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GuitarHero
August 29th, 2006, 07:10 PM
I don't understand this constant complaint of lack of documentation. What do you think these forums are? They're all you will ever need! But in the rare time that you cannot get your answer here, there are a ton of other alternatives. The IRC channel is my backup help center behind the forums. Then there is the wiki which is a wealth of information, and tons of member created help sites and such. Windows does not have all of that!

PenguinMan
August 29th, 2006, 08:26 PM
The average computer user doesn't want to fiddle around with downloading drivers, etc. just to get Linux to work properly on the desktop. To me, if Linux is to succeed on the desktop, it must be EASIER to use Linux than Windows. Until this reality is achieved, Linux will always be for the geeks and curious types.

My standard for ease-of-use in operating systems is Mac OS X. I use Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows XP regularly. Personally, I am way more productive in Mac OS X than in other operating systems. I only use Windows XP for gaming now, as that is about all it is really good for. I use two Linux distros regularly: PCLinuxOS and Ubuntu, mostly for business purposes. Mac OS X is used for all my programming and multimedia stuff.

I have been a Mac user since Mac OS 7.5.5, which is a long time ago in the computer world. Before that I was a long time AMIGA user until Commodore went bankrupt, and then I naturally gravitated toward the Mac platform. I do have a Windows XP computer built specifically for online gaming. Otherwise, I don't even bother using Windows anymore.

With Mac OS X Leopard and Windows Vista coming soon, we are going to see an OS war like you would not believe. The features of Leopard that Apple has made public are going to blow Vista out of the water. I can't wait to find out the stuff that is being kept under wraps until Leopard's release. Microsoft is really hurting right now, and I believe Apple is poised to gain many new users that are sick and tired of all the spyware and virus problems associated with Windows XP. Some of those users will go to the Linux platform, but I think more will end up in the Mac platform.

croak77
August 29th, 2006, 08:32 PM
The average computer user doesn't want to fiddle around with downloading drivers, etc. just to get Linux to work properly on the desktop. To me, if Linux is to succeed on the desktop, it must be EASIER to use Linux than Windows. Until this is achieved, Linux will always be for the "geeks."

FYI, my internet works out of the box in GNU/Linux with the forcedeth driver. Windows does not include any driver for it. I have to install from a 3rd party CD in order for it to work.

jdong
August 29th, 2006, 08:43 PM
The average computer user doesn't want to fiddle around with downloading drivers, etc. just to get Linux to work properly on the desktop. To me, if Linux is to succeed on the desktop, it must be EASIER to use Linux than Windows. Until this is achieved, Linux will always be for the "geeks."
That's my #1 complaint against Windows, actually..... In Linux virtually all supported drivers are bundled with the distribution. For example, I install Ubuntu on my Centrino Duo laptop and the wireless works out-of-the-box, my DVD+RW burner is ready to go, my cardreader is working, the PC card slot is ready to go. Meanwhile, I install XP, and I need to go to my laptop manufacturer's site and download 10 driver packages to do the same.


The most common cases where Linux does not bundle drivers is :

(1) The manufacturer of the driver has put enough restrictions on the license such that we cannot legally include it anymore. Examples include ATI/NVidia's 3D video drivers, which have to be shipped separately from the rest of the operating system.

(2) The drivers have just recently been developed, and haven't matured enough to be ready for mainstream. If we include them, we risk the stability of the overall operating system. When they're ready, we'll bundle them.

(3) The manufacturer has not released enough information or is otherwise preventing the open source world from writing a driver, and the manufacturer is not interested in providing a linux driver either. This is the most frustrating situation....

All 3 are really out of our control. Any distro would love to be able to get every piece of hardware working out of the box for its end users, but sadly there are circumstances out of our control preventing this ultimate goal :(

PenguinMan
August 29th, 2006, 09:12 PM
That's my #1 complaint against Windows, actually..... In Linux virtually all supported drivers are bundled with the distribution. For example, I install Ubuntu on my Centrino Duo laptop and the wireless works out-of-the-box, my DVD+RW burner is ready to go, my cardreader is working, the PC card slot is ready to go. Meanwhile, I install XP, and I need to go to my laptop manufacturer's site and download 10 driver packages to do the same.
Actually that is not entirely correct... Windows XP SP2 will automatically load drivers for almost anything. On my HP notebook, Windows XP automatically found almost all drivers for the hardware, when I did a system update after the initial installation.

By drivers, I mean mostly the multimedia codecs, wireless, etc. It is a pain in the you-know-what to get multimedia or wireless networking working properly in Linux. The main strike against Linux is that it just doesn't work with some hardware, as I have found out from my own testing.

Virogenesis
August 29th, 2006, 09:28 PM
Actually that is not entirely correct... Windows XP SP2 will automatically load drivers for almost anything. On my HP notebook, Windows XP automatically found almost all drivers for the hardware, when I did a system update after the initial installation.

By drivers, I mean mostly the multimedia codecs, wireless, etc. It is a pain in the you-know-what to get multimedia or wireless networking working properly in Linux. The main strike against Linux is that it just doesn't work with some hardware, as I have found out from my own testing.

And codecs are also a pain in the *** on windows to be perfectly honest, when was the last time you tried to play a .ogg out of the box on windows.

Also have you ever downloaded something to find that its been encoded and cannot be played without divx or xvid.

Windows ain't perfect and nor is linux ain't having a go but i'm stick of people complaining about codecs and what have you.

jdong
August 29th, 2006, 09:38 PM
Actually that is not entirely correct... Windows XP SP2 will automatically load drivers for almost anything. On my HP notebook, Windows XP automatically found almost all drivers for the hardware, when I did a system update after the initial installation.

XP does a good job of detecting my circa-2001 desktops, too, but again, my new Centrino Duo notebook, it fails miserably :). No OS is perfect when it comes to hardware support.


By drivers, I mean mostly the multimedia codecs, wireless, etc. It is a pain in the you-know-what to get multimedia or wireless networking working properly in Linux. The main strike against Linux is that it just doesn't work with some hardware, as I have found out from my own testing.

The codecs thing is a PITA, I'll agree with you on that, as is dvd playback, but both are largely thanks to the US legal system and not the fault of Linux. However, the auto-setup scripts like automatix/easyubuntu already make it as straightforward as necessary; and Ubuntu's own FAQ details how to get that setup. It takes an average computer user maybe 15 minutes of following step-by-step directions to get that set up, which is really not that bad compared to how long it takes to set up any OS after a fresh install.

PenguinMan
August 29th, 2006, 09:43 PM
And codecs are also a pain in the *** on windows to be perfectly honest, when was the last time you tried to play a .ogg out of the box on windows.

Also have you ever downloaded something to find that its been encoded and cannot be played without divx or xvid.

Windows ain't perfect and nor is linux ain't having a go but i'm stick of people complaining about codecs and what have you.
Gee... In Windows XP, Nero seems to have created my 500 Kbps OGG files quite nicely, and WinAmp seems pretty good for playing those OGG files. :-?

I don't download anything that requires divx or xvid, so I wouldn't know.

People have a right to complain about something if it doesn't work well for them. If you are sick of reading those things, then DON'T read them. Quite simple I would think...

DoctorMO
August 29th, 2006, 09:49 PM
winamp and nero arn't out of the box, and nero isn't even free!

PenguinMan
August 29th, 2006, 09:59 PM
winamp and nero arn't out of the box, and nero isn't even free!
No kidding... :-?

There is nothing wrong with buying Nero for Windows XP. It is a fantastic program IMO...

kernelpanicked
August 30th, 2006, 01:19 AM
No kidding... :-?

There is nothing wrong with buying Nero for Windows XP. It is a fantastic program IMO...



Yes it might be a good program (wouldn't know), but what makes it okay to install additional apps in Windows for additional functionality, yet somehow it's a crime against humanity to have to do the same on Linux?

slimdog360
August 30th, 2006, 05:35 AM
Why not try another distro or even flavour of Ubuntu. Xubuntu, Zenwalk, Arch, are all light distros which fly on all my computers that Ive tried them with.

tmafcerqueira
August 30th, 2006, 05:39 AM
Hi
I didn't knew were to post this...
If you ask most people you know, that do not use linux or are starting to use, the biggest problem they face is, in my opinion the program installation. Let's face it: Ubuntu was made to win some ground for linux, and it is the most user friendly distro around. The problem is that most windows users don't even know that there's a thing called command line. They have microsoft to thank for that.
I believe that, if people were offered an alternative to the command line, we could see more and more people joining the linux community. I love apt, and who doesn't? But it has a major flaw: It depends on repositories to do it's job. Repositories can only have open-source software, so if someone wants to pay, or even download a freeware program, they better be hoping for a deb package. If it's a tarball, I start ripping my hairs out. I asked this to a few of my friends(all of them windows users): What if you lost the Install Shield Wizard, and had to install all your programs from the command line? Most of them asked me what was the command line, and those who knew said it would be hard to adjust.
It is my strong belief that someone should devolop a graphical install wizard. A wizard that would write the commands on the console for the user. The first step would be to take care of the deb packages. It would install the program, and if there were dependencies, the wizard would alert to that fact. We could then move onto tarballs and RPM.
With this post I feel like I'm betraying Linux, because the console is the most important part of the OS.
Please don't think bad things of me;)
Thanks

deadgobby
August 30th, 2006, 06:12 AM
There is one Linux O/S or two that deal with that issue. Like for sample. Linspire on the 1 click intall from Linspire's CNR. However Linspre is a pay distro and it cost some cash to join the CNR. There is ways to hack into the system to let you install deb packs and so on. However Linspire is a cash cow. Yet, very simple to use. Knoppix and Mepis both offer very easy to use installing programs. All are base off Debian. Ubuntu is diong the best they can to make it a very user friendly linux O/S system out there. Suse and Linspire have like the best install graphic install. Of course with all those cool graphics take time on the install. My Opion.
Ubie is free and the Ubie team does there damn best to still make Ubie the #1 linux Distro out there. Being number did not happen over night. Done with good old fashion work and lots of feed back on volunteers.
Gobby

Jagot
August 30th, 2006, 06:14 AM
Well there's the Gdebi installer for deb's - you don't need to install those from command line any more.

http://monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing/

rattlerviper
August 30th, 2006, 06:17 AM
Freespire I guess if one has to have it easier than Ubuntu. Heck I thought Ubuntu was easy! Freespire is free and had linspires 1 click download for the subscription cost...and when people become more comfrotable they can go to the command line and add synaptic in so they can get software for free!

ubuntuuser
August 30th, 2006, 06:43 AM
First of all: one of my all-time favourite links: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

A graphical installer would indeed make life easier for all the people who are new to linux, but: Compiling programs from source wouldn't be a reason to start ripping their hair out if people would actually RTFM. This forum (right after the gentoo forum and wiki) is one of the best sources of linux knowledge I know. People shouldn't complain that it is so hart to install programs, because it isn't, it's always the same procedure. Install the build-essentials, then read the INSTALL or README files that come with the source code, install everything that is mentioned there via apt-get or synaptic. Then ./configure, make, make install (or better: checkinstall), and there it is.

After a while, you wouldn't even have to install everything because a lot of programs are based on the same dependencies (for example, I compiled mednafen just yesterday, and out of the five or so dependencies, I just had to install one, because the others were already installed previously).

I think, the reason why most people complain about compiling being so hard is because they don't understand what they're doing. They complain about not finding their eventually compiled and installed program because they don't know about how linux organizes files. After all, when you're used to cars with automatic shifting and suddenly switch to a shiny Porsche with manual shifting, nobody would complain that Porsche is user-unfriendly.

People need to understand that they are using a different OS now. Things don't work like they do in Win. If you are really interested in using Linux, invest some time and learn. You don't need to become a programmer to do that, but (if you didn't follow the above link, you should do so now) Linux is not Windows, it's a completely seperate OS. If people are to afraid or to lazy to learn but want to get away from Win anyway, get a Mac.

Basically, everything I want to add is already written at the site mentioned above, so please take some time to read and think about it.

Honestly, I don't see a graphical installer coming anytime soon, because it isn't necessary.

aysiu
August 30th, 2006, 07:06 AM
I love apt, and who doesn't? But it has a major flaw: It depends on repositories to do it's job. Repositories can only have open-source software What are the commercial and multiverse repositories, then?

Maybe you should try Freespire:
http://forum.freespire.org/showthread.php?t=1527

I'm quite excited about Linspire making CNR free, but you know what? That won't make huge masses of Windows users migrate to Linux. You're still believing the Linux desktop myth.
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

IYY
August 30th, 2006, 07:35 AM
If a user wants to get a commercial Linux game, or a program like Google Earth, it would always come with an installer of sorts.

Open Source programs are nearly always in the repositories.

The things that don't fall into the two groups are for the more advanced users.

Senshi
August 30th, 2006, 07:50 AM
Does it ever occur to people that there are those out there that don't want an OS that does everything for them? There are people who like using the command like, rather than having a point and click GUI.

I think that people have to understand that there are some Linux distros that are not really meant to be like Windows, and some are.

agrabah
August 30th, 2006, 08:04 AM
In kubuntu theres is adept that is graphical; an add/remove programs menu that is more easy to use still.

I heard of a graphical program managing compilation of programs, "kompile", but haven't tried it yet. Though I will soon.

But IMHO the command line is not the first problem the average (or better yet, tecnically-not-adept) user of widnws stumbles into - the whole layout of the system & desktop is different. Not that much, but confusing enough that people with less knowledge of computers don't know where to look for, e.g. settings for volume.

It's not really that today's graphicall distributions of linux are difficult; no. But many people just can't come to grips with it in the first hour or so, and then just leave it at that. I know more than two people who don't want to commit a month of two just to have a working, usable computer.

Tine

moma
August 30th, 2006, 08:35 AM
Autopackage distro neutral installer:

Should we encourage the use of Autopackage in Ubuntu?
http://www.autopackage.org

Notice: I think that programs need to be prepared and compiled with Autopackage headers (*.h) first.

aysiu
August 30th, 2006, 08:37 AM
I've never had to compile an application.

Everything I need I've found in the repositories or in an easy-to-install binary. I don't game. I don't do professional graphic design. I maintain my website, FTP, surf the web, check email, create documents, manipulate and organize pictures, listen to music, burn CDs, rip CDs, and back up my files.

The repositories suit me just fine--and the best part is that I don't have to reinstall every single program I've already installed in order to get them updated. Every six months, they all get updated automatically.

Corvillus
August 30th, 2006, 08:40 AM
Should we encourage the use of Autopackage in Ubuntu?
http://www.autopackage.org

For Ubuntu itself? Probably not, since apt is a better system and easier to use (via Synaptic). You just have one central place to go and you can get anything available that's officially supported (and even some not officially supported) by the distribution. For third party applications that need to target multiple distributions easily without having to provide different package formats? Definitely.

anaconda
August 30th, 2006, 09:13 AM
then there is always the "klik" -system, which cam be made to work with ubuntu.. actually I am not sure if it already works with 6.06 out of the box?

http://klik.atekon.de/

It installs applications with one click, and packkages the aplications so that they come in 1 file!! So that uninstall is also easy just delete the 1 file...

Donnut
August 30th, 2006, 09:37 AM
K3B is exactly like Nero for linux, works every time! I've burned isos, music cds, dvds, data cds, xvcds, etc...

PryGuy
August 30th, 2006, 09:44 AM
Why not try another distro or even flavour of Ubutnu. Xubuntu, Zenwalk, Arch, are all light distros which fly on all my computers that Ive tried them with.Everyone's free to try it but I'm sure that Ubuntu is the easiest, fastest and most compatble Linux ever!

Kindred
August 30th, 2006, 10:46 AM
fastest

:mrgreen:

sagarhshah
August 30th, 2006, 01:11 PM
I use both ubuntu and windows.

Not everything came configured ot of the box in either of them.

In windows I had to install a driver for my wireless card, graphics card and sound card and also some video and audio codecs and internet plugins.

In Ubuntu Linux I had to install a driver for my dialup modem, graphcs card and also some audio and video codecs and internet plugins.

I didnt have much problems configuring either of them and infact it took me shorter time to configure my ubuntu installation then it did my windows installation!!!

Its all about expectations. If you go to use linux expecting to find somethng similar to windows then your experience won't be as enjoyable. If you go without any expectations and you can be pleasantly surprised like I was :D.

theres my twopence worth!!

1oki
August 30th, 2006, 05:35 PM
It almost sounds like the guy who originaly posted this thread has some kind of hardware problem... Ubuntu slow? I dont think so... :rolleyes:

PryGuy
August 30th, 2006, 05:37 PM
In fact Ubuntu is faster than Windows for me. The guy should ckeck his hardware.

aysiu
August 30th, 2006, 05:38 PM
It almost sounds like the guy who originaly posted this thread has some kind of hardware problem... Ubuntu slow? I dont think so... :rolleyes:
It seems to vary. I've seen a lot of posts saying Ubuntu is extremely slow on people's computers. I've also seen a lot of posts saying it's extremely fast. I've found it to be normal (not fast or slow) on my computer.

Experiences vary.

prizrak
August 30th, 2006, 06:27 PM
I have been a Mac user since Mac OS 7.5.5, which is a long time ago in the computer world. Before that I was a long time AMIGA user until Commodore went bankrupt, and then I naturally gravitated toward the Mac platform. I do have a Windows XP computer built specifically for online gaming. Otherwise, I don't even bother using Windows anymore.
EXACTLY. You have used Macs for a very long time, you are used to them and how they work. That is why you are more productive in a Mac environment than anything else you've used. I for one can't stand the Mac OS interface and that one button mouse gets on my nerves. It took me about 10 seconds to figure out that tap-click is not on, on MacBook Pro at an Apple store (friend wants one). I didn't find the interface intuitive or even enjoyable but that's because I've used Windows for the past 9 years and Linux for the past 2 I'm used to them.


Actually that is not entirely correct... Windows XP SP2 will automatically load drivers for almost anything. On my HP notebook, Windows XP automatically found almost all drivers for the hardware, when I did a system update after the initial installation.
Not even on my desktop it did that. We are talking an AXP 2100+ with the rest of the hardware being about the same age. Had to install chipset drivers along with sound and stuff. Dapper flew right into it.

By drivers, I mean mostly the multimedia codecs, wireless, etc. It is a pain in the you-know-what to get multimedia or wireless networking working properly in Linux. The main strike against Linux is that it just doesn't work with some hardware, as I have found out from my own testing.
Windows is unusable w/o Klite Codec pack if you do anything more than listen to mp3's with it. Hell can't even play DVD's with WMP out of the box. In fact codecs are a nightmare on Windows, I have had more than one occasion when it would fail playing something despite the correct codec being installed. I had XP MCE for a while and it would just not play some movies/videos from the MCE itself. With the MCE interface off WMP had no problem playing it. Codecs are a nightmare on ANY OS, you have to constantly update them because they are not forward compatible and in many cases not backward compatible either.

Reality is that Linux will not be a suitable choice for an average user until an OEM installs and configures it for you in much the same way they do with Windows. My OEM Acer install had most of the required codecs, DVD player, all the drivers, cd burning software and so on.

Here is a challenge for you if you care to take it. Take a person who doesn't know much about computers. Install Ubuntu on a computer, configure it 100% with everything they would need. Give it to the person to use. After about a month post the results. None of my friends have any more trouble using my Ubuntu laptop than they would using my WinXP machines.

bruce89
August 30th, 2006, 06:57 PM
Windows is unusable w/o Klite Codec pack if you do anything more than listen to mp3's with it. Hell can't even play DVD's with WMP out of the box. In fact codecs are a nightmare on Windows, I have had more than one occasion when it would fail playing something despite the correct codec being installed. I had XP MCE for a while and it would just not play some movies/videos from the MCE itself. With the MCE interface off WMP had no problem playing it. Codecs are a nightmare on ANY OS, you have to constantly update them because they are not forward compatible and in many cases not backward compatible either.

I never really noticed that, but yes, even getting codecs in Windows has to be done. For instance:

Vorbis
Theora
DVD's
XviD
X264
AAC etc.

hoagie
August 30th, 2006, 07:17 PM
No sound in Java. I could live with this if it was off all the time or on all the time. It comes and goes for long periods of time. Numerous posts in these forums have gone unanswered about it. I see other people posting the problem also. I need sound on the Internet.

No way to play sound from multiple sources at the same time. When the sound in Java is working (ha) it would be nice to listen to a little music in the back round. Scratch that. Even when the sound in Java isn't working all the other apps still think it is and won't produce sound.

I need a way to rip a DVD with up to date ripping technology. The new Sony protection keeeps me going back to DVDFab Decrypter on my Windows machine all the time. K9copy is not bad until you deal with the newest Sony ****, but it is not the answer. Running DVDFab in Wine sucks. Crash Crash Crash.

