is not popular, it gets very little third-party support, and because it gets very little third-party support, it remains unpopular.

RockinDolphin

January 13th, 2007, 07:12 AM

I'm going to try another distro. Like I said, I hope all these distro's aren't a case of the same pair of pants, just a different color, different cut, maybe different stitching, but when you slip into them you find they don't fit quite right.

Anyway, I'll quit griping. DreamLinux should have finished downloading, by now. then, I have to check to make sure it's uncorrupted and maybe try it out. Not sure how I'll do it and keep this distro so what work I've put into it won't be wasted...

aysiu

January 13th, 2007, 07:24 AM

Best of luck with Dream Linux and with your search in general. I hope you find a distro that suits your needs. And, if not, I hope you can save up for a copy of Windows XP.

Shay Stephens

January 13th, 2007, 07:29 AM

Yeah, I'm upset. I've spent almost all last weekend and any spare time I've had all this past week and I've got half a system.

A whole week! Wow! You know, I switched from windows xp to linux, but it took me a year to make the total switch successfully. You may want to reconsider your timetable and adjust your level of patience.

When I first started, Breezy worked on my laptop, but not my desktop. It wasn't until dapper that my desktop finally worked. And it wasn't until edgy that I was able to make the total switch. Along the way, I learned to configure the system, I replaced incompatible hardware, I changed my expectations and opened myself to new solutions to old needs.

In the end, I have achieved my goals. There were some compromises along the way and some things got better too.

One thing that will never help you however is attacking the os and the people on the forum. You may be frustrated, but that is a challenge you will have to get over. And the only way to do that is to learn the new skills that a new OS requires of it's users. If you alienate everyone on the board, no one will want to help you, and then your task will be much much harder to accomplish.

Sit back, regroup, realize that there is no one to blame but yourself, your hardware, and the lousy company that forced you into making these changes. Once the dust clears, you will find things moving along very smoothly and you will wonder why it all seemed so hard in the beginning.

spockrock

January 13th, 2007, 07:38 AM

sorry rock dolphin but your printer is supported and should work,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/redemma/ubuntu/cannon.png

all you have to do is system>administration>printing>add a printer, pick the right port if not automatically detected (other wise pick that) and then the model.

Sorry but flat out my experience with printers in linux vs windows, linux is flat out easier to use, and I have a printer thats hooked up on the lan, and setting up the printer works on ubuntu was a cinch, windows was hit or miss, I could never figure out why my brothers computer could not print, but my dads computer could print. The ip and drivers were setup identically. Right now I have my sisters printer sitting on my floor as I was trouble shooting it, looks like windows has decided to randomly crap out on her, and unable to print no matter how many times I remove and re-install the driver for her printer. That was one of my reasons why I switched as my primary operating system on two of my three computers and my fathers computer to linux, because of reliability. Looks like I am gonna have to reformat and re-install windows my sisters computer.

This is of course if the printer is in supported, hell if its mac supported you can use the mac ppd file.

January 13th, 2007, 07:52 PM

I am not sure what Kurumim is, but I can say that Ununtu is bringing some proriatary drivers to Feisty (April, vers 7.04). If you think you know how to include something, or know someone who can, join the development team. They want to make Ubuntu as user friendly as possible. There are work arounds for things, but they are not always something that can be done by defult.

Ubuntu has always shipped proprietary drivers. Since Warty, The problem here is that you are not allowed to distribute the software modem drivers. The only people who can legally distribute them are the hardware vendors.

So the difference is not only that the drivers are proprietary, but the conditions under which you can use them. The proprietary drivers that Ubuntu ships are freely redistributable. You cannot obtain or change their source code, but you can copy them. Not so for the modem drivers that Ubuntu does not ship.

m.musashi

January 13th, 2007, 07:53 PM

Well, I for one will not identify as having been tech-savvy when I started using Linux. In fact, when I did in April of 2005, I was turned off by Ubuntu's reliance on the command-line at first. That's why I used Mepis instead. Mepis was very user-friendly to point-and-click folks at the time in comparison to Ubuntu (some would argue it still is). After using Mepis for a month, I wanted to give Ubuntu a shot and the Ubuntu Guide (http://www.ubuntuguide.org) really helped me get used to the command-line because all of the commands were useful and in one place for copying and pasting.

That guide is great. Just curious, though, Aysiu, or anyone else, do you know of any good ubuntu related cheat sheets for the terminal? I've searched the web but everything I find is either a bit overwhelming or poorly formatted. I actually like the command line but I can't remember all the commands as I tend to only use them to fix a problem and then never again. When I do have to use it again I don't remember. I just switched to cable internet today and the guy installing didn't know Linux (no surprise). He wanted to know how to restart the network and pull a new ip address. All I could remember was ifconfig but that didn't do anything. I guess it should have been ifconfig up or down and then up. I felt kind of stupid not knowing how to use my own OS. It would have been nice to have had a little cheat sheet I could have pulled out - one that is printable so I don't have to go online.

@rock dolphin. I don't want to sound condescending or anything but I am pretty clueless about Linux and I've managed to install Ubuntu a couple dozen times and it doesn't take more than 20-30 minutes to be up and running. Granted, I don't use a printer or scanner but I do have several digital camers, usb drives and flash drives and even an iPod and I don't have any trouble using them. I have been using Ubuntu for just over a year but I still don't know jack. When I can help someone it's only because I remember how I addressed or fixed a similar issue or remember where I read the answer. I'll admit, however, that it takes a fair amount of patience and an actual desire to overcome obstacles and relearn a lot. Good luck in your endeavors.

renatosilva

January 13th, 2007, 08:23 PM

What do you mean? That there's a lot of drivers that cannot be embeded into Ubuntu? Don't understand.

Ocxic

January 13th, 2007, 08:59 PM

some one made a post a while back about having to re-install propertary drivers after a kernel upgrade, I only have one piece of info.... how many times does the windows kernel get updated??? oh ya, never.
Unless you switch to a different version of windows the MS kernel is never updated that is why you don't have to re-install drivers after a windows update, there kernel is static for that version, Ubuntu/linux's kernels are updated constantly,to provide fixes and new functionality.
There is the reason for having to re-install display drivers after a kernel update, so stop complaining, or use the driver in the repositories.

Tux Aubrey

January 13th, 2007, 09:53 PM

m.musashi's suggestion for "... ubuntu related cheat sheets for the terminal" is a good one. I have always (eventually) found the information I need to get something done but I run a number on computers and dual boot one of them. So even when X is down (nVidia drivers!), I always have some way of getting to these forums or google to trouble shoot. I have also kept an old fashioned notebook (the paper kind) for several months and I make a record of either the problem or what I was trying to do and what commands worked to fix it. This has been a godsend at times.

Some sort of "Ubuntu Rescue Guide" would be great.

One of the first things it would have in it would be guide to what config files to keep back-ups of - and how to restore them from the terminal. (Sometimes the How-Tos in the forum miss that bit).

m.musashi

January 14th, 2007, 12:52 AM

I have also kept an old fashioned notebook (the paper kind) for several months and I make a record of either the problem or what I was trying to do and what commands worked to fix it. This has been a godsend at times.

I probably should have been doing that too. I can always find what I'm looking for (though it often takes a while) so I guess I've just been too lazy to write it down. I should probably just buy a Linux book and keep it on hand. Maybe the new Ubuntu book would be a good choice. Still, if anyone knows of a "cheat sheet" I'd like to hear of one. If someone would like to help me, I'll even create it and host it. I can do basic web pages and I just bought a domain for a business I'm going to try and start. If nothing else, I can use it to host a simple document. However, I would need some input (probably a lot of input:)).

