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Brunellus
August 9th, 2006, 09:22 PM
A cursory search of the OP's post history does not reveal too many posts asking for help. Many posts are complaints and assertions that one fault or another is "...why linux is going to take a lot of work to even be able to fully use it. (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1338554#post1338554)"

If this is "asking for help," it's a lousy way to do it.

There are some people who hang out on these forums (or the IRC channels) to give support for ubuntu. They do this not because they are paid to do so--they do it of their own free will. Many of them are happy to help. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of those who do.

I'd also like to remind frustrated users that the people reading these forums--even the creepy ones who chime in with cryptic commands like $sudo vim /etc/apt/sources.list -- are human beings. As human beings, we certainly don't like to be bullied, hectored, or otherwise abused.

If you have a question--ASK IT. If you have a problem, take a deep breath, count to ten, and post about it. But talk about your SPECIFIC problem. Don't turn a technical issue into a general screed about "Linux," because:

1) We've heard 'em all before, and the millionth "Linux is not ready" thread is as tiresome as the 999,999th.

2) The "resident" members of this community actually happen to like this operating system a lot. So you get no points for insulting their preferred environment and then demanding that they help you.

If we know of a solution, we'll suggest it. If we don't know of a solution, we'll probably stay silent. If it seems to you that we're ignoring you, it's not because we have some sort of animus against you--it's probably because we either didn't understand your question, or frankly don't know of an answer.

If, at the end of it all, the only viable solution for you is to use some other software, by all means do what works. We are not interested in telling anybody to sacrifice a running system in the name of some abstract principle--there are other people (http://www.gnu.org/) to do that.

All we ask in return is a little consideration, maybe a little humanity.

aysiu
August 9th, 2006, 09:23 PM
If you want attention, this thread is a prime example of how to get it.

A serial killer makes the news.
A car accident draws all the rubberneckers.
A "goodbye" thread becomes popular on the forums.

EdThaSlayer
August 9th, 2006, 09:24 PM
Try again when the next version of Ubuntu comes out.

Dragonbite
August 9th, 2006, 09:34 PM
Heck, if the problem is hardware then maybe try another distro which may work better.

Ubuntu doesn't like my older Sony, but CentOS worked without a hitch.

Breezy worked better with my system then Dapper, though both have a similar video playback problem.

Sometimes you're the windshield.. sometimes you're the bug!

patrick295767
August 9th, 2006, 09:37 PM
I'm tired of getting out of Ubuntu to play my games, which run dog slow under Wine. They also run slow with windows through vmware. I'm tired of logging out of Ubuntu to go use Premiere Pro. I'm tired of my Surround Sound not working. I'm tired of feeling stuck with a bunch of half assed bunch of applications in Ubuntu. Some are well done, Firefox, Audacity, but come on compare iTunes to gtkpod. No contest. I think Ubuntu will be ready for me, just not now. I am going to seed Ubuntu and Kubuntu Dapper on bittorent, but that's all the support I can offer. With that said good bye Ubuntu, but I will check back when my problems are resolved.


You are not too far with gaming. it's not easy & too slow. Windoze is needed in dual booting.

There is no perfect OS anyhow !
Pitty you resign... i am too getting peaced with gaming & loosing time each time with winex or cedega.

Mac OS X = expensive
Linux = free
Windoze = hopeless

Go and make a choice there ?

Cheers

patrick295767
August 9th, 2006, 09:39 PM
You believe in long goodbyes.


Later dude.

lol

patrick295767
August 9th, 2006, 09:44 PM
Mmmmhh, tkay: I don't really think windows (and I come from it) it's better than Linux. I have a friend working on Unix machine, and believe me: he can do everything, but are about 20 years of experience!
I think that Linux, coming from Unix, should be better and for make it better we all should slow down a little. In this way it's possible having care of inside software (the OS in itself) and find more bugs to correct.

Do you really think that's the experience the problem. How about gaming ?
That's not easy life with daily new games released for windoze only

I wish the best for the future of Linux !

mscman
August 9th, 2006, 10:02 PM
Actually I am probably gonna still leave I just find it funny how people made false accusations of how I supposedly hate Windows. Other claims of me not wanting to learn, i'm sorry but if the hardware won't work i'm not going to use it. Another thing is I expected everyone to be like "that's cool see you when it gets better" but no had to respond in negative ways. Honestly this forum blows, if I do go back to linux i'm heading to linuxquestions.org. When I asked for help people tried to help within the hour, here I waited 3 days to get a "i'm having the same problem, no fix yet." Atleast on linuxquestions they attempted to help. With that said good bye for real.
The reason you probably didn't get the results you wanted from this post was because you acted like a jackass. Being rude to everyone that attempts to help you is a bad idea. I'm sorry you didn't seem to get the help you wanted, but perhaps you could have tried harder to find the solution. In the original post you barely even mentioned your speaker problems, choosing instead to bash the applications written for Linux.

That being said, Windows probably is for you. If you like computer gaming, Windows is a good platform because of popularity. If you like real work, get a Mac. If you can't afford a Mac, you use Linux ;)

(Please note that the Mac/Linux generalization is a joke only. I know that many people on these forums use Linux by choice, and despise Apple.)

Cariboo1938
August 10th, 2006, 12:59 AM
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
You know, I can understand conanm4's frustration...I'm a newcomer to Linux since about 2 years....I desperately want to get out of the Microsoft grip.... I'm an average computer user (Text,Photo,Music,Movies) nothing extra special... I have fairly new equipment (AMD64,2x80GB hd, 500MB ram...). I tried Debian pure, Knoppix, Libranet and now Ubuntu and all had this in common:
--NO modem identification (56k PCI hardware modem from Gnet)
--NO dial-up connection installed
--NO udftool for packet writing working to use CD-R/W's as large floppy disk
--NO DVD player for encrypted movie DVDs
For all distros it took me days and nights to get at least connected to the Internet, in Ubuntu 'kppp' is still not working (I use wvdial with 'pon/poff'). Also no way to watch a movie, much less to use my CD-R/W as a large floppy. In my opinion these features are basic and nobody living in the 21st century using Linux should have to struggle with them.

BTW, there is a great community behind Ubuntu and I got lots of help already which I highly, highly appreciated!! The only thing I want to say is, there is lots of time and energy wasted for thousands of people all having similar problems with basic issues (mostly not known in the Windows world).

I removed kppp and installed gnome-ppp. It's simple in the graphics, but it works great, is easy to set up, it is fast and reliable...That's all I wished to have.

cstudent
August 10th, 2006, 01:06 AM
For an OS that started out pretty much as a school project and has become largely what it is due to volunteer efforts. I think it's pretty amazing how far Linux has come in the dozen or so years it has been around. MS has been around twice as long and for years where pretty much the only guys on the playing field. I think hardware vendors are starting to pay attention and I have no doubt they will eventually realize there is a market for developing for Linux systems.

bluntu
August 10th, 2006, 01:20 AM
Ya, I feel your pain (thread starter).

I almost say the same thing when things didn't go to well but I never give up on things and I know that switching to LINUX will not be easy. Now I'm loving it and can't think of a reason to go back to Windows. Now that you're planning to leave here's a news for you: http://news.com.com/Homeland+Security+Lock+up+your+Windows/2100-7348_3-6103805.html?tag=nefd.top

B3Nji
August 10th, 2006, 05:35 PM
I have been using ubuntu since breezy, and transferred to dapper.

But I have now gone back to windows, the reason being I simply cant be bothered to go all around the houses to do simple things ANYMORE!
I am a graphics guy, I loved my Photoshop and flash mx when I was on windows. They don't work on Linux.. or rather they do if you are prepared to spend half an hour copying commands and downloading extra packages etc.. etc..

For Linux to become the one and only desktop things need to be simple. More programs need to be developed to do the simple things like automatix! There are programs out there that do simplify but you have to spend hours googling for them.

Ubuntu has a good few years ahead of it to properly compete with windows at the moment.

But for me its nice "SIMPLE" windows, if I want to install something I just click "next". If I want to install a new font I simple open the font folder and drag a newun it it!

Btw I am writing this email on dapper, my dads laptop, I persuaded him to change, he has no problems with it because he just surfs the net and sends emails.. oh and uses his digicam on it. There arae some people it is good for. Same for my sister.

Anybody would like to have a go at my points feel free :P

kabus
August 10th, 2006, 05:45 PM
But I have now gone back to windows, the reason being I simply cant be bothered to go all around the houses to do simple things ANYMORE!


Good for you.



For Linux to become the one and only desktop

Let's hope that never happens.

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 05:46 PM
Ubuntu is not all of Linux. It is one version of Linux. You don't need Automatix on Mepis or Blag, for example.

You don't have to fiddle with settings on a System 76 computer (http://www.system76.com).

Read the last link in my sig.

Vlatko
August 10th, 2006, 05:47 PM
what i don't understand is... why does everyone that is returning to windows have to open his own thread?

i'm still dual-booting both. i find both to be good for its own particular things. if you need photoshop and flash mx just run it in windows and save yourself trouble.

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 05:54 PM
what i don't understand is... why does everyone that is returning to windows have to open his own thread? I've added this thread to the list (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243).

Redcard
August 10th, 2006, 05:59 PM
So how much did you pay for that Flash MX and Photoshop?

MetalMusicAddict
August 10th, 2006, 06:00 PM
what i don't understand is... why does everyone that is returning to windows have to open his own thread?
I ask this question every time and the OP never responds.

If windows fits you better use it. Simple.

The abundance of these threads is starting to annoy me. I could see if usefull info came from them but there never is any. Just people that havnt really contributed anything with low post counts (isnt always a big thing) bitchin'.

Vlatko
August 10th, 2006, 06:02 PM
I've added this thread to the list (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243).
lol. :D

ComplexNumber
August 10th, 2006, 06:07 PM
I ask this question every time and the OP never responds. likewise when someone asks:

So how much did you pay for that Flash MX and Photoshop? :p

its always funny reading these threads because they almost invariably end up returning to linux once they re-aquaint themselves with the ways of microsoft.

MetalMusicAddict
August 10th, 2006, 06:21 PM
I've added this thread to the list (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243).

Oh crap! I missed this before. "The List". Awesome.

Adamant1988
August 10th, 2006, 06:22 PM
I'm really trying to not be rude here, but I think it's a testament to the common sense of people making these threads when they keep posting them in the testimonials section.

The description of this forum pretty clearly states this is for sucess stories. So, if you're not able to figure out something as complex as the forum hierarchy then maybe windows IS for you.

With that said:

Your main points seem to be program availability and installation. I agree this is a trouble area if you are stuck on the mentality that everything has to be installed from an independant website. But if you adjust to the (far better and safer) way of using repos, then you'll have no problems at all with the structure.

If your goal is to run windows programs, then why run linux at all? That's kind of off-base thinking if you ask me. I love photoshop too, but I decided keeping my credit card number and other sensitive information private were more important than that when there is a 'decent' free replacement for it.

Also if you want the 'easiest desktop linux' use Linspire... everything works ootb (except DVD playing, you have to purchase that), even wireless. The only thing you have to do is CNR programs and use them, but you should be willing to pay for that, there's a reason it's so easy.

another point: There should not EVER be a 'one and only desktop'. Monopolies are bad, it doesn't matter who is creating the monopoly, would it be a BETTER monopoly if Linux were on top... maybe, but that certainly doesn't make it good. Users need to be given a choice, choice is most important.

So, when you come back to Ubuntu (or another linux distro) and leave again, just remember to post your "I'm leaving because XYG doesn't work the same as windows" message in the appropriate forum.

jetblack
August 10th, 2006, 06:23 PM
You don't have to fiddle with settings on a System 76 computer (http://www.system76.com).

Wow, those Koala Minis look great. I don't suppose you know where a person could get his hands on one of the cases?

mycelo
August 10th, 2006, 08:09 PM
I just read an INQ's article (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33601) leading to this rant (http://www.leenooks.com/scottnuddsrant) which, although hateful, seems to bring some good points. How much is that true?

Please, this is not trolling at all, I just thought it could be a good reading for this community. Sorry if already posted, I used the search.

mycelo

[EDIT] The article was into a wiki page and was heavily adulterated and vandalized. Therefore I pasted it here (http://pastebin.ca/126639).

bruce89
August 10th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Nice choice of words in the second paragraph.

Brunellus
August 10th, 2006, 08:17 PM
don't be a menace 2 ubuntu while drinkin ur juice n da hood.

same old same old.

I am now of the position that "switching" or "penetration" or whatever anybody wants outside serverland is *irrelevant*.

hizaguchi
August 10th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Woah, that might be the dumbest article I've ever read. The highlights, of course, being the idea that people maintaining servers aren't doing "real work" and that OSX is superior to Linux/Unix/BSD because its design is fundamentally better.

I get the impression this guy has never used a Mac, and especially not Linux.

win_zik
August 10th, 2006, 08:32 PM
Maybe someone should send a note to Scott, telling him that if you are about to start a childish rant, at least try to get some basic facts straight.

Otherwise people will just laugh you off.

May I ask why you felt the need to post this diatribe?

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 08:34 PM
same old same old. I added it to the list (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1276564).

ComplexNumber
August 10th, 2006, 08:35 PM
I just read an INQ's article (http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=33601) leading to this rant (http://www.leenooks.com/scottnuddsrant) which, although hateful, seems to bring some good points. How much is that true?

Please, this is not trolling at all, I just thought it could be a good reading for this community. Sorry if already posted, I used the search.

mycelo
it doesn't mean to say that he believes what he says. similarly to a presenter on a talk show radio station, many blog-types just seem to try to be deliberately controversial.

kabus
August 10th, 2006, 08:38 PM
The server market is different because the server market is maintained by trained experts who largely enjoy the challenge of dealing with complexity. The desktop market, on the other hand, consists of people trying to get real work done.

Funny stuff.

Mtnear
August 10th, 2006, 08:39 PM
Provided Vista is a success - and this is a legitimate question - Linux has no hope of challenging Microsoft on the desktop for the forseeable future. Linux will therefore remain a small player in a market dominated by Microsoft operating systems. At this point Linux can provide no serious challenge to windows.
I don't understand this philosophy at all. Windows has improved upon itself from 3.1 through XP, and during that same time Linux has improved and gained desktop users and attention right beside it. Why would the next version of Windows suddenly change this trend?

nalmeth
August 10th, 2006, 08:42 PM
Garbage

98% of the market hasn't rejected linux. At least %80 have never even heard of linux.

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 08:46 PM
People should just read the article I wrote about the Linux desktop. I tried to make it as comprehensive and balanced as possible:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

Bezmotivnik
August 10th, 2006, 08:52 PM
"purposely cryptic, puerile, and adolescent."

Yeah, I think you could say that. ;-) And don't forget to include in that menagerie the zealots, fanboys and crypto-religious cultic dingbats that are attracted to the smell of Linux and Open Source. It really screws up the neighborhood.

Linux seems to be saddled with developers too immature to make it in the real pro world, and it definitely shows. Almost all the really good Linux stuff I see is pro-built by major corporations by real programmers working for real wages with, presumably, real project management.

I'm a big fan of Linux for servers and industrial embedded applications, but if anything, I think the rest of the article is understated.

At the end of the day, it's still all about money, it always will be about money and Linux just doesn't have any to speak of. When someone throws a huge amount of money at desktop Linux -- and I'm talking multiple billions -- it'll pull up its socks, get some heavy talent and start getting real. In the meantime, it's a hobbyist desktop OS for buffs and eccentrics with lots of extra time on their hands. Yes, that includes me. ;)

kabus
August 10th, 2006, 08:57 PM
Linux seems to be saddled with developers too immature to make it in the real pro world, and it definitely shows.

Nice bait, but I think I'll pass.

Brunellus
August 10th, 2006, 08:58 PM
so IBM doesn't put real money into Linux.

Great.

The difference is that Linux and the free software community will keep on trucking regardless of the funding (or lack thereof). The pace of change will vary (witness the acceleration in Debian's release/testing cycle once the Debian Daughters, including Ubuntu, started coming on stream), but change will continue.

The economics of free software development will eventually make progress inevitable. If it's not linux, it'll be something else.

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 08:59 PM
Did Scott Nudd say it was about money? I think he said the GUI was designed badly or some such nonsense.

You're absolutely right--it's about money. Once Dell thinks it's worthwhile (i.e., they will make and not lose money on it) to preinstall Linux desktops, they will. Their little one-off with the French Mandriva-preloaded laptop available only to students last year doesn't count.

Tomosaur
August 10th, 2006, 09:13 PM
Let's see the re-write of that article when he has to buy a brand new PC to get Vista running badly :)

Bezmotivnik
August 10th, 2006, 09:13 PM
so IBM doesn't put real money into Linux.

IBM claims that they've spent a billion bucks on Linux, but none of it seems to have translated to anything substantive for desktop users. From what I understand, it mostly went into the more traditional Linux strongpoint stuff -- servers, industrial, etc.

I saw an article the other day claiming that Microsoft spends around five billion dollars a year just on Windows development. That's not counting all the dough for MS apps and multiples of that spent by third-party software developers on apps for the Windows platform.

Yeah, that article claiming that trillions of dollars have been spent developing Windows and third-party stuff over the years doesn't seem to be exaggerating.

Seriously, how can desktop Linux compete with that?

By gratuitously and ceaselessly slandering Gates really, really hard in Linux fora? :confused:

Tortanick
August 10th, 2006, 09:19 PM
Read any of those linux is a forign anti-microsoft conspiricy and this seems sane.

nalmeth
August 10th, 2006, 10:13 PM
Microsoft spends around five billion dollars a year just on Windows development.
And they don't allow outside developers to aid them with bug reports and security fixes. They have to spend that much to keep the development model alive. Is that a sign of a sustainable model?

Don't they spend even more on legal cases trying to prove their code is their own? :p

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 10:17 PM
Like Nalmeth, I'm a bit skeptical about how much of Microsoft's money goes into actual application development. There's a lot to running a company like that--human resources, facilities, schmoozing dinners and expense accounts, other promotional events, advertising, branding, operations (inter-office mail and photocopies)...

