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Compucore
July 11th, 2006, 01:26 AM
I was kind of like you to some extent with the windows 3.1 on up in the gui stuff. In the late 80's and early 90's I was learning the command line from DOS or on a Vax vms in the local college way back when. Since that is what I grew up with back then. ANd most of the linux things that we tend to do in the terminal mode I can understand easier than going through the loop da loop in windows. Where as in the terminal or command line its quick fast and its done and over with. Just found linux more like the old stomping grounds of Vax VMS, and the old dos command lines.

COmpucore



For me, a year and two months. A lot of times people like to make it sound as if you have to be some kind of computer expert to figure out Ubuntu. It took me twenty years to figure out Windows/DOS, and it took me about two months to figure out Ubuntu.

Go figure.

wog
July 11th, 2006, 03:38 AM
Every OS comes with its own learning curve. I suspect what some people are complaining about is they don't want to wrestle with another learning curve. You see these same kinds of complaints whether the OS being learned is Windows or Mac or Linux.

The solution is simple: You want to get into a new OS? Expect a learning curve and get over your old expectations.

GuitarHero
July 11th, 2006, 06:42 AM
Please write to the maker of your network card and complain about linux support. Companies are out to please their customers so they gain more, and if linux is what we want we will get it. More people have to take charge.

OffHand
July 11th, 2006, 07:16 AM
Don't let the door hit you on your way out :)

dmizer
July 11th, 2006, 07:55 AM
I don't know of an easy way to browse for networks on Ubuntu, but if you already know the name of the network you want to connect to, you can put that in the interfaces file.
the only way i'm aware of to scan for a network is via the command line as follows:

sudo iwlist [adapter] scan
that should list all access points in range.

Tom Brokaw
July 11th, 2006, 09:19 AM
i'll thank you to use the correct mispelling of my name.

Done. But only because the girl in your avatar is so pretty.


Yes that is the way most people who like Ubuntu think. But imho people who are just switching to Ubuntu from Windows. The ones that post rants. Want everything to be gui. Because at first, all those people want is Ubuntu to be more windows like so they can figure it out.

I've decided that the CLI is the scapegoat for not being able to get stuff done (for the Windigrants you describe). There are a large number of commands that do a lot of things, some catastrophic (isn't it -rm rf or something?) and it's a hard language to learn. With Windows, you see three options, you click the one that hurts the least, and you usually get a confirmation of some type.

Hmm, had a point when I started this, not sure I can make it now... screw it, bedtime.

benplaut
July 11th, 2006, 10:12 AM
I'm not using Ubuntu anymore either :( I used it for over 7 months and now I have moved to Arch Linux. I tried it at first and didn't like it but I tried it again and it works great and I love it. I plan to try Ubuntu again when Edgy Eft is released.

it's a logical next step, don't feel bad.

I'm using arch, too :cool:

benplaut
July 11th, 2006, 10:17 AM
i'm sick of these posts. Shouldn't they be in testimonials, so i can just ignore them in peace?

tsb
July 11th, 2006, 01:08 PM
No, my point was that with Windows there is no hassle. In any environemt the other languages work great and the fonts are great. It is possible in Ubuntu with a few terminal commands, but my point was that it's too difficult for J6P and the fonts still aren't as nice. ;)

My wife is quite happy in a full Chinese environment. :)

aysiu
July 11th, 2006, 04:20 PM
i'm sick of these posts. Shouldn't they be in testimonials, so i can just ignore them in peace?
But it's not a testimonial. If we had a whining/I'm leaving/This is what Ubuntu has to change but I won't file a bug report section, then it would be moved there.

bruce89
July 11th, 2006, 04:29 PM
But it's not a testimonial. If we had a whining/I'm leaving/This is what Ubuntu has to change but I won't file a bug report section, then it would be moved there.
Many people post this sort of thing in Testimonials though. We should open a sub forum for trolls.

RAV TUX
July 11th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Many people post this sort of thing in Testimonials though. We should open a sub forum for trolls.

maybe a sub-forum much like the "Other Distro Talk" forum started recently.

perhaps:

"So Long, Thanks for all the fish" subforum would be nice.

I would like to have one place to go to read the "goodbye ubuntu" threads, I find them all at once educational, entertaining.:rolleyes:

now a sub-forum for trolls? I am not sure anybody would identify themselves as a troll to want to post in a troll forum, but don't they have the backyard or something for banishing?






.

bvc
July 11th, 2006, 05:21 PM
trackerd, just don't give up! The payoff is great in the end. My first pc was an emachines 600is. Four years ago was my first attempt at linux and my pc was too new. Linux is much better at recent hardware support than back then, but not perfect because of a lack of vendor support for drivers. Get what you pay for. I tried again one year later and everything worked out of the box, except my winmodem, which needed a little tinkering in order to work. The emachines has kicked the bucked and I built my current pc two years ago. It's not hard, if this high school drop out can do it. I don't do wireless because it's just not necessary, or anything cutting edge, because of my first experience.

Linux is not windows and either is mac. We had to learn windows...we have to learn linux. Looking back I see a difference but not so much today. Linux has come a long way from 4 years ago.

The cli is not a scapegoat, it's the power that is available to you in windows (to a degree), that you don't know is there because you have those 3 options to click on (blinding you) that usually just screw your pc worse or cover the blemish over with makeup, so you can continue to slowly kill your windows install and have to reinstall in 3 months, if you don't get a worm or virus. The cli, the power of linux, is why my current install of ubuntu dapper has been here since warty beta ;)...and will continue 8)

fuscia
July 11th, 2006, 05:24 PM
Done. But only because the girl in your avatar is so pretty.

your kindness outweighs you.

Gardiner Westbound
July 11th, 2006, 08:55 PM
that's a bit drammatic.

try ndisgtk. it's a graphical version of ndiswrapper and is in the synaptic package manager. (i think it's in the universe repository, so you might not be able to use it if wireless is the only way you can connect to the internet.) the only thing else you would need would be the correct driver file from your linksys installation cd (you can get the driver from linksys if you can't find your cd). if you try to install the wrong driver, it will laugh at you rather than causing any problems, so you can try several drivers if at first you can't tell which one is correct.

when i first installed, i had no idea what i was doing. some of the help i was being given now seems obvious, but at the time it was totally foreign. fortunately, i went ahead and asked the stupid questions and got very helpful, patient responses.
I didn't hear back from Teroedni so I deleted the code he provided, it wasn't working anyway, and took another run at ndisgtk and ndiswrapper as you suggested.

God must have smiled because they went in and worked flawlessly, unlike the first time. Then I installed the rt2500 driver from the Linksys WUSB54Gv4 Wireless-G USB Network Adapter install CD. Still wouldn't work, so I went back in and blacklisted the rt2570 driver as has been suggested elsewhere. That did it, I was up and running!

Now I have to figure out how to get my sound working. It was a wrestle under Windows so it isn't going to be any easier with Ubuntu. The big advantage now is I can sit in front of the Ubuntu computer and try things on the fly without running back and forth to another computer.

Thanks all!

Polygon
July 11th, 2006, 09:17 PM
be sure to write down exactly what you did so you can do it again if you need to =P

now things will be much much easier because you can download updates and programs directly onto the ubuntu computer instead of running back and forth.

mech7
July 11th, 2006, 11:35 PM
I like ubuntu.. but it was indeed a bitch to get everyhting up and running especially wireless.

But I think the things that I miss most is easy installers, why can't i just download files and install them ? I think linux should have unified installers for all flavours.

Also ubuntu is not as stable as windows.. it crashed allready many times with me.. Also i am missing allot of applications photoshop, zbrush, silo.. but i guess i can't blame ubunutu for that one :)

MikePnKY
July 12th, 2006, 02:18 AM
Stone aged is fine with me...I still use a rotary phone...because I like it.

Actually, the best way to go about this, in my humble opinion, is take a break, get a latte', come back and start with the issues one at a time. I learned really quickly that, these forums have a search feature, which is invaluable. I was able to resolve most of my ubuntu issues without ever asking a question, just by hunting down where the issues had been addressed before. You can do it, I'm not any kind of super user, just a guy that does online banking and email. You'll do fine, if you actually know what kind of video card your system has, your a few steps ahead of me :D

LostInSwiss
July 12th, 2006, 08:59 AM
I installed Ubuntu on the weekend and I am taking my first steps into the Linux world. For a native Windows user the Ubuntu experience is good so far, things are familiar(ish) and I love the package installer.

Perceived performance (Windows wins)
I notice a clear perceived performance difference between the two, yes I know Windows will randomly freeze and reaction times can vary greatly but with Gnome there is a small delay for everything I do. The same action of Windows may actually take longer but it always seems faster. I think this is because Windows begins to load up interfaces quickly even if it means you cannot use them for some time where as Gnome just gives you a spinney hourglass for a few seconds where you wonder what is happening.
Itís a detail but its detail that counts to the masses.

Support resources
This is the one that I think is the biggest issue with Ubuntu and Linux in general. Yes I know there are masses of resources out there helping with everything but itís the way those resources work. I am finding that finding straight forward help for Linux is not so straight forward. Iím finding that most help comes in the form of forums on different websites (same too with windows). However Linux users seem to assume a higher level of technical knowledge in the readers. Yes it may be easier to say Ďget the csv, compile, copy to here, change this setting in such and such placeí, but the details are all missing. This isnít just on forums its on big Linux websites: i.e. from http://www.gnome.org/start/2.0/menuediting.html
ďCreate a desktop file using an existing file as a template. edit this file and add/edit a "Categories=" line at the bottom. This should include a keyword matching the appropriate menu item eg: for an Internet app you should have... Restart the panel.Ē
Where is the template? how do I edit? how do I Restart the panel?
Please donít answer these questions. The point is it takes the novice user a load of time digging to find the solutions. Last night I spent 5 hours (Iím a novice remember) working out how to install Real player (in the correct place not on the desktop, with firefox plug-in associations) and I still have problems (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=213856). How many Ďnormalí Windows users would have spent 5 hours on the task?
No many Linux users out there will probably say something like Ďstupid newbie, REFM, get over it, stick with windows if you cant hack it etc..í. Perhaps they are correct, I can see the issue is cultural.
I see so many forums saying how Linux is soo much better than Ms and that everyone should use it. If they really mean it then they have to attract the Ms audience by speaking their language.

MaximB
July 12th, 2006, 09:48 AM
I think that you would be very setisfied with this ubuntu forum
we have 200 newbie questions everyday and I myself consider myself a newbie - I had tons of questions and the all were answered.
so I now can help to the newbies who come with the same questions.

if you have a question
1.search the forum - your questions are probebly were already answered.
2.if you don't find an answer - pose a thread and say that you searched the forum and the net and didn't find the answer
the tell us about EVERYTHING conserning your question (it could be hardware you using , programs , other OS...)
DO NOT forget to tell us if you are using KDE cuz most of us thinks that you are using gnome that comes with ubuntu.
*. usually you can get an answer up to one hour (it could be 10minutes :) ) - but it really depends of the time you ask the question
you see your time is usually not our time and ppl go to work or sleep.

you need to understand that ubuntu is ALWAYS developing (winxp is always fixing bugs).
ubuntu have a new realese every 6 monthes.
and every time is better and more appealing to the new users.
in the forum we use the command line cuz it's much easier to explain that way - it's for every linux. (instead of saying "go there click it...).

hope I you understand more about our community and ubuntu

houstonbofh
July 12th, 2006, 09:56 AM
There are very few "in between" linux users. The only thing I can say is, "As you learn, teach." This will help you, as much as it helps others. And yes, the curve is steep.

As to your comments, the stock install, is solid, safe, and slow. There are a lot of things that can be done to speed it up, just as in Windows. (TweakUI for example) Native graphics drivers, the correct kernel, hdparm, and "swappiness" are good starts.

If you have a Pentium Pro or better (almost everyone, but embedded systems do not. Default is safe) search in synaptic for "386" and note what you find. Now search for "686" and install the matching files. (All of them) "linux-686" (or linux-686-SMP if you have hyperthreading, but not for some Pentium M systems) should get you there. Install and reboot. Be shocked.

Bloch
July 12th, 2006, 10:21 AM
Perceived performance (Windows wins)
For its whole life windows has been optimised for the GUI user experience. Linux however has been optimised for compiling / multi-users / server use.
However speed of opening pdf's and viewing large photographs was faster on ubuntu for me.


I am finding that finding straight forward help for Linux is not so straight forward.
Agreed. My advice (not just for you!) is to stick to the help pages in ubuntu. You generallly will find all you need to know here.
The tabs on the ubuntu homepage offer you
Community Support Wiki
All of these offer help. There is no "New Users' Guide" accessible anywhere from these pages. The Wiki is best organised. I clicked on "Common Questions" as it looked the most obvious place to start. This was the second one:

Are Kubuntu, Edubuntu and Xubuntu forks of Ubuntu?

The "About Ubuntu" link on the homepage contains NO links to installation guides, quick-starter guides etc.

Gosh, I hadn't realised things were that bad.

The desktop information page http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop linked fromt he homepage has a deceptively reassuring corporate sheen to it. It contains no links to appropriate help pages.

It also makes no mention of the bugbear of new users: proprietary formats. "play your videos in Totem" it says. No, you cannot. Not out of the box. No warning to new users that they will have to install these formats separately. - All it would takes is a few sentences, so the user understands the reasons for this and does not start cursing as soon as ubuntu is installed.

The help IS all there. And I understand that it is left to the community to offer help / wikis etc. But when help pages are well established there should be links from the "official" pages. And there should be an installation guide and "getting started" guide accessible from the homepage.
Some rethinking of the division into Community Support Wiki
might also be nice.

It's not about spoonfeeding people. It's about being able to get the information you need. For example on the "new users'" page there should be a few words on what "the ubuntu community" means, explain why propietary formats are missing, and encourage experienced people to offer their time on the forums, and how to fill in bug reports. After months of use I keep stumbling across excellently written guides - and keep seeing new posts asking fo the same help each time.

MaximB
July 12th, 2006, 10:35 AM
I'm a bit afraid to install thouse - cuz I don't know jack
what is 386 ? what is 686 ?
what is suite for me ?
I have most of 386 installed already by default.

what excactly do I need to install ?
the only muching package is kernel-pcmcia 2.4.27
and it requers kernel image 686.

help ?

Jax Kovak
July 12th, 2006, 10:47 AM
....If you have a Pentium Pro or better (almost everyone, but embedded systems do not. Default is safe) search in synaptic for "386" and note what you find. Now search for "686" and install the matching files. (All of them) "linux-686" (or linux-686-SMP if you have hyperthreading, but not for some Pentium M systems) should get you there. Install and reboot. Be shocked.

Sounds good but I don't have a clue what you are talking about! :)

I have an AMD3000XP. Does that count?
Really search Synaptic and install everything with 686 in it??

BTW, in answer to the main thread, I agree with a great deal of what LostInSwiss is saying, however, since coming to these forums I have found myself learning so much more (So thanks guys). It IS alien to a long term Windows but this is why I have set up a dual boot system; I still have all my critical stuff in Windows and slowly but surely I'm getting to a point where it will all move over to Ubuntu, with the exception of the games that my son plays.

halfvolle melk
July 12th, 2006, 10:55 AM
I have an AMD3000XP. Does that count?
Really search Synaptic and install everything with 686 in it?
For an AMD you can install linux-k7:

sudo apt-get install linux-k7
You might notice a speed increase but probably won't.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=85917&highlight=kernel

slimdog360
July 12th, 2006, 10:56 AM
the 386 and 686 refers to the processor type. Single core AMD processors are refered to as intel i386 processor compatible and dual core is the 686.
Basically if you have a dual core processor (Intel or AMD) you need the 686 kernal, if you have a single core processor you need the 386 kernal.

edit: the AMD Athlon XP processors are single core, 386 not 686. So if you have an athlonXP dont install the 686 stuff.

edit again: To the thread creator, this sort of thing probably belongs in the cafe (down the bottom of the fourms).

Miguel
July 12th, 2006, 03:35 PM
Just wanted to clear that 686 is *not* a dual core. 686 actually refers to Pentium pro or fully compatible proccessors. Dual-core users should use kernels marked with the letters SMP.

You could say that ALL 386 instructions are contained in 686. However, not all 686 instructions are 386 instructions (call it progress).

And to the original poster, good luck. It's true that linux language is totally alien to the tipical (or even power user) windows user. It's like spanish and english, both are languages but knowing how to use one of them doesn't mean you will be able to use the other one inmediatelly.

Brunellus
July 12th, 2006, 03:48 PM
the less of a power user you are with Windows, the easier a time you'll have of being a power user in Linux. The worst thing you can possibly do is /assume/ that because you're a power user in Windows, everything should be about the same in Linux...they're very different environments. Many 'power users' have a hard time 'unlearning' Windows and getting their heads around Linux, conceptually.

To the OP: " If they really mean it then they have to attract the Ms audience by speaking their language." As far as I'm concerned, "the audience" is irrelevant. It's rarely been the case that end-users "choose" their "preferred" environment: that has been imposed on them by other things.

Don't believe me? If it were up to end-users, in a money-no-object world, everybody would have ended up migrating to the Amiga in the late '80s. Don't remember/never heard of Amiga? That's because government and industry had adopted a cheaper (but technically less sophisticated) solution: IBM PCs running Intel chips and MS-DOS. The people who made the decision weren't end-users--they were the guys who controlled large-scale procurement.

MaximB
July 12th, 2006, 03:56 PM
Just wanted to clear that 686 is *not* a dual core. 686 actually refers to Pentium pro or fully compatible proccessors. Dual-core users should use kernels marked with the letters SMP.

You could say that ALL 386 instructions are contained in 686. However, not all 686 instructions are 386 instructions (call it progress). .

I have pentium4 1800Ghz - so what is for me 386 or 686 ???

Brunellus
July 12th, 2006, 04:00 PM
I have pentium4 1800Ghz - so what is for me 386 or 686 ???
686. If it has Hyperthreading, it's 686-SMP.

You'll know you have the wrong kernel when your system fails to boot!

newlinux
July 12th, 2006, 04:07 PM
I just installed Ubuntu a couple of weeks ago, and although I have some significant experience with netBSD and Linux from 10 years ago, I consider myself a newbie because with all the distros things have changed quite a bit (and I haven't been using any of this stuff for a while). That said, I have found my on my dual boot XP/Linux machine that things work faster for me on the Linux side. The boot time is similar, but from the time I login to when I actually do something is only a few seconds in Linux, and I have to wait while all the various windows programs load whatever they are loading on startup. The disk is crunching for quite a bit before things get a snappy. This is probably partially due to having the Windows system longer and installing software here and there - but honestly, I think I have already installed a ton of things on Linux and that slowdown hasn't happened yet. Are there things I can do to make my Windows side faster. I'm sure there are... But as of right now, my Linux side is faster.

I think getting help for Linux is a little harder for people who are used to getting help for windows, but not a whole lot. I have found these forums incredibly helpful. I may have to do a little digging, but I find that I actually learn more that way because I run into topics that I wasn't even looking for when I search for answers, which just enhances my knowledge and gives me other things to search for.

aysiu
July 12th, 2006, 04:12 PM
It's funny this thread's title mentions Ubuntu and not Linux in general.

I agree there is a lot of Linux documentation and help that assumes too much of the new user, but the Ubuntu documentation and help is what got me into Ubuntu in the first place.

The forum members really explained things step by step, and the Ubuntu Guide had some really great copy-and-paste commands all on one page.

Kilz
July 12th, 2006, 04:25 PM
It's funny this thread's title mentions Ubuntu and not Linux in general.


What I think is funny is that the original poster mentions Ubuntu in the title, but then complains that the support isn't good because they went to different sites. :-k

james016
July 12th, 2006, 04:29 PM
I have a P4 2.6 with HT. Can I install files that have 686 in the name? :confused:

Sonic Alpha
July 12th, 2006, 04:30 PM
I agree there is a lot of Linux documentation and help that assumes too much of the new user, but the Ubuntu documentation and help is what got me into Ubuntu in the first place.

The forum members really explained things step by step, and the Ubuntu Guide had some really great copy-and-paste commands all on one page.


I have to agree with this. As a new user, I found the documentation on the site to be fantastic.

Plus, this forum is another source of information should I fail to find what I need. It's a very friendly community, not once have I been made to feel bad for not knowing what to do. :mrgreen:

MaximB
July 12th, 2006, 04:31 PM
686. If it has Hyperthreading, it's 686-SMP.