EDIT: Okay, I did a bit more searching and found this (http://www.xminc.com/linux/linuxcheatsheet.pdf). It's close to what I was thinking but I don't know if it includes all that is needed. In the meantime, however, I'm going to print this one out and keep it handy. If anyone finds a better one I'd appreciate hearing about it. Thanks.

RockinDolphin

January 14th, 2007, 05:28 AM

I think someone asked for me to give my impressions of any other distro's that I try, so here's one...

I tried Freespire from the live CD, today, and was quite impressed! Even though there seemed to be support for my printer, it still doesn't print, just like with Ubuntu. I haven't tried the scanner, yet. Also, my internet seemed a little slow, but it installed the driver for my Linksys ethernet card with seemingly no problems. When I got my ethernet up and running with Ub, I had major speed problems that I was finally able to get resolved with the help of the Absolute Beginner's Forum.

I was at Wal-Mart, tonight, and looked for Linspire there, but they didn't have it. I might just try going the free/OSS route and see how it goes, but I'm really tempted by the idea that it will (hopefully) all be in the retail box and I won't have to go through a bunch of hassle to get everything going. Still, considering that I was running from the live CD AND was able to play MP3's right off the disc without having to go-out and download codecs was absolutely fantastic! Also, it saw my Win98SE slave drive and I was able to access the music I had on it! (It did have two sample songs on the .iso, though. Cool!)

Also, I felt more at home with the desktop and the way it more emulates Windows, which I'm used to. I give this distro a big thumbs up!

I'm getting ready to reboot with DreamLinux in the drive in a little bit. I'll let you all know how it goes and what I think, if anyone's interested...

m.musashi

January 14th, 2007, 05:55 AM

Suse might be one to consider too. Having used Ubuntu quite a bit I found it hard to deal with and I'm not a fan of rpm. However, it is an actively developed distro with big backing (including microsoft, I guess - not sure what that's about though). However, Nick Petreley (editor in chief of Linux Journal) made a case for not supporting Suse/Novell (http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1000121) and I think he has a point. Still, we use Suse on our thin client lab at work and it seems quite good. There are gnome and kde versions (and maybe a few other I can't remember) as well.

migla

January 14th, 2007, 07:43 AM

I'd say linux is the better desktop for the computer-illiterate person, once someone sets it up.

One often hears of the average Joe soccer-mom just wanting things to work, wanting her email and web-browsing, maybe a word processor and mp3.

If they only use the computer for these basic tasks, I'd say we are more likely going to be called on to fix their system if it's a windows machine, than if it's running linux. (Because of virii/adware, mysteriously slowed down system, fragmentation, what have you.)

Tux Aubrey

January 14th, 2007, 07:47 AM

Good point migla. Once Ubuntu is set-up, it seems that user interference is the main cause of breakage (let's not mention the September 06 snafu). On the other hand, Windows systems "degrade" with time and use and need restoring, cleaning, defragging etc every few months or they clag completely. That was certainly my experience.

pay

January 14th, 2007, 08:10 AM

On the other hand, Windows systems "degrade" with time and use and need restoring, cleaning, defragging etc every few months or they clag completely. That was certainly my experience.Mine seemed slow after the first time I booted after using Linux for about a year.

Enverex

January 14th, 2007, 12:48 PM

Even though there seemed to be support for my printer, it still doesn't print, just like with Ubuntu. I haven't tried the scanner, yet.

What printer and scanner do you have? If a driver exists I'm sure we can get it working. People need to start realising though that drivers; hardware internal or external are NOT DISTRO SPECIFIC. The arguments that "I switched to DistroB from DistroA because DistroA didn't support my RandomHardwareDevice" are just plain silly. If it works under one distro then you can get it working under the other. Just because it didn't install the drivers by default it doesn't mean that's the be-all and end-all.

Er, sorry for the mini-rant, that wasn't directed at you, just in general as people don't seem to understand that everything wont always be exact from the start.

January 14th, 2007, 02:51 PM

What do you mean? That there's a lot of drivers that cannot be embeded into Ubuntu? Don't understand.

The Intel, Smartlink, Conexant, and a few other modem drivers for linux are not allowed to be put on the install cd or be part of the archives. The companies who write them distribute them under such terms as that they cannot be part of Ubuntu, but you can install ubuntu, download the driver and instal it.

The Lucent software modem driver can be included, but stopped working for most people after Hoary.

You need to go complain to the manufacturers.

renatosilva

January 14th, 2007, 04:58 PM

Good news! I've installed my modem finally!!!!

The Intel, Smartlink, Conexant, and a few other modem drivers for linux are not allowed to be put on the install cd or be part of the archives. The companies who write them distribute them under such terms as that they cannot be part of Ubuntu, but you can install ubuntu, download the driver and instal it.

The Lucent software modem driver can be included, but stopped working for most people after Hoary.

You need to go complain to the manufacturers.

An idea: Like Kurumin, Ubuntu could explain these things to the user: "You have a modem X. The manufacturer does not allow to ....", it would be nice.

Here in Brazil many people still use dial-up, at weekend it's free of charge. So modem support in the easiest way is always welcome, that is, if there exists a list of steps that always need to be performed, then put it all together into a single solution would be nice.

In the case of martian, it could be built a .deb package and be stored in the Ubuntu's non-free repository...

renatosilva

January 14th, 2007, 05:05 PM

Remember of the Bug #1 of Ubuntu and Brazil's population :)

Shay Stephens

January 14th, 2007, 09:50 PM

Just because it didn't install the drivers by default it doesn't mean that's the be-all and end-all.

Not for an experienced user, but someone new who has no idea how to do anything, having a system work with all the hardware is a godsend because you can start using it right away and start learning what you need to learn.

That is the reason I decided on ubuntu. I first tried redhat because I had used it years ago. But I couldn't get the network card working. No network, no go. I tried a number of others that wouldn't work with the screen, or some other crucial piece of tech. When I loaded ubuntu, it all worked, and then so did I.

Once you know what you are doing, then you are in a position to accept and handle hardware not working.

RockinDolphin

January 14th, 2007, 10:06 PM

FyreBrand

January 14th, 2007, 10:29 PM

I tried DreamLinux on the live CD, last night. Although it had a neat thingy on the desk-top, I was overly not impressed. Printer didn't print, but ethernet card hooked-in. 'Didn't try scanner. It started to have some-kind of jittery issues where things quit working. It seemed to be a result of the MP3 player, which is like a pared-down WinAmp, but the sound wasn't good, even after doing some tweaking with the mixer...
If you're still using older hardware and migrating from 98SE you're going to find that any OS install is going to be problematic. My hardware isn't that old (about a year and a half). I do have an OEM WinXP license that came with the computer (Dell Dimension 8400). WinXP doesn't recognize my Intel WinModem (neither does Linux) and I must install third party drivers for it. WinXP doesn't recognize my Broadcom gigabit ethernet card either (Ubuntu does), nor my sound card (Ubuntu does) and native video driver support in WinXP is mediocre at best, but I can at least use 1024x768 until I get an NVidia driver installed.

So I can't connect to the internet when I first do an XP install. In fact Dell had to send my Broadcom drivers when I did a reinstall. I have to then download sound, video drivers, and monitor.inf files from the appropriate sources. This means I have to research on the internet where the appropriate drivers are since there is no centralized repository for this software. It is a lot of work.

One of the only ways you are going to avoid any amount of frustration is to have an OS pre-installed on new equipment. You will get newer hardware and a MS OEM license, but then you have to pay for it. Any other way, whether you choose to install Linux or MSWin, is going to require effort and studying. A healthy dose of frustration will likely accompany both.

PS: Being nice to people goes a lot further than taking your frustrations out on them. No one here is perfect. We are just like you in that we all have computers and just want them to work. To that end we help each other out as much as possible and try and help improve Ubuntu along the way.