And while i'm on the subject of k9copy, Why is my system still using an older version? I installed through Synaptic. If the idea of installing through Synaptic was to make things easier and keep things updated it FAILS. Stop giving me new screen savers, and update my freakin software.

I know Ubuntu is free. I know the people that release it invest a whole bunch of time and money. But until I can the Basics with out a ******* **** load of time and effort from me, I'll have to give my money to $$$$$soft. And that is why Linux , Open Source, Ubuntu, Red Hat or what ever you want to call it will fail. The casual user is the biggest chunk of the market, and we want **** to work without ******* with it every night. If my truck made me look under the hood evry morning I would slam it into a tree and get a new one with the insurance money.

My rant is over ................
Be gone my friend good luck with vista and gates. But stop saying that ubuntu and linux will fail. Back in the late 80's none could possibly imagine that microsoft could get the monopoly that ibm had, but microsoft did, now it's time for linux to take the lead!

I've tried the vista's beta, and I found that it's the same junk as xp with a better interface.

DoctorMO
August 30th, 2006, 07:23 PM
I hate the USA for it's patent laws and I don't even live there.

Ubuntu should ship MP3 support (since the code is open source anyway) and not allow it to be installed on machines where software patents have been allowed. difficult to do but at least then the EU wouldn't suffer the USA law.

jdong
August 30th, 2006, 07:47 PM
If Ubuntu ships with MP3 support or DVD playback support, etc, the CD would no longer be legal to obtain/own in the US.... that really sucks :(

bigstick
August 30th, 2006, 08:05 PM
](*,) ](*,) Hi Im new to all this but can relate to your frustration,
i cant even get it to install, I have a Pentium 4 3.0ghz ,1ghz mem,
400ghz hd and it tells me the drive is confused it will not mount the root files.
I have browsed all the forums but nothing on install problems,have you found anything on this problemm on your travels through the forums.
PS any help would be gratefully recieved.

Brunellus
August 30th, 2006, 08:08 PM
](*,) ](*,) Hi Im new to all this but can relate to your frustration,
i cant even get it to install, I have a Pentium 4 3.0ghz ,1ghz mem,
400ghz hd and it tells me the drive is confused it will not mount the root files.
I have browsed all the forums but nothing on install problems,have you found anything on this problemm on your travels through the forums.
PS any help would be gratefully recieved.
I understand your frustration, but I ask that you please post a new thread, in an appropriate sub-forum, with as much detail as you can record. That will help us solve YOUR problem.

Hijacking threads--even "screw you guys I'm going home to windows" threads--is not cool.

DoctorMO
August 30th, 2006, 10:03 PM
Perhaps an EU distro then?

mips
August 30th, 2006, 10:25 PM
Perhaps an EU distro then?

Thats an option. Why should the rest of the world always conform to the USA. Software patents are just wrong imho.

aysiu
August 30th, 2006, 10:27 PM
Thats an option. Why should the rest of the world always conform to the USA. Software patents are just wrong imho.
Ubuntu wants to have one distro that's compliants with laws worldwide. The US ends up setting the bar, as it is often the most restrictive.

You have to work based on the lowest common denominator... unless there's going to be US Ubuntu and non-US Ubuntu.

DoctorMO
August 30th, 2006, 10:39 PM
It would have to be outside the USA, Canada and Austrialia since their govenments bent over backwards to shaft their own IT industries.

No Whammies
August 30th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Just wanted to chime in with the easy experience side. Really, the whole setup was quick and easy, and I've only had a handful of issues, all of which were solved within a day when I asked how to fix 'problem X' or 'problem y'. The community is what makes this OS great to me. With Windows I was; 1)either told to NOT customize, tweak and adjust. 2)Download suspicious looking or illegal as Hell software
3)Made to feel stupid for not being a '1337 pirate'

Between the OS itself and the forum community, I can heartily recommend Ubuntu toanyone who needs a good all-around OS for their desktop.

mips
August 30th, 2006, 10:54 PM
It would have to be outside the USA, Canada and Austrialia since their govenments bent over backwards to shaft their own IT industries.

It's time the rest of the world ignores the USA and do their own thing. Linux adoption is bigger outside the USA anyway.

I sometimes feel the USA should have their own planet and leave the rest of us alone but that is not really practical....

DoctorMO
August 30th, 2006, 11:22 PM
Perhaps Bug #2?

bruce89
August 30th, 2006, 11:31 PM
It's time the rest of the world ignores the USA and do their own thing. Linux adoption is bigger outside the USA anyway.

I sometimes feel the USA should have their own planet and leave the rest of us alone but that is not really practical....

Indeed.

It's not difficult to install multimedia support anyway.

DoctorMO
August 30th, 2006, 11:36 PM
bruce89, it would be better if it wasn't a concern at all.

You would still need to install the wmv, real player, flash codecs because of copyright and such. but DVD, mp3 would be ok.

Do you know how anoying it was in 2001 to have to download a gif libary because of the LWZ patent? thankfully that patent is now out of date and Linux can ship gif support (yes, gif that de facto image standard on the internet)

bruce89
August 30th, 2006, 11:38 PM
Do you know how anoying it was in 2001 to have to download a gif libary because of the LWZ patent? thankfully that patent is now out of date and Linux can ship gif support (yes, gif that de facto image standard on the internet)

I didn't realise that, although GIF is not a standard, such as *.DOC is not a standard. PNG is the W3C standard for lossless graphics on the Web.

ice60
August 31st, 2006, 02:42 AM
windows probably is easier to setup, i'm not totally sure. but, once Ubuntu is setup it's easier to maintain. and i think that's the catch people like this fall into - thinking windows is easier when it's not.

unless you never run anything on windows you can't be sure you have a clean system, that's unless you protect the kernel and to do that you need to be fairly advanced to know which hooks to allow, whether to let something install drivers, just in general what access you should give to each program.

i've never been a windows basher, but the fact is Linux is better :mrgreen:

PenguinMan
August 31st, 2006, 02:57 AM
Yes it might be a good program (wouldn't know), but what makes it okay to install additional apps in Windows for additional functionality, yet somehow it's a crime against humanity to have to do the same on Linux?
K3B is great for Linux and Nero is great for Windows XP. :)

aysiu
August 31st, 2006, 03:01 AM
windows probably is easier to setup, i'm not totally sure. I've never seen evidence of that.

ice60
August 31st, 2006, 03:24 AM
I've never seen evidence of that.
you are right, if the hardware is supported then i personally find Ubuntu far easier, and alot faster to setup.

but, i was thinking of pre-installed Windows computers Vs installing Ubuntu from an iso. and the average person will have alittle windows know-how and no Linux experience what-so-ever. in that case windows would be a little easier to get on the internet, which i think is what most people will be happy with. that is more likely the norm.

then 'Mr Average' will go on the internet using IE with activex enabled, and get infested with malware. then, to clean the system you need to be an expert, or to be certain of being clean you need to do a reinstall, which is harder then installing Ubuntu. :rolleyes:

so, in that case windows is easier because getting on the internat is what it's all about. :rolleyes: lol

aysiu
August 31st, 2006, 03:44 AM
If you're compared preinstalled to install-yourself, preinstalled will always win, of course!

majesticturkey
August 31st, 2006, 04:00 AM
If a vendor supplied a preinstalled Ubuntu with equipment designed and known to work with it, then it would be just as "easy to use" as Windows is perceived to be. Every single problem I've had has been because of some piece of hardware which isn't 100% compatible with Linux, but is with Windows - because my computer was designed with Windows in mind. I don't consider myself a poweruser either, I consider myself an average user with an open mind and the ability to google, and willing to learn.

So I think we need to keep in mind:

1) If you're not open-minded, you won't adjust to Linux. People who are not willing to learn will get nothing out of Linux, and don't get much out of Windows either. They use the internet, email, and maybe Microsoft Word. Let them stay with Windows.

2) If you preinstall Linux, and build the computer with it in mind, it will be so much smoother than otherwise. That's unfortunate, since most Windows users don't know how to burn an ISO. That's the hardest part of installing Ubuntu, IMO. Of course, they could Google it, but if most people Googled things when they had questions, then tech support personnel wouldn't all be completely insane.

3) People see Windows as "industry standard." My family is all very open-minded about FOSS, and have seen what I do (since my work involves using computers, and I choose to use Linux). However, people like my mom think that they need Windows to run their software, even though they don't. All their software has either a Linux version or an equivalent.

4) People think Windows is simpler because it's just handed to them and done for them. Installing Windows is Hell. Said mother will be doing it for three computers in her media center Friday, and I'm hired by her boss to setup the network. I'll have a copy of Edubuntu on hand, because I'm 60% sure they'll be deciding to give up when the activation codes, extra software, not to mention actually getting anything to work after a fresh install all pose problems.

5) People don't know what Linux is. They think of servers, or they think of geeks. They don't think it's something for them.

PS: Getting on the internet was easier for me under Ubuntu than Windows. Ubuntu automatically configured my network and connected me. Windows involved a long session of searching through the control panel.

mrgnash
August 31st, 2006, 04:00 AM
Acer Travelmate 4402 here, and 6.06 worked for me without a hitch... 5.10 was a bit more problematic, but nothing that I wasn't able to overcome fairly easily... at least on the 32bit version.

snakyjake
August 31st, 2006, 04:03 AM
I TOTALLY agree that application installation should be a lot easier. Well, Synaptic and other package managers are easy enough, but only if the application is in the repository.

Right now I want to install the newest most current version of Amarok, but it isn't in the repositories yet (I also tried a few other suggestion, but to no success).

While it is entertaining to have different flavors of package managers and repositories, I would much prefer more standardization to make things easier and consistant. Perhaps it would make it easier for the software vendors too, since they can compile it with a "standard" Linux version.

Right now, I will have to wait (and who knows how long), until the most current version Amarok is built for my distribution. It frustrates me.

Jake

prizrak
August 31st, 2006, 04:59 AM
I hate the USA for it's patent laws and I don't even live there.

Ubuntu should ship MP3 support (since the code is open source anyway) and not allow it to be installed on machines where software patents have been allowed. difficult to do but at least then the EU wouldn't suffer the USA law.

It would never happen even if it were legal. The fact is that Ubuntu is 100% FREE software out of the box. Free here means Libre not Gratis. mp3 and DVD are proprietary not free so they will not be included into Ubuntu. Flash is completely free to install and run but it doesnt' come with Ubuntu. Same for nVidia drivers that are free for anyone to grab but are not included with Ubuntu. If you want something like what you are talking about, get MEPIS it is based on Ubuntu but has all the goodies you want.

aysiu
August 31st, 2006, 05:10 AM
Free here means Libre not Gratis. To clarify a bit--it's both Libre and Gratis.

3rdalbum
August 31st, 2006, 05:18 AM
Personally, I believe there should be standard names for packages across distros. If this is done, then it would be incredibly easy to alter the ./configure scripts to tell the user the exact name of the thing that needs to be installed. When this happens, it would be a cakewalk to write a simple frontend that does the ./configure, make and make install/checkinstall steps, finding out which packages need to be installed and installing them from repositories.

There's a big error in the original post. Closed-source programs are in the repositories too - the Commercial repository. And if you get a closed-source program from the web, it's going to be distributed with some kind of binary installer that you can double-click anyway.

The LAST thing I want to suggest is that only precompiled programs be available; Linux runs on so many different platforms that source code is necessary.

telegramsam
August 31st, 2006, 05:27 AM
I'm finding it kinda fun to hunt down these programs and fight with them to install them.

I have a LOAD of programs on my month old Ubuntu install. Guess how much I've paid for them? $00000000.00.

Nobody asks me what my name is, where I live, or my zip code, and my mailbox has received--guess how much spam.... NONE, ZERO.

If I want to load 15 programs at once, synaptic handles it while I go to the bathroom or do the dishes.

Find me an M$ forum that has the quality of help from people who DONATE their time to help a guy out--and don't give up until the problem is solved...

User friendly? I think it's pretty dang friendly as it is.

msak007
August 31st, 2006, 05:34 AM
Right now I want to install the newest most current version of Amarok, but it isn't in the repositories yet (I also tried a few other suggestion, but to no success)...Right now, I will have to wait (and who knows how long), until the most current version Amarok is built for my distribution. It frustrates me.
Not to get off topic, and I know that your whole point isn't the one app, but a lot of times knowing where to check for this info is half the battle. If you're not sure, always check the app's home page or SourceForge site, or even google it. One of those sites will always have the newest version compiled for the more popular distros, or at least the source for compiling the latest version. There is a build of the newest version of Amarok available for (K)(X)Ubuntu, just click here (http://amarok.kde.org/wiki/Download) for the download page. I know you said you tried a lot of different things and I'm not sure if this is one of them, but I'm happily running 1.4.2 using the repo on that page.

caravela
August 31st, 2006, 06:30 AM
I'm finding it kinda fun to hunt down these programs and fight with them to install them.

I have a LOAD of programs on my month old Ubuntu install. Guess how much I've paid for them? $00000000.00.

Nobody asks me what my name is, where I live, or my zip code, and my mailbox has received--guess how much spam.... NONE, ZERO.

If I want to load 15 programs at once, synaptic handles it while I go to the bathroom or do the dishes.

Find me an M$ forum that has the quality of help from people who DONATE their time to help a guy out--and don't give up until the problem is solved...

User friendly? I think it's pretty dang friendly as it is.

I think the problem is rather when you need a program that doesn't exist in the repositories, so how do you install it?
well you pray that the author/company has a deb and that you have all the decencies on the repositories!

on the M$ side they don't need to have a forum, because when you install something, program or drivers the support comes from the program/driver maker. The problem is rather find the program than rather install it (even my dog could install a program in windows).

Now about "user-friendly"
People nowadays the less that they expect is to click something and that something installs the program that they want, making all the shortcuts in the menu or in the desktop.

Dependencies HELL
The problem is that Linux is very flexible and M$ the opposite.
You don't need to worry if M$ user has this API or that DLL if their system works then it has to have it.
On the other side i can a fully functional Linux with Xorg gnome or Kde and don't have half of the crap needed to install/play Amarok for example, now if it is a program that isn't on the repositories well good luck.

Time is money
While someone RTFM checks the dependencies and edits the config files, I already installed the program and did my job and send it to my boss in the other OS.

In resume
If someone just needs the computer to go to the internet read email or do some work in openoffice it is just fine and it is recommended. The user that today needs something and tomorrow another it is better off

bodhi.zazen
August 31st, 2006, 07:10 AM
If you ask most people you know, that do not use linux or are starting to use, the biggest problem they face is, in my opinion the program installation
If you look at the Ubuntu forums the biggest problems for newbies seems to be partitioning, installing, GRUB, Internet connectivity, wireless, finding a Linux equivalent for their windows program(s), and mounting drives/partitions.


Let's face it: Ubuntu was made to win some ground for linux, and it is the most user friendly distro around.
I am not so sure I agree with either of those statements, depends on what you mean by "user friendly" and what a user needs to do. Perhaps you mean newbie friendly? Even there there are other distros that are newbie friendly and it is thus a matter of preference (by the newbie).


The problem is that most windows users don't even know that there's a thing called command line. They have microsoft to thank for that.
I agree. The problem is also Linux is not windows and you need time to learn a new OS. Linux has a steep learning curve. Windows has no learning curve, rather an amnesia curve. The more you use Windows the less you know about how your Os works.


I believe that, if people were offered an alternative to the command line, we could see more and more people joining the linux community.
And what, return to the mindlessness of windows? This is a contradiction of your last statement.


Repositories can only have open-source software, so if someone wants to pay, or even download a freeware program, they better be hoping for a deb package.
Not sure what you are getting at. Repositories can have proprietary software. In this event they would be maintained not by Ubuntu, but by whomever owns the software. For example look at Linspire. There is nothing about apt that prevents say nVidia from maintaining an Ubuntu repository for their drivers. One would NOT "hope for a deb package" if running gentoo, slackware, or a RPM based OS.


If it's a tarball, I start ripping my hairs out.
I agree that ./configure make makeinstall can be a hit-or-miss proposition. Tarballs are not always platform independent. This is often a problem of:
1. Lack of knowledge (by you attempting to compile).
2. Lack of reading README.
3. Poor packaging by software developers.
4. Lack of a standardized, uniform system of file structure across various versions of Linux.

For the most part, you do not need to compile software to run a Functional Linux Box.


It is my strong belief that someone should devolop a graphical install wizard
Have you looked at Synaptic? Yumex? Kpackage?

DoctorMO
August 31st, 2006, 01:32 PM
Just to clear things up, the mp3 codec and the dvd decryption libs are GPL. there is nothing wrong with them! only a patent in the usa keeps them from ubuntu distrobution. unlike flash (copyright) and wmv (copyright)

Some open source developer wrote those libs and he can't give them to anyone in the USA. that sir is what is wrong with software patents.

I said GIF was a de facto standard not a de jur standard. understand?

If someone wrote a GPL version of the plash player and the windows media codecs they would only be able to distrobute those GPL codecs inside the software patent zone.

prizrak
August 31st, 2006, 01:54 PM
There is a GPL version of flash, it's not very good. There are also GPL versions of codecs Gstreamer reverse engineered a few of them but that's also not perfect.

mp3 algorithm isn't licensed under the GPL (also the company that owns it is Canadian not US) same with CSS. DeCSS is a way to circumvent the algorithm but that is illegal in both the US and the EU.

Miguel
August 31st, 2006, 02:07 PM
Prizrak,

The mp3 patent is owned by Fraunhofer IIS, which is german. Have a look here (http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/amm/). On the DVD side, I am not a lawyer but libdvdcss is legal in Europe as long as a DMCA-like law doesn't exist. And yes, I know something similar might exist in France and that there has been a strong debate on software patents.

Brunellus
August 31st, 2006, 03:04 PM
Prizrak,

The mp3 patent is owned by Fraunhofer IIS, which is german. Have a look here (http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/amm/). On the DVD side, I am not a lawyer but libdvdcss is legal in Europe as long as a DMCA-like law doesn't exist. And yes, I know something similar might exist in France and that there has been a strong debate on software patents.
the nationality of the patent assignee (owner) is irrelevant. The relevant point is that the patent (U.S. Patent 5,579,430) is itself valid in the United States, and governs activities in the United States.

prizrak
August 31st, 2006, 03:05 PM
Miguel,
It is a Fraunhofer algorithm but it is owned by Thomson Corporation a Canada based company. A German company could not file a patent with the US Patent Office as it would be 100% non-enforceable.

Someone on this forums has mentioned a DMCA like law in the EU that makes circumventing protection illegal, the name escapes me at the moment but I do believe that person was from the UK so definetly not a French law.

Brunellus
August 31st, 2006, 03:10 PM
Miguel,
It is a Fraunhofer algorithm but it is owned by Thomson Corporation a Canada based company. A German company could not file a patent with the US Patent Office as it would be 100% non-enforceable.

Someone on this forums has mentioned a DMCA like law in the EU that makes circumventing protection illegal, the name escapes me at the moment but I do believe that person was from the UK so definetly not a French law.
Not correct. Foreign firms and inventors file for U.S. patent protection EVERY DAY.

DoctorMO
August 31st, 2006, 03:22 PM
There is an EU version of the DCMA, but like all things in Europe it's being contntested in a number of countries, delayed in others. ok so perhaps DeCSS was a bad choice. mp3 codecs are still available though.

Miguel
August 31st, 2006, 03:24 PM
Someone on this forums has mentioned a DMCA like law in the EU that makes circumventing protection illegal, the name escapes me at the moment but I do believe that person was from the UK so definetly not a French law.

The name of the DMCA-like european law is EUCD. You have more info, as always, on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU_Copyright_Directive). The french equivalent, which is AFIK pretty recent, is DADVSI. All these laws have their origin in the WIPO copyright treaty.

Oh, god. I hate lobbys, I love freedom.

tmafcerqueira
August 31st, 2006, 03:26 PM
I'm not complaining lol. I like linux, and I'm going to install gentoo. The point is that lot's of people use windows, and they shouldn't.

Miguel
August 31st, 2006, 03:28 PM
Just one more thing: DeCSS and libdvdcss are different things. DeCSS uses or takes profit of a css key a group got from reverse-engineering a legal DVD software player. I would guess libdvdcss is able to fully de-encrypt a DVD without a key, given that CSS is a pretty weak cryptography method (40 bits, but behaves like a 17 bit method).

prizrak
August 31st, 2006, 03:30 PM
There is an EU version of the DCMA, but like all things in Europe it's being contntested in a number of countries, delayed in others. ok so perhaps DeCSS was a bad choice. mp3 codecs are still available though.

Again the algorithm is patented not GPL'ed so it cannot be included in Ubuntu (or Debian even). It doesn't matter if it would be legal in the EU, although US patents are enforced and enforceable in the EU due to WTO and other similar organizations/agreements. Phillips has to pay for the right to use MP3 just like Sony and Motorola do.

clee
August 31st, 2006, 03:41 PM
Well I am only 15 and have just started to use linux, I have learnt how to do most things in about 2-3 days, with help of the manual i have managed to teach my self how to use it.
plus i started to use the lamp server edition to start and people say that is hard to use but its not, ok somthings i still get stuck on but then all you need to do is come to this forum to get help.