Just look at how much has been done for Windows XP and Internet Explorer 6 since those two were released...

That assumption that all money leads toward the direct end-user experience is naive and reminds me of discussions my buddies from college used to have about how much money they were "wasting" by skipping class ("Oh, with the amount we're spending on tuition, each class is worth X dollars...").

Little did we think about how much of that money went into soliciting alumni for funds, mailing out catalogs to prospective students, buying paperclips for the president's office, mowing the lawns in front of buildings, paying legal fees for lawsuits against the college, etc.

Bezmotivnik
August 10th, 2006, 11:38 PM
Like Nalmeth, I'm a bit skeptical about how much of Microsoft's money goes into actual application development. There's a lot to running a company like that--human resources, facilities, schmoozing dinners and expense accounts, other promotional events, advertising, branding, operations (inter-office mail and photocopies)...
Oh, I'm certain! Gold toothpicks for the focus groups, "team-building" programmer trips to Antarctica, custom emu-skin cowboy boots with "MS" in rhinestones for the managers, programmer break lounges with wall murals of Darth Vader riding a unicorn, etc.

The point is that that is what Microsoft is claiming they spend on development and not marketing and the rest of the money furnaces. Lord knows what they claim they spend on marketing, etc. The point is that they have virtually unlimited rivers of money and can spend it lavishly (and probably foolishly) on their development projects.


That assumption that all money leads toward the direct end-user experience is naive

Nobody said that, I don't think. I certainly didn't.

But I'll tell you what:

LACK of money definitely leads toward the direct end-user experience, in spades. :(

That's my point, and that's the kick in the ribs you get every time a Linux driver doesn't work, the frontend for it is flaky, there's no support at all for this or that...you could go on all day. Money could fix that. Enough money could fix it fast.

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 11:56 PM
While money certainly can help more than lack of money, I don't think the relationship between money and development is as direct as you seem to imply.

For example, drivers don't work because the code for them is not released to Linux developers. If you have closed source drivers, it takes a lot more than just money to reverse engineer those. What's needed more than money is cooperation and motivation.

Now, you could argue that if hardware vendors saw more potential for profit in developing Linux drivers or releasing driver code to Linux developers, then they would be more likely to do so, but you seem to be implying that developers who work for profit code better than volunteer developers, and that's not necessarily the case.

Look at Debian, for example. That's fully volunteer, and it is rock solid--at least Debian stable is.

Mozilla is a non-profit company (yes, they developed an associated for-profit branch, too), and Firefox is an amazing browser.

Does money help? It certainly doesn't help, but it's not such a simple equation:

More money --> better software
Less money --> worse software

Not by a long shot.

Yossarian
August 11th, 2006, 01:44 AM
I think Mr. Nudds and Bezmotivnik made some good points, and should not be dismissed so quickly.

Do I think if they fixed all the problems Nudds brought up in his rant (crappy device manager, bad GUI, terrible documentation, etc) everyone would flock to Linux on the desktop? Of course not, as aysiu has pointed out so eloquently and so often. However, Nudds is pointing out some real problems that could be fixed. So maybe Joe six-pack won't come running when he smells a new device manger. Who gives a damn what Joe six pack wants? Joe six-pack is not using linux. He is drinking beer and watching football. I could use a good device manager, though.

Also, I agree with Bezmotivnik's comments about starry-eyed linux true-believers. There's too many of those clowns around, and they do indeed stink up the community.

jeffc313
August 11th, 2006, 02:20 AM
"the philosophy remains to be maximum hostility toward the user"
makes total sense. HMMM... Let's design an OS that people will NOT be able to use.

Arisna
August 11th, 2006, 02:26 AM
Nudd's comment about Apple's software design being fundamentally superior to that of Unix is interesting, considering that OS X is built on top of FreeBSD. To my understanding, that leaves it with modifications for hardware support and other things, and Aqua running in a similar capacity to that of X11. But that's inherently better than X11 with GNOME or KDE somehow, right? Wrong.

Also, people who are so concerned about maintaining professionalism that they cannot appreciate a joke like naming something "HappyMeal" frankly make me sick. And how does this guy know that professional programmers don't do things like that anyway? The commercial software companies of whom he is so obviously enamoured do not make their code publicly available.

23meg
August 11th, 2006, 02:30 AM
I haven't read this whole thread but the article is so misinformed it isn't worth taking seriously and discussing.

Bezmotivnik
August 11th, 2006, 04:11 AM
While money certainly can help more than lack of money

You're right so far. ;)


I don't think the relationship between money and development is as direct as you seem to imply.

Well, let's look at it then.


For example, drivers don't work because the code for them is not released to Linux developers.

To begin with, though that's a constant excuse for poor Linux performance, it's far from always the case. Lots of drivers have been released (including ones for hardware I have) and they languish in poor integration, hostile forks and all the other nonsense that appends to Linux development. The "community" was given the drivers and they take a couple of years fooling around with them. They sort of work, sometimes, in some distros, in some situations, and that's probably as far as they'll ever go before the devices are obsolete. That's been my observation with unfunded driver development in Linux for years now.

To the extent they're proprietary, you can just buy the code. If the owners don't want to sell, you buy the programming skill to get the job done anyway. If you don't have enough top-flight, full-time programmers, you buy some more.

If Bill gates wanted drivers for some stupid piece of gear he was in love with, you can bet that if he didn't have them by next Wednesday, he'd at least have them fast. That's what those billions of dollars are for.

Programming talent is available directly proportionally to the amount of money and management budgeted for the project.

You can get a bunch of clowns to spasmodically work for free indefinitely. You can get a top-flight programmer to give you a little of his spare time for free. You can't, however, get a whole army of top-flight programmers to work indefinitely, full-time on a project for free.

That's just the way life is, and it's why Linux is always a day late and a dollar short with so many things.


If you have closed source drivers, it takes a lot more than just money to reverse engineer those. What's needed more than money is cooperation and motivation.

Hello? What do you think money's for?

Money fixes 100% of that! The reason Linux unfunded development doesn't work in a timely fashion is that nobody cares because it's really just a hobby.


but you seem to be implying that developers who work for profit code better than volunteer developers, and that's not necessarily the case.

Of course it's true. At the very least, you get more good programming done in a short time with money than without money, and ultimately that's what it's all about.


Look at Debian, for example. That's fully volunteer, and it is rock solid--at least Debian stable is.

I don't know much about Debian, aside from the fact that it doesn't do any of the things that I need that Ubuntu doesn't do either, thereby leaving me unimpressed. I can't comment beyond that, but:


Mozilla is a non-profit company (yes, they developed an associated for-profit branch, too), and Firefox is an amazing browser.

Firefox was written by professional programmers working for pay from Mozilla Foundation money coming directly from AOL!

AOL pulled the plug on the funding thirteen months ago and cut Mozilla adrift. What they're doing for money now, I don't know, but I'm reasonably sure that those programmers who were making their house payments developing Firefox with AOL money have moved on to other professional work. They definitely were not amateur volunteers. The people doinking around with it now probably are, however -- but they didn't write the program; they're just playing around with it.

OO is from Sun. The nVidia drivers are from real programmers working for real money at that corporation. The major stuff that I find more or less workable in a timely fashion is usually pro programming that was ported to Linux.


Does money help? It certainly doesn't help,

Wait, you want to straighten that out? ;)


but it's not such a simple equation:

More money --> better software
Less money --> worse software

Not by a long shot.

It's about as close to that as it possibly can be. Sure, you can either squander a lot of resources on a bum project or you can you can use limited resources very wisely to get maximum value from them, but no matter what, you'll never -- NEVER -- make a truly all-purpose desktop operating system that actually works properly for the typical 2006 user with typical 2006 hardware without a tremendous amount of money compared to what Linux gets now. It's simply impossible.

G Morgan
August 11th, 2006, 04:54 AM
To be honest the point with Linux is that so many people work on it that money isn't the biggest factor. 1m people coding as a hobby will beat 1,000 people working as a job in any time period. It's simply a numbers game, there are far more of us than there are of them and we tend to repeat less code than they do.

This will only get bigger. Linux is competitive now, why else is its market share increasing. Only the most idiotic would claim that a platform with increasing market share is struggling. As Linux grows its development base also grows. Thats the beauty of it. Time is money and plenty of time is spent on Linux. Thats why its a more dependable platform that most proprietry alternatives, we've got a bigger workforce than they have even if it is distributed.

nalmeth
August 11th, 2006, 06:09 AM
To be honest the point with Linux is that so many people work on it that money isn't the biggest factor. 1m people coding as a hobby will beat 1,000 people working as a job in any time period. It's simply a numbers game, there are far more of us than there are of them and we tend to repeat less code than they do.

This will only get bigger. Linux is competitive now, why else is its market share increasing. Only the most idiotic would claim that a platform with increasing market share is struggling. As Linux grows its development base also grows. Thats the beauty of it. Time is money and plenty of time is spent on Linux. Thats why its a more dependable platform that most proprietry alternatives, we've got a bigger workforce than they have even if it is distributed.
I think you're wrong and right

1m coding as a hobby will mean less time each person spends actually coding compared to the 1000 day-jobbers (and I'm sure there are more like > 10,000 for MS for ex.). But then, how motivated are the day-jobbers, how much are they left to their creative abilities?

Also, it's easy to say our market share is increasing, because it's starting from almost zero, where MS (for ex.) is starting at the top, and can only lose market share.. But then, more linux market share probably means larger development base, and also more crackers..

Time will tell all

Bezmotivnik
August 11th, 2006, 07:02 AM
I think you're wrong and right
I think he's just wrong.


1m coding as a hobby will mean less time each person spends actually coding compared to the 1000 day-jobbers (and I'm sure there are more like > 10,000 for MS for ex.). But then, how motivated are the day-jobbers, how much are they left to their creative abilities?
That's just the start of it.

This is how real software gets written, and I know because I've seen it up close: You get the very best programmers and software engineers money can buy (if you can steal them from your competitors, so much the better), pay them enough to relocate to some pleasant, new R&D center in a congenial part of the country and give them everything they need to closely work together maybe twelve hours a day or more under fairly tight, intelligent project management that keeps them on schedule and on track. You make sure they have a liberal budget, because time is money and if you're bigtime, you'll always spend the money to gain time. You don't screw around with trivialities and you don't pinch pennies. You fire anyone who's holding the project back.

Linux programming is exactly the opposite: Because there's no money, everything takes too much time. That's why hardware and peripherals don't get properly integrated into a distro until they're off the market. It's why Linux wireless support (for example) is about three years behind. Those thousands of hobbyist programmers have barely done squat. They're too busy with endless, jejune arguments about the purity of their code's freeness, pointless forking and stoned distraction. :rolleyes:

If desktop Linux had the funding, it could get serious about making a competitive package and gather enough of those Linux programmers together, pay them well enough to concentrate on the task at hand, keep them all going in the same direction (something Linux programmers are notoriously bad about) and actually get something accomplished within a reasonable timeframe.

This assumes that these people have the professional maturity to work at that level of focus and discipline, which is another question -- one that Nudd already addressed, and probably not that inaccurately.

beniwtv
August 11th, 2006, 10:17 AM
I think the article is wrong. Very wrong.

It's obvious that he didn't care of the 'why?'. The lack of hardware in Linux is NOT because of Linux. Companies will have to release drivers or give the specs so that Linux can support them. Until this happens, we can't do anything about that. Stop bashing Linux for poor commercial drivers or software. Bash the companies.

On the other hand, there's this desktop rant. He said there are too many DE/WM's out there. Maybe there are much. But why do they exist - again, he doesn't care. But then, please, don't care about the hundreds of different car manufacturers neither. Why are there so much? Answer the question yourself.

Also, he said that thing about childish programers that take to long programing. Heh. I had my media streaming server that I currently developing up and running in two days. And it's better than any server I've seen so far IMHO. Too long? And I'm not getting paid for it. I think he should apologise to all programers out there.

Furthermore, the linux tools are more powerful than anything I've seen before. MS-DOS? A laugh. Windows 95? I'm rolling on the floor. Vista? A joke from what I've seen. Again, if Windows is so powerful, why does my company have 20+ servers that are Linux and MAC OSX?

Completely silly article IMHO. Not even worth the commenting,
hence I do to just clarify some things.

Even if vista is good - I don't care. I don't know why - but people just don't seem to know that there are things like DRM, WGA and - the worst that MUCH people seem to forget - Trusted computing. (Please look them up on google if you don't know what they are) Sorry, but I can't trust M$ anymore. Maybe it's just me . Maybe not. hmmmm.

ensiferum
August 11th, 2006, 02:26 PM
Oh I find this so funny that I just had to bring this back up.

Just happens to that at work I need to work on this small Linux project so I figured I'll give Ubuntu the 4th shot. Well whaddya know the live disk fixes on 640x480 res and I can't even click on the buttons in the installer dialog cause they are off screen so badly. lorn. What a joke. (and oh yeah changing the res in the boot menu has no effect naturally).

Oh but right, its just another broken burn. :-&

bruce89
August 11th, 2006, 02:29 PM
Well whaddya know the live disk fixes on 640x480 res and I can't even click on the buttons in the installer dialog cause they are off screen so badly.

sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg would fix it.

ensiferum
August 11th, 2006, 02:46 PM
sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg would fix it.

would fix it, except that it doesnt.

"Package 'xserver-org' is not installed no info is available'

But hey, at least the shutdown button works and the cd makes for a fine coaster!

prizrak
August 11th, 2006, 02:50 PM
It's about as close to that as it possibly can be. Sure, you can either squander a lot of resources on a bum project or you can you can use limited resources very wisely to get maximum value from them, but no matter what, you'll never -- NEVER -- make a truly all-purpose desktop operating system that actually works properly for the typical 2006 user with typical 2006 hardware without a tremendous amount of money compared to what Linux gets now. It's simply impossible.
Despite all the money MS has they still haven't managed to do that. I absolutely can't use it on my tablet (how much more 2006 can you get?) at a reasonable speed with reasonable battery life. Ubuntu on the other hand worked out of the box (fine it took about 5 mins to configure the tablet part but witn a fresh Windows install it would take about the same time installing drivers and calibrating if not longer) on all of it including the wireless, thanks to Intel for opening their specs and drivers up.

Linux desktop has financial backing, Canonical is a corporation that has money, possibly not MS money but then again a plethora of 3rd party ISV's make even less and create excellent programs. I came to Ubuntu at Warty and the improvement was much larger than Windows 2000 to XP and it's been around for only like 3 years. MS hasn't had a new version of their OS in the past 6 years so they are not doing it fast by any means. Also if you wanna bitch about drivers consider that MS does not write any. They have a few general purpose drivers such as VGA and kbd/mouse that are just there to provide a basic functionality while you get the real drivers. Drivers are made by hardware vendors, even with open specs it's fairly difficult to write a driver if you didn't make the hardware and know all the ins and outs of it. I will agree with the device manager argument and that Linux driver installation is a pain. If its not in Synaptic you might as well not have the driver. The point still stands drivers are made by device manufacturers and it is their responsibility to create them money doesn't enter into it it's about knowing the ins and outs of the hardware.

Yossarian
August 11th, 2006, 03:37 PM
Posted by prizrak

...MS hasn't had a new version of their OS in the past 6 years so they are not doing it fast by any means...

Not to say MS is fast, but this is wrong.

From Paul Thurrott's Windows Super Site:
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/macosx_leopard_preview.asp


[Comparing Windows XP to OSX since 2001] By that measure, Microsoft has improved Windows by a far greater degree. In the same time frame, it has shipped Windows XP Home Edition, Windows XP Professional Edition, Windows XP Professional x64 Edition, Windows XP Media Center Edition, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2004, Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 (and 2005 UR2), Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005, Windows XP Home and Professional N Editions, Windows XP with Service Pack 2 (SP2, absolutely a big Windows upgrade), Windows XP Embedded, Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs, and Windows XP Starter Edition in various languages. Heck, I might be missing some versions. No, they're not all major releases (The N Editions? Eh.) But XP x64, like Tiger on Intel, was a major engineering effort. And Apple has nothing--absolutely nothing--like the Media Center and Tablet PC functionality that Microsoft has been refining now for several years. So let's put the silliness about Microsoft doing nothing for five years to rest, shall we?

djsroknrol
August 11th, 2006, 03:49 PM
I've read it a few times...seems like he double talks himself, but he's not bad mouthing Linux...he's saying it's not ready for the masses yet...

win_zik
August 11th, 2006, 04:18 PM
Not to say MS is fast, but this is wrong.

From Paul Thurrott's Windows Super Site:
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/macosx_leopard_preview.asp

I don't think Paul Thurrott's silly Anti-Apple rant is a good source for proving your point.

And no, having different versions of XP or having major updates of one OS certainly doesn't count as a new version.

Yossarian
August 11th, 2006, 04:41 PM
Posted by win_zik
I don't think Paul Thurrott's silly Anti-Apple rant is a good source for proving your point.

And no, having different versions of XP or having major updates of one OS certainly doesn't count as a new version.

First off, dismissing the article as an anti-Apple rant would be a mistake.

Second, I wasn't citing Mr. Thurrott for credibility, but just because he had compiled a concise list of Windows versions, and his article was fresh in my mind.

My point stands. I'm no Microsoft groupie, but the fact is that they have been releasing new versions since XP was released. To claim otherwise is dishonest and rides roughshod over the last 5 years.

EDIT: Grammer

prizrak
August 11th, 2006, 05:01 PM
Not to say MS is fast, but this is wrong.