RockinDolphin

January 15th, 2007, 04:31 AM

I'm sorry about my rants. However, my rants are, in my opinion, sound. I guess I posted them here hoping that someone who can do something, or is doing something, will...., do something! As it is, I doubt it will be me. I don't ever like to say never, but I don't have the skillz to help-out with the project. Yes, yes, i could learn and all that, and undoubtedly will pick-up some along the way, but it's too little, too late. I've got too many other fires, at this stage in my life...

Actually, I would think that, as long as the hardware isn't old, it would maybe have a better chance of running, as opposed to the more cutting-edge stuff.

My processor is an 1GHz AMD Duron, I just replaced my Linksys card last summer due to an electrical storm. Turtle Beach sound card I bought last year. (I probably bought it because the packaging looked nice...) Canon printer I wouldn't consider all that old, although I got it in 2001. I mean, it's a darn good printer! Also, my scanner does a good job and, let's face it, it's a scanner. Nothing really major going on there...

It seems to me that the people who have more to crow about the different distro's are actually experienced Linux users. At least I'm trying to look into this thing and give it a chance, and all. The thing is, I'm finding it more difficult than I think it ought to be to make the switch, and I'm doing my best to be open-minded and objective. What about other people who might like to , but will be turned-off by the very things I've griped about? Does that make them/us wrong?

Anyway, I'm still doing my research...

Frak

January 15th, 2007, 04:39 AM

Just me, but I tested the FreeSpire Alpha today on my computer, on which I put all my parts on that don't run under Ubuntu, which isn't much, all Hardware was Detected on startup with FreeSpire, and, from my point of view, better with LinSpire, but I'd still rather use Linux, and put effort into helping the community, like posting daily reports on my testing with Fiesty. It all counts in the long run.

medley

January 15th, 2007, 05:51 PM

*sigh* So many people here don't have a clue how things work in linux shooting their mouth off. ](*,) It's just too much to quote and address.

Hmmm, now HERE's a thoughtful response....

"...people who don't have a clue how Linux works shooting their mouth off". Buddy, joe average (you know, the one who will determine whether Linux takes over or not?) couldn't care less how Linux, or Windows, or OSX or BeOS or anything works. That's the whole point, isn't it? They just want it to work. Those poor simpletons.

For the record, my rant wasn't inspired by NV's drivers giving me grief. That was just the latest in a litany of hassles.

By the way, people who don't have a clue generally won't shoot their mouths of; they just won't use Linux.

Have a nice day.

saulgoode

January 15th, 2007, 06:17 PM

By the way, people who don't have a clue generally won't shoot their mouths of; they just won't use Linux.
And don't think that that goes unappreciated. :)

Shay Stephens

January 15th, 2007, 06:52 PM

"...people who don't have a clue how Linux works shooting their mouth off". Buddy, joe average (you know, the one who will determine whether Linux takes over or not?) couldn't care less how Linux, or Windows, or OSX or BeOS or anything works. That's the whole point, isn't it? They just want it to work. Those poor simpletons.

I am the same way with cars. I don't care how they work, I just want it to work and get me from point A to point B and I don't want any hassle along the way. I crave ignorance in this field and don't want to bog my head with details of something I care nothing about. I just need the utility of what a car provides.

I don't drive for the thrill or enjoyment of it. For me, driving is a necessary evil. And the less it saturates my life the better.

I know of plenty of people who feel the same way about computers.

aysiu

January 15th, 2007, 07:17 PM

It's one thing not to know how an OS works. It's another entirely not to understand market forces and general compatibility.

No Mac user buys a PC game and then complains to Apple the game didn't work on her Mac.

Yet, people will complain that they can't run X commercial software on Linux when X commercial software is Windows-only.

A lot of complaints are just dumb because they have nothing to do with software quality and everything to do with social and economic forces.

It would be like complaining back in the early 70s that Wal-Mart can never make it big because it has locations only in the Midwest and South, whereas Sears has locations everywhere. Wal-Mart couldn't help it at the time. It basically started off as just a mom-and-pop kind of store. Look where it is now!

The consumer often has no clue what she's talking about when it comes to criticisms of a business, and it has nothing to do with understanding how a car works or how a computer works.

Shay Stephens

January 15th, 2007, 08:06 PM

It's one thing not to know how an OS works. It's another entirely not to understand market forces and general compatibility.

No Mac user buys a PC game and then complains to Apple the game didn't work on her Mac.

Yet, people will complain that they can't run X commercial software on Linux when X commercial software is Windows-only.

I think I see what you mean. I own a Nissan car. As little as I know about cars, I do know that I can't go to the local Ford dealership and pick a hyper-spanner dohickey and expect it to work in my Nissan. Even my grandmother would know that expectation would be foolish.

Yet for some unknown reason, that same expectation is not the same when it comes to computers...interesting.

Could it be a problem with branding? People get confused with what OS is running, some will say they run windows, while others will say they run the Dell operating system.

When I buy a Chevy pickup, I don't usually think about who makes the engine, I just know I need Chevy parts. That same thinking may be clouding the more complex relationships with computers and their hardware and operating systems.

"I have a dell, and little johnie just installed linux on it. It's still says dell on the outside, and it came with yabbadabbadoo 3.0, so it should still work."

aysiu

January 15th, 2007, 08:16 PM

Could it be a problem with branding? People get confused with what OS is running, some will say they run windows, while others will say they run the Dell operating system. Yes, I believe you're correct here.

After all, it's common for people to say "Do you use a PC or a Mac?" On the one hand, you can say that a Mac is a PC, but the understanding is both that a Mac is not a PC and that a PC is necessarily a Windows PC. Rarely, if you answer "A PC," will someone follow up and ask you, "Oh, a Windows PC or a Linux PC?"

I think the main issue is that most people who migrate to desktop Linux assume it's just a cost-free, virus-free version of Windows. I don't believe fully in the article "Linux is not Windows" (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm)--especially since a lot of distros like Ubuntu do care about the end-user and are not just a developer's plaything--but I do believe a lot of users come in with an extremely unrealistic expectation of desktop Linux that they do not even hold Mac OS X to, even though OS X has more commercial software support.

Ubuntu can definitely be made more point-and-click user-friendly, it's definitely headed that way, too, but blaming it for not having easily installable commercial software or for not having drivers for certain hardware isn't a worthwhile complaint.

If people want to be helpful and constructive with criticism, they don't have to know how to compile a kernel or write a program, but they should know what the obstacles are that desktop Linux faces: more specifically, which obstacles are in the developers' control and which are outside the developers' control.

What bothers me the most is the presumption of a lot of "critiques" of Ubuntu that developers do nothing and are fully satisfied with Ubuntu as is. This couldn't be further from the truth. At all times, Ubuntu developers are working hard to improve the OS, and you can see what features they're working on. In fact, taking a quick peek at the upcoming release's specifications (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+specs), you can easily see they have their hands full. Most ex-Windows users are used to Microsoft's release cycle, which takes years to release a new OS version that will stay static for a while. They're not used to an OS that has new features added every six months.

Most importantly, the very fact that Ubuntu is not preinstalled on most people's computers means people hold it to the unrealistic expectation of necessarily having to detect and autoconfigure every conceivable hardware combination possible--something even Windows cannot do. This has everything to do with marketshare and little to do with software quality.

As someone pointed out earlier, it's a vicious cycle. Without more third-party support, Ubuntu won't become more popular; and without being popular, Ubuntu won't get more third-party support.

Frak

January 15th, 2007, 08:41 PM

Maybe there could be a way to teach people about computers, and the dangers, ethics, and what-not of certain OS's, hardware, software, etc.

euler_fan

January 16th, 2007, 06:07 AM

Maybe there could be a way to teach people about computers, and the dangers, ethics, and what-not of certain OS's, hardware, software, etc.

I would be thrilled if there is, but somehow I doubt for most people it would overcome the indifference factor. The indifference factor goes something like this:
1) If I'm not doing anything illegal, then the NSA having a back door isn't really a problem
2) So long as I can still do X,Y,Z everyday tasks, why does it matter if the software I use is free or not?
3) When I bought my machine it came with a free copy of Windows, and since it seems to work fine for me, why should I change?
4) Linux will cost me all kinds of time to learn, and I have better things to do with my time . . .
and so on and so on.
EDIT: 5) I paid for my anti-virus/firewall/intrusion detection/comprehensive-Internet-keep-out-the-hackers-software, so I must be safe.

In short, I think despite what many of us would find wrong with the points above, many (most?) people will still find windows to be just fine for what they do with it, and when you combine that with the attitude of "it can't happen to me" about viruses, hackers, identity theft, real theft, etc (most of the bad things in life, really), it just won't matter if:
1) Open source is more secure
2) It is free as in speech
3) Windows is really NOT free as in beer when preloaded
4) . . .
and so on. I suspect many of these same reason are why people don't bother even going that one small step by buying a Mac. ](*,)

houstonbofh

January 16th, 2007, 06:46 AM

I would be thrilled if there is, but somehow I doubt for most people it would overcome the indifference factor. The indifference factor goes something like this;

But all that gets blown out of the water the third time they have to pay to clean up the system because "Little Johnie got some crap on it." I have converted a few customers over to Linux this way. To bad they ain't repeat customers after that. ;) At least they refer friends.

euler_fan

January 17th, 2007, 05:10 AM

But all that gets blown out of the water the third time they have to pay to clean up the system because "Little Johnie got some crap on it." I have converted a few customers over to Linux this way. To bad they ain't repeat customers after that. ;) At least they refer friends.

You make a very good point, and I agree in that situation most people will see the light.

I am just wondering how many people would need that kind of experience--or would need to watch a friend/neighbor/relative have that kind of experience--before switching.

I would like it to take less than that, but there might be no way around it. ](*,)

FyreBrand

January 17th, 2007, 09:50 PM

I am the same way with cars. I don't care how they work, I just want it to work and get me from point A to point B and I don't want any hassle along the way. I crave ignorance in this field and don't want to bog my head with details of something I care nothing about. I just need the utility of what a car provides.

I don't drive for the thrill or enjoyment of it. For me, driving is a necessary evil. And the less it saturates my life the better.

I know of plenty of people who feel the same way about computers.Your car doesn't "just work" just like your computer and software don't "just work". You don't stand next to your can and have it do the rest (load you in, autostart, move from A to B, and eject you).

You must know the following about your car:
1. How to drive it. You must learn the local rules and laws of the road and associated with being a licensed motor vehicle operator. In fact in most places in the world you pay the government to certify you and grant you the privilege of driving your automobile. You must go through a written and practical certification to be granted this privilege.

2. How to provide Maintenance. If you don't provide maintenance for your vehicle (even basic routine maintenance), then you must at least know what the maintenance items are and what schedule they require. Then you must also pay someone to do that for you. If you don't do that your vehicle will eventually operate poorly and break down. Then it won't "just work".

3. Learn to navigate. You can't get in your vehicle and drive down any given road taking turns at a whim and expect to arrive at your destination. You must learn (and memorize) your local area. You have to learn to read a map if you're travelling outside of your area.

4. Optional: Adding additional functionality. If you aren't satisfied with the factory installed equipment you must learn to install it yourself or pay someone a lot of money to do it for you. Have you ever purchased a radio for your car? Many come with a conversion kit and faceplate template of some kind so that it looks nice and hooks up properly with the wiring in your vehicle. Depending on how common or rare your vehicle is and how nice the radio your purchased is depends on the ease of installation and how well it "just works". Have you ever installed a radio improperly or had to rig the wiring and then had the radio stations not come in well or buzz because it was hooked into the wrong power? If the fancy radio is pre-installed at the factory then it tends to work a lot better.

I hope you and the other car analogy enthusiasts see where I'm going with this. You are taking a lot for granted in the definition of "just works". Empathy for those who are frustrated is great (I think we all need that), but let's keep perspective on what we're saying in that just works idea.

Shay Stephens

January 17th, 2007, 09:57 PM

Your car doesn't "just work" just like your computer and software don't "just work".

Those are some really good points!

FLPCGuy

January 18th, 2007, 12:45 AM

But all that gets blown out of the water the third time they have to pay to clean up the system because "Little Johnie got some crap on it." I have converted a few customers over to Linux this way. To bad they ain't repeat customers after that. ;) At least they refer friends.
I haven't even faired that well. None of the users I support are willing to try Linux even after lousy to disasterous experiences with Windows bogging down by itself or due to viruses and adWare. Yet they all are open to Vista which has at least as steep a learning curve, just as few drivers, and it costs hundreds in extra hardware just to run as well as XP.

I guess it is mostly about marketing. An 'Apple' today has not one item in common with a Mac of a few years ago, not hardware or software. Yet the Apple mistique still commands a ridiculous price premium. Go figure.

houstonbofh

January 18th, 2007, 06:35 AM

I haven't even faired that well. None of the users I support are willing to try Linux even after lousy to disasterous experiences with Windows bogging down by itself or due to viruses and adWare. Yet they all are open to Vista which has at least as steep a learning curve, just as few drivers, and it costs hundreds in extra hardware just to run as well as XP.

I guess it is mostly about marketing. An 'Apple' today has not one item in common with a Mac of a few years ago, not hardware or software. Yet the Apple mistique still commands a ridiculous price premium. Go figure.
Just wait until they have spent 2 times the cost of the computer to fix it. Then bid a deal to install and support for 6 months, guaranteed. All of your support will be in week one, and most of it remote. Build that into the cost.

Brunellus

January 18th, 2007, 05:50 PM

Just wait until they have spent 2 times the cost of the computer to fix it. Then bid a deal to install and support for 6 months, guaranteed. All of your support will be in week one, and most of it remote. Build that into the cost.
This overstates the cost tremendously--especially since most users don't even really pay the costs to keep things clean and running at maximum efficiency.

FLPCGuy

January 18th, 2007, 10:27 PM

So I can't connect to the internet when I first do an XP install. In fact Dell had to send my Broadcom drivers when I did a reinstall....This means I have to research on the internet where the appropriate drivers are since there is no centralized repository for this software. It is a lot of work....
.
Dell has had the largest driver support website of any major PC vendor for over a decade but still has slim support for Linux.
Dell Dimension 8400 XP drivers (http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/devices.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&SystemID=DIM_PNT_P4_8400&os=WW1&osl=EN)
Dell Dimension 8400 RedHat (http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/devices.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&SystemID=DIM_PNT_P4_8400&os=LN90&osl=EN) drivers
Dell Driver Support (http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/index.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen) general

FLPCGuy

January 18th, 2007, 10:38 PM

Just wait until they have spent 2 times the cost of the computer to fix it. Then bid a deal to install and support for 6 months, guaranteed. All of your support will be in week one, and most of it remote. Build that into the cost.
I've been supporting some customers for seven years and they can still barely get email and go belly up if anything at all is different in their keystroke routine.

Yesterday I dropped in on a small business where I had connected broadband and sold a CD writer for backup. They had ignored three error messages for a year and thought they had been making daily backups to a CD-RW but had never successfully done one since my initial demo last Summer. The hard disk was 99.9% full but Win9x was still running with no anti-virus, firewall, or updates.

I can't imagine even teaching them to use QuickBooks in Vista let alone using Ubuntu. It would be a lifetime commitment albeit basically the same lessons every week.

FyreBrand

January 19th, 2007, 07:49 AM

Dell has had the largest driver support website of any major PC vendor for over a decade but still has slim support for Linux.
Dell Dimension 8400 XP drivers (http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/devices.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&SystemID=DIM_PNT_P4_8400&os=WW1&osl=EN)
Dell Dimension 8400 RedHat (http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/devices.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&SystemID=DIM_PNT_P4_8400&os=LN90&osl=EN) drivers
Dell Driver Support (http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/index.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen) generalDell does have good driver support, but you just have to be able to connect there in the first place.

I'm really happy with the Dell desktop I have. It's held up well so far and the hardware all works great together. I don't have much criticism there overall.

You hit the one sore point on the head though. They have horrid and grudging Linux support. In fact I think they only officially support (at least for the home or small business desktop owner) RHEL4 and older RedHat 9. Their main bios upgrade utilities are Windows based or require a DOS boot from floppy (which the newer machines don't have).

Enverex

January 19th, 2007, 01:18 PM

Dell has had the largest driver support website of any major PC vendor for over a decade but still has slim support for Linux.
Dell Dimension 8400 XP drivers (http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/devices.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&SystemID=DIM_PNT_P4_8400&os=WW1&osl=EN)
Dell Dimension 8400 RedHat (http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/devices.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&SystemID=DIM_PNT_P4_8400&os=LN90&osl=EN) drivers
Dell Driver Support (http://support.dell.com/support/downloads/index.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen) general

That's not really true. All Dell hardware is just other things rebadged as Dell, so all Dell do is stick their name on the drivers then put them up on their own website. So not only are they a middle-man in sales, they are when it comes to drivers too. The best thing to do is find out what hardware you're really using and get the drivers from the manufacturers site, they are likely to be more up-to-date too.

WorkingOnWise

January 19th, 2007, 05:28 PM

I will say that Linux is totally ready for the Desktop right now, today. And it isn't ready yet, and has likely a few more years before it is.
I an a hardware tech, desktop and server administrator, master tinkerer and certified master auto mechanic (Yes...you CAN fix a PC with a hammer!). That said, I, like many on this forum, am by far the most computer literate person I personally know. I tried linux 4 years ago. Mandrake, redhat and gentoo, and Yellow Dog. My head still has a flat spot from the monitor! Windows 2000 was my main OS, and I was quite happy with it, but I liked the flexability of the open source community, and I was long tired of patches from redmond breaking other stuff!
December 27th I installed Ubuntu Christian edition after looking for what I now know is dansguardian, for my WinXP Home (BLACHHH! Yukky!) laptop. No joy in windows, found Ubuntu CE, say that it would shrink my windows drive and live happily on with Windows. I hit install, went thru the installer, and rebooted. Out of the box, I was blown away! Laptops are tought boxes for Windows most times, so the fact that only wifi and pcmcia and modem didn't work was impressive (and wifi was a 10 minuts research project and a 5 minute fix....including the reboot!)
This is how Linux needs to be. Plus, I played with it live on the cd too. I'd love to see them give me that ability with Vista!
It is so good out of the box, in fact, that my wife, a way-not-computer-nerd, actually wanted...asked for, the same distro I run after she say it on the live cd! That is progress my friends, as any of you married men can attest to!
Linux is polished beyond all of my expectations! On December 30th, I replaced my drive with a 80GB 7200rpm unit, and *did not* put windows on it at all! I have wine on it, and 4 windoes apps that I just love are running sweetly with that awesome project. These apps do have comparable cousins in Linux, but I figured it's ok to hold dear to them. Why give it up if it works as good in Linus as in Windows?

And it's not ready yet for the desktop. There are soooo many duplicate projects...so many projets with incomplete code, and especially incomplete documentation. There are simply too many choices! Choice, like all things, in excess is counter-productive. To the user, because they don't have the knowledge to pick what will work best for them, so they either don't pick, or pick wrong and get frustrated. Frustration is bad for any product, and especially so for Linux, because each frustration is linked to Linux in general, not just to the offending app.
To the developers because they end up competing with other projects for developer skills, and user input. There are 3 major Office suites I know of in Linux. One rocks, one is mediocre, and one has so little buz on the net that I didn't even install it to have an opinion. They all need work. Same with PIM's. And web development tools...and on and on.
The point is that the range of apps, and state of those apps, is soo far flung that the un-informed linux newbie has no idea where to go. They try 5 differant apps for the same thing and none are complete. They get frusterated with Linux... and crawl back to the comfort of Windows. It is slow, resource hungry, rigid, less secure, more restrictive, and more expensive in software and hardware...but it is farmilure and therefore more useful and less frustrating to them.

I am gratful to have the knowledge I have, to know how to find and impliment the solutions to the problems I run into in Linux, and to know that I really just traded in for a new set of problems when I left Windows, as well as gained.

Most users arent so lucky.

We have a lot of work to do still.

*stepping down from the podium*

Peace
Keith

sporx

January 19th, 2007, 05:47 PM

I like my OSX.

aysiu

January 19th, 2007, 05:50 PM

Ubuntu deliberately chooses only one application per task by default so as not to confuse new users.

If they later want to explore other application alternatives, they also have that choice.

Enverex

January 19th, 2007, 06:00 PM

I think "Ready for the desktop" means you can do basic home PC tasks. Browse the web, install on common PCs, write letters and other similar things. It can do all those so I believe it is ready for the desktop. What it isn't ready for, however, is the users that assume that every aspect of every single thing on a PC should always "just work" without them having to ever do anything or use their head.

Darkbladedancer

January 19th, 2007, 10:29 PM

I'm new to linux, after finding out that some random chinese program had invaded my copy of windows. Needless to say, I was not happy

I first have to say that while I love ubuntu, there's definitely a learning curve. I've been working with ubuntu for a month, and there are sometime when I still feel like this ](*,) .

In order to make ubuntu (or any linux distro) really ready for mass appeal, I think they need three things.

1. Support - I'm not talking like support where you call someone and ask for help, what I mean is that linux needs to be able to have some default support for any hardware that anybody has out of the box. People aren't going to want to fool around trying to figure out how to make their video card or sound card work if they can just install windows and have it done. This probably means linux drivers on the CD's that hardware gets shipped with, which is, of course, a problem.

2. Defaults - When you're using windows, what do you use for office? Microsoft Office. When you use linux? well, there's Open Office, and Star Office, and...you get the drift. Linux needs a few things that are 100% working and easy-to-use so new users are not overwhelmed by choices that they may not understand. This means that default office software is Open Office, default internet is Firefox, default media player is Rhythmbox (though Rhythmbox isn't perfect) and other default software that works for what 'normal' users do most of the time. (Internet, E-mail, Office, maybe Games, etc...)

Ubuntu works well in this regard, but what really needs to happen is to have this level of defaults on all linux distros. That and these programs need to be able to do everything that their competitors do.

3. Stigma - (well, overcoming it). Lets face it, only nerds use linux, that's what most people think , anyway. Linux needs to overcome this stigma if it's going to reach a larger level of popularity. I don't think that 'desktop ready' means that it can be run on a desktop easily, it means that people want to use it on their systems. Until linux gets to a level at which the football players are talking about what distro they use, there's still work to do (but by that time, Microsoft and Redmond will have to be long dead, in other words, it's a pipe dream). Seriously though, linux needs to get to a level where things are easy enough to use that anybody can do it right the first time (I think I've had to reinstall 3 or 4 times now, but I'm learning). Only then can it become 'less nerdy' -- and thus a more acceptable choice for people who don't want the 'nerd' stigma attached to them.

aysiu

January 19th, 2007, 10:32 PM

#1 and #2 aren't Linux supporting hardware or Linux supporting office. It's quite the other way around. It's about hardware manufacturers supporting Linux or Microsoft supporting Linux (by porting Microsoft Office--or better yet embracing a free format like .odt instead of continuing with a closed format like .doc).