I love linux its much better that windows because it dosent use so much space and it doesent have so many prosesses running all the time, and it never crashes on me.

Miguel
August 31st, 2006, 03:47 PM
Again the algorithm is patented not GPL'ed so it cannot be included in Ubuntu (or Debian even). It doesn't matter if it would be legal in the EU, although US patents are enforced and enforceable in the EU due to WTO and other similar organizations/agreements. Phillips has to pay for the right to use MP3 just like Sony and Motorola do.

This sounds like a software patent. Can you really patent an algorithm? Isn't it equivalent to patenting maths? Can I patent the schrödinger equation? Or a superfast matrix diagonalization algorithm?

prizrak
August 31st, 2006, 04:02 PM
This sounds like a software patent. Can you really patent an algorithm? Isn't it equivalent to patenting maths? Can I patent the schrödinger equation? Or a superfast matrix diagonalization algorithm?

I was thinking about that, technically an algorithm is mathematical and shouldn't be patentable but somehow it is. Perhaps it's because no one really tried to go to court over this.

Here is more info on libdvdcss from our very own Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libdvdcss
:)

justin whitaker
August 31st, 2006, 04:16 PM
If you ask most people you know, that do not use linux or are starting to use, the biggest problem they face is, in my opinion the program installation.

Actually, there is a hurdle before that: what are all these progams in the first place? Someone coming over from Windows has a heck of a time navigating through the maze of available applications....something like CNR (Linspire/Freespire) or Xandro s Network is a step in the right direction to help with that.

As far as installing programs....Ubuntu makes it pretty easy: synaptic, gdebi, apt, aptitude (if you install it) are all available to make installing programs easy.


Let's face it: Ubuntu was made to win some ground for linux, and it is the most user friendly distro around. The problem is that most windows users don't even know that there's a thing called command line. They have microsoft to thank for that.

One must embrace the command line. It won't bite...well, unless you sudo rm -f something, then all bets are off. ;)


I believe that, if people were offered an alternative to the command line, we could see more and more people joining the linux community. I love apt, and who doesn't? But it has a major flaw: It depends on repositories to do it's job. Repositories can only have open-source software, so if someone wants to pay, or even download a freeware program, they better be hoping for a deb package.

You do not need to get into the command line on Ubuntu unless you really want to. Many commercial applications are available for Debian/Ubuntu, and if not, .sh or .run files are usually available.


If it's a tarball, I start ripping my hairs out. I asked this to a few of my friends(all of them windows users): What if you lost the Install Shield Wizard, and had to install all your programs from the command line? Most of them asked me what was the command line, and those who knew said it would be hard to adjust.

Tarballs are fairly easy to deal with. First you need to have build-essential on your computer, then unpack the file, read the readme, follow the directions, et voila, a compiled program!

Be thankful you are not a Slackware user. :-P


It is my strong belief that someone should devolop a graphical install wizard. A wizard that would write the commands on the console for the user.

They exist: gdebi does this, as does synaptic.


The first step would be to take care of the deb packages. It would install the program, and if there were dependencies, the wizard would alert to that fact. We could then move onto tarballs and RPM.

Gdebi alerts that a dep has not been met, but you are right, it doesn't go out and fetch it.

Off the top of my head, there are several projects which are trying to deal with software installs: portage (Gentoo), upkg (Paldo), .pbi (PC-BSD), Klik, Zero Install, etc...each has their own take on the problem, and the optimal solution would be to combine several of the ideas.

That said, apt works well, and with synaptic, it even becomes user friendly.

DoctorMO
August 31st, 2006, 04:37 PM
prizrak, software patents are non enforcable in the EU as can be seen by the UK case that was thrown out recently.

The Patent law makes it VERY clear 'software is not patentable', so either WPO is hoping that no one will notice or the EU is going to ignore WPO.

Either way if they took me to court being in the UK it would be thrown out under the UKs patent laws.

So no it's not restricted at all, it's all in your mind.

imaiden22
August 31st, 2006, 05:07 PM
honestly, I mean it's great that you're thinking about how to get more users to conver to linux, but I mean even though compiling from source is a daunting task at first, let me tell you from experience that after you compile your first bit of software, the satisfaction is unbelievable. Then you're opened up to a whole new world of customizing programs and setting your own defaults, and makings programs work the way you want to. Just to keep in mind, something I learned from compiling from source:

-tar xzvf takes care of the extraction and tarball
-then you worry about dependencies, and make sure you get them all, although you rarely will on the first try.
-next, it's the three step rule... ./configure, (sudo) make, and (sudo) make install, then you look to see how you've done.

the key is not to let up, just keep at it and i bet that if you stare at that code for long enough, you'll see what you're missing and just do an aptitude search for it and install the neccessary package then you're set!

and, I learned this the hard way, if all else fails, go through with the steps and reboot and see what happens. I know this from experience, 4 hours of code staring and all i needed was a reboot...go figure


But trust me, don't be intidmidated by the terminal, start with your cd's and you ls' and make your way up to the advanced techniques, it'll make you a better linux user, that's for sure!

snakyjake
August 31st, 2006, 05:27 PM
I think imaiden22 has the perfect example of why Linux can be unfriendly.

I see Linux dividing into a few camps, and one of them are the users who like DIY (Do It Yourself) projects. Other camps are the "free as beer", system administrators, etc.

I'm personally in between all of them. I like learning and challenges, but I also like to be productive with my time for other projects. This is why I cannot leave Windows. Let's face it, there are reasons why Windows and Apple are more popular. Microsoft and Apple spend millions of dollars of research to find different ways and best of breed techniques to increase personal and business productivity.

Linux struggles between the DIY, and the users who want usability. Hence the debate between open source and proprietary software and distributions with a fee. Perhaps this ideological struggle is Linux's achilles heel, and which slows it down from becoming mainstream.

It can be said that Microsoft and Apple have set the bar on usability...

Linux is simply trying to catch up.

Jake

ice60
August 31st, 2006, 06:39 PM
here's The Linux Link Tech Show episode all about patents if anyone's interested?

patent attorney Brad Bowling is our guest tonight
http://www.tllts.org/dl.php?episode=129

grimmson
August 31st, 2006, 08:57 PM
The bad thing is we lost our new friend. He's not even speaking to us anymore and we have forgoten all about him. By by new friend. Hope to see you next dist-upgrade.

prizrak
September 1st, 2006, 12:21 AM
You know what? I'm tired of all this crap!!! I'm going back to DOS that thing never crashed!

bodhi.zazen
September 1st, 2006, 01:45 AM
I think imaiden22 has the perfect example of why Linux can be unfriendly.

I see Linux dividing into a few camps, and one of them are the users who like DIY (Do It Yourself) projects. Other camps are the "free as beer", system administrators, etc.

I'm personally in between all of them. I like learning and challenges, but I also like to be productive with my time for other projects. This is why I cannot leave Windows. Let's face it, there are reasons why Windows and Apple are more popular. Microsoft and Apple spend millions of dollars of research to find different ways and best of breed techniques to increase personal and business productivity.

Linux struggles between the DIY, and the users who want usability. Hence the debate between open source and proprietary software and distributions with a fee. Perhaps this ideological struggle is Linux's achilles heel, and which slows it down from becoming mainstream.

It can be said that Microsoft and Apple have set the bar on usability...

Linux is simply trying to catch up.

Jake

It all depends on what you want. I find the CLI in Linux very friendly. Color, tab completion, pipes, shell scripts, .bashrc, grep, cat, etc. also I like the use of a middle mouse click in Linux to cut-and-paste very easy to use, much easier then Ctrl-c; Ctrl-v.

I guess you would call me one of those DIY's and I find Windows unfriendly in this arena.

Windows is easy to use "as is" and it sounds as if you are more familiar with it. Do not confuse familiarity with ease of use.

Windows has significant downsides. Much harder to configure, not "multi-user", not secure, virii, etc. These downsides make it much harder to use. I just restored a windows box that had an evil program downloaded onto it that hijacked the box and would not unlock it unless a ransom was paid. Do you think I did data recovery with Windows or Linux? Do you tink Windows is up to this type of task? Not without a lot of extra, non-free programs. Try to run a server in Windows XP.

I agree, if you want a GUI without much user input Windows is easier. Under the hood, however, Windows is not so easy.

Paul133
September 1st, 2006, 02:27 AM
Senshi and aysiu I agree. I like Linux because of the commandline. It's based on Unix after all and has traditionally been for advanced users who want more control over their desktop. Now, however, Linux means 2 things: an free and Free open source OS alternative to MS for everybody and an advanced Unix-like OS that lets users control everything about their desktop instead of being barraged with crappy wizards that just make it more annoying for those who know what they're doing. It's a constant balancing act.

toasted
September 1st, 2006, 02:42 AM
Define user friendly.
Once that is done then we can work toward that goal.
Maybe we need a mini tux to pop out and do the install and all the configurations for the human user because they don't want to do it.

Maybe we need Tux to break a bunch of stuff so the user can fix it because they love to tinker with things.

What is user friendly?
pop top cd case?
cup holder?
What?

This is different for every single user out there, none of us are identical. Factor into that equation the fact of legalities, human error, programming quirks, etc and its a wonder that we can ever turn a computer in the first place!!

Linux user friendly? Ask a user.

aysiu
September 1st, 2006, 03:45 AM
For the curious, I've written on this subject a few times:
Random Musings on Intuitiveness, Ease of Use, and User-friendliness (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=181677)
Why I think the command-line is user-friendly... (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=59334)
The Perception that Windows is Easier to Use than Ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=212847)

alecjw
September 1st, 2006, 11:37 AM
I hope you enjoy using windows vista, why don't you drop us a line some time and tell us what you think of it after its final release?

Brunellus
September 1st, 2006, 02:03 PM
You know what? I'm tired of all this crap!!! I'm going back to DOS that thing never crashed!
O for a return to a simpler time (http://web.archive.org/web/20050331063535/http://www.command.com/)

TeeAhr1
September 1st, 2006, 05:30 PM
I need a way to rip a DVD with up to date ripping technology. The new Sony protection keeeps me going back to DVDFab Decrypter on my Windows machine all the time. K9copy is not bad until you deal with the newest Sony ****, but it is not the answer. Running DVDFab in Wine sucks. Crash Crash Crash.
I'm terribly sorry that your operating system will not help you commit a crime.

deanlinkous
September 2nd, 2006, 03:58 AM
another key term is simply familiarity
Something you have used is familar, something you have not is not familar and will be seen as harder or confusing when in actuality it is just different and unfamilar.
Something you have seen others use, something others tell you how to use - familar. Not better. Not more usable. Not even necessarily user friendly. Just familiar. :)

(thought I would jump in and run up my post count)

msak007
September 2nd, 2006, 04:14 AM
That's a great point deanlinkous, and it's funny you say that - I've used Windows through all its incarnations, from 3.1 to XP, until several months ago when I switched to Kubuntu. I now find myself using the Windows CMD prompt more often at work, and I always catch myself typing "ls" in the prompt after only several months of use :). Linux (to me) is just so much more intuitive and easier to use / navigate than Windows now. It was unfamiliar at first, but by no means non-user friendly or hard. It's just looking at things from a different perspective and getting used to a different way of doing things. Some people either don't have the time (not their fault) and / or the desire / will to learn (their fault), so they immediately cast off Linux as being "too hard" without actually putting some effort into reconditioning their brain to not think Windows.

ofer_w
September 2nd, 2006, 04:20 AM
ubuntu has now very bad inernet connection wizard

users must use sudo pppoeconf in order to config the internet

and this is not easy for most users

the internet connection part should be very easy

easy to connect to the internet and easy to connect the computer to other computers (xp/ubunut/suse...)

elpuerco
September 2nd, 2006, 04:35 AM
OK, I am not prompting to be flamed, just stating how I see it..

I realise Linux is execellent in that it is free and is created by the community, but over the years all the way back to 1998 no matter what distro I try it is always an uphill struggle to get it to work.

I'm not dunce, I am a programmer and am familiar with UNIX/Linux terms but still get stuck.

The nearest I ever got to a full working distro was SUSE 8.0 but even that had many problems. Ubuntu I found by chance and was attracted by the web site guff beefing it up and the live cd which worked 'out of the box'.

Alas the install from desktop does not work and I am hoping the community here can help as I like what I see in Ubuntu.

However, a complete know nothing can install Windows without any problems with easy help all the way, so why can't Linux?

As the years go on it still remains the same with no real helpful messages or guidance.

I have since 1992 installed all versions of Windows on numerous PC formats and ALL have worked without problem. Yes the odd driver update required but the system always installed with everything in place for a user to make good use of it.

Not once have I managed to install a real usable Linux distro on various types of PC using different distros.

I give up and return a few years later only to see same ole same ole.

I think it is a shame as I realise there is an enormous ammount of work that goes into it and I read about how great it is. But until I see it installed and fully working how can I truely say how great it is?

All I want is a working Linux install nothing flash just for home use. If Windows can do it why can't Linux?

:( :( :(

Again, just for the record I am not complaining just telling it how it is. And I can see I am not the only one :(

meng
September 2nd, 2006, 05:12 AM
I understand where you're coming from and you probably realize that nothing in your post hasn't been said before by others. However, I have found Ubuntu to be much easier to install than other distributions, and also much easier to install than Windows. So the experience of individual users in this regard is variable. You've clearly been consistently unlucky with Linux, but your story is not representative of all Linux dabblers.

BTW if you truly want an out of the box Linux install with restricted formats included from the get-go, consider PCLinuxOS. I'm not sure if the hardware detection is as good as Ubuntu's (I doubt it), but it may be good enough for your machine and that's all that really matters. Also although it ships with Sun's JRE, you probably have to install JDK manually.

GuitarHero
September 2nd, 2006, 05:16 AM
You are placing the blame in the wrong place. The reason linux does not work perfectly the first time everytime(windows doesnt either) is because most hardware manufacturers do not make drivers for linux, leaving the community to make their own. The ubuntu install is easier and faster than installing windows xp. If you explain your problems with more detail in the corresponding forums here then I'm sure they can be fixed. There are tons of how tos and already posted and fixed problems on these forums. Search and most likely you'll find what you need.

majesticturkey
September 2nd, 2006, 05:18 AM
What you say has been said a million times before. I think the problem is that you claim you aren't a dunce, but your experience is almost entirely in Windows, I'm guessing...not Linux. It is so much easier to just forget everything you know about computers and work from the ground up, learning Linux, because the operating systems are so different.

Also, Windows is not as easy to install as you say. I've seen people install Windows with many problems, and I myself had the pleasure of trying to set up a dual boot WinXP on a Mac (yeah, I dunno why my friend wanted to).

If you really are serious about giving Linux a shot, you can always ask questions and people will get you running. The newer versions of SLED work really well, and from what I've heard, Gentoo is not bad either. MEPIS and Linspire also cater towards Windows-converts.

K.Mandla
September 2nd, 2006, 05:23 AM
All I want is a working Linux install nothing flash just for home use. If Windows can do it why can't Linux?
I can understand. It's very frustrating when things don't "just work," even though that was the promise.

To be fair, try some other distros. It's always possible that someone else has done it better or easier than Ubuntu has.

3rdalbum
September 2nd, 2006, 06:49 AM
I honestly don't know what to say in reply to the original post. I've installed Ubuntu thrice (admittedly, I flubbed it the first time, but that was because I'd assumed I was an expert), I've dist-upgraded once, and got everything working perfectly without any hassles. Beginner's luck?

I've never tried installing Windows, but from what I hear it's no easier than Ubuntu (I've only used the alternative CD too, not the desktop CD install). I'm no big technical person either. I'd only used the Classic Mac OS, and the most complicated thing I've done is write a couple of simple Python programs. I can't even wrap my head around Java, and making DVDs in Nero occasionally gives me pain.

If you want to see it installed and fully-working on your own computer, find the website for your nearest LUG (Linux User Group) and see when their next "installfest" is going to be on. They'll install SUSE or Ubuntu or whichever on your computer and you'll be able to ask them questions or advice.

Otherwise, you might want to try the alternative CD installer for Ubuntu, rather than the Desktop install. Use the default installation mode, not the "expert" install.

user1397
September 2nd, 2006, 07:00 AM
I have installed breezy once, dapper RC once, dapper final twice, and have even dist-upgraded once. on all of these occasions, EVERYTHING WENT SMOOTHLY! im not saying that everything after the install was nice and pretty, but the actual install was so fast and easy to do.

i have installed windows twice, and didn't have problems with it (except for all the pre-installed programs they put on your comp when u buy it, i just removed them all)

so as you can see, it is just about your hardware, and a spot of luck.

deanlinkous
September 2nd, 2006, 10:05 AM
That's a great point deanlinkous, and it's funny you say that
Thank you....you so sweeeet! Yea, I always do the ls as well as the ifconfig and sometimes catch myself doing other commands and sometimes it even takes me a second to smack myself up side the head once I realize what I am doing. :biggrin:

Sef
September 2nd, 2006, 10:08 AM
Linspire on the 1 click intall from Linspire's CNR. However Linspre is a pay distro and it cost some cash to join the CNR.

CNR is free now.

toasted
September 2nd, 2006, 01:56 PM
Looks like you can even use it with Freespire... cool
Thats the way it SHOULD be!

mips
September 2nd, 2006, 04:51 PM
Alas the install from desktop does not work and I am hoping the community here can help as I like what I see in Ubuntu.


The Desktop CD needs some work. Not everybody has the same success with it. It did not work for me.

Could I suggest you try the Alternate CD, should go much better.

coffeecat
September 2nd, 2006, 09:37 PM
My experience installing Ubuntu Hoary, Breezy and Dapper (and versions of Kubuntu and Xubuntu); Fedora 1, 3, 4, 5; SuSE 9.1, 9.3, 10.0, 10.1; CentOS; Mepis 3.4, 6; Mandriva; Gentoo; Foresight Linux; Xandros; and some others I can't now recall, has been almost always as easy as falling off a log. (Well - perhaps not with Gentoo. :)) Only occasional hiccups, but nothing serious. I've installed on 3 completely different desktop machines and two different laptops and in all I've got working Linux systems running sweetly. This is so different from the OP's experience that I cannot explain it.

Unless, that is, it's because I'm not a programmer. :wink:

Edit Oh, and before July of last year I'd never seen a Linux GUI desktop, let alone a Linux terminal.

Monsuco
September 2nd, 2006, 11:19 PM
I realise Linux is execellent in that it is free and is created by the community, but over the years all the way back to 1998 no matter what distro I try it is always an uphill struggle to get it to work.Try using an OEM box. You can find a few with Linux preinstalled (usually it is either Suse, Red Hat, or Linspire that is preinstalled though, and not Ubuntu). Linux OEM box's are much more "out of the box ready" than Windows or even Mac. Consider this, does Windows or Mac come with an Office Suite, and advanced image editor, support for all major IM protocols, a good CD burner with ISO support, one click updates, and no obnoxious shareware to remove? Winows usually requires that a firewall be configured, several updates for the OS, drivers, and several programs to be separatly downloaded, antivirus and antispyware stuff must be loaded, ect. If you have an OEM box with linux preinstalled for you (especially with Linspire) DVD, MP3, windows media, real media, quicktime, mpeg, Java, Flash and all other important codecs and plugins will be preinstalled.


I'm not dunce, I am a programmer and am familiar with UNIX/Linux terms but still get stuck.

The funny thing about Linux is the more of a Windows poweruser you are, the harder the transition. I have heard of programmers being confused and yet at the same time, I have heard of people installing and setting up Linux PCs for their grandmother and her not having trouble. It is best to ignore everything you know about Windows when transitioning to linux, as the two are very different in usage.


However, a complete know nothing can install Windows without any problems with easy help all the way, so why can't Linux?
I have installed Windows (98, ME, and XP) several times before. I have also installed Ubuntu, Mepis, Freespire, Suse, PC-BSD (not linux I know), Xandros, ReactOS (also not linux) and a few other distro's before, and I for one found each of them to be easier to set up and use than Windows. When ever I installed windows, I would have to either use about 12 driver floppies (for 98 and ME) or find a driver CD (for XP). On XP I have to activate, sometimes if you change things too much on a reinstall, you have to ask MS to let you use software you own. Then you have to reboot about 4 times (more if you have XP SP1, and much more if you have only XP no SP). On Ubuntu, I use Automatix and Synaptic to install all the stuff I will want, then I select my printer driver and graphics card and I am ready (unless I want to set up Wine, but Winetools makes that relitivly painless). On Windows, I have to go download Real, VLC, Quicktime, the Ogg codecs, the Real Ogg codects, Adobe Reader, Java, Shockwave, Notepad2, Hijack This, Firefox, and depending upon if I am stupid enough to listen to the sales dude or not, I will either pay $$$ for Photoshop, AV software, and Office, or use AVG Free, Keiro or Zone Alarm, Ad-Aware, Spybot, GIMP, Open Office, and I lastly will need to install a good CD burner app and of course, an IM program like Gaim and Skype, oh and of course, during this process, I may need to reboot... 12 times or so. Then I defrag my hard drive and use msconfig to tweek the startup settlings to keep pointless things from slowing stuff down and to rid my tray of garbage.