From Paul Thurrott's Windows Super Site:
http://www.winsupersite.com/showcase/macosx_leopard_preview.asp

1) He is simply wrong, Apple has had an MCE type program for quite a while now.
2) XP MCE and Tablet editions are not really new OS's or even new versions of the old OS. I've used both and the only difference is some of the software. MCE got nothing but a remote driven interface on top that takes up another 200MB's (at least there are 2 CD images and one is full 700MB and the other is 200MB. Source: MSDN DL page), Tablet has handwriting recognition and on screen kbd enabled by default. There are probably some OOTB drivers in there for special hardware that would come in either a n MC or a Tablet but other than that nothing very different from the normal XP.
XP Pro and Home are the same exact OS the only difference is a few registry keys that turn off stuff in Pro to make it Home. I will agree that SP2 is for the most part a new OS but even then there wasn't a whole lot it did. XP 64 is laughable at best it's worse than Dapper 64 and Dapper ain't all that great on 64. I also don't see how that was a major undertaking like the Intel Tiger. The x86-64bit is still an x86 there isn't much change aside from the address space. So recompiling Windows wouldn't be all that difficult. The challenge would be compatibility but it's horrible on it anyways). Certainly less difference than between Breezy and Dapper and it was much longer in development.

I'm not trying to bash MS I largely don't give a damn about it enough to but saying that throwing money at something makes for fast development is obviously wrong.

Yossarian
August 11th, 2006, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by prizrak
1) He is simply wrong, Apple has had an MCE type program for quite a while now.
2) XP MCE and Tablet editions are not really new OS's or even new versions of the old OS. I've used both and the only difference is some of the software. MCE got nothing but a remote driven interface on top that takes up another 200MB's (at least there are 2 CD images and one is full 700MB and the other is 200MB. Source: MSDN DL page), Tablet has handwriting recognition and on screen kbd enabled by default. There are probably some OOTB drivers in there for special hardware that would come in either a n MC or a Tablet but other than that nothing very different from the normal XP.
XP Pro and Home are the same exact OS the only difference is a few registry keys that turn off stuff in Pro to make it Home. I will agree that SP2 is for the most part a new OS but even then there wasn't a whole lot it did. XP 64 is laughable at best it's worse than Dapper 64 and Dapper ain't all that great on 64. I also don't see how that was a major undertaking like the Intel Tiger. The x86-64bit is still an x86 there isn't much change aside from the address space. So recompiling Windows wouldn't be all that difficult. The challenge would be compatibility but it's horrible on it anyways). Certainly less difference than between Breezy and Dapper and it was much longer in development.

I'm not trying to bash MS I largely don't give a damn about it enough to but saying that throwing money at something makes for fast development is obviously wrong.


Thurrott could be wrong about OSX, I have no idea.

But yeah, you're right, most of those releases are pretty minor.

EDIT: Repeated myself

mycelo
August 11th, 2006, 07:23 PM
While reading this whole discussion I developed a sense that, if right, would invalidate this matter entirely. I mean, is Linux meant to replace Windows, compete with Windows or maybe seduce Windows users? I don't think so. At least conceptually. Indeed, several open-source developers are motivated by the desire to mimic/simulate Windows. Some want to overcome, subjulgate and even extinct M$, instead of just making a good work (which they often achieve).

I see Linux as a totally independent initiative, growing side by side amongst other OSes without looking above the shoulders. So why would we care about cloning Windows? Yeah, Linux is pretty much impossible for pure Windows users, so what? Windows has its place as much as Linux. By achieving fame, Linux will also inherit the same flaws (and no one will be making money of that).

Only 2% of the desktop market. Sounds good, if this share grows, the trivialization grows too. Linux is there for those who want and have enough expertise to manage such complex and smart OS. If 98% can't, well I'm happy, I'm a lucky 2%! To swell this share means going M$ way - seducing, cluttering, reducing the control, the freedom and increasing prices. If funding Linux means that, I'd rather look for another unfunded OS.

You can live without Windows, it's not easy, but at least it's free.

As for those who were criticizing this very thread, well as you can see it doesn't turned into a "same old" flame wars. For me it sounded as a constructive, healthy and entertaining discussion. Don't blame the threads, neither the thread starter. Blame the uncultured ones who screw the discussions. Suggestion: make a list for them.

I appreciated every opinion.

mycelo

prizrak
August 11th, 2006, 08:43 PM
While reading this whole discussion I developed a sense that, if right, would invalidate this matter entirely. I mean, is Linux meant to replace Windows, compete with Windows or maybe seduce Windows users? I don't think so. At least conceptually. Indeed, several open-source developers are motivated by the desire to mimic/simulate Windows. Some want to overcome, subjulgate and even extinct M$, instead of just making a good work (which they often archieve).

I see Linux as a totally independent initiative, growing side by side amongst other OSes without looking above the shoulders. So why would we care about cloning Windows? Yeah, Linux is pretty much impossible for pure Windows users, so what? Windows has its place as much as Linux. By archieving fame, Linux will also inerit the same flaws (and no one will be making money of that).

Only 2% of the desktop market. Sounds good, if this share grows, the trivialization grows too. Linux is there for those who want and have enough expertise to manage such complex and smart OS. If 98% can't, well I'm happy, I'm a lucky 2%! To swell this share means going M$ way - seducing, cluttering, reducing the control, the freedom and increasing prices. If funding Linux means that, I'd rather look for another unfunded OS.

You can live without Windows, it's not easy, but at least it's free.

As for those who were criticizing this very thread, well as you can see it doesn't turned into a "same old" flame wars. For me it sounded as a constructive, healthy and entertaining discussion. Don't blame the threads, neither the thread starter. Blame the uncultured ones who screw the discussions. Suggestion: make a list for them.

I appreciated every opinion.

mycelo

Ecellent response and you are correct. Linux (and OS X really) is an alternative for Windows not a replacement. The market share on the desktop is largely under stated as there is no reliable way to track Linux users since there are too few actual sales figures to provide some kind of a metric.

In reality there are much more than 2% of desktop user population that needs no hand holding for Linux and would be quite happy and fine using it. It's just that alot of them don't know about it. I think that Linux could achieve a 10% market share w/o it having to be "dumbed down" for the "average user" (I'm being sarcastic about both terms as there is no way short of getting rid of the CLI to make Linux dumbed down to the point of losing it's power, and there is no such thing as an average user).

I think we might see a spike in Linux interest if Linus finally allowes for binary userland drivers. Alot of hardware vendors are against opening up their specs and don't feel like bothering with Linux drivers because there is more work to come up with an installation routine if they are not open.

drobvice
August 12th, 2006, 08:04 AM
Edit: Why is everyone (two people) singing in this thread? Is it Walk On By by Isaac Hayes? Good song. Had to put it on now.


Sorry couldn't let this one go. Dear god no, it's not Isaac Hayes but Ace of Base (*** of Bass, if you will) and I had to listen to it just now to confirm those were the lyrics. Cr@p! I just admitted I knew what it was and had the song to confirm! Please tell no one. But it did give me a good reason to test out my freshly installed Songbird.

Speaking of which, I keep going back to windows as my iPod video is much easier to deal with in iTunes (podcasts mainly and I have bought a couple of videos in iTunes) and my Canon mp500 printer/scanner doesn't work completely in linux. I used Ubuntu almost exclusively for about 3 months and am just checking back in after a 2 month Windows...(binge? no, excrusion? no, what would you call it?) call it a break Then there's a little thing called Oblivion! For the love of God, Ace of Base is still playing! Turn it off! Jesus frack!

KiwiNZ
August 12th, 2006, 12:21 PM
every farewell thread maybe food for thought and clues for change.

But I think enough said here

loserboy
August 13th, 2006, 06:40 AM
lol.... I accidentally stumbled on this thread

If i believed in reincarnation.....i would say that you must have been really evil in your past life :)

I've never seen so many problems, it makes me want to just send you my computer.

lagagnon
August 13th, 2006, 05:37 PM
But I have now gone back to windows, the reason being I simply cant be bothered to go all around the houses to do simple things ANYMORE!
I am a graphics guy, I loved my Photoshop and flash mx when I was on windows. They don't work on Linux

Then why did you not stick with Windows if absolutely had to use those software items?


There are programs out there that do simplify but you have to spend hours googling for them.
I spent much more time hunting for Windows software than I ever did for Linux software, and I usually got a few bits of spyware thrown in for free!


But for me its nice "SIMPLE" windows, if I want to install something I just click "next". If I want to install a new font I simple open the font folder and drag a newun it it!

I don't know what planet you live on but here on earth to install Windows software I have to:
1) spend hours hunting for the software at various spyware laden download sites
2) or fork out lots of $$$
3) spend minutes reading license agreements and saying yes to ridiculous questions
4) continually getting annoyed by pop-up reminders telling me to do this or that.

Secondly, any time I add a new piece of hardware to WinXP I have to load a CDROM full of extraneous garbage just to get the driver installed. In Linux, the hardware just gets picked up, usually automatically and the module gets loaded. End of story. And no pop-up annoying system tray stuff chewing up my system resources.

Larry

bruce89
August 13th, 2006, 08:21 PM
If you aren't prepared to work on it, then I say bye.

kostkon
August 13th, 2006, 08:24 PM
I hope you'll return back to ubuntu at some time.

In the meantime, I want to say to you goodbye for now.

-deadcats
August 13th, 2006, 10:53 PM
I've added this thread to the list (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243).

Waa haa haa haaaa! Aysiu, that's the best "list" I've read about anything for a long time. Thanks a bunch! :)

regards,
-dc

Footissimo
August 13th, 2006, 11:09 PM
Bye B3nji! Remember not to actually buy Photoshop and Flash MX or the 1000ish quid may max out ya Dad's credit card :)

Full of helpful advice, me :)

Seriously though, thingymajig was correct - another low-post-count-byebye-ubuntu thread is a waste of time. What about just merging them all into one thread. Sure, it won't make a lot of sense, but does anyone really care - they're all the same sort of stuff that can't be dealt with anyway...

uncreative
August 13th, 2006, 11:56 PM
I'm a designer as well and I have no problems designing under linux. I use photoshop (no flash though) by way of crossover office. In fact, I read that all of Disney uses crossover + photoshop.

Have you tried Crossover?

Some Linux designed sites:

www.spoozer.com

www.cyqo.com

Josh Kurtz
August 14th, 2006, 07:19 PM
Maybe the OP can find a better spell checker when he goes back to Windows. ;)

cstudent
August 14th, 2006, 07:27 PM
Knock yourself out there fella. Whatever floats your boat. How about leaving us your email address so we can keep in touch? :cry:

Boomy
August 14th, 2006, 08:33 PM
I agree if you need to use Windows apps like Photoshop, Flash Mx, etc. you are out of luck on Linux. But that is not the fault of Linux, that is the fault of commercial software companies not releasing Linux versions. I'm not sure why this is. I guess they feel it is too small a share of the market to bother with. I wish more companies would start releasing apps for Linux, I think alot more Windows users would switch.


And don't forget Linux is free as are just about all the apps for it. Who can complain about that?

navymom
August 15th, 2006, 10:34 AM
maybe they should make a forum catagory just for those who want to rant or sing the praises of windows. then if you need a good laugh, you'll know right where to look.

Contrid
August 15th, 2006, 11:13 AM
I really love Linux, but it is essential for me to use Photoshop, though it's such a mission to boot Windows just to design/alter a stupid button.

I know that The Gimp can handle PSD's, but it doesn't handle them right. If only there was a way of using Photoshop or something similar concerning quality.

What did I hear about Crossover?

EDIT : I'm practically jumping up and down because I managed to install Photoshop6.0. The only problem is that it doesn't work right. It goes to the splash screen, then bombs out. Imageready seems to work perfectly good. I'm now trying to install CS...maybe that will work. I have a registered version of CS2 as well but apparently it won't work.
Can someone please help me? Maybe I won't have to go back to Windows too soon. :)

Boomy
August 15th, 2006, 04:41 PM
I know photoshop works with crossover, but I don't know if the latest version will, I think it's PS7.

joflow
August 17th, 2006, 05:46 PM
I use MCE 2005 now on a machine that isn't a dedicated media center. Seems to work just fine with 5.1

prizrak
August 17th, 2006, 06:08 PM
Here are the reasons while Linux cannot compete for the desktop.
1) MS has a 90-95% market share (depending on who you ask) and has had something close to that for years. The Linux desktop hasn't been in a position to compete on its merits till about 2 years ago, so it's the new kid on the block.

2) No single large OEM preloads Linux on their consumer machines. Lenovo is supporting Linux on their T60 (not preloading though) but it is not a consumer machine by any means especially @3K that it costs.

3) OEM's are unwilling to support Linux for consumers for many reasons but the main one is that there is no forced upgrade. Take Ubuntu both Warty and Dapper will run about the same on the same hardware. Actually Dapper might be a bit faster since Gnome been optimized a bit in it. If you use Xubuntu it will fly on a P3 equivalent CPU w/o an issue. With Windows there is a new version every few years and each one requires ALOT more than the previous one, Vista specs to run Aero are rediculous, so the OEM's can sell newer more expensive hardware to the consumer with the upgrade.

4) We all grew up with Windows, it's in our offices and schools. Using Linux requires learning new stuff.

Basically using Linux is like losing weight. You know you are better off w/o those extra 20lbs, you will be healthier and feel better, and more attractive (on average). However it requires effort on your part. Staying overweight (or using Windows) is easy, you don't need to put any effort into it. Sure you are worse off and chances are gonna feel the consequences soon but laying on that couch is just so much easier.

Brunellus
August 18th, 2006, 12:33 AM
"Today's young generation can use Linux on the desktop provided it works with their iPod. Linux on the desktop still hasn't reached that stage and has to be compatible with multimedia applications like iTunes and iPod if it has to beat Microsoft's Windows dominance on the desktop. Open source gurus at LinuxWorld discuss solutions to make Linux more consumer-friendly."


http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/17/2055250

don't be a menace to desktop linux while drinking your juice on slashdot. Forum regulars know that a discussion like this invariably means that Brunellus will talk about DOS in the '80s, and sure enough, I did (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=194366&cid=15931147).

What do you think, ubunteros?

uncreative
August 18th, 2006, 12:37 AM
Photoshop 7, Flash MX, and Dreamweaver MX are all fully supported in Linux via Crossover Office.

GoA
August 18th, 2006, 12:42 AM
It's true. The open source apps aren't just good enough. I have to boot to windows to use iTunes.

mrgnash
August 18th, 2006, 12:43 AM
The Linux Desktop Myth (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth)

And on a personal note: Ubuntu 5.10, my sister plugged her iPod (I would never buy one of the damned things) into my laptop and it recognized and interfaced with it straight away. Whereas a whole heap of third-party had to be installed to accomplish the same task on her Windows XP box.

ComplexNumber
August 18th, 2006, 12:53 AM
linux is ready for my desktop.

Yossarian
August 18th, 2006, 02:37 AM
I don't own an ipod, but I have a Dell DJ won in a contest. It's very similar to an ipod from what I gather. I believe it's a whitebox version of a Nomad.

Anyways, all I did with Ubuntu dapper was install gnomad through the repos and plug the thing in. I found gnomad by web searching. It worked, and believe it or not, Gnomad has a more useful interface than the dell explorer you have to use in Windows.

goodmore
August 18th, 2006, 02:53 AM
No sound in Java. I could live with this if it was off all the time or on all the time. It comes and goes for long periods of time. Numerous posts in these forums have gone unanswered about it. I see other people posting the problem also. I need sound on the Internet.

No way to play sound from multiple sources at the same time. When the sound in Java is working (ha) it would be nice to listen to a little music in the back round. Scratch that. Even when the sound in Java isn't working all the other apps still think it is and won't produce sound.

I need a way to rip a DVD with up to date ripping technology. The new Sony protection keeeps me going back to DVDFab Decrypter on my Windows machine all the time. K9copy is not bad until you deal with the newest Sony ****, but it is not the answer. Running DVDFab in Wine sucks. Crash Crash Crash.

And while i'm on the subject of k9copy, Why is my system still using an older version? I installed through Synaptic. If the idea of installing through Synaptic was to make things easier and keep things updated it FAILS. Stop giving me new screen savers, and update my freakin software.

I know Ubuntu is free. I know the people that release it invest a whole bunch of time and money. But until I can the Basics with out a ******* **** load of time and effort from me, I'll have to give my money to $$$$$soft. And that is why Linux , Open Source, Ubuntu, Red Hat or what ever you want to call it will fail. The casual user is the biggest chunk of the market, and we want **** to work without ******* with it every night. If my truck made me look under the hood evry morning I would slam it into a tree and get a new one with the insurance money.

My rant is over ................

meng
August 18th, 2006, 02:58 AM
Good luck, peace be with you.

nalmeth
August 18th, 2006, 03:01 AM
Have fun with Vista

Munchkinguy
August 18th, 2006, 03:05 AM
Ubuntu strives to be completely Free (as in "freedom"). Java is not free software in this sense, so do not expect Ubuntu to spent much time getting non-free software to work with it.

DVD Encryption and Copy Protection is designed to take away your freedom. If DVDs don't work on Free operating systems, blame the consortium/company that came up with these restrictive measures.

If you would like a Linux distribution that plays nice with Java and DVDs, try Freespire, which you can download without charge at http://www.freespire.org/. Mepis also works well.

Donnut
August 18th, 2006, 03:06 AM
OK, Have fun paying daddy gates.

magnoliablossom
August 18th, 2006, 03:07 AM
I understand your frustrations with it. I've had them myself. But those problems aren't the fault of Linux. It's hardware issues and that's because just about every thing out there is made for the Windows environment. Until that changes, it's always going to require a little extra effort to get it to work in Ubuntu (Linux). It doesn't mean it's an inferior product. Actually it's quite the opposite. Considering the things the Linux developers have to overcome to having it working as beautifully as it does I think is pretty much amazing.

az_human
August 18th, 2006, 03:08 AM
I know Ubuntu is free. I know the people that release it invest a whole bunch of time and money. But until I can the Basics with out a ******* **** load of time and effort from me, I'll have to give my money to $$$$$soft. And that is why Linux , Open Source, Ubuntu, Red Hat or what ever you want to call it will fail. The casual user is the biggest chunk of the market, and we want **** to work without ******* with it every night.

