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RavenOfOdin
May 21st, 2006, 05:50 AM
Would someone please ban this person!! If I had the power I would.




NOW LEAVE. YOU DISRESPECTFULL LITTLE PUNK. YOUR LUCKY I'M ONLY NEXT TO YOU IN THE VIRTUAL WORLD. IF I EVER SAW YOU DISRESPECT AYSIU IN PERSON I'D BEAT YOU UNTIL THE COPS CAME!!!!!


:rolleyes:

Those two quotes speak ALL for themselves!

kriding
May 21st, 2006, 05:15 PM
when all is said and done, both Linux and Windows have one major thing in common...both OS's are expected to work on a large number of hardware configurations..a daunting task, even for the most talented programmers. If you're afteran OS that is stable, buy a Mac!

I moved over to Linux a few days ago (I tried a few weeks back, but lasted all of a day) and my system is fully Linux now and I havn't looked back. I guess I was lucky as all I needed was my ATI graphics card installing, a quick question here and it was installed in under 5 minutes, i'm also having problems with my network now (not when i first installed) but no doubt that will be resolved soon enough.

My reasons for choosing Linux is because I wanted a new challenge, and to learn some new abilities. I would say I come under the group of 'power users' in windows, but aside from it's driver support (and lets face it, most vendors will cater for windows because it is more widely used in the home) I found it limited, I've hacked the registry to death, fooled about with the security and hardened it against most attacks...but that effort was only effective for as long as it took someone to write a new malicious programme. The only thing I found windows good for was it's gaming capabilities, since I'm not much of a gamer these days, Linux suiots my needs better, and because of it's hieghtened security (compared to windows) and it's open source, I hope to be able to take advantage of this in the future..but as stated..you have to crawl before you can walk,so I'm a little way off just yet:)

Biltong (Dee)
May 21st, 2006, 05:30 PM
Microsoft is like a drug. It's easy to get and easy to use.
To completely switch to Linux (as I did) it is literally going "cold turkey". It's hard, but like drug withdrawl it gets easier.
The No1 thing to remember is to be patient. Ease of use will come in time. Rome was not built in a day.

ComplexNumber
May 21st, 2006, 05:39 PM
Microsoft is like a drug. It's easy to get and easy to use.
and linux is like a medicine - it sometimes leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, but people don't mind because they know it does you good.

n3tfury
May 21st, 2006, 05:39 PM
it boils down to this: there is, and never will be, ONE operating system for everyone. plain and simple.

Kimm
May 21st, 2006, 08:21 PM
No one using x likes to mention the huge amount of time spent on packages, compiling source, using the terminal and fixing little things that work already in windows.


Those things work in windows because someone spent huge amount of time packaging, compiling source and using the terminal :)

Besides, installing an OS is different for everybody, when I put Ubuntu on this computer, all I "need" to do is install proprietary NVIDIA drivers to get 3D-Acceleration (I dont realy need to to this... only if I want 3D games)

When I install Windows on this computer I have to spend ours configing it... out of the box windows recoqnices... NOTHING!
I have to install drivers for the Graphics card, the sound card, the networks card and so on. After that I have to run Windows Update to install a myriad of updates and then go and download my favorite AntiVirus program (Its free: AntiVir) and get a firewall...

Linux is not hard to set up, it is Different!
Its not much harder to open a text file and change one line in it, than it is to click "Next... Next... Next" like some zombie (this is if you have guidance).

BoyOfDestiny
May 21st, 2006, 08:48 PM
it boils down to this: there is, and never will be, ONE operating system for everyone. plain and simple.

Why not? Between the different DE's, embedded systems, Linux is flexible enough to be anything to anyone... Whether it be server, desktop, mobile devices, super computers, etc... And no I'm not saying it's enough for everyone, but I'm saying it has the potential.

n3tfury
May 21st, 2006, 08:52 PM
every OS theoretically has that potential, but it's wishful thinking.

gmcle454
May 23rd, 2006, 03:48 AM
"Most Consumers" don't want to think at all (many think that the IE logo actually is that inter-webby-thingy), learn anything new and much less reasonably educate themselves. I'd have to agree, "most consumers" are lazy and unwilling to try something new.