As the years go on it still remains the same with no real helpful messages or guidance.
Unless you want to multiboot, I don't know of much in the Ubuntu installer that requires guideance, you hit next a few times, enter your region, name, and password, then it goes and you reboot with a functional system.


I have since 1992 installed all versions of Windows on numerous PC formats and ALL have worked without problem. Yes the odd driver update required but the system always installed with everything in place for a user to make good use of it.
So is lack an Office Suite, Java, an advanced image editor, a decent IM program, and a lack of decent security still make you thing that you have "everything in place for a user to make good use of it".


I give up and return a few years later only to see same ole same ole.
I bought a 4 year old Linux guide at Borders, I cannot believe how much things apperantly are not the "same ole same ole" in the linux world. Gnome and KDE look much better, installation seems sane, and you have support for everything people want.


I think it is a shame as I realise there is an enormous ammount of work that goes into it and I read about how great it is. But until I see it installed and fully working how can I truely say how great it is?You local school or library probably has a linux user group. Maybe they can show you how to set linux up or ask around the forums.


All I want is a working Linux install nothing flash just for home use. If Windows can do it why can't Linux?
What isn't working? Usually the only hardware issues linux has is with winmodems, picky WiFi cards, or the GPU wont be used. If Ubuntu doesn't work for you, give Suse, Mepis, Freespire, Xandros Open Circulation, Fedora, or Mandrivia a run (or if you want to you can try PC-BSD, but keep in mind that PC-BSD is like most other BSD projects, there are some areas it is very very strong at and some areas were it is very very weak, BSD tends to try to specialize itself at particular task) and one will surely work.


Again, just for the record I am not complaining just telling it how it is. And I can see I am not the only one :(
True, but remember, No distro, OS, or anything really just works right out of the box no questions asked. Each has issues from time to time.

I am not trying to be upsetting, I am just asking to give Linux more of a run.

SoundMachine
September 2nd, 2006, 11:41 PM
However, a complete know nothing can install Windows without any problems with easy help all the way

Complete and utter bs.

elpuerco
September 2nd, 2006, 11:55 PM
Right!

At last I have it working on Kubuntu and now realsie the reason why it would not work.

If the desktop installer warned me that I cannot install on ntfs and report the problem rather than just dumping me back at desktop it would have saved me hours of pain.

However read the thread that details it all at.

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=249535

I am over the moon happy now as I can now start to play with Linux at last=D>

PS SoundMachine.....I appreciate you indepth perspective! :rolleyes:

aysiu
September 3rd, 2006, 01:12 AM
Complete and utter bs.
I'm in complete agreement with this.

meng
September 3rd, 2006, 01:29 AM
As pleased as I am that elpuerco was ultimately successful, the revelation that pre-partitioning the drive, expecting Ubuntu to install on an ntfs partition, proves that this was nothing like the typical computer-unsavvy Linux installation experience. Furthermore, it is easy to install Ubuntu (and many other distros) as a dual-boot, try doing that with Windows.

elpuerco
September 3rd, 2006, 01:45 AM
meng, fair comment but....

I cannot remember seeing anything in the wizard install from the live cd that said 'this is an ntfs partition and cannot be used'

If there is then I was blind and did not see it!

The manual step by step allowed me to id the problem and thus solve it, the wizard just gave up and gave me no feedback.

And to be honest....the 1.6 GB #1 was wiped and recreated by the ubuntu wizard. The 8.4 GB was created after resizing the main windows dive to give me some space for linux.

All I saw was I need a swap space and at least 2GB for /, nothing about not ntfs.

Anyway we could go round and round with this so I will close it now.

I have a working Kubuntu OS and am happy to throw myself into the linux world and have fun, which is all I wanted right from the beginning

aysiu
September 3rd, 2006, 01:47 AM
Is there something in the Windows installer that says, "This is an Ext3 partition and cannot be used"?

meng
September 3rd, 2006, 01:51 AM
It's a fair point that the installer in future could have improved error handling. And it's a fair point that Linux in general can improve in many ways. But it's not fair to say that it's inferior to Windows on the installer, at least not on the evidence provided.

mayamaniac
September 3rd, 2006, 11:33 AM
I'm terribly sorry that your operating system will not help you commit a crime.
Yes it does. I see a DVD rip software that came with it. Maybe it came with automatix, I'm not sure. But since automatix is allowed on this forum, then it can't be a criminal act. ;)

But I'm not fully supporting the original poster either. You should know that there are a few areas where Windows just plain rule and dominate. One of the them is Games and the DVD ripping is another. Wine and Cegeda are not up to par with games running in its native Windows mode. For DVD ripping, there's a plethora of free apps and utils for Windows. So if you gaming and dvd ripping is important to you, then stick with Windows or use windows for that.

The Java and Flash thing, this is beyond control of linux community. I'm surprised it works well as it does or that it works in the first place, nevermind keep up with the updates or features. I mean Java on windows is buggy also.

So yes, linux is far from becoming a desktop OS for the average Joe that wants gaming and dvd ripping to be easy. but if all he need is surfing, emailing, watch a movie, and listen to music, then ubuntu can provide all that without too much technicality.

I love Ubuntu. I know its limitations, so what I can't do in ubuntu, I do it in WinXP.

brim4brim
September 3rd, 2006, 02:33 PM
I think we should all just be honest and admit that Java sucks. There are problems with it's runtime for everything. The windows one is slow and apparently the linux one doesn't work properly with sound (never used it for this).

What exactly does the platform independant language run well on?

Mathiasdm
September 3rd, 2006, 02:51 PM
I think we should all just be honest and admit that Java sucks. There are problems with it's runtime for everything. The windows one is slow and apparently the linux one doesn't work properly with sound (never used it for this).

What exactly does the platform independant language run well on?
The Windows one is not slow (it's slower than C, true, but that doesn't mean it's slow), it just loads slow at the first try.

That's a big difference.

dark_myself
September 4th, 2006, 11:52 AM
You are placing the blame in the wrong place. The reason linux does not work perfectly the first time everytime(windows doesnt either) is because most hardware manufacturers do not make drivers for linux, leaving the community to make their own. The ubuntu install is easier and faster than installing windows xp. If you explain your problems with more detail in the corresponding forums here then I'm sure they can be fixed. There are tons of how tos and already posted and fixed problems on these forums. Search and most likely you'll find what you need.

You see the original post was complaining that things don't work right away. And it's true. To get Linux working you have to tweak many things. In Windows they simply work. You shouldn't blame just hardware manufacturers for the lack of drivers but also the open-source community. I was shocked to see that some dvelopers are considering binary drivers (like ATI's and NVIDIA's) illegal just because thay connect to the kernel which is open-source. I think the open source community should help hardware manufacturers to develop viable Linux drivers and not demand for GPL drivers (being given their market share they are in no position to do so).

DoctorMO
September 4th, 2006, 12:06 PM
elpuerco are you willing to put the error you want into the installer to help others who believe ntfs is some how a universal format (got help us all if it was)?

Because we need these ideas to materialise in the installer and I'm sure it wouldn't take that long to add.

elpuerco
September 4th, 2006, 03:08 PM
Hi DoctorMo I don't understand what you mean?

Are you asking me to edit/amend the installer?

I am a programmer but know jack about altering linux code???

Please to help if I can thoough:)

DoctorMO
September 4th, 2006, 03:12 PM
Oh don't worry it's not as if you'll be editing some horribly complex kernel driver.

It's just going to be a C app writen for gtk, it might even be python. all you have to do is find the part of the app that lists partitions and create a warning label that shows up when ever you click on a partition that linux can not be installed on such as FAT16, FAT32, NTFS, HFS and HFS+.

A really good way to show your entering the spirit of Linux.

jimmygoon
September 4th, 2006, 03:15 PM
To be honest, the more you know or think you know about windows, the harder a time you will have breaking the habits and getting to use and love linux... but each has his/her preference as well...

elpuerco
September 4th, 2006, 03:48 PM
Well I'm game!

I would be more than happy to as long as I know where to look and what to do :D

Just so you know my background is...

Self taught Basic '89
Self taught C, C++, Assembler '90 - '95
Self taught VB5, 6, VBA, VB.NET '96? onward
Transact-SQL 2004 onward

Usually only the most recent workings remain focused in mind, older stuff I need to try to relearn!

Example: Assembler......wouldn't have a clue now!

DoctorMO
September 4th, 2006, 05:04 PM
Ah I'm a Visual Basic level 10 warlock :-P Nothing I couldn't do in that hidious language. Perl, C, Python, Assembler-80486 and a bit of java.

you can find all ubuntu centric application on launchpad: https://launchpad.net/

the install app is: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-express

but the partitioner might be a different app, your mission is to find the source code, compile and run to produce the effect desired.

Good luck.

jackkerouac
September 4th, 2006, 08:28 PM
I'm terribly sorry that your operating system will not help you commit a crime.

Except that if you don't live in the United States under its ridiculously repressive DMCA (or whatever it's called), it ISN'T a crime. Making a Fair Use copy is perfectly legal in many countries.

magicmike
September 5th, 2006, 04:13 AM
Just a quick note that Solid Edge itself recently announced a Linux version of NX4 here
http://www.ugs.com/about_us/press/press.shtml?id=4624

In the field of high end graphics I find that products like Softimage XSI (3d modeling) and D2 NUKE (Compositor) although "fun" are definitely not "kids toys". and doubt that the Hollywood effects houses would trust software that can range from $20,000 - $500,000 to a simple "toy".

This guy will need more time to see a shift in the industry. Though he's right where he needs to be at the moment. The tools and the work flow for CAD is in windows right now. And until the competition shows it can be done faster and better in Linux he'll still be in windows.

aysiu
September 5th, 2006, 04:14 AM
magicmike, right now you're link is pointing to http://www.w3.org/Protocols/ instead of http://www.ugs.com/about_us/press/press.shtml?id=4624

atrus123
September 5th, 2006, 05:20 AM
i mentioned newtek's lightwave 3d as a piece of software that runs admirably on linux (under wine), and he scoffed at that.

Maybe this has already been said, but a better 3d package would be Maya. Weta Digital did their 3d special effects with Maya running on Red Hat, and it isn't alone. There are lots of special effects firms that run Maya on Linux.

In a way, Linux (thanks to Weta) has won at least 3 Academy Awards.

Some toy.

majesticturkey
September 5th, 2006, 07:14 AM
Hah, this toy helped me to research a possible better solution to the sepsis problem in hospitals. I'd like to see a G.I. Joe save a life.

frup
September 5th, 2006, 07:39 AM
Hes right about CAD... all i have found is QCAD and that is really crap...

I work for a reasonably large architecture firm, who today was plagued on their windows servers with viruses... yet the AutoCAD software they need costs $10000 or so per license and theres nothing free to compare... i've managed to convince about to co-workers to switch to linux but CAD is always going to mean they need windows...

prizrak
September 5th, 2006, 02:41 PM
Computer Aided Design. They mean things like AutoCAD to design buidling infrastructure, cars etc.

Both this and the GIS (Geographical Information Systems) are areas where Linux is lacking sorely, mainly because there are little alternatives to the commercial programs available.

Yet I would still recommend fitting your general IT infrastructure with Linux and keep several windows boxes to run thes specialized programs. Like this is often done the other way arround.

GRASS is very good for GIS as good as ESRI's ArcGIS at the very least. At least from my experience I never did get too heavily into it.

It's simple enough to run XP in Parallels or some other VM environment for CAD/CAM/GIS anyway.

Still that guy was talking about an application that goes on top of the OS not the OS itself. The thing that bugs me is the fact that he completely dismisses a whole OS as a toy because it can't run CAD package. Seems like he doesn't see a computer as a universal tool but just a CAD station.

Brunellus
September 5th, 2006, 04:16 PM
GRASS is very good for GIS as good as ESRI's ArcGIS at the very least. At least from my experience I never did get too heavily into it.

It's simple enough to run XP in Parallels or some other VM environment for CAD/CAM/GIS anyway.

Still that guy was talking about an application that goes on top of the OS not the OS itself. The thing that bugs me is the fact that he completely dismisses a whole OS as a toy because it can't run CAD package. Seems like he doesn't see a computer as a universal tool but just a CAD station.
yet more proof that the desktop is not ready for Linux.

Blondie
September 5th, 2006, 04:37 PM
Indeed. It's a highly specialized market and you cannot judge an entire OS on this one area.

Yeah, it's like saying that Windows XP is a toy because >60% of supercomputers run Linux (http://www.forbes.com/home/enterprisetech/2005/03/15/cz_dl_0315linux.html) How many supercomputers run Windows XP? :-D

I guess those supercomputers must just be expensive toys. :-k

prizrak
September 5th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Yeah, it's like saying that Windows XP is a toy because >60% of supercomputers run Linux (http://www.forbes.com/home/enterprisetech/2005/03/15/cz_dl_0315linux.html) How many supercomputers run Windows XP? :-D

I guess those supercomputers must just be expensive toys. :-k

Well let's face it, anything with a "Super" prefix is a toy by definition :)

bluenova
September 5th, 2006, 04:44 PM
Funny he should mention quickbooks, as that is really not much more than a 'toy'. A real accounting suite is SAGE, and they have versions for both MS Windows and Linux.

:EDIT: to quote what SAGE have to say about Linux:


Linux helps businesses customise their core business infrastructures and is ideal for companies seeking an enterprise level system with a low total cost of ownership (TCO). Highly reliable, modifiable, and affordable, Linux runs on a wide range of platforms.

user1397
September 5th, 2006, 10:20 PM
check out what this guy said in the amazon.com forums page for the upcoming vista ultimate (original link (http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Windows-Vista-Ultimate-DVD-Rom/dp/B000HCTYTE/sr=8-1/qid=1157490810/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-2203087-4796742?ie=UTF8&s=software)) :


Aug 31, 2006 8:37 AM PDT


Everyone here who is bashing Windows and talking about how great OSX is and how great and free Linux is, are sadly mistaken. I believe one here said trust him, he is a pro ...yeah right clearly you aren't. First off the only reason that OSX doesn't have vulnerabilities is because there aren't people going out of their way to find it, after all who really cares if you find an exploit and manage to screw up a couple thousand people when if you try that on windows and manage to find an exploit you would be affecting several millions. Linux ah yes the answer to everything ....only not I am sorry but when I have to make my own drivers to get a wireless card to work on my laptop that's not good or practical and when it comes to work I need something that works. Windows XP is a great OS and it works great, how people manage to get that OS to crash and lockup and cause all the problems I have been reading is a mystery to me, but then again there are tons people who aren't fit to operate a computer in the first place. You want to talk about spyware too as a problem that only plagues windows? Yeah right so I suppose they made the spyware removal programs for OSX and Linux for nothing then right? But I am sure you heard of those programs since you are such a pro, and for the record updates and patches are part of creating software as you will find there are plenty for OSX and Linux as well, now that I think about it aren't patches and updates what go Linux to where it is today? Lastly as far as a corporate environment goes Windows works great, exchange and small business server are perfect and don't ever have any problems and are a snap to work with, Linux is not free by the way since in the end of the day general users usually have questions and then when you need support there is none really or the companies that offer support a la Red Hat charge a really nice fee for it so then you are back to paying.

Mark B. Machado if he only knew about ubuntu...

meng
September 5th, 2006, 10:29 PM
If that guy "knew" about Ubuntu he'd still be a jerk. Some folks can't be educated, and we shouldn't even bother trying.

jason.b.c
September 5th, 2006, 10:38 PM
Yeah right so I suppose they made the spyware removal programs for OSX and Linux for nothing then right?

Umm..?, Since when is there spyware removal programs for linux..? Do they exist..?? And where the heck do you get them..?

aysiu
September 5th, 2006, 10:42 PM
What I don't get is--why do people feel the need to convince others out of using Linux?

Clearly most people who use Linux at one point or another also used Windows. The same cannot be said about most Windows users (that they, at one time or another, gave Linux a fair shot).

So Linux users must have a reason to keep using Linux. Windows users, on the other hand, do not always have a reason to keep using Windows. Sometimes they do, but most of the time it's just the fear of the unknown.

terminatingzero
September 5th, 2006, 10:50 PM
If only he knew how it would come back to bite him; it's too bad he's obviously not more educated on Microsft DRM and Trusted Computing or I think he would be singing a different tune. Maybe he just enjoys paying for abuse though.;)

bastiegast
September 5th, 2006, 10:53 PM
What I don't get is--why do people feel the need to convince others out of using Linux?

Clearly most people who use Linux at one point or another also used Windows. The same cannot be said about most Windows users (that they, at one time or another, gave Linux a fair shot).

So Linux users must have a reason to keep using Linux. Windows users, on the other hand, do not always have a reason to keep using Windows. Sometimes they do, but most of the time it's just the fear of the unknown.

I totally agree, although this Windows bashing makes me tired sometimes.


Linux is not free by the way since in the end of the day general users usually have questions and then when you need support there is none really or the companies that offer support a la Red Hat charge a really nice fee for it so then you are back to paying.


[-(

This parts bums me the most.

darrenm
September 5th, 2006, 11:00 PM
This is the kind of thing that you read and you don't even know where to start. It's really sad that some people are so threatened by this mysterious thing called Linux they know nothing about that they have to use Windows-style problems to port over to Linux that really, have nothing to do with the way Linux works and just highlights their ignorance that they don't know the differences anyway. People like this obviously tried Linux, couldn't get something to work, didn't know how to fix it then fealt threatened that even though their mums tell them they are computer whizzes they couldn't figure something out therefore its a poor operating system and the Microsoft TCO argument suddenly makes perfect sense.
Or it could be that they are realising the MCSE they paid out so much for is absolutely worthless because it only shows you don't actually know anything about computers in general and are ill-prepared for anything else.

oo thats better, rant over.

aysiu
September 5th, 2006, 11:02 PM
I'm pretty optimistic about this sort of thing, actually. I was
Mark B. Machado in October of 2004. I seriously was.

Then I gave Linux another shot in April 2005, and I've been a convert ever since. I wasn't won over by people arguing with me online. I was won over by just giving it a real shot and also seeing how much the software and documentation had improved in half a year.

B0rsuk
September 5th, 2006, 11:03 PM
If that guy "knew" about Ubuntu he'd still be a jerk. Some folks can't be educated, and we shouldn't even bother trying.

Quoted for posterity

user1397
September 5th, 2006, 11:18 PM
I'm pretty optimistic about this sort of thing, actually. I was
Mark B. Machado in October of 2004. I seriously was.

Then I gave Linux another shot in April 2005, and I've been a convert ever since. I wasn't won over by people arguing with me online. I was won over by just giving it a real shot and also seeing how much the software and documentation had improved in half a year.then I think we should save Mark B. Machado's poor soul and hold his hand when he tries ubuntu! Now, how can we reach him...:-k

darrenm
September 6th, 2006, 12:04 AM
Grrrrr I really wish I hadnt clicked that Amazon link now because I am seething at the idiotic posts that some people are doing.

The famous old quote : "There are only more security issues for Windows because Linux is not widely used. If it was the other way round Linux would have more security problems. There isnt something that magically stops malware on Linux machines"

YES THERE IS!! Its called proper user rights management. Its the original multi-user Unix environment - everyone is a user, 1 user is root. Anything a user runs can only run with user privileges therefore cannot touch the system. If the market share was reversed then yes, people would not devote as much time and effort into making windows malware but there certainly wouldnt be as many threats using the Unix/Linux security model as there currently is with Windows. Windows is still a single-user OS, even though you can have multiple users, everyone is root, everyone has the power to take the system down by running a .exe, .scr, .bat, .anything file.
If I try and copy something into /etc/init.d then Ubuntu tells me to sod off, same as if a binary file I run tried to run tried to copy a file there, the same thing would happen.
These people really wind me up.

meng
September 6th, 2006, 12:10 AM
darrenm, the only solution is to ignore the FUD. If "Mark" knew that you were getting worked up, he'd be happy that he'd achieved his goal. It's only natural to feel disgusted; at the very least, don't give them the satisfaction. Cheers.

maniacmusician
September 6th, 2006, 12:11 AM
its true that a lot of windows users really are blind to linux, and even afraid of it.

but on the bright side, there's a large number of people who're not. I have a friend that's reformatting his hard drive (XP spyware slowed his computer down too much) and i told him i was using linux at some point, and he decided he wanted to try it. we're still keeping windows around because we plan to build a music studio with that computer (its a bit tedious with linux at the moment),but he's installing xubuntu as his primary OS. i was surprised at how quickly he decided he wanted to use it; i didnt even push it on him. just goes to show, i guess.

meng
September 6th, 2006, 12:24 AM
One of the reasons I'm reluctant to recommend Linux to others is because at the first hint of trouble, many will run back to Windows, only now they're armed with a personal experience and will tell all of their friends how horrible Linux is. End result - more harm than good, as far as the reputation of Linux is concerned. I'd only recommend it to those who are willing to tinker, and if I'm prepared to spend some time helping out.

curtis
September 6th, 2006, 12:57 AM
I would of replied to it, however I cannot post if I have not purchased an item off Amazon.