You'll know you have the wrong kernel when your system fails to boot!
ok so 686 is for me
but in the advanced add/remove most of 383 packets are installed
and 686 packets have the wrong/lower kernel

how do I make ubuntu faster then ?
what should I download / install ?

newlinux
July 12th, 2006, 04:34 PM
I agree there is a lot of Linux documentation and help that assumes too much of the new user, but the Ubuntu documentation and help is what got me into Ubuntu in the first place.

The forum members really explained things step by step, and the Ubuntu Guide had some really great copy-and-paste commands all on one page.

Me three. This forum and all of the documentation on Ubuntu is one of the reasons I picked this distro, and I'm still not regretting it. I'm considering running it live at work, but the IT guys might have a problem with that :)

Brunellus
July 12th, 2006, 04:35 PM
to make ubuntu faster? install more RAM!

you don't need to install packages one-by-one. Get the 686 kernel metapackage, which will always depend on the most recent 686 ubuntu kernel. then relax.

MaximB
July 12th, 2006, 04:49 PM
to make ubuntu faster? install more RAM!

you don't need to install packages one-by-one. Get the 686 kernel metapackage, which will always depend on the most recent 686 ubuntu kernel. then relax.

RAM - I don't need...I have 1GB
I've searched for the 686 metapack and could not find it in the advanced add/remove manager
and so I couldn't find the entice too...
were ? how ?

and yes i've enabled all packages 100%

Bloch
July 12th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Me three. This forum and all of the documentation on Ubuntu is one of the reasons I picked this distro, and I'm still not regretting it.
Ubuntu certainly has the best documentation among linuxes, and I'm happy to see people moving because of it.

But there's always room for improvement, and my personal experience was that most of the problems I encountered were due to poor documentation. All the docs exist out there, it just can be difficult to know where to begin, and the ubuntu homepage should put some effort into providing organised access to the appropriate resources.

Maybe the company is reluctant to "officially" recommend one help page above another, as they are all written and provided by the community? I don't know.

simonn
July 12th, 2006, 04:58 PM
However Linux users seem to assume a higher level of technical knowledge in the readers.

I take your point, but when writing anything technical you have to make some assumptions as to the level of understanding the user has. I would assume that the average *nix user who wants to be able to configure their system would understand that editing a file means open it in a text editor and edit it, in the same way that you can say "click on the start button" to a windows user instead of "Move your mouse pointer to the bottom left courer of the screen where there you will see a button with "Start" written on it..." etc etc.

If you are honest, how much understanding of windows (or any other OS) did you have having only used it for half a week?

I played with a computer for the first time about 25 years ago, have worked in IT for around a decade and have used or owned an Apple II, BBC, C64, Atari ST, PCs from 8086s from DOS 3 and Linux since 2.4.10ish, AS/400s, mainframes and recently OS X on my newest toy, an iBook.

It still took me a couple of weeks to get used to OS X despite the fact that it is a flavour of unix, and I was already good with unix, and is by far the most user friendly OS I have ever used.

I know it is hard when you start learning something new, but do you think all documentation should be geared towards newbies?

IMHO the best way to learn linux is to go back to the basics, e.g. http://www.chongluo.com/books/rute/, and when you come across a problem, which to begin with may be as simple as "why will this command not run", do not be happy with just getting it to run, work out why it would not run (this goes for anything, not just linux).

Brunellus
July 12th, 2006, 05:00 PM
sudo apt-get update

your computer should be connected to the internet.

aysiu
July 12th, 2006, 05:01 PM
All the docs exist out there, it just can be difficult to know where to begin, and the ubuntu homepage should put some effort into providing organised access to the appropriate resources.

Maybe the company is reluctant to "officially" recommend one help page above another, as they are all written and provided by the community? I don't know. Well, the official Ubuntu page links to this as the documentation:
https://help.ubuntu.com/

I believe that was put together by the community. It also links to the forums, IRC, and the mailing list.

Apart from that, there aren't too many other mass-documentation sites for Ubuntu.

There's http://www.ubuntuguide.org , which has been recently updated for Dapper--in its heyday, it was for Hoary.

Then, there's http://doc.gwos.org/ , which is a collection of great documentation from these forums.

That's about it. Otherwise, it's just random one-person sites like http://www.monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing or my own http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu
I take your point, but when writing anything technical you have to make some assumptions as to the level of understanding the user has. I would assume that the average *nix user who wants to be able to configure their system would understand that editing a file means open it in a text editor and edit it, in the same way that you can say "click on the start button" to a windows user instead of "Move your mouse pointer to the bottom left courer of the screen where there you will see a button with "Start" written on it..." etc etc. I tend to base my assumption of knowledge on the task. If it's a sophisticated task, I assume a sophisticated level of knowledge. If it's a simple task (or one frequently desired by new users), I assume very little.

For example, my documentation for creating a separate /home partition from a home folder doesn't explain how to boot a live CD. The assumption is that anyone who has the desire to create a separate /home partition is well-versed enough in Ubuntu to at least know how to boot a live CD.
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/separatehome.html

On the other hand, my documentation for burning an ISO assumes almost nothing except that you know how to point and click in Windows.
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/iso.html

simonn
July 12th, 2006, 05:14 PM
that most of the problems I encountered were due to poor documentation.

I disagree.

I mean this in the most repectful way possible, but it comes down to your understanding and ability to interpret the documentation.

With open source software you have the ultimate form of documentation available, the source code. You can see what the software is actually doing (or meant to be doing) if, of course, you understand the programming language.

Seriously, use linux for a couple of years and you will chuckle to yourself about the problems you used to encounter, just like you probably do with windows now.

MaximB
July 12th, 2006, 05:19 PM
sudo apt-get update
your computer should be connected to the internet.

In did it.
now - there are dozens of linux-686 packages..wich one I need to install ? give me the excact name plz..so I won't get confused

Brunellus
July 12th, 2006, 05:26 PM
please post in another thread and do not hijack threads--it's bad netiquette.

kinematic
July 12th, 2006, 05:30 PM
[QUOTE=LostInSwiss;1244563where as Gnome just gives you a spinney hourglass for a few seconds where you wonder what is happening.[/QUOTE]

you're not using gnome...kde has the spinning hourglass.
personally i've found gnome to be faster then kde so you might want to check it out.
use the commands:
sudo aptitude update(reloads the package list and pulls in the latest version of stuff)
sudo aptitude install ubuntu-desktop(pulls gnome and dependencies in and installs and configures it).

3rdalbum
July 12th, 2006, 05:35 PM
In did it.
now - there are dozens of linux-686 packages..wich one I need to install ? give me the excact name plz..so I won't get confused

It's just called "linux-686".

I really don't know whether you'll notice a speed difference though. Windows may even be faster than Ubuntu if you're not working with large files.

angkor
July 12th, 2006, 06:37 PM
This is the one that I think is the biggest issue with Ubuntu and Linux in general. Yes I know there are masses of resources out there helping with everything but itís the way those resources work.

When you start at something finding what you're looking for is always difficult. Often one makes it even more difficult then it needs to be.

The help provided in Ubuntu itself is very useful and even has an entry about installing Realplayer10.

System -> Help -> System Documentation (-> Ubuntu Desktop Guide)

The internet is big so finding what you want is bound to be difficult. Over time you'll know how to use google to find what your looking for in linux / ubuntu.

btw I requested this thread to be moved to the cafe since it isn't a support thread imo.

jincast90
July 12th, 2006, 07:52 PM
I just dont get the f***ing hype were every damn linux user tells you: Linux is soo easy blablabla. Ive only found it harder. Everytime I have to put some kind of terminal command, it screws up and says theres, no such thing and what do I know. My installation was a pain in the ***. It wouldent get that I wanted to install linux on a 5gb partition, and save the 15 as a fat32. So I just made it afterword. And when I then start up ubuntu, I find out I cant enter my fat32 partition, and there arent any problems to access it in Windows. But I dont wanna leave Linux. I myself just find Windows easier to use.

There I said it, and no I am not proud only MAD! ](*,)

wolfmaniac
July 12th, 2006, 07:54 PM
u hav to first unlearn the windowish way

mech7
July 12th, 2006, 07:55 PM
Yes it's not easier.. but its free :-k

aysiu
July 12th, 2006, 07:56 PM
I just don't get the f***ing hype where every damn Windows user tells you: Windows is soo easy blahblahblah. I've found it only harder. (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=214298)

So now we're even.

Ask a question, and you'll get an answer. Rant, and you'll get a rant in return.

Brunellus
July 12th, 2006, 08:01 PM
don't be a menace to ubuntu while drinkin' your juice n da hood.

Linux is NOT Windows; Windows is NOT Linux. Moving from one to the next is NOT easy if you expect one to behave like the other. Trust me.

Recognize the difference, and learn. the shell is bash, not COMMAND.COM (or its w32 successor CMD). YOu can't use CMD commands in bash, but I've yet to figure out how to pipe or redirect output in CMD.

T700
July 12th, 2006, 08:01 PM
I think Windows is the ideal OS for you. I wish you well and ask that tell no one you ever tried Linux.

Paul

qdvubun
July 12th, 2006, 08:02 PM
if you're willing to learn, need to remember to forget what you can do in Windows, this is not Windows. When you're comfortable with Linux, wouldn't it be nice to say "Hey I know how to use both Windows and Linux"? thats what make me want to learn both OS.

jincast90
July 12th, 2006, 08:03 PM
Im sorry guys. Its just been hard with all these Linux things today. Thanks for not losing ur temper like I just did.
I apologyse :(

mech7
July 12th, 2006, 08:04 PM
I think the problem is that Windows dont need to use commandlines but everything can be setup from the GUI, and Linux relies heavlily from a command line.


Recognize the difference, and learn. the shell is bash, not COMMAND.COM (or its w32 successor CMD). YOu can't use CMD commands in bash, but I've yet to figure out how to pipe or redirect output in CMD.

MrSmith
July 12th, 2006, 08:05 PM
Linux isn't easy. But then again neither is Windows, Mac OS, or any other OS in some instances. What makes linux harder for some is if they have never used a command line interfaced OS. This is probably more the case now than in times past since most people today get their teeth on Windows and don't even know the command line exists.

Linux like anything else has a learning curve. And that curve can be steep in places. But it isn't impossible.

My first computer was a C-64, nothing but a command line. Next was an Amiga, graphical interface but still a lot of command line needed. Then came the early PC, back to the DOS command line. After all that, Windows, but still some command line needed. So more than anything, Linux and the command line isn't exactly new to me, the syntax is just different.

I learn by my mistakes and I have plenty of opportunities to learn. ;)

You can stick with it and soon it will become second nature or if you are more comfortable you can stick with Windows. No use beating your brains out over a computer. For me, I have stuck with it and now my Ubuntu machine is my primary desktop. I still have an XP machine for a specific use, that is video editing. I'm hoping for the time when even that can be done to my satisfaction on my Linux box.

MrSmith

echo $USER
July 12th, 2006, 08:05 PM
I like it because gnu/linux is challenging.

_simon_
July 12th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Some people try linux expecting it to behave like windows because that's all they have known. It's like a car mechanic trying to fix a jet engine then getting annoyed because they are nothing alike.

Forget windows and everything you know about it. If you want to use Linux you have to learn how to use it. I can pretty much guarantee that in 6 months time (or a lot less, it depends how much time you can give) you'll be the one writing responses like this to frustrated new linux users.

MaximB
July 12th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Im sorry guys. Its just been hard with all these Linux things today. Thanks for not losing ur temper like I just did.
I apologyse :(

our community is all about love , help , friendship
noune will tell you to "get the f*ck out of here"
if you don't like it...it's a shame but we don't blame you
if you need to ask somthing - ask and we will answer ! (but search the forum for your question first , maybe someone already asked it :) )

goodluck !!!
and welcome to our community

EDIT : one more thing , I don't think you need to forget windows...I know I didn't.
just don't applay it to linux - and remmember :
THERE IS NO KNOWLAGE THAT IS NO POWER !!!

MetalMusicAddict
July 12th, 2006, 08:41 PM
EDIT : one more thing , I don't think you need to forget windows...I know I didn't.

Funny thing for me is that I do forget from time to time. I find myself looking for a terminal or my Home folder. :) I even had a instinct to look for Synaptic. :)

Brunellus
July 12th, 2006, 08:48 PM
Funny thing for me is that I do forget from time to time. I find myself looking for a terminal or my Home folder. :) I even had a instinct to look for Synaptic. :)
it's true. I tend to see things "the Linux way" now, and get frustrated when this isn't always the case.

Dragonbite
July 12th, 2006, 08:54 PM
If you want something that swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, and you can pluck to make pillows out of it like a duck then get a duck! If you want something that looks, feels and works like Windows then stick with Windows.

Going from Windows to Linux you'll come across the same learning curve as if you go from Windows to OS X, or Linux to Windows, or OS X to Linux ... (etc.)

Ubuntu has been a lot easier to install on my home computer than Windows 2000!

Ubuntu recognized everything except for the winmodem (no surprised, which is why I have an external USR I bought years ago). There is a video playback issue but I'm narrowing down to the cause of that.

Windows 2000 did not find video OR soundcard OR winmodems and then finding out the Soundcard's drivers stopped at Windows98 and luckily somebody hacked together an NT driver for it! Even then everybody sounds like Alvin and the Chipmunks with their pants pulled up to their chin (fast, high-pitched for those of you who don't know Alvin)!

Plus, why do you have to go to the CLI? Since installing Ubuntu, I've only NEEDED to go into the Command Line like 2x, otherwise with Synaptic I've been able to perform everything via GUI with a focus on ease and maintaining things with the minimal amount of effort on my part.

Derek Djons
July 12th, 2006, 09:18 PM
Easy is a very subjective word! In the past wars where fought man to man, honest and false. These days a single laser-guided rocket kills a whole battalion in one strike!

In the past everybody used commands on a black and white screen. These days you're clicking on boxes and buttons and make selection with your mouse?

Is that all EASY or LUXURY?

I prefer mixing the two. There are a lot of commands which make it possible for me to open files which are deep in the system without clickin the RSI out of me. And when editing graphics or browsing the internet I happily use the mouse.

hizaguchi
July 12th, 2006, 09:39 PM
Funny thing for me is that I do forget from time to time. I find myself looking for a terminal or my Home folder. :) I even had a instinct to look for Synaptic. :)
Same here. I was going to turn up the refresh rate on my monitor at work (I could see it blinking... drives me insane), and my first instinct was to open up the command line and edit my xorg file. When I got there and saw the C:> I realized I was an idiot and remembered that you get those settings by right clicking the desktop. I didn't want to minimize all the work I had open, so I hit Ctrl-Alt-Right to switch desktops. DUH!

Using something you're not used to can be really frustrating. But that doesn't mean one system is more difficult than another.

BuffaloX
July 12th, 2006, 09:52 PM
There I said it, and no I am not proud only MAD! ](*,)

I understand you completely.

It's frustrating being told something is easy, just to find it hard. It's demoralizing. Are people lying or am I stupid? Knowing I'm not stupid, people must be lying. Of course it get's me/you angry.

Until now I find that Ubuntu isn't harder than Windows, but very very different. I also lost my patience once. :rolleyes:
Patience with one self and Linux is needed.

I personally have 12 years experience with Windows. I understand Windows very well. It will take some time to get into Linux at the same level.
And it's sometimes frustrating to know that I could do something in windows in 2 seconds, but here I have to learn it first.

Why do I do it?
Because I find Linux in general is as good or better than Windows.
Also everything is out in the open, no secrets. No weird market strategic limitations or addons.
The Open Source idea has proven itself, it's the right way to go for me.

If you prefer Windows, you are free to choose. But if Linux didn't exist, maybe you would have no options at all, only windows. (What a nightmare)
And Windows might be worse than it actually is.

PS
If you use Ubuntu alternate install CD, you can partition your drive for installation exactly as you like during installation, And it's more powerful/flexible than the fdisk in XP installer.
Probably you can partition from the Live CD too, I dunno cause I use alternate.

jimcooncat
July 12th, 2006, 09:56 PM
"Linux ain't that easy as everybody says."

I didn't say that!

codypumper
July 12th, 2006, 10:09 PM
Once a linux user always a linux user.
Windows gave me the old BsoD, Blue Screen of Death,
and Linux was my only option. It was love at first sight.

In my experience, I think its safe to say your releasing the angry you have built up from Windows, upon the Ubuntu community. Heck, you didn't even have to pay for Ubuntu/Linux.

PhilipsHead
July 12th, 2006, 10:13 PM
I just dont get the f***ing hype were every damn linux user tells you: Linux is soo easy blablabla. Ive only found it harder. Everytime I have to put some kind of terminal command, it screws up and says theres, no such thing and what do I know. My installation was a pain in the ***. It wouldent get that I wanted to install linux on a 5gb partition, and save the 15 as a fat32. So I just made it afterword. And when I then start up ubuntu, I find out I cant enter my fat32 partition, and there arent any problems to access it in Windows. But I dont wanna leave Linux. I myself just find Windows easier to use.

There I said it, and no I am not proud only MAD! ](*,)

I'm sorry, but isn't it WAY easier to type a simple command than it is to find your way through multiple menus in several programs?

df -h vs double click my computer, right click c (this will have to be repeated for every damn partition or drive you got) choose properties and check it out.

Linux isn't windows, it's not intended to be Windows, if you like windows better, use Windows, no one cares.

Brunellus
July 12th, 2006, 10:14 PM
Once a linux user always a linux user.
Windows gave me the old BsoD, Blue Screen of Death,
and Linux was my only option. It was love at first sight.

In my experience, I think its safe to say your releasing the angry you have built up from Windows, upon the Ubuntu community. Heck, you didn't even have to pay for Ubuntu/Linux.
might be "safe," but certainly isn't ubuntu.

there's only so much OMFGZ UR OS IS TEH SUXX0RZ that I can take.

BuffaloX
July 12th, 2006, 10:18 PM
"Linux ain't that easy as everybody says."

I didn't say that!

Then maybe I misunderstood you completely? :mrgreen:

Oh how stupid this is only fun in danish... If you are danish you get it.

Christmas
July 12th, 2006, 10:54 PM
I've got the exact same feeling when I was beginning with Linux, and I'm still a newbie right now. So after I installed Linux, I made some fatal mistakes in my judgement: I thought it should act like Windows just because Windows was the only OS I ever used. But what I didn't understand back then was the fact that things are not harder to do in Linux, they're are just different. From different mentality, philosophy, way of developing programs to the whole way of configuring Linux, everything is different.

Sometimes it can get you so mad you're ready to take the PC and throw it on the Window. But hey, the bright side in this is that now I only use Linux and I got used to it, the same way I got used to Windows Me the first time I had a computer. I didn't even know what a file is, what file saving is.

So my advice, as an approximately 5 months Linux user, is that whenever you try to do something and doesn't work, try to keep you calm and see the solution, you'll be surprised not by the fact that you managed to make it work, but after a while you'll "swim" in Linux like you did in Windows, and that includes command line too!

Of course there are some downsides of Linux, and most of them I think that come from the fact that Linux is free. Read this great article (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm) about Linux and Windows, and if it does not convince you, just try to be patient when working in Linux, remember that you learnt Windows the same way.

Stormy Eyes
July 13th, 2006, 12:12 AM
Im sorry guys. Its just been hard with all these Linux things today. Thanks for not losing ur temper like I just did.
I apologyse :(

It's all right. I got angry often when I was a newbie too, even though most of the time it was my own damn fault for not reading the f---ing manual. :) Here's a little advice: when your frustrated, the last thing you should do is go to a forum. Instead, get away from the computer, release your aggression (by kicking stray dogs or tarring and feathering the local tax collector, for example) and wait until you've calmed down before connecting again. Then, instead of ranting, ask a couple of questions. If somebody knows the answer and sees your question, chances are they'll help you out.

mech7
July 13th, 2006, 12:17 AM
I don't think so? I think command line is great for server but for desktops naah ](*,)


I'm sorry, but isn't it WAY easier to type a simple command than it is to find your way through multiple menus in several programs?

Jucato
July 13th, 2006, 12:21 AM
Linux is only easy if you remember one very important thing "Linux is not Windows." If you remember that, and not expect that Linux will act like Windows, then I'm sure it would be easier. The only reason Linux is "not easy" is because of our own mindsets and biases from what we've been previously used to (Windows or Mac), because we're basically entering upon unchartered territory, or just because we are simply nervous/scared/apprehensive. You can be surprised at how your mind/perceptions greatly affect your Linux experience.

There's also another important thing that you should remember: "Linux is not Ubuntu only." What I mean is that try not to judge Linux solely from your experience of one distro. Ubuntu may be relatively easy to use compared to others, but it has been known to provide a balance between GUI and command line. There are other distros out there that focus more on the GUI and on trying to avoid using the terminal.