From a realistic point of view, Linux finally looks like it is ready for the real-world, joe-user. The release of Vista (with it's amazing hardware requirments) will probably encourage a lot of people to try Linux. Ubuntu, RedHat, Fedora, Debian, and Suse all are realitively easy to install out-of-the-box. The easier it is to get a system running, the easier it is for a new user to adopt it.

My only real concern is hardware support. Too many manufacturers are slow to issue Linux drivers for thier hardware. Two years ago, ATI virtually ignored the Linux community, but now they have come arround--in time, more manufacturers will do the same.

In my opinion, the most important part of joe-user adopting Linux will be how he gets treated in forums like this one. People here seem to enjoy helping at all levels, this is great to see. In he Gentoo forums, the members love to show off their knowledge and will jump through fire hoops to help each other out--although very helpful, a noob can get lost easily. In other forums, I've seen poor noobs get flamed for asking basic questions or get completely ignored--obviously this doesn't increase joe-user's willingness to continue trying out Linux. A good forum community is key to Linux adoption.

People Helping People - look at the Ubuntu logo, that's the perfect model for a Linux forum community. And I'm glad to see that this forum is full of members who understand that and genuinely want and try to help each other. Keep it up!

aysiu
May 23rd, 2006, 03:55 AM
The release of Vista (with it's amazing hardware requirments) will probably encourage a lot of people to try Linux. It would be nice to think so, but they will probably just stick with XP until their XP computer gets "too old" or "too slow," and they buy a new computer... and guess which version of Windows will come preinstalled on that new computer...

"Most consumers" I know don't install operating systems. It doesn't matter if it's Windows, Linux, or even Mac (which is a cinch to install, since the hardware is made for it and vice versa).

Wallakoala
May 23rd, 2006, 04:00 AM
I love the arguement that Windows "works". No it doesn't! What do you get out of a $200 Windows install?
*Wordpad, a "word processor" with zero features.
*MediaPlayer - A bloated, slow, unfriendly player that sucks resources like crazy and hides any useful features it may have behind a "purty" interface.
*An Image Viewer that is nearly useless and allows nearly no actual editing of photos.
*A file system that requires near constant maintainance to keep operating.
*A slow, out of date file search system.
*A non-standards-compliant web browser with nearly zero features and many security flaws.
*A buggy, insecure Email program.
*A lousy movie editor, a lousy Paint program, a calculator that (amazingly) actually works and some system tools that a modern OS shouldn't even need (Defrag, anyone?)

Quoted for truth
This is EXACTLY how I feel. I always thought it was crazy that you pay $200 for windows, and once you have it installed, you basically can't do anything.

fuscia
May 23rd, 2006, 04:00 AM
i just ordered a laptop from system76 (thanks to aysiu's suggestion). it comes with ubuntu installed with customer support and all that. i expect it will all work out of the box. how can that suck?

Lanseta
May 23rd, 2006, 04:09 AM
Playstation3 is coming out with Linux pre-installed on its HardDisk drive.

BMW sedan will use embedded linux on its iDrive replacing MS Windows CE os.

gmcle454
May 23rd, 2006, 04:21 AM
It would be nice to think so, but they will probably just stick with XP until their XP computer gets "too old" or "too slow," and they buy a new computer... and guess which version of Windows will come preinstalled on that new computer...

"Most consumers" I know don't install operating systems. It doesn't matter if it's Windows, Linux, or even Mac (which is a cinch to install, since the hardware is made for it and vice versa).