No point in writing something to find out no one is going to read it though, so here is my post:



Well, it is easier to develop for GNU/Linux compared to Windows. First off with Windows do you have access to 100% of the APIs? Nope, you do not and the ones you do have access to are no where near complete.

Also, I doubt your cd/dvd drive not working if it is 0-6 years old, as now all drives follow the same standard. The Radeon will also work fine, as ATI published an open source driver relating to the r200-r400.

If you want to be certain that your hardware works with GNU/Linux though all you have to do is buy from manufacturers that care. You would be surprised how many devices are supported by GNU/Linux.

But if you do not like GNU/Linux, feel free to not use it. Simple.

Seems the forum's formatting messed it up though, it looks fine how I entered it.

elpuerco
September 6th, 2006, 11:27 AM
LOL, I think I have a way to go before I dabble there DoctorMo:)

I will need to spend time getting to grips with Kunbuntu first..

SoundMachine
September 6th, 2006, 11:57 AM
PS SoundMachine.....I appreciate you indepth perspective! :rolleyes:

You made a blanket statement that a complete know nothing could install Windows and I'm telling you it is BS, that is about as much of an indepth perspective i can give you on that blanket statement.

Go to www.google.com and search for need help installing windows and you'll get 106.000.000 hits.

The truth is of course that when someone is trying to figure out why the heck the computer won't boot from the cd then both are impossible to install, when the user wonders what a driver disk IS then Windows may be impossible to install and so on.

Blanket statements are rarely correct and the best analysis of them is usually "that is complete and utter BS".

Tomosaur
September 6th, 2006, 01:39 PM
Two days ago I had to (re)install Windows XP on two brand new, machines. Not only did the existing installations not work at all (neither booted correctly), but the CD provided to reinstall windows would only work from within windows. I had to get online, download a neat little tool to rip the boot stuff from the provided CD, make a boot cd, insert it, load it, swap to the installation CD, reformat as NTFS (which took the best part of an hour), and install windows. Both windows installations now work, but it seems both computers are now having motherboard problems, and are not detecting user input, although power is being routed to the peripherals. You can't even access the BIOS setup, so I got the people I was doing it for to ring their supplier and sort it.

The business is also paying through the nose for accounting software (Cubis2005), and by all accounts it's pretty good, but they really don't have that kind of money to throw around considering the problems it does have (random logouts, miscalculations etc). I promised I'd look around for a free/cheaper alternative, so I've been looking at SQL-Ledger and trying to build a customised template for them to use. They'd only have to pay for support and documentation then, and the price is much lower than the multi-thousands of pounds they're currently paying.

Redcard
September 6th, 2006, 06:00 PM
I can perfectly rip DVDs using dd.

Every DVD. No problem at all. Straight to an ISO.

Now, if you mean transcoding them at a lower bitrate so they fit on another size DVD.. well.. eh.. good luck.

That said, do people really think that Vista will make this easier? Take a look at Microsoft. They're a DRM shop. They're going to get more and more into the DRM as time goes by. Do you really think it'll even be POSSIBLE to rip DVDs in Vista? Maybe at first.. but.. eventually, they'll just shut it off.

Redcard
September 6th, 2006, 06:02 PM
Making a Fair Use copy is perfectly legal in many countries.

Fair use.

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

(Check the Berne copyright convention. No countries that signed that allow you to make fair use copies against the rules of the convention.)

Paul133
September 7th, 2006, 12:31 AM
elpuerco, what do you mean the installer doesn't work from the LiveCD? I had the same problem; it neevr loaded, so I tried the alternate CD. Even that hung so I installed the server edition and then did
aptitude install ubuntu-desktop and now Ubuntu works perfectly and IMO, the installer was easier than Windows, no hunting for drivers, a great community, and everything for free and Free! And I know, I've installed XP before, not too easy. I'd urge you to give it another go. The most important thing to remember is to never give up. And thank you for stating your opinion courteously and professionally, and not flaming Ubuntu!

jackkerouac
September 7th, 2006, 02:23 AM
Fair use.

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

(Check the Berne copyright convention. No countries that signed that allow you to make fair use copies against the rules of the convention.)

The Berne Convention doesn't say that. What the Berne Convention does say is that signatories must protect the rights of copyright holders from other members of the Berne Union 'in the same way it protects the copyright of its own nationals.'

For example, anything published, shown or performed in Canada must be subject to Canadian copyright law, regardless of where it was originally created.

Canada is a good example of fair use in action. For how long, who knows?

Penzao
September 7th, 2006, 03:00 AM
i really have no idea what u guys are talking about when you say ebuntu is diffucult to install. Im 15 and i had no problem. Truthfully i find Ubuntu easier to intall. I can get through the installation by simply hitting yes at every dialouge box. The only problem i had was my GUI didnt work and a simple google search fixed that in 2 minutes.

Truthfully i think linux is a much better OS than Windows but Linux is not fully supported. I dual boot only because i enjoy video games and none of them work on linux. Also i have found a suitable replacement for powerpoint.

GuitarHero
September 7th, 2006, 03:08 AM
You see the original post was complaining that things don't work right away. And it's true. To get Linux working you have to tweak many things. In Windows they simply work. You shouldn't blame just hardware manufacturers for the lack of drivers but also the open-source community. I was shocked to see that some dvelopers are considering binary drivers (like ATI's and NVIDIA's) illegal just because thay connect to the kernel which is open-source. I think the open source community should help hardware manufacturers to develop viable Linux drivers and not demand for GPL drivers (being given their market share they are in no position to do so).

Do you realize how much harder it is to reverse engineer these drivers than it is for the manufacturer to make them? The community doesnt have all the info to easily whip together some drivers, if we did they would be made by now. Ill take binary drivers, as long as they work. Things in windows dont instantly work either. Do a fresh install of windows and tell me everything just works. Or even buy a preloaded windows box, use it for a year and tell me everything just works. Windows gets bogged down by spyware and viruses, and if it doesnt it gets bogged down by the multitude of programs preventing the mass take-over of the system by malicious software. Drivers have to be installed and configured in windows too, and ubuntu comes with a lot more than windows does by default.

sabredog
September 7th, 2006, 04:21 AM
I'm in complete agreement with this.

As am I.

I maintain 6 PC's at home, plus 3 more family member's PC's. Two of those PC's are dual boot Ubuntu/XP.

Each PC has it's own set of challenges and Windows installs always come unstuck when the installer encounters a hardware device it cannot recognise.

Install Windows and then CD swap until all drivers, software (Office, DTP, IM clients et al) means a long session for any average user or even an experienced user. Ubuntu is one CD, a few questions and a cup of coffee. Update and install Automatix and it is done.

My parents are plain, simple, average users that expect the OS to work. There is no way either my father or father in law could install Windows on their own, period!

magicmike
September 7th, 2006, 09:15 AM
aysiu: thanks for spotting that broken link, it's fixed now.

atrus123: I heard Maya runs faster on Linux, but I don't have any experience with it, since they don't offer a downloadable demo for Linux. :frown:

In the film world it's very much the reverse of the cad world. The majority of computers that are mission critical are Unix/Linux/mac then windows for "windows only" software.

This post does bring up a need for maybe a Linux self-defense manual? It would be useful for hitting arrogant windows users on the head with it. :rolleyes:

Tomosaur
September 7th, 2006, 12:57 PM
Who cares if it's a toy? I like to play :D

Redcard
September 7th, 2006, 02:03 PM
The Berne Convention doesn't say that. What the Berne Convention does say is that signatories must protect the rights of copyright holders from other members of the Berne Union 'in the same way it protects the copyright of its own nationals.'

For example, anything published, shown or performed in Canada must be subject to Canadian copyright law, regardless of where it was originally created.

Canada is a good example of fair use in action. For how long, who knows?

Fair Use does not mean you can make a copy, though.

Remmeber, in Canada, you pay a tax on every media that is capable of storing a digitial recording based on the amount of recording that media is capable of storing.

Fair use NEVER meant you could make a copy of something. Ever. EVER. Fair use meant that you could use a copy of something _IN PART_ (No nation has ever set a percentage) for the purpose of criticism, parody, critique, and the like.

Fair use is taking a research paper and quoting parts of it in your own paper. It's NOT going out and ripping that copy of The Lion King you bought to fit onto a 4.8G DVD.

That's why I say, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

elpuerco
September 7th, 2006, 02:19 PM
OK, update time... I had various other post going on which rectified the situation but here goes.

The LiveCD did not install for me as during the install I resized my main hdd to house Ubuntu. It did this and was formated as ntfs which I did not remember from old days that linux needs ext3 etc.

The install got to 15% and just returned to the desktop with no error or anything to say why it failed?

I then tried the Kubuntu alternate iso and it installed a dream as it paused at the ntfs drive thus telling me what the problem was. I rectified it an the rest is history.

As far as I am concerned Kubuntu has blown WindowsXP for me out of the water, I love it. As does my colleague who has seen my setup and has just converted himself. My brother is next this coming weekend.

So this thread was created DURING my attempts to get past the LiveCD problem.

I have been playing with Kubuntu everyday since I installed and am happy as punch.

I would ditch WindowsXP but cannot as it is the dual boot OS on this laptop which belongs to ......work :(

So alternate iso EXCELLENT, LiveCD could use some better error handling.

However, I have a working copy of Kubuntu and am glad I persisted and didn't give up:D

PS SoundMachine....fair comment, I duly retract my comment ;)

argie
September 7th, 2006, 04:21 PM
Wow, congrats. That's one nice success story.

nothingworks
September 7th, 2006, 05:09 PM
elpuerco - I'm in the exact same boat as you, I'n fact I may be your captain :p

After trying the latest ubuntu (6.06), I've decided to wait another 2 years for it to mature. (video "geforce 256-movies play frame by frame, no 3d",sound "isa creative awe64-initially not detected, now no sound",network "encore pci-no driver" all dont work out of the "box")

My recommendations for a better linux :) :
1) set up a universal driver repository, with drivers for all chipsets and devices. It may be large because of the various kernels/versions/instruction sets, but it will be worth it.
Atleast let there be a version with basic x86 support :cool: . If someone wants a faster/optimized driver let him continue looking for a "better" driver, or build one himself from source.
Maybe allow manufacturers to put a "Linux Supported" sticker on their products once they have submitted a driver to this repository, and after verification by the maintainers.
2) put an end to the philosophy that a program needs to be built for each use seperately (i.e remove the dreaded "make install" :evil: )
3) provide a decent hardware install tool (with gui) that can be used for *any* hardware on a machine. No more command line stuff like isapnp, vi /etc/modules etc
If a piece of hardware cannot be installed, show it in a list and show the appropriate errors to the user. Dont hide it and pretend it does not exist.
4) The software/package update tool should get and display the top repositories automatically. Even the ones that provide mp3/dvd/video codecs and players.
5) If a particular piece of hardware is not supported by the pre-built kernel, mention it *before* the install. Dont make a user rebuild the kernel to get his 3d accelerator to work, instead he can simply switch to a distro that does support it :mrgreen:
6) auto detect and mount all partitions by default. They are there to be used. Otherwise Ask the user which ones he wants.

bruce89
September 7th, 2006, 05:52 PM
After trying the latest ubuntu (6.1), I've decided to wait another 2 years for it to mature. (video "geforce 256-movies play frame by frame, no 3d",sound "isa creative awe64-initially not detected, now no sound",network "encore pci-no driver" all dont work out of the "box")

6.10 is a development release, it is not supposed to be stable. This is like complaining that Vista doesn't work properly.

You should try 6.06.1 first, as it is the current stable.

ago
September 7th, 2006, 07:11 PM
elpuerco - I'm in the exact same boat as you, I'n fact I may be your captain :p

After trying the latest ubuntu (6.1), I've decided to wait another 2 years for it to mature. (video "geforce 256-movies play frame by frame, no 3d",sound "isa creative awe64-initially not detected, now no sound",network "encore pci-no driver" all dont work out of the "box")

1) As mentioned above use 6.6 not 6.10. If you plan to use it on old hardware use Xubuntu, not Ubuntu

2) For the video check the legacy driver, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1424754 (I have a geforse 256 and works fine out of the box, with video, don't remember doing any tweaking)

3) Sound, try snd-sbawe module or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToSetupSoundCards.

4) Etherent, I do not even know if the card is supported or not or the module is missing. I know it costs $4. Is investing other $4 such an unreasonable proposition to you?

ago
September 7th, 2006, 07:21 PM
2) put an end to the philosophy that a program needs to be built for each use seperately (i.e remove the dreaded "make install" :evil: )
3) provide a decent hardware install tool (with gui) that can be used for *any* hardware on a machine. No more command line stuff like isapnp, vi /etc/modules etc
If a piece of hardware cannot be installed, show it in a list and show the appropriate errors to the user. Dont hide it and pretend it does not exist.

You need to understand that hardware is either supported or not supported. Full stop.

If something is not preinstalled and not available through repos, it means that it is not supported and you should treat it as such and not try to fight it. If you have a mac would you try to fight against a wireless card that is not supported by OSX? Why do you expect any hardware to work on Linux? If you want to play with Linux use Linux compatible hardware.


4) The software/package update tool should get and display the top repositories automatically. Even the ones that provide mp3/dvd/video codecs and players.
Probably in edgy


5) If a particular piece of hardware is not supported by the pre-built kernel, mention it *before* the install.
That is why there is a live CD. You try the live CD and check that everything is working. Then you install.


6) auto detect and mount all partitions by default. They are there to be used. Otherwise Ask the user which ones he wants.
Mountpoints should be created automatically under /media. Just click on one of those folders within nautilus.

aysiu
September 7th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Ubuntu is not Linux. It is one Linux distribution.

Mepis and Knoppix, for example, automatically mount partitions when you click on them. In Ubuntu, you still get weird pmount and /etc/mtab errors when you try to click-mount a Windows partition. That's not a Linux problem--it's a Ubuntu problem and has been since Warty.

ago
September 7th, 2006, 07:32 PM
you still get weird pmount and /etc/mtab errors when you try to click-mount a Windows partition.
Did not notice... I don't have a windows partition anymore... :D

aysiu
September 7th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Did not notice... I don't have a windows partition anymore... :D
Doesn't happen to me, either, as I don't use my Windows partition any more, and when I did, I knew how to edit my /etc/fstab to mount it properly.

But if you look at this Google search (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=mount+windows+partition+site%3Aubuntuforums.org&btnG=Search), you'll see it's a quite common problem, actually.

nothingworks
September 7th, 2006, 07:43 PM
it is 6.06,from the live cd. post updated

nothingworks
September 7th, 2006, 07:48 PM
1) As mentioned above use 6.6 not 6.10. If you plan to use it on old hardware use Xubuntu, not Ubuntu

2) For the video check the legacy driver, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1424754 (I have a geforse 256 and works fine out of the box, with video, don't remember doing any tweaking)

3) Sound, try snd-sbawe module or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HowToSetupSoundCards.

4) Etherent, I do not even know if the card is supported or not or the module is missing. I know it costs $4. Is investing other $4 such an unreasonable proposition to you?

1)Corrected my post, I am using 6.06.
1,2)Ok I'll try Xubuntu next, and updating the Geforce 256 driver.
3)I had tried snd-sbawe before, and thats how it gets detected now. The volume controls all move. Just no sound.
4)I bought this NIC because newegg reviewers said they could install it on linux. Only the source came with the install disc. My ubuntu does not even have the build tools :(

nothingworks
September 7th, 2006, 08:17 PM
You need to understand that hardware is either supported or not supported.
If you want to play with Linux use Linux compatible hardware.

Thats why Linux still has a way to go!


That is why there is a live CD. You try the live CD and check that everything is working. Then you install.

The live cd will indicate that some hardware does not work, but it wont tell you that the problem may be severe enough to warrant a kernel rebuild.


Mountpoints should be created automatically under /media. Just click on one of those folders within nautilus.

I didnt check /media (isnt that for CD/DVD etc?), but it was not mounted in /mnt. I had to add the partitions manually to /etc/fstab

ago
September 8th, 2006, 12:13 AM
Thats why Linux still has a way to go!
That is true for any OS... Linux supports more hardware than anything else, including Windows. Most of this hardware is not relevant for desktop users, but the fact remains. No OS works on ALL hardware, and you have to check that first.


The live cd will indicate that some hardware does not work, but it wont tell you that the problem may be severe enough to warrant a kernel rebuild.
If the hardware does not work with the cdrom it simply means it is not supported. You are still free to try and crack it, but you cannot complain, since you knew beforehand that you were using unsupported hardware. The only difference with other OSes is that in Linux you can give it a go even if hardware is not supported, and you can try to compile alpha software yourself or use wrappers around external solutions, with mac and windows you can't. That does not mean those OSes are any "easier" with unsupported hardware.


I didnt check /media (isnt that for CD/DVD etc?), but it was not mounted in /mnt.
Having mountpoints within /mnt is now deprecated by FHS

ago
September 8th, 2006, 12:29 AM
3)I had tried snd-sbawe before, and thats how it gets detected now. The volume controls all move. Just no sound.
Have you tried: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=103180
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=44691 #9


4)I bought this NIC because newegg reviewers said they could install it on linux. Only the source came with the install disc. My ubuntu does not even have the build tools :(
You can download separately the build-essential packages (with all the dependencies not already installed) and the kernel headers using another pc with working connection and then install respecting the dependency order them with dpkg -i.

Or you make an outragious $4 investment and buy another network card. Get one that is known to be autodetected https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsWiredNetworkCards

aysiu
September 8th, 2006, 12:31 AM
The build-essential metapackage is actually on both the Desktop CD and Alternate CD, so you don't need a network connection to install it:
sudo apt-cdrom add
sudo aptitude update
sudo aptitude install build-essential

bubz_the_troll
September 8th, 2006, 02:08 AM
"Things that frustrate me in Ubuntu. Why I'll buy VISTA"

1. I have unlimited disposible income and I need a legitimate reason to upgrade to 8GB of RAM.
2. It's the only way I know to help out the charaties that Bill Gates donates to.
3. I miss spending $50 per year on anti-virus software.
4. MS Paint is far superior to the GIMP.
5. The blue screen of death is extremely informative.

nothingworks
September 8th, 2006, 02:27 AM
Have you tried: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=103180
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=44691

I tried this before my PCI NIC was installed and it did not help, However today when I tried switching the "PNP OS Installed, Yes/No" option in the bios and restarted, Sound worked.


You can download separately the build-essential packages (with all the dependencies not already installed) and the kernel headers using another pc with working connection and then install respecting the dependency order them with dpkg -i.

I'll have to go through the makefile and find what packages I need, And also download the build-essential stuff (headers,compiler,libraries) seperately and transfer them via CD to this machine :( Lots of work, I dont even know where to put them after getting them.:confused:


Or you make an outragious $4 investment and buy another network card. Get one that is known to be autodetected

FYI it was not $4, it was $5 with a $5 rebate.

nothingworks
September 8th, 2006, 02:28 AM
The build-essential metapackage is actually on both the Desktop CD and Alternate CD, so you don't need a network connection to install it:
sudo apt-cdrom add
sudo aptitude update
sudo aptitude install build-essential
I'll try this now...

nothingworks
September 8th, 2006, 03:26 AM
The Nvidia legacy driver install failed because I dont have the "precompiled kernel interfaces/modules"

I had to restart in recovery mode because my X server does not know how to stay dead after a ctrl-alt-backspace.

While booting in recovery mode I could see all the devices and errors. (how do I see this while starting normally, instead of the graphical loading progress bar?)

Noticed that I am already using the same version of the Legacy driver that failed to install :), so I think its a configuration issue to make 3d work and improve performance.

Another observation, My Encore NIC card works perfectly if I boot to win98 and then restart into Ubuntu. Maybe it does not know how to get a local IP via DHCP ? Any suggestions on how to check/force DHCP ?

I installed build essential successfully from the live CD, but alas it was not enough to build the encore driver. I need some missing kernel libraries and headers.