What happens when Windows doesn't recognize the new video card or sound card or web cam you just bought? Oh, how nice of the hardware manufacturer to include a CD with the Windows drivers to make up for Windows' deficiency. They don't do that for Linux.

Frak

January 19th, 2007, 10:37 PM

aysiu

January 19th, 2007, 10:40 PM

Actually those drivers off of that disc can be very helpful, they are almost always .inf or .exe, if .exe just extract the .inf file out of it and use NDISWrapper to install the Windows driver, the Linux community can find a way around almost anything! ;)
I thought ndiswrapper was for only wireless drivers. I don't believe that'll work for printers or other peripherals.

Frak

January 19th, 2007, 11:33 PM

It will work with some other hardware, contrary to popular belief.

Daveski

January 20th, 2007, 12:22 AM

What happens when Windows doesn't recognize the new video card or sound card or web cam you just bought? Oh, how nice of the hardware manufacturer to include a CD with the Windows drivers to make up for Windows' deficiency. They don't do that for Linux.

And your drivers still need to be Microsoft Certified if you want Windows to work properly (well with support anyway). I do like the idea that Windows can automatically contact a driver repository via the internet to allow it to always support hardware newer than your OS.

kalikiana

January 20th, 2007, 12:22 AM

Enverex

January 20th, 2007, 12:52 AM

It will work with some other hardware, contrary to popular belief.

Can you give any examples?

FyreBrand

January 20th, 2007, 02:37 AM

That's not really true. All Dell hardware is just other things rebadged as Dell, so all Dell do is stick their name on the drivers then put them up on their own website. So not only are they a middle-man in sales, they are when it comes to drivers too. The best thing to do is find out what hardware you're really using and get the drivers from the manufacturers site, they are likely to be more up-to-date too.Actually I think it is very true. Dell doesn't just Frankenstein a bunch of hardware together they generally make sure the hardware is specc'd and talks right. I build Windows images and maintain a small group (90) desktops for a division of the employment department. The Dell branded PC's always seem to play much nicer than the machines purchased from a local vendor.

I have been given permission to install Kubuntu on a few machines as a test bed. Our hardware and licensing budget is tight. Kubuntu installs without much trouble on the Dells (which have Intel boards and integrated devices).

A bit more on topic:
I always think it's funny when I see "Is Linux ready for the desktop?" For us it is more like are we finally ready to tackle some of the hurdles necessary to implement this in a desktop environment. It's a pretty fun challenge and also exciting. I know that once I work out the hardware and networking kinKs and can get a system in place it will be easier and cheaper to maintain images and upgrades.

Frak

January 20th, 2007, 03:22 AM

Can you give any examples?
Just from other users, but NDISWrapper wraps a Windows compatability layer around .INF files, and as a matter of fact 90% of the drivers out there, Windows will only use this, are .INF, so in fact NDISWrapper can do the job fine, just remember to enable it if using the CLI, the GUI should do it automatically.

Enverex

January 20th, 2007, 03:41 AM

Seiti

January 20th, 2007, 03:43 AM

It´s ready.
A fri0end of mine got a Sharp japanese Laptop and tried a US WinXP on it. Almost nothing worked (sound, Wi-fi, correct video resolution), but ALL worked flawless on Ubuntu Live CD.

Then I run lspci, caught all the info, and started the quest for windows drivers (the windows update never worked for drivers...).

euler_fan

January 20th, 2007, 03:44 AM

Linux is ready for the desktop if at least half of the hardware manufacturers fully support it and a preinstalled computer is usable for most people.

In my opinion it doesn't have anything to do with beginners being able to install everything themselves.

I would say that is a reasonable position. It would seem to be much of what Windows has going for it.

I voted "meaningless" incidentally because while I agree kalikiana about what a good rule of thumb would be, and I think those conditions would make Linux very accessible, what makes an OS "desktop-ready" really depends on what you want to use it for and whether or not you are willing to put in the work (and money) to maintain it, etc. An OS with one user can be, IMHO, just as "desktop-ready" as an OS with 100 million users.

Overall, however, if one or two major vendors sold machines at a competative price either vanilla with linux driver support or with one's choice of three or four major flavors installed (perhaps Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, or OpenSUSE?) and driver support, that would be absolutely amazing :D

Frak

January 20th, 2007, 04:13 AM

This sounds highly unlikely as it would be far more widely used if it was infact true. Do you have any actual "yes, it works with blah and it's been tested" sort of user responses?
I never said it always worked, but it would be a good try, but most of the time it doesn't.

Contrid

January 20th, 2007, 07:32 AM

As a full time web developer (don't look at the sites in my sig...I'm moving to a new ds), using Linux 95% of the time, I feel that Linux is ready for the desktop.

I used Windows for years, always feeling trapped by a vast amount of factors inside and related to the Windows operating system. Since I've been using Linux, my production has increased and everyday work has been a breeze.

In the past, there were two things holding me back from using Linux only. These two things are Photoshop and Flash. I had to dual boot every 15 minutes in order to get my things done. I then found and installed vmware server and haven't dual booted a single time since.

The forums are great. Everyone on the forums are extremely helpful and answer the most seemingly uneducated and unprofessional questions in order to help one out. I think that an icon should be placed on the Ubuntu desktop upon a new installation which will open the forums in a browser.

Obviously there are many other factors which hold users back from completely moving to Linux, specifically such as games. I don't play games, and haven't played them for years. It's a waste of time and energy. (just my opinion)

What more could anyone possibly ask for?
Ubuntu has everything you need, including improved speed, security, usability and most importantly, FREEDOM!!! Btw...the terminal is the best thing since sliced bread. :D

FLPCGuy

January 20th, 2007, 07:58 PM

Dell does have good driver support, but you just have to be able to connect there in the first place.

I'm really happy with the Dell desktop I have. It's held up well so far and the hardware all works great together. I don't have much criticism there overall.

You hit the one sore point on the head though. They have horrid and grudging Linux support. In fact I think they only officially support (at least for the home or small business desktop owner) RHEL4 and older RedHat 9. Their main bios upgrade utilities are Windows based or require a DOS boot from floppy (which the newer machines don't have).
That's right. Most users trying to install Vista to a PC with SATA raid drives won't know how to or be able to install the SATA drivers via floppy as expected early in the startup process (F6 while Windows is checking the computer if I remember correctly). Earlier thumb drive support needs to be added to the BIOS and OS install routines. Floppies are dead technology.

I just don't understand why hw mfrs. don't provide Linux binaries. They are just thumbing their nose at a million buyers.

mssever

January 20th, 2007, 11:15 PM

Just from other users, but NDISWrapper wraps a Windows compatability layer around .INF files, and as a matter of fact 90% of the drivers out there, Windows will only use this, are .INF, so in fact NDISWrapper can do the job fine, just remember to enable it if using the CLI, the GUI should do it automatically.

I haven't tried it--I don't have any reason to--but I doubt it would work. As I understand it, NDISWrapper basically translates Linux system calls to Win calls, and vice versa. So, in order to work with all hardware, ndis would have to know about all the calls for all hardware.

Plus, network drivers have to be among the easiest to write--especially when compared to printer drivers or something.

Furious1

January 21st, 2007, 08:09 PM

Linux is different.
Please take time to read http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm - it answers all the questions, it helped me to understand Linux difference too ;)

Excellent article. As a long time Windows user (I run my own computer business) and newbie to Linux that was very helpful. Thank you.

jvc26

January 21st, 2007, 08:15 PM

Welcome to the community. It will be a learning curve, but if you're willing to put some time in its not awful. The forums are amazing places to learn stuff. I came to Ubuntu having never used anything but Windows (apart from a very old mac) and now I'm fully functional, and still learning loads more - something I did realise, using Ubuntu makes you really get to know your way around your computer so much more than when you use Windows.
Il

ardchoille42

January 21st, 2007, 08:19 PM

It helps to look at it this way:

A skateboard will get you from point A to point B and there isn't much you need to know. However, a fighter jet will get you there much faster and provide a lot more protection during the journey, but you will have to learn a lot more in order to use it. Windows does a lot of hand-holding and I feel that keeps the user ignorant. If you have a fatal error in Windows, the average user won't know where to start to try to fix it. Linux, on the other hand, makes it so the user has to learn more about software and hardware, but that is an education which is priceless. The average Linux user will be better equipped to handle problems because he/she has to learn more about a more powerful OS.

Windows, in my opinion, is garbage.. garbage you have to pay to use. You can't legally use it on more than one computer and you can't legally give it away. Besides, I wouldn't trust a closed source OS.. there's no telling how much of the information you type in (ie, social sceurity numbre, DOB, private info) is being transmitted somewhere without your knowledge.

Linux is a more powerful and secure OS that can be freely copied and distributed. I would trust an open source OS because there is an entire community looking at the code.. any malicious code would be brought to the attention of the community immediately.

johnnymac

January 21st, 2007, 08:20 PM

Remember these words...

Linux is very user friendly - it's just picky about who it's friends are...

HAH!

purebuilt

January 21st, 2007, 09:50 PM

Linux is hard because it is written by programmers. Programmers are not like the rest of us who want to use computers with as little Cognitive Friction as possible. They, on the other hand, like things that are complicated. To them it is a challenge and they have no idea how to create programs or operating systems that are not complicated and difficult to use--they can't even relate to your plight at all.

For example: I've tried for weeks to upgrade to 6.10 but there is no way to do it that isn't complicated (this is why Ubuntu is doomed) because there is no one on the developement team who is commited to designing the OS to accomodate the user not the other way round. To them it makes sense for me, the user, to have to put in the time to learn the system and type cryptic measages in the Terminal instead of the computer allowing me to just click to do what I want.

I've downloaded the image many times now to update to 6.10 but when you run the partitioner it gives you an error! Why did they mess with the partitioner which worked so well? They can't help it, it is what programmers do. So now something that worked well is broken and many of us who liked Ubuntu are thinking of giving up on it.

I hope they finally recruit someone on the developement team who will puts the user first. They should all read Alan Cooper's book, The Inmates Are Running the Assylum because that's exactly the problem.

xmastree

January 21st, 2007, 10:05 PM

I've downloaded the image many times now to update to 6.10 but when you run the partitioner it gives you an error!
Low on RAM? I have a 800MHz/256MB desktop here. I can install 5.10 but not 6.06, unless I use xubuntu 6.06 instead.

The 'install from the live CD' approach doesn't work well low RAM systems.

MkfIbK7a

January 21st, 2007, 10:44 PM

the error could be that gparted can handle such a large drive i got that once i just had to manually partiton...

doobit

January 21st, 2007, 10:48 PM

MkfIbK7a

January 21st, 2007, 10:59 PM

Uhm, all OSs are written by programmers. Ubuntu is far from doomed. Maybe you just need
a little more personal help.

exactly my sentiments

are you saying windows wasnt written by programmers!?!?:confused: :confused:

detyabozhye

January 22nd, 2007, 01:49 AM

are you saying windows wasnt written by programmers!?!?:confused: :confused:

Of course, you think they actually have real programmers in Redmond? LOL XD

detyabozhye

January 22nd, 2007, 01:50 AM

Daveski

January 22nd, 2007, 02:10 AM

For example: I've tried for weeks to upgrade to 6.10 but there is no way to do it that isn't complicated (this is why Ubuntu is doomed) because there is no one on the developement team who is commited to designing the OS to accomodate the user not the other way round. To them it makes sense for me, the user, to have to put in the time to learn the system and type cryptic measages in the Terminal instead of the computer allowing me to just click to do what I want.

Why is Ubuntu doomed because upgrading to an unstable development release isn't a one click-always-works option? This would be more valid if the upgrade from this stable release to the next had major problems.

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that Ubuntu is a 'product' which has been released in its final state. This is an ongoing project and as this system develops the development team will make these sort of tasks easier and more stable. I think it is unfair to say that no one is commited to designing the distribution to accomodate the user as this is one of the main driving forces in the philosophy of this particular distribution.

Feedback from the community will contribute to the progress of this distribution - especially if you think you have found a bug and report this in the official place.

Frak

January 22nd, 2007, 02:11 AM

exactly my sentiments

are you saying windows wasnt written by programmers!?!?:confused: :confused:
You can't call monkeys programmers...

MkfIbK7a

January 22nd, 2007, 05:28 AM

You can't call monkeys programmers...

well you know the saying

if you put 1000 monkeys in a room together theyll eventually write the works of shakespere

my saying is

if you put a monkeys brain in a room 3 seconds later you will have windows vista

:lolflag:

jornahow

January 23rd, 2007, 06:27 AM

I am not a neophyte computer user and not a Microsoft fan. I approached Ubuntu after a lengthy linux hiatus to find a windows alternative I could stay with. It took considerable effort to get edgy 64 to work on my core2duo p965 mobo after much trolling through the forums, I got most things working (still can't get Audacity to work and no help from forum posts on this issue, also no easy flash which I've come to expect as a no-brainer install, but not with 64 bit linux).

My big complaint is that automatic updates kicked me out of a working system with no readily apparent fix. I was running Beryl with beta Nvidia 9742 graphics and all was working well. My windows compatriots were amazed. It was fast, smooth and did not crash. I had kept my system up to date and upgraded beryl from .1.1 to .1.2 to .1.3 Then came a bunch of security updates and some beryl updates. The next thing I know my login screen kicks me out just as my desktop is loading, I can briefly see my wallpaper then the screen goes black I get the Nvidia beta splash and I'm back to my login screen. I won't bore you with the protracted process of getting my machine back up (now absent beryl).

The real point of this message is that, as much maligned as windows is, Ubuntu will not make it as a mainstream OS for 'everyman' until it incorporates a restore function like windows that either creates, or allows the user to create set points with a safe startup utility that will allow the computer to be restored to an earlier configuration so as to recover from these upgrade and install disasters. If I want to install some risky beta software I should be able to create a restore point first and be secure in the knowledge that if it all goes to hell, i can put it back the way it was.

jornahow

meng

January 23rd, 2007, 06:30 AM

You make a good point, even if your title is unnecessarily provocative. However, since you were running Beryl and Nvidia beta, did you not think you were asking for trouble? :D

aysiu

January 23rd, 2007, 06:35 AM

So by your definition Mac OS X isn't a mainstream OS until Leopard's new "Time Machine" feature?

You used beta software and it bit you.