Depends on how you perceive the success or failure of Linux. If you mean that Linux will fail because it will never conquer the world... well, only time will tell. I won't even bother arguing one way or another on that one.

However, there are many, many successes that Linux has achieved as both a server and desktop environment. If not, would there be over 100,000 users in this one single forum alone? This is only a tiny chunk of us!

I think there is a huge misinterpretation as to the general purpose of Linux (the eventual conquering of the Microsoft world). I am not saying there is no interest in that, because there obviously is. However, don't stop looking there. Look past that and see the world that is Linux.

I don't remember ever hearing that Linux was meant for the casual user anyhow... but there are plenty of them using Linux! Many of 'em are right here in the Ubuntu forums.

jaybmx
August 18th, 2006, 03:10 AM
your list of complaints is short compared to the list you will have with Vista...

seshomaru samma
August 18th, 2006, 03:14 AM
I don't know if the avarage user is interested in the latest DVD ripping technology. But nobody is going to force you to use Linux. I think WinXP is a fine OS and Vista impressed me as a sexy version of XP.
I find that using Linux demand a lot of input from the user, in return we get a lot of flexibility and power . If you prefer Windows and can afford it (I think most westerners can) - go for it.
On a slightly philosophical note - Windows is more comfortable , but in life you pay a price for comfort , "the lust for comfort kills the passions of the heart and then walk grinning in the funeral" said the Lebanese poet Khalil Jibran. ;)

meng
August 18th, 2006, 03:15 AM
OK, Have fun paying daddy gates.


your list of complaints is short compared to the list you will have with Vista...

Meh, no one *likes* it when users are lost to the community, but no need to have a dig at them when they go! Besides, plenty more joining than leaving!

Subnet
August 18th, 2006, 03:16 AM
Have fun trying out new viruses and spending money, while us Linux users will have fun playing with new technology:D

bfakefree
August 18th, 2006, 03:26 AM
I posted something earlier, and slowly the answer is coming trough as I read this thread.

Some of you guys have missed the boat here.

Linux from what I can pick up was started by computer fanatics, and this grew and grew until someone thought lets target non computer fanatics, like Red Hat and now Umbuntu. So to say to someone "enjoy Vista" after venting his fustration is missing the boat completely. Otherwise ditch Umbuntu and go back to Dos type commands. and leave Window's users aloan.

If the support is not there, then market the product to get critical mass and the industry will be forced to follow. Richard Branson started with one Boeing and no advertising budget except hurtling himself across the world in a Balloom to get exposure.

Mark Shuttleworth will have to do something here, what about teaming up with Virgin and getting Virgin computers going with Umbuntu OS.

I like the under dog, but fight fire with fire.:p

shoagun
August 18th, 2006, 03:30 AM
Though goodmore's post is beligerant, I hope the linux gods are listening to these sorts of complaints. Goodmore is a shining example of why linux is far from being a windows replacement. From my experience, the average computer user (ie most people) are like goodmore. They just want to use a computer for a few simple things. BUT they want those few simple things to just work. They don't care about free as in freedom or tweaking their system or having a powerful commandline. They are quite willing to give money to MS because MS gives them what they want. It's true that much of the software people want to use is not free, which makes it difficult for linux to accomodate. However, the truth is that as long as these things are not made super simple to set up and use on ANY computer, people like goodmore will stay with windows. And I dont' blame them. Not everyone has the time or desire to play around with linux, like many of us do, in order to get it working.

cogsprocket
August 18th, 2006, 03:37 AM
Meh, no one *likes* it when users are lost to the community, but no need to have a dig at them when they go! Besides, plenty more joining than leaving!

I concur. While I think some of his complaints are valid, the way he handled it was poor. Still there's little reason to return the favor. Despite the fact that I am an Ubuntu supporter, I cannot deny that it has it's faults and if these faults cause someone to leave and move to another OS there's really little to be gained by paying vitriol with more vitriol.

The fact is that there are Windows users, there are Linux users and playing the "better than you" game that so many geeks play really isn't doing much to win respect to the either side. What I like about the Ubuntu community is that this attitude is less pronounced than other distro communities. It'd be a shame to start the game here.

metaltailz
August 18th, 2006, 03:37 AM
Have fun with Vista, hope you had a little bit of fun with linux.

saxofoner
August 18th, 2006, 03:40 AM
Linux is worth its community alone.

23meg
August 18th, 2006, 03:42 AM
And that is why Linux , Open Source, Ubuntu, Red Hat or what ever you want to call it will fail. Typical totally baseless extrapolation. The ignorant synonymization aside, how does one know for sure that in x weeks/months/years of time an OS will NOT mature to a point where it will satisfy a wider scope of needs?

Windows is by many definitions very insecure today, but it may be much more secure two versions later, and that isn't unlikely. Ubuntu may not ship with some proprietary codecs today, but how do you know open alternatives will not surface a few months later? Some hardware may not work correctly or at all due to closed specs today, but what if Linux gets above 10% of market share in a few years and manufacturers start opening specs and writing good / open drivers one by one, which again isn't unlikely?

This was just to address a common way of deciding the fate of Linux based OSes and not particular to this thread; I'm not expecting a reply, goodbye.

Munchkinguy
August 18th, 2006, 03:46 AM
Flamewar?

TooDamFast
August 18th, 2006, 03:46 AM
Linux is worth its community alone.

I agree!

sorry to here about your java not working, it works great for me.
DVDshrink/wine also work well for me.

bfakefree
August 18th, 2006, 04:00 AM
I agree with 23Meg, but the attitude must change, you guys don't realize that the public want a rival to Microsoft, hence Umbuntu, if not then why the user friendly interface for the average user. Why the "we Linux and you the windows camp" one second, then later shouts of "lets take on Microsoft" (don't deny it). How? user friendly Os that works with mainstream media, software etc, can I play Quake etc

bluntu
August 18th, 2006, 04:02 AM
Soon or later you'll want to get into LINUX. I wanted to use LINUX a long time ago, tried SUSE but gave up then now here I am again for the second time but with Ubuntu. You can leave now but you'll be back, it's inevitable.

There are a lot of things that Ubuntu frustrates me but I now learnt that it's not Ubuntu's fault. My ATI 9000 Pro didn't work not because Ubuntu doesn't like or incapable of using it, but because ATI doesn't support it or lack of.

My flashplugin doesn't work too well on Ubuntu not because Ubuntu hates Flash or that the programmers don't know how to code to make it work. But because Flash developers don't support LINUX or lack of.

I think the frustration comes from "not knowing" the cause/reason for the problem. For example, when I first used SUSE I didn't know why the fonts are smoothed now I know that it has to do with patent issues so they can't make the fonts look like Windows. I actually blamed the programmers for being stpuid for smoothing out all fonts at the time.

Overall LINUX is a very powerful OS if you know what you're looking at and why you're using it. Now if things don't work I don't get frustrate and I don't blame LINUX, I blame the developers of the thing I'm using.

bodhi.zazen
August 18th, 2006, 04:17 AM
I say to each their own.

If goodmore prefers Windows so be it.

Since I do not use Linux in the same way he does, I do not find Linux annoying in the same way.

I think he misses the whole point of opensource and expects his proprietary software to run on Linux, in the same way he is used to in Windows no less, with no hassle. Let alone his interest in thwarting copy protection. He has not fully explored all Linux has to offer or Linux alternatives. Remember a new or foreign OS seems well hostile and strange and thus he is frustrated.

If he changes his mind we should welcome him back into the Linux community and offer sympathy and assistance, even if his style and motives seem gruff. After all He may rapidly become just as frustrated with Windows Vista.

If he prefers Vista, so be it.

kerry_s
August 18th, 2006, 04:57 AM
Jeez, Why does everyone who runs back to windows have to run to the end of there chain and bark at linux? I believe windows is defective by design, they purposely leave all those holes so they can sell crap to plug them. MS lets you use there system for the sole purpose of running your computer the way they want it to run and to make it work you have to buy extra crap because that's how they make more money.

3rdalbum
August 18th, 2006, 05:29 AM
I've mentioned this a couple of times on the forums, but it bears repeating.

I bought an iPod Shuffle for my mother. To start off with, the iPod wasn't preformatted, so I had to install the software that came with it to format it.

The installer didn't get past the "Rebooting the iPod" stage on its own. When I turned the iPod off, it continued the registration process. Then the installer crashed a little later.

Windows and iTunes still didn't recognise the iPod, even after I restarted, so I tried the installer again. This time it worked, and I formatted the iPod successfully. Windows and iTunes still didnt' recognise the iPod, so I had to restart.

Now iTunes would recognise the device, so I started dragging and dropping songs on it. It seemed to be copying the songs over. When iTunes reported that there was not enough space on the device, I saved and unmounted the iPod. I turned it on... but it wouldn't play!

I put it back into the computer, and iTunes claimed that it was full of songs. I booted into Ubuntu and looked at it in Amarok and GTKpod, and indeed they said that it had the songs on it.

Frustrated, I formatted the iPod again in Windows, but this time I used GTKpod to load songs onto it. It worked. Perfectly.

I guess this means that iTunes and Windows aren't ready for the desktop!

aysiu
August 18th, 2006, 05:42 AM
Ah, the old "ready for the desktop" idea. I agree with Brunellus' Slashdot post. It doesn't matter how good Ubuntu or any Linux distro gets. That has little bearing on mass adoption.

If you have some time to read this, here are all my thoughts on this whole Linux desktop idea:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

Edit: I'm an imbecile. mrgnash already linked to my essay earlier in the thread.

wapowell
August 18th, 2006, 06:11 AM
Since I do not use Linux in the same way he does, I do not find Linux annoying in the same way.


Thanks for posting that. I think that is a big key to having an open mind on topics like this. Obviously when we see rants about Linux (ummm,... you mean linux as in the kernel or linux as in some application for the linux platform which won't do what you think it should and you don't know why ;) ) like the ones that started this thread we can see it was written out of frustration and confusion and not out of a reasonable understanding of OSS and Linux.

The irony of condeming "Linux" because one can't copy a copy protected DVD which uses a new proprietary copy protection scheme is placing the blame not at the feet of the company that is writing the software that is interfering with the ability to copy the DVD (aka, Sony), rather placing the blame squarely at the feet of "Linux" and OSS because nobody has written free software to thwart the proprietary copy protection efforts of a company. Did "we" forget about the copy protected CDs which required license software to be installed before Windows would recognize the CD as a music CD (which by the way also installed a rootkit)? I think we all reasonably understood that it wasn't "Windows" at fault in that scenario (though the OS did make it possible for the rootkit to be possible), rather it was due to the efforts of the companies producing the CDs that put this restriction in place.

Most of us understand that "Linux" and OSS isn't designed with the purpose of negating copy protection schemes of a DVD (or CD, or network, or anything else for that matter) any more than a sharpie is designed to negate copy protection schemes of DVDs or CDs. Of course, how YOU choose to apply technology (Linux or sharpie for that matter) is your own choice. :mrgreen:

As far as
But until I can the Basics with out a ******* **** load of time and effort from me, I'll have to give my money to $$$$$soft. I would argue that circumventing proprietary copy protection isn't "basic". Browse the net, send email, install and uninstall software, chat, etc... that I would consider "the basic". For me, the Linux platform and OSS has expanded my expecatation of "the basics". Example, an office suite (thanks Open Office), web server (thanks Apache), reasonably safe desktop environment (thanks Linux), etc. But wanting someone else to write software that will allow me to copy a DVD or CD that has a proprietary, closed source copy protection scheme (by the way copying these dvds or cds would be, all idealogical debates aside, illegal right?) is pretty far outside the scope of "the basics"... at least what I would consider reasonable as a definition for "the basics". It's pretty cool, but not the basics of desktop computing.

Last time I checked the Add/Remove software in Windows XP doesn't go to any repository of any kind and automatically update ANY software. For my Windows XP laptop I still have to periodically check each and every application (except for apps like firefox which check on their own for updates) and if need be manually update each of them one by one... MANUALLY. So this person has to do that in the case of K9copy since the repository doesn't have the latest version. Funny thing is... the behaviour that upset this person is the EXACT SAME scenario that he will have in and Windows environment... manual updates of applications. If anything I take it as a positive note that Synaptic worked so well and was so comfortable/convenient to use that in this case where it didn't provide an updated app and required that the user relive the Windows experience of manual updating his apps, the end user was upset. This shows that at least in this example the model of how MS manages software updates (not OS updates) is indeed frustrating and inconvenient. Whilst nothing is perfect, this users frustrations at least show me that the apt repository system is indeed a movement in the right direction. But he was expecting a different action from Synaptic... and when he got the Windows experience (go do a manual update of an app) he was frustrated.

I wish the person that started this thread luck, and hope next time he decides to try something new he finds the result that he was hoping for.

omns
August 18th, 2006, 06:19 AM
.

alexandermimix
August 18th, 2006, 06:22 AM
I will most likely be using vista too at some stage... not that I can see myself paying for it :rolleyes:.

I like the idea of linux however have yet to find where it fits well in my computing life as I am yet to find something it is better at doing then windows except being free which also isnt really that much of a concern to me as XP is free (as in cost) too.

3rdalbum
August 18th, 2006, 06:35 AM
No sound in Java.

Java is a broken technology, and should never be used. Seriously, you're just as likely to have that same sound problem in Java for Windows on a different machine.


No way to play sound from multiple sources at the same time. When the sound in Java is working (ha) it would be nice to listen to a little music in the back round. Scratch that. Even when the sound in Java isn't working all the other apps still think it is and won't produce sound.

Do you mean that you only ever get sound in one program at a time? Or do you just mean that Java blocks other programs from having access to sound, while the Java program is running?

If the former, that really shouldn't be happening. If the latter, then just try to avoid Java. Seriously, Java sucks, and I get along fine without it.


The new Sony protection keeeps me going back to DVDFab Decrypter on my Windows machine all the time. K9copy is not bad until you deal with the newest Sony ****, but it is not the answer.

Uhh... the Sony copy protection is designed to stop you from ripping DVDs. It's not exactly Ubuntu's fault if you can't rip copy-protected DVDs.


And while i'm on the subject of k9copy, Why is my system still using an older version? I installed through Synaptic. If the idea of installing through Synaptic was to make things easier and keep things updated it FAILS. Stop giving me new screen savers, and update my freakin software.

So you're going back to Windows because you'd have to install the latest verison of k9copy manually, rather than using Synaptic? Dude, if you go back to Windows, you'll have to update all your programs manually anyway!


My rant is over ................

I think you'll find that the average Windows user has trouble with Java. On Windows, I have trouble with getting multiple programs to share sound. On Windows, the version of Nero I have won't rip the copy-protected DVDs. On Windows, you have to update everything manually. If you learn to use Ubuntu and then try to install and use Windows for the first time, you run into similar kinds of troubles.

I've no idea what the poster was expecting. Magic, perhaps?

Iandefor
August 18th, 2006, 06:44 AM
At this point, I don't care. The next DAP I buy, I plan on getting one that supports Linux oob, or works with RockBox.

And I've also stopped caring about the whole "ready for the desktop" thing. Linux works well for me, that's what I care about now.

aysiu
August 18th, 2006, 07:02 AM
Do you mean that you only ever get sound in one program at a time? Or do you just mean that Java blocks other programs from having access to sound, while the Java program is running? I've never found a reason to use Java, actually, but I just tried playing a Flash video on Google Video, an MP3 in Rhythmbox, and another MP3 in Totem, and I could play all three at once.

Why would you want to hear three sound sources at once? I don't know.

bodhi.zazen
August 18th, 2006, 07:17 AM
alexandermimix: It depends on what you are intending to do. If you are new to Linux give it time, you will find a lot Linux does better.

Brief listing of Advantages of Linux (short list):

Security, Application updates and management, I think it is much easier to configure hardware in Linux, Linux has Fluxbox and other windows managers, I have ultimate control of my box, both how it is configured and what and how it runs. The command line interface is much easier in Linux then Windows. Networking is easier in Linux. Did I mention the Linux community is much more helpful then the Microsoft help center. Should I continue?

Advantages of Windows: Someone please help me here. I no longer run windows because of viruses, worms, costs. I mean in Windows each and every application is for sale. And what do I get for my money? User debugged software with closed, proprietary code I can not examine or modify.

Do not get me wrong, I am not advocating free as in free beer. I regularly donate to projects that produce Linux software. I just chose to financially support opensource rather then proprietary software. This is a ideological/philosophical choice. I do not expect a "free" as in free beer OS. If you use Linux you should financially support your favorite opensource application. I donate as much to Linux as I would spend on Windows each year.

croak77
August 18th, 2006, 07:20 AM
That's a pretty bad setup to the actual article. It makes it seem like the article is focused on ipod. Nowhere does it say ipod does not work in Linux or that Linux is not ready for 'primetime'. In case people want to skip the junk that is slashdot;

http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=18023&hed=Linux%E2%80%99s+iPod+Generation+Gap

Bladergroen
August 18th, 2006, 07:37 AM
Buying Vista will help you to Rip DVD's?... well I hope the monopoly horny mr Gates will provide you the tools/licenses to do that :mrgreen: .
I am completely new to Linux and I have also a lot of problems with it, but start learning and I think you have a very potential stable system to work with. My interest comes from MacOSX (Darwin variant!). Now THAT is a user friendly Linux variant, stable, smooth, ****soft compatible, dual core intel etc...

At last... I thought this forum was to question and answer problems for beginners, not for complaining and outing your frustrations ](*,)

Greetz, Reno

Lopsicle
August 18th, 2006, 08:47 AM
I posted something earlier, and slowly the answer is coming trough as I read this thread.

Some of you guys have missed the boat here.