I also need to know how to add a repository to get software and codecs (mp3,divx,ac3,mpeg2, or vlc). I need all that good stuff thats currently missing :cool: Anyone have a guide? I remember following one to get things working in fedora core 2.

nu2this
September 8th, 2006, 05:19 AM
OK, here goes! I AM A DUNCE!
I did Ubuntu install fine,have self-borked my ubuntu,have had it inadvertantly borked by Ubuntu(that xorg fiasco)&the fix by Ubuntu was Quick!! And it works! Now because of my own inexperience I did a complete PC restore. The XP partition took 2 hours Ubuntu partition < 20 min OK I cheated I used Automatix still though I got installed & working fine.
I've had a PC for about 2 years now,of that 1.25 total was spent in WXP. The result of that is that I didn't have as many Window habits to unlearn.
In all fairness to you elpuerco working since 1998 with windows you probably
have both known & unknown to you habits you need to unlearn. I know I had to. The other reason I mention habits is because there's some in here that have identified themseelves as kids & they get linux right off. Unlike me they may have had no windows exposure at all.
Thats the main thing If you want to learn linux forget everything you've learned windows

twistedwrench
September 8th, 2006, 05:22 AM
Here's my MAJOR problem:
Everytime an update is available I have to do a google searck to see if any posts have come out about any problems especially X11 /Xorg anything that has to do with the display because my setup is dual monitors in xinerama and SO FAR EVERY UPDATE has messed that up, wether it be the core xorg file or fonts or whatever....Never had that problem in Winblows with ati drivers and winblows update....
Just a thought for the dev team out there - test the stuff with different configs not just a single monitor before you put it in the repos!!:twisted: :twisted:

3rdalbum
September 8th, 2006, 07:13 AM
Twistedwrench, I'm sure they'd love to have you on their testing team, especially with the new quality control procedures they're sure to have.

I used a Mac for years and years. Most of the time, the hardware you could buy in the general stores was PC-only, and would not work on the Mac. Mac users had to go to Apple resellers, or do research on whether a PC peripheral could be made to work on the Mac.

During this time, I *never* heard a Mac user say "Apple still has a long way to go". Makes you think, doesn't it?

elpuerco
September 8th, 2006, 09:52 AM
I have another laptop which I am going to experiment on over the weekend to see how it goes again using the LiveCD first as I want to see what happens at the hd selection process.

I will post my findings when done.

However, going home and turning on this laptop and loading Kubuntu rather than XP is such a relief! The speed is no much more noticable, and much more fun to use :D

ago
September 8th, 2006, 10:09 AM
The Nvidia legacy driver install failed because I dont have the "precompiled kernel interfaces/modules"
I guess you have a mismatch between the version of the kernel and the version of the module you are trying to use.

In any case you have to do things in order in Linux. Particularly with Debian based system, the very first thing is to get the network card working. Once that is done then you unleash apt and all the rest becomes much easier (plus you can easily look for help). If you go the other way around, you are going to make your life miserable. If for any reason you can't get you network card working, go in any computer shop and buy another one, they are really cheap these days, and are really not worth the trouble. Even if you are in learning mood, the network card is certainly NOT a good place to start.

Once you have that covered, the second step is to try Automatix or EasyUbuntu. Chances are they will also fix your 3D video driver. For anything else you follow the UbuntuGuide (http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper). If you are still not covered you ask on forum/chat. Only as a very, very last resort you start pocking with the system yourself.

At the moment you are moving in the wrong direction.


While booting in recovery mode I could see all the devices and errors. (how do I see this while starting normally, instead of the graphical loading progress bar?)

You might want to turn off usplash for the time being, you can put it back later

http://www.cs.cornell.edu/~djm/ubuntu/index_breezy.htm#disable-usplash

Once in a console you can use dmesg and the logs in /var/log to see what went wrong


Noticed that I am already using the same version of the Legacy driver that failed to install :), so I think its a configuration issue to make 3d work and improve performance.
Check the X11 log, see if the appropriate driver is loaded, it might be that xorg.conf is pointing to another driver. Probably automatix/easyubuntu can fix that for you. But again, you would need to setup the network first.


Another observation, My Encore NIC card works perfectly if I boot to win98 and then restart into Ubuntu. Maybe it does not know how to get a local IP via DHCP ? Any suggestions on how to check/force DHCP ?

Use ifconfig to check if you can see the card. You should have an entry for eth0. If not, you can use lspci (list of pci devices), lsmod (list of modules), dmesg to understand why you do not see it at all.

You can change the settings with System -> Administration -> Networking. If you like to do things manually, the settings for network cards are in /etc/network/interfaces it should read something like: "iface eth0 inet dhcp". After you edit the file you restart the interface with "ifdown eth0 & ifup eth0".

Consider that it might also be a bios issue.


I installed build essential successfully from the live CD, but alas it was not enough to build the encore driver. I need some missing kernel libraries and headers.
You need the kernel headers for your matching kernel. To see what kernel you are using 'uname -r'. I am not sure if kernel headers are on the CD (never had issues with network cards myself). Note that when you compile a driver every time you install a new kernel you need to recompile against that. But if the network card worked, it is probably something else. Check that first before compiling anything. You should avoid compiling drivers whenever possible. Often it is not required at all.


I also need to know how to add a repository to get software and codecs (mp3,divx,ac3,mpeg2, or vlc). I need all that good stuff thats currently missing :cool: Anyone have a guide? I remember following one to get things working in fedora core 2.
Use Automatix or EasyUbuntu. If you want to do things manually use the ubuntu guide or look for restrictedformats in the wiki.

Blondie
September 8th, 2006, 04:23 PM
aysiu: thanks for spotting that broken link, it's fixed now.

atrus123: I heard Maya runs faster on Linux, but I don't have any experience with it, since they don't offer a downloadable demo for Linux. :frown:

In the film world it's very much the reverse of the cad world. The majority of computers that are mission critical are Unix/Linux/mac then windows for "windows only" software.

I think this may be similar to the usage of Linux in supercomputers. For massive processing jobs where you need stability, sheer efficiency and an ultra-reliable workhorse of an operating system people turn to Linux. Windows and OSX are more suited to personal computing with human user interfaces etc. For small graphics uses like CAD/CAM or simple animations OSX or Windows or used. For heavy duty, ultra sophisticated animations such as the making of Shrek 2 (http://www.vnunet.com/vnunet/news/2125356/linux-behind-magic-shrek) Linux is used.

nothingworks
September 8th, 2006, 11:21 PM
thanks for your helpful comments ago, I bought another NIC (3com) from ebay ($5 shipped) and it works perfectly. I'll keep the $0 encore one for some other windoze pc.

Only two things left, get 3D working and install codecs and players. Will try your suggestions later:p

ago
September 9th, 2006, 01:07 AM
Only two things left, get 3D working and install codecs and players. Will try your suggestions later:p
Use either Automatix or EasyUbuntu

kencoe
September 9th, 2006, 02:04 AM
Actually, all of the things you attribute to MS were done by Apple first.

I would point out that MS did not steal DOS from Apple. It was handed to them on a platter by IBM. As far as the GUI, it is a moot point. they both stole the GUI (and the mouse) from XEROX.

With regard to Linux being a toy, I wonder how much Google has made off of their toy. I would also point out that Catia and Ford's C3P series of applications, among the most powerful CAD programs in the world, run natively in Linux.

kencoe
September 9th, 2006, 02:40 AM
Does anyone know if this guy works for microsoft... :-k

lapsey
September 9th, 2006, 03:50 AM
the intelligence of a writer is inversely proportional to the length of their paragraphs.

maniacmusician
September 9th, 2006, 04:06 AM
the intelligence of a writer is inversely proportional to the length of their paragraphs.
lol, well said, my friend.

aysiu
September 9th, 2006, 04:08 AM
the intelligence of a writer is inversely proportional to the length of their paragraphs.
I'm.

gonna.

half.

two.

disagree.

wif.

that.

idear.

fuscia
September 9th, 2006, 04:30 AM
What I don't get is--why do people feel the need to convince others out of using Linux?


linux saps our precious bodily fluids.

.t.
September 9th, 2006, 10:58 AM
What I don't get is--why do people feel the need to convince others out of using Linux?You are so right.

However, I was never Mr. Machado, and have always wanted to not use Windows, purely for fear of the unknown, and that willing to explore. And now I don't, and am completely happy.

Reshin
September 9th, 2006, 11:06 AM
What I wanna know is why linux users keep ranting on and on about OS X or windows users being idiots or prisoners if they're happy with that os.

Lord Illidan
September 9th, 2006, 11:17 AM
What I wanna know is why linux users keep ranting on and on about OS X or windows users being idiots or prisoners if they're happy with that os.

If they're happy with that os, fine...power to them.

But if they condemn linux and make fun of it, because they don't understand it, yes, than they are prisoners to microsoft's way of thinking!

.t.
September 9th, 2006, 11:33 AM
What I wanna know is why linux users keep ranting on and on about OS X or windows users being idiots or prisoners if they're happy with that os.
It's their way of showing appreciation for Linux. They enjoy using it, and want others to too. When this doesn't happen, they get frustrated.

NiceGuy
September 9th, 2006, 02:08 PM
The problem with this guys mentality and unfortunately the mentality of a lot of windows (and mac for that matter) users is that if they do install linux they invariably DO run in to problems (I'd say about 90% of those problems is lack of knowledge but there you go). Now this isn't the fault of linux because EVERY OS has 'problems' associated with it (with windows you need to mess around with anti-virus/firewalls and then about 2 or so years down the line you need to re-install the os because of registry errors and fragmented HD and as for osx, well if you want the newest itunes to work you need to buy the latest version of osx - BUT then you need to reformat the HD because you can't do a straight upgrade because of 'undefined threads' whatever that means!), but for some reason they accept that with Windows/OSX but won't accept problems on linux - Even if the problems can be solved on linux but the same problem can't on windows.

Example (adapted from personal experience).

User is having problems with his wireless network. His signal is low and intermittent under windows and he has tried multiple drivers to no avail.

User installs ubuntu. His wireless card is not automatically found and needs separate drivers (which he expects in windows but for some reason he doesn't expect or like it from linux - probably because most stuff is autodetected). So we get the drivers, after reading the ubuntu wiki we manage to install the drivers. Wireless card works great, I think 'yey problem solved' his response, 'that was way too hard and not worth the effort' so he goes back to windows and buys a different wireless card.


If anyone has any bright ideas about how to change this mentality then I'm all ears.

paul cooke
September 9th, 2006, 02:41 PM
Microsoft employs people to trash talk other OSes... the modus operandi is to use just enough truth in the message to make it seem real and to always use words like "feels" "seems". There's a whole rich seam of FUD out there which they're continually recycling in various forms in front of credulous people. They don't succeed where there are people with real world experience though. They continually try to put people off trying the alternatives.

http://www.inlumineconsulting.com:8080/website/msft.shilling.html

atrus123
September 9th, 2006, 02:52 PM
Oh, I'm not surprised by this guy. When die-hard Windows users go after Linux, it is obvious that they have never actually used Linux beyond maybe some RH9 install from years ago.

The best response is just to pat him on the head, compliment him for his little essay, and send him to the store for candy.

elpuerco
September 9th, 2006, 07:27 PM
Okey dokey pig in a pokey...

On a different laptop, Hi-Grade Notino R5400, 40GB Drive, Savage video, ethernet card and wireless, about 3-4 years old??

Ubuntu LiveCD:

Hung at bootup saying loading vesa

Ubuntu Alternate CD:

Hung at install packages 86%

Kubuntu Alternate CD:

Immediate install resulting in functional OS.

Problems encountered:

Unable to configure wireless adaptor as Kubuntu cannot detect it? The option K Menu -> Internet -> Wireless Assistant automatically closes as no adaptor detected.

Now I don't know for sure if it is a harware failure issue or not as this laptop has not been used for some time and for some reason I am unable to access the BIOS as when I press DEL to enter setup it simply continues to boot ignoring the keystroke!

Mmmmmmm.................?

darrenm
September 9th, 2006, 08:27 PM
but for some reason they accept that with Windows/OSX but won't accept problems on linux - Even if the problems can be solved on linux but the same problem can't on windows

If anyone has any bright ideas about how to change this mentality then I'm all ears.

I would completely agree with that.

Taken from www.urbandictionary.com:

If Operating Systems Ran The Airlines...

UNIX Airways

Everyone brings one piece of the plane along when they come to the airport. They all go out on the runway and put the plane together piece by piece, arguing non-stop about what kind of plane they are supposed to be building.

Air DOS

Everybody pushes the airplane until it glides, then they jump on and let the plane coast until it hits the ground again. Then they push again, jump on again, and so on...

Mac Airlines

All the stewards, captains, baggage handlers, and ticket agents look and act exactly the same. Every time you ask questions about details, you are gently but firmly told that you don't need to know, don't want to know, and everything will be done for you without your ever having to know, so just shut up.

Windows Air

The terminal is pretty and colourful, with friendly stewards, easy baggage check and boarding, and a smooth take-off. After about 10 minutes in the air, the plane explodes with no warning whatsoever.

Windows NT Air

Just like Windows Air, but costs more, uses much bigger planes, and takes out all the other aircraft within a 40-mile radius when it explodes.

Windows XP Air

You turn up at the airport,which is under contract to only allow XP Air planes. All the aircraft are identical, brightly coloured and three times as big as they need to be. The signs are huge and all point the same way. Whichever way you go, someone pops up dressed in a cloak and pointed hat insisting you follow him. Your luggage and clothes are taken off you and replaced with an XP Air suit and suitcase identical to everyone around you as this is included in the exorbitant ticket cost. The aircraft will not take off until you have signed a contract. The inflight entertainment promised turns out to be the same Mickey Mouse cartoon repeated over and over again. You have to phone your travel agent before you can have a meal or drink. You are searched regularly throughout the flight. If you go to the toilet twice or more you get charged for a new ticket. No matter what destination you booked you will always end up crash landing at Whistler in Canada.

Linux Air

Disgruntled employees of all the other OS airlines decide to start their own airline. They build the planes, ticket counters, and pave the runways themselves. They charge a small fee to cover the cost of printing the ticket, but you can also download and print the ticket yourself.

When you board the plane, you are given a seat, four bolts, a wrench and a copy of the seat-HOWTO.html. Once settled, the fully adjustable seat is very comfortable, the plane leaves and arrives on time without a single problem, the in-flight meal is wonderful. You try to tell customers of the other airlines about the great trip, but all they can say is, "You had to do what with the seat?"

naes341
September 9th, 2006, 10:44 PM
hello!

my suggestion: sell a full system with a printer. you work around any driver issues, because you simply sell only printers that work under linux. put the automatix script as a button on the desktop. i've never used it, but i think it installs everything, with legal notes where needed. (i dont know the legal situation in the u.s. but i think it could be O.K.)

i installed ubuntu for my mother. i removed everything from the desktop except 4 buttons: firefox, thunderbird, word, shutdown. i renamed them "surf the internet", "email", "writing letters", "turn off". she is so happy now. she never understood why she had to press "start" to actually STOP the computer :-)

she was allways in fear of strange adware (when she opened IE she had to close many windows before she was able to see the adress bar...).

she is the un-tech-savyest person on this world i know, and she likes ubuntu more than windows! But it took me hours to get there. with that amount of time, you maybe can change the windows desktop, too. but she would ve never been able to....


This is exactly what will help spread linux for regular users.

bruce89
September 9th, 2006, 11:01 PM
Yeah right so I suppose they made the spyware removal programs for OSX and Linux for nothing then right?
Where are these tools?


When you board the plane, you are given a seat, four bolts, a wrench and a copy of the seat-HOWTO.html. Once settled, the fully adjustable seat is very comfortable, the plane leaves and arrives on time without a single problem, the in-flight meal is wonderful. You try to tell customers of the other airlines about the great trip, but all they can say is, "You had to do what with the seat?"

Not quite true nowadays, I never had to R a FM, but the occasional wiki page does help.

One slightly offtopic point now. Windows doesn't have support for modern codecs such as Vorbis, Theora, FLAC etc. out of the box, whereas Ubuntu has.

NiceGuy
September 9th, 2006, 11:14 PM
Where are these tools?

Actually I'd love to know where to find these tools too. It would mean that I could repair windows os's without risking my own and I could finally get rid of xp. At the moment all I have found is a few antivirus programs (aimed at mail servers - ps. the bit defender one it quite good) but no actual anti-spyware programs. I suppose it probably has to do with not being able to 'safely' write to NTFS partitions, but once that changes - who knows!

Yossarian
September 10th, 2006, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by NiceGuy
Actually I'd love to know where to find these tools too. It would mean that I could repair windows os's without risking my own and I could finally get rid of xp. At the moment all I have found is a few antivirus programs (aimed at mail servers - ps. the bit defender one it quite good) but no actual anti-spyware programs. I suppose it probably has to do with not being able to 'safely' write to NTFS partitions, but once that changes - who knows!

I use Knoppix to work on the Windows boxes in my house. It's pretty cool. It can write to NTFS, and I think it comes with ClamAV. If it doesn't you could just APT it.

Mostly though, I just use it to partimage and backup to network/USB drives. I find Windows sucks at copying huge batches of files.

scubanator87
September 10th, 2006, 02:51 AM
I think the only thing that sucks is softwars company outlook on linux.

I have been using ubuntu for almost a year and boot cds for a little longer. i firdst dual booted my laptop because i was tired of windows giving me the finger when i needed to get something productive done. i have since then only kept my xp partition around because about 1% of the time ill come accross something that is windows only or some other such rubish. on 2 of my 3 desktops at my dads hows ubuntu runs full time. my younger brother is 16 and learned the basic neccesities of what he needs to do to get things done. he loves ubuntu. the desktop in our kitchen is also currently on dapper (i used it to test suse). and my dad using windows since its been out sent me this email.

"Intergrates very easily with outlook, and kitch computer converts exCel and word docs very well.

Goot nite"

now while he means thunderbird, its just proof of how well things work and he doesnt even know the diffrence. the reason i installed ubuntu on that computer is cause it was meant to be kind of a kiosk in our house. for example "hey thats a cool ad on the tv lets check it out online. good thing the computer is right here." but the problem is people like my step mom shouldnt be allowed near computers with windwos. all she does is go on internet sales sites and online gambling and she has trashed 2 laptops with windows and originally killed the one in the kitchen. it has been virus/spyware/adware/malware free for nearly a year now. setting up the printer took about 35 seconds. our printer is on the network in our house. i gave it the ip f the printer told it what kind it was and it says ok. done.

i just recently installed dapper on my moms home viao cause after 4 years xp finnaly took a dump. she thought that it was over and that she had lost all her work firles and pictures and music and such. but then i poped INSERT in and plugged up my external saved all her stuff made it dual boot and now she spends most her time in linux. so i say keep up the good work guy cause your dooing it better each time!

nothingworks
September 10th, 2006, 05:16 AM
Use either Automatix or EasyUbuntu

Automatix installed the correct driver and everything is working now. Maybe I should change my name.

BoHu
September 10th, 2006, 06:29 AM
The people who buy the used computers at that store will most likely be using dial-up internet, which means that linux will be very frustrating for them. Ever tried apt-get/synaptic at 32 kbps? Trust me, it sucks.

bobbybobington
September 10th, 2006, 06:33 AM
I dont know where you live, but most people get dsl (here anyways) because dialup is too slow. Of course this should be not excuse for dialup being so hard to get working.

NiceGuy
September 10th, 2006, 09:49 AM
I believe that ntfs writing is getting more and more 'safe' but I'll be hesident to try it on other people machines till its very safe (ie. almost native).

And yes I've heard of ClamAV but doesn't it only target virus' not ad/mal/spyware?

Yes Knoppix is a great tool but I mainly use it for backing up users data when their hard drive is failing. With that in mind I wish it had a 'lighter' gui so it wouldn't take so long to boot - anyone heard of any alternatives? I need some thing like knoppix (ie. a live cd), with the same/better hardware auto detection that knoppix has and which will auto mount all the drives on a system, but with a light gui.

Mark

Blondie
September 10th, 2006, 10:12 AM
As a computer technican I know that Windows works but people think about an other way of 'working'. They think after installing Windows it's all ready to go. It's very freaky to see how dumb or ignorant the majority of people can be. A lot of people think that Windows is all. You'll get the Operating System installed, Office installed and sometimes of course semi-professional sound / video editing software.

I've lost the count how often I referred to customers about Windows stating that:

* Windows is just an Operating System. It's software you install in order to control your hardware and install applications.

* Windows means a Operating Systems. Office means wordprocessing and etc and yes... it are two seperate packages you have to purchase.

* Why you are paying $40,- for a reinstall... because it's not just placing in the disc and go have a cup of coffee. After being asked for input every ten minutes by the setup I'll have to install all of the device drivers, reinstall all your applications of which 30% is illegal (so these you can take home right now) and after that I'll be running two hours of Microsoft Windows Update, Symantec LiveUpdate, Lavasoft Ad-Aware def. files etc.