Hope you have a better Linuxperience in the future. :D

briancurtin
July 13th, 2006, 12:46 AM
OP: linux is not for you.

Mr. Picklesworth
July 13th, 2006, 01:03 AM
Brian: Don't say that.
It's like someone telling you that you shouldn't drive because you haven't learned yet.
Besides, as you may have noticed, this conversation is 3 pages long and has gone far beyond that initial reaction.
One of Ubuntu's goals is to become the distro that IS for everyone, and chasing away people who haven't yet gotten used to Linux is not going to help.


One thing that people find difficult when switching from Windows to Linux is file permissions.
Changing them is scary when you know what they are there for, and it's especially weird when you know something has to go somewhere but that folder is inaccessible to your user :)
(And really annoying that to do root access you either have to change a setting and log in as root, or go through the terminal. Ubuntu needs a root access setting for the file manager or something...).

What could improve initial reactions is a full introductory tutorial like that for Windows. I bet it could cut the number of questions people have in half.

Linux can be rather touchy about some things, but consider it a feature. When Linux messes up, it's not too difficult to figure out why it did and how to fix it :)

I suppose the problem with it not giving you the drive partition you wanted was due to your drive being sort of fragmented, with only a few little gaps to fit in Ubuntu's partition.
And to respond to your shock of how it didn't much like accessing the fat32 partition, remember this: Windows has trouble figuring out ext2 partitions, and it especially can't figure out multiple partitions on removeable storage devices.
The Disks manager can be a pain, though.

Entering commands wrong in the terminal: You can press Tab for an autocomplete. Ubuntu's terminal does this pretty nicely; the autocomplete is actually smart enough to do autocomplete of options for some programs, making it very pleasant to work with :)
Just type the first few letters of a command (eg: "pow" for "poweroff") and hit tab, and it will give you the command or a list of commands starting with those letters.

professor_chaos
July 13th, 2006, 01:10 AM
OP: linux is not for you.

I wouldn't agree here. You and only you can decide is linux is right for you.

IMHO, I suggest that if you want to make a real honest judgement about whether linux is easy, is to take the time to learn it. Then you can decide if its easy. The people or person who told you it would be easy from the start shouldn't open their mouths. My opinion linux is a very efficent, stable OS. Many of the tasks I preform are much easier in linux than windows. So, linux is easier for me. Perhaps your tasks are different.
Take your time, ease into it and then decide if its better or worse. Often its the new users like yourself that can give the most back to the community, with your comments. Welcome to linux and I hope you stay. :D

LostInSwiss
July 13th, 2006, 01:48 AM
Iím back


The worst thing you can possibly do is /assume/ that because you're a power user in Windows, everything should be about the same in Linux...they're very different environments. Many 'power users' have a hard time 'unlearning' Windows and getting their heads around Linux, conceptually.
ÖÖÖÖÖÖÖ.
If it were up to end-users, in a money-no-object world, everybody would have ended up migrating to the Amiga in the late '80s. Don't remember/never heard of Amiga? That's because government and industry had adopted a cheaper (but technically less sophisticated) solution: IBM PCs running Intel chips and MS-DOS. The people who made the decision weren't end-users--they were the guys who controlled large-scale procurement.

Here here
I know Iím not the most the important thing here (the thread is) but just to clear a few things up in general. I would consider myself a Windows power user and perhaps thatís the problem as mentioned. Main problem is iím impatient. Whereís the registry in this ube2 thing? Joke!
I have been in the industry for nearly 10 years now and to be honest Iím quite disillusioned. I was in development but now I work almost exclusively with SQL Server fixing other peoples design incompetenceís and write lots of elaborate T-SLQ. I work for a large faceless company that will only deal with fortune 500 companies (i.e. Ms only), most people have lost their jobs to India, and those who have stayed are now pen pushers or are the few people who keep things running. I see no future for myself in IT in the western world and looking at the bids on elancer or rentacoder is depressing. I have loads of ideas but never follow them through and to top it all I hate DMBSís.

This is the main reason why I have finally got around to installing Linux. For a fresh outlook.


What I think is funny is that the original poster mentions Ubuntu in the title, but then complains that the support isn't good because they went to different sites. :-k

Historically Iím a forum lecher (a fleacher?). Read loads but never contribute. In the last two days I have posted as much as I have done all year for Ms issues. Usually I get the Ms results I want in the first couple of minutes of searching. I searched here for the Real issue and found a couple of posts that didnít help so I moved on to Google. My mistake.

I now realize that this forum is something special. For my few Ms posts replies are few and far between (nothing like this).

However back to the original thread I put and another quote..


I take your point, but when writing anything technical you have to make some assumptions as to the level of understanding the user has. I would assume that the average *nix user who wants to be able to configure their system would understand that editing a file means open it in a text editor and edit it, in the same way that you can say "click on the start button" to a windows user instead of "Move your mouse pointer to the bottom left courer of the screen where there you will see a button with "Start" written on it..." etc etcÖ.


I know how to open and use an editor. I was trying to make an analogy though perhaps not a good one for constancy of forum reply qualities (or the lack of). I donít need to find another one there are some in this thread, take a look: Statements that contain things like ďsearch for all packages containing XXX in the name and install them allĒ are not really helpful are they?

Agree with your main point however what I meant was with forums there is a large variation in the consistency of quality and assumption of readerís knowledge. With MSDN there is a huge amount or resources in one place (with varying qualities from page to page) but not all jumbled up as is in forums and with consistent quality in each section. This is why the faceless corporations choose Ms because they get the funding to organize the (limited) support they offer so its cleer.

Aysiu
Thanks for your post. Just what I needed (should be on the ube2 home page.

Lastly..

you're not using gnome...kde has the spinning hourglass..

It is gnome, spinning hourglass just sounded better than spinney thing.

That aside I do have a performance problem same as in the post:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=213694&highlight=thinkpad

Still looking into this...

Stormy Eyes
July 13th, 2006, 02:13 AM
I don't think so? I think command line is great for server but for desktops naah ](*,)

I would not be willing to use Linux without access to the commandline. I find it useful for many tasks, such as file and disk management, configuration, and tasks that will run for a long time but don't require babysitting on my part. With the commandline, I can get a torrent downloading and just leave it alone while I let my wife use the desktop. With the commandline, I can use SSH to connect to my Linux box with my Mac and do things.

You don't have to use it, but don't even think of taking away my shell.

Jucato
July 13th, 2006, 02:26 AM
I would not be willing to use Linux without access to the commandline. I find it useful for many tasks, such as file and disk management, configuration, and tasks that will run for a long time but don't require babysitting on my part. With the commandline, I can get a torrent downloading and just leave it alone while I let my wife use the desktop. With the commandline, I can use SSH to connect to my Linux box with my Mac and do things.

You don't have to use it, but don't even think of taking away my shell.

The problem is, not everybody is as talented as you. :D

True, some of us do find the command line an extremely fast way to work, but that's because we've had experienced it before. We already had enough knowledge to help us in that area. But for a completely new Linux user, specially one who had very little experience with command lines, to have to go to the command line just to setup an ADSL PPPoE connection (I can relate to that), that's quite a task. I didn't find it personally difficult because I was quite familiar with working on a command line in MS-DOS, and because I spent almost a whole month researching about Linux and how to do things. I doubt your "average" desktop user would be putting in that much time preparing to use Linux.

PhilipsHead
July 13th, 2006, 02:38 AM
I don't think so? I think command line is great for server but for desktops naah ](*,)

Well in gnome there are 100 things for every 2 things you can do with your mouse clicks.

You are severely restricted by options hidden from you in the gui.

Mostly because the gnome devs think you are a complete moron who can't choos the printout quality or a direct filtered format.

PhilipsHead
July 13th, 2006, 02:40 AM
The problem is, not everybody is as talented as you. :D

True, some of us do find the command line an extremely fast way to work, but that's because we've had experienced it before. We already had enough knowledge to help us in that area. But for a completely new Linux user, specially one who had very little experience with command lines, to have to go to the command line just to setup an ADSL PPPoE connection (I can relate to that), that's quite a task. I didn't find it personally difficult because I was quite familiar with working on a command line in MS-DOS, and because I spent almost a whole month researching about Linux and how to do things. I doubt your "average" desktop user would be putting in that much time preparing to use Linux.

Look, if windows has its appeal to you, go use it, nobody cares, seriously, NO BODY CARES! if you can't deal with command line options, you are better off with windows, good bye.

PhilipsHead
July 13th, 2006, 02:42 AM
I would not be willing to use Linux without access to the commandline. I find it useful for many tasks, such as file and disk management, configuration, and tasks that will run for a long time but don't require babysitting on my part. With the commandline, I can get a torrent downloading and just leave it alone while I let my wife use the desktop. With the commandline, I can use SSH to connect to my Linux box with my Mac and do things.

You don't have to use it, but don't even think of taking away my shell.

StormyEyes kicks *** in this post... and he is right.

Get with the program or GET OUT of the program!

simonn
July 13th, 2006, 02:44 AM
I know how to open and use an editor. I was trying to make an analogy though perhaps not a good one for constancy of forum reply qualities (or the lack of). I donít need to find another one there are some in this thread, take a look: Statements that contain things like ďsearch for all packages containing XXX in the name and install them allĒ are not really helpful are they?

Honestly, do you think it is fair to compare MDSN to open internet forums?

There is just as much noise (probably called n0yZ or N01z3 though), if not more, on open windows forums.

There is no equivalent to MSDN because all the pieces of a linux distribution do not come from one vendor/developer/whatever. However, all the APIs I have needed to use on linux are very well documented and can be installed on a PC running ubuntu using apt/synaptic etc from one location (and without using 100s of Mbs).

Again, if worst comes to worst, you can actually look at what the source code is doing too, something that you can rarely do with windows applications.


This is why the faceless corporations choose Ms because they get the funding to organize the (limited) support they offer so its cleer.

I think this is a severe over simplification. Corps. use windows, because their staff know it, you do not get sacked for buying IB^V^Vmicrosoft, managers covering their arses by having another company to blame when things go wrong and not being familiar with linux so are scared of it, windows support staff are cheap, they have loads of business critical bespoke software which already runs on windows which they do not have the expertise/source code/budget/willingness/need to redevelop for another platform, finance dept relies on VBA macro intensive excel spreadsheets, the migration would be too costly in our quartly reporting world etc

Believe me, and I work in support for a software house, most windows people do not read documentation - this includes sysadmins and developers, so I suspect that "documentationis not in one place" is very low on the list of reasons why not to move to linux from windows.

KiwiNZ
July 13th, 2006, 02:56 AM
philipshead please moderate your posts. remember these are support Forums

Stormy Eyes
July 13th, 2006, 02:59 AM
Get with the program or GET OUT of the program!

Thanks, but I wouldn't go that far. IMO, the shell is there for a reason. If you want to use a graphical shell, more power to you. However, I don't think a graphical shell (which is what GNOME on top of X is, KDE on top of X, etc.) will ever offer the power, flexibility, and potential for automation of a text shell.

There's a reason that Unix has persisted in one form or another for over 30 years. The reason Unix is still going strong is that one aspect of its design philosophy -- create tools that do a single task well and allow the user to chain the tools together as he deems fit -- works reasonably well for those willing to learn how to use the system.

PhilipsHead
July 13th, 2006, 03:06 AM
Thanks, but I wouldn't go that far. IMO, the shell is there for a reason. If you want to use a graphical shell, more power to you. However, I don't think a graphical shell (which is what GNOME on top of X is, KDE on top of X, etc.) will ever offer the power, flexibility, and potential for automation of a text shell.

There's a reason that Unix has persisted in one form or another for over 30 years. The reason Unix is still going strong is that one aspect of its design philosophy -- create tools that do a single task well and allow the user to chain the tools together as he deems fit -- works reasonably well for those willing to learn how to use the system.

And your welcome but you missed my point.

The deal is that you have the windows shell and the various unix shells, if you prefer the windows shell, well i'm not going to even try to talk anyone out of using it. Hence my response.

PhilipsHead
July 13th, 2006, 03:10 AM
philipshead please moderate your posts. remember these are support Forums

WHOA, here i was, thinking i was posting in the community discussion area... ;)

Thanks for... umm ;)

slimdog360
July 13th, 2006, 03:30 AM
I just don't get the f***ing hype where every damn Windows user tells you: Windows is soo easy blahblahblah. I've found it only harder. (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=214298)

So now we're even.

Ask a question, and you'll get an answer. Rant, and you'll get a rant in return.

lol

ericesque
July 13th, 2006, 06:01 AM
Learning linux reminds me a lot of learning how to drive stick if you started on automatic.

I started out in a 1992 Chrystler New Yorker--automatic. Drove it from 16 to about 18. Never touched a manual. Then when it was time to get a new ride, I decided I really wanted manual (Gone in 60 Seconds has a way of making stick look very slick). So I got a Saturn SL1. 4-cyl 1.9 liter 5-speed manual. I bought the Saturn before I even knew how to drive stick.

So I get my new (used) car home and that night I went out with my dad and received my first lesson. Lesson 1: stick is NOT automatic. I was stalling out and bucking that SL1 like I was trying to wreck it. After a few frustrating hours, we went home. I was not the 'natural' I'd hoped to be. I was fuming and didn't want to look at the car for a week.

That attitude went away after dinner (food has a way of changing my mood :) ) I decided that I wanted another go. My dad and I set out again. He tried explaining how to work the pedals a little different and let me just play around until I started to understand where the clutch started to engage and when to give it a little gas. In a few more hours I was able to get around alright.

Over the next few months I began to drive around town--frustrated by a few stall outs at lights, but aside from a bruised ego, I was really beginning to enjoy the new freedom I felt.

Fast forward to the present: I would NEVER buy an automatic again. Stick is so fun to drive. Having total control over when you shift makes a HUGE difference in how much power you feel under your foot. Now I could leave plenty of 6-cyl automatics sitting at the starting line with my little 4-cyl. It's still no performance car, but at least I can make the most out of what I've got.

Now apply that (much longer than intened) story to Linux: Change is rarely perceived as easy. You're going to be frustrated at first. I can promise you that. You have to find pleasure in getting past the hang-ups and take pride when you overcome them. You'll get on your feet pretty quickly if you give linux an honest chance with the right attitude and mindset. It'll take a few months at a minimum to feel real comfortable with all the new options you have. Enjoy the exploration. Use the community.

Final note/tip:
Do share your frustration from time to time. When I started, I did--in a positive manner-- and typically learned a lot from people's comments. Instead of ranting about how hard you find linux, pose a question like: Why do you find linux easier than windows? People will not perceive this as an attack and will be more than happy to give you a list of reasons--many of which you had no idea you could do!

I really hope a few people read this. I spent way too much time on it :-D

RAV TUX
July 13th, 2006, 06:21 AM
I just dont get the f***ing hype were every damn linux user tells you: Linux is soo easy blablabla. Ive only found it harder. Everytime I have to put some kind of terminal command, it screws up and says theres, no such thing and what do I know. My installation was a pain in the ***. It wouldent get that I wanted to install linux on a 5gb partition, and save the 15 as a fat32. So I just made it afterword. And when I then start up ubuntu, I find out I cant enter my fat32 partition, and there arent any problems to access it in Windows. But I dont wanna leave Linux. I myself just find Windows easier to use.

There I said it, and no I am not proud only MAD! ](*,)

1. I acknowledge your existence.

2. never mind.

fuscia
July 13th, 2006, 09:10 AM
don't your friends and neighbors gape in awe of you when you type a few lines of total jibberish into a terminal? that's power. ;)

tseliot
July 13th, 2006, 09:45 AM
I just dont get the f***ing hype were every damn linux user tells you: Linux is soo easy blablabla. Ive only found it harder. Everytime I have to put some kind of terminal command, it screws up and says theres, no such thing and what do I know. My installation was a pain in the ***. It wouldent get that I wanted to install linux on a 5gb partition, and save the 15 as a fat32. So I just made it afterword. And when I then start up ubuntu, I find out I cant enter my fat32 partition, and there arent any problems to access it in Windows. But I dont wanna leave Linux. I myself just find Windows easier to use.

There I said it, and no I am not proud only MAD! ](*,)

There are distributions in which you don't have to use the command line, e.g. Linspire, Xandros (but they are commercial distros). Also SLED shouldn't be bad in that regard.

PCLinux OS is free and very easy to use. There are plenty of GUIs a la Windows.

And BTW did you ever install Windows?

mech7
July 13th, 2006, 10:50 AM
I agree.. I think if linux ever wants to be a mainstream OS which everybody can use people will have to be able to choose between doing things through the GUI or through the Commandline.


The problem is, not everybody is as talented as you. :D

True, some of us do find the command line an extremely fast way to work, but that's because we've had experienced it before. We already had enough knowledge to help us in that area. But for a completely new Linux user, specially one who had very little experience with command lines, to have to go to the command line just to setup an ADSL PPPoE connection (I can relate to that), that's quite a task. I didn't find it personally difficult because I was quite familiar with working on a command line in MS-DOS, and because I spent almost a whole month researching about Linux and how to do things. I doubt your "average" desktop user would be putting in that much time preparing to use Linux.

3rdalbum
July 13th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Entering commands wrong in the terminal: You can press Tab for an autocomplete. Ubuntu's terminal does this pretty nicely; the autocomplete is actually smart enough to do autocomplete of options for some programs, making it very pleasant to work with :)
Just type the first few letters of a command (eg: "pow" for "poweroff") and hit tab, and it will give you the command or a list of commands starting with those letters.

If you really want auto-completion power, install Fish. It comes as a Debian package so you can double-click it to install it, just like Windows! :-)

I'm going to tell you a sad story.

When my grandmother was a little girl, somebody started teaching her to ride a bike. When she got to the point where she could stay upright, she tried riding down a hill. She had heard somewhere about people being flipped over the handlebars (by pulling the front brake), so she didn't brake, and she went straight into a prickly bush.

She never rode a bicycle again.

When my grandmother got a bit older, someone tried to teach her to drive a car. But then, another person tried teaching her in a 4WD on a road next to a ditch, and my grandmother was scared that she was going to put this big car into the ditch accidentally.

So she never drove again.

The moral of the story is: Have faith in yourself, and continue your learning, or you'll miss out in life. Continue your Linux adventure at all costs.

kabus
July 13th, 2006, 11:06 AM
I agree.. I think if linux ever wants to be a mainstream OS which everybody can use people will have to be able to choose between doing things through the GUI or through the Commandline.

"Linux" doesn't want anything.

tseliot
July 13th, 2006, 11:18 AM
"Linux" doesn't want anything.

And that's because "linux" is only a kernel and not an entire OS ;)

skull_leader
July 13th, 2006, 11:26 AM
Dude, I think everyone has at least a few "Why am I even TRYING to use Linux?!" moments. I just found out that every time I "CTRL + ALT + BACKSPACE," I have to reconfigure my xorg.conf to get back into my desktop. Not only that, but all my mouse settings are out the window once I do, AND my monitor is missing an inch of space until I run xvidtune.

I'm not even done... There's 10 Ubuntu entries in my Grub loader. WTF is that?!



I do hope you stick around long enough to find that Linux *is* easier, faster, and more fun in many [most?] ways. ;)

mhancoc7
July 13th, 2006, 11:39 AM
I started using Linux when Ubuntu (Warty Warthog) came out. It was quite a learning curve indeed. I started, stalled, gave up, and came back again. I now feel very comfortable with the command line. I am no command line guru, but I don't freak out about it any more. Some things I click some things I type into the command line. It is nice to have the option.

I have found that Linux sometimes takes a while to get it set up just right, but once it is running it just works. For me Windoze usually sets up quick, but after a few months things start to slow down. Then I remember that I have not defraged it lately. After about an hour of defraging I find out I have a virus.

It is all a matter of perspective. Stick with it and one day you will look back and laugh.

Jereme

Virogenesis
July 13th, 2006, 03:36 PM
It's funny this thread's title mentions Ubuntu and not Linux in general.

I agree there is a lot of Linux documentation and help that assumes too much of the new user, but the Ubuntu documentation and help is what got me into Ubuntu in the first place.

The forum members really explained things step by step, and the Ubuntu Guide had some really great copy-and-paste commands all on one page.
Its a good title because other distros are faster than ubuntu so comparing windows to ubuntu is perfectly fine.

I do find that windows tricks you into believing that everything has loaded up but that isn't the case as they load up the desktop before the system is fully loaded and functional when you see the desktop on ubuntu its usable windows on the other hand makes you wait for services...etc to start.

Also I do find ubuntu is move stable.
Eg: copying over from a usb 2 hard drive at usb2 speeds and watching a film.... plus doing other stuff i saw no slow down what so ever nor did i feel like the system was going to crash.

Mr_J_
July 13th, 2006, 06:04 PM
I've seen the performance on both and I can safelly say that Ubuntu will probably win a few years from now when multi-cores are more common.

Right now both are pretty much the same.
Windows looks like if it's done when you can't do anything with it; and Ubuntu doesn't show you anything until you can use it.
Diferences aside there it's pretty much equal for me.

Although if I have like 4 programs open, then ubuntu wins.

The best thing you might find about Ubuntu is the fact that it's perfomance will need some serious hits to degrade, unlike in windows where it's a fact no matter what you do, the more you use it, the less speed you have.

Some things could be improved, and on many windows machines those tweaks have been put into place, where in Ubuntu they usually haven't.

Ubuntu has performance issues on many programs the last time I checked because of several other tinny things it needs for those programs. Windows has many of those shared, Ubuntu can't make that happen. I'm refering to the programs libraries...

Overall thinking aside, Ubuntu is pretty much on the same level as Windows. Some have issues on one end, while the other hasn't got those issues, but another completelly diferent set.

Like I mentioned before...
Ubuntu works better for me when there are several programs opened because it doesn't slow down there. Windows does slow down when those same, or equivalent programs are opened.

In case you are wondering... I don't have a multi-core processor.
Just an AMD at 2000MHZ.

mips
July 13th, 2006, 06:38 PM
Please try this http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=189192

as prelinking alone made my system significantly faster.

Note360
July 13th, 2006, 07:26 PM
let us realize that Gnu/Linux is more of an idea than a Operating System even if Microsoft kills it it will still exist. Metaphorically Linux is a pheonix that will rize from its ashes and the release of ubuntu after that will be something like Smothering(Rising) Pheonix. However, I do think we need some sort of leader or something to stop the infighting between both distros and desktop environments (Gnome KDE) and programming languages. We are raging a civil war amongst a small community we have walls put up making it hard for new people to come in. I think we need to unify a bit but keep chaos. How is this possible it aint.

loser72555
July 14th, 2006, 12:35 PM
I am running paperport in VMware and have no problems.

I am also a subscriber to MAXVIEW, the linux port to paperport.

If you want Ubuntu kernel and a simple interface. MEPIS is the place to go.

Posts like this where you fly in, lob your complaints and then say "don't bother replying" are juvenile.

3rdalbum
July 14th, 2006, 12:38 PM
There's not really a lot of infighting. There's a distinct coldness between Debian and Ubuntu, but other than that everyone gets along well. Gnome and KDE users don't generally flame eachother. Debian packages and RPMs are interchangable. I don't know about programming languages, but I don't think they're fighting either. There are continual efforts to get Gnome and KDE inter-operating better.

sulobanks
July 14th, 2006, 08:36 PM
As a long time linux user who has spent very long periods of time not even touching a windows system, I'll have to strongly disagree with people who say linux isn't ready for the desktop. I think it's the opposite. When I finally had to use windows again last month, I was terribly frustrated at how difficult it was to get things done. Microsoft Office 2003 is a huge disappointment and when trying to copy and paste between excel and powerpoint, I got all sorts of screen garbage. Virus scan software got in the way. The firewall got in the way. IE crashed. Microsoft wanted to install some sort of spyware called "Microsoft Genuine Advantage". I find it hard to believe anyone still wants to use windows. My linux system might have required the editing of a few text files to get things configured the way I want, but after that all my software works exactly the way I expect it to work every time I use it. I've never had that experience on windows.

ensiferum
July 15th, 2006, 11:27 AM
Is Ubuntu ready to take over the desktops of the Average Joe?

Dont think so.

Despite of all the efforts made by the Linux and Ubuntu community I dont think it will ever make it there untill someone starts throwing some serious money at it. As it is now the system is nothing but patchwork of a wild set of libraries and config files and as such extremely fragile. A simple change in one place launches a butterfly effect cascading through the whole system and with any bad luck rendering the installation wholly broken.

Also the use of the system is always hindered by a random set of nagging problems that take lots of time to resolve. A naive person would think that as a "learning experince" but unfortunately there is no carry over of this knowledge cause its use is one time only and a new installation/upgrade will have different problems. So the only thing you learn is that you're wasting your time wrestling all these small and big issues instead of using your computer to get your stuff done.

Here's my Dapper Drake installation demonstrating some problems out of the box:

Hardware:
ABIT 875P, Intel P4 2.6Ghz.
2 * SATA HD (WD, Maxtor)
1 * CDR-ROM (IDE)
1 * DVD-ROM (IDE)


o Kernel SCSI driver ata_piix.ko floods error messages into kernel ring buffer.
After running the system for half an hour syslog is about 60Mb. Also when switching over
to another tty it gets flooded with error messages.

"PIO Error"
"ata2: no sense translation for 0x20"
"ata2: no sense translation for status 0x51"

After (a lot of) research I found a post on lkml.org saying that those error message are mundane.

Solution:
download 2.6.15 source, hack into scsi-core.c and comment out the "printk" log function call, build and install
custom kernel.


o After configuring (using the stock kernel config as basis), compiling and installing both kernel and modules
and configuring /boot/grub/menu.lst the new kernel refuses to boot.

"WARNING: cannot open /lib/modules/2.6.15"
"FATAL ERROR: cannot open /lib/modules/2.6.15/modules.dep.temp for writing"

Real solution:
Unknown

Workaround 1:
create a symlink in the stock kernel driver folder pointing to the new scsi driver folder. Rename old.
But this doesnt work. Old ata_piix.ko is still loaded.


Workaround 2:
Copy new modules over.

o Mounting NFS partitions takes a long time and even though it succeedes eventually (after the sun has gone past horizon).

Solution:
Research reveals, reinstalling nfs-common might help. However as it turns out it is not installed to begin with, yet system
doesn't give a descriptive error message (as usually is given when type is not known or mountable) but sits quiet.

o Installing NVIDIA driver off the synaptic fails. Once lib-glx and NVIDIA driver are installed and automagically configured X refuses to run.

"cannot load library "glx"
"cannot load library "nvidia".
"no screens found yadi yadi yadi".

Solution:
Uninstall nvidia and glx packages. Download driver from nvidia website and kernel headers from synaptic. Close X server, build NVIDIA driver and run the nvidia config tool again.

o Switching over to another tty2 twice hangs X (or whatever). I think this is a problem in NVIDIA driver.

Solution:
Get someone fix Linux so that major players, such as Nvidia, have the interest to produce something proper.


And then some smaller yet frustrating, aggrevating, annoying, bloodlust raising problems.

o Mouse semi works. I.e forward/backward buttons do not work.

Solution:
Download and install imwheel from synaptic. Configure xorg.conf (Options ZAxisMapping "4 5", Option Buttons "7"),
configure imwheel (IMWHEEL_PARAMS="b 0089").

o .fluxrc is not run when logging on.
- gnome-config-daemon does not get started and gtk2 theme does not get applied
- fluxbox desktop background does not get set

o System is using UTF-8 locale. Scandinavian characters mess up in terminal (and in the manpage??)

Solution:
Unknown

o XEmacs menu bar has font size 68pt. Very annoying. (gtk1 theme problem??)
Solution:
Unknown


And the list goes on... ](*,)

I consider myself a computer literate person, being a programmer by profession. Yet it takes time (days) heaps of effort and determination to get a the system running without snags.
How is Joe the Average who can barely run the basic office tools to get his job done supposed to get these issues resolved? He isnt. And thats why Linux will stay as a hacker platform, unreachable by the masses.

matthew
July 15th, 2006, 12:10 PM
I'm sorry you have had so many difficulties. There are many who have had their attempts at installation work perfectly the first time without all the problems you have had. There are a lot of complete neophytes using these forums and posting their positive experiences.

I'm no zealot, but I am a practical person. If a person shows me data I will be convinced. All you have shown here is one person's experience. This tells me that Ubuntu Linux is not ready for your personal desktop without tweaking. I'm afraid that does not qualify you to speak for the "average joe," whoever that is. If you want to complain about your experience it sounds like you have a reason to do so. Don't let yourself believe that qualifies you to speak on behalf of the nameless, faceless masses whose data are not being presented as evidence to support your argument.

On the other hand, if you just needed to blow off some steam, that's cool. I hope it helped. :)

ensiferum
July 15th, 2006, 01:00 PM
matthew,

I have had experience with numerous Linux installations, RH7.2, RH8.1, Slackware 8.1, Slackware 9.1, Mandrake x, Suse, Debian 3.2, Ubuntu Wharty and now Ubuntu Dapper.

All these installations have been done over a big set of different hardrware both new and old, and not a single one has worked flawlesly out of the box. Either there are heaps of problems in the installations, or then its just me and some really bad karma. Go figure!

However given my experiences, the countless threads of woes on this forum and the busyness of #ubuntu on freenode (which I belive does count as evidence), I belive that blaming these problems on the former reason is not a giant wrongdoing.

BuffaloX
July 15th, 2006, 01:04 PM
Fortunately your experience isn't typical.
Unfortunately it's not entirely atypical either.

I don't recognize your problems from the 3 systems I have installed.
Which all have SATA drives.
I did have problems on a system with SIS mobo and ATI graphics,
I have to admit I ended up eith, upgraded the system hardware to solve the problem.

On the the other hand, I observed that the Ubuntu Clients read files from an XP server faster than an XP client???
This is now totally irrelevant, because our XP server has been upgraded to Ubuntu. :p

Both me and my wife, found we had to do more workarounds to install XP than Linux. I had to install diskette drive so I could use an SATA diskette for XP installer, and my wife had to download the onboard nic driver for XP in ubuntu.

matthew
July 15th, 2006, 01:20 PM
I have had experience with numerous Linux installations, RH7.2, RH8.1, Slackware 8.1, Slackware 9.1, Mandrake x, Suse, Debian 3.2, Ubuntu Wharty and now Ubuntu Dapper.

All these installations have been done over a big set of different hardrware both new and old, and not a single one has worked flawlesly out of the box. Either there are heaps of problems in the installations, or then its just me and some really bad karma. Go figure!A lot of it depends on hardware (maybe all of it?). People like you and I are likely to want to buy things that are new, shiny, fast and maybe even a little obscure. We should expect some tweaking with any distro. (Yeah, I've had to do my share...) On the other hand, people who have hardware that is really common and at least 6 months out from original date of issue tend to have very few, if any problems, with a standard installation of a distro intended specifically for the desktop user (i.e. Xandros, Suse, Mandrake, Ubuntu, etc.).

Let me give an anecdotal example from my own experience with Ubuntu. In 2004 I bought a shiny, new Centrino laptop...1.8 GHz Pentium M, Intel ipw2200b/g wireless, ATI Mobility Radeon 9700...you get the idea. I installed Hoary (Ubuntu 5.04 for other reading this who may not know what that is). It worked okay out of the box, but I had to install the ipw firmware and drivers by hand, install/configure/massage the proprietary ATI drivers by hand, enable dma on my drives, etc. Now for you and I that's not a big deal, but I sure wouldn't want my dad trying to do it.

Then again, my dad wouldn't have bought a laptop with my configuration. He would have gone to the local Big Box store and bought the cheapest one he could find that would let him write a letter, check his email, and browse the web on it. He would have bought one with an Intel Celeron (because he knows who Intel is and it's cheap), onboard graphics, and at that time no wireless card. It would be like an installation on my old P3--quick and painless.

Today my configuration is pretty common and it was all enabled by default when I installed Dapper (6.06), the only exception being the ATI 3D acceleration which is a lot easier than it way, but still isn't easy for for a newcomer.

My point wasn't that your ideas didn't have merit, just that claiming to speak for "Joe Average" based on a small amount of data is a tad presumptous (emotion here: even, not accusative...can't think of a better word, though). What Ubuntu is doing is building a device database (Applications->System Tools->Ubuntu Device Database) where as many people as are willing can easily submit data on their hardware setup. The configurations/equipment that is most common gets priority for trying to make it "just work." Your concerns are valid ones and they are shared by the developers.

:)

ensiferum
July 15th, 2006, 01:34 PM
Yes a lot of it depends on the hardware. True and agreed. However my example setup is years old. The motherboard is several years old as well as the disks and SATA as a technology has been out years as well. So what gives?

Im not blaming anyone for these problems, they are a natural consequence derived from many reasons. People producing drivers/software are mostly hobbyists with limited resources and will and some hw vendors refuse to release accurate specifications.

However, regardless of the reasons of the problems, these problems downgrade the value of Linux. The end user doesn't care or should not care about the reasons far up in the chain as to WHY something doesn't work. All he knows is that it doesn't work and that quickly translates into a "Linux doesn't work".

Ignoramus Maximus
July 16th, 2006, 04:20 PM
Until June '06, I had only vaguely heard of Linux.

Then my friend installed Ubuntu 6.06 on my shiny little Shuttle computer two weeks ago. We did the EasyUbuntu routine and voila, it satisfies my needs perfectly. I did feel happier after getting rid of that brown background.

Then I installed Ubuntu on my computer at work (all by myself!): No glitches - Love it there too!

Then I pulled out my Celeron driven old computer that had been gathering dust for a year. I inserted an extra 512 MB RAM for 45$ and installed Kubuntu 6.06. Now that was a bit trickier. I couldn't get support for MP3, JAVA, flash installed. Tried Automatix, errors galore. Next thing one guy on the forum told me to check the SimplyMEPIS 6 distribution. Did that (and it's just a trial version) and guess what, I'm in Linux heaven. Two fine machines at home and another at work. amaroKKing great!

Message: If you have problems with one distribution, check out the others.

As an investor I would certainly be shorting Microsoft shares, and even more my Apple shares. I switched to Apple laptop last year. My next one may very well be a linux machine.

grizzly
July 16th, 2006, 10:55 PM
Just one lil observation, I was planning to help in translation of kubuntu in hindi, then I came to know about that the same apps that I was planning to translate had already been translated atleast 10 times for different distros.
There were minor differences, but largely it was just the same.

Derek Djons
July 16th, 2006, 11:00 PM
It's almost frighting reading the entire doom-scenario of ensiferum. I'm a computer technician, I've build, repaired and maintained thousands of consumer computers. I can tell one thing to ensiferum: "If you have used multiple machines and experienced so many problems, it's bad karma."

Also I had some problems I couldn't solve, hardware and services that did not run 'out of the box' and required some extensive hacking. But with the release of Ubuntu Linux 5.10 all those problems where over. Not only for me, because there are more succes stories on the forum than negative.

It's too bad (due problems which hardly occur, so no wiki to help you :( ) you can't experience Linux distro's as they are meant and being experienced by other people. You're missing quite some fun.

matthew
July 16th, 2006, 11:37 PM
This should really be in the cafe, where I intended to move it earlier...oops. I'll correct that now.

John.Michael.Kane
July 16th, 2006, 11:40 PM
matthew hopefully this thread will not get ugly...

matthew
July 16th, 2006, 11:59 PM
matthew hopefully this thread will not get ugly...I have great hopes it will remain calm, friendly and appropriate. If not, we have the Backyard and the Jail, which we really don't enjoy using. :)

fuscia
July 17th, 2006, 12:09 AM
i'm a lazy end user. if what i'm supposed to read, to make something work, gets boring, i just say "meh" and wing it. my old computer is still running openbox at speeds unheard of for an old POS and my new laptop (came with ubuntu installed) rox way more than getting something with windows installed (fewer instances of AOL to delete). you should be more worried about all the people on the road with you that aren't 'car ready'.

RAV TUX
July 17th, 2006, 12:26 AM
Is Ubuntu ready to take over the desktops of the Average Joe?

Dont think so.

Despite of all the efforts made by the Linux and Ubuntu community I dont think it will ever make it there untill someone starts throwing some serious money at it. As it is now the system is nothing but patchwork of a wild set of libraries and config files and as such extremely fragile. A simple change in one place launches a butterfly effect cascading through the whole system and with any bad luck rendering the installation wholly broken.

Also the use of the system is always hindered by a random set of nagging problems that take lots of time to resolve. A naive person would think that as a "learning experince" but unfortunately there is no carry over of this knowledge cause its use is one time only and a new installation/upgrade will have different problems. So the only thing you learn is that you're wasting your time wrestling all these small and big issues instead of using your computer to get your stuff done.

Here's my Dapper Drake installation demonstrating some problems out of the box:

Hardware:
ABIT 875P, Intel P4 2.6Ghz.
2 * SATA HD (WD, Maxtor)
1 * CDR-ROM (IDE)
1 * DVD-ROM (IDE)


o Kernel SCSI driver ata_piix.ko floods error messages into kernel ring buffer.
After running the system for half an hour syslog is about 60Mb. Also when switching over
to another tty it gets flooded with error messages.

"PIO Error"
"ata2: no sense translation for 0x20"
"ata2: no sense translation for status 0x51"

After (a lot of) research I found a post on lkml.org saying that those error message are mundane.

Solution:
download 2.6.15 source, hack into scsi-core.c and comment out the "printk" log function call, build and install
custom kernel.


o After configuring (using the stock kernel config as basis), compiling and installing both kernel and modules
and configuring /boot/grub/menu.lst the new kernel refuses to boot.

"WARNING: cannot open /lib/modules/2.6.15"
"FATAL ERROR: cannot open /lib/modules/2.6.15/modules.dep.temp for writing"

Real solution:
Unknown

Workaround 1:
create a symlink in the stock kernel driver folder pointing to the new scsi driver folder. Rename old.
But this doesnt work. Old ata_piix.ko is still loaded.


Workaround 2:
Copy new modules over.

o Mounting NFS partitions takes a long time and even though it succeedes eventually (after the sun has gone past horizon).

Solution:
Research reveals, reinstalling nfs-common might help. However as it turns out it is not installed to begin with, yet system
doesn't give a descriptive error message (as usually is given when type is not known or mountable) but sits quiet.

o Installing NVIDIA driver off the synaptic fails. Once lib-glx and NVIDIA driver are installed and automagically configured X refuses to run.

"cannot load library "glx"
"cannot load library "nvidia".
"no screens found yadi yadi yadi".

Solution:
Uninstall nvidia and glx packages. Download driver from nvidia website and kernel headers from synaptic. Close X server, build NVIDIA driver and run the nvidia config tool again.

o Switching over to another tty2 twice hangs X (or whatever). I think this is a problem in NVIDIA driver.

Solution:
Get someone fix Linux so that major players, such as Nvidia, have the interest to produce something proper.


And then some smaller yet frustrating, aggrevating, annoying, bloodlust raising problems.

o Mouse semi works. I.e forward/backward buttons do not work.

Solution:
Download and install imwheel from synaptic. Configure xorg.conf (Options ZAxisMapping "4 5", Option Buttons "7"),
configure imwheel (IMWHEEL_PARAMS="b 0089").

o .fluxrc is not run when logging on.
- gnome-config-daemon does not get started and gtk2 theme does not get applied
- fluxbox desktop background does not get set

o System is using UTF-8 locale. Scandinavian characters mess up in terminal (and in the manpage??)

Solution:
Unknown

o XEmacs menu bar has font size 68pt. Very annoying. (gtk1 theme problem??)
Solution:
Unknown


And the list goes on... ](*,)

I consider myself a computer literate person, being a programmer by profession. Yet it takes time (days) heaps of effort and determination to get a the system running without snags.
How is Joe the Average who can barely run the basic office tools to get his job done supposed to get these issues resolved? He isnt. And thats why Linux will stay as a hacker platform, unreachable by the masses.

I have a hard time seeing this post being nothing more then a flame post, I searched all your post here in the Ubuntuforms to see what you had problems with to lead you to your conclusions through personal expeirence.

out of 11 post most in this thread and the others mostly how you had trouble with your logitech mouse.

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/search.php?searchid=6797613

I don't see your post very legitimate.

therefore I can not comment much further.

henriquemaia
July 17th, 2006, 12:33 AM
I have great hopes it will remain calm, friendly and appropriate. If not, we have the Backyard and the Jail, which we really don't enjoy using. :)

Now it's on the verge of not remaining calm and friendly.

cjking
July 17th, 2006, 12:34 AM
The distros may not operate completely within the true meaning of Open Source,but this all makes for some great competition. Why in the world would we want someone to pull all the distributions under one hat. To have another Mircosoft? To overtake Microsoft? That will never happen. Microsoft has itself embeded in the business world and short of a total meltdown within MS, it will be ontop for a LONG time. The best Linux can hope for is to dig out a ninche. Just like it has been doing.

People should be careful what they wish for.

Carrots171
July 17th, 2006, 12:37 AM
Why are we expecting that an OS installs flawlessly out-of-the-box on every piece of hardware? Linux doesn't, and Windows doesn't either. The "average home user" most likely won't ever install an OS - he/she will use whatever comes pre-installed on his/her computer.

plexi50
July 17th, 2006, 12:55 AM
As a comparison, I just had to do a fresh install of MS to a Dell desktop for a client. Not the oldest hardware, P4, 512ram,DVD, usb kb/mouse and Netgear usb wireless. I used his original Windows disc, so no auth problems...but, after install I had to download drivers for the Netgear usb, using Ubuntu btw, so I could even connect to the internet. Then followed and evenings worth of security updates. Next day, install software so you could actually use the computer for something (Office, Adobe, AVG, various utilities, Winamp) Total time: around 5 hours. Just for kicks, I installed Ubuntu, 45 min, done. Everything worked, sure a few updates, but the system was working in 45 min, ready to do pretty much anything the average user could want. Windows is no more new-user friendly than Linux. I have people hire me to install their new hardware all the time in MS cause they can't sort out the drivers. We are just used to the hassles cause we have done it so many times (how many time have you had to reinstall Windows after it was hosed by some virus/spyware/or faulty dll?) You get good at it after a while. If you twiddle with any OS you can break it. If you keep the safe course, it will run for a long time, but I believe Windows is broken and cannot be easily fixed by assorted patches and updates. Linux is easier to patch and fix due to its file structure and design. There will always be "geeks" that can help the "noobies" no matter what OS you choose. This one is just better..........

Carrots171
July 17th, 2006, 12:57 AM
As a comparison, I just had to do a fresh install of MS to a Dell desktop for a client. Not the oldest hardware, P4, 512ram,DVD, usb kb/mouse and Netgear usb wireless. I used his original Windows disc, so no auth problems...but, after install I had to download drivers for the Netgear usb, using Ubuntu btw, so I could even connect to the internet. Then followed and evenings worth of security updates. Next day, install software so you could actually use the computer for something (Office, Adobe, AVG, various utilities, Winamp) Total time: around 5 hours. Just for kicks, I installed Ubuntu, 45 min, done. Everything worked, sure a few updates, but the system was working in 45 min, ready to do pretty much anything the average user could want. Windows is no more new-user friendly than Linux.

Thanks. You hit the nail on the head.

BuffaloX
July 17th, 2006, 01:10 AM
>> plexi50

I second that, pretty much my experience too.

wieser100
July 17th, 2006, 01:14 AM
i am a complete idiot when it comes to working the command line and the biggest problem i have is trying to find out what the commands are.i do have this machine set up to dual boot with xp and when i switch from xp to ubuntu the networking dont work unless i shut off the power strip it is plugged into with the machine on. as long as i stay in ubuntu it works perfect even when i shut it off. the big problem is no built in trouble shooting guides that dont involve internet. that and most of us newbies dont understand the command line at all. some basic introduction to this would greatly help a lot of us out here who would like to try linux but some simple problem keeps it from working properly. i like ubuntu but the command line can be a royal pain and a SIMPLE DISCRIPTION and list of basic commands listed in the installation where they can be easily found will help win a lot of new users who otherwise just switch back to windows. and theses forums can be a bit overwhelming at first.

John.Michael.Kane
July 17th, 2006, 01:16 AM
I guess the concensous here is that all OperatingSystems have there strong points,and week points. also that user error can aswell be a deciding factor with the issues expreinced by some endusers.

hizaguchi
July 17th, 2006, 04:14 AM
That's odd, because when I first started out with Linux I was a pretty average user, and it took over all of my computers in about 2 months. Compared to Windows, it is easier to use, has more capabilities, requires far less effort to maintain, and offers something that the Average Joe desires more than he may realize at first... ownership of his software. Really the only thing arguably less desireable about Ubuntu is the initial setup. And that's only because it doesn't come preinstalled on most computers.

But then again, I guess it depends on how you define the Average Joe.

If "average" means "not willing to put any more effort into his computer than into his toaster", then no OS is ready to take over the average desktop. It wouldn't matter if his computer came with Dos, he wouldn't change.

If "average" means "devoid of technical ability but able to ask good questions and follow simple directions in the interest of a better computing experience", then I don't see a problem.

ubuntoy
July 17th, 2006, 05:32 AM
I consider myself a computer literate person, being a programmer by profession. Yet it takes time (days) heaps of effort and determination to get a the system running without snags.
How is Joe the Average who can barely run the basic office tools to get his job done supposed to get these issues resolved? He isnt. And thats why Linux will stay as a hacker platform, unreachable by the masses.

i dont know, when i installed ubuntu, it already have an office tools. it does not required me to buy one install one or read and understand the EULA in non-laymans term.

my cousin use my computer and he doesnt know whats the difference between ms office from openoffice neither IE from firefox, he just click the icons in the desktop and finish his work. he doesnt even know he's using linux. he thinks its just one of those graphical enhancements i always install in my windows desktop days.

an average guy wouldnt even notice his monitor is running 60hz, and hes starts to complain why he is having a headache.

lets talk aboutt unreachable by the masses when the price tag shows up.

Christmas
July 17th, 2006, 06:31 AM
But then again, I guess it depends on how you define the Average Joe.

If "average" means "not willing to put any more effort into his computer than into his toaster", then no OS is ready to take over the average desktop. It wouldn't matter if his computer came with Dos, he wouldn't change.

If "average" means "devoid of technical ability but able to ask good questions and follow simple directions in the interest of a better computing experience", then I don't see a problem.
I agree with you on this. I know persons who learnt to use Windows and when they try Linux they have the wrong impression that the way things work in Windows will be the way things work in Linux. And there's is no interest for them to try to edit a configuration file or write two or more commands in a shell. Actually they do the same on Windows too. If something is not too hard, but unusual for them, they won't make the effort to learn something new.
Good point hizaguchi.

encompass
July 17th, 2006, 07:42 AM
pay ubuntu linux 120 bucks for every single systems you put it on ... and I garruntee that we would blow you away.
These things are free... with out a doubt free. Additionally, I have been doing things the people in windows don't even know is possible.

hatman
July 17th, 2006, 07:51 AM
I'd just like to add something here, I too am an ex-Windows user... since Windows 2 and have "grown up" with the various guises of Windows... and never thought in a milion years that I would EVER use Linux.. but here I am, struggling on the odd occasion (ok it's more than odd - lol) BUT, I am getting there and learning (like we had to with DOS) and I'm kinda enjoying the challenge of it all... And with EXCELLENT help around here there really is no need to go back to Windows (except for the Publisher files I need to open every now and then (must remember to check if it works with WINE))...

So, dont think that you are alone, there are other Windows gurus out there who are now Linux n00bs....:p

kornelix
July 17th, 2006, 09:13 AM
pay ubuntu linux 120 bucks for every single systems you put it on ... and I garruntee that we would blow you away.
These things are free... with out a doubt free. Additionally, I have been doing things the people in windows don't even know is possible.

Many of us would prefer to pay the $120 rather than struggle for days (months?) trying to get everything installed and working properly.

Let us hear more about the things you do that are impossible in Windows.

Derek Djons
July 17th, 2006, 09:25 AM
>> plexi50

I second that, pretty much my experience too.

True, same here. Ubuntu Linux is for me the easiest OS to setup. Yesterday I started installing Ubuntu Linux around 3:00pm and was finished with configuring, settings, preferences, importing data, setting up email withing a couple of hours. Doing that with Windows almost takes a whole day.

3rdalbum
July 17th, 2006, 11:49 AM
Many of us would prefer to pay the $120 rather than struggle for days (months?) trying to get everything installed and working properly.

Let us hear more about the things you do that are impossible in Windows.

Alas, I paid $600 for a computer with Windows preinstalled, and I struggled for days to get it going securely and productively. As I had never really used Windows before, and my other operating systems were Mac and Ubuntu, it took me weeks to figure out how to get the thing going well.

ensiferum
July 17th, 2006, 04:27 PM
Ok, heaps of replies here, so I cant be bother to quote everyone individually.

To begin with as far as posting on this forum goes, I rather spend my time seeking the solution than trying to explain the problem to someone else. Also I have noticed that sadly often tricks that work for someone do not work for someone else.

Its funny how "some" people always get so defensive. "Oooh, but you have to install this and that on Windows XP too." It is just basic defensive dirt throwing and has no real value. Thats people do when they dont have any other means. Useless slandering.

The reason why I installed the latest version of Ubuntu was because my old Ubuntu installation (wharty or hoary) wasn't getting new software. I followed the instructions how to upgrade to the next version before upgrading to newer version again. However I never got that far since the whole installation simply exploded after the first upgrade. (After boot no network devices were found, gnome graphical login didnt start, X didnt run, etc.).

Anyone of you who would like to take a stab at fixing that installation? I bet even the technically bent of you would find that challenging, time consuming and possibly futile.
Now how would you think someone whos is "able to read and follow instructions" is going to get that fixed in his lifetime?

And compared to windows, well I just happen to have a XP installation that's been running few years already. Updated through SP1 and SP2 + heaps of other patches. And it just keeps on running.

Lots of people are contributing and saying how marvelously Ubuntu installed on their system. Thats great, its really good and Im happy for them and for the Ubuntu community for the progress that has been done since there obviously has been some. But has it been enough?

Even if there are no problems simple things such as changing a locale (I want to use english system but have scandinavian keyboard layout without UTF8) a fair bit of hacking. Install a language pack, hack into /etc/environment, /var/lib/locales/supported.d/

And to all of those people who say that it is just me and my problems are isolated incidents. Well then, all the other 1,263,029 posts on these forums must be isolated incidents as well.

Stormy Eyes
July 17th, 2006, 04:31 PM
Is Ubuntu ready to take over the desktops of the Average Joe?

There is no "Average Joe". Stop hoping for mass adoption or "takeovers". It's annoying.

Brunellus
July 17th, 2006, 04:48 PM
There is no "Average Joe". Stop hoping for mass adoption or "takeovers". It's annoying.
mass adoption happened by force. End-users didn't choose IBM PCs with MS-DOS--guys in the procurement departments of the big corps did.

So it will be with Linux or Free Software. Economics will force the issue. Until then, there is the community. The guys with C64's and TRS-80's werent b*tching about the masses' non-adoption of computers back then--why should we be bellyaching now?

awakatanka
July 17th, 2006, 04:56 PM
True, same here. Ubuntu Linux is for me the easiest OS to setup. Yesterday I started installing Ubuntu Linux around 3:00pm and was finished with configuring, settings, preferences, importing data, setting up email withing a couple of hours. Doing that with Windows almost takes a whole day.
Then they should fire you, a computer technici that needs a whole day to setup windows with a few apps doesn't know what he is doing.

1 person has to make 8 pc and install it with all software, that is even with different system spec on a 8 hour workday. If it are all the same pc then you can build and install more.

alan yeates
July 17th, 2006, 05:03 PM
Sorry, but after three years in computer science Ubuntu looks like little boys toys to me, any worthwile coding has a try/catch module, but not much sign of it here!

Footissimo
July 17th, 2006, 05:16 PM
I have a hard time seeing this post being nothing more then a flame post, I searched all your post here in the Ubuntuforms to see what you had problems with to lead you to your conclusions through personal expeirence.

out of 11 post most in this thread and the others mostly how you had trouble with your logitech mouse.

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/search.php?searchid=6797613

I don't see your post very legitimate.

therefore I can not comment much further.

There have been a few of these kind of 'Ubuntu must suck because I can't get it to work, but I didn't bother asking or anything' threads of late. Surely they should just be trashed or else it'll just reinforce people trolling to get answers (rather than asking appropriately)? I know Ubuntuforums are nice and friendly, but lines have to be drawn and boundaries made at some point...

Brunellus
July 17th, 2006, 05:16 PM
Sorry, but after three years in computer science Ubuntu looks like little boys toys to me, any worthwile coding has a try/catch module, but not much sign of it here!
OK, Dr. 31337. Why not go to a real UNIX then, if you're going to be sniffy?

I honestly don't see the point in your coming here and needlessly p***ing on Ubuntu. Let's go over the basics:

1) The devs don't read this forum.

2) If they do, they are not bound to act on anything posted here; and

3) If you were really serious, you'd have done the responsible CompSci thing and at least filed a bug report.

Your postcount seems to indicate precious little due diligence in resolving your particular issues, and a burning desire to complain at the first instance.

Posts like yours make me miss usenet and real killfiles.

BuffaloX
July 17th, 2006, 05:20 PM
Then they should fire you, a computer technici that needs a whole day to setup windows with a few apps doesn't know what he is doing.

1 person has to make 8 pc and install it with all software, that is even with different system spec on a 8 hour workday. If it are all the same pc then you can build and install more.

Weird statement. There are many ways to install when you are at home. Maybe you do something else at the same time. Maybe it's a very high level of customization. My mediaplayer alone took about half an hour to setup from scratch. But that includes remote control via LAN, setting up skins, installing all needed codecs. Icluding downloading to get newest versions.
Of course if I have a backup, it takes only 2 min.
I installed about 30 resident prgrams to make Windows behave as I wish.
Also blocking the correct services, to stop Windows from doing idiotic things. And install/enable other services to make it do more useful things.

The Microsoft friendly way...
Push a button in windows, and it responds:
"I see you are attempting to do something, should I f*ck it up for you now, or wait till later?" :rolleyes:

Stormy Eyes
July 17th, 2006, 05:34 PM
Sorry, but after three years in computer science Ubuntu looks like little boys toys to me, any worthwile coding has a try/catch module, but not much sign of it here!

After six years of coding for a living, your opinion looks a bit naive to me. Worthwhile coding does what it was designed to do. Whether it has a try/catch module or not is irrelevant.

Carrots171
July 17th, 2006, 05:40 PM
Ok, heaps of replies here, so I cant be bother to quote everyone individually.

To begin with as far as posting on this forum goes, I rather spend my time seeking the solution than trying to explain the problem to someone else. Also I have noticed that sadly often tricks that work for someone do not work for someone else.

Its funny how "some" people always get so defensive. "Oooh, but you have to install this and that on Windows XP too." It is just basic defensive dirt throwing and has no real value. Thats people do when they dont have any other means. Useless slandering.

The reason why I installed the latest version of Ubuntu was because my old Ubuntu installation (wharty or hoary) wasn't getting new software. I followed the instructions how to upgrade to the next version before upgrading to newer version again. However I never got that far since the whole installation simply exploded after the first upgrade. (After boot no network devices were found, gnome graphical login didnt start, X didnt run, etc.).

Anyone of you who would like to take a stab at fixing that installation? I bet even the technically bent of you would find that challenging, time consuming and possibly futile.
Now how would you think someone whos is "able to read and follow instructions" is going to get that fixed in his lifetime?

And compared to windows, well I just happen to have a XP installation that's been running few years already. Updated through SP1 and SP2 + heaps of other patches. And it just keeps on running.

Lots of people are contributing and saying how marvelously Ubuntu installed on their system. Thats great, its really good and Im happy for them and for the Ubuntu community for the progress that has been done since there obviously has been some. But has it been enough?

Even if there are no problems simple things such as changing a locale (I want to use english system but have scandinavian keyboard layout without UTF8) a fair bit of hacking. Install a language pack, hack into /etc/environment, /var/lib/locales/supported.d/

And to all of those people who say that it is just me and my problems are isolated incidents. Well then, all the other 1,263,029 posts on these forums must be isolated incidents as well.

You said that Linux isn't "ready to take over the desktops" and that it "isn't ready for Average Joe". Well, if Linux isn't "ready" because of the reasons you gave us, Windows isn't "ready" either, because it can be difficult to install (http://rhosgobel.blogspot.com/2006/06/installing-ubuntu-comparison-of-ubuntu.html) too. "Average Joe" doesn't install operating systems. "Ready for desktop" or not, he uses the OS that comes pre-installed with his computer. And guess what OS comes pre-installed on the vast majority of home PC's? Windows.

BuffaloX
July 17th, 2006, 05:54 PM
mass adoption happened by force. End-users didn't choose IBM PCs with MS-DOS--guys in the procurement departments of the big corps did.


Very good point, I hope we will have REAL choices in the future.
Linux is very nice, But some apps are missing. (mostly games)
Windows is a monopoly, they have too much power, and they only care about market strategy not invention.
MAC is worse than Windows, because Apple controls EVERYTHING on the MAC.
Imagine apple in the position Microsoft has today. It would be even worse than Microsoft.

There are choices but none is perfect imo.
Right now Linux is best, and it's getting better.
Linux is ready to take over the desktop!

ensiferum
July 17th, 2006, 11:45 PM
Was reading a thread called "How many of you completely switched to Linux" just a minute go. Just quite funny how much stuff just jumped on my face just within the first pages!

"no video editor that handles titles and audio track overlays that i have gotten to work yet"

"alsa is not supported on my sound card(cause it sucks)"

"I'm still using winXP as my primary OS because in Ubuntu I can't acces my 240 GB raid array. I don't think I will get it working."


"oh and my scanner doesn't work under linux but they're cheap so I'm just going to buy a new one. Once I get around to it."

"Besides right now I'm pretty crabby with Linux. Been using it for about 2 years now and to this day I still get fustrated. Somedays I just get sick of jumping through hoops to get things to work."

"I still have WinXP on my hard drive, but I only use that for getting my printer to work (it suddenly stopped working one day, I finally reinstalled two pkgs to get it to work again) and to view any vids if I can't get mplayer to work (wmvs won't play for some reason)."

"I am trying my hardest to switch over to ubuntu, but i cant seem to get the internet to work steadily on my main box, once i fix that problem i will probably never use windows again"

"Last night I tried for hours getting a media player to work, and getting her Ipod to work with Fedora- no success"

"But, the only thing that I really haven't been able to do in Linux that I could have easily accomplished with Windows is burning VCDs. It's just so damn complicated that I really haven't bothered with it."

Then I got bored. Some people even admitted having bought software to get stuff working! 8)
Laters people.

encompass
July 18th, 2006, 03:37 AM
Many of us would prefer to pay the $120 rather than struggle for days (months?) trying to get everything installed and working properly.

Let us hear more about the things you do that are impossible in Windows.
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid offers the support you need. But this is for pretty intense stuff... most people never have to go here. I never have. Nor hase anyone I know.

internlover
July 18th, 2006, 03:49 AM
what about topologilinux? it used co-linux to run linux in windows. almost like the predecessor to vmware or something....

macogw
July 18th, 2006, 04:08 AM
Couple links. I actually boycott Walmart for their employment practices and the way they screw over local communities, but as an example, they are selling a Linspire laptop.

http://media.linspire.com/walmart/

Also, here's the article about Mandriva and their HP partnership in South America. Someone commented that you can sell computers to BRAND NEW users with Linux because they don't "know any better", or as we would put it, "know any worse!"
Hey did you notice how that webpage relies on Internet Explorer's "expanding box" model (stretches out boxes when stuff's in them instead of having the text just go right out of the box and the background be the properly-coded size) to look right? It looks wrong in Mozilla because they coded for IE instead of doing it right to begin with.

I'm not a gamer, and I rarely use DVDs (when I do, it's on a tv), so I can't think of anything Linux wouldn't meet my needs for. I haven't looked up BlueJ as an interpretor/compiler for Java, but given that Linux is a very programmer-type OS, I'm thinking there's gotta be something for that (which I'll worry about later).

With the exception of the occasional Sims, my family would do just fine on Linux. All they do is download mp3s, use AIM (and I've had my sister use gAIM with no problem), sometimes type a term paper, and use Google to get info for that term paper. Well, all my mom does is get confused as to how to use Yahoo email and get a new tab in Mozilla (Internet Explorer does NOT get used in my house EVER). But my siblings do the chatting/internet/typing for school stuff...and that's about all they do. They'd be perfect candidates for Linux, but I don't forsee them switching, and I'm not going to try to dual-boot this computer. There's too much to backup and I think dual-boot might confuse them.

Maybe the next time they get my step-brother to build us a new computer I'll talk him into installing Ubuntu instead of Winblows (by then my siblings will have used my laptop enough to learn it a bit...heck I had my sister using it from the live cd yesterday). He'd probably throw a hissy fit about it, but he might go along with it. I don't know if he's ever even used Linux (I highly doubt it). We'll see.

My mom would have absolutely no trouble with Ubuntu, I'm pretty sure of that. She doesn't know enough of Winblows to be confused. She can double click on Mozilla (which I have renamed "Use for Internet") and type her username and password into the yahoo login page (set as the homepage). She can use Microsoft Word--by double-clicking on a file that already exists and backspacing everything out (file->new doesn't happen with her). In short, she can't do **** on Winblows, so she'd be just as good on Ubuntu ;) but it might actually be a bit easier for her to learn.

macogw
July 18th, 2006, 04:41 AM
I picked "wait longer" because it'll take until there are more drivers out there before more people switch. Right now there's too much of the "google it, hope you find something" stuff going on. It would be very very helpful if people in the Linux community were willing to edit existing drivers (or use them as a frame from which to write new ones) to work on Linux. If I could do programming that wasn't just Java (I should get around to learning more languages), I'd just make my own drivers instead of trying to find ones that don't exist or hoping things will work when I buy a computer.

Carrots171
July 18th, 2006, 04:51 AM
Was reading a thread called "How many of you completely switched to Linux" just a minute go. Just quite funny how much stuff just jumped on my face just within the first pages!

"no video editor that handles titles and audio track overlays that i have gotten to work yet"

"alsa is not supported on my sound card(cause it sucks)"

"I'm still using winXP as my primary OS because in Ubuntu I can't acces my 240 GB raid array. I don't think I will get it working."


"oh and my scanner doesn't work under linux but they're cheap so I'm just going to buy a new one. Once I get around to it."

"Besides right now I'm pretty crabby with Linux. Been using it for about 2 years now and to this day I still get fustrated. Somedays I just get sick of jumping through hoops to get things to work."

"I still have WinXP on my hard drive, but I only use that for getting my printer to work (it suddenly stopped working one day, I finally reinstalled two pkgs to get it to work again) and to view any vids if I can't get mplayer to work (wmvs won't play for some reason)."

"I am trying my hardest to switch over to ubuntu, but i cant seem to get the internet to work steadily on my main box, once i fix that problem i will probably never use windows again"

"Last night I tried for hours getting a media player to work, and getting her Ipod to work with Fedora- no success"

"But, the only thing that I really haven't been able to do in Linux that I could have easily accomplished with Windows is burning VCDs. It's just so damn complicated that I really haven't bothered with it."

Then I got bored. Some people even admitted having bought software to get stuff working! 8)
Laters people.

You're starting to sound like you're just posting to annoy people now. Linux doesn't support as much software and hardware as Windows does - it's simply less popular. Imagine if it was the other way around. Imagine if Linux came pre-loaded on the vast majority of PC's. Then, almost every hardware/software maker would support Linux, and almost everything would be supported/work. Unfortunately this isn't the case with Linux; it's the case with Windows. This is changing as Linux gets more popular (Linux is the fastest-growing OS in the world:cool:). ATI, for example, is finally improving their Linux drivers and is taking Linux seriously. So what should you do in the meantime?

1. Do some research (http://www.linuxcompatible.org/compatibility.html) and buy hardware that works well with Linux
2. Buy a computer that comes pre-loaded with Linux (http://www.system76.com/).
3. If you have some hardware that doesn't work well with Linux, that's too bad. Often it isn't Linux's fault but the fault of hardware makers not releasing drivers. Get it to work. There's a whole community here to help you. And if it all doesn't work at all, or if you don't want to get it to work, don't use Linux. Linux isn't the perfect OS for everyone, and neither is Windows or Macintosh. It suits my needs and works with all of the hardware I have, but it's obviously different for you.
4. Help out. There's a tool included with Ubuntu that tells the devlopers about your hardware and helps them improve Ubuntu hardware support. (I'm stuck to a Windows computer for the summer, someone else please say where it is in the Ubuntu menu).
5. If you don't want to do one of the things that I listed above (including "don't use Linux"), then please don't complain. We've already heard what you want to say and as you have pointed out, a lot of people are saying what you've been saying. No offense, but complaining and whining is not going to make Linux "ready for desktop". Thank you.

weasel fierce
July 18th, 2006, 05:23 AM
Who's desktop ?



In the end, these discussions are pointless. Certain hardware manufacturers refuse to give us drivers. This is evidently our fault, hence our software is junk.

Those manufacturers make Windows drivers, hence Microsoft is doing a better job.

Brunellus
July 18th, 2006, 05:36 AM
Once again--"making people switch" is, in my opinion, a vain and irrelevant goal. The quality of software does not necessarily drive mass adoption. Individual consumers tend not to install software on their computers *at all*--either because they are technically disinclined, or because they are simply not permitted to do so by system administrators.

What drove the first great mass adoption of Personal Computers was the IBM PC running MS-DOS. Nobody can tell me that MS-DOS was ever "ready for the desktop," and yet there it was, on every desktop, everywhere. Why? it was cheaper and faster than the competition--things that didn't really matter to individual consumers as much as they did to the guys who ran procurement in big corporations and government agencies.

Windows didn't put PCs everywhere--Lotus 1-2-3 did.

Improvements in Linux are always good, of course. But you'd be kidding yourself if you really believed that the implementation of Feature X was going to cause the masses to achieve enlightenment and migrate to Free Software. It's not going to happen.

The conversion will happen like all great mass conversions--by force. Those same dry procurement guys will be forced to consider Free Software because of the inevitable economics of the development and support model. They won't be Stallmanites any more than the guys who are in charge of buying your IT equipment at work are technologists...but they will certainly know good value when they see it. Indeed, they are compelled to see good value when the shareholders get restless.

If Free Software is really about revolution, then, to quote Chairman Mao, it is not a tea party. Features and chrome are good to lure the enthusiasts. But economics will bring the masses in as the thralls of their bosses.

Carrots171
July 18th, 2006, 05:45 AM
In the end, these discussions are pointless. Certain hardware manufacturers refuse to give us drivers.

Exactly. An OS takes over the home desktop not because it's "desktop ready". It takes over because:

1. More PC makers pre-load the OS, making it more popular.
2. More hardware manufacturers release drivers for the OS, because it's more popular.
3. More software companies make software for the OS, because it's more popular.

The most popular OS accounts for more than 90% of the desktop market. Does that mean it's 90% more "desktop ready" than any other OS? No! Having less drivers for hardware and having less apps is just a consequence of using a less popular OS, no matter how "desktop ready" the OS is. If you want the best hardware and software support, use the most popular OS.If an OS doesn't meet your needs, that doesn't mean that the OS doesn't meet everyone else's needs.

P.S. Ensiferum: You posted quotes from a lot of people having problems with Linux. Are you aware that there are a lot of people having problems with Windows and Mac (and for that matter any OS) too? For example, just search Google for "Windows isn't working" (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=windows+isn%27t+working&btnG=Search). It's the nature of computers and operating systems: things don't work perfectly all the time.

3rdalbum
July 18th, 2006, 09:17 AM
It's ready for my desktop, and it came with Windows preinstalled. The only thing that didn't immediately work was the video, and let's face it, Ubuntu should use vesa by default. One edit of /etc/X11/xorg.conf later, and it worked.

I've been using Macs for over a decade, and I've always bought hardware for the operating system - not expected the operating system to work with just any hardware. Is that too difficult for PC users?

ubuntu_demon
July 18th, 2006, 09:20 AM
This thread is obsolete. I've closed it.

kabus
July 18th, 2006, 09:37 AM
How is Joe the Average who can barely run the basic office tools to get his job done supposed to get these issues resolved? He isnt. And thats why Linux will stay as a hacker platform, unreachable by the masses.

Ah, so not taking over the desktop has only benefits, then.

punkinside
July 18th, 2006, 02:51 PM
How is Joe the Average who can barely run the basic office tools to get his job done supposed to get these issues resolved? He isnt. And thats why Linux will stay as a hacker platform, unreachable by the masses.

This one is a repeat. I've had to reinstall hundreds f**ked up windows systems for friends (yeah, im that guy... y'know? the guy you call when you cant open msn messenger...:rolleyes: ) and, in turn, done just short of 10 ubuntu installations (5.04, 5.10, 6.06 for me & my girlfriend)

The avergage joe does not install an OS, he calls people like me to do it for them. And what is my experience? It takes as much time to have a working windows installation as it takes me to install and customize ubuntu to the max just the way I like everything to be. Supposing one wants to install windows in a box where all the hardware is supported right away you still have to:
1) install anti- virus software, restart.
2) install anti- spyware software, restart.
3) install office software.
4) update office software (security patches, etc)
5) Restart 6 other times as automatic updates requires a restart after almost every single of the 294994 patches it installs.
6) install IM software (cant live without it!) XP comes with that Windows messenger s**t but no one wants it anyway

the whole process, to get to a working installation (without any hardware problems!) and not counting the import/export of data, depending on the hardware takes about 5 or 6 hours

My experience with ubuntu (and I recently installed 6.06 on a brand new DELL laptop without as much as blinking)

1) partition --> only a problem if you dual boot, so, almost always.
2) pop in a CD, answer a few q's

voila! working installation with no need for spyware or anti virus software, office software preloaded and IM. I also have to:

3) download smp kernel from synaptic and restricted modules
4) install ATI driver (why was it so easy for me? i just went: sudo ./ati-driver-XXXX.run, answered questions, went to my xorg and put Driver "fglrx" )

here comes the hard part!
5) install eclipse from add/remove menu, wait for the 100 M to download... go get a cup of coffee, watch some tv, come up and there it is

6) customize the hell out of gnome: i love the mac interface and thats what i get: http://www.ldc.usb.ve/~02-35074/Screenshot.png

one thing that is, in my experience, way easier in windows: setting up a home network.

YMMV

Kilz
July 19th, 2006, 03:44 AM
I will trade the little setup headaches that are solved, then months of no problems. vs Cleaning out spyware, temp files, history, updating anti virus, updating anti spware, cleaning out the spyware that gets in anyway and watching a 1 month old install crawl and limp along because I couldnt find everything.

fatsheep
July 19th, 2006, 05:01 AM
I still think Ubuntu has a ways to go before it can take over the desktop world. Yes it's a great Operating System but they could do a lot to make it better:

#1: Include an autoscript program like automatix or easy ubuntu by default or atleast prominently link to both these programs in the default installation. Both of them, especially automatix, are life savers for a newbie to Linux.
#2: If it's legal, it would be nice if the default Ubuntu installation could come with the microsoft core web fonts. If not it needs to be linked to *very* prominently such as in an official FAQ (#3)
#3: An official FAQ of common linux problem solutions, tricks, etc... that comes as an .odt on the default installation desktop. This is going to be about the first thing the new linux user is going to open and would include things like how to install Sun Java, how to install firefox with flash + other plugins, how to resize and manage partitions, how to configure firestarter firewall, how to install sound and graphics drivers, HOW TO USE THE COMMAND LINE, etc...
#4: Fix the LiveCD installer and gparted issues. Or atleast mention them on the download site.
#5: Stop relying so much on the command line. Ok I know I know it's great for some tasks but the average Joe isn't going to want to use the command line to install stuff and he wouldn't know how to use it anyway. I'm no programmer but is it possible to make a standard GUI Linux application installer so that we could install all applications simply by downloading the files and pushing next a few times? That would be ideal.
#6: Include some kind of easy to use windows emulator by default.

punkinside
July 19th, 2006, 05:21 AM
I still think Ubuntu has a ways to go before it can take over the desktop world. Yes it's a great Operating System but they could do a lot to make it better:

#1: Include an autoscript program like automatix or easy ubuntu by default or atleast prominently link to both these programs in the default installation. Both of them, especially automatix, are life savers for a newbie to Linux.
#2: If it's legal, it would be nice if the default Ubuntu installation could come with the microsoft core web fonts. If not it needs to be linked to *very* prominently such as in an official FAQ (#3)
#3: An official FAQ of common linux problem solutions, tricks, etc... that comes as an .odt on the default installation desktop. This is going to be about the first thing the new linux user is going to open and would include things like how to install Sun Java, how to install firefox with flash + other plugins, how to resize and manage partitions, how to configure firestarter firewall, how to install sound and graphics drivers, HOW TO USE THE COMMAND LINE, etc...
#4: Fix the LiveCD installer and gparted issues. Or atleast mention them on the download site.
#5: Stop relying so much on the command line. Ok I know I know it's great for some tasks but the average Joe isn't going to want to use the command line to install stuff and he wouldn't know how to use it anyway. I'm no programmer but is it possible to make a standard GUI Linux application installer so that we could install all applications simply by downloading the files and pushing next a few times? That would be ideal.
#6: Include some kind of easy to use windows emulator by default.

#6 should be out of the question for me, if you want to use windows, pay for it and use it! Besides, those emulators never seem to run the programs anybody wants to run.

#5 Synaptic seems to be it. Search -> Mark for installation -> apply -> next -> next -> next. Done!

#4 Sorry, dont know what you're talking about. Ignorance is bliss!

#3 & #2 would be really nice

#1 ubuntu does not ship with anything that is not "free" so i dont think that will ever be possible. Its gotten easy enough though.

Upochapo
July 19th, 2006, 06:20 AM
Yeah, I would just like to add my two coppers here. Instead of starting a new one. I think that what the original poster was trying to get at was the idea of approachability. In order for ANY operating system to be successful it has to be approachable by many people. In my limited experience with linux, Ubuntu is probably the closest we have to being user friendly. With the exception of the installer when it comes to partitioning. It is a bit cryptic there. I could be wrong. There may be a better distro that I haven't heard of. I tried to convey a similar message in my experience after I accidently erased my Ubuntu and put PClinuxOS on it by accident. I am sure pclinuxos is a fantastic distro. However, it is daunting and scary in some respects. Looking at it from a beginners POV. The old saying less is more is exactly what linux needs. Throwing five cd burners at someone is just plain silly. Especially, when it only takes one to get the job done. I have noticed this about linux distros. The menus are too cluttered. Start them off simple, then let them expand on their own in their own way and the rest will take care of itself.

Ubuntu itself is geared perfectly toward the average user. I feel that comfortable with ubuntu that I would actually recommend it to people. I am that confident that people will actually look at it and say hey, this IS really cool and not all that difficult. yes, there are learning curves that is to be expected.

And, to be honest, ALL operating systems have their fair share of headaches and ubuntu has them as well. It's just what you are willing to live with, I suppose. As far as sudo goes, that's fantastic. It is just a nice little reminder to people that they are changing a part of their system that has the potential to break it. Yes, it can be a pain. But, again, I'm willing to live with a red flag popping up than installing something and have your os unbootable (which i did one time in windows).

I thought that the original poster did an excellent job of saying what he needed to say. As for everybody else between pages 2-18. My apologies, but that is a lot of reading.

Take care.
Upo.

fatsheep
July 19th, 2006, 09:34 PM
The problem is not everything is in synaptic. What I am talking about is a Linux installation wizard so when you download a linux app you can just click next next done to install it.

Iandefor
July 20th, 2006, 06:48 PM
The problem is not everything is in synaptic. What I am talking about is a Linux installation wizard so when you download a linux app you can just click next next done to install it. There are very good reasons for not doing this. For one, it just makes distributing malware in Linux so much easier. Downloading from a third-party website tends to be a bad idea. Instead of needing to hack into the central repository and all it's mirrors without being noticed, insert malicious code, and get out without leaving a trace (Because as soon as it was noticed malicious code was in the repository, they'd scrub the mofo and set it back up and all you work is for naught), some malware distributor can just set up a semi-legitimate-looking third-party download of some piece of software like Frostwire that just so happens to have a nasty exploit hidden in it.

Also, it also ensures binary compability and dependency satisfaction. When downloading a piece of software for Ubuntu from an Ubuntu repository, you can be sure the dependencies will be installable too.

It's also just difficult because different distributions handle folder hierarchies differently. instead of installing to /usr/bin where it should go in Ubuntu, an executable might get installed to /usr/local/bin, and the pixmap might wind up in /usr/local/share/pixmaps or something.

vloveya08
July 20th, 2006, 07:07 PM
Commenting on the original question of the thread...

Before I begin, I will readily admit that I am currently quite happily using Ubuntu Linux and have decided that I have officially given up on all Microsoft progrmas unless I am forced to use them. This handicap however will be fully explained shortly.

I am semi-computer literate. I cannot create programs or anything of the like, however I am able to look through a list of computer gibberish and come up with a general idea of what it is getting at. I know computer hardware better than software, however, as I built my own computer (granted it's not like it is that difficult, put in a few screws, attach a few wires...thats about it.)

I first installed Windows XP on this computer about a year ago. Reasonable easy, I had it up and running in a few hours with all of the software and games that I was planning on using, and all of my files from the previous computer saved on the hard drive. About 2 months ago, apparently a few files were deleted from the operating system, making it impossible for certain programs to be loaded and run on my computer, which included Quicktime/iTunes which I needed in order to sync my iPod. No big deal, just needed to reinstall XP to reload those files and get it working again. The sticker that doubles as "Certificate of Authenticity" for my particular Windows XP cd did not have or come with the 25 digit code that I needed in order to activate Windows. I called the service place for Microsoft, and after a few tries spanning a week was virtually hung up on because they could do no more.](*,)

I ordered the free cd of Ubuntu, got it, and it installed essentially flawlessly including the wireless network which took several hours in Windows with my dad and I working on it. I have been working out a few bugs for the past few days, typical problems that many people seem to have...playing music, plug-ins for Mozilla Firefox, Java. I had a little trouble especially with trying to get the music player to play mp3s. I posted a thread and was afforded with a polite response with extremely helpful suggestions.

So here's the thing. Ubuntu may not be flawless. It's a computer program, it's not going to be. However, it is not the problem what would make it difficult for someone with very little experience with computers. It doesn't matter what computer system, hardware, software, whatever. It's not going to work by the nature of the beast. It's created by humans and therefore can only work as well as humans can make it, and as we have not reached perfection, neither will computers. It is how easily, quickly, and reasonably the problem can be fixed. Considering how much easier it was to ask for help and how much more attuned to the problem, and the fact that it was free makes Ubuntu a better choice, at least for me.

As a side note...I really think the FAQ suggestion was EXTREMELY good as I have noticed that the majority of my problems seem to be similar to many of the problems that other people have.

I think that's all I have to say...Have a good day!

Justin Straub
July 21st, 2006, 02:31 AM
linux doesn't suck for most consumers, its just not for everyone. the same can be said about macintosh, which is just unix for rich idiots. what i really like about ubuntu is that i can set it up to my own liking and preferences. i also like the fact that it doesn't require expensive hardware to operate.

also, the thing about webcams not working...untrue. i have a webcam from labtec, and it works fine with Camorama Webcam Viewer.

yes, downloading multimedia codecs isnt a walk in the park for most ppl new to linux, but once you have everything running well, then you will probably never encounter any problems, unlike using windows.

so all in all, i'm not really a gamer, i just want my computer to 'work' and i like the fact that software is free. overall, ubuntu is the best operating system i have used (i have used mac os9, mac osX, windows xp and SuSE linux)

ensiferum
July 21st, 2006, 10:08 AM
Im glad that this thread didnt turn nasty.

Im happy for all those people who have had easier life with Linux than with Windows. I wish that maybe one day that happens to me to. So far it just hasn't.

One thing is agreed though. Once you DO get Linux running it will run as it is days to no end, whereas .e.g windows bogs itself down slowly but surely.

fdrake
July 22nd, 2006, 02:37 AM
Linux sucks for most consumers ?????:confused:
I think that most of the consumers suck ...:p

The people that suport Linux want to give an alternative option to everybody else. The purpose of linux is not to spread everywhere and be the #1 OS. That's MS Windows objective.

I saw many threads like this one with the same argoments , and now I realize that many of us are still confused on the linux choice.

Linux is for everybody but it doesn't have to be for everyone.

Sorry for my bad english.

fatsheep
July 22nd, 2006, 04:07 AM
There are very good reasons for not doing this. For one, it just makes distributing malware in Linux so much easier. Downloading from a third-party website tends to be a bad idea. Instead of needing to hack into the central repository and all it's mirrors without being noticed, insert malicious code, and get out without leaving a trace (Because as soon as it was noticed malicious code was in the repository, they'd scrub the mofo and set it back up and all you work is for naught), some malware distributor can just set up a semi-legitimate-looking third-party download of some piece of software like Frostwire that just so happens to have a nasty exploit hidden in it.

Also, it also ensures binary compability and dependency satisfaction. When downloading a piece of software for Ubuntu from an Ubuntu repository, you can be sure the dependencies will be installable too.

It's also just difficult because different distributions handle folder hierarchies differently. instead of installing to /usr/bin where it should go in Ubuntu, an executable might get installed to /usr/local/bin, and the pixmap might wind up in /usr/local/share/pixmaps or something.

Yes, I've learned quite a bit about packages and such since I wrote that so I'm beginning to understand the good sides of this system. HOWEVER, I still think it'd be nice to have GUI programs similar to the debian package installer included in Ubuntu for other types of files such as .run, .sh, and .bin. Or, even better, just have one universal package installer that automatically detects the file type and installs it. :p

GuitarHero
July 22nd, 2006, 05:57 AM
Linux is not for everybody. It simply lacks professional graphic and sound programs, which is why I hope to get a mac book pro when I go to college. Not Windows, not linux, perfect.

jeroach
July 22nd, 2006, 08:16 PM
Anyone have any ideas on why fonts display so poorly on ubuntu? I have tried for hours to get them to look better with no luck. Windows cleartype is a million times better than any settings I have found in gnome and I don't think I can continue using it until I get this fixed. It is driving me crazy.

Any ideas?

kurniawands
July 23rd, 2006, 12:31 PM
Just saw this thread and think it's really interesting to find that Linux isn't sucks at all. There's no such sucks OS, mostly Linux.

I've been using Windows (most of it's generations except Vista) and MacOS (9 to Tiger), till then WGA and Piracy matter comes up here, cop and BSA cleans up streets, malls, plaza and any other pirated CD/DVDs most known selling areas.

So, I have only 3 choises here, buy originals and spend about $4,000 (OS, office, design apps, Video/Audio editing apps, etc) on my $400 PC, or spend 2 years in jail and billed about $50,000 for using pirated softwares, or start using opensource softwares which then I really consider to.

Get to know what Linux is/are, I start googling around and see that there are hundreds of ready to download distro. I have no idea which distro is best for me. I choose Ubuntu for it's rating on many websites :-D . Been trying to use it for 2 weeks now and it's not that hard as I thought before. I don't event get too many problems with terminal, synaptic or even shell script deployments as I've been worried about, since those guides and or tutorials are easily found out on the web, even if I still can't get my scanner works on my Dapper.

So, I think, what makes people afraid of using Linux is much more about perseptions, i.e. many people in my country will think PC = Pentium and every PC needs Windows and Windows is everything you need to work on a PC. I have to explain if there's some other processors, i.e AMD, VIA or something like that, and Windows is an OS, and to do things you'll need many other applications.

I have no idea what microsoft will do, if all those distro developer works together, put their ego somewhere else and start thinking to what people needed (not what some people needed) without sacrificing the opensource philosophy.

Today distros has almost everything we need on a PC, value and stability. Rest can be done by the time. :-D Keep Up The Good Works Guys !!!

altonbr
July 23rd, 2006, 09:27 PM
I hate threads like these, especially because I'm not a Ubuntu flamer but I found this article on Digg that I think many programmers would like to look at. It's almost a conglomerate of complaints about linux. I love linux and I would support it with code if I knew how, but so far, this is the best I can do:

http://digg.com/linux_unix/Why_Linux_isn_t_mainstream



By the way, I enjoy all the CSS changes that have gone on on this site. Every one of them I have enjoyed.

asimon
July 23rd, 2006, 09:40 PM
There is no single market. Linux is already mainstream in several markets.

Lord Illidan
July 23rd, 2006, 09:47 PM
The main problem seems to be wireless devices. But again, is it our fault or is the manufacturer's fault?

I doubt that Microsoft designs as much device drivers as the Linux community does!

Also, I hate the way people are command line phobic. It is a great tool, and NOT a throwback to the 1980s! Vista itself is improving its shell.

Then, Flash and Media formats. Again, not our problem, isn't it? Legal issues and damn old Macromedia are in the way again.

Cryptic names : Here I agree. For example - Krita, GIMP. How in hell can I tell that these are graphic manipulation applications? XMMS, Amarok, XINE, KAFFEINE, VLC : How do I know that these are multimedia apps?

Synaptic is another one, along with many, many others.
Why can't we devise good relevant cool names?

altonbr
July 23rd, 2006, 09:57 PM
Well hell,

I'm a Web Developer student and I have time on my hands...

What can I do to help with this problem? Create/join a committee? But how many of them are out there already? 100's all doing different jobs. Ubuntu almost had the correct idea naming gedit "Text Editor" on the menu.. but then when you're in the command line, and you're new to all of this, are the two names for one program confusing? And I mean vi or vim are also text editors.

blitzd
July 23rd, 2006, 10:41 PM
Cryptic names : Here I agree. For example - Krita, GIMP. How in hell can I tell that these are graphic manipulation applications? XMMS, Amarok, XINE, KAFFEINE, VLC : How do I know that these are multimedia apps?

Synaptic is another one, along with many, many others.
Why can't we devise good relevant cool names?

You mean like say... PowerPoint? Maybe Vista? Dreamweaver? Maya? Google?!? None of those are really descriptive as to what they do - the difference is that they have marketing groups behind them pushing the names of those products in the media. A touch harder to do that with open source software and a marketing budget of 0. But lo and behold, look how much Firefox has started gaining popularity after marketing campaigns - yet it has nothing to do with barbecuing small furry animals. ;)

Coincidentally...

GIMP - GNU Image Manipulation Program
VLC - Video Lan Client
XMMS - X MultiMedia System

And maybe the author of the article is on to something with the using linux at work/using linux at home theory... Maybe if SLED 10 catches on we'll see an increase in popularity for Linux home desktops, who knows.

I personally think the reason why Linux isn't more mainstream though is that most people who aren't computer enthusiasts just don't care what OS they're using. And the vast majority of computer owners I know just aren't the computer enthusiast variety. When you start seeing Linux distros that don't require you to be a computer geek to keep them running, and more commercial applications/games for Linux - then I think you'll see an increase in popularity. SLED 10 seems to be a step in that direction too, by the way - but it's mostly aimed at enterprise desktop users.

lapsey
July 23rd, 2006, 11:49 PM
i think the logic to linux criticism is: "if linux is so great why cant it cook my dinner when i clap my hands?"

matthew
July 23rd, 2006, 11:54 PM
This belongs in the cafe.

Stormy Eyes
July 24th, 2006, 03:00 AM
i think the logic to linux criticism is: "if linux is so great why cant it cook my dinner when i clap my hands?"

Last time I checked the relationship between logic and linux criticism was similar to the relationship between honesty and politics.

prizrak
July 24th, 2006, 03:55 AM
All I can say is that finally a web writer with a brain. I have used Linux on and off since RedHat 6.2 and up till Ubuntu Warty (that was the first one right?) Linux was crap for home users. I never really had much issue with any of my Linux installs due to very generic hardware and preference of nVidia products, however there were always fairly significant issues. Till Open Office there was no decent Word compatible (even tho it's not a 100%) word processor. Flash, A/V stuff was damn near nonexistant, and up till Firefox, IE really was the best browser available (as sad as it may be). After Ubuntu I think the Linux desktop has everything necessary to succeed.

I have been saying from then on that the path to home user adoption is organizational adoption. It doesn't matter that J6P can't install and config Linux (or Windows for that matter), make him use a Linux only application at work and he will go out get "Running Linux" or "Ubuntu Hacks" and learn how to do it because that effort will mean that Mr. 6P will not be staying late at work on a Friday because of a report that is due Monday.

apollo1900
July 24th, 2006, 04:00 AM
If there were more companies that had the option of Linux installed on your brand new fancy-pants computer, well then some adventurous people would go with that option and then spread the word. A good start is a lo-cost system running a lighter-weight Linux distribution. Perfect for all of those bargain finders.






Plus a lot of people might be afraid of the installation. :rolleyes:

Johnsie
July 24th, 2006, 04:08 AM
It's simple.... And we all have a part to play in it. We need to Have Linux on more computers. We also need people to know that "Linux"
isn't hard to learn.

The problem is that people have been stereotyping Linux as difficult to use and get software for. Maybe that was the case in the old days, but we need to show people that is not the case now.

Someone mentioned that the lack of good messengers puts off home users.... They obviously don't know about projects like Wengophone. Check my signature for more info.

aysiu
July 24th, 2006, 04:42 AM
If there were more companies that had the option of Linux installed on your brand new fancy-pants computer, well then some adventurous people would go with that option and then spread the word. I think what needs to happen (and I've seen it on these forums already) is more people need to start buying from the companies who already have Linux preinstalled.

I know, for me (and for a lot of other users), it's very tempting to get a Macbook or a super-cheap Dell laptop, but if you're not building your own PC from parts, the only way to encourage companies to preinstall Linux is to show them it's worth their money to start up such an enterprise.

I'm poor now, and my wife's in school... and, frankly, I don't really need a new computer. But when I get one, I'm probably going to get a System 76. It's not super-cheap, like Dell, but it does come with Ubuntu preloaded, and it's not nearly as expensive as Emperor Linux.

ubuntu_demon
July 24th, 2006, 12:43 PM
I blogged about this here :

Why GNU/Linux isnít mainstream
http://ubuntudemon.wordpress.com/2006/07/22/why-linux-isnt-mainstream/



I think there are four big reasons why more home users donít use GNU/Linux. Not in any particular order :
- Most computer users are like sheep. They just follow the herd. Most people they know use windows and thatís why they use it also.
- There arenít very much commercial games available for GNU/Linux.
- They donít use Linux at work. IMHO for this to slowly change openoffice.org has to become more popular and better Exchange support is needed.
- Thereís better OEM support needed. People should have the choice to have Linux installed on their new pc.

IMHO another (smaller) reason why some home users donít use GNU/Linux is :
- Most hardware companies donít cooperate very well with the open source community. Luckily most GNU/Linux distributions work very well with most hardware out of the box. But some hardware just doesnít play nice with GNU/Linux.

ubuntu_demon
July 24th, 2006, 12:46 PM
I think what needs to happen (and I've seen it on these forums already) is more people need to start buying from the companies who already have Linux preinstalled.

I know, for me (and for a lot of other users), it's very tempting to get a Macbook or a super-cheap Dell laptop, but if you're not building your own PC from parts, the only way to encourage companies to preinstall Linux is to show them it's worth their money to start up such an enterprise.

I'm poor now, and my wife's in school... and, frankly, I don't really need a new computer. But when I get one, I'm probably going to get a System 76. It's not super-cheap, like Dell, but it does come with Ubuntu preloaded, and it's not nearly as expensive as Emperor Linux.

Good point. I agree if you have the money you should support companies like system76.

Yossarian
July 24th, 2006, 02:15 PM
<1337>I liked Linux better... before it sold out!</1337>

prizrak
July 24th, 2006, 04:07 PM
Good point. I agree if you have the money you should support companies like system76.

Sadly they do not always offer things that I like/want. For instance System76 machines don't have working card readers while my originally Windows machine does. Also no convertible machines (tablet+laptop) for good price. On the other hand if you want a desktop there is really no excuse not to get one from System76 unless you like customizing.

Enigmus
July 24th, 2006, 04:12 PM
I think the reason that Linux isn't entirely mainstream is because of it's complexity and the fact that Microsoft pretty much dominates the market.

vek
July 24th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Most folks I know, when asked why they wouldn't consider linux, say "Games".

In the end, a person can go on about cedega, blah blah blah, until they're blue in the face, but its not going to beat them being able to put the CD into their pc and play within 5 minutes on the very latest games. Which is why a lot of them have a PC.

However, funnily enough, more and more folks are moving onto consoles for games, and leaving their PCs. This means people might buy an XBOX for games, then switch to linux on their PC for getting stuff done.

aysiu
July 24th, 2006, 07:54 PM
Most folks I know, when asked why they wouldn't consider linux, say "Games". We must run in different circles, then. All the gamers I know use consoles (Gamecube, XBox, PS2), and all the folks I know consider Mac OS X "mainstream."

Stormy Eyes
July 24th, 2006, 09:53 PM
Most folks I know, when asked why they wouldn't consider linux, say "Games".

Let them use Windows and continue to suffer, then. PC gaming, IMO, is overrated.

DoctorMO
July 24th, 2006, 10:03 PM
Computer gaming full stop is over rated, the best games I've had are with real people anyway. and the computer games I like are on linux, card games, tile games, I would like to see more strat game projects because at least then I could contribute my GUI abilities to them (just like I did with freecraft in the good old days)

prizrak
July 24th, 2006, 11:59 PM
There are only racing sims and space combat flight sims. Nothing else is worth the time. Unfortunately the last good space combat sim was starlancer so Windows has outlived it's usefulness.

Adamant1988
July 25th, 2006, 01:28 AM
Everyone here is going to point to some technical aspect of switching to Linux that was difficult for them and *that* is the reason linux isn't mainstream.

I think the reason linux isn't mainstream is not a problem with linux per-say but with the Users. When you think of operating systems, you think of (in no particular order) Mac OSX, Windows, and Linux as the biggies.
The problem with this 'big three' idea is that Linux really isn't an operating system all in it's own. Linux is more like a plethora of operating systems that are compatible with one another.

But people don't know that, they're not educated about it. They think Linux is all CLI and that it's one Operating system all in it's own. So, what happens when people try to switch to 'linux' they find out there is no 'linux' as they thought of it and the task suddenly becomes a lot more daunting than would be switching to Mac OSX or Windows.

The level of work in switching to linux just keeps people who get a sudden itch to try it from actually trying it unless they're pretty determined and willing to learn a lot of Jargon and read and re read a lot of things about how to install programs and so forth.

we can educate people about linux now and start stopping the myths. When people know about linux, and more people start using it, the demand will be there for things like games, etc.

one big thing that will probably help spread the use of Linux:

Repos, Probably the best thing in software installation for a LONG time. When repos evolve to the point that you can buy commercial software through them and so forth, that will help new users to get using "Linux" a lot easier... currently the best design for repos I have seen is CNR (you may hate it on principle, but the way it works is truly great) and I've heard a lot of good things about Klik but I'm not entirely certain how Klik operates.

Right now my 'big 3' for Linux distros that could do very well in the home are Suse, Ubuntu, and Linspire/Freespire. I know that everyone here hates Linspire because of any number of reasons, but they did a lot of stuff right with their distro... the installer is GREAT, the hardware detection is EXCELLENT, CNR is, in my opinion, what repos should start to look and act like. (without the subscription fees and all that other stuff that foss people hate so much)

Suse is doing a lot of good stuff with their desktop, SLED 10 is GREAT and Novell has a good track record for producing good applications (beagle, tomboy, Apparmor, XGL) but the whole need for 3rd party repos makes Suse not so good for an end user who wouldn't know how to add them.

Ubuntu is doing a lot of great stuff and is making linux a lot easier in general for everyone... installing a .deb is just as simple as a double click and gdebi will run and install it. configuring things is getting easier, and hardware detection is getting a lot better. More things are being added to meet the needs of the user, and with the rapid release cycles (every 6 months) it's a distro that adds new features very quickly.

Linspire/Freespire- This is my darkhorse candidate for the desktop. I've already said... GREAT hardware detection, excellent installer (very fast as well), CNR for amazingly easy and convenient installation of programs. some decent apps included, although it has stuff built in that is roughly the equivilant to adware. The main problems with Linspire that *I* have are that it's more than a little behind the times with it's packages, and that it's a pretty expensive distro. $4 a month for CNR membership will start to add up pretty quickly...

Peter Mount
July 25th, 2006, 06:29 AM
My philosopy is this:

Any kind of software can wreck your day. So why pay for the priviledge?

For the topic at hand I'd say:

Driver support
Market momentum, i.e. Microsoft's market share
The learning curve involved

I think Dapper is a good example of how the learning curve, at least, can be helped. There is still a lot of work to be done though.

prizrak
July 25th, 2006, 12:10 PM
The learning curve involved
That is much less of a problem lately not really because of how great Dapper or MEPIS or something like that are. According to Vista reviews the interface has been changed around quite a bit. There is also that security thing (the name is escaping me right now) that requires a user to learn some new things as well. As it stands now learning curve wise Linux is pretty close to Vista.

justicerulesok
July 25th, 2006, 12:48 PM
try telling the 'end user/home user/silver surfer' who has £500 in his/her pocket to buy a pc for their kids school work. That they can get a better deal buy going online & buying then downloading what they want.

PEOPLE GET SCARED. acronyms (sp?) the thought of progamming & the lack of a real word retail outlet.

In the UK you buy from Dixons Stores Group (PCW, Currys etc) Comet, Supermarkets. Those with more money than sence go to independants & those who've used a DEll at work end up phoning up cause the internet it scary.

Windows is for those who are scared of PC's (yes they still exist) old people, low income, poorly educated (as in never went to school).

These are the same people who would if captured as a market would be the force behind moving the world.

Every century the is a revoltion from xx80-xx20 where everything changes from one end to the other. the last one was industrial & now we're in the middle of the technological. By 2020 microsoft will be a legend, dead reminiced about but never used.

Justice.

G Morgan
July 25th, 2006, 04:06 PM
Most folks I know, when asked why they wouldn't consider linux, say "Games".

Thats just an excuse for lazyness. I play more PC games than most people but I dual boot and I'm very cautious in what I allow in Windows, most of the time the networking is disabled (so I can turn off all the endless resident scanners, a script can clear as much as 200mb of RAM instantly).

Then Linux gets used for any work, coding, internet, music etc. If I could get full hardware access in a VM I'd have got Xen running by now but it isn't properly posible yet.

prizrak
July 25th, 2006, 07:18 PM
Thats just an excuse for lazyness. I play more PC games than most people but I dual boot and I'm very cautious in what I allow in Windows, most of the time the networking is disabled (so I can turn off all the endless resident scanners, a script can clear as much as 200mb of RAM instantly).

Then Linux gets used for any work, coding, internet, music etc. If I could get full hardware access in a VM I'd have got Xen running by now but it isn't properly posible yet.

While I don't condone keeping an OS as the only one simply because of gaming, dual booting is pretty annoying. There are a few issues with it.
1) If something doesn't work in Linux (which is likely for newbies) you go back to Windows and end up putting fixing Linux off.

2) If I want to play a Windows game and I have Windows as the only OS I just pop a CD in or double click. In dual booting it's a bit more involved.

3) Default option is normally to start Windows and more than enough people turn the comp on and wander off while it's booting to make it a hassle to use Linux.

Dual booting is not really much of a solution despite people using it. If Linux is to convert the gamers it either needs to get all the major games ported to it with extremely easy installs or develop a way of installing/playing Windows games as easily as Windows does.

Having said that I would say that there is a very large percentage of computer users out there who either don't play games at all (not couting Solitaire and the like) or game on consoles as opposed to PCs. Linux doesn't have to run 100% of computers (it might not be feasible on them) but a 20-30% market share on the desktop would ensure support from enough ISV's and OEM's to not have the same issues that it does now.

G Morgan
July 25th, 2006, 07:45 PM
While I don't condone keeping an OS as the only one simply because of gaming, dual booting is pretty annoying. There are a few issues with it.
1) If something doesn't work in Linux (which is likely for newbies) you go back to Windows and end up putting fixing Linux off.

2) If I want to play a Windows game and I have Windows as the only OS I just pop a CD in or double click. In dual booting it's a bit more involved.

3) Default option is normally to start Windows and more than enough people turn the comp on and wander off while it's booting to make it a hassle to use Linux.

Dual booting is not really much of a solution despite people using it. If Linux is to convert the gamers it either needs to get all the major games ported to it with extremely easy installs or develop a way of installing/playing Windows games as easily as Windows does.

Having said that I would say that there is a very large percentage of computer users out there who either don't play games at all (not couting Solitaire and the like) or game on consoles as opposed to PCs. Linux doesn't have to run 100% of computers (it might not be feasible on them) but a 20-30% market share on the desktop would ensure support from enough ISV's and OEM's to not have the same issues that it does now.

1)Thats just a case of disipline and determination. The sort of user that would ignore Linux because of a few problems is the same sort that post the not ready for the desktop threads so aren't a loss.

2)Fair enough but I rarely just decide to play games in the middle of working and if I do there are enough native Linux games to suit that. Admittedly installing Linux games is rarely simple.

3)I have no problem with multibooting. Ubuntu is default on my machine so unless I want to play games I can wander off.

It's just a case of using the right tool for the right job and for PC Gaming that is currently Windows (though not for any technical reason). It will be interesting to see if Linux gaming takes off when Sony preinstall Linux on their PS3's.

altonbr
July 25th, 2006, 11:48 PM
For a summer job in between semesters for my College, I've picked up a job at a place called Siamous Internet. It's a town of 3000 people and everyone uses Windows 98/2000 but want to run XP on there under-developed/old hardware... I would love to suggest XUbuntu, DSL (although convoluted) or just regular Ubuntu if there computer can take it, but the reason why no one is listening to me here in Sicamous? They are a bunch of small town folk that only know of the word "Windows"... they think that the monitor is the computer and that when you open up the tower, that is Windows, when in fact it is actually the operating system.

Education is the only way to spread "linux" or Ubuntu for that matter.

prizrak
July 26th, 2006, 04:24 AM
It will be interesting to see if Linux gaming takes off when Sony preinstall Linux on their PS3's.
I doubt that, there are plenty of devices that run Linux, TiVo is probably the most well known one. Yet MythTV is not even at version 1 :)

the_blue_pill
July 26th, 2006, 08:40 PM
A couple of days ago I decided to change the impossibly boring firefox 'world' icon to the fiery red and gold one. What happened then, methinks, is a textbook example of why 'linux for the masses' still seems distant.

Right click, properties, then click the icon top left. Konq nicely brings up a list of icons and yes there's the one I'm looking for. That was easy. I click and...

Sorry. Kdesktop. You do not have sufficient access to write to /home/harun/Desktop/firefox.

Umm. What?

Now at this point I tried to imagine how people with different experience/exposure to linux would react.
Average Win user (doesn't know anything): 'Why doesn't it do what I want? Teh linux sux!'
Slightly advanced win user (knows a thing or two about user privileges): 'It's a frikkin icon. Why can't I change it? Teh linux sux!'

Novice linux user (doesn't scream when (s)he sees the command terminal): 'What the hell? It's MY desktop. MY sanctuary from the ever watchful, relentless grip of linux. It's not a system file or anything. Teh Linux sux!'
Me (tired and jaded and a novice still, but somewhat of a masochist willing to continue): Sighs and gets to work.

I do a ls -la on the desktop, and there's the desktop item.
firefox -> /usr/share/applications/firefox.desktop
It's a symlink to a root owned directory. Why, I ask? Then I remember that under the clever guise of an OS, linux is actually one giant trial for those willing to test the limits of their intelligence, patience and endurance.

Fortunately there's an 'edit as root' option in right-click -> actions menu. I click it, enter my password (why oh why I ask you) and a text box opens. Towards the end there's a single line:
icon = mozilla-firefox.png

Now even if our average or above average win user has made this far, there's no indication of how to proceed next. The icon I want could be named anything. It turns out just entering 'firefox.png' was enough. That's arguably an easy guess but if you can't, then good luck. You'll have to sift through the myriads of choices in usr/share/icons. Oh and if you happen to upgrade your firefox after this, you'll find that the icon reverts to the original 'world' version.

This obviously is an angry rant but I'm not trying to blame or flame anybody. In addition, this bug might or might not have been fixed - technically it's not a bug at all - but that's not the point I'm trying to make.

The issue is that there are virtually hundreds of such small annoyances floating around, requiring disproportionately large amounts of experience/time/energy to fix. Needless to say average computer users stay away from such a demanding system. Calling such people 'stupid, lazy luzers' doesn't help much either: some people simply prefer to invest their time in something else.

I can understand why activating and debugging advanced hardware features such as wireless and acpi could be difficult, but in this example it's a very simple feature. The problem is not one of efficient software engineering but one of presentation and usability. I request politely that people designing such interfaces polish and test basic features rather than throwing in a bunch of new ones.
/rant

Yossarian
July 26th, 2006, 08:45 PM
No, you make a good point. As far Ubuntu and other Linux-based OSs are concerned, all the right parts are there, they just don't always fit together exactly as you would expect.

prizrak
July 26th, 2006, 08:46 PM
I can make the same rant about Windows, OS X, OS/2, *BSD, AIX, HP-UX, Unix, Irix, DOS, and the list goes on. There are always small annoyances in any OS (like the fact that Vista doesn't let you delete a desktop shortcut unless you are logged in as an administrator) and none of them ever add up to an OS choice. If you (a general one) would rather be doing something else then I suspect you wouldn't be messing with icons as you wouldn't care.

win_zik
July 26th, 2006, 08:46 PM
Wow, it doesn't happen often something shouts out flamebait so loud...

Really, what a stupid post.
Yes, only root can change systemwide settings and default icons are systemwide setting and that only root can change those settings is a good thing.

Besides, the freaking kmenu editor gives you a nice graphical way to change the freaking icon as a user for a particular user and if the icon is for example a panel icon you'll just have to right click and select properties to change the fricking icon.

Brunellus
July 26th, 2006, 08:51 PM
don't be a menace to ubuntu while drinkin' ur juice n da hood.

I'm gonna let this thread run but it'll get locked if the asterisks keep coming into play.

matthew
July 26th, 2006, 09:00 PM
don't be a menace to ubuntu while drinkin' ur juice n da hood.

I'm gonna let this thread run but it'll get locked if the asterisks keep coming into play.rotfl!! You beat me to it, and with a wittier reply than mine would have been anyway.

aysiu
July 26th, 2006, 09:00 PM
You must have thought there weren't in my list (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1276564) enough threads beginning with the letter r.

kabus
July 26th, 2006, 09:03 PM
Thanks for the random rant, this forum needs more of those.

mips
July 26th, 2006, 09:04 PM
don't be a menace to ubuntu while drinkin' ur juice n da hood.

I'm gonna let this thread run but it'll get locked if the asterisks keep coming into play.

Just close it, it's the natural thing to do in these forums ;)

Biltong (Dee)
July 26th, 2006, 09:07 PM
don't be a menace to ubuntu while drinkin' ur juice n da hood

Off thread, but...huh?
I translate that to mean don't be a threat to Ubuntu whilst drunk and wearing a hat.

Okay then, gottit :p

Brunellus
July 26th, 2006, 09:13 PM
Off thread, but...huh?
I translate that to mean don't be a threat to Ubuntu whilst drunk and wearing a hat.

Okay then, gottit :p
it's a parody of "Don't Be A Menace To South Central While Drinking Your Juice I The Hood (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116126/) which itself was a parody of several gangsta movies of the early '90s (Menace 2 Society, Juice, Boyz N Da Hood)

Biltong (Dee)
July 26th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Okay, thanks for that.
I didn't understand - and that is the honest truth.
(Although I figured Hood had to be a place in New York somewhere)

Brunellus
July 26th, 2006, 09:41 PM
Okay, thanks for that.
I didn't understand - and that is the honest truth.
(Although I figured Hood had to be a place in New York somewhere)
'hood is short for "neighborhood", but usually short for "ghetto." Gotta keep it real, homes.

bvc
July 26th, 2006, 09:43 PM
why does anyone need proof that something isn't going to happen when nobody, in touch with reality, thought it was going to happen?

always follow the money :p

altonbr
July 26th, 2006, 11:42 PM
I was recently talking to a computer science graduate from the University of Calgary who is now writing backend Windows applications for Panasonic... and as I was installing Xubuntu beside him using Visual Basic 2005, I had to ask him: "Why are you programming for Windows?"... in short, his response was "Because that's where the money is."

He explained to me that most people are running Windows and even Windows backends such as Windows Server 2003, and even if they are Unix or Novell finatics, someone has Windows Server 2003 lying around to run his DBMSes.

He says that UNIX programmers had made a OS that was as good if not better then Windows XP TEN years ago ("they were light years ahead" he claims)... the only thing is, it's a marketing game, and Microsoft is winning.

Lastly, the Senior Consultant for a multi-national programming company says that we loves the Windows API and finds it extremely easy to program with.

I know Linux distros have something along these lines, but until they have a SDK that you can run on any distro, and easily program C or C++ with it, then Linux will be closer to the mainstream...

the_blue_pill
July 27th, 2006, 06:49 AM
I can make the same rant about Windows, OS X, OS/2, *BSD, AIX, HP-UX, Unix, Irix, DOS, and the list goes on. There are always small annoyances in any OS (like the fact that Vista doesn't let you delete a desktop shortcut unless you are logged in as an administrator) and none of them ever add up to an OS choice.
I'm experienced with none but windows from your list above and it just seems to me that linux has more annoyances per installation than Win Xp for example. I could be wrong, but the important thing is that in order to develop a more slick, user friendly OS you need to put up with people who are expressing their displeasure.


Wow, it doesn't happen often something shouts out flamebait so loud...

Really, what a stupid post.

Note that I don't have strong words in my post even though I've admitted it being an angry rant. Yes I have used the <gasp> three letter word for behind or rump or whatever sophisticated gentlemen call it. My sorries.

Personally I think the kneejerk response along the lines of don't-bite-the-hand-that- feeds-you is very counterproductive. Improvement depends on positive response to criticism. Zealotry can (maybe) maintain the status quo but not indefinitely.

Finally if you think the post is a flamebait don't bite it by replying to it. Thread goes into oblivion; the evil poster gets what he deserves and doesn't get what he wants. Problem solved.


Yes, only root can change systemwide settings and default icons are systemwide setting and that only root can change those settings is a good thing.

Arguable, because I'm not saying that the systemwide default icon in its share folder be replaced by a new one, but the user Desktop icon be changed.However if that's the way it should remain, just gray out the icon symbol in right-click properties. So the icon selection window does not pop up and I don't get the idea that I could change the icon. Simple n'est ce pas?


No, you make a good point. As far Ubuntu and other Linux-based OSs are concerned, all the right parts are there, they just don't always fit together exactly as you would expect.
Thanks. You're right and the remedy would be to extensively test how the parts click together and respond rationally to criticism.

aysiu
July 27th, 2006, 06:59 AM
Personally I think the kneejerk response along the lines of don't-bite-the-hand-that- feeds-you is very counterproductive. Improvement depends on positive response to criticism. Zealotry can (maybe) maintain the status quo but not indefinitely. Read this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741).


Arguable, because I'm not saying that the systemwide default icon in its share folder be replaced by a new one, but the user Desktop icon be changed. That's not typical. In fact, I've never seen that happen... except in this thread. When I right-click my personal Firefox icon, I can change it to whatever I want.

win_zik
July 27th, 2006, 08:46 AM
Personally I think the kneejerk response along the lines of don't-bite-the-hand-that- feeds-you is very counterproductive. Improvement depends on positive response to criticism. Zealotry can (maybe) maintain the status quo but not indefinitely.

Oh, this argument is really getting so old. No, I'm not against being critical, on the contrary, I agree with you, being critical and wanting to improve thins is very important.
However, I never claimed I was against criticism, I reacted to your concrete post and called it, not criticism in general, rather stupid, factually incorrect and flamebait.



Arguable, because I'm not saying that the systemwide default icon in its share folder be replaced by a new one, but the user Desktop icon be changed.However if that's the way it should remain, just gray out the icon symbol in right-click properties. So the icon selection window does not pop up and I don't get the idea that I could change the icon. Simple n'est ce pas?

As I already said in my first post, you can change the users icons. I pointed out several ways to do it and as aysiu also pointed out, changing an icon by right clicking on it never, ever was a problem for me. So if it didn't work for you, you either encountered a very rare bug, or the icon you wanted to change simply isn't a normal program launcher.

3rdalbum
July 27th, 2006, 09:51 AM
I know it might not be Windows' fault, but I had a heck of a lot of trouble getting my mother's new iPod Shuffle to work.

iTunes didn't recognise the iPod. Then I tried installing the software, which hung. Then I tried again, and it actually crashed. Then I restarted and tried a third time, and once I restarted again it actually worked.

In iTunes, I dragged MP3s to the music library, then dragged them onto the iPod icon in the left panel. iTunes copied the songs. Eventually, it said that there was no room left on the iPod, yet it pretended to copy the songs nevertheless. I "safely removed" the iPod and tried to play it. Nothing. It was like there were no songs on it. But GTKpod, AmaroK, and Rhythmbox recognised and played the songs.

Eventually I reformatted the iPod and used GTKpod from the beginning. The iPod Shuffle now works.

The moral of the story is: Sometimes, some things are difficult or awkward. Sometimes things don't work properly. This is true of every operating system. Ubuntu is the only operating system on my computer which doesn't crash if I try to browse a CD while copying folders from it.

ComplexNumber
July 27th, 2006, 02:10 PM
i remember all the hassle i had trying to locate and then work out the correct information to put in the correct microsoft windows registry keys necessary to get my old motorola phone working with p2kman. could the instructions be printed on a sheet of A4 paper? nah, more like an encyclopedia. windows is really user-friendly.....not.


the_blue_pill
i suggest that you have experienced a bug of some sorts. i can change the desktop icons effortlessly in gnome, and it doesn't require root privilages. therefore, its not specific to linux.

prizrak
July 27th, 2006, 02:39 PM
I'm experienced with none but windows from your list above and it just seems to me that linux has more annoyances per installation than Win Xp for example. I could be wrong, but the important thing is that in order to develop a more slick, user friendly OS you need to put up with people who are expressing their displeasure.
Nothing wrong with expressing displeasure, however the problem is that no OS is perfect and all have little quirks that you have to put up with. For instance I can't get Gaim (on any system I have tried it on) to remember window settings such as size. I have to use a window manipulation program called devilspie and I had to relearn how to use it in Dapper as it changed from regular config file to xml style one. In Windows I had other issues that I don't have in Linux (Ubuntu) however I need to put up with it because at my job I need to use it for things that Linux isn't very good at. Like joining a Windows Domain, which is damn simple in XP and a huge pain in Ubuntu.

Lord Illidan
July 27th, 2006, 02:45 PM
I changed my firefox icon in KDE easily enough. Did you mess up your account somehow?

G Morgan
July 27th, 2006, 05:18 PM
This does seem a strange complaint. It's a 5 second job in GNOME, I haven't tried KDE for a while but never encountered anything like this.

aysiu
July 27th, 2006, 05:29 PM
This does seem a strange complaint. It's a 5 second job in GNOME, I haven't tried KDE for a while but never encountered anything like this.
I think the OP may have screwed up permissions somehow. Maybe used sudo (as opposed to gksudo) with one too many graphical applications...?

Yossarian
July 27th, 2006, 06:03 PM
Looks like the OP messed something up. I take back my critiscm then, I should have looked into it before jumping to conclusions.

But I think we can all agree this sort of thing would not happen on Windows. j/k

EDIT: Removed edit

G Morgan
July 27th, 2006, 06:48 PM
Looks like the OP messed something up. I take back my critiscm then, I should have looked into it before jumping to conclusions.

But I think we can all agree this sort of thing would not happen on Windows. j/k

We all agree Windows has practically no user priviledges yes. Making it easy to change things is what makes Windows so insecure. If you know what your doing Linux is no more difficult but it is much more secure. Besides Vista doesn't allow you to delete shortcuts.

aysiu
July 27th, 2006, 06:52 PM
On the contrary, Windows XP and 2000 do have permissions, and they do also have a similar behavior to this, and it's not a bug. At work, we have a domain, and if I log into a computer of which I am not the administrative user (basically, every computer except my own), I cannot delete icons off my own desktop!

I thought the whole point of having separate users was that they could each customize their own desktop experience. But, no, if you don't want Adobe Reader or Internet Explorer on your desktop, tough luck. Keep in mind--these workstations are not in kiosk mode. They are just computers for which certain people don't have administrative privileges.

The OP may be just about the only Ubuntu user who cannot modify icons on her/his own computer. But it's a quite common scenario in a multi-user Windows environment.

ComplexNumber
July 27th, 2006, 07:08 PM
cannot delete icons off my own desktop! thats because a lock down application has been used on it. KDE(ie kiosk) and gnome(ie sabayon) have the same whereby it prevents users from altering the applets, icons, and the menus.

aysiu
July 27th, 2006, 07:13 PM
thats because a lock down application has been used on it. KDE(ie kiosk) and gnome(ie sabayon) have the same whereby it prevents users from altering the applets, icons, and the menus.
It's not a kiosk mode. Trust me--the tech people at my workplace are far too understaffed to implement a kiosk mode. It's the type of user--there are standard users, restricted users, and administrators.

I say any kind of user in a non-kiosk mode should be able to delete shortcuts off her desktop...

Yossarian
July 27th, 2006, 07:20 PM
Posted by aysiu
It's not a kiosk mode. Trust me--the tech people at my workplace are far too understaffed to implement a kiosk mode. It's the type of user--there are standard users, restricted users, and administrators.

I say any kind of user in a non-kiosk mode should be able to delete shortcuts off her desktop...

Here, here! The user most definitely should be able to modify their own desktop.

Where I'm working for the summer as LAN admin they've disabled the Run as option. To install we have to run the Add/Remove programs control panel tool as our admin accounts and use the add function. If anyone was ever wondering of what possible use that function is, there you go.

EDIT: Spelling

the_blue_pill
July 27th, 2006, 08:08 PM
After reading through the messages, I think the issue is specific to my system. If so I apologize for the confusion. I know I didn't place the symlink myself: the installation did. I'll try to reproduce the problem and understand what it really is.

And as a general request please take a minute or two to understand the intent of the post before firing up angry rebuttals. A flamebait is always deliberate and mostly personal. I posted the rant based on an actual experience, without twisting the facts and I didn't blame anyone in particular. Just because it makes you angry does not flamebait a post make.

Finally the original post is not the result of this isolated incident but rather the buildup from countless issues I've encountered since I installed kubuntu. Many could have been solved through more intuitional GUIs rather than changing a '1' to a '0' in some vague parameter of an obscure config file.

While searching, I encountered a similar rant today and the author expresses my original point much better than I could. The issue is not whether or not the software is buggy, but rather how well it interacts with the user.

http://catb.org/esr/writings/cups-horror.html

The more upbeat summary of my long ramble is this - there's little opportunity to change the perception of linux by the masses in the area of hardware compatibility or out-of-the-box codec functionality for example (due to economic/legal issues), but there is a significant opportunity to improve user friendliness and make it a much more attractive OS than it currently is.

Peace, blue_pill out

mips
July 27th, 2006, 08:16 PM
Here, here! ...

Hear, hear ;)

win_zik
July 27th, 2006, 08:16 PM
While searching, I encountered a similar rant today and the author expresses my original point much better than I could. The issue is not whether or not the software is buggy, but rather how well it interacts with the user.

http://catb.org/esr/writings/cups-horror.html



Sigh, now he's even draggin poor old Aunt Tillie into this.
This rant by ESR is several years old and not even remotely similar to your post.

And would you please stop acting as if anybody claimed there were no usabilty issues or that usability couldn't improve?

Lord Illidan
July 27th, 2006, 08:19 PM
I agree with you 100% on the subject of your last post. My current issue is with Samba print sharing, which somehow has failed to work everytime for me. I don't mind delving into config files but I cannot see a newbie doing it any day.


Most newbies would need either this forum or a local linux geek to help them off. And a lot of patience. We still have a lot to go.

prizrak
July 27th, 2006, 09:14 PM
aysiu,
Not too sure if that's the actual issue you are having. I was having the same about 5 minutes ago with not being able to install anything on my machine if I was in the domain account as opposed to local admin. What I did to remedy that issue was to add the domain user to the administrators group in user settings. For that you need to log in as a local admin.

aysiu
July 27th, 2006, 09:15 PM
prizrak, you're addressing me but quoting G Morgan...?

prizrak
July 27th, 2006, 09:16 PM
prizrak, you're addressing me but quoting G Morgan...?

JUST edited as you were typing it :)

aysiu
July 27th, 2006, 09:17 PM
I understand if you can't install applications as a limited user, but your desktop experience (I repeat--I was not in kiosk mode) should be customizable nevertheless--changing wallpaper, modifying icons, etc.

prizrak
July 27th, 2006, 09:21 PM
I understand if you can't install applications as a limited user, but your desktop experience (I repeat--I was not in kiosk mode) should be customizable nevertheless--changing wallpaper, modifying icons, etc.

I understand where you are comming from, and that is actually a bit weird. I ran as a limited user locally in Windows before and now on a domain. However it did allow me to change just about everything about the look & feel and if I add the domain user to the admin group it allows me full control of my local workstation. No control over the domain of course but that is to be expected.

Xzallion
July 27th, 2006, 09:56 PM
From my experience...
Windows XP Home edition doesn't support permissions very well. Your either the Administrator or a limited user.

Windows XP Pro edition does support permissions somewhat decently if someone bothers to properly set it up.

Ubuntu and any linux distro supports permissions very well (I can generally guess what I can do as a user and what I need higher permissions for).

Aysiu's post about not being able to delete icons on the desktop made me think of this. They have a similiar set up at my college.

aysiu
July 27th, 2006, 10:00 PM
I understand where you are comming from, and that is actually a bit weird. I ran as a limited user locally in Windows before and now on a domain. However it did allow me to change just about everything about the look & feel and if I add the domain user to the admin group it allows me full control of my local workstation. No control over the domain of course but that is to be expected.
Likewise, not being able to change the icon of your Firefox desktop icon is also a little bit weird. My point is simply that just because you can't do something or found a quirk somewhere that frustrates you, it doesn't mean you have to declare that something is "proof" that yada yada yada (fill in the blank).

kopinux
July 28th, 2006, 01:35 AM
if not linux, the opensource family will.

slowly opensource software is creeping to windows domain.
and another oss project is going well, the reactOS (http://reactos.org).
more or like an opensource windows.
still in alpha though.