Linux from what I can pick up was started by computer fanatics, and this grew and grew until someone thought lets target non computer fanatics, like Red Hat and now Umbuntu. So to say to someone "enjoy Vista" after venting his fustration is missing the boat completely. Otherwise ditch Umbuntu and go back to Dos type commands. and leave Window's users aloan.

If the support is not there, then market the product to get critical mass and the industry will be forced to follow. Richard Branson started with one Boeing and no advertising budget except hurtling himself across the world in a Balloom to get exposure.

Mark Shuttleworth will have to do something here, what about teaming up with Virgin and getting Virgin computers going with Umbuntu OS.

I like the under dog, but fight fire with fire.:p

Thats a brilliant idea Richard Branson and Virgin know how to take on the big guys :mrgreen:

fuscia
August 18th, 2006, 09:13 AM
linux works on more desktops than osx does. osx only works on some machines. now that windows can work on a mac, we'd best keep an eye on the rear view mirror.

fuscia
August 18th, 2006, 09:17 AM
linux, like toilet training, takes a little effort and is far preferable to the alternatives.

OffHand
August 18th, 2006, 09:21 AM
C ya laters

Klaidas
August 18th, 2006, 09:23 AM
I've noticed that when something goes wrong, the "I'll use Windows!" sounds like threatning. lol:)

Soarer
August 18th, 2006, 10:33 AM
My Cowan iAudio X5 works perfectly on Ubuntu. Mounts itself & then you just drag & drop (or rsync in my case).

No DRM nonsense either...

aussiedini
August 18th, 2006, 11:01 AM
My Ipod works fine with gtk-pod. And my desktop looks great.

frodon
August 18th, 2006, 11:10 AM
Why not just buy an mp3 player which don't use any proprietary software to download or manage your music.
I would rather prefer see people understand the danger of proprietary softwares and DRM and buy another mp3 player than seing a full ipod support coming under linux.

GoA
August 18th, 2006, 11:22 AM
Problems what I have with my iPod are that I need to different programs to sync it and to use podcasts. I need iPodder to download the podcasts and gtkpod to move them to my iPod.

Then the bugs. Amarok doesnt' understand my Ipod so I cannot use it with it. Rhythmbox can read my ipod and download podcasts but cannot sync my Ipod. So both of them are useless to me.

Then gtkpod. First of all when I added my music to the library I got several (Read: couple hundred) error messages that some files cannot be added to playlist. Those were nfo's (understandable) and lot's of mp3 which still were actually added to my library.

Then syncinc, drag and drop? It tried to create some playlists which I did not want. Also the user interface required much more thinking and learning than iTunes. After this I just decided that, no, these programs aren't good enough for ME, it's just easier to boot in windows to do this. Let's see again in a year or two.

GoA
August 18th, 2006, 11:23 AM
Why not just buy an mp3 player which don't use any proprietary software to download or manage your music.
I would rather prefer see people understand the danger of proprietary softwares and DRM and buy another mp3 player than seing a full ipod support coming under linux.

Because Apples design just beats the crap out of others? :) And let's face it. Proprietary software and DRM is a must in these days.

!nkubus
August 18th, 2006, 11:31 AM
Because Apples design just beats the crap out of others? :) And let's face it. Proprietary software and DRM is a must in these days.

That's why my Ipod Runs RockBox ;)

GoA
August 18th, 2006, 11:38 AM
That's why my Ipod Runs RockBox ;)

I think it's better not to start tweaking my Nano. Too expensive to brake it. :D

mgpower0
August 18th, 2006, 12:28 PM
B3Nji, what makes you thnk anyone cares if you go back to windows or not. Sure its your choice but you don't have to announce it to the world. For every whining user like you there are 100 out there that love Linux and would never cosider going back to windows. If ever i need something that Linux can't do I'll boot up the laptop which still runs windows. Thats yet to happen:)

Carrots171
August 18th, 2006, 01:28 PM
Why get an iPod? They have so many design flaws:

- The iPod shuffle doesn't even have a screen
- All iPods have non-removable batteries (http://neistat.com/pages/video_holding/ipod_holding.htm)
- The iPod video's battery doesn't last long enough for you to watch a movie
- iPods don't support many formats that other music players do, E.G. Ogg, FLAC, WMA
- iPods don't have FM radio, line-in recording, and a microphone (something that's standard in many other music players)
- The iPod Nano is probably the most scratch-prone piece of electronics out there.

insane_alien
August 18th, 2006, 02:56 PM
bah who cares about iPods. i don't own an iPod. i have an mp3 player by olympus caled an m:robe it works fine with ubuntu. i also have a wee cheapy one that is basically a glorified flashstick, it works fine. everything(almost) works fine. i have less problems on ubuntu. its ready.

Bragador
August 18th, 2006, 02:59 PM
bah who cares about iPods. i don't own an iPod. i have an mp3 player by olympus caled an m:robe it works fine with ubuntu. i also have a wee cheapy one that is basically a glorified flashstick, it works fine. everything(almost) works fine. i have less problems on ubuntu. its ready.

Exactly.

Why are people ALWAYS targetting a specific product and say "hey it's not that compatible so linux is eh sux0r !"

I'd say APPLE and the IPOD are not ready for Linux, not LINUX is not ready for the desktop !

What kind of logic is that !?!

](*,)

Brunellus
August 18th, 2006, 03:03 PM
I posted the link to the /. post and my brief essay (misspellings and all) thereon to show just how frivolous the "not ready" claims can be. I have maintained both in these forums and now on /. that individual desktop readiness is a worthy consideration, but one that's ultimately irrelevant to mass adoption.

Aysiu, I agree completely with your "myth" essay. We seem to be approaching the issue from two different angles and reaching the same conclusion. I tend to think of mass adoption from a historical/economic point of view. If anyone is aware of any credible academic literature on computer and/or operating system mass adoption, I would love to read it.

As far as the iPod itself: I don't have one, and won't be getting one. DRM is *not* necessary to me. Most of my music purchases these days are local independent bands, whose CDs I pick up at shows. Ripping via grip or sounjuicer to ogg q4 means I have the music on my computer and any compatible device DRM-free. I have no use for iTMS or any of the subscription music services, and I may be one of the few people in the community who's come to *like* Rhythmbox. Is that because I had no experience of iTunes in windows? I'll never know.

All of this is irrelevant, though, because individual users will not effect a massive migration to desktop Linux through their separate, disparate desktop migrations. The home market did not determine the direction of mass adoption before, and likely will not do so in the future.

dca
August 18th, 2006, 03:17 PM
The threads would be a little more interesting if user(s) included context in their bashing or 'rah-rah' threads... If you're a kid who crashed his HDD and have no WinXP (or whatever) image CD because newer systems include separate partitions for that than maybe finding a way to D/L from the web a LiveCD or install that fits on one CD, ie: Mepis, Ubuntu, et al may work for you to just get up and running. Let's face it for hardware detection on laptops & PC(s) I've never seen anything like Ubuntu & Mepis. Try SUSE & Fedora, I'm still trying to set resolution to 1024 x 768 for an LCD display on those distros...

Now, people that are in IT: a lot of companies have no choice when it comes to multi-platform situations whether it be financial reasons or the preferences of the CTO/CIO (why do they all prefer MACs??) who is in charge at the time. We got servers running Linux, IBMs want AIX, a bunch of wanna-be servers (actual P4 PCs w/ raid card/controllers and multiple IDE HDDs) and then some... Those are the individuals I like hearing complaints from...

slimdog360
August 18th, 2006, 04:09 PM
ubuntu and other distros work perfectly for me. Why is that you ask, because I spent the time learning how to use it rather then whinging about stupid little things.

jackkerouac
August 18th, 2006, 07:12 PM
I dual boot Ubuntu Dapper Drake and Windows XP.

I don't like it, but reality forces my hand. Ubuntu burns DVDs, quite frankly, like crap, so I use AnyDVD and DVD Shrink, DVD Decrypter on Windows XP.

For the LIFE of me, I cannot get Cisco VPN Client to work properly in Ubuntu (my headers ARE installed you pile of garbage!), so I use the Windows version to connect to work when I MUST.

Same goes with Macromedia Dreamweaver 8.02 - simply doesn't work in Ubuntu with Wine, Crossover, etc., so until it does, I'll use Windows.

My biggest beef? Fonts. Fonts in Ubuntu LOOK LIKE CRAP! Seriously. If there was any reason for me to go back full-time to Windows, fonts would be it. Of course, there's no chance of that, so I guess I'll just have to suffer until it's fixed.

aysiu
August 18th, 2006, 07:22 PM
My biggest beef? Fonts. Fonts in Ubuntu LOOK LIKE CRAP! Seriously. If there was any reason for me to go back full-time to Windows, fonts would be it. Of course, there's no chance of that, so I guess I'll just have to suffer until it's fixed. You must have a flat panel monitor. When I got a flat panel, I thought, "What the hell is this? Why do they look like crap all of a sudden?" Then I found out about reconfiguring the fonts, and they look smooth as butter.

Check out this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=4456&page=7), particularly post #67.

meng
August 18th, 2006, 07:24 PM
I dual boot Ubuntu Dapper Drake and Windows XP.

I don't like it, but reality forces my hand. Ubuntu burns DVDs, quite frankly, like crap, so I use AnyDVD and DVD Shrink, DVD Decrypter on Windows XP.

For the LIFE of me, I cannot get Cisco VPN Client to work properly in Ubuntu (my headers ARE installed you pile of garbage!), so I use the Windows version to connect to work when I MUST.

Same goes with Macromedia Dreamweaver 8.02 - simply doesn't work in Ubuntu with Wine, Crossover, etc., so until it does, I'll use Windows.

My biggest beef? Fonts. Fonts in Ubuntu LOOK LIKE CRAP! Seriously. If there was any reason for me to go back full-time to Windows, fonts would be it. Of course, there's no chance of that, so I guess I'll just have to suffer until it's fixed.

Can't argue with your logic here, your individual priorities are good reasons to keep using Windows. I will just point out that I use vpnc instead of Cisco VPN to connect to a Cisco concentrator, and for me that works fine.

prizrak
August 18th, 2006, 07:45 PM
linux works on more desktops than osx does. osx only works on some machines. now that windows can work on a mac, we'd best keep an eye on the rear view mirror.

It's hard (and unsafe) to look at the rear view mirror when you are going 200MPH overtaking others.

iPod sux either way, I like my iRiver updated with UMS firmware so that I don't need anything but a file manager to put files on it. Actually I don't even need that cp ~/My_Music /media/usbdrive is more than enough :)

Brunellus
August 18th, 2006, 07:47 PM
rsync prizrak. rsync is your friend.

bodhi.zazen
August 18th, 2006, 07:48 PM
jackkerouac:

I understand your frustrations to be sure.

With DVD technology, however, to be fair, it is not always so easy in Windows either. I have plenty of friends who need help with their Windows CD/DVD burners.

And I am not sure if you what type of DVD technology you are referring to. I can burn data or .iso files just fine in Linux so I assume you are referring to a movie DVD which I have never done, Linux or Windows. Again if you are talking about thwarting encryption/copy protection on a DVD .....

If you need a burner, in my opinion, try K3b.

As I said in my first post, it all comes down to how you use your box. There certainly are times when Windows is better for your needs. Linux meets mine at the moment and I no longer use Windows (outside of work where I have no choice of course).



If you must know, the thing that annoys me most with Ubuntu is Bloat. It was nice at first as a newbie to Linux, but I have moved on to other distros (Zenwalk or Arch) as primary. I enjoy the Ubutu forums, and still dable in Ubuntu, but even a server install can become bloated if you are not careful.

prizrak
August 18th, 2006, 07:49 PM
rsync prizrak. rsync is your friend.

Hehe, that it is. I haven't used my mp3 playa since learning about it :) I too like Rhythmbox. It is very nice and simplistic and can be minimized into an icon in the notification area :)

Zodiac
August 18th, 2006, 08:00 PM
I dunno, I have never been able to properly use my ipod with Ubuntu... nor can I play the latest hawt video games... or connect to a wireless network using WEP or WAP... therefore, yea...

fuscia
August 18th, 2006, 08:27 PM
It's hard (and unsafe) to look at the rear view mirror when you are going 200MPH overtaking others.

iPod sux either way, I like my iRiver updated with UMS firmware so that I don't need anything but a file manager to put files on it. Actually I don't even need that cp ~/My_Music /media/usbdrive is more than enough :)

if i want to hear something, i just whistle it. call me 'old school', i guess.

Brunellus
August 18th, 2006, 08:49 PM
if i want to hear something, i just whistle it. call me 'old school', i guess.
I was actually singing to myself on the train platfrom waiting for my train home from work last night.

Maybe that's why I was able to get a seat all by myself.

EdThaSlayer
August 18th, 2006, 09:11 PM
Linux is ready for MY desktop...
buts its weird even though you say the ipod doesnt work with Linux...many people(well...most)say that their Ipod works better on Linux than on Windows...

Anyways, anyhow...i still would like Linux more even if it didnt support Ipods...

prizrak
August 18th, 2006, 09:19 PM
I dunno, I have never been able to properly use my ipod with Ubuntu... nor can I play the latest hawt video games... or connect to a wireless network using WEP or WAP... therefore, yea...

Ummm. Dunno bout the iPod but I got a WAP network at home and it works quite well. Putting the password to unlock the keyring is damn annoying but perhaps it will be sorted out in the later release of Network-Manager. Then again I think it's a Gnome issue, it should have an option to use your user password for keyring and unlock it on logon. Of course it's less secure but in a single user environment should be just fine.

arkangel
August 18th, 2006, 09:44 PM
Linux is ready for MY desktop...
buts its weird even though you say the ipod doesnt work with Linux...many people(well...most)say that their Ipod works better on Linux than on Windows...

Anyways, anyhow...i still would like Linux more even if it didnt support Ipods...

I agree with 100% if i had to choose either to sell my ipod or to go back to windows , i would sell my ipod at once , Fortunately it is a Myth because it works perfectly :D

RavenOfOdin
August 18th, 2006, 09:59 PM
I can't corroborate those problems for you, and I'm sure no one else here will be able to. I've had no issues with sound or background applications. As a
matter of fact, if I'm listening to music or Internet videos sometimes I'm forced to turn the system sound off.

That being said, if you think Vista is right for you then by all means go ahead, I'm sure you'll reconsider after having your privacy violated up and down.

fuscia
August 18th, 2006, 10:46 PM
I was actually singing to myself on the train platfrom waiting for my train home from work last night.

Maybe that's why I was able to get a seat all by myself.

try doing seth riggs' lip trills and you'll get the whole train to yourself. (seth riggs is an L.A. voice teacher, speaking of singing.)

Floola
August 18th, 2006, 10:49 PM
You might try Floola. Floola is a new cross plattform iPod manager for linux, mac and windows.

Although still in beta, it works quite good. At the moment I'm looking for beta testers and translators (english, dutch and spanish are already included in last release).

It supports all iPods and most features (lyrics, artwork, etc...).

http://www.floola.com

Tomas

kernelpanicked
August 18th, 2006, 10:57 PM
For the LIFE of me, I cannot get Cisco VPN Client to work properly in Ubuntu (my headers ARE installed you pile of garbage!), so I use the Windows version to connect to work when I MUST.



That's because the Cisco VPN client is a total piece. It only works on RHEL and then only with a lot of tweaking. Save yourself some serious headaches and go with vpnc.

PenguinMan
August 18th, 2006, 11:11 PM
Though goodmore's post is beligerant, I hope the linux gods are listening to these sorts of complaints. Goodmore is a shining example of why linux is far from being a windows replacement. From my experience, the average computer user (ie most people) are like goodmore. They just want to use a computer for a few simple things. BUT they want those few simple things to just work. They don't care about free as in freedom or tweaking their system or having a powerful commandline. They are quite willing to give money to MS because MS gives them what they want. It's true that much of the software people want to use is not free, which makes it difficult for linux to accomodate. However, the truth is that as long as these things are not made super simple to set up and use on ANY computer, people like goodmore will stay with windows. And I dont' blame them. Not everyone has the time or desire to play around with linux, like many of us do, in order to get it working.
I agree totally... :)

PenguinMan
August 18th, 2006, 11:15 PM
No sound in Java. I could live with this if it was off all the time or on all the time. It comes and goes for long periods of time. Numerous posts in these forums have gone unanswered about it. I see other people posting the problem also. I need sound on the Internet.

No way to play sound from multiple sources at the same time. When the sound in Java is working (ha) it would be nice to listen to a little music in the back round. Scratch that. Even when the sound in Java isn't working all the other apps still think it is and won't produce sound.

I need a way to rip a DVD with up to date ripping technology. The new Sony protection keeeps me going back to DVDFab Decrypter on my Windows machine all the time. K9copy is not bad until you deal with the newest Sony ****, but it is not the answer. Running DVDFab in Wine sucks. Crash Crash Crash.

And while i'm on the subject of k9copy, Why is my system still using an older version? I installed through Synaptic. If the idea of installing through Synaptic was to make things easier and keep things updated it FAILS. Stop giving me new screen savers, and update my freakin software.

I know Ubuntu is free. I know the people that release it invest a whole bunch of time and money. But until I can the Basics with out a ******* **** load of time and effort from me, I'll have to give my money to $$$$$soft. And that is why Linux , Open Source, Ubuntu, Red Hat or what ever you want to call it will fail. The casual user is the biggest chunk of the market, and we want **** to work without ******* with it every night. If my truck made me look under the hood evry morning I would slam it into a tree and get a new one with the insurance money.

My rant is over ................
This is what I have been saying all along in regards to Linux and the new Linux user. i.e. ex-Windows user.

PixelCloud
August 18th, 2006, 11:41 PM
Ubuntu is not all of Linux. It is one version of Linux. You don't need Automatix on Mepis or Blag, for example.

You don't have to fiddle with settings on a System 76 computer (http://www.system76.com).