I wonder what proportion of PC owners using Windows have ever reinstalled Windows themselves (to clean out gunk from the registry or after a bad malware episode or whatever). I never really considered that uber geek territory. Surely a fair proportion of Windows users have done that themselves at some point. Perhaps I'm wrong. Anyone have any ideas about a figure?

DoctorMO
September 10th, 2006, 10:54 AM
It's about 23% of home users have had their machines reinstalled. the figure for how many have done that themselves is even lower. but I forget my source so iggnore this.

missmoondog
September 10th, 2006, 11:03 AM
i used to think like this also. still do in a way afer having spent last weekend trying out various linux distros. out of at least 6 or 7 different ones, not a single one would install correctly! tried well known distros and a couple flaky, less known distros. k/ubuntu changes all that! i can install it on any system with no problems at all. just installed it on an OLD cyrix 486dx yesterday, just to see if i could.

in conclusion, that is the main reason linux sucks for users. the dang installation programs don't work way over half the time!

argie
September 10th, 2006, 11:20 AM
I wonder what proportion of PC owners using Windows have ever reinstalled Windows themselves (to clean out gunk from the registry or after a bad malware episode or whatever). I never really considered that uber geek territory. Surely a fair proportion of Windows users have done that themselves at some point. Perhaps I'm wrong. Anyone have any ideas about a figure?

I remember someone saying that most of these use "System Restore" disks. That isn't reinstalling.

Real reinstalling sucks. Honestly.

aysiu
September 10th, 2006, 12:12 PM
Isn't Damn Small Linux based on Knoppix?

Footissimo
September 10th, 2006, 12:32 PM
There's a whoooole lot of cognitive dissonance going on in those Amazon discussions. Average operating system & huge price tag = dissonance city. I loved this one:


There are so many complaints about Microsoft's pricing because everyone wants the convenience of using Microsoft products without paying the price. If Linux was as user friendly as Windows, everyone would just buy/download Linux and forget that Microsoft products were even available. For example, you don't hear anyone complaining about the price of Rolls Royces because Hondas get you were you need to go at a cheaper price. You would hear complaints about the price of Rolls Royces if they were the only car on the market. The solution lies in developing products with the reliability and interoperability of Microsoft products. Unfortunately this costs money. And four hundred dollars is small potatoes if you like to accomplish tasks at work and and enjoy recreational internet time rather than working on computer glitches and enjoy recreational software tweaks. Here's another way to look at it, you can spend $60 a year for dial-up or $600 a year for high speed. Spend the $600 and enjoy your internet experience. Spend $400 on Windows and enjoy your computer experience. I hope that the Linux crowd comes up with Linux certified hardware. I'd go with them in a heartbeat if I could trust the product to work.

I was going to write a bit about how people would be if they were forced to drive 2CVs because tyre, brake, and exhaust companies had little stock for any other car and the shops were pressured to sell only a few 2CV variants...but then I realised that they have to see that the king hasn't got any clothes on for themselves :) (and I forgot my Amazon login!)

MiKuS
September 10th, 2006, 01:14 PM
I dont understand, why the hell do we (linux users) care what they say/think?

I mean this operating system is there for them to use...if they want to, we're not forcing them. I do have to admit though, i see alot of linux users' bashful comments.

does the linux userbase really hate windows? if so why? whos forcing you to use it? whos forcing you to care?

Reshin
September 10th, 2006, 01:34 PM
I dont understand, why the hell do we (linux users) care what they say/think?

I mean this operating system is there for them to use...if they want to, we're not forcing them. I do have to admit though, i see alot of linux users' bashful comments.

does the linux userbase really hate windows? if so why? whos forcing you to use it? whos forcing you to care?

Substitute the word 'operating system' with 'religion' and you'll understand...

UbuntuniX
September 10th, 2006, 01:48 PM
Just another dumb person hypnotised by microsoft ;)

Blondie
September 10th, 2006, 04:16 PM
Umm..?, Since when is there spyware removal programs for linux..? Do they exist..?? And where the heck do you get them..?

As useful as a chocolate teapot (http://www.plokta.com/plokta/issue23/teapot.htm)? :rolleyes:

3rdalbum
September 10th, 2006, 05:03 PM
That guy you're berating hit the mark completely. I had to write a driver from scratch in order to get my keyboard to work. As it's impossible to type C++ into a computer without the keyboard, this was kind of difficult.

Once that was done, I had to REALLY put my coding skills to work, by writing the ATI Proprietry Driver for my graphics card. This was REALLY difficult: as the ATI Proprietry Driver is closed-source, I wasn't allowed to look at the screen while typing it, and even THINKING about the previous line was strongly discouraged by the license.

By contrast, Windows is hunky-dory. I mean, Linux can't even read or write NORMAL disc image formats like .nrg and .gi! Linux apps are so badly written, they don't even tell you how many more days you have until your trial period is over! I once asked for support on a Linux forum, and the people who replied kept using these technical terms like "boot up" and "network card".

They honestly expected me to know what the hell a "monitor" is! (I went to whatever my default start page is on Windows and Googled that word; apparantly it's the technical term for the thing on my desk that looks like a TV).

The point of this post is: Yes, we can bash Windows all we like, and yes Windows users can bash Linux all they like. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Although I dislike Windows, I honestly can't do 100% of the tasks on my computer without it. So let's not make anyone uncomfortable here.

Yossarian
September 10th, 2006, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by 3rdalbum
That guy you're berating hit the mark completely. I had to write a driver from scratch in order to get my keyboard to work. As it's impossible to type C++ into a computer without the keyboard, this was kind of difficult.

Once that was done, I had to REALLY put my coding skills to work, by writing the ATI Proprietry Driver for my graphics card. This was REALLY difficult: as the ATI Proprietry Driver is closed-source, I wasn't allowed to look at the screen while typing it, and even THINKING about the previous line was strongly discouraged by the license.

By contrast, Windows is hunky-dory. I mean, Linux can't even read or write NORMAL disc image formats like .nrg and .gi! Linux apps are so badly written, they don't even tell you how many more days you have until your trial period is over! I once asked for support on a Linux forum, and the people who replied kept using these technical terms like "boot up" and "network card".

They honestly expected me to know what the hell a "monitor" is! (I went to whatever my default start page is on Windows and Googled that word; apparantly it's the technical term for the thing on my desk that looks like a TV).

The point of this post is: Yes, we can bash Windows all we like, and yes Windows users can bash Linux all they like. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Although I dislike Windows, I honestly can't do 100% of the tasks on my computer without it. So let's not make anyone uncomfortable here.

I had no idea Linux had gotten so user friendly. When I started out I had to burn the install CD manually with a cigarette lighter. And it was snowing. Oh, yeah, and uphill both ways.

3rdalbum
September 10th, 2006, 06:19 PM
I remember someone saying that most of these use "System Restore" disks. That isn't reinstalling.

I've said that; I don't know if I'm the person who originally said it. I wonder how much money Microsoft makes from licensing Win 98 or Win NT to run these restore discs?

I'm laughing though. I've used what is possibly the world's easiest-to-use true installer for an operating system. Mac OS 7.5 and onwards made installing or upgrading your operating system as easy as making a coffee.

MrLeN
September 10th, 2006, 11:20 PM
My Conclusion of Ubuntu as a User Candidate

Conclusion from: I am considering Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=254252)

I decided to make this post as a Part 2 to my last post, because it is rather long and is branching off into other directions. So, I can keep my old post for replies concerning "that" post, and this post for replies concerning the branched comments:

I have just read through all the replies, word for word. I got pretty much what I expected, but I thought I'd ask about each concern that I have -- even though I knew prior that some people may feel that I a may be joking. I never intended to just blast a big hole in Ubuntu, so I appreciate the thoughtful replies. I half expected responses to be more defensive -- but I did ask each of my questions for a reason. I'll elaborate a bit. I wont reply to each person individually, I'll just quote the parts that were said, that I feel I should elaborate; or give a response to..


2 pieces of advice from a guy that was just where you are right now: just try it out, go for dualboot, or use your second rig.

I think I'll just set up another computer and try to install it one weekend. From the replies I have been provided with, I see Ubuntu as being more of a toy than something that can be used for, and in conjunction with business purposes; web dev in particular.


Secondly after a succesful install, and believe me when it comes to hardware ubuntu is pretty adult now, go search the forums for replacements of your software....

I am not against replacements -- just as long as those replacements 1). Do a good job 2). Do not assume that everyone else is using those replacements; ie: Internet Explorer is one such example. I design websites to be W3C compliant, search engine friendly and cross browser friendly. Therefore, even if I personally use FireFox (which I don't by the way), then I can't just assume that everyone else uses it -- because the fact of the matter is, most people use Internet Explorer and likely will for the foreseeable future. Most of the software that is written for eCommerce and business is written for IE before it is for any other browser, and even then other browsers may never get a version. So, it's not about my personal preferences -- but if I did decide to give Ubuntu a go, then I'd still need access to Windows software and environments.

So if Ubuntu doesn't already have a big red button on the desktop saying: "LAUNCH WINDOWS", even if it is not used as an OS, but serves merely to allow me to communicate across both platforms -- then quite frankly, I can't see Ubuntu ever becoming more popular. Ubuntu needs to battle with transition issues, and not just try to convert the world "cold turkey".

On another note: Remember IBM? They were in a position where Microsoft is now. How did the rest of the world convert everyone away from IBM products? They made "compatible" products and sold them for less. If IBM's competition has struggled with contradictory hardware, then today IBM would be on par with Microsoft with a huge monopoly over hardware. Hmm, does "Apple" a bell? So the "hardware" monopoly was killed. BUT the software monopoly got away. Therefore, as I was saying 2 paragraphs ago -- Ubuntu needs to make compatible software, or at the very least: compatibility bridges, or in 2015 Ubuntu will be in the shoes that Apple is in today, and not the shoes that IBM's competition is in today. Did you know what IBM don't even make computers anymore? They are a solutions company.


Outlook Express - You can't seriously expect anyone to accept that you use that by choice!!
I do, and I find it quite useful.


MSN Messenger - No problem ... Linux supports several clones.
Great.


Yahoo Messenger - Same as MSN ... although Yahoo proper is available for Linux too.
Great.


Skype - Available for Linux.
Great.


ICQ - Several Linux chat apps have ICQ support.
Hmm, ok -- I suppose.


AIM - Several Linux chat apps have AIM support.
Hmm, ok -- I suppose.


iTunes - Line Outlook, there are many superior alternatives.
Like Outlook -- I want iTunes. That's my choice.


HTML-Kit - Never heard of it ... Linux has several hundred markup editors though, if that's what you're after.
There is no better editor than HTML kit, for someone who writes code 12 hours a day.


CuteFTP - Not a nice app ... used way better in Linux, Windows and OS X.
Yeah, it's a bit scary -- but it has some useful functions that I find useful every now and then.


WinSCP - Linux has native support for SSH/SCP, unlike Windows.
What? No WinSCP??? No way!


SnagIt - Sorry... never heard of it
It's a useful screenshot generator, which allows you to screenshot "portions" of a screen.


Trellian SEO Toolkit - Sorry... never heard of it
Very popular SEO software.


Trellian Internet Studio - Sorry... never heard of it
More popular Software.


Paint Shop Pro - "Nice" graphic design apps are not in abundance, in the Linux world
No way!


Animation Shop - Same ... trial and error required!
No way!


Photo Shop - Same ... trial and error required!
Grrr..


Opera - Available on Linux
Great.


Firefox - Available on Linux
Great.


Internet Explorer - You're joking, right?
No, I use IE because mostly everyone else uses it. I need to make sure my websites function correctly in what most people use. It's not necessarily a personal decision, but a necessary one.


Search and Replace - Never heard of it, sorry.
Very popular, and I can't live without it.


Spybot Search And Destroy - That's a joke, too, I'd say.
So Ubuntu is completely safe from spyware, trojans and malware?


1stPage - Never heard of it, sorry.
It's not bad -- I use it sometimes -- it has it's uses.


Putty - Linux has native support for SSH/SCP
It better be good.


WebCEO - Never heard of it, sorry.
Very popular software.


PCTools Antivirus - (Another joke?)
Ubuntu is completely free of viruses?


PCTools Registry Cleaner - (Another joke?)
Ubuntu's registry is totally flawless?


Cloudmark - Never heard of it, sorry.
It is a plugin for Outlook Express which helps me remove the spam from the hundreds of emails I get each day. It is almost "totally" accurate and I cannot live without it.


RealPlayer - Many Linux apps play realmedia stuff.
Better be good.


Windows Media Player - Many Linux apps play wmv/wma/asf stuff.
Great.


TopStocks Pro Charts - Never heard of it
It is software which allows me to monitor stocks. I love it. I hope there is a replacement.


Civ - Fine with Linux, afaik.
Hmm


Frontier - Fine with Linux, afaik.
Hmm


It seems as if most of the stuff you spent money on was ... well ... a waste, really, especially if you're planning on a switch to Linux -- with the exception of Photoshop, I'd say.

It all depends what your occupation is. I assure you that I do not spend money on anything I do not need, or want.


Gaim allows the use of text instant messaging for MSN, Yahoo, ICQ, and AIM.
Hmm.. yeah, like Trillian? I don't like them -- they never fully capture the full set of features and functions.


Thunderbird or Evolution easily replaces Outlook.
It would want to be good, and have good -- 99% accurate spam filters.


Skype has a Linux version.
Great -- Hope all the options are there.


The GIMP is a useful image editor that could replace Paint Shop Pro
I have used it. It's ok I suppose -- nothing great.


You probably won't be needing Spybot or PCTOols antivirus.
Ok -- That would be pretty good.


You can't/won't need to use PCTools Registry Cleaner
Great -- it annoys me.


Ubuntu comes with Firefox for the default Internet browser
Ok, not that I use it -- and I could make a 23,000 page thread on why, but that's a whole other story. I do have it though, and I write my websites to work in it.


Opera has a Linux version unless I am mistaken.
I only use it, because a few other people do. It's reasonably popular and I just run it to test my sites.


Gftp can be used for your ftp needs.
It would want to be REAL good, because I run about 50 websites and I FTP all day every day. It better have buttons and functions coming out of it's ears, like WinSCP has.


You can find codecs for most of those A/V files you have.
I remember when I had to download codecs for Windows Media Player -- Especially the avi files, it used to drive me INSANE! I am so glad that they finally got everything working, and I will never do anything that means I'll have to go back to searching for codecs every day. I'll hang myself first.


NVU is a useful web page editor
It had better be good. 99% of editors suck -- I've tried them all. HTML Kit is the BEST by FAR. 1stPage comes in second place.


Internet Explorer can be installed via a program called Wine.
Great. I need it.


You can try to run your games under Wine, but it takes a lot of time, and may not work at all.
Grrrr


Ah, so you are expecting a free open-source version of Windows XP without viruses or malware or security problems?
Well, um -- yes, I am actually. But I am not concerned with the cost. If someone could make a Windows XP "Compatible" OS without all the problems that I admit drive me insane every day, then I'll personally stand on top of mount Pinatubo -- with my pants down, with a sign saying: Download @...


btw, I dont think linux is for you if you aren't ready to drop most of your windows applications for linux alternatives. Try getting a good antivirus and using common security practices to avoid malware
I think you're right.


You were joking about waiting for releases right? It took what, 5 years for Evrsoft to update 1stPage.
Yeah, before XHTML, when I used to write in HTML 1stPage was the BEES KNEES. I loved it. But then time progressed and it started causing too many validation issues. That 5 years you're talking of caused me to move to HTML-Kit. Nevertheless, even though I now use HTML Kit, because it also allows me to code PHP -- I still open 1stPage now and then. The "old" version, because quite frankly, the new version sucks. Yeah, 1sPage has had its day.. but I still use it for some things.

I think I will install Ubuntu into a second machine. Obviously heaps of effort has been put into it, so Ubuntu likely has a good use somewhere. Maybe one day there will be a Windows virus so bad that it will literally murder every computer attached to the Internet? That would be a good time to have a different computer to hook up to -- even though the Internet would likely be crippled by that point.

I don't have much time for playing around with stuff, and I'd only be using it as a toy. But I am interested and intrigued. I am definitely going to install it and give it a go, but it might be a while before I have a working version, because I'd only have a couple of hours a week to play around with it.

As far as I can see right now, it might be a good setup to use for my more personal type things. Maybe I can use it for "play time", and maybe for online banking, communication, letters etc. Hmm.. but then again, I'd probably always be so busy on my Windows computer that I'd likely never actually get around to it.

I don't know. I am intrigued, so I'll give it a go. I really don't see any use for it personally, as anything else but a toy. But admittedly, my "life" revolves around online activity, and I work from home. So I am a tough customer. On the other hand, I don't think it would be a bad tool for an Internet beginner that just wants to view web pages and chat with their friends -- which must be what most people who use it are doing. I sincerely can't imagine anyone using Ubuntu as a standalone OS, while being able to do even half the things that their windows friends are doing without getting extremely frustrated.

MrLeN

xpod
September 10th, 2006, 11:38 PM
So if Ubuntu doesn't already have a big red button on the desktop saying: "LAUNCH WINDOWS", even if it is not used as an OS, but serves merely to allow me to communicate across both platforms -- then quite frankly, I can't see Ubuntu ever becoming more popular

MY big red button works fine and i can access "that" OS any time i want"

I only used I.E for a couple of weeks back in march before i had learned enough to get FF(same with OE and thunderbird)
Then i only continued to use windows for another 5 months before i learned enough to go see what else was available....That was 3 weeks ago.....and here i am.

I dont pertain to understand much of what i manage to do but i understand enough to KNOW that burning those ISO`s was probably the best thing i could ever have done for mine and my familys future with pc`s........

You seem like an intelligent man SO if a complete pc newcommer like moi has come to the conclusions i have come to in my short time doing ths stuff then surely you must realise these things too.I dont even understand just WHAT it is i realise but i know it makes sense whatever it is!!

Hope you eventually see the light comming through those dirty windows you`ve got.....;)

EDIT:

I don't know. I am intrigued, so I'll give it a go. I really don't see any use for it personally, as anything else but a toy. But admittedly, my "life" revolves around online activity, and I work from home. So I am a tough customer.

ALL the more reason to get ubunto on your pc and learn how to do stuff ASAP

MrLeN
September 10th, 2006, 11:44 PM
In all honesty, I can see Ubuntu being quite the choice for some one such as yourself and your family. Also, I am sure that in 5 years from now Ubuntu will be much more popular, and because you started with it -- you'll know your way around it very well and will have found a way to accomplish everything that you need.

The problem is that my life, income and online activities revolve so much around Windows, that I pretty much can't change -- even if I REALLY tried and even if I was willing to make huge sacrifices.

99% of my income relies on Windows based software. It's a shame -- because Windows really does drive me insane. I really hope that Ubuntu eventually becomes more of a Windows compatible alternative than a cold turkey windows replacement -- because if so, I can't see anyone here getting anywhere of true value.

MrLeN

toasted
September 10th, 2006, 11:48 PM
As a small web developer myself I can relate to your needs. So let me ask you a question...

Why do you want to use Linux?

IYY
September 10th, 2006, 11:52 PM
99% of my income relies on Windows based software. It's a shame -- because Windows really does drive me insane. I really hope that Ubuntu eventually becomes more of a Windows compatible alternative than a cold turkey windows replacement -- because if so, I can't see anyone here getting anywhere of true value.

This is not going to happen, because it's not Ubuntu's goal. Maybe you should get yourself a Mac. It has more Windows-like programs (IE, even) and can dual-boot very nicely.

Tomosaur
September 11th, 2006, 12:05 AM
Most of the MS Office style apps (Explorer / Word / Etc) have free equivalents which can even export to MS formats.

Linux has native support for SSH (and yes, it is good. Putty's SSH is basically just a clone of the native linux SSH). You will have no trouble with it.

Linux has no registry, so keeping it tidy isn't an issue. It has schemas which are similar to the registry, but they're not nearly as important or as extensive. Linux apps generally keep all of their settings in config files, most often stored in your /home/ directory as a hidden folder.

Linux does not suffer greatly from malware/viruses, but there is software available to help you combat them if you feel you absolutely need to. The likelihood of you getting anything bad is virtually nil, unless you go and install the virus yourself. The biggest danger to a linux system is you.

I personally don't like NVU, but there are many many people who absolutely love it. Even if it isn't for you, there's a bunch floating around to try out.

As for HTML-Kit - I don't know what that is, but any text editor is enough for HTML, and gedit has native html syntax highlighting built in. If you take the Kubuntu way, Kate is also very very good for HTML.

Codecs are generally sorted, but not distributed with Ubuntu for legal reasons. A script such as Automatix or EasyUbuntu will sort them all out for you, or you can just do what I did and get the essential codecs pack from the mplayer website.

Screenshots are a piece of cake, as is video screen-capturing (and yes, even in just a portion of the screen!). The GIMP allows you to acquire a screenshot of any window of your choosing, while xvidcap allows you to capture video.