By the way, I've merged this thread to the Linux Desktop Readiness thread.

jornahow

January 23rd, 2007, 06:42 AM

You make a good point, even if your title is unnecessarily provocative. However, since you were running Beryl and Nvidia beta, did you not think you were asking for trouble? :D

I guess I intended to be provocative in order to provoke discussion. As for asking for trouble The real problems i have seen on the forum with Beryl crashes come from people running xgl and not the Nvidia beta drivers. The Nvidia betas drivers have never caused me any problems. The problem so far as I have been able to discern resulted from an acknowledged issue in the latest Beryl update. But this reinforces my point. If desirable software that people are going to want to try is likely to cause problems, the OS should help you protect yourself from these misfortunes, as both windows and OSX do.

jornahow

FyreBrand

January 23rd, 2007, 08:19 AM

I guess I intended to be provocative in order to provoke discussion. As for asking for trouble The real problems i have seen on the forum with Beryl crashes come from people running xgl and not the Nvidia beta drivers. The Nvidia betas drivers have never caused me any problems. The problem so far as I have been able to discern resulted from an acknowledged issue in the latest Beryl update. But this reinforces my point. If desirable software that people are going to want to try is likely to cause problems, the OS should help you protect yourself from these misfortunes, as both windows and OSX do.

jornahowSystem restore will not protect you from a really bad install screw up. We'll see how well the new Time Machine feature works out. Maybe it will really break ground in this way.

The only way that you are protected from yourself is by yourself. If you would have taken a few key steps that an experienced user should be implementing your problem would have been trivial.
1. Always backup your data.
2. Keep a separate /data partition where you store critical files and link important config directories from your /home/user directory such as your /.mozilla/firefox.
3. Backup key config files such as your original and personally customized sources.list and your original xorg.conf file to name two important ones.
4. Use aptitude or apt-get and know how to remove (and purge) packages that are breaking things (such as beryl and the nvidia driver) so that you can reinstall them once the system is stable again.

If you would have done those things at very worst you would have to spend an hour reinstalling the operating part of the system while still leaving important data and config files relatively safe. I've tried beryl, different nvidia drivers, e17, iceWM, and several other things I wanted to experiment with. Sometimes I could just remove them after I was done exploring. Sometimes I had to do a reinstall because I couldn't figure out how to fix what I broke, but since I took the steps above it was all relatively painless and always educational.

If you want to rely on someone elses algorithm to restore your system (ie: Windows Restore) then you risk maybe having it work or maybe not. If Windows has decided that what you have done to the system is too radical, it just won't validate that restore point and you're basically screwed. Windows restore doesn't remove offending files and sometimes removes un-offending data files. You just don't know what it's going to do and it's a bad utility.

If you want a really simple alternative then do regular data backups to dvd and make a complete image of your system.

jaredm

January 26th, 2007, 12:45 PM

Firstly I would like to say that the following post is in no way meant to inflame, insult or provoke reactions from the Ubuntu community in particular and the Linux community in general. These are just my feelings in regards to my experience with Linux in general over the last few months.

I started mucking around with computers starting with VIC20's, Commodore 64's and Amigas, my first PC was a Mac Performa 580CD. I used computers for Uni and work and only in the last three years have started building my own starting with a Win Xp MCE (Media Centre), and then a desktop general purpose machine (XP/Ubuntu). I now consider computers a serious past-time with the majority of my spare time spent behind a keyboard. I am heavily into customising machines and networking. In my loungeroom I have my MCE as my entertainment system, as stated earlier a general purpose XP/Ubuntu desktop and a very old Pentium II laptop running Win98 for sitting on the lounge or bedroom and surfing the net.

My first experience with open source was with Firefox and now my machine runs many fine examples of what these communities can offer. I run Open Office, The Gimp etc. Now with Vista upon us I started to note some ugly trends from Richmond and started seriously looking into alternatives. In the past 12 months I have tried various distro's Suse, Sabayon and of course Ubuntu. I have tried to use Ubuntu as my main machine as much as possible and only XP when absolutely necessary (e.g Flight-simming). I have enjoyed Linux generally, However as a newbie this is one of the most frustrating experiences I have ever had with an OS. Why in the 21st century are we using command lines at all? I realise for uber-geeks (respectfully) this may be fine, but if Linux is interested in a serious attempt at hitting MS where it hurts ie: on the desktop of average users the community has failed, and may lose the greatest chance of gaining 'market share' and becoming a mainstream OS.

I followed literally tens of guides on getting SAMBA to work (none of which did), all of them different and no doubt from well meaning users (your willingness to help was appreciated) please please please Linux users/developers just go to a GUI for newbies and you may just find more and more people switching. The open source goals are admirable but fail in my opinion in the execution. I have now resigned myself to using MS products and open source where possible, please remember my opening statements

regards and best wishes

jared morgan

tommy1987

January 26th, 2007, 01:04 PM

Becoming mainstream might not be the best thing for linux, but it is certainly more accessible to people now than it has ever been before.

Command lines are important, and for a lot of things you dont need to use the CL unless you want to, and in my opinion they are better because they allow people to give better support because a command typed into the prompt will be the same on all installations of the same distribution.

Some people argue that it takes a long time to learn all the linux commands, but I would say that if you are interested and get satisfaction from doing so then go ahead. Anyone that has used Windows before will notice the stability improvements in Linux.

That is my take on things, I might not be correct but thats just what I think.

randiroo76073

January 26th, 2007, 01:07 PM

I would say no to your question, reasons: I'm 60 yrs young, spent most of life in construction[25yrs]. Had a stroke 5 yrs ago, no more construction. Took up putering, learned to build my own. For 5 yrs beat the hell out of 95,98,98se, 6 mos ago started with linux, currently have 14 distros installed. Was it easy, simply & succiently, no & hell no, frustrating, yes & at times intensely. Did I give up, nope, ya gota keep on truckin to get thru life, quit learnin or tryin to & your as good as dead, think outside of the box sometimes :)

Kobalt

January 26th, 2007, 01:07 PM

Hello,

There are so many threads like your I will let you search the forums and find answers on the "Linux is not ready for the desktop yet" thing...
I just want to respond this :

Why in the 21st century are we using command lines at all? I realise for uber-geeks (respectfully) this may be fine...
One, as a "basic" user of Ubuntu, you can do a lot of stuff not using the command line, at least you can admit that.
Two, the command line is a very powerfull tool that enables users to do basically anything from a simple program, it is way faster that any graphical tool hence very usefull on modest specs PCs.
Three, Unix command lines are not that hard (at least compared to the mess of windows registery...), you only need them to set up a few things at first if you don't want to use them afterwards, and they make you understand a little bit of how your system works. I like to understand what I do, maybe you don't, fine.

Oh and about your title, are you kidding ? :)

Sef

January 26th, 2007, 01:08 PM

Moving to Ubuntu Cafe.

phossal

January 26th, 2007, 01:13 PM

As you probably realize, many, many people have proceeded you in expressing such thoughts. Some of them continue on in their exploration of Linux, and some go back to Windows disappointed. I use Ubuntu daily, having been a Windows user until fairly recently. I consider myself a practical user. I didn't begin with Ubuntu because I needed a new hobby, and I'm not stuck in the rut of endless modifications and challenges.

Many people who make the switch do so for the wrong reasons, and with the wrong expectations. Many of those same people wrongly assume that the Linux community (of which I am certainly a part) care about displacing Microsoft Windows. Most of us don't. This is obvious when read, but many people don't really consider this until their frustration overwhelms them: Linux... is not Windows. That's almost all bad if you're a Windows user looking for a free Windows. It's almost all bad if you're totally unprepared and/or unwilling to learn, understand, and harness the power and potential of Linux.

You mentioned your troubles with Samba. That's a powerful, highly configurable, detailed piece of software. It works very well, if you've taken the time to understand it. Most people won't. As for the command line, it would be hard to convince you why the command line is so valuable - until you've had a need for it. It just is. GUI's are great (and available for most things), but the command line is gold!

I don't like to sell Ubuntu. My experience has been that the people who really benefit from Ubuntu, had an accurate perception of it, and had very specific ideas of how it could help them, before ever diving in. Some people really are better off in a Windows world though. Whichever you are, I hope you're able to find the support you need, and, ultimately, are able to enjoy the time you spend interacting with your computer.

Cheers!