Read the last link in my sig.


getting ubuntu installed isnt the problem


getting it working correctly is

iv'e ******* had it with ubuntu and its ******** with wireless nics

honestly, i really tried hard to like this operating system but i do not enjoy flipping between partitions (windows and ubuntu installs) to try to get my ******* internet running. Its like ohh lets install ndiswrapper, oh wait i have to compile it, oh ubuntu doesnt have gcc, make or any of the dev tools included. Lets use aptget, oh no not internet connection. Ok time to download deb packages in wnindows and using them in ubuntu.

Dependencies are a nightmare when you dont have an active internet connection and aptget.

*pissed off ubuntu user*

aysiu
August 19th, 2006, 12:21 AM
I think you're missing the point--part of "installation" is all the configuration you have to do afterwards.

If you buy a Ubuntu-preinstalled computer from System76, wireless will be working out of the box.

You won't have to do anything to get wireless working.

aysiu
August 19th, 2006, 12:22 AM
This is what I have been saying all along in regards to Linux and the new Linux user. i.e. ex-Windows user.
Except that some of us ex-Windows users have had no problems playing multiple sounds, have no need for Java, and do not copy copy-protected DVDs.

Kernel Sanders
August 19th, 2006, 12:29 AM
Vista! LMAO! :mrgreen: :p

Enjoy the DRM and WGA fest! :p

fluffnik
August 19th, 2006, 02:33 AM
If my truck made me look under the hood evry morning I would slam it into a tree and get a new one with the insurance money.

You may choose to run a truck and MS windows, I choose to run a bespoke OS and this:
http://www.fluffy.f9.co.uk/alpina_b10/websize/alpina_b10-002.jpg

Neither is for crashing.

fluffnik
August 19th, 2006, 03:46 AM
linux, like toilet training, takes a little effort and is far preferable to the alternatives.

:mrgreen:

fuscia
August 19th, 2006, 03:53 AM
oo! where can i get a copy of vista?...oh wait...it's not out yet, is it?

bodhi.zazen
August 19th, 2006, 05:30 AM
fuscia:

If interested you can run the vista beta. Last time I looked it was freely available from Microsoft (you did, of course have to register with Microsoft which I chose not to do).

It "deactivates" after a month. Not to sure about this feature.

Can not promise this is accurate or up to date information as the last time I checked on vista was over a year ago and I was never interested enough to install (yawn).

There are some reviews on the web Re: features that look interesting. One is voice recognition. Looks like this will be "built in" as a part of vista. This means you may be able to "talk to your computer" and use voice commands to open applications, transcribe voice (voice -> to text), etc. There is as least one video recording of this feature in action on the web.

Granted, you can talk to your computer now, it just seems a little sluggish on the response time.

Again, I have not seriously looked into any of this, but if true it could be as revolutionary as the GUI/mouse combination a few years back. Certainly Linux has no voice recognition capabilities at the moment.

If this rumor is true, and it works (two BIG ifs) I might have to investigate Vista further.

Just thought you may find the information interesting (If you get the impression I am a Microsoft/Vista fan... You have the WRONG impression).

23meg
August 19th, 2006, 05:40 AM
I don't see any point in this thread continuing. Mass ignore?

spockrock
August 19th, 2006, 06:25 AM
ummm I switched from ubuntu and seriously if I need to use windows I will but thats like 2% of the time. I have since overcame and obstacles, such as multiple sounds which worked right away but I messed it up trying to get flash sound, and then fixed it again.

On vista the voice command/dictation, is really bad, there is a video of msnbc seeing it in action it was total garbage it didnt work at all, you can see it on youtube, it was a horrible failure. The OS idles at like 800-900MB its crazy. Ubuntu doesn't come anywhere near that for me, 500MB with xgl and compiz. I can push 600-700MB with firefox, amarok, azureus. Not to mention with xgl and compiz I get better eye candy for less.

I am glad I switched to linux, best thing ever. I find my self getting really frustrated with windows sometimes, really frustrated.

terminatingzero
August 19th, 2006, 07:02 AM
Dude your funny:) Enjoy ripping and burning your dvds and cds in vista when you take this into consideration:

http://stopdrmnow.org/

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/05/who_owns_your_c.html

http://www.againsttcpa.com/

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/en/about

http://www.eff.org/IP/digitalvideo/

Good Luck with vista;)

Rhapsody
August 19th, 2006, 08:18 AM
Why I'd buy Vista

The inevitable happens. My sanity finally leaves me entirely, and I become clinically insane. I buy Windows Vista Home Premium, and are certified the next day.

I'm pretty convinced this will happen some day, but until then, I'm happy with Kubuntu.

B0rsuk
August 19th, 2006, 11:01 AM
ipod not ready for linux = ipod not ready for me.

aysiu
August 19th, 2006, 05:01 PM
I don't have an iPod, and my wife barely uses hers any more, but haven't people been saying that--since Dapper--Banshee and AmaroK have worked really well with iPods?

jackkerouac
August 20th, 2006, 02:26 AM
As I said in my first post, it all comes down to how you use your box. There certainly are times when Windows is better for your needs. Linux meets mine at the moment and I no longer use Windows (outside of work where I have no choice of course).

Admittedly, I use Windows about 2-5% of the time now. I will burn DVDs and use Photoshop CS2, Macromedia Dreamweaver 8.02 and Cisco VPN (tried vpnc but have no idea what IPSEC is and it says it can't get through port 500), but for everything else, I use Ubuntu.

I have XGL and Compiz running just great on my ATI card and the eye candy is, quite frankly, awesome. I even stooped so low as to add gnome-main-menu for the wife and kids and they love it.

So don't get me wrong - I love Ubuntu and the philosophy behind it. I'm eagerly awaiting the time when all of my 'work' apps function 'like butter' in Ubuntu. That's the day I'll erase the other hard drive.

That and when my occasional games play, that is.

As far as I can tell, Vista bites the big one. It's bloatware, fugly and uses WAY too much memory.

bodhi.zazen
August 20th, 2006, 02:46 AM
jackkerouac:

Nothing wrong with this as all. The goal is, of course, to USE your computer as efficiently and easily as possible. In the end, this is all goodmore, who started this post, wanted as well.

For myself I find Linux easier to use then Windows (do not confuse ease of use with familiarity).

I would assume a lot, if not most Ubuntu users dual boot.

I was in the same boat a year ago. I got that last application to run like butter and so no need for Windows at the moment.

I doubt that will change with Vista, but it could as most, if not all, new hardware/software is built in conjunction with Microsoft. Linux is always playing "catch up" in that sense.

Thus it is possible, if my needs change, I will use Microsoft. As Rhapsody said though they would have to be awfully big needs.



The inevitable happens. My sanity finally leaves me entirely, and I become clinically insane. I buy Windows Vista Home Premium, and are certified the next day.

I'm pretty convinced this will happen some day, but until then, I'm happy with Kubuntu.

I prefer Arch Linux these days, but same difference.

But if my needs change best to keep an open mind regarding the solution.

WE SHOULD ALL KEEP AN OPEN MIND

otherwise we are, in the end, no better then goodmore.

missmoondog
August 20th, 2006, 03:00 AM
i posted a thread just about exactly the same as yours about 10 months or so ago, just before the release of breezy. after getting blown off, jumped on, and everything else, i stuck it out with a lot of help from the folks here and now i have 4 strictly kubuntu dapper boxes, 1 strictly ubuntu dapper box (these are mine) and there are also 2 dual booting machines, xp/kubuntu and w2k/kubuntu boxes in the house!

oh! i also don't give a rip about when or if vista ever comes out either. ;)

prizrak
August 20th, 2006, 03:44 AM
What is this average or casual user you speak of? I never heard of one. Get this straight everyone, Linux is hard to set up (well so is Windows) but is not hard to use. Want examples? Here are two.
1) I have a mother who has a Ph.D in Biology, BS in Psychology and working on an MS in Education. As you can tell while an impressive background in science she is not a computer expert by any means. (Sure education doesn't make you computer illiterate but she really is, doesn't know how to do anything beyond web/e-mail and office).

I got a new laptop and gave her my old one. Now I don't have the time for an OS reinstall so I just created an account for her on the system. She never used Firefox, or Thunderbird or Evolution before. She picked it up w/o a single issue she was checking her e-mail and browsing the web.

Could she have set it up on her own? Yes she could, would it take her time and effort (more so than me)? Yes it would. However it takes no time to figure out how to use a different program that does the same thing as something esle you already now.

2) My father is a DBA by trade, he is fairly adept at computers but has never actually used Linux. When it comes to general computer administration I am miles ahead of him (same as him being miles ahead of me in dbase administration). This morning it took him 10 minutes to setup Evolution (which he never used before) to work with my mother's e-mail account. Upon realizing Evolution sucked he did the same with Thunderbird (which he also never used before). It took him a total of about 15 minutes to do those things (didn't have to look for e-mail server info the second time).

What does this show? Linux is not difficult to use but it does have it's audience.

The web/e-mail/office home user crowd (office in the enterprise depends on alot of stuff made for MS Office so it's different) will love Linux as long as someone sets it up for them the same way OEM's setup Windows.

The gamer crowd will hate Linux, it's a pain to set up the games that do work on it even worse with those that require wine/cedega. If something like STEAM would be ported to Linux it would of course change but not for now.

The WINDOWS (emphasiz added) power user crowd will hate (and do) Linux with a passion. They know way too much about Windows to be able to go to a system where they know nothing. If anyone ever had an injury that required them to stay in bed for a long time (I have) they will understand what that's like. Re-Learning to walk sux.

Professional programmers, depending on the language of choice might not care what OS to work on. Java, Perl, Python, to some extent C++ are platform independent. Those who are Windows developers will of course not be able to work on Linux.

Administrators - Linux forever! I have been charged with a few projects at work and they would be much easier if I had Linux as the underlying OS instead of Windows. Generally speaking Linux administration is much easier than Windows and there are more out of the box tools available for scripting.

There are of course other groups but this should suffice to illustrate my point. Also Linux as a whole does not have a goal of taking over the world. We would be happy with a large enough market share so that hardware would have a little penguin icon on a box next to the Windows and OS X logo's. Individual distributions (especially the commercial ones) might prefer a 90% market share but not the entirety of Linux.

As Mohamed (I apologize if I misspelled the name, I'm not a muslim but love the quote) said, "Faith is a matter of choice". Linux is the same, it is a matter of choice we are not forcing anyone to use our system. That is the difference from MS and Apple that I am proud of.

Super King
August 20th, 2006, 04:09 AM
We must sticky prizrak's reply here, for it is the truth.

At this point, Linux is ready for those folks who pretty much exclusively do email/office tasks, and who have their computer setup by an OEM or employer (which is surprisingly quite a few people). For power users/gamers, the lack of software support is still the big issue.



The web/e-mail/office home user crowd (office in the enterprise depends on alot of stuff made for MS Office so it's different) will love Linux as long as someone sets it up for them the same way OEM's setup Windows.

The gamer crowd will hate Linux, it's a pain to set up the games that do work on it even worse with those that require wine/cedega. If something like STEAM would be ported to Linux it would of course change but not for now.

The WINDOWS (emphasiz added) power user crowd will hate (and do) Linux with a passion. They know way too much about Windows to be able to go to a system where they know nothing. If anyone ever had an injury that required them to stay in bed for a long time (I have) they will understand what that's like. Re-Learning to walk sux.

fuscia
August 20th, 2006, 07:20 AM
fuscia:

If interested you can run the vista beta. Last time I looked it was freely available from Microsoft (you did, of course have to register with Microsoft which I chose not to do).



nah, i won't use microsoft again until MEse comes out.

Emerzen
August 21st, 2006, 02:18 AM
CAN'T..STOP.....MY...SELF....UGHHH

Linux, FOSS, Ubuntu IS a sucesss...even if they all died tomorrow, it's a success.

latebeat
August 21st, 2006, 07:07 PM
Fonts in Ubuntu LOOK LIKE CRAP! Seriously. If there was any reason for me to go back full-time to Windows, fonts would be it. Of course, there's no chance of that, so I guess I'll just have to suffer until it's fixed.

I'll vouch to that!!! Fonts in Linux are just CRAP!! Check this out (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=180647) however. It made my fonts much better.

I also have to admit that linux be it ubuntu, red hat or suse simply needs A LOT of user input and time to make things work. It's fine when people have time and don't work (yet) full time like me, I guess! If I was working full time and got home 6 or 7pm dead tired and had just a couple hrs for myself I don't think I would have the same patience to go through 1000 posts, and configs just to install the new ATI drivers just to go back to the previous ones because I found out that they simply refuse to work (just an example, which happened btw). Sometimes you just want things to work, not because you're too lazy not because you love Bill Gates, but because u don't have the time to spare.
I understand that... It makes me appreciate the time that I have for myself even more (conclusion: being a student owns! lol!)

aysiu
August 21st, 2006, 07:13 PM
I also have to admit that linux be it ubuntu, red hat or suse simply needs A LOT of user input and time to make things work. More precisely, any operating system you install from scratch requires more work than operating systems you buy preinstalled and preconfigured.

Yossarian
August 21st, 2006, 07:58 PM
Originaly posted by fuscia
nah, i won't use microsoft again until MEse comes out.


Windows ME Special Edition? That would be like a dream come true for me.

@prizrak: Good list.

edrodgers731
August 21st, 2006, 08:15 PM
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!! That's a good one.

clefmusic
August 22nd, 2006, 10:44 AM
I stumbled across this post after a Google search for 'why bother to install linux' (as Kubuntu failed to detect my Conexant PCI modem, this was done using Windows with VMware Server installed, Kubuntu running as a virtual machine).

I certainly won't be using Linux. It proclaims to be superior, and that, et al, M$ is just a moneygrabbing would-be monopoly. On the contrary, I suggest that Linux uses Windows to the point where, if Windows was not in widespread use it would have very little or no presence at all. It relies on Windows to publicise, promulgate and distribute itself.

Scenario 1. I want to try Linux - I surf the web (Windows), download the ISO (Windows), burn the CD (Windows), partition the drive (running from CD is not good) (Windows). Need I point out at this juncture that all the above would have been very difficult or impossible without, you guessed it - Windows.

Scenario 2. I acquire a Linux OS CD from a shop and put a brand new HDD in my PC (assuming Linux will recognize a RAW drive - I haven't tried it) then boot from the CD. Kubuntu installs, but fails to detect the ADSL modem (amogst quite a few other devices, including a generic Intel AC97 onboard soundcard (incredible).

Oops, what to do now - as the major source of support - the Internet - is not available. Well, I have 2 choices - back to the shop to get a Linux manual - complete with a very large box of driver CD's enclosed (just the one, please). I imagine the shopkeeper will be confused, frightened or suddenly have a lot of other things to do.

Or, I can go back to the reviled Windows to bail Linux out.

QED.

Lord Illidan
August 22nd, 2006, 10:52 AM
I stumbled across this post after a Google search for 'why bother to install linux' (as Kubuntu failed to detect my Conexant PCI modem, this was done using Windows with VMware Server installed, Kubuntu running as a virtual machine).

I certainly won't be using Linux. It proclaims to be superior, and that, et al, M$ is just a moneygrabbing would-be monopoly. On the contrary, I suggest that Linux uses Windows to the point where, if Windows was not in widespread use it would have very little or no presence at all. It relies on Windows to publicise, promulgate and distribute itself.

Scenario 1. I want to try Linux - I surf the web (Windows), download the ISO (Windows), burn the CD (Windows), partition the drive (running from CD is not good) (Windows). Need I point out at this juncture that all the above would have been very diffucult or impossible without, you guessed it - Windows.

Ok, so how do you expect to download a cd or surf the web without an operating system, be it windows, mac or Linux? This first scenario of yours is completely invalid, as I can surf the web, download the iso and burn the cd and partition it from Linux or Mac OSX.

Running from CD is good, it's just slower, which is to be expected, as cds are slower than harddrives.


Scenario 2. I acquire a Linux OS CD from a shop and put a brand new HDD in my PC (assuming Linux will recognize a RAW drive - I haven't tried it) then boot from the CD. Kubuntu installs, but fails to detect the ADSL modem (amogst quite a few other devices, including a generic Intel AC97 onboard soundcard (incredible).
Linux will recognise a RAW drive. All it needs is to format it.
We have no idea what your ADSL modem is, how in heck do you expect us to help you with it.
People report success with AC97 onboard soundcards. heck, my very own AC97 soundcard works with Linux. Is it possible that you made an error yourself, or being the all knowing arrogant person you are, you didn't?


[QED]Oops, what to do now - as the major source of support - the Internet - is not available. Well, I have 2 choices - back to the shop to get a Linux manual - complete with a very large box of driver CD's enclosed (just the one, please). I imagine the shopkeeper will be confused, frightened or suddenly have a lot of other things to do.

Or, I can go back to the reviled Windows to bail Linux out.

QED.
Buy a better adsl modem? DO NOT BUY USB ADSL MODEMS, these are the major problem. The manufacturers do not provide Linux drivers, nor do they release specifications so Linux developers can release their own device drivers.

You haven't proved anything except that instead of trying to make things work, you waste your valuable time rediculing Linux.

clefmusic
August 22nd, 2006, 12:55 PM
Ok, so how do you expect to download a cd or surf the web without an operating system, be it windows, mac or Linux? This first scenario of yours is completely invalid, as I can surf the web, download the iso and burn the cd and partition it from Linux or Mac OSX.

You're missing the point, 87% of users use Windows (Wiki), therefore the vast bulk of Linux first-timers will use that OS to launch Linux (discounting cover CD's etc.). How about you?


...or being the all knowing arrogant person you are

Pity you can't post without this sort of thing. I had hoped to respond via your blog, but it doesn't work.


Buy a better adsl modem?

I shouldn't need to buy anything - the OS can reasonably be expected to detect a piece of hardware, even if the driver is not immediately available. However, this is a very common modem and its absence from included drivers on the CD is inexcusable. I am not alone, one expert reporter tried to get a common soundcard to work, having tracked down the driver. 8 distros of Linux later he gave up.

aysiu
August 22nd, 2006, 04:21 PM
On the contrary, I suggest that Linux uses Windows to the point where, if Windows was not in widespread use it would have very little or no presence at all. Which is really just speculation. If Windows didn't own the market, who knows what people would be using... maybe they would be using Linux.
It relies on Windows to publicise, promulgate and distribute itself.Many people do use Windows to get rid of Windows, but Windows is not necessary to get rid of Windows... and people did not have to be using Windows in the first place, especially if they bought Linux preinstalled (http://www.system76.com).

All you're really saying is that a change to a new lifestyle is often dependent on the old lifestyle, but that's a given, isn't it? I mean, in order to decide to become a vegan, most of the time you had to have lived on meat products before that to get to the point to decide to be a vegan. In order to decide to get married, you had to be single first. Does that mean that marriage owes something to singleness or that veganism owes something to meat products or that Linux owes something to Windows?

Should now-mentally-healthy people who were previously abused as children thank their abusers because those abusers helped them become who they are? BS.

All you're really saying is that most people used Windows before switching to Linux, which really just amounts to saying most people use Windows.

Once again, the point you're missing--you don't need Windows in order to install or use Linux. You can buy a blank computer, build your own, buy Linux preloaded on a computer, install Linux on a Mac. You do not need Windows.

cstudent
August 22nd, 2006, 04:31 PM
We should keep track of these post and give an award each year for the most ridiculous one.


Linux drives a major portion of the servers on the net.
Linux drives a major portion of video games found in arcades. (believe it or not)
Linux drives many embedded systems.


Useless? Not hardly.

spockrock
August 22nd, 2006, 06:31 PM
windows me was/is the bees knees, I still run it :rolleyes:

prizrak
August 22nd, 2006, 06:34 PM
@prizrak: Good list.

The credit should really go to Aysiu though, he had a shorter version of the list on his site www.psychocats.net that inspired me to create this one. The sys admin part was from my own experience tho :)

fuscia
August 22nd, 2006, 07:17 PM
windows me was/is the bees knees, I still run it :rolleyes:

best thing microsoft ever came up with. it had all the security holes of xp, yet without all the oafish attempts to fix it. 'run and gun'!

prizrak
August 22nd, 2006, 07:35 PM
I got a reason not to get Vista. It ain't out yet!

insane_alien
August 22nd, 2006, 07:46 PM
i'm 1 program and 3 family member conversions away from ditching XP all together

spockrock
August 23rd, 2006, 05:33 AM
best thing microsoft ever came up with. it had all the security holes of xp, yet without all the oafish attempts to fix it. 'run and gun'!

hahahhahahahaha..........I could imagine MS at the time........oh man dudes another flaw in ME, what is that number 23 857?? At this point it will be easier to make another OS.....Agreed....And Windows 2000 was conceived.

prizrak
August 23rd, 2006, 02:00 PM
hahahhahahahaha..........I could imagine MS at the time........oh man dudes another flaw in ME, what is that number 23 857?? At this point it will be easier to make another OS.....Agreed....And Windows 2000 was conceived.
Ummmmmmm...... Windows 2000 came out before ME. In fact the reason why ME was released was because 2000 failed at what it was supposed to do, it was supposed to be what XP is now. 2K was supposed to bring together 9x and NT architectures but for some reason didn't. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details since I never ran ME only 2K and it seemed to handle all the gaming and stuff just fine.

kernelpanicked
August 23rd, 2006, 03:21 PM
Ummmmmmm...... Windows 2000 came out before ME. In fact the reason why ME was released was because 2000 failed at what it was supposed to do, it was supposed to be what XP is now. 2K was supposed to bring together 9x and NT architectures but for some reason didn't. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details since I never ran ME only 2K and it seemed to handle all the gaming and stuff just fine.


Not true at all. ME released several months ahead of 2000, because Microsoft couldn't finish 2000 by their release date. They found it a better option to release the beast that is Windows ME to their unsuspecting customers. Check the release dates for yourself.

References: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_2000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_me

spockrock
August 23rd, 2006, 10:52 PM
Not true at all. ME released several months ahead of 2000, because Microsoft couldn't finish 2000 by their release date. They found it a better option to release the beast that is Windows ME to their unsuspecting customers. Check the release dates for yourself.

References: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_2000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_me

no dude prizrak is right, it says it in the wikipedia articles. 200-> Feb. 2000, ME ->Oct/sept 2000.

I am just an idiot :P. Well replace 2000 with xp in my original comment and all is right.

ThirdWorld
August 24th, 2006, 12:58 AM
Have fun trying out new viruses and spending money, while us Linux users will have fun playing with new technology:D

ammmm... yesterday my computer crashed because i downloaded the latest oficial X update. But that is not the problem. The problem is that instead of prompt me to a simple graphic interface and offer me a end user solution (eg. xorg have crashed with the latest update. ubuntu recomend to downgraded. Do you wish to downgrad it now?) it just give me a list full of shi*t that i dont care about. All that i cared that morning was to work on my pc. and i was unable to work with my computer and send faxes and email my clients that morning.
Of course this forum is full of nerds who are unable to understand the simple end user who are the bulk of computer users in the world.

So sure play with all cutting edge technology when you are unable to offer a incredible stupid and simple solution when X crash. It remind me of my old windows 98 back in the day.

Vorian
August 24th, 2006, 03:11 AM
It remind me of my old windows 98 back in the day.

It remind me of mistake.

richbarna
August 25th, 2006, 01:03 AM
nah, i won't use microsoft again until MEse comes out.

I'd go for an ME-se-Xp-SP2-Beta-Pro :D

Stormy Eyes
August 25th, 2006, 02:55 AM
I agree with 23Meg, but the attitude must change, you guys don't realize that the public want

The public does not matter.

Yossarian
August 25th, 2006, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by Stormy Eyes
The public does not matter.

Agreed. If Joe Six Pack doesn't like Ubuntu he can make his own OS out of beer cans or something.

aysiu
August 25th, 2006, 03:05 AM
The public doesn't matter to Yossarian or Stormy Eyes, but if Mark Shuttleworth isn't talking out his ***, the public matters to him.

https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1

Yossarian
August 25th, 2006, 03:21 AM
Originaly posted by aysiu
The public doesn't matter to Yossarian or Stormy Eyes, but if Mark Shuttleworth isn't talking out his ***, the public matters to him.


Mr. Shuttleworth is a rich man, and needs something to do besides swimming in his money vault.

You're right, I mostly don't give a damn what people do with their computer. However, I know you do, so I'll refrain for polluting your thread any more.

I posted cause I thought my beer can comment was funny, although in retrospect it isn't. It's pretty dumb. Must be the alcohol. Ahh, the wrath of grapes.

aysiu
August 25th, 2006, 03:35 AM
However, I know you do, so I'll refrain for polluting your thread any more. God forbid this should be "my" thread, and you're not polluting it at all--you expressed your opinion. I just amended your statement with my own.

Yossarian
August 25th, 2006, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by aysiu
God forbid this should be "my" thread, and you're not polluting it at all--you expressed your opinion. I just amended your statement with my own.


OK, head's on straight now, so let's take another crack at this. As for it being your thread, I thought you were the OP for some reason. I realize now this is not the case.

Back on topic: making Ubuntu ready for the public. I have no strong feelings on the subject, myself. I object to the armchair marketing and business experts, plotting the Linux revolution while drinking absinth in an Internet Cafe. Nothing ever comes of these masturbation threads, which is why I was planning on pulling out. Not because I thought you had made fun of my opinion.

Also, the ridiculous way in which we let these "Dear John, I'm going back to Windows" threads push our buttons. The endless hand-wringing is pointless.

Anyways, as I said, some care about this ****. I don't. I'll let the above be my coda, and wish you all a merry thread.

poetlost
August 26th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Greetings all...

Yesterday I had the bright idea of installing Ubuntu Linux on my machine and set up clearing an entire 10 GB partition for this purpose. Once I did that I went through the installation process - which was quite simple by the way; the age old notion about Linux being very tough to install was blown away - and I booted into my new OS. I've used Ubuntu through the Live CD so I was quite familiar with where to go and what to do.

It was at this point that I hit upon a few snags and I am writing this in the hope that some of you tech geeks might be able to help. Here are my problems thus far:

1. Windows partitions are not shown. I've been told to 'mount' these partitions, but I have no idea what that means and how to best get about such a task.

2. DVD is not being played. I inserted my RHCP concert DVD hoping to see how the built -in DVD player handles DVDs and I was told that it couldn't read it. I can , using the Explorer read the file structure of the DVD. No playback. Thinking it was just that disc, I inserted my Fawlty Towers DVD one at a time. Not only was there no playback, this time I couldn't read the file structure either. On one occasion, the DVD wouldn't even eject until I restarted the PC.

3. I have a Prolink Hurricane 8000 modem that I purchased at a Sri Lanka Telecom (SLT) Teleshop when applying for an ADSL connection. I've been told that there are third-party drivers created for this particular modem and I found one here (opendrivers.com/driver/226120/fida-prolink-hurricane-8000-driver-2004-08-04-linux-free-download.html). I downloaded it and tried installing it, but I can't for the life of me figure out how. Anyone with prior experience with installing the said modem on Ubuntu?

4. My monitor is capable of handling resolutions of up to 1280*1024 while on Windows mode. In Ubuntu, I can't go beyond 1024*768.

I am urgently in need of help here so any assistance will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Additional system information: I am using Ubuntu 5.10 on a P III 800 MHz PC with 256MB RAM. The Windows OS that I am dual-booting with Ubuntu is Windows 2000 Service Pack 4.

djsroknrol
August 26th, 2006, 05:46 PM
Answers for 1 & 2 can be found with a simple search..all the answers you need are there...#3 I can't help with...not familiar with that modem...#4 can be fixed with a simple edit of your xorg.conf file located in /etc/X11

kaamos
August 26th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Hello and welcome to the forums!

First of all I would recommend running the newer ubuntu 6.06 (=June 2006) instead of 5.10.

For you problems:
1) A security default, to change see http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper#Windows

2) Legal issues, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats

4) https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FixVideoResolutionHowto?highlight=%28xorg.conf%29

mdecler2
August 28th, 2006, 04:23 AM
Dude your funny:) Enjoy ripping and burning your dvds and cds in vista when you take this into consideration:

http://stopdrmnow.org/

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/05/who_owns_your_c.html

http://www.againsttcpa.com/

http://www.defectivebydesign.org/en/about

http://www.eff.org/IP/digitalvideo/

Good Luck with vista;)

I had no idea any of this was happening...our rights seem at stake here!

So many people, students, kids, adults, will be expecting a new Windows platform with more of the same plus a few added features...so many people I know download music via Apple iTunes...they have no idea what Digital Restrictions Management or Trusted Computing Platform Alliance is!?


Windows users buying new hardware with the new Vista OS will expect a few applications to work as on there old machine, and by that time they will have already bought the hardware that will help lock monopolic and trust-like alliances into place.

More publicising needs to be done! It is possible that getting more people educated about TCPA will make Ubuntu more desirable for the common user given the hardware they have now, but most importantly, will help secure our rights by not supporting TCPA hardware companies.

Am I cracked? Shouldn't we stop laughing about this and do some definitive publicising? I am no longer the happy computer enthusiast but wary, distrustful, and cagey...I don't know what else to say.

Vexmaster
August 28th, 2006, 04:45 AM
No sound in Java. I could live with this if it was off all the time or on all the time. It comes and goes for long periods of time. Numerous posts in these forums have gone unanswered about it. I see other people posting the problem also. I need sound on the Internet.

No way to play sound from multiple sources at the same time. When the sound in Java is working (ha) it would be nice to listen to a little music in the back round. Scratch that. Even when the sound in Java isn't working all the other apps still think it is and won't produce sound.

I need a way to rip a DVD with up to date ripping technology. The new Sony protection keeeps me going back to DVDFab Decrypter on my Windows machine all the time. K9copy is not bad until you deal with the newest Sony ****, but it is not the answer. Running DVDFab in Wine sucks. Crash Crash Crash.

And while i'm on the subject of k9copy, Why is my system still using an older version? I installed through Synaptic. If the idea of installing through Synaptic was to make things easier and keep things updated it FAILS. Stop giving me new screen savers, and update my freakin software.

I know Ubuntu is free. I know the people that release it invest a whole bunch of time and money. But until I can the Basics with out a ******* **** load of time and effort from me, I'll have to give my money to $$$$$soft. And that is why Linux , Open Source, Ubuntu, Red Hat or what ever you want to call it will fail. The casual user is the biggest chunk of the market, and we want **** to work without ******* with it every night. If my truck made me look under the hood evry morning I would slam it into a tree and get a new one with the insurance money.

My rant is over ................


Later TROLL!!

Jacks0n
August 28th, 2006, 04:48 AM
I see all the time reviews about ubuntu, and how it's so easy, but I really don't get it. Anyway, this is more like a rant from frustration about what I can and can't do in ubuntu.

I installed it, and sure it's very easy, and quick. Everything except my mic and webcam worked out of the box (acer 8204). But it was painfully slow. So I decided to compile a new kernel. But then I forgot to customise a few things up, so I un-installed it, and re-installed it. Great. No problems. Except it did absolutly nothing, becides from the fact it got rid of the driver for my wireless (oh, and "uname -i" shows the same old driver). Fair enough. So I install ndiswrapper. But there's no package for ubuntu. Ok, so I compile it. Then it asks to delete the old files, which I didn't even know I was using. I tried no, and it did nothing. So I tried yes, and it gives me an error (yes, I was root).

Another thing is it only sees 1 cpu, which is really frustrating. The video sucks also, and I'm still using the mesa driver, and I (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=143283&page=1) have (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=189874) tried (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-187634.html) every (http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/ubuntu-help/68776-please-help-me-get-3d-acceleration-working-yet-another-ati-issue.html) how-to/forum (http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/suse-linux-help/67445-3d-acceleration-troubles.html) I (http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/suse-linux-help/67579-radeon-9800-pro-not-working-suse-10-1-a.html) could find, and they didn't work. The thing is, this is my 3rd time I've installed ubuntu! I always had problems. It always seemed to keep crashing, other times the mouse would just freeze without notice, other times I'd have a few tabs open in firefox, and it'd just close (very important things!). I have a laptop, and whenever I close the case, the screen goes black .. nothing will fix it either, like moving the mouse or something. Even if I restart xorg, it gives me a screen with a bunch of random colours. And basic things, like opening a text editor, or terminal, take about a good 5 seconds to do it.

The thing is, in windows on my laptop, you flick a switch, and the wireless is on. You double click some .exe, and your video works. Everyone's always telling others how easy ubuntu is, and how ready linux is for the desktop, but do they expect regular users to compile things? I had to help a friend the other day to install a web-cam, and she had to plug it in, put a cd in, and click on "install drivers and software". If someone can't do that, I'm certain they won't know how to install anything in ubuntu. Sure, "it'll be in the repository" .. but for me, most weren't.

I'm just so complexed as to why everyone says it's easy. They're probally comparing it to earlier versions, perhaps years ago. Then I'd agree. But compared to OSX or windows? I don't think so.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to actually use it .. it's just every thing I do has problems. Literally, everything .. so far. I'll keep ubuntu on here, but won't use it till edgy. It seems like at least a portion of people switching are just happy to get away from MS, and are willing to do alot of extra work to get there (I realise this is only initially).

aysiu
August 28th, 2006, 05:16 AM
I'm just so complexed as to why everyone says it's easy. They're probally comparing it to earlier versions, perhaps years ago. Then I'd agree. But compared to OSX or windows? I don't think so. The answer's simple: not everyone's had the same experience you've had. You had a bad experience and are confused as to why people say it's easy. I had a good experience and used to be confused as to why people say it's hard.

The truth is that experience varies--and that's true for all operating systems... but especially for those you install yourself. Next time buy a System 76 computer (http://www.system76.com/)--it'll be a lot less of a headache.

I didn't buy a System 76--I just installed Ubuntu on my eMachines desktop, and everything worked straightaway. Guess I was lucky, and you weren't.

terminatingzero
August 28th, 2006, 05:35 AM
I had no idea any of this was happening...our rights seem at stake here!

So many people, students, kids, adults, will be expecting a new Windows platform with more of the same plus a few added features...so many people I know download music via Apple iTunes...they have no idea what Digital Restrictions Management or Trusted Computing Platform Alliance is!?


Windows users buying new hardware with the new Vista OS will expect a few applications to work as on there old machine, and by that time they will have already bought the hardware that will help lock monopolic and trust-like alliances into place.

More publicising needs to be done! It is possible that getting more people educated about TCPA will make Ubuntu more desirable for the common user given the hardware they have now, but most importantly, will help secure our rights by not supporting TCPA hardware companies.

Am I cracked? Shouldn't we stop laughing about this and do some definitive publicising? I am no longer the happy computer enthusiast but wary, distrustful, and cagey...I don't know what else to say.


I started a thread for the purpose of getting more info out to Ubuntu users in the backyard "Why you should fight Microsoft DRM and Trusted Computing" it has some more links to info. The worst part about all of this is that I have contacted my state senator, representative, and governor as well as all local and many National media outlets without so much as a we recieved your letter or we recieved your e-mail; total media silence.

kernelpanicked
August 28th, 2006, 05:57 AM
Wait a second. You can't manage to get your wireless working, but you're recompiling your kernel? I hate to be a jerk but you gotta be able to swim before you pull off the water wings and jump into the ocean. My advice (take it or leave it), is to reload your box, install the 686 kernel, which will see your second proc, and hold off on customizing for a while. You can't bork a system and then judge it by your borked mess.

atrus123
August 28th, 2006, 05:57 AM
It seems like at least a portion of people switching are just happy to get away from MS, and are willing to do alot of extra work to get there (I realise this is only initially).

Hmm.. sounds like you had a tough time of it. Bummer. I guess I'm one of the fortunate ones. The only thing I didn't have working out of the box was wireless (but ndiswrapper fixed that (btw: sudo apt-get install ndiswrapper-utils)).

Have you played with the latest SuSE? If you want another really great out-of-the-box distro, you should give it a shot.

Adamant1988
August 28th, 2006, 06:09 AM
why is this in the testimonials section?

DoctorMO
August 28th, 2006, 12:39 PM
Your experence may vary, at least you tried ubuntu. but don't give up on Linux just yet it won't stop improving and some day it'll solve all the problems you've had. (although it would go a bit faster if you helped)

Anonii
August 28th, 2006, 12:51 PM
I see all the time reviews about ubuntu, and how it's so easy, but I really don't get it. Anyway, this is more like a rant from frustration about what I can and can't do in ubuntu.

I installed it, and sure it's very easy, and quick. Everything except my mic and webcam worked out of the box (acer 8204). But it was painfully slow. So I decided to compile a new kernel. But then I forgot to customise a few things up, so I un-installed it, and re-installed it. Great. No problems. Except it did absolutly nothing, becides from the fact it got rid of the driver for my wireless (oh, and "uname -i" shows the same old driver). Fair enough. So I install ndiswrapper. But there's no package for ubuntu. Ok, so I compile it. Then it asks to delete the old files, which I didn't even know I was using. I tried no, and it did nothing. So I tried yes, and it gives me an error (yes, I was root).

Another thing is it only sees 1 cpu, which is really frustrating. The video sucks also, and I'm still using the mesa driver, and I (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=143283&page=1) have (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=189874) tried (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-187634.html) every (http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/ubuntu-help/68776-please-help-me-get-3d-acceleration-working-yet-another-ati-issue.html) how-to/forum (http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/suse-linux-help/67445-3d-acceleration-troubles.html) I (http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/suse-linux-help/67579-radeon-9800-pro-not-working-suse-10-1-a.html) could find, and they didn't work. The thing is, this is my 3rd time I've installed ubuntu! I always had problems. It always seemed to keep crashing, other times the mouse would just freeze without notice, other times I'd have a few tabs open in firefox, and it'd just close (very important things!). I have a laptop, and whenever I close the case, the screen goes black .. nothing will fix it either, like moving the mouse or something. Even if I restart xorg, it gives me a screen with a bunch of random colours. And basic things, like opening a text editor, or terminal, take about a good 5 seconds to do it.

The thing is, in windows on my laptop, you flick a switch, and the wireless is on. You double click some .exe, and your video works. Everyone's always telling others how easy ubuntu is, and how ready linux is for the desktop, but do they expect regular users to compile things? I had to help a friend the other day to install a web-cam, and she had to plug it in, put a cd in, and click on "install drivers and software". If someone can't do that, I'm certain they won't know how to install anything in ubuntu. Sure, "it'll be in the repository" .. but for me, most weren't.

I'm just so complexed as to why everyone says it's easy. They're probally comparing it to earlier versions, perhaps years ago. Then I'd agree. But compared to OSX or windows? I don't think so.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to actually use it .. it's just every thing I do has problems. Literally, everything .. so far. I'll keep ubuntu on here, but won't use it till edgy. It seems like at least a portion of people switching are just happy to get away from MS, and are willing to do alot of extra work to get there (I realise this is only initially).

Do you also listen to My Chemical Romance or Funeral for a Friend?

fuscia
August 28th, 2006, 01:30 PM
so, i put a five pound bag of sugar in the gas tank of my new honda and now, the damn thing won't run. i'm going back to fords. rant over.

GarethMB
August 28th, 2006, 01:36 PM
so, i put a five pound bag of sugar in the gas tank of my new honda and now, the damn thing won't run. i'm going back to fords. rant over.
Oh, Fuscia you are silly. What you do that for?

mips
August 28th, 2006, 01:37 PM
Jacks0n,

The only thread I saw you asking for help was with the kernel compilation when I did a search on your posts.

Have you tried asking for help by starting a thread for each issue you have ? In those threads state the problem crearly and tell people the exact hardware you have + maybe what chipsets are in use for the specific piece of hardware.

Just an idea, you can then come back and post the links here in your rant.

As far as I can tell from google everything should work fine except for the webcam which will be supported soon via the spca5xx (http://mxhaard.free.fr/spca5xx.html) driver.

Also:
http://blog.elinc.ca/rod/?cat=9
http://www.jinnis.se/acer8204/
http://www.students.ncl.ac.uk/a.j.mee/blog/index.php/2006/05/10/acer-travelmate-8204wlmi-with-gentoo/
http://mxhaard.free.fr/spca5xx.html
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1432477

Google for acer 8204 ubuntu

fuscia
August 28th, 2006, 01:43 PM
Oh, Fuscia you are silly. What you do that for?

i didn't have enough flour for a cake.

PryGuy
August 28th, 2006, 02:17 PM
For God's sake! My everything on all my machines was recognized correctly under Dapper!!! I have absolutely no problems with this release! 2 D-Link Wi-Fi cards (PCI and PCIMCIA) work like a charm! And Dapper is stable on all my PCs also! Saying stable I mean stable. Yes, WindowsXP is a stable OS but franky I don't see Ubuntu is any worse in terms of stability. My dad uses Ubuntu as a primary desktop OS and he's not a computer geek mind you!

Everything "works painfully slow" for you and you decide it's the kernel? That's funny! First of all, Ubuntu runs at least as fast as WindowsXP if not faster on my machines. So, such things simply mean that you have buggy hardware. In that case WindowsXP will not work any better for you! I can accept that there is a hardware problem that makes Ubuntu behave strangely on your hardware, but I repeat it's an exclusion, yet a very rare exclusion!

I really have no problems with multimedia under Ubuntu. I can play MP3 music, MPEG4/DivX and DVDs under Ubuntu. Doom3 and Quake4 work fine for me also!:D

You just don't want to spend your time on Ubuntu, do you? Well, get back to Windows with all it's bugs (well, forgive me but I'm sure Windows is far more buggy), viruses and spyware then.

atrus123
August 28th, 2006, 02:19 PM
The only thread I saw you asking for help was with the kernel compilation when I did a search on your posts.


If you don't ask questions either in a forum or over an irc channel, than you're almost missing the point of Linux and the importance of the Linux community.

Back when I was just installing Gentoo for the first time, I spent most of my time on the Gentoo forums, searching threads and asking my own questions. Were it not for those forums, I never would have gotten a lot of stuff installed.

jdong
August 28th, 2006, 02:26 PM
First and foremost, I'm sorry you had such a rough experience getting Ubuntu working on your computer.


Reminder to everyone in this thread: I won't point any fingers today, but be polite!


As others have mentioned, not everyone's experience with Ubuntu has had so many setbacks. Unfortunately there are still combinations of hardware that do not work well under Linux, just like there are combinations of hardware that do not work well under Windows or any other OS.

Now, with that said, compiling a kernel was probably not the correct way to fix your problems, and as you noted yourself it caused even more trouble.


As others have pointed out, one of the best parts of the Ubuntu experiences is us here -- the community. If you are willing to put in a bit of effort, we'll help you get up and running. Ubuntu is definitely not just about what comes on that CD, you have not experienced Ubuntu/Linux until you've gotten some help at a forum or mailing list or IRC channel.

bruce89
August 28th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Reminder to everyone in this thread: I won't point any fingers today, but be polite!

I'll point my finger at myself, sorry. I just get fed up of these attention seeking threads.

djsroknrol
August 28th, 2006, 02:33 PM
I'm sorry as well..my experience with Linux and Ubuntu (and now Kubuntu) have been nothing less that a dream...

Not every machine is the same, and results do vary...sounds like you really should heed everyone's advice and clean up your compy and start fresh. Patience is a virtue, and with some work, you could have a great rig.

Gijith
August 28th, 2006, 02:33 PM
jacks0n,
Thanks for the feedback/rant.

Everyone Else,
Instead of jumping on a well intentioned individual who had a rough time with ubuntu, let's try and make some good. We've been given a lot of information by this man. It'd be cool and very productive if we looked at threads like this as valuable feedback instead of annoyances. What have we learned? There needs to be more information, in the forums, FAQs, wikis, discouraging new users from recompiling their kernels.

.t.
August 28th, 2006, 03:06 PM
Things that are easy are the same. Things that are always the same are boring. Things thare are not easy are not boring. It's simple algebra! Do you not challenge yourself, O ye of little faith!

Senshi
August 28th, 2006, 03:30 PM
When I read threads like this I think I got lucky. I managed to install Ubuntu on my laptop and everything worked out the box, even my wireless. Sure it's not perfect, but neither is any other OS. I mainly used Windows so I was quick to notice the faults of Ubuntu when I first switched. Now the more use Ubuntu the more I see the faults in Windows. No OS is perfect, and I can accept that. When something doesn't work in Ubuntu I use google or I search the forums. I haven't had a problem I could find the answer to.

Thanks everyone.

prizrak
August 28th, 2006, 04:35 PM
From another Acer user I'm very surprised at you having issues. I got a TravelMate C310 and the only (literally) thing that had to be tweaked was the tablet part. Really as aysiu said any OS you need to install is gonna be a pain, I've destroyed my share of Windows installs.

kernelpanicked
August 28th, 2006, 05:55 PM
Reminder to everyone in this thread: I won't point any fingers today, but be polite!


*Points finger directly at self*

Look I've hosed many systems in my time. Many of them on purpose (see nickname), but never have I completely blown one up and then decided to judge the OS based on my own retardedness and gone on to rant about running back to Windows. Heck the last time I saw a Windows box, it was 3.11. My point here is that people should take responsibility for their own actions, as well as learning to ask the right questions. This guy apparently jumped right into "how can I recompile my kernel?" rather than "how can I get my second proc to show up?". Entirely different questions, as one is a road to absolute disaster for a newbie and the other is one command and a reboot away.

Brunellus
August 28th, 2006, 06:52 PM
so, i put a five pound bag of sugar in the gas tank of my new honda and now, the damn thing won't run. i'm going back to fords. rant over.
this calls for a song:

...."Put the sugar in the tank of the sherriff's car,
Slash the deputy's tires, they won't get very far
When they finally get the word
That there's been a hold up, yeah yeah

So give your I.D. card to the border guard
Yeah, your alias says you're Captain Jean-Luc Picard
Of the United Federation of Planets
But he don't speak English anywaaay--

'Cause everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
So meet me at the mission at midnight, we'll divvy up there.
And everybody knows
That the world is full of stupid people
Well I've got the pistol, so I'll keep the pesos--
Yeah, that seems fair"

-The Refreshments, "Banditos"

pomegranate
August 28th, 2006, 07:16 PM
Well, while we're berating people for giving up and not asking for help, can I direct your attention to this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1428939#post1428939) which asks for some very basic help but hasn't recieved any replies for nearly a whole day... ;)

jdong
August 28th, 2006, 07:39 PM
Dude, you have been getting help, and it's only been a day since you've asked your question. It's not as trivial as it appears and will take time and interaction to diagnose.

Patience :)

sophtpaw
August 28th, 2006, 07:44 PM
An os is about hardware detection/configuration and the package manager in my opinion.

I've seen LInux distros come miles in the last 5 years and improving all the time. If you want to point and click and have the ease of use like windows ubuntu may not be the one. Ubuntu does require some effort still. Differeent distroos focus on different specifics. Some GNU/Linux distros are targeting exactly people like the girl you helped load a cd rom and click on 'install'

In that category, Xandros and Mepis are two examples. Differen't os flavors perform differently on different hardware. So, don't judge a distro on just your spec.

I hear fantastic stuff about Xandros from a functionality perspective. Some criticise it for killing the spirit of free-software, but that is by and by. I believe distros like that have their place in the spectrum of Linux os's.

Do look around at alternatives

hope that helps

jdong
August 28th, 2006, 07:47 PM
Actually, I think Ubuntu is almost as good as it gets when it comes to out-of-the-box functionality. In terms of drivers, Ubuntu is bundled with virtually every driver available to Linux -- free or non-free.

Now, if you're talking about out-of-the-box codec/java support, it's true that it takes a bit of setup to get Ubuntu working with restricted formats, but the RestrictedFormats wiki article is great for that.

KiwiNZ
August 28th, 2006, 07:50 PM
I'll point my finger at myself, sorry. I just get fed up of these attention seeking threads.

Then don't read them. If you choose to read them ,don't be rude

Phantom784
August 28th, 2006, 08:15 PM
Ubuntu worked pretty much perfeclty for me. Well, except for an issue with the graphics card drive that magically fixed itsself when I re-installed. (first installed configured X with the vesa driver, I screwed up X when I tried to switch it to the ati driver, but when I reinstalled, it started witht the ati driver. weird.) sry for the off topic coment there...

however, I have tried to get two of my friends on Ubuntu, but they are both being help back by thier USB wi-fi device (Compex WLU11A) for both, even though it supposedly has linux support. My one friend also got some buffer error when booting the live cd. I'll make new topics for these when I'm feeling less lazy.

So everyone's experience is different. I guess I just got lucky (or my friends were unlucky). If you really want to be sure it'll work easily, buy the hardware for the software. Alot of times this won't work because you already have a Windows pc and don't want to spend money, but planning ahead can solve alot of problems in the future.

Dinerty
August 28th, 2006, 08:38 PM
I feel sorry for the guy, he gave Ubuntu a try and i hope he still carries on battling through the current problems. Ubuntu does detect a huge amount, but obviously it cant detect everything.

It's not linux or Ubuntu's fault its manufacteurs that don't provide the neccessary support for us users

MetalMusicAddict
August 28th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Yet another "I'm going back to windows" thread. ](*,)

prizrak
August 28th, 2006, 09:22 PM
I'm thinking of going back to Windows too. Ubuntu is boring. Damn thing just works :'(

sophtpaw
August 28th, 2006, 09:37 PM
I feel sorry for the guy, he gave Ubuntu a try and i hope he still carries on battling through the current problems. Ubuntu does detect a huge amount, but obviously it cant detect everything.

It's not linux or Ubuntu's fault its manufacteurs that don't provide the neccessary support for us users

Some distros work better than others on a particular piece of hardware and vice versa. That is why there probably isn't a 'best'distro.

i got a reply in xandros forum from a guy who really wanted Ubuntu to work for him, specifically for the language support (spanish) but it just didn't work for him but Xandros finally did. woodsmokeonubuntu (http://forums.xandros.com/viewtopic.php?p=161600#161600)
So, i say its worth trying different distros.

Persoanally, Ubuntu has detected everything i need it to, from my digital camera, wireless pci card and printer. But that is not gonna be the case for every person.

GuiGuy
August 28th, 2006, 09:51 PM
Though goodmore's post is beligerant, I hope the linux gods are listening to these sorts of complaints.

Thank you for that. The frustration of the original poster is as likely as not due to the promises of "Linux for the desktop", which is a long way from reality for those coming from the Windows experience.

I can write in some context regarding these matters as I have to use Windows everyday in my work but would dearly like to offer and OS solution that might be acceptable to my small to medium size business customers.

At home I use Linux as my file server for the computers in our house, including the Windows MCE PC that drives the home entertainment system.

I also use Linux as my personal desktop for internet access - email, browsing, web site maintenance, FTP, usenet. But I do not use it for P2P because I cannot get Peerguardian to work. On Windows, of course, Peerguardian is a doddle to install & set up.

I'd like to use Linux to burn my DVDs. But what's the point when, using K3b, a geewhiz 2GRAM Athlon 3500+, SATA drives, 16X DVD burner, 16X DVD disc combination will only burn at 1.5x to 2.5x? Again, similar hardware on WindowsXP & Nero zaps through burning a 16X disc at max speed. And before anyone tells me which configuration to change on Linux/ K3b, forget it. Been there, done that.

From my Linux PC I cannot print to the printers (popular canon ip3000) in my house because there are no drivers for linux. I am told the only choice is to buy another printer.

I suspect there are hardware & peripheral driver issues that will never be resolved.

And then there is the awful, obfuscated, confusing, frustrating documentation. Or, more often than not, the lack of it. What is it with Linux programmers that they cannot write plain language, easy to follow guides:confused:

Setting up a wireless network card on the Linux box after installing Ubuntu took the best part of an hour, mainly due to a lack of understandable documentation.


Now, before anyone thinks about flaming me I reiterate- I use linux everyday. I enjoy the experience, I can solve most basic to medium problems it throws at me. But as a desktop replacement for Windows or even the MacOS? I don't think so. Of course, as a platform to serve files and for basic internet access, writing etc, yes. If you're willing to get your hands dirty, of course :D


regards

Christmas
August 28th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Too bad newbies just don't understand that Linux is not like Windows (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm), and also that learning to do things in it won't be very easy in the beginning, but was it in Windows? You need patience, read some articles and tutorials, do what tells you there and try to look at Ubuntu/Linux without comparing it with Windows, things get done in other ways in Linux.

prizrak
August 29th, 2006, 02:07 PM
You know what %*%*ing annoys me in Ubuntu? My damn e-mail light (on the comp itself) doesn't turn on when I have e-mail. Forget Ubuntu I'm gonna go back to Windows. Sure there are viruses and spyware but at least a damn light is working! :D

Here is my little rant on Windows. I have to use Windows at work (yes I hate it and wanna switch jobs), but I still bring my Dapper Laptop in because to get online I don't need to be on the corporate domain, just plugged into the network. So I use the desktop that they gave me for nothing but work it doesn't get online for anything but gmail once in a while and the corporate intranet site. I been here for about a month and already got two viruses. One was my fault I left my network share open so w/e. The other one though, UGGGH! It was a trojan that was in the system restore folder and the A/V deleted it 3 *%**ING times because Windows kept restoring it. It was not until I turned off System Restore that it stopped getting there. Where the hell could that trojan have come from? The machine is on a corporate network that is protected by more than one firewall, all e-mail gets scanned by the server (Not that I would even open random attachments). The damn thing still got it, and Windows kept restoring it!