Animation is possible in The GIMP, as is ordinary picture creation / editing. The default GUI for GIMP is generally irritating, awkward, and horrible, but I believe there is an alternative frontend for it called GimpShop, which does precisely what the name implies - makes it look like Photoshop.

Outlook Express: Evolution is the default email client, and I find it very feature-full and useful, but I am not a massive emailer, so I don't know whether it's right for you. There are many alternatives available though.


The rest of your stuff I either don't know enough about or the other guy has answered.

gn2
September 11th, 2006, 12:07 AM
Guess the older the dog the more new tricks they need to learn, and perhaps just can't be bothered?

Are there really any tasks that actually cannot be accomplished with a Linux PC?
Or just that the tasks can't be done in a familiar way with familiar software by well practised individuals who just haven't got the time or the motivation to learn changed ways?

Personally my motivation for starting Linux is not wanting to have to pay for another Microsoft OS when my current one is no longer supported.

UltraMathMan
September 11th, 2006, 12:07 AM
My Conclusion of Ubuntu as a User Candidate

So if Ubuntu doesn't already have a big red button on the desktop saying: "LAUNCH WINDOWS", even if it is not used as an OS, but serves merely to allow me to communicate across both platforms -- then quite frankly, I can't see Ubuntu ever becoming more popular. Ubuntu needs to battle with transition issues, and not just try to convert the world "cold turkey".

MrLeN

I have a blue button that launches windows, it's called VMware Server and I can run XP (and other OSs) virtually with it within Linux.

http://www.vmware.com/products/server/

Start with dual-booting, but keep in mind that Linux is not Windows and I don't think it ever will be. :)

xpod
September 11th, 2006, 12:08 AM
99% of my income relies on Windows based software. It's a shame -- because Windows really does drive me insane. I really hope that Ubuntu eventually becomes more of a Windows compatible alternative than a cold turkey windows replacement -- because if so, I can't see anyone here getting anywhere of true value.


I understand your position but theres nothing stopping you using an old machine you mentiond i think to put ubunto on and "start" learning....even if it is in what little time you might have spare.

Im quite sure that eventually ubunto or suchlike would start "saving "you time for the things you mention.
To expect to just move over and start using it for any buisness purposes is just not going to happen of course, but the quicker you get it on that old pc and start "playing" with it then the quicker you`ll learn what you need to do..to do what you want to do......

AND in five years time YOU could be on here explaining in your eloquent manner just why the confused i.t expert that has just posted should definetely at least start using the thing.:mrgreen:

EDIT:..im currently IN xp(dont laugh....it`s not funny;) ) and i dont get a zonealarm intrusion warning IN ubunto every 2 or 3 mins like i am now.

Drakkor
September 11th, 2006, 12:12 AM
You seem to have very rigid requirements and if Ubuntu doesn't do it for you, enjoy your Windows Vista OS,nobody's really twisting your arm to convert to Ubuntu, or are they ?? :p

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 12:24 AM
toasted,



As a small web developer myself I can relate to your needs. So let me ask you a question...

Why do you want to use Linux?


I don't necessarily want to use "Linux". I decided to take a look at Ubuntu because a programmer friend recommended it after I finished complaining that some idiot was trying to hack my computer. Also, Windows really does drive me insane. What I "want to use" is an OS that offers all the options, but doesn't attract 200,000 IDIOTS (cyber terrorists) that want to write viruses and trojans for. Also I am sick and tired of having to reinstall Windows after 6-12 months because it has become so unstable and sluggish that I literally want to set my hair on fire and punch myself in the face. Maybe such an OS will never happen; the closes things is probably Mac -- which I do sincerely admire.

IYY,


This is not going to happen, because it's not Ubuntu's goal. Maybe you should get yourself a Mac. It has more Windows-like programs (IE, even) and can dual-boot very nicely.

I know, the first thing I did was to look up Ubuntu's aims and goals. Although they are admirable -- I genuinely don't see them as being achievable to the point where Ubuntu can make a true difference.

Tomosaur,

Thanks mate -- sounds good.

Gn2,


Guess the older the dog the more new tricks they need to learn, and perhaps just can't be bothered?

To the contrary, I am spending a great deal of time asking questions and genuinely and sincerely considering Ubuntu. I do not have a problem with learning. I have a problem with losing options. It's not new tricks I am afraid of learning, but old tricks I am afraid of losing.


Are there really any tasks that actually cannot be accomplished with a Linux PC?

As far as I can see, yes. There are many. But it's not the "task" itself, it's also the ease of use and simplicity that needs to be accounted for.


Personally my motivation for starting Linux is not wanting to have to pay for another Microsoft OS when my current one is no longer supported.

That's what license upgrades for -- and any investment in progress is worth it in my mind. Although, it's arguable that Microsoft is making much progress.

xpod,


I understand your position but theres nothing stopping you using an old machine you mentiond i think to put ubunto on and "start" learning....even if it is in what little time you might have spare.

Yes mate, I think I will. I have no gripe with at least giving it a shot. Who knows, I may end up loving it -- and I would be a great Ubuntu ambassador :)


Im quite sure that eventually ubunto or suchlike would start "saving "you time for the things you mention.
To expect to just move over and start using it for any business purposes is just not going to happen of course, but the quicker you get it on that old pc and start "playing" with it then the quicker you`ll learn what you need to do..to do what you want to do......

I'll give it an honest, sincere and genuine go -- but in all honestly, my expectations are pretty low.


AND in five years time YOU could be on here explaining in your eloquent manner just why the confused i.t expert that has just posted should definetely at least start using the thing

That would be nice -- honestly.

Drakkor,


You seem to have very rigid requirements and if Ubuntu doesn't do it for you, enjoy your Windows Vista OS,nobody's really twisting your arm to convert to Ubuntu, or are they ??

My personal requirements are not rigid. All I really want to do is hang out online and play Civ. But 90% of my time is spent earning money to pay for the ability to do that. I have to take into account what everyone is using, what's sellable, what the latest product is, what the newest downloads is -- and there's BILLIONS to be made online. If I turn my Windows PC off and start using a free OS which supports free software and all the stuff that people are "paying" for wont run on it, then how will I pay my bills? I do see a use for Ubuntu for developers that spend their time working on web based applications and systems -- because that way, their income is not affected by what other people are using. And the fact of the matter is that most people are using and paying for windows and they're using and paying fro windows applications. If I want to keep my income -- I need to remain on that ship. My needs have very little to do with rigid requirements, but have more to do with feasibility.

MrLeN

Tomosaur
September 11th, 2006, 12:29 AM
Oh, freeCiv is available for Linux. I have never liked Civilisation, but I've heard it does a good job.

Penzao
September 11th, 2006, 12:32 AM
The author is right though. Ubuntu is a great OS but i really dont see it ever competing with windows. Mostly because:

Ubuntu needs somthing like the .exe file, where all u have to do is run it and the program installs instead of having to go through command line installing individual pieces. I know it has a package manager but if the app isnt in the package manager it is a serious pain to install.

Ubuntu needs more in the way mod media. iTunes is a must and they need something similar to Windows Meida center where u can watch tv, video, music etc without having codec issues or switching applications.

You need to be able to edit your windows files form Ubuntu. This is the biggest thing, i must be able to access and edit my windows files and vis-versa if im going to use ubuntu regularly.

Games, not sure if there is much you guys can do in this department but as long as i play any sort of PC games, windows is never comming of my computer.

Ubuntu probiable is a "better" operating system than windows, but all my games run on windows and not ubuntu. My school uses windows and not ubutnu and i can watch TV in windows and now ubuntu. If ubuntu wants to get bigger they must make it more compatiable with windows. Because right now it is basicly chose ubuntu or windows and windows has more going for it.

Like the author said Ubuntu is more of a toy project that i use for writing programs and cmpiling instead of my main operating system.

Solver
September 11th, 2006, 12:38 AM
MrLen,

There's an excellent piece called "Linux is not Windows" (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm), and it makes a great point - Linux just isn't Windows without the spyware. It's a whole different thing for better or worse. A few specific points:


I know, the first thing I did was to look up Ubuntu's aims and goals. Although they are admirable -- I genuinely don't see them as being achievable to the point where Ubuntu can make a true difference.

I think you'll find yourself wrong here. 6 years ago, using Linux was quite a challenge unless you were a techhead. Right now, many people are using Ubuntu as a quite simple desktop operating system. If Linux keeps improving at the same speed (which it certainly will), you'll see more and more goals accomplished.


As far as I can see, yes. There are many. But it's not the "task" itself, it's also the ease of use and simplicity that needs to be accounted for.

It's my honest opinion that the current version of Ubuntu is easier to use than Windows XP. Once you have Ubuntu and XP properly set up, Ubuntu is easier - many will agree. An important thing is that, oftentimes, "different" seems to be "difficult". And yes, it sure takes some time to get used to Linux.

If you do start moving to Ubuntu... you'll likely want to try some replacement programs nonetheless. In some situations, you may find that the Linux replacements are better. If you want to run exactly programs X, Y and Z on Linux, that's not going to work for you comfortably. if you're willing to run programs X and Y, but try something different instead of Z, it might just work.

You're a web designer... I think that you can do everything you want to, after going through a learning curve. You can also run Windows programs in Linux through Wine, as has been previously said, but much of the time, it's simply better to take a Linux-native alternative.

Finally, about Civ. I know more than a few things about Civ (Civ4 particularly), and I can say Civ4 on Linux is both tricky and possible. You can run Civ4 on Linux, absolutely. It may, though, involve some amount of tinkering. Personally, I find that the best solution is still a dual-boot system, where you boot to Windows to play games. If you do nothing else on Windows, it will be in better shape and won't be nearly as much of a pain.

Tomosaur
September 11th, 2006, 12:40 AM
There is a lot of debate about whether installing from an executable is a good idea. They are, after all, one of the easiest ways to become infected by viruses etc. The package system is occasionally cumbersome, and definately needs refining, but I prefer building from source when I can.

xpod
September 11th, 2006, 12:42 AM
because a programmer friend recommended it

Do you trust your friends.....If trust your friends(programmers im not so sure about;) )then take his advice...im sure you`ll thank him one day.......one day "soon" at that

Solver
September 11th, 2006, 12:46 AM
Ubuntu needs somthing like the .exe file, where all u have to do is run it and the program installs instead of having to go through command line installing individual pieces. I know it has a package manager but if the app isnt in the package manager it is a serious pain to install.

Disagreed. If the application is in the repositories (and many are), installing is much easier than anything on Windows. If it's not, you go find a file and download it, after which you can often just run it, like on Windows. DEB files work fine like that, I've myself installed enough applications that way.


Ubuntu needs more in the way mod media. iTunes is a must and they need something similar to Windows Meida center where u can watch tv, video, music etc without having codec issues or switching applications.

This is improving rapidly. Automatix takes care of the codecs, in fact, I only ever need to install them once on Ubuntu. Players such as Mplayer, Listen or amarok are very good.


You need to be able to edit your windows files form Ubuntu. This is the biggest thing, i must be able to access and edit my windows files and vis-versa if im going to use ubuntu regularly.

The Linux NTFS driver, since recently, has better write support. I've also written to Windows partitions from Knoppix. It's still in the process of getting there, but looks like we'll have a great NTFS driver soon. Besides, you can always create a shared FAT32 partition, if you need to.


Games, not sure if there is much you guys can do in this department but as long as i play any sort of PC games, windows is never comming of my computer.

This is the one area where I do not see Linux getting close to Windows in the foreseeable future. 99% of games are released for Windows only, maybe with Mac versions, but not Linux. Again, this has gotten much better recently, since Cedega allows you to run many games rather well on Linux, but yeah, Windows will remain in the lead here for a long time. Maybe if Linux gains a much bigger share of the desktop market, game developers will start releasing Linux native versions.

toasted
September 11th, 2006, 12:54 AM
toasted,



I don't necessarily want to use "Linux". I decided to take a look at Ubuntu because a programmer friend recommended it after I finished complaining that some idiot was trying to hack my computer. Also, Windows really does drive me insane. What I "want to use" is an OS that offers all the options, but doesn't attract 200,000 IDIOTS (cyber terrorists) that want to write viruses and trojans for. Also I am sick and tired of having to reinstall Windows after 6-12 months because it has become so unstable and sluggish that I literally want to set my hair on fire and punch myself in the face. Maybe such an OS will never happen; the closes things is probably Mac -- which I do sincerely admire.


MrLeN

I don't understand the troubles people have with Windows. If a person would apply themselves to XP or 2000 they could keep it running well and stable too. I have a 2000 server that only gets rebooted when I think of it and thats only every couple of months Id say apart from auto updates.
XP always treated me well too but I learned about it and worked on it. Just like anything else... you get out of it what you put into it. It's the concept of Windows that pushes me away.

None the less. Linux could do all you want it to. Well most of it anyway. The only way you will ever really know it to use it. To use it you will have to learn it. An open mind is the first requirement you will need to acquire. Linux, regardless of the flavor, is not Windows. It never claimed to be and it never will be. Linux cannot be better than Windows or any other OS and remain exactly the same. If it were the same it would be equal not better.

Obviously if its not the same then you will have to learn the differences, the sweetspots, the nuances. This is half the fun! Dont expect it to happen overnight. Ease into it and take one thing at a time...figure it out and move on to the next. It wont be long and the the shutter is wide open and the big picture rolls in.... Trust me I did the learning and frustration thing too.

Whatever you decide... best of luck. I hope you find what you are looking for :)

H.E. Pennypacker
September 11th, 2006, 01:07 AM
MrLen, my honest advice to you is to NOT switch to Linux. I use Linux (Ubuntu) 99% of the time, and I only boot Windows for maintenance (deleting Windows files).

But then again, I don't use my computer to make money, right? Because you use your computer for work, you can't really afford to switch, because Linux is not really used that much by professionals (although many Fortune 500 companies use Linux).

Besides, I'd feel you'd be switching to Linux for the wrong reasons. I recommend Linux first and foremost to spread the use of open source software, not because someone is tired of using Windows.
I'd rather have you use Windows and not criticise Linux than you use Linux and criticise it because its not exactly like Windows.

I'd recommend you play around with it. Get your feet into the water, but DO NOT SWITCH COMPLETELY until you are definitely sure you are ready for it.

Last, I can tell you Ubuntu beats the performance of Windows ANY DAY. Windows was so slow, and I don't even have a single first on the Windows partition. I swear there Windows is one big bug. Ubuntu is much better when it comes to performance, and when is the last time I ran a virus/spyware scan? NEVER! LOL ...This I love the most! Not worrying every minute about who may be trying to attack me!

MarkSheely
September 11th, 2006, 01:19 AM
There is a version of html-kit for linux here:

http://www.html-kit.com/docs/hkt/linux/

Whether or not it has all the same features the windows version has, I'm not sure.

I would like to add my voice to the group encouraging you to try Ubuntu on your spare computer. It should be a good experience -

--Mark

MrLeN
September 11th, 2006, 01:22 AM
toasted,


I don't understand the troubles people have with Windows. If a person would apply themselves to XP or 2000 they could keep it running well and stable too. I have a 2000 server that only gets rebooted when I think of it and thats only every couple of months Id say apart from auto updates.
SP always treated me well too but I learned about it and worked on it. Just like anything else... you get out of it what you put into it. It's the concept of Windows that pushes me away.

MY computer is literally running and working 24/7. I am pushing it a further 12-16 hours a day, between 5 and 7 days a week. I have many applications running, almost always simultaneously. Therefore, my computer starts having coronaries earlier than the average user. Nevertheless, I have registry cleaners, antivirus programs, spyware destroyers -- you name it. I am at constant warfare. The thing that annoys me most is the "constant" updating of all these programs, including windows itself -- and the fact that I am often pushing my PC to its limits already and then some popup appears and starts downloading files .. and the computer becomes fragmented and as time passes, it simply starts blacking out. I expect Windows to run 100% not just a month after it has been installed, but even 5 years later, without having to reinstall it. Especially since I invest so much time and effort into combating the problems that Microsoft has not been able to resolve. But, I do believe Microsoft will eventually work it all out. Nevertheless, I get annoyed daily by such problems and situations.


None the less. Linux could do all you want it to. Well most of it anyway. The only way you will ever really know it to use it. To use it you will have to learn it. An open mind is the first requirement you will need to acquire. Linux, regardless of the flavor, is not Windows. It never claimed to be and it never will be. Linux cannot be better than Windows or any other OS and remain exactly the same. If it were the same it would be equal not better.

Mate, I have already established that Linux simply cannot do all I want to do, and certainly not even most of it. At best, Linux can do "some" of it, and even then I believe that those few things would cause me more stress and grief than what Windows is currently causing me. I obviously have an open mind, or I would not have created these two threads, and I would not be typing this response right now. I don't see the point with your analogies about flavor and that Linux is not Windows etc. It goes without saying that Linux is not Windows, but the fact of the matter is that practically ALL commercial software is written for Windows -- therefore, any OS that does not seek at least a minimum level of compatibility barely deserves the title of "Operating System".


Obviously if its not the same then you will have to learn the differences, the sweetspots, the nuances. This is half the fun! Dont expect it to happen overnight. Ease into it and take one thing at a time...figure it out and move on to the next. It wont be long and the the shutter is wide open and the big picture rolls in.... Trust me I did the learning and frustration thing too.

No, I do not have to learn the differences, and I do not consider searching for sweetsspots and nuances as fun. I am more than willing to invest a bit of time into learning how Ubuntu works, but saying: "Don't expect it to happen overnight. Ease into it and take one thing at a time...figure it out and move on to the next" is a huge negative. People don't want to hear this. It is not a positive assertion to be making.

H.E. Pennypacker,


MrLen, my honest advice to you is to NOT switch to Linux. I use Linux (Ubuntu) 99% of the time, and I only boot Windows for maintenance (deleting Windows files).

I have already established that it is not possible to "switch", but I am still considering that Ubuntu may have it's uses.


But then again, I don't use my computer to make money, right? Because you use your computer for work, you can't really afford to switch, because Linux is not really used that much by professionals (although many Fortune 500 companies use Linux).

Yes, I need a Windows environment to make money. However, I am still willing to install Ubuntu onto a second machine to see for myself what really can and can't be done with it. By the way, I do use Linux servers -- and I am at least familiar with the configuration of them. So, if Ubuntu as an OS is remotely similar in nature, then I probably wont have too much trouble.


Besides, I'd feel you'd be switching to Linux for the wrong reasons.

I wont be "switching". But I am still interested in the exploration of it's possible uses -- which as far as I can see right now seem to me quite limited.


I recommend Linux first and foremost to spread the use of open source software, not because someone is tired of using Windows.

That's great -- because by doing this, you'll be saving Windows users time.


I'd rather have you use Windows and not criticise Linux than you use Linux and criticise it because its not exactly like Windows.

I will never criticise "Linux" -- because it's an extremely useful addition to the Internet, and a LOT of money is being made via Linux servers -- including my own.


I'd recommend you play around with it. Get your feet into the water, but DO NOT SWITCH COMPLETELY until you are definitely sure you are ready for it.

Sounds like a plan.


Last, I can tell you Ubuntu beats the performance of Windows ANY DAY. Windows was so slow, and I don't even have a single first on the Windows partition.

This sound fantastic. It would be refreshing to sit at the helm of a fast running OS. I'd probably install it and run Ubuntu every now and then, just to lick the screen and fantasize about what life online "could" be like.


I swear there Windows is one big bug.

LOL -- I wont argue.


Ubuntu is much better when it comes to performance, and when is the last time I ran a virus/spyware scan? NEVER! LOL ...This I love the most! Not worrying every minute about who may be trying to attack me!

Great!

MarkSheely,


There is a version of html-kit for linux here:

Fantastic! That'd be a great start.

MrLeN

xpod
September 11th, 2006, 01:40 AM
Therefore, my computer starts having coronaries earlier than the average user

Wanna bet...............haha.We bought a second hand(unused) m.e 6 months ago that died two weeks after i got my hands on it so we got an old XP from family which i used to help fix the m.e.
No sooner was that fixed then i killed the XP.Then fixed it,then killed it,then killed the m.e then fixed them both THEN i found this great "toy" and set up a dualboot with XP......And promptly broke the two of them:twisted: .

Thats not to mention our Kubunto sys that i broke trying to run Xgl or whatever it was called.There all fixed now but im getting bored so i might just kill that useless m.e off once and for all and see what i can put on that........to brake no doubt:mrgreen:

The more i brake them.....the more i seem to learn....

And i do this recent"breaking" safe in the knowlage that there`s a bunch of people on here that will help me fix my mess once i`ve made it.Some have even went above and beyond the call of duty (you know who you are)and i never got service like THAT antwhere else.

Fire that old banger up put Ubu on it and have a wee break from that tedium you seem caught up in :mrgreen: