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picpak
June 29th, 2006, 06:00 PM
I can see what you mean. When I first tried Suse 9.1 I was going insane trying to get Gaim working. I had to download all the libraries needed, install them one by one, download all the libraries the libraries needed, install them one by one... (this, folks, is where apt-get comes in). Not to mention how hard it was to get my sound card working.

I'd say a new user should try Mepis or Mandriva. Mepis is like Kubuntu on steroids and Mandriva, the last time I checked (10.1), is near perfect (the only trouble I had was trying to find D:, what a n00b I was :roll:)

EdThaSlayer
June 29th, 2006, 07:51 PM
Some of the things they could have made easier...but iam not talking about multimedia...iam talking about things such as...webcam and wireless...
but...over time that will improve...the main goal of Ubuntu Linux is stability...and if you ask me thats the biggest criteria it beats Microsoft in!

Cryptopsy
June 29th, 2006, 09:12 PM
Yes, I agree....Ubuntu was very stable, and it ran very fast on my notebook.

I might try it out again in a year or two if I still have a PC. Or by then I might be Running apple hardware and OS, so who knows. heh heh.

aysiu
June 29th, 2006, 09:47 PM
To the OP: it seems more than half of your problems would have been solved by buying a Ubuntu-preloaded computer (http://www.system76.com) instead of a Windows-preloaded one.

Xzallion
June 29th, 2006, 09:54 PM
Even if you have apple hardware in the future, linux will run on that, so you could still give it a whirl then if you felt like it.

Coming to Linux from a long time windows use is like learning a new language, you just don't get it for awhile, and eventually it clicks and everything becomes alot easier. I hope you give it a try again in the future, and when you do, I still recommend a dual boot setup to get used to it. Just my two cents though.

Jasper Houtman
June 29th, 2006, 09:59 PM
Yes, I agree....Ubuntu was very stable, and it ran very fast on my notebook.

I might try it out again in a year or two if I still have a PC. Or by then I might be Running apple hardware and OS, so who knows. heh heh.

Maybe just wait till Edgy is released, a lot of the problems you had (if not all). will probably be solved in that version.

gingermark
June 29th, 2006, 11:45 PM
When I did a fresh install of Windows (both 2000 & XP) I'd then have to "set it up". I'd have to go searching for drivers, download the software I wanted that wasn't already included (winamp, open office, opera, vlc, etc, not to mention the anti-virus and firewall software I needed). I would also have to turn off all the annoying aspects of a fresh Windows install (ie all the views and pop-up bubbles aimed at idiots, such as hiding file extentions - what's that all about?).

When I install (K)ubuntu I need to grab multimedia codecs, maybe the nvidia-glx package, and maybe a few other programs I want from the repsoitories. I know which one I think is easier, and far less hassle.

It takes time to set up a system how you like it, and that will take even longer if all you've known is Windows for 10 years.

fabertawe
June 30th, 2006, 01:37 PM
I've been using Ubuntu for about a week now (first time Linux user) and I've installed the default 1.4 Java and Sun Java 5.0. It works too ;)

Automatix and EasyUbuntu links were posted at the start of this thread. I may have installed Sun Java 5.0 from one of the many very helpful threads on these forums though, try a search.

bwayman
June 30th, 2006, 09:43 PM
I have been thinking of installing linux for years now. So last past week. I dual booted ubuntu 6.06. I think it is a great os. But, the major flaw is the lack of wireless compatibility and not having WPA which is now standard.

I hope soon, they will have a patch for these problems. Other wise it seem like a very good OS. But for now, Ubuntu is just a good hobbyist OS.

jarland
June 30th, 2006, 09:47 PM
True that category could use some work. But in it's defense, you can really get any wireless card to work as far as I know if you're willing to devote a little time to getting it to work.

bwayman
June 30th, 2006, 09:53 PM
That is why, I stated it is a good hobbyist OS. But, at today's standards, this should not be a issue.

3rdalbum
July 1st, 2006, 05:31 PM
If Windows XP is what you're used to, anything else will feel foreign and alien to you.

I've been brought up with Mac OS. Ubuntu didn't feel too bad. Then I bought a PC (which had Windows preloaded) and my god, Windows was horrible! I think I've tamed it to the point where it doesn't annoy me quite so much, but it took a long time to get it working in a way that didn't frustrate me.

Ubuntu, on the other hand, "just worked" on this computer. Getting codecs to work did not require the command-line (I didn't use Automatix and co either). The only niggle was the video - Ubuntu autodetected my video card incorrectly (well, really, it detected it correctly but the open-source driver it chose was buggy and didn't work). I just set it up to use the Vesa driver until I got the proprietry ATI driver (one command at the command line and a GUI config tool to set it up).

My video capture box doesn't work and won't work, but that's one of the reasons why I set up a dual-boot. I advise new users to do the same! Or at least test your computer properly with the Live CD, I did on my old Mac.

If you have an Ubuntu Live CD, keep it. If your Windows ever fails to start up, Ubuntu Live is a great tool for accessing and backing up your data. I know, I just used it for that purpose :-)

3rdalbum
July 1st, 2006, 06:37 PM
Well, really, you could say the same thing about Macs. Some wireless cards don't work on Macs, therefore it's only a "hobbyist-OS".

I'm not having a go at you; I'm just asking you whether wireless is the be-all-and-end-all.

aysiu
July 1st, 2006, 06:43 PM
bwayman, have you tried installing Windows XP on a Ubuntu preloaded computer (http://www.system76.com)? If you do, you may soon find out that every operating system you install from scratch is a hobbyist OS.

Bye. Happy trails with your preinstalled Windows.

bwayman
July 1st, 2006, 07:15 PM
Well, I did get the Wi-Fi and WPA to work. The answer was in front of me all the long.
As, to ubuntu 6.06. I still stand by my original post about "Ubuntu is just a good hobbyist OS."

aysiu
July 1st, 2006, 07:19 PM
Well, I did get the Wi-Fi and WPA to work. The answer was in front of me all the long.
As, to ubuntu 6.06. I still stand by my original post.
And I'll stand by mine.

raptros-v76
July 1st, 2006, 07:23 PM
id take hobbyist over non-functional. i got rid of windows months ago. anyway, even if ubuntu is only hobbyist, there are linux distros which totally bamf on windows, from a proffesional standpoint.

John.Michael.Kane
July 1st, 2006, 07:26 PM
aysiu these kinda of threads have been talked to death. know one will change the OP's feelings. it seems that cause of one issuse ubuntu,and linux for that matter is called a hobbyist OS. though all OS'es/Programs have their issues/problems ect..


sidenote: to the OP instead of bashing an OS for one or two problems your having why not try 1)Asking for help 2) trying another linux/distro.

teet
July 2nd, 2006, 12:11 AM
It all just depends on what card you have. My cheap ($5) netgear wireless card in my laptop works "out-of-the-box" in Dapper now. I had to install drivers to get the card to work in XP.

For me, Ubuntu was actually a "hobbyist OS" for about a year. Then I realized that I had gotten pretty much everything up and working with Ubuntu so I made the jump.

-teet

bruce89
July 2nd, 2006, 12:22 AM
Bye. Happy trails with your preinstalled Windows.
I think you are being a bit rash here.

Wireless cards aren't well supported because the hardware manufacturers can't be bothered to release GPL drivers for Linux. It is not our fault. Moan at the manufacturers.

yosoyviejo
July 2nd, 2006, 01:19 AM
I have been thinking of installing linux for years now. So last past week. I dual booted ubuntu 6.06. I think it is a great os. But, the major flaw is the lack of wireless compatibility and not having WPA which is now standard.

I hope soon, they will have a patch for these problems. Other wise it seem like a very good OS. But for now, Ubuntu is just a good hobbyist OS.

If lack of support for a specific piece of hardware makes an Operating System a "hobbyist OS", every operating system on the planet is a "hobbyist OS". Or simply, it takes some time and experience to be able to judge a whole operating system. ;)

fuscia
July 2nd, 2006, 01:28 AM
which hobby gives more hours of pleasure? one day of configuring wireless, or the ongoing joys of running virus scans and spyware detectors and updates and all that fun stuff? no question in my mind, windows has linux beat to hell when it comes to hobbies.

aysiu
July 2nd, 2006, 03:33 AM
I think you are being a bit rash here.

Wireless cards aren't well supported because the hardware manufacturers can't be bothered to release GPL drivers for Linux. It is not our fault. Moan at the manufacturers.
Why is that rash? It's fair comparison:

Install Windows on a Ubuntu-preloaded laptop.
Install Ubuntu on a Windows-preloaded laptop.

People complain about the second not working "out of the box" but rarely try the first.

jarland
July 2nd, 2006, 03:45 AM
Simple fact, Windows works better out of the box than any other operating system. It can be argued to death, but it will still be true. Is it because of Microsoft? No. It is because that's just where the chips landed, and the manufacturers continue to make things primarily for Windows because it is the most popular.
Is Windows better in the technical sense? No it is not. But it is the one that all the major manufacturers focus primarily on, and that is why it is the most compatible OS.
Microsoft is not to blame, the software & hardware manufactures are not to blame. It's simply the way it is. And the only way for it to change is for us to convert enough users to linux so that the manufacturers have to acknowledge it. It's up to us if we want it to be #1. But quite frankly, people don't care, because Windows works for them...and that's all fine. Because the person who types something in Word once or twice a day & prints it really doesn't need anything more.

fuscia
July 2nd, 2006, 04:05 AM
i've only owned two computers, one was a desktop with windows ME and the other is my laptop that came with dapper installed. both worked out of the box.

teet
July 2nd, 2006, 04:10 AM
Simple fact, Windows works better out of the box than any other operating system.

Do you have any data to support this claim? It seems like this statement is probably true, but I have great success with Ubuntu recognizing pretty much everything "out of the box" lately. Maybe all my stuff is at that perfect age where developers have had the time to write drivers for it, but not so old that it is obsolete.

-teet

aysiu
July 2nd, 2006, 04:13 AM
I think jarland simply means that Windows comes preloaded on the majority of computers.

Everyone knows (or should know) that a preloaded computer almost always works out of the box. After all, Mac OS X has very little hardware support, but it supports what it's supposed to support--Apple computers.

Likewise, as Fuscia can attest, a Ubuntu preloaded System76 computer works out of the box, too.

The fact that Ubuntu can support many Windows preloaded computers as well is just an added bonus.

jarland
July 2nd, 2006, 04:30 AM
Do you have any data to support this claim? It seems like this statement is probably true, but I have great success with Ubuntu recognizing pretty much everything "out of the box" lately. Maybe all my stuff is at that perfect age where developers have had the time to write drivers for it, but not so old that it is obsolete.

-teet
Basically my meaning is that regardless of what software or hardware I walk in to Walmart & buy, as long as my hardware is new enough to run it, or the software/hardware is not defective, I know it will work with Windows with very minimum setup procedures. This is not to say I don't prefer Ubuntu over Windows. But for someone who doesn't like dealing with the issues most of us deal with to make Ubuntu work how we want it to, Windows (or in some cases OSX) is really the only choice for the average person. And it's not the fault of anyone but the consumers. The consumers buy what is put in front of them & made most available, and that's why Windows is #1. It's not #1 in any category but compatability & ease of use for the average consumer.

K.Mandla
July 2nd, 2006, 05:25 AM
But for now, Ubuntu is just a good hobbyist OS.
Don't tell my mom (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=156175).

kop316
July 2nd, 2006, 05:35 AM
On any given day, I would rather install Ubuntu then Windows.

For me to have the same functionallity, Windows took me 10 hours (and God knows how many restarts) to install, and Ubuntu took 1 1/2 hours (and 1 restart), which includes me downloading a lot of debian packages one at a time to compile the latest Gnomad2 for my MTP mp3 player.

egon spengler
July 2nd, 2006, 11:20 AM
Simple fact, Windows works better out of the box than any other operating system. It can be argued to death, but it will still be true. Is it because of Microsoft? No. It is because that's just where the chips landed, and the manufacturers continue to make things primarily for Windows because it is the most popular.
Is Windows better in the technical sense? No it is not. But it is the one that all the major manufacturers focus primarily on, and that is why it is the most compatible OS.
Microsoft is not to blame, the software & hardware manufactures are not to blame. It's simply the way it is.

Give credit where it is due, to a very large degree MS is responsible for this state of affairs. Now of course the ethical dimension of how they achieved this position of near monopoly is something else but they undoubtedly played a large role to put themselves in this position

kornelix
July 3rd, 2006, 10:22 AM
http://www.heise.de/ct/06/14/003/

The respected German computer magazine, c't, published an editorial about Linux in its issue of 26.06.2006. The link above is to the original German text, signed by Thorsten Leemhuis. Below is an English translation for the readers of this forum. The editorial, IMHO, hits the nail on the head about what is wrong with Linux, including Ubuntu. The proposed solution must be a joke. Food for thought.

Pulling Together

There are 462 active Linux distributions listed on Distrowatch.com, and hundreds of others not listed. Competition is vital to business, and doubtlessly "code Darwinism" is a meaningful component of open source development. But behind every distribution there are dozens of clever minds that waste uncountable hours to reinvent the wheel.

In principle, these investments in "SmithNux" and "JonesNux" could flow back into the other distributions. This is after all a main advantage of open source. But many new developments go as silently into oblivion as your first "hello world" program.

Even veteran Linux users ask if this must be so. Is Linux so good that it can afford to waste so much manpower? Are the distribution geeks lacking a strong leader? One that determines standards and configuration tools for all? Then Linux users could change from one distribution to another without having to deal with different individual characteristics - which today defeat even long-serving Penguin apostles.

This works for the kernel: here the developers have agreed to give Linus veto rights. Dissenters establish at most variants for special interests. The general community pulls together in one direction.

No such leader is in sight - IBM does not want the job, Apple is riding a different horse, Red Hat and Novell are too small, Ubuntu lives off its billionaire, and Debian has become a debating club. It is good that Microsoft already has a market leading operating system. Otherwise the monopolist would only have to buy the biggest Linux distributor, and within a year overhaul the kernel to have a stable device-driver API.

Then Redmond would only need to market it under a slick new name. Soon little would remain from the open-source idealism and the former Linux distributions - but it would be the long desired breakthrough for the free operating system.

================================================== ===================

Interpretation: it would be better to have a strongly standardized system, even one from the Evil Empire, rather than the present chaos.

Rhapsody
July 3rd, 2006, 10:57 AM
I'm not sure if the scenario of Microsoft buying out a popular Linux distro is even plausible. Aside from the fact that those behind many Linux distros would rather dissolve the project than let Microsoft take the reins, Microsoft seems to have a serious beef with the GNU General Public License, which may lead them on an attempt to destroy it rather than take advantage of it if the opportunity arose.

oskie
July 3rd, 2006, 11:34 AM
I agree with the article. IMOHO Linux and FOSS need spokespersons, greater convergence in terms of software development and a marketing campaign aimed at promoting its technological and financial merits.This can be done without sacrificing the independence and freedom which give Open Source its strengths.

hizaguchi
July 3rd, 2006, 04:12 PM
I like the decentralization of Gnu/Linux. Sure, if one entity were to control the development, the progress might be more efficient and we may have overtaken Microsoft's market share a long time ago and have a much more widely supported and powerful operating system to show for it, but I that all that matters? Surely not.

Fragmentation is not a by-product of freedom, it is a prerequisite to freedom. You can't just take a huge, diverse group of people, cram them all under a central leadership that has the final say in decision making and goal setting, and expect them to be happy because it is for the greater good of the movement. If you could, then the world wouldn't need thousands of governments. After all, it would be more efficient to unify the planet as one nation, and it would bring about world peace too! So why don't we ask China to annex us?

Oh, that's right, because idealism suddenly becomes more important than pragmatism when it is your idealism that's at stake. And the ability to defend your idealism is what truly makes you free.

kornelix
July 3rd, 2006, 08:28 PM
Remember that I was only being the messenger, providing a translation of the c't editorial. Their web pages allow feedback. It does not have to be in German.

Speaking for myself, I will add the following:

You have emphasized the importance of freedom. I think this underlies the issue of chaos that the c't editor was talking about. I think that many of the techno-geeks that work on Linux value freedom and personal creativity more than utility, especially the utility of their "customers", the end users of Linux. The result is chaos, and lots of freedom to make chaos. It is their choice. It is also the choice of the marketplace to shun Linux in favor of an (inferior) system that is standardized and therefore easier to use and support. Consider what a software developer must put up with if he/she wants to create software that runs on most distributions of Linux, and support that software running in these many different environments (GUI systems, libraries, tools and utilities, locations of directories and configuration files, package management systems, security systems, etc.).

The current chaotic environment is not surprising, considering that the main developers of Linux software are not working in a competitive for-profit environment where customers have to be made happy. In effect, they are working for themselves, being free and creative and expressing their technical prowess. To be fair, this is not always the case. Some developers are very conscious of their customers, even if they are not being paid by them. But these are too few, IMHO. Developers paid by a generous billionaire also need not be too concerned about standardization and end users. Ubuntu is no paragon of standardization. In moving from Fedora, I stumbled over directory differences (for user files and system libraries) and the lack of a root account (which I reinstated). Yesterday I tried to get AisleRiot solitaire working again (it recently stopped working, because of a recent GTK update(?)). I tried to move a working version from Fedora to Ubuntu. No deal, crash.

The Linux kernel is the only part of Linux that is standardized. I wonder if its developers are upset at their loss of freedom? I doubt this. Being creative while being constrained by standards and a controlled roadmap is more difficult, but necessary.

There should be a Linux standards body. It should be small and decisive, like Linus with the kernel. The first task would be to pick Gnome or KDE and not let the loser use the name "Linux". Then, if the losing developers have any sense of responsibility, the manpower for further development of GUIs would be amplified instead of split into dueling factions.

Sorry for being so long-winded. My emotions got the best of me.

deadgobby
July 3rd, 2006, 08:42 PM
Oracle is a big biz looking into Linux.
http://news.com.com/Oracle+looking+to+Linux/2100-7344_3-5825433.html

aysiu
July 3rd, 2006, 08:47 PM
This is a very simplistic vision of the Linux landscape. There are actually several projects (Portland Project, Linux Standards Base, The DCC) that are working to share ideas and get a common ground between Linux distros.

That said, there will always be fragmentation--such is the nature of an open source license.

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/unifiedlinux

kornelix
July 3rd, 2006, 08:58 PM
Some business apps like Oracle have been ported to Linux and are supported. However, only one distribution is typically tested and certified for official support. Testing 400 distributions is obviously not an option.

nuvo
July 3rd, 2006, 09:37 PM
I don't think all Linux distro developers should come together and work on one distro as that would probably damage the Linux community more than improve it.
If everyone came together, there'd be the issues over wether KDE should be the default desktop or Gnome, if it should use RPM's, DEB's or sources and so on.
What would benefit Linux users would be if like minded developers came together rather than creating a mass of projects that aim to do pretty much the same thing, in pretty much the same way.
If this happened, there'd be more developers working on less distro's, meaning more work could be done and possibly more features could be built.

In a way, it's a good thing that developers are basing their distrobutions off of more mature distro's such as Debian as it means that much of the base is implemented already, so developers can work on adding to it, fixing bugs and so on.
There's also the benefits to both the origional distro and the new distro in that the new developers can help the distro they based theirs on with fixes and any fixes in the base distro can be implemented in their distro.

If anyone were to try and unify Linux into a more streamlined system that could take on Microsoft, I'd hope it'd be Google.

Tortanick
July 3rd, 2006, 09:58 PM
I'd hope not, then software companies would target goolinux exclusively. If they had to target even two diffrent distros, one RPM and one Deb based, that would make it much more likely that any distro could install the software easily without having to copy the isms of one perticular distro.

As for chaos vs unification:

chaos:
Specilised distros
That perfect distro for your tastes
Survival of the fittest, no one can just rest on lurals like M$
etc etc

Iandefor
July 4th, 2006, 12:41 AM
So basically, my question is.... how do you guys do it? How do you use Ubuntu on a day-to-day basis and not freak out all the time? I just dont see the advantage of switching to Linux just yet other then the security of it. I handle it right. I know where to look when something's gone funny.
I know where to go when X misconfigures my widescreen right after install, and I know why it misconfigures it. I know that if I want Totem to play DVD's, I just have to install totem-xine.

It all comes down to personal preference- in the end, I have ultimate control over my computing experience. If I don't like something, I can get it changed. If something breaks, I can fix it. If you'd rather have something that has wide hardware support out of the box, but at the expense of having malware to deal with, well, perhaps XP is what you need. I encourage you to try a dual-boot setup.

az
July 4th, 2006, 01:57 AM
The point is you can get just about everything (within reason - not talking about red hat 6.0 software) to work together at the source level.

People miss that point. It is a major strenght of FLOSS. You can't get any closer to pleasing the market when it's the market itself that decides what everything is. In the case of FLOSS, the movers and shakers are a by-and-large the users.

You use FLOSS for business because the ability to make it do what you need it to do brings you value.

This is what "not being locked in" looks like.


"it would be better to have a strongly standardized system, even one from the Evil Empire, rather than the present chaos."

Since when is this not standardized? When was the time a major bit of the infrastructure forked? (Xorg?) It's bloody rare. And it usually only happens for a good reason. This is not chaos.

Ubuntuud
July 4th, 2006, 10:57 AM
This is a very simplistic vision of the Linux landscape. There are actually several projects (Portland Project, Linux Standards Base, The DCC) that are working to share ideas and get a common ground between Linux distros.

That said, there will always be fragmentation--such is the nature of an open source license.

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/unifiedlinux

There it is again, multiple projects working on the same thing :)

aysiu
July 4th, 2006, 11:01 AM
There it is again, multiple projects working on the same thing :)
Actually, no.

It seems the Portland Project is created with the goal of being included in the Linux Standards Base:
The Portland Project is an initiative taken to establish a greater Linux foothold in the desktop market. It aims at resolving a number of key factors that are believed to reduce the adoption rate of Linux distributions as desktop operating systems. While the Tango Desktop Project was started to give users a more unified graphical experience, the Portland Project is intended to ease the porting of desktop applications to Linux for independent software vendors (ISVs). The project goal is to let software developers worry less about the desktop environment a distribution is using, and thus bring it on more common ground with e.g. Microsoft Windows and Mac OS X in this particular area.

The project has Alex Graveley (GNOME) and George Staikos (KDE) as two of the task force leaders, who will look to gain feedback from ISVs, integration possibilities, and possibly create a draft implementation as well.

A goal for the Portland Project is to have it be included in Linux Standard Base 4.0, due in late 2006. And the DCC isn't doing "the same thing" at all, since it's specifically for Debian:
The DCC Alliance is an association of organizations and individuals to assemble a common, standards-based core for Debian-based Linux distributions and accelerate worldwide commercial adoption of Debian GNU/Linux. While the DCC Alliance is an independent organization, we work closely with the Debian community in implementing common standards and enterprise features.

jethro10
July 4th, 2006, 11:19 AM
[URL="http://www.heise.de/ct/06/14/003/"]

Even veteran Linux users ask if this must be so. Is Linux so good that it can afford to waste so much manpower?


This is the total crux of the state of linux. Every one blabs on about choice in the myriads of distributions but to the Windows user, linux is linux, and the choice is windows v's linux. Any new User I have shown Ubuntu to says "its fascinating that this can happen but its clunkier than windows".

Divided we stand !
If every one got together and wrote one or two CD burners, KDE and Gnome got together, etc. Windows is big enough to have 20 CD burners, linux isn't.

Pull together and linux may stand a chance.
I prefere KDE but everyone seems to be going Gnome. To me thats still great as it will attract more developers ultimatley
And thats as it should be. for the 'core' of linux, meaning Gnome, OOo, a few CD burners, only one or 2 mail clients etc and the more developers will make them better. Combine resources
J

aysiu
July 4th, 2006, 05:36 PM
It was actually divided resources, not combined resources that got Gnome and KDE to where they are today:
http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/KDE_v_Gnome_history

First of all, I think you're missing something--people are, as I mentioned before--already trying to combine efforts.

That said, more on one project does not a more efficient project make.

I've worked with one or two people on projects (these were not software projects, granted, but the same principle applies), and I've worked with fifteen people on projects, and if anything I've found, it's that getting fifteen people (let alone 100) to agree on what direction to head or where to use their energy wastes a lot more energy than having them all do their own thing and compare notes.

Miguel
July 4th, 2006, 05:42 PM
Jethro, I beg to disagree. If you like KDE, go on and use KDE. You might not have the technical skills, but there are a large number of programmers in KDE, so you can count on future improvement. Also, even if you are not a programmer, you can help with bug reports, constructive criticism, language translations, beta testing, etc.

Do I prefer Gnome? Yes, but that shouldn't drive you to use other things. You might have an older computer that struggles to run KDE. Why not run XFce or IceWM or whatever then? Does division keep all projects from advancing faster? Yes, but it also helps reaching out unimagined places. Someone mentioned survival. This is like it. The more "fit" programs get more developers, but freedom of choice assures other developers pursue other goals that might go further than we see now.

Should there be standards? For sure. The Linux Standard Base is starting to grow in importance. This allows for binary things to interoperate, having a definite folder structure and behaviour (like ANSI C). Then we have freedesktop, which attempts to get the more important conceps consistent in all important DE's: Gnome, XFce and KDE. Consistant behaviour, but not identical. Every project has it's goal.

As a final note, I'd like to mention that most people here underestimate the power of the GNU tools. These have also been more or less "driven" one way only, but because there was a need to have compatible tools.

BTW: Most people in the world use Newtonian Mechanics. Should I use classical mechanics to describe and predict the behaviour of the high pressure phases I study? No way!. Newton's laws are shown to be wrong. We know it for sure. Newton's laws don't work (in general). On the other hand, it would be silly to design an RF antenna using quantum electrodynamics calculations, even if they are able to predict numbers up to the 11th figure (mind you, it doesn't get any more accurate than that). I see linux in a similar light to this. Different people, different needs, different tools.

See you

aysiu
July 4th, 2006, 05:52 PM
Would we have better cars if all car manufacturers worked on one car? Would we have better pizza if every chef in the world worked on one pizza recipe? Would we have a better book if all authors worked on one book?

This whole idea of unified Linux or a unified desktop environment is crazy. Seriously.

Standards--sure, those are a good idea. Everything should have standards. Everyone should work on compatibility. But to say they are wasting their efforts by working on different projects doesn't translate to almost everything else in life--music, politics, airlines, video games, banks...

enyaw
July 4th, 2006, 06:25 PM
Ubuntu lives off its billionaire

Such a remark as this post makes is uncalled for, and such a remark should raise the hackels on every Ubuntarian. Unbuntu lives because it's the best.

Additionally: Linux is an adventure.

Also, I don't want computing in a can.

aysiu
July 4th, 2006, 06:32 PM
Ubuntu lives off its billionaire

Such a remark as this post makes is uncalled for, and such a remark should raise the hackels on every Ubuntarian. Unbuntu lives because it's the best.

Additionally: Linux is an adventure.

Also, I don't want computing in a can.
I'd have to disagree. From a strictly financial standpoint, Ubuntu would not and could not exist without the generosity and vision of Mark Shuttleworth.

Eventually it may become an economically sustainable business model through business enterprise and support, but right now I believe (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) Ubuntu is operating at a net loss.

Also, from a software standpoint, I don't know if Ubuntu is "the best." I've used other Linux distributions that have more graphical frontends for things, proprietary codecs installed by default (most end-users, not Linux idealists, consider this a good thing), and more stability in the installer.

But Ubuntu does have a lot of things going for it:

1. It may not be the best now but it's progressing at a rate that seems to make it a good candidate for being the best within a year.

2. Its support is the best--in the form of these forums.

3. It's completely free--no enterprise edition, no subscription or club, no nominal fee.

4. It gets a lot of press and is the top hit at DistroWatch.

5. It ships CDs for free--including postage.

enyaw
July 4th, 2006, 06:48 PM
I'd have to disagree. From a strictly financial standpoint, Ubuntu would not and could not exist without the generosity and vision of Mark Shuttleworth.

Eventually it may become an economically sustainable business model through business enterprise and support, but right now I believe (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) Ubuntu is operating at a net loss.

Also, from a software standpoint, I don't know if Ubuntu is "the best." I've used other Linux distributions that have more graphical frontends for things, proprietary codecs installed by default (most end-users, not Linux idealists, consider this a good thing), and more stability in the installer.

But Ubuntu does have a lot of things going for it:

1. It may not be the best now but it's progressing at a rate that seems to make it a good candidate for being the best within a year.

2. Its support is the best--in the form of these forums.

3. It's completely free--no enterprise edition, no subscription or club, no nominal fee.

4. It gets a lot of press and is the top hit at DistroWatch.

5. It ships CDs for free--including postage.

aysiu...Of course you are correct. However, I would had preferred the OP to use a more respectful or tactful way to express such throughts where Ubuntu is concerned.

aysiu
July 4th, 2006, 06:51 PM
aysiu...Of course you are correct. However, I would had preferred the OP to use a more respectful or tactful way to express such throughts when refering to Ubuntu.
Ah, good point. You were critiquing the mode of expression, not the facts themselves. I guess I made a big deal out of nothing.

richbarna
July 5th, 2006, 12:24 AM
Just a couple of comparisons:
I too used windows for years, I have also installed it 100's of times, and still, to this very day I am doing it for people.

Codecs, windows does not come with .mov, rm, xvid, DivX codecs (see klite mega codec pack).

Msn messenger is a box that you type words into and chat. So is amsn, mine does what it's supposed to do on Ubuntu.

I wouldn't change an operating system because a $5 webcam can't show me a small, low res, slow moving image of the other person on messenger.(which is what happens on windows).Maybe it's very important for some people, I can live without it.

I now use Gaim to connect to msn, I don't use fluffy icons, psychadelic letters, emoticons and whatever else my windows using friends are getting so excited about these days. I type a message and click enter.

For my sister in law to use her webcam with messenger, I had to open ports on her router,(oh by the way, her webcam comes with proprietry drivers supplied on a CD, which are not however, available to the open source community) So in Linux, there are thousands of dedicated programmers sweating for hours free of charge trying to create drivers for $5 dollar webcams so that people can see slow moving fuzzy images over the internet.

While checking the system I found 2 trojans that had bypassed the firewall and antivirus and various spyware. I also defragged, did a reg-clean, and updated the antivirus. I used spybot S&D to get rid of the spyware, then I deleted the last system restore and created another. I downloaded the latest security patches from Microsoft (7Mb), because apparently seven year old kids and are having no problem exploiting Internet Explorer and Outlook.

I will do without flashy lights, fuzzy images and sexy fonts for the sake of security.

Thank God for Ubuntu

Amen

udha
July 5th, 2006, 10:32 AM
Please forgive me and allow me to vent for a second.

I have been a windows user for about 10 years. A few days ago I decided to switch to Ubuntu because of all the rave reviews it gets.

So basically, my question is.... how do you guys do it? How do you use Ubuntu on a day-to-day basis and not freak out all the time? I just dont see the advantage of switching to Linux just yet other then the security of it.


My reasons will probably not suit you, or many for that matter, I started with windows 95 when in grade 8, my mum knew how to change the background before I did back then, I knew nothing! But I persisted, in grade 9 I was given a 386 while in boarding school, by grade 10 I had built my first computer, and only started using linux after highschool. Back in those days I'd do alot from dos, and loved the command line in linux, put simply, if there was no CLI in linux I would never have bothered with it, I use it every day and do things I just CANNOT do in windows, I don't have the troubles you have, my laptop power and resume functions work, my wireless works, my video and codecs work.

Simply put, when I'm in windows, I find it hard thinking down to it's level, because it just cannot do what I want it to do.

hitzero2003
July 5th, 2006, 03:42 PM
i wnat to get ubunto but i dont how to do it by mail cause i live in Cuba and i want to receive the free Cd with the ubunto distribution

jethro10
July 5th, 2006, 04:30 PM
Wow this is fun.

where would we be if linux was perfect and ruled the world.

We would have nothing to chat about...

J

Adamant1988
July 5th, 2006, 04:32 PM
I think that ubuntu almost perfectly meets the needs of the business world, the server world, and the education world.

But I don't think that ubuntu meets the needs of the home user, at least not legally. I presented that arguement in the ubuntu marketing channel and I was met with the opinion that all home users do is use email and surf the net. So I took a basic "show of hands" amongst my friends parents.

two of them rated their 'skill' with a computer to be average and they used the built in DVD player to watch movies, they played games, and they did the other basic 6 things. The other 6, however, rated themselves as 'not good' with computers and did almost the exact same things.

My mother, whom I excluded from the 'survey', fits the 'home user' ideal of only email and surfing, except for the X factor: her 5 year old child who likes to play games and watch movies on the computer. I can't recommend Ubuntu to them simply because it would be illegal for them to have the functionality they want, and that saddens me. I hope that in the near future legal dvd playback can come built in or easily available to an Ubuntu home user.

another thing that could be added/altered is a better Synaptic type program. I LOVE CNR, it allows for community reviews and screenshots etc. If there were someway a program like this could find it's way into edgy I'd be a happy camper. and also the better installation of software in general, it doesn't have to be like windows .exe installs... but I would hope that something as easy or easier can be worked out...

koshatnik
July 5th, 2006, 04:50 PM
Linux is an alternative to Windows and OSX not a replacement. You pays yer money, (or not in the case of Linux) you takes yer choice. As has been mentioned before, your average Joe isn't even aware of Linux, let alone know how to install and use it. Recently, I replaced my parents XP machine with Ubuntu. They don't know much about computers, and I was concerned about security issues with their set up. I transfered all their documents, and installed ubuntu - not only did it run about 10x faster on the machine, but they dont need to bother with antivirus, defragging or a software firewall (they are behind a router). They love ubuntu. But previous to me installing it, they had no idea about Linux.

But the word is getting out.

aysiu
July 5th, 2006, 04:53 PM
I'm not sure if I see the point any more in arguing about whom Linux is perfect for or appropriate for. God knows I've argued it back and forth many times on this forum (probably in this very thread).

All I know is that there are some people who should be using Linux but who have never even heard of it, and there are some people who should not be using Linux but insisting on trying to install it and use it.

Foxmike
July 5th, 2006, 06:40 PM
Firstly, excuse my poor english (native francophone...)

I think this is all about the fight between two schools of thoughts, first one being "Ruled World" and second one being "Chaotic World". Of course the both schools of thought have advantages and disadvantages, but none are perfect since they both represents extremes. The best system would be something in between, a bunch of independent groups with one that would emmit the general direction to take but nothing more precise than that, and the other ones that do whatever they want as long as it follows the general direction. This way, we keep pulling all togheter in the same direction (or about), but it leaves the freedom of creativity to all individuals.

For those who sees Linux VS Microsoft as a fight (personnaly I don't see things like that, but still...), just remember that Microsoft has supremacy on his terrain, so if you want to beat it, you will have to bring him on a terrain it doesn't knows and fight with different rules than his.

DoctorMO
July 5th, 2006, 07:36 PM
I will recomend that people lower their expectations in some areas in order to get linux on their machines, so they used to play games at least they're not being hacked. sometimes what you pay is not just money or time.

newlinux
July 5th, 2006, 08:22 PM
I don't think the latest Linux distros are anymore difficult to use than Windows. I just think people have grown up or grown accustomed to Windows, so using new Windows OSs are easier then using Linux for them. I actually started off on Solaris, SGI, and DEC Unix OSs with various windowmanagers, and then I went on to use Windows, and I found Windows quite annoying at first because I was used to Unix and X, and I felt things worked more logically in Unix, and it was much more extensible (this is comparing it to Win 3.1). Now I've been using primarily windows for the last 10 years and just switched to Ubuntu, and it just took a little getting used to, but i wouldn't say it was harder. Over the last couple of years I'm sure I spent just as much time if not more customizing Windows desktop, logins, themes, and adding software to do things I want done (P2P, multimedia, etc.) as I would doing the same things to Ubuntu. I've mainly just found Ubuntu to be different, but not harder...

I do realize that some apps don't exist for Linux that do for Windows. But in most cases there are suitable (and free) alternatives. For some (especially for power users of various apps) there are not, but this was always true with Macs and Windows as well, so pick your operating system based on your needs. But as far as usability goes etc. - I think the primary issue is that people aren't as familiar with it (and it's harder for them to find help) - not that it is more difficult to use.

bocmaxima
July 5th, 2006, 08:54 PM
I have been a windows user for about 10 years.

In XP, everything that I mentioned above works without any hassles.

So basically, my question is.... how do you guys do it? How do you use Ubuntu on a day-to-day basis and not freak out all the time? I just dont see the advantage of switching to Linux just yet other then the security of it.



You just answered your own question. Youve been using Windows for 10 years, and youve been using Linux for a few days. Of course it is going to be difficult.

Im 27. I started with computers when I was 10. At that time, when I got my DOS box, there wasnt a handy dandy forums, and everything didnt "just work". Same up until the jump from 95-98, then things started to be more centralized. Anyway, DOS was the same as Ubuntu in terms of unfamiliarity. I just kept throwing commands into it to get it to do tricks. It wasnt easy til I learned it.

So, dont you think its a little bit crass of you to compare the OS you have been familiar with for a decade, to one that you you arent at all familiar with? I mean, I have been a pure ubuntu user for about 2 weeks, and I can now get an install up and running on my machine within 45 minutes, including video/audio/flash (Automatix ftw). I have gone from only knowing the commands ls and man, to having just successfully compiled a program from source to run on my machine. I have installed a better kernel and Xgl/Compiz.

In 2 weeks. Just imagine what I can do in a decade.

Ubuntu is not windows, Linux is not DOS. If you want Windows, you have it, but if you aren't interested in learning a new OS for an (arguably) better system, then really just go back "home".

I also suggest you dual boot. I was actually going to dual boot for a couple of games, but that 6 hour install staring me in the face has kept me here in Linux.

aysiu
July 5th, 2006, 09:02 PM
Everyone has a different experience.

If Ubuntu were really that much of a struggle for everyone to set up, I wouldn't be using it (because "everyone" would include me, of course).

I've had very few struggles. You can read the thread titles of the threads I've started. Most of them are just "How can I tweak it just to be like this?" questions instead of "Oh, my God! It doesn't work! Help! Help!" questions.

udha
July 5th, 2006, 11:02 PM
bocmaxima, yeah, you're right, but it's a little immature to say "go back 'home'".
He is, as you say, only a few days into a sensibly orientated Operating System, after being used to windows for a decade, your image of what is right and wrong in OS design is totally shot to hell, and it took me for one some years to come to learn this.

To be clear, straight after school I did start a job that involved occational commands in linux servers, I was given a small ammount of training and some lengthy details on what was needed to perform what functions. I was so impressed with the power of this that I soon wanted to control things this quickly from windows, this was how I came to love Debian, and by extention, Ubuntu.

In contrast, setting up for example a virtual website in IIS was not hard by any stretch of the imagination, just tedious, in a short time I had a script adding sites into apache and a matter of keystrokes, somthing windows is hoping to achieve with MONAD, or whatever they are calling their next CLI that won't be shipping until the server versions of Vista, and if you think bash and linux are hard, wait until you try that out...

Also, it's easy to forget that when you installed Ubuntu, for the most part, drivers were all there, on my desktop I installed windows xp, I had no video acceleration, nor sound, and had to install chipset drivers, LAN drivers, Sound Blaster drivers, Video drivers, USB2 and SATA drivers, then I had almost no programs at my fingertips, giving me a pretty boring and unusable system until I spend several more days installing programs that are considered standard for most platforms.
Then I install Ubuntu, after installing it starts up, all drivers are in place and working, for 3d acceleration I install video card drivers, everything else is allready there, total time installing drivers after initial boot is about 10 minutes for the video. Just because I know how to install and use linux, doesn't make it easy to use, and just because you know how to install and use windows doesn't make IT easy to use. Ask a grandma to install your sound and video drivers, if you want to know what I mean.

hizaguchi
July 6th, 2006, 01:44 AM
I have been a windows user for about 10 years. A few days ago I decided to switch to Ubuntu because of all the rave reviews it gets.
I think that answers your question. After using an OS for 10 years, of course everything seems easy.

Maybe the specific complaints that you have about Gnu/Linux are automatically resolved in Windows, but there are plenty of things that work the other way around. Examples? Sure...

Want to change your desktop theme? Unless you like one of the standard themes you have to mess around with a hex editor and manipulate a .dll to enable the use of third party themes.

Your video driver isn't automatically detected (especially for laptops)? You have to go to the manufacturer's website, put in a code, sift through the pages of downloads, get the correct driver, and then install it through a wizard. In Linux all I had to do was change one line in my xorg.conf.

Want an AIM client that doesn't have flashing banner ads? In Windows you have to go download Trillian (or similar) and go through another install wizard. Gaim came with Linux and works great!

Want to be able to work with various forms of compressed archives (other than .zip)? In Windows I had to install several different programs and I'm constantly told that the free trial has expired. In Linux, file roller just works.

And on and on.


Point is, no OS is perfect and none can handle every need that every person will ever have ahead of time. Accepting that, no matter what OS you use, you will probably have to do some configuration yourself. And when it comes to that necessary configuration, it is only natural that you would think the OS you've been using for 10 years is easier than the one you've been using for a few days.

bocmaxima
July 6th, 2006, 02:21 AM
bocmaxima, yeah, you're right, but it's a little immature to say "go back 'home'".


I didnt mean it to sound that way, I meant if its too much to handle, then go where you are comfortable. Lots of time, growth and new experiences aren't the most comfortable thing because the status quo is so familiar. Thats all I meant. If everytime something a little uncomfortable caused us to run screaming back into the caves, we'd still be there.


Like I said, no OS is "easy" until you learn it, and then you can guage what tasks are easier in comparison.

Anyway, I didnt magically start using Ubuntu, I dabbled in Red-Hat 6, Mandrake 8, Knoppix, and OpenBSD, each time gleaning a little bit more. At first I could do nothing, and generally learned small commands, and stuff. When I installed ubuntu it was the perfect balance of getting me up and running with minimal hassle, then being able to explore.

I think Dual Booting is the way to go at first.

az
July 6th, 2006, 04:49 AM
From a strictly financial standpoint, Ubuntu would not and could not exist without the generosity and vision of Mark Shuttleworth.

Eventually it may become an economically sustainable business model through business enterprise and support, but right now I believe (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) Ubuntu is operating at a net loss.


Ubuntu is not in business. Ubuntu is a linux distribution.

Canonical sponsors Ubuntu and they want to make money from Launchpad. Ubuntu is a tool to promote the use of FLOSS and attract people to the wonderful tools that Launchpad will one day offer them.

Canonical already makes money by providing professional support and translation services for FLOSS. It probably will take a few years before there is a return on Canonical's investment.

But Ubuntu is not operating at a loss. Ubuntu is a community effort. If Canonical went away tomorrow (let's forget about the Ubuntu fund for a moment - 10 million in trust in case of problems...) would there no longer be a next release? I *highly* doubt that. Would it have the same vision and shape? I dunno. Probably.



But Ubuntu does have a lot of things going for it:

1. It may not be the best now but it's progressing at a rate that seems to make it a good candidate for being the best within a year.

Best as in most popular or best as in most features? Since not everybody wants the same thing, there is no real "best".



2. Its support is the best--in the form of these forums.

Free support? People who use the maililng lists say the same thing about them. Hundreds of companies offer support for Ubuntu. Canonical is setting up a world-wide call center for technical support here in Montreal.

There is a lot more to it than the forums. Perhaps you mean the users are more keen on helping others than in other distros?



3. It's completely free--no enterprise edition, no subscription or club, no nominal fee.

FLOSS. Other forms of linux for which you have to pay for features are proprietary since they do not ship the source code (Xandros, for example).



5. It ships CDs for free--including postage.

A great form of advertisement. A great idea as an investment. I think that is the thing that turned the most heads and got the most people interested in the community Expensive, though.

You forgot to mention the Comunity Council and the Technical board who are members of the community and who meet publicly regulary and are accountable to the community. Any other distro you know got that? (Linspire is trying something similar)

I think Ubuntu is great because it focuses on the software on the basis of its development and not just shipping the packages. Ubuntu tries to cater to the community because that's where all the good stuff happens.

IYY
July 6th, 2006, 05:28 AM
The author of the above article clearly does not understand Linux. For example, the following statement:


Is Linux so good that it can afford to waste so much manpower?

Linux "affording" wasting manpower? Linux is not a company, nor is it a person. It doesn't "afford" anything, it doesn't "choose" anything. Most developers are volunteers who do this in their spare time. This is how Linux works, and this is how it will always work. Yes, it's its weakness, but it's also the greatest strength.

If you want something that's just like Linux but without the fragmentation, you don't need to look far: just try FreeBSD. It is great for servers, but it's lagging behind on the desktop even though it follows the article's advice pretty closely.

Fire
July 6th, 2006, 01:29 PM
After looking through much of the last 17 pages of posts I have seen people that think linux is good for all and some that think its only good for those that understand computers. I suppose both are true depending on how you look at things. Its all about expectations. If your a low tech kind of person then it is likely that you only use the computer for email, chating, surfing, word processing and maybe doing some music listening and DVD watching. With Ubuntu all you have to do is load it and its ready to do all of that. And even if you buy another distro its still cheaper than windows. Because of some legal issues there are codecs that are not installed that have to be found and added yourself (that is the only problem i see for a low tech user)

But if your the kind of person that loves to mess with your machine and push it to its limits and customise everything then you have noticed that windows can only do so much. And when you do all of this with windows it starts to slow down and crash all the time. I tend to be a bit of a gamer and at home I have 3 computers running right now. I have my high end gaming computer. I have another computer with a low end graphics card.. really low end.. 64meg ram and 4 years old. and the 3rd computer is a 800mhz P3 that my daughter uses. (she is 3) I originally started using Linux so that I could get my daughters computer running. Windows was just to slow to have on that computer.. it runs great with Ubuntu. Right now my main game is World Of WarCraft which has no Linux client but with the use of Cegeda it runs flawlessly on the Linux system. I first put it on my Low graphics computer. With windows I couldn't runt he game on it because there was so much lag I could not even walk through town. After installing Linux I could play on the computer and not just play but it played smoother on that computer than it did on my Gaming computer.. So I changed over that last computer. And it is perfect, I am very impressed with ubuntu and how well it runs... I have now been Windows free for sometime and I have not yet found any cases where Linux can't do the same and better.

The only application that it seams windows fits better is for those that want to do some of the high tech stuff but have no interest in actually learning how. In that case its possible that windows could be easier.. but after about 2 days of loading codec and installing some software.. I found Linux to be just as easy..

kornelix
July 6th, 2006, 04:57 PM
Your assessment of Linux is correct, but few persons in this forum would admit that. Notice how most of the responses shifted the problem from the product (linux) to you the user, or your computer's lack of compatibility.

Linux has been struggling with power management and wireless for years, and likely will continue for more years.

I converted from XP to Linux about a year ago. I am a programmer and reasonably able to deal with the geeky complexity. I stuck with it for several weeks of frustration and eventually learned enough to be able to deal with the issues. This forum and other forums were a great help. I also got a book on Linux administration and Linux programming. Now I am happy with my Linux and my only issue is that some web video formats still do not work. Power management works somewhat on my system (CPU throttling works, suspend or hibernate causes a reboot). I don't need wireless. Ubuntu is my 3rd distribution to try out, and it seems to have an edge over the others (better documentation and forum support).

The caretakers of Linux value their creative freedom more than your convenience. As long as there are no paying customers and looming competition, this will remain the case.

DirtDawg
July 6th, 2006, 06:41 PM
Yes, I agree....Ubuntu was very stable, and it ran very fast on my notebook.

I might try it out again in a year or two if I still have a PC. Or by then I might be Running apple hardware and OS, so who knows. heh heh.

Before you switched I hope you had a chance to browse through the software libraries (Synaptic). That's where Linux gets really fun. Hundreds of applications, all free to download and play with at your leisure. Hundreds more available outside Synaptic, if you're willing to learn some tricks.

Don't forget, dual-booting is always an option too. That's what I, and probably millions of other Linux users, do. Linux can seem frustrating at first, but it grows on you the more you use it until it's all you want to use.

billyevil
July 6th, 2006, 07:40 PM
i like those linspire and xandros preinstalled microtel machines on walmart and amazon.. just because they may have less compatibility issues than just a windows box that tends to cost a couple hundred more.. and you can always put xubuntu on it when you get home.. thinking of picking up one to replace my grandfather's aging pentium 3 that he runs windows on and has me over a couple times a month to remove some spyware or whatever he's managed to get.. i think on a selfish note it would be better for me since i wouldn't need to go over to fix the computer so much and would be able to have fun visiting.. i think that's worth 300 bucks..

Drakkor
July 6th, 2006, 09:35 PM
Most people think a computer is like a car, turn the key and drive away,they want nothing to do with learning how an internal combustion engine works. But these are the people who are always having this or that problem and can't figure it out. Surf the net and email are usually what most people do with computers, unless you're like 13 and have to download all the latest 50cent tracks.

geek.de.nz
July 7th, 2006, 05:20 AM
Ubuntu makes Linux desktop use as easy as it can get with Free Linux based systems!

I found that the installation is actually simpler than installing Windows, even if you install both. Windows has to be installed first, otherwise you'll have problems with the MBR (master boot record)...

Anyway, the question is, whether Ubuntu is good for the average user. Well, I'm just trying to answer this question: I installed Ubuntu Dapper Drake on my parents' PC. It seems to be working fine (using the 64-bit version btw). Of course, they cannot get things to work like 32-bit programs under the 64-bit architechture, but I'm taking care of that.

Anyway, I can't see why support is better with Windows. I hardly find information on the web about windows issues, at least not as good as with linux. For Linux there is mostly a copy/paste howto, which is very easy to use, even if one only knows little about the system.

What I hate about windows:
1. The registry is a complete nightmare. I have to admit, I don't understand the structure or the use of the registry itself. It's totally in-transparent to me and I think the average user. Also, it makes the system slower, the more applications are installed and eventually one has to reinstall (or rewrite using a rescue image), because one cannot really debug it.


2. The support is really bad for a product, one pays hundreds of dollars for. On these forums, I get an answer after at most a week and usually I can make use of it.

3. Everything costs money or one downloads it illegally (cracked) which makes trojans, viruses and zombie programs etc. more likely.
Yes, one can also find many open-source software ported to windows, but apt-get (synaptic, adept) makes it so much easier to install on debian based linux. I can almost always find something in the repositories or on the web, where I only need to add a line or 2 into the /etc/apt/sources.list file.

4. Spyware, Viruses and crackers etc.
For windows, one has to install at least an anti-virus program and a firewall to be on the safe side. With Linux, not even a firewall is really necessary. This improves performance and saves administrative overhead. I never had a problem with a cracker, spyware or a virus or trojan with Linux. Yes, they are possible, but having many different distros which get updated with security fixes all the time it is so unlikely, that installing this kind of software is unnecessary in Linux.

5. Little things like the 'low diskspace warning', which can only be fixed with a registry hack are just plain annoying.

6. Automatic updates (in windows) seem to actually make things worse than better. My machine always gets very slow after a few months of having windows installed. Reinstalling etc wastes more time than learning the basics of Linux.

7. The closed source priciple makes it always a guess work to find out what's wrong. Plug and Play should be renamed to 'Plug and Pray'.

...

ubuntu27
July 7th, 2006, 08:09 AM
i wnat to get ubunto but i dont how to do it by mail cause i live in Cuba and i want to receive the free Cd with the ubunto distribution

You can also order Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/) CDs for your country. :)

https://shipit.ubuntu.com/


hitzero, Ingresa a https://shipit.ubuntu.com/ y ordena o pide los CD que quieras.


1 Ubuntu CD (1 PC Edition)
1 Ubuntu CD (1 64-bit PC Edition)
1 Ubuntu CD (1 Mac Edition)
3 Ubuntu CDs (1 PC Edition, 1 64-bit PC Edition, 1 Mac Edition)
5 Ubuntu CDs (5 PC Edition)
10 Ubuntu CDs (10 PC Edition)
10 Ubuntu CDs (8 PC Edition, 1 64-bit PC Edition, 1 Mac Edition)
10 Ubuntu CDs (5 PC Edition, 3 64-bit PC Edition, 2 Mac Edition)

Si no sabes que architectura tu comp utiliza, lo mas probable es que sea un PC de 32 bit.

Name: Nombre
Address: Dirreccion
City/Town: Cuidad
State/Province: Estado o Provincia
Postcode: Codigo Postal
Country: Pais-Cuba
Phone: Telefono


Los CD te llegaran en un mes a dos meses, dependiendo de tu ubicaciůn.

Good Luck! Suerte!


EDIT: Casi me olvidaba. Si quieres pedir CDs de Kubuntu (http://www.kubuntu.org/), podras hacerlo en: https://shipit.kubuntu.org

o Edubuntu (http://www.edubuntu.org/) en https://shipit.edubuntu.org

kornelix
July 7th, 2006, 11:42 AM
First of all, I think you're missing something--people are, as I mentioned before--already trying to combine efforts.


The Gnome KDE unification is not. They are only working on some common standards for desktop integration, so that applications will be better able to work in both systems, e.g. an app with KDE GUI will be better able to run on a system with Gnome desktop.

A fine example of "makework" to waste the time of a few hundred programmers instead of solving the problem.

Miguel
July 7th, 2006, 01:08 PM
IMHO, gnome and KDE shouldn't merge. These particular projects don't seem to lack manpower. And they are designed with different concepts of usability in mind. On the other hand, having Gaim to perform better in KDE or Amarok working better in Gnome is not an idea to be thrown away easily.

B0rsuk
July 8th, 2006, 08:14 AM
It can be tough the first time you configure something, but later, you already know what to do. When you know what to do, takes just a few minutes.

Nomearod
July 8th, 2006, 11:15 PM
There is more than 400 active distros. Wouldn't be better if there was only 20? If there was less distros, it would be possible to have more volunteers working on the active distros.

Miguel
July 8th, 2006, 11:53 PM
Wouldn't be better if there was only 20?

It would probably be more efficient. Would it be better? It depends on your point of view. Do you believe in open source from a technical point of view (e.g. Linus Torvalds) or from a philosophical point of view (e.g. Richard Stallman)? From the philosophical point, this "biodiversity" is actually a good thing, as it is only human beings exerting their freedom.

I think that a similar question to the distro thing is the following one: Is technocracy superior to democracy? Of course, social behaviour is not the same as software engineering, but just wanted to point out an analogy.

Just remember linux' goal is not world dominance ;)

aysiu
July 8th, 2006, 11:58 PM
Ever heard of the expression "Too many chefs in one kitchen"? I don't think having only 20 distros would be more efficient... not by a long shot.

jacksaff
July 9th, 2006, 06:10 AM
There is more than 400 active distros. Wouldn't be better if there was only 20? If there was less distros, it would be possible to have more volunteers working on the active distros.

The vast majority of distributions are little more than a repackaging of one of the main distros with a different set of default packages and perhaps some graphics. They require very little work indeed and detract not at all from their parent distro. The main work is in packaging and maintaining all of the different apps and there are only a few distros that try and do that.
Debian (ubuntu re-use a lot of their packaging work) redhat and suse basically do the same things but have incompatible systems and so all the packaging work is duplicated. Slackware does similar on a more limited scale. Gentoo does things very differently and there are a few other small distros that either use different packaging methods or have made themselves incompatible in other ways.
The amount of duplicated effort here is significant but is balanced by the positive effects of doing things in several different ways which leads to faster innovation as the better ideas get copied or absorbed. It's certainly not a matter of effort divided among 400+ different projects. The proof in the pudding is the phenomenal improvements made in desktop distros over the past five years. No sign of wasted effort here.

Miguel
July 9th, 2006, 10:20 AM
Ever heard of the expression "Too many chefs in one kitchen"? I don't think having only 20 distros would be more efficient... not by a long shot.

Hi Aysiu,

I don't think the kitchen analogy works here, though. Just my oppinion. But more on that later, Aysiu. First let me ask you something. In what sense do you think that 20 distros wouldn't be more efficient? "20 distros is still too much" or "20 distros are not enough for genetics-like evolution"?

Back to the kitchen. While I am with you in that projects must have a clear goal and a clear leader to avoid useless work and waste of time, while I do agree that not having a clear vision of the project ends up hurting the final product, it is also true that having too large of a group is also counterproductive. What's more, joining e.g. SuSe devs and Debian devs would be like having two chefs cooking a main dish with one pushing for steak and the other one pushig towars fish. But this is only my oppinion. Feel free to disagree, while we might not convince anyone, we can still learn from each other.

PS: As my profile indicates, I am a young physicist so my understanding of management can be terribly off.

egon spengler
July 9th, 2006, 12:52 PM
The thing that seems glaringly obvious to me is that if there is at least 462 active distros then there must at least 462 developers. Realistically running a Linux distro is probably more than a one person job and so I think we could estimate that there is roughly 1,000 Linux developers.

Now if this day ever came where there was just this one unified Linux project would it really need 1,000 developers? Of course not. I have no idea what the optimal amount of developers for a Linux distro would be (other than it would be < 1,000) so let's pull a generous number out of the air and say 100 is best. That still leaves 900 developers kicking their heels.

In other words only an incredibly naive person could think that all these distros are "wasted effort" because quite obviously not every single developer would be able to contribute to a unified distro and so would never contribute either way


Of course I should add that in reality there is nowhere near 462 distros that get used much so it's very misleading to use that number. A lot of people make their pet project available but that's not the same thing as them launching it as a distro with serous intent to gain a marketshare. There probably already is less than 20 distros that are seriously used

mech7
July 9th, 2006, 01:50 PM
Ok there is all this advertising ubuntu for human beings.. it gives the assumption that it is easy to configure and use.. but it's not.

First installation.. gets a black screen after installation. Need after looking for a couple of hours finally find a solution to adjust device settings in the console. Great first start :-s

So next my wireless does not work it only has setting for wep not even wpa i mean common linux was supposed to be secure? Am finding lots of people have problems with wireless and solutions on recompiling new drivers and installing new firmware.. and doing it through the internet :-s funny without a connection..

It's not even possible opening files as root by default through the gui.. no you need to look for a few hours and find a script that actually works to do it..

Meehh first impressions of ubuntu are not very good. The claim that it is for human beings is just false, I mean common be honest it's still for geeks...

thankfully my windows installation still works great :)

_simon_
July 9th, 2006, 01:58 PM
all linux distros require some learning and perseverence. My partner is no geek yet she uses it on a daily basis.

Ubuntu is one of the easiest distros to install and configure that I have ever used. It sounds like you are just not ready to let go of windows.

loell
July 9th, 2006, 02:05 PM
unless the user is not human enough to understand that ubuntu requires a little reading here and there, and a little asking from him/her or them
then "maybe" just "maybe" its not for him/her

John.Michael.Kane
July 9th, 2006, 02:09 PM
mech7 instead of complaining ect. why not try posting your problems so that you can get help. also linux is not windows, and the tone of your post would lead some to feel your trying to start a flame or troll. if your not happy with ubuntu theres many other distros out there that may suit your needs, you should have read this Is Ubuntu for You? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315).to make sure you was up to using ubuntu or any other linux distro.

MrHorus
July 9th, 2006, 02:12 PM
So next my wireless does not work it only has setting for wep not even wpa i mean common linux was supposed to be secure?


Linux is secure.

Wireless connectivity is something that you add on to the operating system to add functionality. If you want to use WPA then you install and configure WPA Supplicant.

You can't criticise an entire operating system jsut because you haven't bothered to look into how to set up a few applications and install a few packages. I recently installed Windows XP Professional on my old laptop and out of the box it doesn't support WPA but recognise the fact that if something doesn't work out of the box I maybe need to install some drivers or applications.

I don't cricitise Windows because the wifi card or the inbuilt modem doesn't work by default - I find a solution.

MrHorus
July 9th, 2006, 02:14 PM
Sorry, I should say Linux is secure enough for most purposes, not that is *is* secure and that is the end of the matter.

Security of course is an on going process, not a goal in itself.

Just wanted to clarify that :)

matthew
July 9th, 2006, 02:36 PM
mech7: sorry you've encountered problems. Some users do, but not as many as one might think. Instead of complaining you might try to use these forums for their intended purpose, finding help. If that isn't your goal I would like to politely and gently suggest you find something you can use happily.

cyberlite
July 9th, 2006, 02:43 PM
Mech7 Its like this, Bill gates hald your hand for far too long, It's time to do alittle work and walk by your self. I installed ubuntu 2 days ago and its going great, if I get stack with something this forum will help you. The thing is that with microsoft everything is automated for you, Here with ubuntu you have the power, you are in control, you have the choice and not bill gates.

mech7
July 9th, 2006, 03:17 PM
This is not to start a flame.. well maybe im just getting a bit annoyed not getting my wireless working :mad:

Ok yes it is free.. and yes i do want to get with xp.. but still I think in terms of user friendliness ubuntu has a long way to go :( Personally I think when these issues get fixed it and it would work out of the box it would be far more attractive for people to install and use ubuntu.

MrHorus
July 9th, 2006, 03:22 PM
Ok yes it is free.. and yes i do want to get with xp.. but still I think in terms of user friendliness ubuntu has a long way to go :( Personally I think when these issues get fixed it and it would work out of the box it would be far more attractive for people to install and use ubuntu.

The goal is for things to "just work" out of the box but again with Windows many things don't work out of the box yet either.

You might find that Linux has a little bit of a learning curve but thats because you are not used to it, just like people who have never touched computers before will find there to be a learning curve.

Stick with it tho and you will reap the rewards :)

matthew
July 9th, 2006, 03:24 PM
This is not to start a flame.. well maybe im just getting a bit annoyed not getting my wireless working :mad:

Ok yes it is free.. and yes i do want to get with xp.. but still I think in terms of user friendliness ubuntu has a long way to go :( Personally I think when these issues get fixed it and it would work out of the box it would be far more attractive for people to install and use ubuntu.I definitely don't want this to be a flame war either. I would like you to consider that not everyone is experiencing what you are experiencing. For the majority of people I have encountered installation has been easy and just worked right the first time, which to me is wonderful and amazing. I also know there are some like you who are having problems. This is not your fault, but it is also not typical. For most people an Ubuntu install does work out of the box. I understand your frustration and I sympathesize. I hope your questions/problems can be answered in these forums (as I see people trying to do for you in other threads).

All I am asking you to do is please do not project your experiences on everyone else and presume that because some have problems everyone or most people experience them. Your experiences qualify you to speak on your own behalf, not for other users.

Have a great day.

John.Michael.Kane
July 9th, 2006, 03:26 PM
mech7 you have to understand that out of the box anything. Is depended on the hardware makers.Their drivers have to be available for linux devs to use or implement into a distro. for now the most you can do is search out linux friendly hardware, and or post you problemmatic hardware issues here on the forum to see if theres a fix.complining about linux don't have this or that will not get you or anyone else the help they need.



Please post the issues your having in the right part of the forums so you can get the help you need, and include your system spec's.

crystal
July 9th, 2006, 03:35 PM
Ok yes it is free.. and yes i do want to get with xp.. but still I think in terms of user friendliness ubuntu has a long way to go Personally I think when these issues get fixed it and it would work out of the box it would be far more attractive for people to install and use ubuntu.
You might find the article Linux is Not Windows (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm) a good read, in particular the section "Problem #5".

aysiu
July 9th, 2006, 04:26 PM
I don't think the kitchen analogy works here, though. Just my oppinion. Apparently, it does work, according to your opinion:
What's more, joining e.g. SuSe devs and Debian devs would be like having two chefs cooking a main dish with one pushing for steak and the other one pushig towars fish. But this is only my oppinion. That was my point, exactly, so I don't see how you're disagreeing.

Your example talks about only two chefs. I'm saying if all those developers were working on one distro, it'd be like having hundreds of chefs in one kitchen...

Hence, the expression "Too many chefs in one kitchen."

Gardiner Westbound
July 9th, 2006, 04:31 PM
With regret I have given up on Ubuntu 6.06, and deleted it from my computer. Thank God I had a full Windows backup!

The Ubuntu operating system is a fine work and the open source applications are extremely competent, however, after four days reading forums and attempting member-contributed installations I failed to get my Linksys WUSB54Gv4 Wireless-G USB Network Adapter to work.

An article suggested the developers knew Dapper Drake was not ready for prime time but released it regardless. I think this was a mistake. Many will give up on Linux and never return. I will check back every few months looking for a V.7 or V.8 with the problems sorted out.

siccness
July 9th, 2006, 04:35 PM
Well that's a shame, you sure you don't want to give it another try? There are a number of members here who would love to give you a hand on setting up your network.

aysiu
July 9th, 2006, 04:47 PM
What does "for human beings" mean? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70603)

anil_robo
July 9th, 2006, 05:05 PM
Sorry to see you go this time. Hopefully Edgy Eft will answer your doubts! Do come back after some time!

T700
July 9th, 2006, 05:10 PM
This is not to start a flame.. well maybe im just getting a bit annoyed not getting my wireless working :mad:

I find it puzzling when people post flamebait, get a negative response, and then act very innocent. If you want help, there are many here, including me, who will be happy to assist.

Paul

aysiu
July 9th, 2006, 05:12 PM
I find it puzzling when people expect Ubuntu to autodetect every single piece of hardware out there... when Windows doesn't even do this.

And most hardware is designed for Windows, too!

Windows doesn't detect it? That's okay, because Windows comes preinstalled. Ubuntu doesn't detect it? It's for geeks only.

DSn0wMan
July 9th, 2006, 05:19 PM
I am sure if Dells shipped with Ubuntu they would have it all set up for you, no complaints.

A brand new install of windows without the dell software is actually quite difficult on my laptop, while Ubuntu was actually very quick and easy.

It might be a rare case, but it seems my hardware is better supported by Ubuntu than windows.

aysiu
July 9th, 2006, 05:24 PM
Well, people seem pretty happy with (Ubuntu-preinstalled) System76 computers:
http://demian0311.blogspot.com/2006/04/review-of-system76.html
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=191984

chajuram
July 9th, 2006, 05:45 PM
Well, when ubuntu insinuates it is easy to install, it means on the average. Most people on this forum have had a nice experience. There are a number of tools like automatix that help you get started.

One has to realize that no one organization is taking care of of linux working out of the box, it is human beings like you and me (in addition to Canonical). If you want a replacement of windows that just works, I suggest Mac and pay the extra money.

When you have been using an OS for ages (ten years), you tend to get used to its problems or work around them. Try using windows after two months of working with linux and you will see its faults.

Chajuram.

aysiu
July 9th, 2006, 05:49 PM
Frustrated users don't think "on average"--they think about "me" and "my experience" and then extrapolate that to mean everybody... or even most users.

DSn0wMan
July 9th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Frustrated users don't think "on average"--they think about "me" and "my experience" and then extrapolate that to mean everybody... or even most users.

That makes sense. I like to think I am like most people, except with a couple streaks of brilliance here and there.

IYY
July 9th, 2006, 06:20 PM
Meehh first impressions of ubuntu are not very good. The claim that it is for human beings is just false, I mean common be honest it's still for geeks...

That's not what reading these forums suggests. It seems that at least 50% of users are not at all geeky, and don't understand computers all that well.

Miguel
July 9th, 2006, 06:27 PM
OK, I just re-read your post and my quote. I am to blame here, as I missed the key word "only". And yes, it seems I agree with you. Sorry for reading quick. I just directly assumed "20 distros not effective" + "kitchen" meant "too many people trying to achieve the same goal (good food or distro) using different and conflicting ways". Sorry again.

mech7
July 9th, 2006, 06:37 PM
With windows i put in a cd with drivers i let it autodetect and every hardware gets recognized..

With ubuntu i have been trying now for 2 days getting everything to work and still don't have wireless working.. And had to be in the terminal or console for about 90% of the time as i can't do anything the gui.. I have had to download / extract / compile / install.. and still does not work.
This is really not something that anyone would get.

What is kinda funny is that everybody is acting up when i say something negative about the os.. i mean please you can take a little critic don't you :-s

But i can turn it the otherway around too.. Just because other people have it working why should i be positive about it?
Also I am definitly now the only one with these problems as i find many threads where people need to go through all sorts of loops and holes to get something working.

DSn0wMan
July 9th, 2006, 06:46 PM
@ mech7

I would have to agree that the wireless support could be better. Obviously any OS has it's flaws. With the help of people on this forum every thing quickly becomes easy.

The main reason to use Ubuntu in my opinion is the comunity. Ofcourse results may vary. I would just give Ubuntu a chance for a month or so, and if it doesnt start making things better for you computer wise, then uninstall it.

FYI - I dont hate windows, it definately has it's place, and comes in handy at times. I just find that for the majority of things I do Ubuntu performs better.

chajuram
July 9th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Frustrated users don't think "on average"--they think about "me" and "my experience" and then extrapolate that to mean everybody... or even most users.

I understand that, but Ubuntu works for a large number of situations how do you tell people that.

My suggestion for the original post will be that try the live CD, if things don't work, and you do not have the patience to try to make them work please think otherwise.

And no one is acting up. We all want ubuntu to work out of the box, but it doesn't and will take time for it to. People are only trying to explain the situation to you.

Chajuram.

FPStanley
July 9th, 2006, 06:54 PM
But i can turn it the otherway around too.. Just because other people have it working why should i be positive about it?
Also I am definitly now the only one with these problems as i find many threads where people need to go through all sorts of loops and holes to get something working.

Well, I can promise you that if you go to any random Windows tech support forum, you are likely to find many situations, "where people need to go through all sorts of loops and holes to get something working".

Linux is Linux, Linux is not Windows. Linux requires a bit more effort no matter what distribution you go with (yes, even Xandros and Linspire included).

cyberlite
July 9th, 2006, 06:56 PM
Mech7 I'll say it again , Bill gates hald your hand for far too long, It's time to do alittle work and walk by your self. I installed ubuntu 2 days ago and its going great, if I get stack with something this forum will helps you. The thing is that with microsoft everything is automated for you, Here with ubuntu, you have the power,you have the choice, you are in control.

Hey I have been working with windows since win 95 came out,I work for a firm that repairs computer and two days ago I installed ubuntu on my xp machine and it was no picnic to install, a dual OS pc, but I,m here writing to you from from my ubunto OS, you have to give it time, there is a learning curve, linux is not xp. If you not happy with linux well.......MR Bill:evil: is waiting for more cash..

rahelvey
July 9th, 2006, 06:56 PM
What does "for human beings" mean? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70603)
well done!

crystal
July 9th, 2006, 07:00 PM
With windows i put in a cd with drivers i let it autodetect and every hardware gets recognized..
With Ubuntu I put in the CD and let it autodetect and every piece of hardware gets recognised. I try with another computer in my household and am faced with a monitor problem that I would have no idea how to solve on my own.

The live CD is a means to find out about potential problems. The community means that I do not have to solve the problems on my own. On the other hand, if I want commercial support, I must pay for it. Then again, I would have to pay for commercial support (perhaps included in the software license cost) with a proprietary system anyway.

matthew
July 9th, 2006, 07:24 PM
With windows i put in a cd with drivers i let it autodetect and every hardware gets recognized..

I definitely don't mind honest and legitimate criticism, but I call BS on this statement. I have spent hours on the internet browsing hardware manufacturers' web sites looking for hardware drivers for Windows installations (95, 98, 98se, Me and XP)--not updates mind you, necessary drivers to get the hardware recognized. I have never seen a Windows cd immediately recognize all the hardware on a system unless it was a cd provided by an OEM with a system purchased from them, a cd with a modified Windows installation that already included the drivers for that particular system's hardware.

Your complaint about wireless drivers for Linux is founded and understandable...it is mainly due to the fact that wireless hardware manufacturers have not written Linux drivers and in many cases not even released the specifications for their hardware so that a Linux user/programmer can write one.

Anyway, I wish you well using something else that better suits your needs and sensibilities. I hope you find what you need and end up enjoying it greatly.

gThree
July 9th, 2006, 08:14 PM
Good reminder that it's important to have a fall-back option any time you try a new operating system. Even one with a lot of "buzz".

I found Dapper a slightly bumpier upgrade than Breezy (on PowerPC) but the benefits of upgrading far out-weighed the minor inconveniences. Perhaps this is what the developers based their decision on?

Keeping tabs on future releases is a great idea. I'm amazed at how much Ubuntu has improved on PowerPC since Hoary.

Here's hoping you have a better experience next time ....

kinematic
July 9th, 2006, 08:34 PM
If you want support for a particular piece of hardware go to the manufacturer and demand it....after all you paid for the hardware and you have the right to use it on any OS you like without them limiting your choice.....if you buy the hardware they have an obligation to support it on any platform imo.
It's like buying a car from Ford and them telling you where you can and cannot drive.

crystal
July 9th, 2006, 08:37 PM
if you buy the hardware they have an obligation to support it on any platform
I have my doubts - the hardware might be clearly labelled as only having official support for certain operating systems.

majesticturkey
July 9th, 2006, 08:54 PM
As far as I'm concerned, Linux is not about overtaking Microsoft's market share. It's not about having a single perfect distro. Linux is freedom, and with that, the freedom to have the operating system and environment that you want. Not the one that someone else finds perfect, but the one that YOU find perfect. There are so many distributions because there are that many different perceptions of what a good OS is.

richbarna
July 9th, 2006, 09:04 PM
This is a good reason why new users should keep a dual-boot with Windows at the beginning.
Sorry that things didn't work out this time, and it's nice to hear that you had back-up as well.
Maybe you will have better luck with Edgy when it comes out. Keep checking up on the info as Ubuntu is the best.

Good luck :)

Phosphoric
July 9th, 2006, 09:08 PM
What is really frustrating me after 3 weeks or so trying to get Ubuntu to even give me a basic operating package is that Live CD connects fine to the internet and the installed OS does not.

Come on chaps, it's pretty fundamental. After 3 weeks of trying, reading, appealing and not getting a solution I really am put off from taking up Ubuntu as a serious OS. I've never had so many problems with M$ as I have with Linux. I would really like to succeed with Ubuntu, but I've had a very patchy respones to my problems with internet access and I really don't want to go in to the problems of graphics resolution, DVD playing, FAH installtion. Jeez, it's a nightmare!

No sale for me at the moment


I really would like to go Ubuntu, but it really is so difficult

Kilz
July 9th, 2006, 09:20 PM
With regret I have given up on Ubuntu 6.06, and deleted it from my computer. Thank God I had a full Windows backup!

The Ubuntu operating system is a fine work and the open source applications are extremely competent, however, after four days reading forums and attempting member-contributed installations I failed to get my Linksys WUSB54Gv4 Wireless-G USB Network Adapter to work.

An article suggested the developers knew Dapper Drake was not ready for prime time but released it regardless. I think this was a mistake. Many will give up on Linux and never return. I will check back every few months looking for a V.7 or V.8 with the problems sorted out.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/tghc/ubuntu/lol.png
While you may have looked around, you didn't ask for any help. Notice the red circled number under your name is at 1. Meaning this is your first post on the forum.
The Ubuntu community is second to none. People with problems are encouraged to post the problem and ask for help. If you had done so I'm sure lots of people here would have done their best to help you. If after that time you still had issues maybe your post would make sense.
If for some reason you come back to look at this post, and why would you make one if you didn't plan on coming back to look. Please read this page. (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm)

Max Luebbe
July 9th, 2006, 09:31 PM
Unless you ask for help, you can't really even nail down that your hardware was unsupported.

Perhaps the network config was messed up because you were inexperienced in setting it up.
Don't give up yet, give us some more details and we'll do our best to sort you out!

John.Michael.Kane
July 9th, 2006, 09:32 PM
Phosphoric the live/install cd has some known issues. if you can you may want to try installing from the alternate-cd (http://releases.ubuntu.com/6.06/ubuntu-6.06-alternate-i386.iso). you may have better results with it.

kinematic
July 9th, 2006, 09:48 PM
I have my doubts - the hardware might be clearly labelled as only having official support for certain operating systems.

it's my opinion that they should provide support for all platforms like i said in my first reply.

Max Luebbe
July 9th, 2006, 09:54 PM
It'd be nice if that was true - but in the end, if a company doesnt want to hire a bunch of programmers to do drivers for platform X, thats their decision and their money.

I wish more of them who make that choice however would provide the neccessary documentation for us coders to write our own drivers.

cyberlite
July 9th, 2006, 10:04 PM
A great man once said ask and ye shall receive, he did not ask, so he did not
receive. Now back to bill :twisted:

Teroedni
July 9th, 2006, 10:05 PM
With regret I have given up on Ubuntu 6.06, and deleted it from my computer. Thank God I had a full Windows backup!

The Ubuntu operating system is a fine work and the open source applications are extremely competent, however, after four days reading forums and attempting member-contributed installations I failed to get my Linksys WUSB54Gv4 Wireless-G USB Network Adapter to work.

An article suggested the developers knew Dapper Drake was not ready for prime time but released it regardless. I think this was a mistake. Many will give up on Linux and never return. I will check back every few months looking for a V.7 or V.8 with the problems sorted out.

Thats exactly the same card i have.
In dapper it comes with a driver caller rt2570
All you have to do is add rausb0 to you interfaces file

Howewer it is worth to note that this driver is a litlle bit unstable:/, just so your warned;)




Here is how it looks with me(iusing wep encryption)
/etc/network/interfaces
# This file describes the network interfaces available on your system
# and how to activate them. For more information, see interfaces(5).

# The loopback network interface
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback

# The primary network interface
auto eth0
iface eth0 inet dhcp

auto rausb0
iface rausb0 inet dhcp
wireless-essid linksys
wireless-key xxxxxxxxx

mech7
July 9th, 2006, 10:09 PM
I don't mean xp cd.. but i mean a cd with the drivers for the hardware.. i go into device manager let it search automatically on the cd or the net and it finds something.. I have had some difficulties with some old obscure hardware.. but not the pain ubuntu is giving me on a driver for wireless card...

Also I have troubles writing to a usb stick.. halt the times it put nothing on it the other half it does but i can't read them in windows? Even plain rtf files :s

It also frooze up on me while i closed it down when some windows where open :(

I would really like to get it working as i definitly think ubuntu has great potential, but i wonder if i get things running within in a few weeks.


I definitely don't mind honest and legitimate criticism, but I call BS on this statement. I have spent hours on the internet browsing hardware manufacturers' web sites looking for hardware drivers for Windows installations (95, 98, 98se, Me and XP)--not updates mind you, necessary drivers to get the hardware recognized. I have never seen a Windows cd immediately recognize all the hardware on a system unless it was a cd provided by an OEM with a system purchased from them, a cd with a modified Windows installation that already included the drivers for that particular system's hardware.

Qrk
July 9th, 2006, 10:14 PM
Also I have troubles writing to a usb stick.. halt the times it put nothing on it the other half it does but i can't read them in windows? Even plain rtf files :s


Make sure you unmount before removing the USB stick.

Kilz
July 9th, 2006, 10:20 PM
I don't mean xp cd.. but i mean a cd with the drivers for the hardware.. i go into device manager let it search automatically on the cd or the net and it finds something.. I have had some difficulties with some old obscure hardware.. but not the pain ubuntu is giving me on a driver for wireless card...


So you are blaming Ubuntu because the hardware manufacturer didn't include Linux drivers? Or is the CD one of those driver cd's that came with your computer?

molly_001
July 9th, 2006, 10:28 PM
To anil_robo ...
To crystal ...
To Richbarna ...
To Kilz ...
To cyberlite ...
To Teroedni ...

I apologize for cutting in on this thread, but it seems the OP is cutting out and heading down the road anyway.

I have for a few days tried to view the HTML for some of your dynamic signature in your posts. With no success, because each page view loads from some other directory as far as saved signatures are concerned. Thus I could never see the BBcode/HTML for what I wanted to mimic.

Could I ask you to point me in the right direction for coding to make my signature more attractive and dynamic, like some of yours are?


Thank you!!!

AndrewCaul
July 9th, 2006, 10:50 PM
I don't mean xp cd.. but i mean a cd with the drivers for the hardware.. i go into device manager let it search automatically on the cd or the net and it finds something.. I have had some difficulties with some old obscure hardware.. but not the pain ubuntu is giving me on a driver for wireless card...

Also I have troubles writing to a usb stick.. halt the times it put nothing on it the other half it does but i can't read them in windows? Even plain rtf files :s

It also frooze up on me while i closed it down when some windows where open :(

I would really like to get it working as i definitly think ubuntu has great potential, but i wonder if i get things running within in a few weeks.

Funny how a CD containing the Windows drivers for your hardware works with Windows. If you weren't supplied with that CD, you probably would have had the same amount of trouble trying to get it working.
Have you looked for a driver in Synaptic. I tell you, that's a great tool.

angkor
July 9th, 2006, 10:59 PM
Not this again.....:rolleyes:

Please move this to the Cafe, Matthew, since this is not a support thread at all.

:confused:

matthew
July 9th, 2006, 11:01 PM
Not this again.....:rolleyes:

Please move this to the Cafe, Matthew, since this is not a support thread at all.

:confused:How I missed that earlier I don't know. To the cafe we go!

angkor
July 9th, 2006, 11:04 PM
How I missed that earlier I don't know. To the cafe we go!

*lol*

That was FAST!

ps there's another one of these...something with Sayonara in the title ;)

John.Michael.Kane
July 9th, 2006, 11:07 PM
I think angkor means this one http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=212103

matthew
July 9th, 2006, 11:11 PM
This thread really belongs in the cafe rather than one of the support forums...so here we go!

matthew
July 9th, 2006, 11:14 PM
I think angkor means this one http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=212103With a magical power cord strum of the guitar...kerrangg! The thread was moved.

Now, back to the topic at hand. Does "Linux for human beings" mean Ubuntu will always install perfectly on any equipment thrown at it or are there limits to what we can expect? What is a reasonable perspective??

Discuss.

Gardiner Westbound
July 9th, 2006, 11:51 PM
A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/tghc/ubuntu/lol.png
While you may have looked around, you didn't ask for any help. Notice the red circled number under your name is at 1. Meaning this is your first post on the forum.
The Ubuntu community is second to none. People with problems are encouraged to post the problem and ask for help. If you had done so I'm sure lots of people here would have done their best to help you. If after that time you still had issues maybe your post would make sense.
If for some reason you come back to look at this post, and why would you make one if you didn't plan on coming back to look. Please read this page. (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm)
Iím sure you didnít intend to blame to victim, so hereís my experience with Ubuntu.

The sticky How to install WUSB54G for Dapper Drake in the Wireless Networking portion of this forum is typical. One is reluctant to find fault with a person who takes the time and effort to make a contribution, but like similar ďhow toĒ articles on various forums I tried over four days, it assumes new participants know considerably more than is the case.

I completed Step-1 after reading the Ubuntu Desktop Guide and figuring out commands are typed in a terminal. It was not mentioned in the instructions.

Step 2 says to install ndiswrapper. I downloaded it to a floppy on an alternate computer and transferred it to the Unbuntu desktop. Typing the given code in the terminal window doesnít extract the archive files. Double clicking on the file name seemed to. The next instruction says to go to the directory created and provides more code to enter. There must be some steps omitted because it didnít work for me. It helpfully says that if one has difficulty with the make command to install build essentials and kernel headers via synaptic, but no instructions are given.

I am not a novice to operating systems and cryptic commands. My experience goes back to the Commodore Vic-20 and typing entire programs from 100-page magazine articles! Nor am I adverse to self-help by researching knowledge bases and forums.

Ubuntu befuddles me. Itís like riding a bicycle; easy if you already know how. Rather than ask apparently painfully basic questions I decided to wait until a more user-friendly version comes out. I didnít intend to rile anybody.

GuitarHero
July 10th, 2006, 12:17 AM
If you want support for a particular piece of hardware go to the manufacturer and demand it....after all you paid for the hardware and you have the right to use it on any OS you like without them limiting your choice.....if you buy the hardware they have an obligation to support it on any platform imo.
It's like buying a car from Ford and them telling you where you can and cannot drive.

Make sure to email Linksys. I just did regarding a WMP54G wireless card. If enough people want it, they will make drivers. So for the sake of everyone else, give them an email:
http://linksys.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/linksys.cfg/php/enduser/ask.php?p_icf_3=2

Christmas
July 10th, 2006, 12:27 AM
It took about 3 or 4 months for me until I switched completely to Linux. I tried Red Hat, the network card didn't work properly and I didn't manage to try hard making it work, then Fedora Core 4, a good distro IMO than Ubuntu and everything worked. I don't say to use Ubuntu, just give a try to another distro and maybe it'll work and you'll like it.

xXx 0wn3d xXx
July 10th, 2006, 12:58 AM
I'm not using Ubuntu anymore either :( I used it for over 7 months and now I have moved to Arch Linux. I tried it at first and didn't like it but I tried it again and it works great and I love it. I plan to try Ubuntu again when Edgy Eft is released.

Rackerz
July 10th, 2006, 01:04 AM
Iím sure you didnít intend to blame to victim, so hereís my experience with Ubuntu.

The sticky How to install WUSB54G for Dapper Drake in the Wireless Networking portion of this forum is typical. One is reluctant to find fault with a person who takes the time and effort to make a contribution, but like similar ďhow toĒ articles on various forums I tried over four days, it assumes new participants know considerably more than is the case.

I completed Step-1 after reading the Ubuntu Desktop Guide and figuring out commands are typed in a terminal. It was not mentioned in the instructions.

Step 2 says to install ndiswrapper. I downloaded it to a floppy on an alternate computer and transferred it to the Unbuntu desktop. Typing the given code in the terminal window doesnít extract the archive files. Double clicking on the file name seemed to. The next instruction says to go to the directory created and provides more code to enter. There must be some steps omitted because it didnít work for me. It helpfully says that if one has difficulty with the make command to install build essentials and kernel headers via synaptic, but no instructions are given.

I am not a novice to operating systems and cryptic commands. My experience goes back to the Commodore Vic-20 and typing entire programs from 100-page magazine articles! Nor am I adverse to self-help by researching knowledge bases and forums.

Ubuntu befuddles me. Itís like riding a bicycle; easy if you already know how. Rather than ask apparently painfully basic questions I decided to wait until a more user-friendly version comes out. I didnít intend to rile anybody.

You have got to be joking right? The only Windows I use is XP and knowing absolutely nothing about the command line I use Ubuntu and its simple. I knew nothing, didn't know how but now I do. I didn't read any Linux books I just went through Howto's and information on these forums and that's how I found out how to use the CLI.

Gardiner Westbound
July 10th, 2006, 01:37 AM
I'm delighted you found it so simple. I note this is your 555th post on this forum. Clearly you have been at it for some time.

wog
July 10th, 2006, 01:38 AM
I guess it depends entirely on what the user is used to.

I'm just learning Linux after having learned Mac and Windows. Admittedly, Mac and Windows are commercial OSes, but I suspect most hardware issues in Linux can be solved through the application of the LiveCD, barring the occasional bug in the LiveCD in question.

No OS works perfectly out of the box on hardware it isn't compatible with. I don't think I could count on both hands and feet all the times Windows failed to recognize the presence of a driver on a CD, even after being pointed at said CD. What most complainers seem to fail to realize is that they've just been lucky up to now. There's simply too much hardware out there for Ubuntu to be expected to detect all of it.

The primary problem I've had in figuring out Linux is the new way of administering things. The basic set of common instructions does not all seem to be in one place, unless you include the greater whole of this forum, and the links therein. The thread containing names for the programs used for x and y purposes has been terribly useful, as has been the incredible cameraderie found in this forum, but those are cultural issues.

Likewise, I know there's a manual on my machine for Linux and all the various programs I've installed, but I have yet to find them. The man pages seem largely dependent on knowing how to point the man command at the subject you want to know about. In this day of webpages I'm sure it would be nice to find all the instructions for doing things and some educational background about Linux directory structure and scripting in a web compendium or searchable dictionary on the hard drive, but that's more the skill-set associated with Linux and not the OS itself.

The only thing I can think of are things already being done, like getting the bugs worked out of the differences between the LiveCD and the install so users aren't confronted, last second, with an extra hurdle they weren't expecting.

There are times I wish I were a programmer, just so I could more directly help create solutions to the problems, but I'm not.

I dunno.

Rackerz
July 10th, 2006, 01:49 AM
Not even 3 months straight my friend.

Gardiner Westbound
July 10th, 2006, 01:49 AM
This is Linksys' reply.

Dear Valued Linksys Customer,

Thank you for contacting Linksys Technical Support.

Basically, you want to know if WUSB54G v.4 will work with Linux Ubuntu 6.06.

The WUSB54G v.4 adapter is designed to work with Windows Operating systems such as Windows 98se, ME, 2000 and XP. Since your operating system is Linux, the adapter will not work. In addition, we only provide drivers for Windows platform.

I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience.

If you have any further questions, feel free to visit our knowledge base at http://www.linksys.com/kb or send us an e-mail at support@linksys.com so that we can assist you. Once you get to the Knowledge Base section, either type in the Answer ID or the keywords under Search Text and click Search.


Sincerely,


Ivy G. Puzon
Badge ID 17524
Linksys - A Division of Cisco System, Inc.
Website: http://www.linksys.com

croak77
July 10th, 2006, 01:50 AM
I’m sure you didn’t intend to blame to victim, so here’s my experience with Ubuntu.

The sticky How to install WUSB54G for Dapper Drake in the Wireless Networking portion of this forum is typical. One is reluctant to find fault with a person who takes the time and effort to make a contribution, but like similar “how to” articles on various forums I tried over four days, it assumes new participants know considerably more than is the case.

I completed Step-1 after reading the Ubuntu Desktop Guide and figuring out commands are typed in a terminal. It was not mentioned in the instructions.

Step 2 says to install ndiswrapper. I downloaded it to a floppy on an alternate computer and transferred it to the Unbuntu desktop. Typing the given code in the terminal window doesn’t extract the archive files. Double clicking on the file name seemed to. The next instruction says to go to the directory created and provides more code to enter. There must be some steps omitted because it didn’t work for me. It helpfully says that if one has difficulty with the make command to install build essentials and kernel headers via synaptic, but no instructions are given.

I am not a novice to operating systems and cryptic commands. My experience goes back to the Commodore Vic-20 and typing entire programs from 100-page magazine articles! Nor am I adverse to self-help by researching knowledge bases and forums.

Ubuntu befuddles me. It’s like riding a bicycle; easy if you already know how. Rather than ask apparently painfully basic questions I decided to wait until a more user-friendly version comes out. I didn’t intend to rile anybody.


I guess you were confused by the '$'. You don't type that in. That means you are using a terminal and running commands as a user not root which is '#'. So if you had typed in $tar zxvf ndiswrapper-version.tar.gz you would get command not found error. It should have been tar zxvf ndiswrapper-version.tar.gz. 'ndiswrapper-version' means the version of ndiswrapper you downloaded. So if you had downloaded version 1.8, it would be tar zxvf ndiswrapper-1.8.tar.gz. Or you could type in tar zxvf ndis then hit 'Tab' and it will complete the rest.

What you need is the build-essential package to compile programs. You can use the GUI frontend to apt called Syanptic, got to your System menu and click on System->Administration->Synaptic Package Manger, to install it or you can type in a terminal, sudo aptitude install build-essential.

Like people have said, please ask for help if you are having trouble. There are a few guides out there to help new users with the basics.

http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/index.php

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/

http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper

Also there are a few Ubuntu channels on IRC. #ubuntu on irc.freenode.net.

Gardiner Westbound
July 10th, 2006, 02:04 AM
You have got to be joking right? The only Windows I use is XP and knowing absolutely nothing about the command line I use Ubuntu and its simple. I knew nothing, didn't know how but now I do. I didn't read any Linux books I just went through Howto's and information on these forums and that's how I found out how to use the CLI.
It was with a view to avoiding insufferably condescending answers that I didn't ask for specific help.

super
July 10th, 2006, 02:18 AM
just wanted to say that for a long time i felt the same way you do. linux just isn't ready for some people right now. however it is always improving. like you said, check back in a few months and it may be good enough for you then.

just a bit of randomness, but is you name a reference to the gardiner expressway?

dmizer
July 10th, 2006, 03:17 AM
It was with a view to avoiding insufferably condescending answers that I didn't ask for specific help.
you see alot of that here?

vayu
July 10th, 2006, 03:20 AM
What is your motivation for using Ubuntu? I know for a fact that one can run into equal show stoppers on any OS. If it were me, in this specific case, I'd spend $45 and get a new wireless card. (I replaced my motherboard because it just didn't jive with the OS I wanted to run. It was worth it for me)

trackerd
July 10th, 2006, 03:47 AM
I really expected alot more out of a linux based system. It doesnt even compare to windows in respect to allowing a beginner to install the OS by themselves and have it up and running before their grand children retire.[-X I installed it fine, it looks great, but getting internet access with wireless? pffft!!
One more thing.... as a beginner.. and trying to uderstand this system, I see on every website I go to, what we need to type into some unknown directory...what we need is.. a big fat door, with a sign that says... "Type those commands in here". I have no clue where to go...

Why, if there are millions of brilliant linux people out there, why isnt there locations or people to have install it for you? I know.. I know....... cry cry cry:-({|=

adam.tropics
July 10th, 2006, 03:53 AM
There is a learning curve, yes. As with anything else, even Windows. It's not what you're used to. But there is masses of help available to you, all you need do is search and/or ask for it. Although, whilst not trying to put you off trying, far from it, but you might read this (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315) (Is Ubuntu for you).

halitech
July 10th, 2006, 03:54 AM
I started my install expecting it to fail and having to look for days to find answers. Instead, I was up and running within an hour (about the same time as a windows install) with everything working and NO updates to do, unlike the 4 hours of updates I'd have to do with windows.

Now, I don't use wireless but I do understand that it cn be tricky but there are ways to get it working, either natively or using windows drivers with ndiswrapper.

As far as pre-installed, there are places but without knowing where you are, no sense giving websites for now.

As far as needing help, it's easier to get help if you actually say what you are haivng for issues, which version of Ubuntu you are using, what type of hardware you have and your internet connection type.

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 03:55 AM
http://www.system76.com

Support Linux vendors, and it won't be
"in the stone age" for long.

P.S. I had a real hell of a time trying to install Windows myself. It's no walk in the park!

halitech
July 10th, 2006, 03:57 AM
P.S. I had a real hell of a time trying to install Windows myself. It's no walk in the park!

I've done it so many times I can do it in my sleep and often do go to bed while running updates cause it takes forever to get them all :(

dmizer
July 10th, 2006, 03:58 AM
One more thing.... as a beginner.. and trying to uderstand this system, I see on every website I go to, what we need to type into some unknown directory...what we need is.. a big fat door, with a sign that says... "Type those commands in here". I have no clue where to go...

what wireless card are you trying to get working?

the commands you are seeing will need to be typed into your terminal. you can find taht in: applications > accessories. this will be similar to what you would expect to see in windows command prompt (start > run > cmd)

koshari
July 10th, 2006, 04:01 AM
"Why, if there are millions of brilliant linux people out there, why isnt there locations or people to have install it for you?"

do a google search for LUGS in your area,

K.Mandla
July 10th, 2006, 04:01 AM
Why, if there are millions of brilliant linux people out there, why isnt there locations or people to have install it for you? I know.. I know....... cry cry cry:-({|=
Sounds like you should have asked for help. Most of the people here started that way.

trackerd
July 10th, 2006, 04:06 AM
I know its all new and know I'm stressed out a bit, I've spent all my weekend trying to learn new things, but it seems as though I didnt get anything accomplished at all. The reason I'm trying this OS is... I fried my motherboard in my emachines computer, and their propriatory cd doesnt allow me to install a new motherboard because the drivers are not the same as the oem ones that are installed on the emachines recovery cd's. I'll never go that way again, so ...since I am unable to use the windows off of those cd's, I am forced to find a new operating system. I've heard great things about linux and the people involved, and I will keep trying, only because all of you have been kind to my whines.... quick, someone pass me some cheese.
My computer is amd athlon xp.. 1 gig of ram, 40gig hd (could be bigger).. nvidia geforce 5200, wireless netgear usb wg3111v2, updated sound card.. still no sound coming from the computer either... hmmmmph [-o< Thanks peeps..for your welcoming kindness and supportive statements.

Kilz
July 10th, 2006, 04:11 AM
I really expected alot more out of a linux based system. It doesnt even compare to windows in respect to allowing a beginner to install the OS by themselves and have it up and running before their grand children retire.[-X I installed it fine, it looks great, but getting internet access with wireless? pffft!!
One more thing.... as a beginner.. and trying to uderstand this system, I see on every website I go to, what we need to type into some unknown directory...what we need is.. a big fat door, with a sign that says... "Type those commands in here". I have no clue where to go...

Why, if there are millions of brilliant linux people out there, why isnt there locations or people to have install it for you? I know.. I know....... cry cry cry:-({|=

A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/tghc/ubuntu/Screenshot.png
You are the second person with 1 post, the complaint post , to post today. 3 times would be astronomical.
First off Windows isn't easier to install. Few people install windows. They get it preloaded. If they have to reinstall , its a restore disk with an image of the perinstall environment.

adam.tropics
July 10th, 2006, 04:12 AM
Well to quote Hitchhikers...DON'T PANIC! Just work out each of the problems one at a time. Most if not all of them will have been posted here before, so be sure to use the searches available to you. And if you still get stuck, post the specific problems. You'll be fine!

dmizer
July 10th, 2006, 04:18 AM
i assume you actually mean wg311v2 rather than wg3111v2.

have you looked here: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=212451&highlight=wg311v2

Tom Brokaw
July 10th, 2006, 04:18 AM
since I am unable to use the windows off of those cd's, I am forced to find a new operating system.

You could borrow a plain copy of the same version (XP Home, XP Pro, etc) and use your serial with that version. The software on the disk does not have the serial on it, it checks it through an algorithm, or something like that.

However, you would still have to get a new mobo, make sure all your old stuff (memory, cpu, graphics) would work with it, find drivers (although that shouldn't be a problem with a new board) and that could be just as big a headache as figuring out Ubuntu.

I feel you on the frustration thing. I am learning Linux so that I don't *have* to use a licensed OS, and Ubuntu because it is supposed to be an easy distro.

However, my expectations on what would be easy and what wouldn't have been turned upside down. Networking with Windows? Easy. USB drive? Good so far. Autodetect of Diamond sound card? Totally transparent, forgot I had it in the machine.

But looking at data on my second hard drive? Can't mount it. Setting my screen resolution to my LCD's native? Can't do it, broke the GUI in the process, someone here had to help me (fixed now, thanks).

I made a list of things that I do without thinking about it in XP, and I'm happy to say a lot of them can already be done, 1 day into this install. Others, well, I'll have to wait and see.

I'm finding patience is helping a lot. With XP, when I'm done with the software updates, that's it: I can install apps at will and use it to the fullest. With Ubuntu, it's not quite that easy, but it seems like most things can be done.

mssever
July 10th, 2006, 04:24 AM
I'm a long-time Linux user who prefers the command line on many cases, but trackerd does have a great point. You shouldn't have to use the command line for anything. Ubuntu is much better than many other distros, but it does need a little more work in this area. See https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuDapperWhatStillNeedsAConsole

Also, I think that those of us who are proficient in the command line should remember that many people aren't, and when we help people, we should only tell people commands to type when it's absolutely necessary.

Trackerd, welcome to Linux. I'm sorry that I've never done wireless in Linux, so I'm unable to help you there.

kris2pe
July 10th, 2006, 04:26 AM
http://www.system76.com

Support Linux vendors, and it won't be
"in the stone age" for long.

aha! But the Linux community should unite in this endevour! I don't have to time to check the net when I'm at the mall or the computer store. I don't have time to check back where this brand supports linux or not. Linux should make sure that the box carts of this devices has a seal that its supports Linux just like most pc games/hardware would put that windows logo even if it is already obvious!

trackerd
July 10th, 2006, 04:30 AM
Oops.. I did type it incorrectly. my usb netgear wireless is a WG111v2. My apologies. As for windows.. After playing with ubuntu, I'm a little....errr.. maybe more intrigued than I'm willing to admit. I guess I'll go to the bookstore tommorrow and try to find a book on it. Isnt it silly that I still dont know where to type in commands? Like I said... There are too many websites that tell you what to type.. but where to type it is the key to my problem I guess. I just downloaded a so called graphical program that is supposed to help with hooking up the usb wireless adapter, however.. I cannot get it to install on the ubuntu machine. I guess too much coffee and the long heated weekend has my brain fraying apart and I'm not thinking rationally. Also.. maybe I dont even have the partitions correct. ubuntu is in a partition of only 2.9 gigs and the clear part of the hdd is not touchable... I dont have permissions to do anything with it? hehehahahharhar:shock: Imgoingnuts...oh wait.. a nutty person cant go nuts... what now?

Adamant1988
July 10th, 2006, 04:35 AM
Also you should know before installing Linux ANYTHING that there is not guarantee of Linux compatibility with your hardware.

Just the same as upgrading to vista will no doubt leave you wanting for a new graphics card, etc., you may end up paying to replace hardware that isn't working with hardware that will (if you're serious about the switch).

I knew right after I started trying to install Linux that my mp3 player would be incompatible, so I'm simply going to get one that is. Perhaps trying a new wireless router is the solution...

Kilz
July 10th, 2006, 04:40 AM
I'm a long-time Linux user who prefers the command line on many cases, but trackerd does have a great point. You shouldn't have to use the command line for anything. Ubuntu is much better than many other distros, but it does need a little more work in this area. See https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuDapperWhatStillNeedsAConsole

Also, I think that those of us who are proficient in the command line should remember that many people aren't, and when we help people, we should only tell people commands to type when it's absolutely necessary.

Trackerd, welcome to Linux. I'm sorry that I've never done wireless in Linux, so I'm unable to help you there.
What? Not have to use the command line for anything? Even on Windows you have to use a command line for some things. Ipconfig comes to mind as at least one thing a normal user has to use the command line on Windows for.


aha! But the Linux community should unite in this endevour! I don't have to time to check the net when I'm at the mall or the computer store. I don't have time to check back where this brand supports linux or not. Linux should make sure that the box carts of this devices has a seal that its supports Linux just like most pc games/hardware would put that windows logo even if it is already obvious!
Do you really believe that its the responsibility of a Linux distro to get labels on all hardware?

trackerd
July 10th, 2006, 04:43 AM
Thank you, for the welcome to Linux, and I will learn the processes soon... However... a few minutes ago, I clicked on a link that said to download this ndisgtk program... it says it is a gtk based frontend for ndiswrapper, allowin an easy way to install windows wirless drivers. I got this error message when I went to extract it. ERROR: Dependence is not satisfiable: ndiswrapper-utils.
maybe I dont need to install it? I also tried to install a couple other things but nothing is installing on that machine.. except for ubuntu itself.. man I love that desktop with the easy and fun layout and options it has... I can see why its so popular. I think I'm falling in and out of luv with the program. Perhaps, soon I will be married to Linux..so to speak:KS

kris2pe
July 10th, 2006, 04:43 AM
Do you really believe that its the responsibility of a Linux distro to get labels on all hardware?

No personally I could careless! But they could tie up w/ hardware manufacturers to put seals on it. Its not rocket science & its not hard labor either. Its just to help consumers make better choice :)!!!

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 04:46 AM
No personally I could careless! But they could tie up w/ hardware manufacturers to put seals on it. Its not rocket science & its not hard labor either. Its just to help consumers make better choice :)!!!
That's kind of up to the hardware manufacturer, not the Linux distro. What leverage do Linux distro developers have with hardware vendors?

Kilz
July 10th, 2006, 04:47 AM
No personally I could careless! But they could tie up w/ hardware manufacturers to put seals on it. Its not rocket science & its not hard labor either. Its just to help consumers make better choice :)!!!
M$ probably pays kickbacks to hardware manufacturers. I don't think that would happen from foss.

kris2pe
July 10th, 2006, 04:49 AM
M$ probably pays kickbacks to hardware manufacturers. I don't think that would happen from foss.
Ah Too bad! Guess the uneducated & the uninitiated will remain that way :)!!!
Now if you don't mind helping me w/ my problem!!!!
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=212396

Compucore
July 10th, 2006, 04:55 AM
I never really had much of a problem with ubuntu either. It all depends as what you ahve as for hardware. On two of my five machines here. I have installed ubuntu on Both breezy and Dapper on both. My clone gaming computer I did install it once. But realized afterwards the reason why my sound card was not working on it. But you know you learn things everyday about installation of things like Ubuntu. The sound card that was in there was an old Logitech soundman 16. Which is not really compatable with linux. Due to I think the chipset that it uses on there. Learnt that the hardway. But luckily I still had a soundblaster isa card hanging around and just did another reinstall fresh format to make sure and it worked flawlessly. But learning on ubuntu is a good thing since there is something always new that you didn't know before hand.

I don't know if anyone remembers a magazine that came out a while ago but went belly up. called Maximum linux. It was a sister magazine to MaximumPC. But dealing with strictly in linux and all th different varieties of linux and software that is out there for it. And I remember reading an article there within Maximum linux. Its was about installing XXX version of linux. And it was a lady author dealing with the subject at the time. She had wrote at the time. I could be miss quoting on it as well. That it is usually a good thing to take down note on things that can go wrong and how you were able to document it and be able to fix it . Some people here had already mentioning searching the message board here which is 10000% true I had found some things that helped me out on certain problems. And maybe one or two that are still out there which probably won't get fixed until I can get further information and details on why. Have to do some more digging on my part. But still documenting on it as I go along with it. So to eliminate the posiibilities too so its not blaming one person. And at the same time being able to give a good answer and be able to post the result in case someone else may have ran into a similar situation on their computer.

Its easy for a person who doesn't know anything about linux and doesn't want to know about the back end of linux to coplain and say that it should be like windows. But there area few newbies that and I still include myself as a newbie in it. Even though I've been seasoned a little bit as to using linux.(Since hoary hedgehog 5.4) That want to know the back end and be able to learn a lot more. I don't know if if everyne else is like that.

Compucore

Tom Brokaw
July 10th, 2006, 04:56 AM
What? Not have to use the command line for anything?

That's not what was stated.


Even on Windows you have to use a command line for some things. Ipconfig comes to mind as at least one thing a normal user has to use the command line on Windows for.

Not nearly as often as one has to in Ubuntu. As for that example, I've used ipconfig exactly three times in the 4 and a half years I've had XP.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kris2pe
aha! But the Linux community should unite in this endevour! I don't have to time to check the net when I'm at the mall or the computer store. I don't have time to check back where this brand supports linux or not. Linux should make sure that the box carts of this devices has a seal that its supports Linux just like most pc games/hardware would put that windows logo even if it is already obvious!

Do you really believe that its the responsibility of a Linux distro to get labels on all hardware?

No, but across the board compatibility would sure help Linux get a lot more users. As was pointed out, however, what leverage do they have?


M$ probably pays kickbacks to hardware manufacturers.

Come on, now. Hardly likely when they've had what, 5, 6 antitrust lawsuits internationally? There's a lot to dislike about MS, but they could be a lot worse, too. I'm new here, don't make me think you're just a hater. :)

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 04:58 AM
Not nearly as often as one has to in Ubuntu. As for that example, I've used ipconfig exactly three times in the 4 and a half years I've had XP. While that may be a technically true statement, it's a bit misleading. For day-to-day use, just about everything is point-and-clickable in Ubuntu.

Oftentimes, there are functions available in the GUI that people on the forums prefer to give text-only instructions for (because of various reasons, not the least of which being that this is a text-based forum).

fluffington
July 10th, 2006, 05:04 AM
It doesnt even compare to windows in respect to allowing a beginner to install the OS by themselves and have it up and running before their grand children retire.[-X I installed it fine, it looks great, but getting internet access with wireless? pffft!!

I generally agree that Ubuntu isn't quite newbie-ready, but the installer is one area where it's got Windows beat. It is also my opinion that newbies shouldn't be installing their own operating systems, regardless of how easy the process is. If you're a newbie and want Ubuntu, get a geek to install it for you or buy it preinstalled from these guys (http://www.system76.com/).

trackerd
July 10th, 2006, 05:05 AM
Ok, so at least I was right about where I was posting my commands.. applications=accessories=terminal... guess something is wrong with my install.. I dunno.. nothing works, except for what came with the desktop installation. I'm using the latest download version of ubuntu.. anyone in sacramento? we can hookup.. be friends.. and beat each other up with our learning curve frustrations :p just kidding.. I couldnt hurt a flea..

Tom Brokaw
July 10th, 2006, 05:19 AM
While that may be a technically true statement, it's a bit misleading. For day-to-day use, just about everything is point-and-clickable in Ubuntu.

Oftentimes, there are functions available in the GUI that people on the forums prefer to give text-only instructions for (because of various reasons, not the least of which being that this is a text-based forum).

OK, fair enough - I've seen your name quite a bit here and you're obviously quite knowledgable. However, if you hadn't said that, I might still be under the impression that most of Ubuntu's functionality remains in the terminal.

I would also suggest that when a function can be done through the GUI, advice be given to do so. I think it's better to type "Click System > Administration > Synaptic Package Manager" than it is to type "type synaptic in the terminal."

While in that example the GUI method takes longer to describe, it also teaches a person how to do it through the GUI, which (I submit) makes them more likely to stick with it. Most new Ubuntu users (people on this forum) are Windows people coming over, and we're used to a GUI.

Anyway, babble babble babble. 20 different people usually means 20 different ways of doing the same thing, so as long as it gets done, I suppose. That's my nickel.

digby
July 10th, 2006, 05:24 AM
Ok, so at least I was right about where I was posting my commands.. applications=accessories=terminal... guess something is wrong with my install.. I dunno.. nothing works, except for what came with the desktop installation.If you'll post what you are trying to do and the exact error messages that occur, we'll be able to help you more. I would assume you're having troubles with permissions from a few things you have said, but without knowning more, I don't know where to start w/ the troubleshooting.

trackerd
July 10th, 2006, 05:27 AM
I have no clue where to start explaining.. it'd be better to have someone over my shoulder. anyone in sacramento? :p[-o<

jasonmatt5
July 10th, 2006, 05:27 AM
I've had huge problems with linux and wireless networking. It has led me to buy four different mini pci wlans. Once I found the correct kind of card to buy then all of my troubles (major ones with linux at least) dissappeared.

The problem is that it isnt a fault with the linux developers. Of the seven wireless nic's that I have, I can't think of one that works natively under windows. Under linux (unbuntu at least) four of these pieces work great, without having to load drivers. The same cant be said with windows.

That being said, my newest laptop which is an emachines has a broadcom wireless nic from the manufacture has the same problem that I have always had. I just cant seem to get a handle on ndiswrapper. Right now my solution is and external dlink pcmcia card. Not really ellegant but it works.

It is too bad that hardware vendors do not help us linux users out more. That would help guys like the original poster and many more. Me included. BTW other than this problem I love unbuntu!! I feel free. Damn I'm geeky!!

trackerd
July 10th, 2006, 05:31 AM
I like you for feeling geeky.. because I have the urge to feel that way too..

digby
July 10th, 2006, 05:34 AM
I have no clue where to start explaining.. it'd be better to have someone over my shoulder. anyone in sacramento? :p[-o<I'm afraid I'm on the other side if the country from you... but a good place to start is to copy and paste error messages. For instance if you were trying to run a command in the terminal, just copy and paste everything that you typed and everything that it said back to you.

Kilz
July 10th, 2006, 05:36 AM
That's not what was stated.
No you didnt, but I wasnt replying to you.
" Originally Posted by mssever
I'm a long-time Linux user who prefers the command line on many cases, but trackerd does have a great point. You shouldn't have to use the command line for anything."


Not nearly as often as one has to in Ubuntu. As for that example, I've used ipconfig exactly three times in the 4 and a half years I've had XP.
Maybe you dont have to use the command line every day. But as someone who has used Ubuntu for 4 months now. I dont use the cli unless I want to. The thing is there is a choice. On windows XP there is no real choice. Its use the gui or nothing.


No, but across the board compatibility would sure help Linux get a lot more users. As was pointed out, however, what leverage do they have? I think you have a misconception about Linux. You may want to read this page (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm), if not the whole thing then at least section 7.


Come on, now. Hardly likely when they've had what, 5, 6 antitrust lawsuits internationally? There's a lot to dislike about MS, but they could be a lot worse, too. I'm new here, don't make me think you're just a hater. :)
No I'm not a hater, I'm just someone who has seen M$ get caught, what 5 or 6 times (or more). They haven't learned their lesson yet imho. You would be amazed what you can learn about M$ dirty tricks reading sites like Groklaw. :shock:
But personally, I have left all that behind me. I'm much happier running Linux. :D The few setup problems are nothing to the constant problems Windows users face, spyware, viruses, rootkits, and worrying about gaping security holes.

Kilz
July 10th, 2006, 05:41 AM
OK, fair enough - I've seen your name quite a bit here and you're obviously quite knowledgable. However, if you hadn't said that, I might still be under the impression that most of Ubuntu's functionality remains in the terminal.

I would also suggest that when a function can be done through the GUI, advice be given to do so. I think it's better to type "Click System > Administration > Synaptic Package Manager" than it is to type "type synaptic in the terminal."

While in that example the GUI method takes longer to describe, it also teaches a person how to do it through the GUI, which (I submit) makes them more likely to stick with it. Most new Ubuntu users (people on this forum) are Windows people coming over, and we're used to a GUI.

Anyway, babble babble babble. 20 different people usually means 20 different ways of doing the same thing, so as long as it gets done, I suppose. That's my nickel.
The thing is, that there are 3 different versions. Xubuntu, Kubuntu and Ubuntu. If I tell someone how to do it by gui and someone else reads it. They may not be able to follow along.
But if they enter a text command in the terminal, most of the time it will work regardless of the version.

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 05:51 AM
Why I think the command-line is user-friendly... (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=59334).

mssever
July 10th, 2006, 06:07 AM
I myself love the command line. But what about people who only know Windows or Mac and aren't convinced that Linux is for them? A few changes, such as an option to open/edit a file as another user (gksudo) in Nautilus would go a long way; or, a decent GUI for managing services (my old Red Hat 7 system had that--and it was anything but user-friendly). Ubuntu is almost there.

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 06:08 AM
I myself love the command line. But what about people who only know Windows or Mac and aren't convinced that Linux is for them? A few changes, such as an option to open/edit a file as another user (gksudo) in Nautilus would go a long way; or, a decent GUI for managing services (my old Red Hat 7 system had that--and it was anything but user-friendly). Ubuntu is almost there.
For them, I have this page:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/permissions

It really depends on the situation.

If someone says, "I want to be able to modify some files, but they're apparently owned by root. How do I log in as root?" I give her those instructions to create
gksudo nautilus or
kdesu konqueror buttons.

If someone says, "How do I mount my Windows partitions?" Well, it can be done with the GUI, but it's a real pain to give those instructions and accompanying screenshots, so I give them this: http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/mountwindows

If someone says, "What's the setting in KDE to get a webpage to be my desktop background?" I upload a screenshot of the setting in KControl.

It all depends on the situation--what's fastest, easiest to diagnose (should something go wrong), most appropriate, and the least likely to create confusion for both the helper and the helpee.

rattlerviper
July 10th, 2006, 06:19 AM
:mad: I have a emachines, and have to say Ubuntu is much easier than Micro$oft! When I installed my wireless card and had windows xp it didn't even know the card was there. I had to install extra software to get it to understand that it was there. Then I had to setup the wireless connection. (dlink card)
When I permantly made installation of Ubuntu over the top of XP Ubuntu atoumatically knew the wifi card was there, I just had to click enable this connection and I was off surfing the internet at 11 mbps, easy as pie.
Also Linux people might be a little eccentric to windows users, as we truly LOVE our distro. You will truly recieve all the help in the world if you ask nicely on a Linux forum(especialy Ubuntu that's why I picked it). Windows forums ain't nearly so helpful, sometimes they eat there own young.
As far as hardware compatability issues, practice a little informed consumerism and make informed choices and everything will be fine.
One of the nice things about Ubuntu is getting where your goung and then admiring the final results. \
With windows I never had time to admire the final results as the stupid machine would crash at least 4 times a week requiring a complete install. A 6yo, 12yo, me, my wife, father all using the computer is tough on a computer. It is literally online 17+ hours a day. Ubuntu is up to the task! Not even a minor crash let alone a reinstall in over 3 weeks now!

Ubuntu! Ubuntu!

Tom Brokaw
July 10th, 2006, 06:21 AM
No you didnt, but I wasnt replying to you.
" Originally Posted by mssever
I'm a long-time Linux user who prefers the command line on many cases, but trackerd does have a great point. You shouldn't have to use the command line for anything."

Aha, missed that part of it. My bad. In my defense, he did say later in that post:

...we should only tell people commands to type when it's absolutely necessary.




Maybe you dont have to use the command line every day. But as someone who has used Ubuntu for 4 months now. I dont use the cli unless I want to. The thing is there is a choice. On windows XP there is no real choice. Its use the gui or nothing.

That's a good point, and one backed up by the article you linked to, in the part regarding "no permanent novices."


I think you have a misconception about Linux. You may want to read this page, if not the whole thing then at least section 7.

I disagree with some of that article, and especially section 7. If no one in the Linux community wanted new users, why is this forum here? Why have Canonical made such an effort to make Ubuntu easy to pick up for new users?

I like the author's points regarding "better" vs "copy" and I tend to agree, to a point. I think the measure of an OS (or app) is this: can it do what I want it to, and is it easy to learn? The first part is obvious. The second part is no less important, however, as difficulty learning it can easily lead to using another option.

Those are just gut reactions, haven't really grokked the whole thing yet.



No I'm not a hater, I'm just someone who has seen M$ get caught, what 5 or 6 times (or more). They haven't learned their lesson yet imho. You would be amazed what you can learn about M$ dirty tricks reading sites like Groklaw.
But personally, I have left all that behind me. I'm much happier running Linux. The few setup problems are nothing to the constant problems Windows users face, spyware, viruses, rootkits, and worrying about gaping security holes.

I hope I will have the same experience as you. I love to game, so I'll never be able to completely leave Windows out of my house, but I'm well on my way to getting all the other stuff that I do on my XP machine, done on my Ubuntu box.

Phew. Sorry to trackerd for helping hijack this thread, and I hope you get things sorted.

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 06:27 AM
Well the author of "Linux is not Windows" is talking in general about FOSS, not specifically about Ubuntu.

A lot of the stuff, particularly about the motivations of the developers, is a little off for Ubuntu and a few other "user-friendly" distros.

The developers of Ubuntu are trying to make it easier for novice users. They are not simply trying to make software better for themselves.

Think about all the changes from Hoary to Breezy to Dapper:

1. Graphical boot splash (how does this help the developers?)
2. Point-and-click .deb installation (do you really think the developers need that when they can just
sudo dpkg -i *.deb?)
3. Prettier Human Theme for Gnome (pretty doesn't add functionality)
4. A la carte menu editor included
5. A graphical frontend for deborphan
6. A point-and-click installer for the live CD

Ubuntu is targeted to end-users, not developers. It is not a hobby operating system. Mark Shuttleworth intends for it to be used in business and home settings.

rattlerviper
July 10th, 2006, 06:38 AM
Ubuntu is targeted to end-users, not developers. It is not a hobby operating system. Mark Shuttleworth intends for it to be used in business and home settings.

That's where ubuntu truly excells isn't it? Once installed it just works! No messing with antivirus, antispyware, firewall, crashes, security updates that make security worse:D

verbatim210
July 10th, 2006, 06:50 AM
Ubuntu is targeted to end-users, not developers. It is not a hobby operating system. Mark Shuttleworth intends for it to be used in business and home settings.

wait a minute, would this compromise performance and quality of the operating system by adding these uneccessary luxurious features?

what intentions do the developers have in terms of improving ubuntu as a server?

michael1977
July 10th, 2006, 07:00 AM
My two sense. I once was a beginner, and even though I managed to accidentally delete my intended windows partition, with my entire thesis on it, I never once criticized the distro. The blame lay with myself, my inexperience, my impetuousness, not ubuntu. And from that moment I choose to find out how to do everything I needed to do to get everything working. So I relied and still rely on the wonderfull and amazing people on this forum and others that have experience with linux. If your wireless doesn't work, then do what I did, search for a how to on the forums and follow it. These how tos are not written in sanscrit and most are very explicit in regards to what to type and where.

Finally I have to say that I have on many occasions done fresh installs of windows xp and xp pro and I have to say wireless does not work on a fresh install (i.e. not using a recovery disk which comes with your computer). The reason is the basic install of xp/xp pro does not have the drivers for those devices you have to install them yourself from either a driver recovery cd or from the net itself by going to each website and downloading and installing, and this also means you have to know what hardware is in your system.

and as has been stated before the avg. windows user never installs xp/xp pro it is pre-installed and the disk you get is a recovery disk not a full install os disk.

Finaly for the stone age comment, you should see xgl compiz working it makes xp look antiquated ;)

nalmeth
July 10th, 2006, 07:37 AM
@ trackerd

You should start a new thread specifically for the problems you're having, one specifically for your wireless.

I skimmed through all the posts, and couldn't tell if you figured it out.

Look through this website (http://monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing.html), it will help greatly in the start, look especially for 'enabling extra repositories'.

Then you should be able to install ndiskgtk from Synaptic, or from the command-line if you'd like.

A couple of excellent storehouses of ubuntu information:
Ubuntu Document Storage Facility (http://doc.gwos.org/)
http://wiki.ubuntu.com/
(http://doc.gwos.org/)

angkor
July 10th, 2006, 07:57 AM
Now, back to the topic at hand. Does "Linux for human beings" mean Ubuntu will always install perfectly on any equipment thrown at it or are there limits to what we can expect? What is a reasonable perspective??

Discuss.

Yesterday I installed Ubuntu on my sister-in-law's computer. Every piece of hardware in the machine was detected. I wasn't surprised to see the only thing Ubuntu couldn't handle was the e-tech usb adsl modem she got from her isp. I decided to give her my old ethernet modem/router. Not only is ubuntu able to detect it out of the box, with the built in firewall she's a lot safer on the net using both ubuntu and windows.

Xp on the same machine however, didn't have the correct usb drivers to detect the usb modem, but it worked of course with the cd her isp provided. Xp also couldn't detect the built-in sound card.

So my guess is you are right. There are limits to what we can expect. I think Ubuntu (or most other distributions out there) do a wonderful job of detecting hardware nowadays. You simply can't expect _every_ piece of hardware to be detected automagically.

fuscia
July 10th, 2006, 08:06 AM
i was just about to suggest ndisgtk (graphical version of ndiswrapper). with my netgear wireless, i had to make sure i had the correct driver (there are several on the installation disk for mine). once i had the correct driver, the process was drunken child easy.

Polygon
July 10th, 2006, 08:26 AM
my wireless card also did not work in ubuntu (a d-link G-520M, it supported the G-520, but not the weird "M" verison)

after some researching i found this site:

http://linux-wless.passys.nl/

it is a great site, and keeps an up to date list on wireless cards that are known to work in linux.

i researched and finally found my card, the Dlink G-520M and found that it was "yellow", or might work might not work.

I found a card that was "green" (a d link G-520) and after a reinstall (i decided to reinstall cause i had done so much stuff with drivers and config files) the card was automatically configured, no work at all done by me except for entering my ESSID and the WEP key.

yes not all hardware works in linux, but with a little research and maybe buying a new wireless card you should be fine.

slimdog360
July 10th, 2006, 08:27 AM
I think we have all been where you are but I can assure you that it getts much better untill the point where you think to yourself *my god windows is crap*, and linux becomes a lot easier to use.

"Once you get over a few hurdles you can climb mountains."
--slimdog360
--from the reply to 'ubunu is cute, but its still stone age'

I might have to start patenting these sayings soon.

Tom Brokaw
July 10th, 2006, 08:54 AM
I might have to start patenting these sayings soon.

Dibs on "drunken child easy" if fucsia will relinquish it...

mech7
July 10th, 2006, 09:00 AM
Perhaps not old obscure hardware.. but a ati x700 videocard? or a intel wireless card.. these are very common hardware which you would expect to be supported.

But even if it doesn't it is ok.. but the way to solve it would have to change in a more user friendly way i suppose.. I mean for a server commandlines are great but for my desktop i really don't want to sped half my time there.


You simply can't expect _every_ piece of hardware to be detected automagically.

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 09:01 AM
Actually, the way to solve it would be to buy hardware with your operating system in mind, not haphazardly buy software and then just expect it to work with your operating system.

mech7
July 10th, 2006, 09:12 AM
Yes right.. because for every software you install you are going to buy a new system right. :-s


Actually, the way to solve it would be to buy hardware with your operating system in mind, not haphazardly buy software and then just expect it to work with your operating system.

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 09:20 AM
Yes right.. because for every software you install you are going to buy a new system right. :-s
Well, if you buy your hardware with Windows in mind, you certainly can't blame Ubuntu for not detecting a wireless card.

There are several options here if this happens to you:

1. Don't switch over just yet. Wait until your computer gets "too old," and make your next system a System 76 (http://www.system76.com/), or at the very least something Ubuntu-compatible.

2. Sell your "bad" wireless card on eBay and buy one that works with the profits.

3. Just deal with it.

I don't know what you mean by "every software you install." How many operating systems are there? There's Windows, Linux, and Mac--at least to the vast majority of users out there. If you get something Ubuntu-compatible, chances are it's going to work for almost every other Linux distribution.

kabus
July 10th, 2006, 09:21 AM
Oh, how I wish we could have a whining megathread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=174298).

Soarer
July 10th, 2006, 09:56 AM
I guess it depends on your luck :)
I have installed XP many times, and have never had it find all the hardware automagically. It wouldn't detect perfectly ordinary ethernet (wired) cards, which made downloading an adventure. It often missed video & sound drivers too. My Ubuntu install was not without problems - my Compac evo won't use grub, for example, so I have to use LILO, but it was no worse than XP.
I find it surprising when XP users complain how hard Ubuntu is to install - I can only guess they have never actually had to install XP themselves.
I swopped a lot of hard disks around this weekend, using g4u to do bit copies. Copy the disks and put the new disk back into the machine and it just works. I couldn't believe it - that has never happened with XP. At the very least you have to get it re-activated - often nothing much works at all.

egon spengler
July 10th, 2006, 10:48 AM
Yes right.. because for every software you install you are going to buy a new system right. :-s

If you had an Xbox and found that gamecube games didn't work on it properly you would probably be able to put two and two together to realise that the hardware was not designed to work with that software. This is basically the same thing, you have some hardwre that was never designed to work with Linux. At this point I think you have the following options

1) realise that there really is no one to blame (I don't think that manufacturers are morally obligated to support Linux) and get on with fixing the driver issue

2) buy a new card that is known to work in both Windows and Linux

3) just stick with Windows (perhaps you might consider Linux compatibility when you next upgrade your hardware)

If you are a levelheaded guy/girl I'm sure you will agree that at this point whining on this board is a pointless task because it isn't ubuntu's fault that your hardware does not work with it, if the manufacturers don't supply drivers or even specs so that a third party can provide drivers then where do you expect these drivers to magically materialise from?

egon spengler
July 10th, 2006, 10:50 AM
What is really frustrating me after 3 weeks or so trying to get Ubuntu to even give me a basic operating package is that Live CD connects fine to the internet and the installed OS does not.

Come on chaps, it's pretty fundamental. After 3 weeks of trying, reading, appealing and not getting a solution I really am put off from taking up Ubuntu as a serious OS.

In that case don't use it. I am really unsure as to what you expect from us.

3rdalbum
July 10th, 2006, 11:25 AM
Linux should make sure that the box carts of this devices has a seal that its supports Linux just like most pc games/hardware would put that windows logo even if it is already obvious!

http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TellThemAboutIt

Bloch
July 10th, 2006, 11:51 AM
The thread seems to have abandoned Trackerd's problems.
Trackerd, you say you have only 2.9 Gigs for ubuntu. That's way too small and will cause problems very soon.

Here's my advice:
If you have a copy, install windows on the whole disk. It will blank out everything.
Then install ubuntu on a partition of 35 Gigs. (You have a 40 GB disk, right?) (The installer will ask how much space to use for ubuntu. The ubuntu install disk is designed to be easy to install on a pre-existing windows installation)

It might be a good idea to have windows on your computer, even a crippled version. This is because if you have any hardware that is faulty (camera, broadband modem, monitor) and you ring to complain, they will ask you if you tried X and Y on the control panel.

Do searches and take notes on wifi (I am assuming you can't get on the internet until you get wifi working)

Sound will definitely work eventually - I don't think it is absolutely certain that your wifi can be got to work.

Then look up Automatix and follow the instructions. This small prog installs proprietary windows codecs, realplayer, java, flash, Microsoft fonts etc etc. Get back to the forums here for more help.

richbarna
July 10th, 2006, 11:56 AM
I guess I'll go to the bookstore tommorrow and try to find a book on it.
Don't go to the bookstore, come here. This joint community has the knowledge of a million books.


Isnt it silly that I still dont know where to type in commands? No, not at all. Neither did we when we first started. But it was easily solved by doing a google search "ubuntu+type+commands".


Like I said... There are too many websites that tell you what to type.. but where to type it is the key to my problem I guess. Those other websites aren't ubuntuforums.org, psychocats.net or monkeyblog.


I just downloaded a so called graphical program that is supposed to help with hooking up the usb wireless adapter, however.. I cannot get it to install on the ubuntu machine.
Don't go downloading stuff just yet, try Synaptic first, then do a forum search "how to install anything". Always read before you do.


I guess too much coffee and the long heated weekend has my brain fraying apart and I'm not thinking rationally.
Yep, I know THAT feeling :)


Also.. maybe I dont even have the partitions correct. ubuntu is in a partition of only 2.9 gigs and the clear part of the hdd is not touchable... I dont have permissions to do anything with it?
Your first stop is :- http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/partitioning.html this is a site by aysiu, you will see a lot of people being saved by him on this forum, read the posts.

Your second stop is this forum. Please remember to title your thread with your problem (ie Partition Problem New User). Don't put (I'm a n00b please help!!), as this gives us no idea of the problem while we are searching the forums to help people.

Good Luck !!

PS Look at the links in the signatures of regular users. I have found some amazing guides in some of them.
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cyberlite
July 10th, 2006, 12:41 PM
You all know what???
I think you just whats use to give you music. :-({|= .
Stop now, if you what ubuntu stay, We are more then happy to help you. If not, go back to the OS you were using and we hope you all the best.
Linux is not your momy,its not there to hold your hand every stap of the way. You have to work at it, get to know the system and that my friend takes TIME.

Gardiner Westbound
July 10th, 2006, 01:10 PM
my wireless card also did not work in ubuntu (a d-link G-520M, it supported the G-520, but not the weird "M" verison)

after some researching i found this site:

http://linux-wless.passys.nl/

it is a great site, and keeps an up to date list on wireless cards that are known to work in linux.

i researched and finally found my card, the Dlink G-520M and found that it was "yellow", or might work might not work.

I found a card that was "green" (a d link G-520) and after a reinstall (i decided to reinstall cause i had done so much stuff with drivers and config files) the card was automatically configured, no work at all done by me except for entering my ESSID and the WEP key.

yes not all hardware works in linux, but with a little research and maybe buying a new wireless card you should be fine.
The Linksys WUSB54G v.4 is listed with a green field = supported.

fuscia
July 10th, 2006, 01:41 PM
Dibs on "drunken child easy" if fuchsia will relinquish it...

i'll thank you to use the correct mispelling of my name.

Gardiner Westbound
July 10th, 2006, 01:45 PM
Thats exactly the same card i have.
In dapper it comes with a driver caller rt2570
All you have to do is add rausb0 to you interfaces file

Howewer it is worth to note that this driver is a litlle bit unstable:/, just so your warned;)




Here is how it looks with me(iusing wep encryption)
/etc/network/interfaces
# This file describes the network interfaces available on your system
# and how to activate them. For more information, see interfaces(5).

# The loopback network interface
auto lo
iface lo inet loopback

# The primary network interface
auto eth0
iface eth0 inet dhcp

auto rausb0
iface rausb0 inet dhcp
wireless-essid linksys
wireless-key xxxxxxxxx
Thanks. Yours is by far the most compact prescription I have seen. All others required blacklasting the rt2570 driver; downloading ndiswrapper, extracting archive files, installing development tools, installing windows drivers from the Linksys WUSB54Gv.4 installation CD, etc, etc. etc.

I'll be happy to reinstall Ubuntu 6.06 and try your solution. It's less of a risk because I am confident my Norton Ghost Windows image works.

Please clarify a couple of points.

1. Exactly where and how does one type the supplied code? Are any codes or operators required? Does it help to hop on one foot while doing it (just kidding)?

2. You are inserting the wireless key, but not the network name, unless it is substituted for "Linksys". Is this right?

3. Anything else that might be helpful.

bruce89
July 10th, 2006, 01:50 PM
Dear Valued Linksys Customer,

Thank you for contacting Linksys Technical Support.

Basically, you want to know if WUSB54G v.4 will work with Linux Ubuntu 6.06.

The WUSB54G v.4 adapter is designed to work with Windows Operating systems such as Windows 98se, ME, 2000 and XP. Since your operating system is Linux, the adapter will not work. In addition, we only provide drivers for Windows platform.

I sincerely apologize for the inconvenience.

If you have any further questions, feel free to visit our knowledge base at http://www.linksys.com/kb or send us an e-mail at support@linksys.com so that we can assist you. Once you get to the Knowledge Base section, either type in the Answer ID or the keywords under Search Text and click Search.


Sincerely,


*****
Badge ID *****
Linksys - A Division of Cisco System, Inc.
Website: http://www.linksys.com
From http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1234597&postcount=23

Charming!

bruce89
July 10th, 2006, 01:54 PM
Ok there is all this advertising ubuntu for human beings.. it gives the assumption that it is easy to configure and use.. but it's not.
Are you saying that geeks are not human beings?
Also:

"Linux for Human Beings". As opposed to what, Linux for Pygmy Marmosets?

mips
July 10th, 2006, 01:58 PM
1. Exactly where and how does one type the supplied code? Are any codes or operators required? Does it help to hop on one foot while doing it (just kidding)?


The 'code' is entered into the /etc/network/interfaces file.

You can edit the file by typing sudo gedit /etc/network/interfaces from the Terminal.

fuscia
July 10th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Many will give up on Linux and never return.

that's a bit drammatic.

try ndisgtk. it's a graphical version of ndiswrapper and is in the synaptic package manager. (i think it's in the universe repository, so you might not be able to use it if wireless is the only way you can connect to the internet.) the only thing else you would need would be the correct driver file from your linksys installation cd (you can get the driver from linksys if you can't find your cd). if you try to install the wrong driver, it will laugh at you rather than causing any problems, so you can try several drivers if at first you can't tell which one is correct.

when i first installed, i had no idea what i was doing. some of the help i was being given now seems obvious, but at the time it was totally foreign. fortunately, i went ahead and asked the stupid questions and got very helpful, patient responses.

Brunellus
July 10th, 2006, 03:06 PM
If they don't return, that's their own problem. They will be compelled to return to free software of one sort or another eventually. Economics will eventually force the issue.

individual user converts (outside a hobbyist fringe) are frankly quite irrelevant to desktop adoption. What will drive things will be bottom-line balance sheets. In the meantime, I'll deal with my incremental improvements.

cstudent
July 10th, 2006, 04:11 PM
I think Ubuntu's slogan of Linux for Human Beings refers to their goal of developing an OS available in all languages and freely available to everyone.

As for Linux being easy or hard, I feel several of today's Linux distros are no harder to use or learn than Windows. I've worked with many absoluetly green users and the first time they sit down to a Windows computer they have no idea at all what to do. They have to be taught, step by step, how to use Windows and the different programs available. After some time it becomes second nature to them. I believe if I sat a new computer user in front of a Linux machine it would not take any more effort or time for me to teach them to use Linux than it does Windows. And they would be just as comfortable using it after a time as the Windows users are with that OS. If you move from one OS to another you should expect a learning curve. If you do not have the patience or desire to learn something new, you should stick to what you feel comfortable with.

Compucore
July 10th, 2006, 05:40 PM
I would agree with Cyberlite. With anything in life including windows or Ubuntu. You have to be able to want to do it yourself. It may take time to do so we are all on the same learning curve here. (More or less on different area of that learning curve.) When I installed Ubuntu here. I was not expecting it to be a out of the box deal first time around. But hey if it did that fantastic. If not well its time for the nitty gritty of things to learn on how to make it work. Which means pulling the sleaves up and just learn it and get it work. Thats my point of view with linux. There a learning experience every daywith linux. And its a good thing you know. If you don't want to then you might as well go back to the original operating system that you are using and be done with it. Beside isn't learning with ubuntu half the fun? Would anyone agree with me on that.

Compucore



You all know what???
I think you just whats use to give you music. :-({|= .
Stop now, if you what ubuntu stay, We are more then happy to help you. If not, go back to the OS you were using and we hope you all the best.
Linux is not your momy,its not there to hold your hand every stap of the way. You have to work at it, get to know the system and that my friend takes TIME.

Gardiner Westbound
July 10th, 2006, 07:01 PM
Thanks. Yours is by far the most compact prescription I have seen. All others required blacklasting the rt2570 driver; downloading ndiswrapper, extracting archive files, installing development tools, installing windows drivers from the Linksys WUSB54Gv.4 installation CD, etc, etc. etc.

I'll be happy to reinstall Ubuntu 6.06 and try your solution. It's less of a risk because I am confident my Norton Ghost Windows image works.

Please clarify a couple of points.

1. Exactly where and how does one type the supplied code? Are any codes or operators required? Does it help to hop on one foot while doing it (just kidding)?

2. You are inserting the wireless key, but not the network name, unless it is substituted for "Linksys". Is this right?

3. Anything else that might be helpful.
I took another run at Ubuntu. Here's where it stands.

1. Appended your info to the bottom of the file, saved it, and rebooted.
2. Adjusted Network Connections. It had picked up the above information. It says the interface rausbo is active. I think this is a good thing!
3. I didn't see a list of local networks like happens in Windows, but I might not be looking in the right place.
4. Tried to configure Firefox connection without success. Don't know if the problem is with above work or Firefox.

Another correspondent suggested using ndisgtk. Found a reference to it in packages but couldn't make anything happen. Had a similar experience with ndiswrapper. Downloaded both on another computer onto a floppy. Couldn't open either. Get error message with ndisgtk dependency not satisfied....

The key, I think, is getting onto the internet with Ubuntu. I will be able to download what is required and read the forums direct instead of running back and forth to an alternate computer and downloading things onto floppys. For whaever reason Ubuntu doesn't read some CDs.

Thanks a lot.

luca.b
July 10th, 2006, 07:23 PM
floppy. Couldn't open either. Get error message with ndisgtk dependency not satisfied....

That is because usually packages, in order to reduce bloat, have a set of dependencies, that is, other programs (or files, or libraries) in order to make them work. So when you try to install the program, the installation routine fails because it can't find the other dependencies. Normally they're automatically downloaded, but in this case, of course, they can't because the network connection is missing.

If you installed Ubuntu off the CD, part of those dependencies may be there. Note down what are the "dependencies not satisfied" (the program should give you a list) and try to see if those are up in the software manager (that is, search for them, I believe there should be a search function). If so, install them first, then install the program that was giving you "dependency not satisfied". In that case it should work.

Brunellus
July 10th, 2006, 07:33 PM
I took another run at Ubuntu. Here's where it stands.

1. Appended your info to the bottom of the file, saved it, and rebooted.
2. Adjusted Network Connections. It had picked up the above information. It says the interface rausbo is active. I think this is a good thing!
3. I didn't see a list of local networks like happens in Windows, but I might not be looking in the right place.
4. Tried to configure Firefox connection without success. Don't know if the problem is with above work or Firefox.

Another correspondent suggested using ndisgtk. Found a reference to it in packages but couldn't make anything happen. Had a similar experience with ndiswrapper. Downloaded both on another computer onto a floppy. Couldn't open either. Get error message with ndisgtk dependency not satisfied....

The key, I think, is getting onto the internet with Ubuntu. I will be able to download what is required and read the forums direct instead of running back and forth to an alternate computer and downloading things onto floppys. For whaever reason Ubuntu doesn't read some CDs.

Thanks a lot.
ndiswrapper is on the install CD...has been since breezy, at least.

Stick your CD in, and apt-get install ndiswrapper it and you'll have it. ndisgtk is probably not there, but once you have proper ndiswrapper, the old ndiswrapper (no GUI) instructions will apply.

if there's any way you can connect other than by wlan to do this (i.e. via ethernet!) things could be very quick.

Kilz
July 10th, 2006, 08:49 PM
Well the author of "Linux is not Windows" is talking in general about FOSS, not specifically about Ubuntu.

A lot of the stuff, particularly about the motivations of the developers, is a little off for Ubuntu and a few other "user-friendly" distros.

The developers of Ubuntu are trying to make it easier for novice users. They are not simply trying to make software better for themselves.

Think about all the changes from Hoary to Breezy to Dapper:

1. Graphical boot splash (how does this help the developers?)
2. Point-and-click .deb installation (do you really think the developers need that when they can just
sudo dpkg -i *.deb?)
3. Prettier Human Theme for Gnome (pretty doesn't add functionality)
4. A la carte menu editor included
5. A graphical frontend for deborphan
6. A point-and-click installer for the live CD

Ubuntu is targeted to end-users, not developers. It is not a hobby operating system. Mark Shuttleworth intends for it to be used in business and home settings.

But I dont think that Ubuntu's goal is to make everything 100% gui. That Ubuntu cares if it looses a few users who want to make linux a Windows clone. That if they dont get exactly what they want they will stomp their feet and hold their breath untill its done.
In other words, Linux is out to make the best OS for its users/community. You cant please 100% of the people 100% percent of the time. If you like Linux/Ubuntu fine, use it, but no one is going to lose sleep over the rantings of a few people who want a windows clone.

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 08:55 PM
I was responding particularly to the "Linux is not Windows" article, which seems to indicate that Linux in general cares nothing for what the end-user wants--only what makes the applications "better" in some vague sense, usually to the application developer.

I didn't say anything about making Ubuntu Windows-like, did I?

My only point was that Ubuntu does care about the end-user, and it's making more and more tasks GUI-accessible in addition to being CLI-accessible, and it's not for the purpose of making the application "better" for the developer. It's for the end-user.

May I remind you what Mark Shuttleworth calls "Bug #1"? (https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1)
Microsoft has a majority market share in the new desktop PC marketplace. This is a bug, which Ubuntu is designed to fix.

Microsoft has a majority market share | Non-free software is holding back innovation in the IT industry, restricting access to IT to a small part of the world's population and limiting the ability of software developers to reach their full potential, globally. This bug is widely evident in the PC industry.
Steps to repeat:
1. Visit a local PC store.
What happens:
2. Observe that a majority of PC's for sale have non-free software pre-installed
3. Observe very few PC's with Ubuntu and free software pre-installed
What should happen:
1. A majority of the PC's for sale should include only free software like Ubuntu
2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and benefits would be apparent and known by all.
3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.

Gardiner Westbound
July 10th, 2006, 09:28 PM
ndiswrapper is on the install CD...has been since breezy, at least.

Stick your CD in, and apt-get install ndiswrapper it and you'll have it. ndisgtk is probably not there, but once you have proper ndiswrapper, the old ndiswrapper (no GUI) instructions will apply.

if there's any way you can connect other than by wlan to do this (i.e. via ethernet!) things could be very quick.

Thanks for your offer. There is no practical way for me to connect by ethernet.

I may have inadvertently muddied the water mentioning ndisgtk and ndiswrapper.

According to Teroedni, who got his Linksys WUSB54Gv4 Wireless-G USB Network Adapter to work, neither ndisgtk and ndiswrapper are required. So I beavered away with his suggestion. Unfortunately, unless I inadvertently missed a step, his solution isn't working for me.

If I don't make headway I'll be back.

Antoine.L
July 10th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Hey there.

I don't know of an easy way to browse for networks on Ubuntu, but if you already know the name of the network you want to connect to, you can put that in the interfaces file.

In the example file used above, the name (or essid) used is 'linksys'. If you change that to whatever your network is, it might help.

Kilz
July 10th, 2006, 10:17 PM
I was responding particularly to the "Linux is not Windows" article, which seems to indicate that Linux in general cares nothing for what the end-user wants--only what makes the applications "better" in some vague sense, usually to the application developer.

I didn't say anything about making Ubuntu Windows-like, did I?

My only point was that Ubuntu does care about the end-user, and it's making more and more tasks GUI-accessible in addition to being CLI-accessible, and it's not for the purpose of making the application "better" for the developer. It's for the end-user.

May I remind you what Mark Shuttleworth calls "Bug #1"? (https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1)
Maybe we are seeing diffrent parts of the same page.
While Ubuntu has developers, they are not the only ones doing the developing. Linux is made up of tens of thousands of packages. I dont think the Ubuntu developers could do what they do if they didnt rely on outside development.
While it may be the Ubuntu's goal of making the Ubuntu used on every computer. Ubuntu doesnt develop all the packages included in the Ubuntu. While Ubuntu's goal is to make Ubuntu more user friendly. Even you dont sugest ridding Ubuntu users of every need to access the cli(aka making linux into windows) is Ubuntu's goal.

aysiu
July 10th, 2006, 10:25 PM
I believe that ideally every task should be able to be accomplished in both the GUI and the CLI. It leaves the user choice--if she wants to use the GUI, she can use it. If she prefers the CLI, she can use that. That does not make Ubuntu into Windows by a long shot.

What distinguishes Ubuntu from Windows is the philosophy behind it--humanity toward others--and the commitment to free and open source software. It has nothing to do with making users use the command-line instead of the GUI.

Kilz
July 10th, 2006, 11:50 PM
I believe that ideally every task should be able to be accomplished in both the GUI and the CLI. It leaves the user choice--if she wants to use the GUI, she can use it. If she prefers the CLI, she can use that. That does not make Ubuntu into Windows by a long shot.

What distinguishes Ubuntu from Windows is the philosophy behind it--humanity toward others--and the commitment to free and open source software. It has nothing to do with making users use the command-line instead of the GUI.
Yes that is the way most people who like Ubuntu think. But imho people who are just switching to Ubuntu from Windows. The ones that post rants. Want everything to be gui. Because at first, all those people want is Ubuntu to be more windows like so they can figure it out.

cjm5229
July 11th, 2006, 12:42 AM
I have a feeling Trackerd is one of those types that likes to start flame wars and then move on. He never gave a specific problem he was having, He made a couple of general complaints, made one off color comment in another thread, and hasn't been back. I believe the reason he thinks Ubuntu is stoneage, is that he is from that era and can only relate to stoneage architecture like WinXP. I have a dual boot system with WinVista installed, after about two weeks of trying to get everything up and working, searching the internet for virus, Err, Software I mean, and trying to get drivers for my Epson Printer, Actually the drivers for the printer installed "out of the box" but I still can't make the scanner work. The software that came with the printer will not install in Vista, it crashes the cd player. and I can't find the one that would work. Ubuntu 6.06 LTS is light years ahead of Vista. Of course a year ago, I couldn't figure out how to make Ubuntu work either.:D

aysiu
July 11th, 2006, 12:47 AM
Of course a year ago, I couldn't figure out how to make Ubuntu work either.:D For me, a year and two months. A lot of times people like to make it sound as if you have to be some kind of computer expert to figure out Ubuntu. It took me twenty years to figure out Windows/DOS, and it took me about two months to figure out Ubuntu.

Go figure.

blastus
July 11th, 2006, 12:48 AM
I really expected alot more out of a linux based system. It doesnt even compare to windows in respect to allowing a beginner to install the OS by themselves and have it up and running before their grand children retire.

Those who know how to install Windows are not beginners. If anything, they are experts as they need to understand the basic concepts of BIOS boot, partitions, file systems, formatting, mounting, TCP/IP networking, POP3/IMAP/SMTP configuration, what drivers are, and what drivers they need for their hardware, and how to install them etc...


Why, if there are millions of brilliant linux people out there, why isnt there locations or people to have install it for you? I know.. I know....... cry cry cry

Because Windows is installed on over 90% of desktops. There is little market for supporting Linux on the desktop which is why you can't take your PC with Linux on it to your local computer store. However, as more and more people use Linux, the demand for Linux support and OEMs to pre-install Linux will grow. This is like a chicken and egg scenario where you can't have one without the other.

Albi
July 11th, 2006, 12:51 AM
You can get more user friendly OS's like Linspire (there's a shop a kilometer away from my house that sells pc's with linspire :O), but I never liked that OS from the live CD. It feels like it's spoon feeding you everything, and you have to go into the "advanced" section of every configuration to do anything useful, and you can't customize it easily.

aysiu
July 11th, 2006, 12:56 AM
Freespire (http://www.freespire.org/) sounds interesting. One of the things that really turned me off to Linspire was the need for CNR. Yes, there were weird hacks to get apt-get working in Linspire, but they were never fully functional.

Apparently, Freespire will have the option to use either CNR or apt-get.

RAV TUX
July 11th, 2006, 12:57 AM
I really expected alot more out of a linux based system. It doesnt even compare to windows in respect to allowing a beginner to install the OS by themselves and have it up and running before their grand children retire.[-X I installed it fine, it looks great, but getting internet access with wireless? pffft!!
One more thing.... as a beginner.. and trying to uderstand this system, I see on every website I go to, what we need to type into some unknown directory...what we need is.. a big fat door, with a sign that says... "Type those commands in here". I have no clue where to go...

Why, if there are millions of brilliant linux people out there, why isnt there locations or people to have install it for you? I know.. I know....... cry cry cry:-({|=

ubunu may not be good but you should give ubuntu a try or perhaps even Rabbix.

Compucore
July 11th, 2006, 01:13 AM
I haven't seen a single friend install a version of windows when they bought a brand new computer and I agree with Kilz. Most of todayus computers windows is already there with a hidden partition of the restore disk on the computer.. Like a few others here I've installed so many times windows that I could do it in my sleep and not know about it until the next morning. And then with the updates. Scarifice a little blood, sweat, and tears of learning something new here with linux. How else are you going to get things done right. Not to put anyone down here. But come I am sure you were doing the same thing when you were learning the windows envroment as well. I can only speak for myself here Working within a Windows or any gui interface is a lap of luxury here. Unix has been around longer than MS & windows and linux has taken what is great from the unix envirnment.

Compucore


A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a74/tghc/ubuntu/Screenshot.png
You are the second person with 1 post, the complaint post , to post today. 3 times would be astronomical.
First off Windows isn't easier to install. Few people install windows. They get it preloaded. If they have to reinstall , its a restore disk with an image of the perinstall environment.

Adamant1988
July 11th, 2006, 01:22 AM
Ubuntu is Ubuntu, it's FREE. First off when you get something for free you shouldn't complain. Also ubuntu is a great linux enviroment, it doesn't meet EVERYONEs needs out of the box, and it won't for a very long time because of legal issues and ethical issues. That doesn't make it less of a good distro though.