True. Sad but true.

ubnoobie
May 23rd, 2006, 05:37 AM
i'll go along with the general "gist" of the original post. dapper isn't.. well, "dapper".. it's more "blah" and "ick" than anything else, and doesn't "just work".

it totally lacks the promised spit shine & polish that's been promised; and with just 10 days to go before scheduled release, there is far too much to be done to get everything working. it will either be released with problems or be delayed (again), both of which are too microsoft-esque for me.

considering dapper+1 is going to be a more 'experimental' release, we get to wait until next summer for the next (and hopefully at least as solid as breezy) 'normal' release...

sarge, or even etch, is a more viable candidate for a "long term" desktop or server than dapper.. for ubuntu, breezy should be extended to "long term support" instead of dapper.

i was really counting on dapper, but am very disappointed with what i've seen so far. unless a miracle happens between now and release, i'll be sticking with sarge for servers and breezy or suse (which makes a very 'dapper' desktop) for desktops, and waiting to see what next summer's "dapper+2" is like.

Iandefor
May 23rd, 2006, 06:58 AM
i'll go along with the general "gist" of the original post. dapper isn't.. well, "dapper".. it's more "blah" and "ick" than anything else, and doesn't "just work".

it totally lacks the promised spit shine & polish that's been promised; and with just 10 days to go before scheduled release, there is far too much to be done to get everything working. it will either be released with problems or be delayed (again), both of which are too microsoft-esque for me.

considering dapper+1 is going to be a more 'experimental' release, we get to wait until next summer for the next (and hopefully at least as solid as breezy) 'normal' release...

sarge, or even etch, is a more viable candidate for a "long term" desktop or server than dapper.. for ubuntu, breezy should be extended to "long term support" instead of dapper.

i was really counting on dapper, but am very disappointed with what i've seen so far. unless a miracle happens between now and release, i'll be sticking with sarge for servers and breezy or suse (which makes a very 'dapper' desktop) for desktops, and waiting to see what next summer's "dapper+2" is like. Dapper works like a champ for me. What about it do you think is unsatisfactory?

And it would be a really bad idea to let Breezy be the long-term solution. 1-year intervals between "stable" releases is in itself a bad idea, but letting a piece of software that's already approaching obsolescence be the long-term supported release? Believe it or not, Dapper has fixed a lot of problems present in Breezy, and if we're stuck with one or the other for the next year, I'd rather use Dapper than Breezy.

prizrak
May 23rd, 2006, 09:58 AM
One thing I'm confused about.
Since when does the OS have ANYTHING to do with hardware at all? The OS doesn't talk to hardware, in fact it has something that makes sure that it doesn't make any difference to the OS what hardware is installed. The ONLY thing that talks to hardware directly are the drivers for the said hardware. The DRIVERS for the hardware are provided by the manufacturer that creates said hardware. No OS I know off (cept maybe some embedded stuff) supports ANY hardware. It is meaningless to talk about Linux, Windows, OS X hardware support as you are looking at it in the wrong way. The question is not whether an OS supports your hardware the question is whether your hardware supports your OS.

With that said, there is nothing Ubuntu (any Linux) can do to improve hardware detection and installation. Some hardware will work because it is based on a certain reference design that has drivers for your OS. Some will not work because it has no drivers for your OS. Some hardware can be reverse engineered and a driver created to work with your OS. However in that case alot of special functionality will be lost due to the fact that OEM's tend to use alot of tricks to get those extra features that are just impossible to replicate through reverse engineering (that's what makes them different after all).

Whining about hardware not working with Linux gets you nowhere, it is the manufacturer's job to provide you a driver not Torvald's or Shuttleworth's or whoever else's. As it stands now Windows is the predominant consumer OS, which means any consumer hardware will be designed to work with the said OS and MIGHT work with others if the manufacturer cares enough. Just because your wireless doesn't work it doesn't mean Ubuntu is not ready for Edgy Eft. Canonical cannot possibly reverse engineer everything and alot of OEM's go to great lengths to make reverse engineering as difficult as possible.

Also I think many here missed the point of Edgy. Breezy itself is a good OS and can be easily used in a production environment, I have been running Ubuntu since the first version (was it Warty?) and it's been doing everything I want it to with little problem. Breezy is better and runs quite well (if not as quick as Warty did). Now Dapper fixes alot of Breezy issues, includes a few new features and adds overall polish to the OS. Mr. Shuttleworth believes it to be a good enough OS to be run in a production environment (be it home users or organizations), hence he decided to let the developers unwind and play around a little bit. Edgy Eft is taking a risk, it will have alot of cutting edge stuff (not just XGL, would everybody frigging stop bringing it up like it's the only new thing comming out) including network-manager and possibly the new wireless framework that is being proposed now. It doesn't mean that it's gonna suck or be buggy, it just means that it MAY be a little bit on the play around side and that not all of this cutting edge technology will work well (some of it may be in beta and stuff).

Regarding Shuttleworth's e-mail, when he said that if people need a super stable OS they should keep Dapper, he simply meant that if you need stability over cutting edge technology Dapper will be the way to go. It is akin to Debian stable, that thing is pretty old but you would be hard pressed to find a more stable Linux distribution for servers. It doesn't mean that Eft will be released full of bugs, it simply means that it will not do anything that Dapper won't when it comes to things that "regular" users or business do.

Edgy plans also mean that Ubuntu hit a major milestone, it means that it has produced an OS that will fit most users needs w/o major issues. Of course there are some issues but not all issues are under Ubuntu control and there are certain trade offs that need to be made. GNOME printing dialog is one of such trade offs, Canonical will not be holding up a release because of one little program. Especially not when there are 3rd party solutions.

prizrak
May 23rd, 2006, 10:00 AM
GRRR, double posted sorry.

aysiu
May 23rd, 2006, 04:05 PM
It is meaningless to talk about Linux, Windows, OS X hardware support as you are looking at it in the wrong way. The question is not whether an OS supports your hardware the question is whether your hardware supports your OS. Well said. After all, no one blames OS X for installing to only Apple computers...

Why won't Mac OS X install to my Dell computer? Lousy Mac piece of crap... What bad hardware support it has...

prizrak
May 23rd, 2006, 10:21 PM
Just tried Dapper Flight 7 LiveCD and I must say I agree with Shuttleworth. This OS is stable and featureful enough for the Ubuntu team to play around with something and have people use it for a year.
The CD was quite fast (considering it's a LiveCD), it recognized ALL of my hardware and didn't ask me to configure anything. Even my wi-fi got recognized and it auto connected to the first avaiable network (wasn't mine since I got WPA) but it did connect to A network on boot, somethin Breezy never did. I'm kind of surprised it didn't get Gaim 2.0 but I haven't followed the development closely enough to know if it's still beta or what.

skippy81
May 23rd, 2006, 11:22 PM
So far I have had nothing but absolute stability with dapper. I havn't crashed once, dispite my habits of having scores of windows open at once. In fact since I upgraded from breezy to dapper I havn't touched Windows XP once, I genuinely think Dapper is a more efficient and stable OS.

Once XGL/Compiz is stabilized I would imagine that Dapper will give Vista a real run for its money, in fact Vista's launch will be a big opportunity to spread linux since many people will want the 'trendy' composite gfx look without having to spend $$$$$. From what I've read, the basic and starter versions of Vista won't even have the OS-X *cough cough* Aero theme enabled on them so Dapper will potentially be better looking :)

Personally though i'm not a fan of any form of CPU or RAM intensive eye-candy, what I like is stability and snappiness and Dapper really performs in these areas. I personally find the slightly slower boot time of linux irrelevant, since like many users I keep my PC on 24/7.

crichell
May 24th, 2006, 02:13 AM
i just ordered a laptop from system76 (thanks to aysiu's suggestion). it comes with ubuntu installed with customer support and all that. i expect it will all work out of the box. how can that suck?

Thanks for ordering from us Fusia - let us know your a forum member - we offer $25 of all laptops for forum members.

Just send us an email - sales (at) system76.com with your order number and forum user name.

polo_step
May 24th, 2006, 02:42 AM
"Most Consumers" don't want to think at all (many think that the IE logo actually is that inter-webby-thingy), learn anything new and much less reasonably educate themselves. I'd have to agree, "most consumers" are lazy and unwilling to try something new.

Some years ago, I was working at one of Intel's research and development "campuses" (FM). These were the people who designed the computer devices the world uses today.

I'd be talking to people and whenever I brought desktop Linux up, the reaction was invariably, "Oh, yeah...um...interesting OS, but I just don't have time to mess with it."

I heard variations of that line a thousand times, I bet.

It was just amazing to me how universally dismissive they were of end-user desktop Linux as anything but an eccentric waste of valuable time. The whole time I was there, I only met one person who used it and I swear if you'd had a twenty-man lineup and asked anyone to "pick out the Linux user," he'd stick out like a sore thumb. Terminal weirdo. :rolleyes:

Linux is great for a lot of things higher up on the food chain, but it has some mighty disadvantages for people who want a do-everything home computer with a dozen peripheral whatnots plugged into it that are in a constant state of change and upgrade.

I just bought a whole wad of neat stuff at Fry's (the computer-geek mega-store chain here in California's hi-tech triangle) last week -- cameras, TV dongles, PCI accessories -- and I don't think a single thing will work on my Ubuntu box...at least not without weeks of fiddling around just to get very limited functionality.

As they said, "I just don't have time to mess with it." :(

aysiu
May 24th, 2006, 03:31 AM
Thanks for ordering from us Fusia - let us know your a forum member - we offer $25 of all laptops for forum members.

Just send us an email - sales (at) system76.com with your order number and forum user name. How long does this promotion last?

DJiNN
May 24th, 2006, 09:44 AM
Linux is great for a lot of things higher up on the food chain, but it has some mighty disadvantages for people who want a do-everything home computer with a dozen peripheral whatnots plugged into it that are in a constant state of change and upgrade.

I just bought a whole wad of neat stuff at Fry's (the computer-geek mega-store chain here in California's hi-tech triangle) last week -- cameras, TV dongles, PCI accessories -- and I don't think a single thing will work on my Ubuntu box...at least not without weeks of fiddling around just to get very limited functionality.

As they said, "I just don't have time to mess with it." :(


I agree with that! I use Kubuntu (Dapper - Super solid!) everyday as my main OS, and have just built a second machine (Old parts) & now have Xubuntu on it & it's running fantastically well! But i pretty much use old stuff & "Nothing" esoteric or kind of new, so Linux doesn't really have a hard time with my systems.

Having said that, even i have found a few things that are just such a pain to get running under Linux, that just "Work" for me in XP. As a user "And" a Geek who likes to learn, it's no biggie most of the time, but there are limits as to how much time one will spend with something in order to get some level of functionality out of it. :)

The one thing i find i am doing more of now is "Learning". (Which is a VERY good thing) I used to spend a lot of time "Updating, repairing & scanning) in XP.... now i don't have to do any of that, and spend more time actually "Using" my machines, and learning about the OS (Because i choose to) at the same time. That's so kool! :D

One day soon (& it's not that far away) Linux as a whole, and Ubuntu as a distro, will be pretty much able to run almost anything thrown at it..... Linux has come such a long way in such a small amount of time, and just keeps getting better & better. Yeah, it's gonna be a while before it's ready a "Mainstream Takeup" but that day is looming. :)


DJiNN

Lanseta
May 24th, 2006, 01:58 PM
Some years ago, I was working at one of Intel's research and development "campuses" (FM). These were the people who designed the computer devices the world uses today.

I'd be talking to people and whenever I brought desktop Linux up, the reaction was invariably, "Oh, yeah...um...interesting OS, but I just don't have time to mess with it."

I heard variations of that line a thousand times, I bet.

It was just amazing to me how universally dismissive they were of end-user desktop Linux as anything but an eccentric waste of valuable time. The whole time I was there, I only met one person who used it and I swear if you'd had a twenty-man lineup and asked anyone to "pick out the Linux user," he'd stick out like a sore thumb. Terminal weirdo.

Linux is great for a lot of things higher up on the food chain, but it has some mighty disadvantages for people who want a do-everything home computer with a dozen peripheral whatnots plugged into it that are in a constant state of change and upgrade.

I just bought a whole wad of neat stuff at Fry's (the computer-geek mega-store chain here in California's hi-tech triangle) last week -- cameras, TV dongles, PCI accessories -- and I don't think a single thing will work on my Ubuntu box...at least not without weeks of fiddling around just to get very limited functionality.

As they said, "I just don't have time to mess with it."

If we have seen the box of the hardwares we bought it says there "Requirements: Windows2000 or higher".

Solution: more linux users = more market, then so hardware manufacturers will think on making hardwares compatible or for linux. Yes one day we will be there, and im willing to sacrifice my time now for a better tomorrow. Use linux and be counted! one day you will tell your sons... we fought for freedom(just being exaggerated there)

I pretty much view linux similar to alternative fuels, high cost of fuel forces us to look for alternative. Its a sacrifice and pain at first but its an investment for tomorrow.

matoxxx
May 24th, 2006, 07:30 PM
My oppinion about whole "linux thing could be more user friendly"
I just started linux few moths ago as a live distro when my harddisk died, and i started to get addicted ;) .
My lineage of distros were DSL, Slax, Mandriva and finaly Ubuntu. As far I liked Xfce, was inovative to me, Mandrivas KDE for me sucked. The Gnome is I thing the most user friendly desktop, but "how many people you got so many tastes they have".
Back to the topic. As for everybody who is in linux a newbe, and had no prewiev programming skills, its hard to get "something - i mean hardware" working even when the solution is written in forums. Too many ways to one goal and many times howto's get off topic.
I would suggest,
but i think it would need some time and finally people and cash,
to build some sort of database, which would include rock solid howto's for the hardware installation in form of code, that could be pasted to terminal and executed, cause sometimes the search thru 50 page forum topic to finnaly find suitable solution could be really annoying. And the user when he has to just copy and paste text to get something working would be more satified.

polo_step
May 24th, 2006, 07:31 PM
Having said that, even i have found a few things that are just such a pain to get running under Linux, that just "Work" for me in XP. As a user "And" a Geek who likes to learn, it's no biggie most of the time, but there are limits as to how much time one will spend with something in order to get some level of functionality out of it. :)
As you move on in life, though, the time and energy you have for that gets taken over by more important stuff, like job & family (I have neither) or home repair (I have LOTS :( ) or maybe just the stuff you have to DO with your computer. Actual work. Or more rewarding hobbies, like my titanic struggle to get my semi-pro recording studio figured out. You'll find, as I have, that stuff you need to learn must be presented to you in an efficient, easily assimilable form, such as a well-written Wiki, and not through two weeks of blathering, tangential discussion on three different fora as a dozen or so people of various levels of ignorance try to reinvent the wheel between bouts of dumb jokes. This is the reason for my choice of Ubuntu as my experimental Linux -- this is a smart, relatively well-disciplined forum with a lot of people who have tried to organize the knowledge base for maximum efficiency here and elsewhere.

There's also just a basic difference in personalities between people who are more emotionally engaged in "process" than "outcomes." A lot of people just like to futz with stuff for no other reason than it's interesting to them and challenging. Linux people are typically like that. Most other people are primarily intererested in accomplishing tasks with the least amount of hassle, so desktop Linux has traditionally seemed unattractive to them. They hate learning curves.


One day soon (& it's not that far away) Linux as a whole, and Ubuntu as a distro, will be pretty much able to run almost anything thrown at it..... Linux has come such a long way in such a small amount of time, and just keeps getting better & better. Yeah, it's gonna be a while before it's ready a "Mainstream Takeup" but that day is looming. :)

With the best will in the world, I just don't see that happening as long as Linux is on its current course.

The plain truth is that building unbuggy drivers that really work is a difficult, expensive process, and relatively few manufacturers are going to at least double that effort for less than 1% of their market divided among numerous distributions that may or may not like the driver anyway. Face it, it's just a dead loss for them. At best, they may produce a rudimentary generic Linux driver for further development by "the community," but that development typically founders among geek fights, forks, lethargy and distractions -- and once a driver more or less works a bit, people usually quit work on it. As a consequence, hardware is typically obsolete and out of production before it even starts to work in Linux distributions.

I have a possible solution for that problem, but I'll have to get to it later, as the cat wants to go outside. ;)

aysiu
May 24th, 2006, 07:44 PM
Most other people are primarily intererested in accomplishing tasks with the least amount of hassle, so desktop Linux has traditionally seemed unattractive to them. They hate learning curves. I'll partially agree with you there.

When it comes to Windows power users (the most likely subset of Windows users to migrate to Ubuntu or Linux in the first place), productivity is #1. They don't want to futz around--they want to get stuff done.

Most Windows users I know, though, are not power users, and they do, as you say, "hate learning curves." They're not concerned at all with productivity--only familiarity. For example, most people in my office couldn't give a damn about all the good keyboard shortcuts in Windows I try to teach them, even though using the mouse to accomplish the same tasks takes three or four times as long.

Efficiency isn't important for people who are tied to the mouse, and they would, in the long run, probably get more stuff done in Windows, Ubuntu, or whatever they use if they learned how to be efficient.

In the 9-to-5 world of a lot of jobs (not all jobs--some jobs are project-based), efficiency doesn't matter. People come with the mentality, I have to be here from X hour to Y hour, and they pay me the same no matter how efficient I am.

People who would rather click the minimize button on ten different windows instead of learning to press Windows+D to minimize them all at once can't claim they have no time to learn Linux. They just don't have the inclination to learn.... Windows or Linux. They'll learn the bare minimum in Windows to get stuff done inefficiently.

polo_step
May 24th, 2006, 08:38 PM
I'll partially agree with you there.

When it comes to Windows power users (the most likely subset of Windows users to migrate to Ubuntu or Linux in the first place), productivity is #1. They don't want to futz around--they want to get stuff done.

Most Windows users I know, though, are not power users, and they do, as you say, "hate learning curves." They're not concerned at all with productivity--only familiarity.
Familiarity is productivity.

Familiarity is efficiency.

This is where Microsoft got it dead right with massively switching the business world to Windows/GUI way back when, and the geeks (including me) got it all wrong.

It's why everything looks more or less the same way now, a wad of intuitively-named processes to click on in pull-down (or up) menus. You want to be able to think about the task, not the tool. A shortcut icon is about all the efficiency tweak most people will ever mess with.

You can lose a little time and steps on the front end of a task and still get the job done sooner if you don't have to change your knowledge set to be quicker. You have a ton of stuff to think about and learn in a real job, and people typically can't be othered cluttering their minds trying to remember some hotkey trick they may rarely use again. Unless it's something they'll use frequently, learning it statistically wasted more time and mental resources than it will ever save, and therefore learning it was actually a stupid thing to do.

Yes, learning can be dumb, objectively.

This is something I see constantly on geek fora, Linux or otherwise -- people spending incredible amounts of time and energy to make stuff happen a second or two quicker. Unless that's your real job, you've committed a massive mega-inefficiency; you'll NEVER make that time back up. If you're some third-party, though, you may save some time by picking up on the tweak, if it's not too much hassle, after someone else has wasted three weeks of his life devising it. That's about the limit of efficient geekery.

In the real world, the object is to be able to peform the maximum amount of processes with the minimum amount of skills. That defines efficiency, not raw speed. That's why the real world says GUI is smart and command line is stupid.

aysiu
May 24th, 2006, 09:43 PM
Familiarity isn't productivity if you become familiar with slow ways of doing things.

I'm not talking about saving a second or two--I'm talking hours.

I'll give you real examples from my workplace:

1. Someone I work with used to compare lists by hand that had IDs in common--printing out both lists and comparing them side by side. This takes well over an hour for long lists. I learned how to do this in Excel with a function called VLookup that compares the two columns of IDs and tells you which are in common--it takes three minutes to do.

2. We have a shared file server with tons of nested directories. Oftentimes, someone has to click through five levels to get to the file she's looking for. I've seen several individuals, in the open dialogue, click on the folder name, then move their mice to the Open button and then move the mouse back instead of just double-clicking on the folder name to get it to open. Yes, this seems to save only seconds, but when you need to do this daily, those seconds count.

3. One time, my boss wanted me to collect all the email addresses in about 300 separate Word documents. Well, do you know how long that would have taken if I'd taken the "familiar" route--opening each Word document separately and scouring for email addresses and copying and pasting them to one document? I can assure you it would have taken more than one work day.

Instead, I found a way to merge all the Word documents into one Word document, then I found a script on the internet that can be run locally and can retrieve anything that looks like an email address and put it into a new document.

Familiarity does not mean efficiency, at least not as far as I've seen.

BoyOfDestiny
May 24th, 2006, 10:09 PM
Familiarity isn't productivity if you become familiar with slow ways of doing things.

I'm not talking about saving a second or two--I'm talking hours.

I'll give you real examples from my workplace:

1. Someone I work with used to compare lists by hand that had IDs in common--printing out both lists and comparing them side by side. This takes well over an hour for long lists. I learned how to do this in Excel with a function called VLookup that compares the two columns of IDs and tells you which are in common--it takes three minutes to do.

2. We have a shared file server with tons of nested directories. Oftentimes, someone has to click through five levels to get to the file she's looking for. I've seen several individuals, in the open dialogue, click on the folder name, then move their mice to the Open button and then move the mouse back instead of just double-clicking on the folder name to get it to open. Yes, this seems to save only seconds, but when you need to do this daily, those seconds count.

3. One time, my boss wanted me to collect all the email addresses in about 300 separate Word documents. Well, do you know how long that would have taken if I'd taken the "familiar" route--opening each Word document separately and scouring for email addresses and copying and pasting them to one document? I can assure you it would have taken more than one work day.

Instead, I found a way to merge all the Word documents into one Word document, then I found a script on the internet that can be run locally and can retrieve anything that looks like an email address and put it into a new document.

Familiarity does not mean efficiency, at least not as far as I've seen.

Thank you for providing some real life examples... I wanted to reply to the previous post, but it was pure opinion and assumption... I know where arguments of that type can lead... If this then this, but if that, then this must be true too... Just ends up being pure circular reasoning...

Excellent post.

polo_step
May 25th, 2006, 12:06 AM
Familiarity does not mean efficiency, at least not as far as I've seen.

You still completely misunderstand efficiency in the broader sense that I meant it, but no matter...let's look at it like this:

Markets, at least in the long view, are self-interested and self-correcting. What that means in the workplace is that if you have some manageably easy shortcut that will materially lessen the drudgery of a task that's regularly taking up a large part someone's time on the job and can present it in a way that's assimilable, I guarantee it will get used, because people are lazy -- but that's a lot of "ifs."

IF you can put that shortcut into three quick steps on a yellow sticky note and put it on the left margin of the computer monitor where it requires minimal thought and memory to use until it becomes routine, and it really saves work, it'll get used, because people would rather be screwing off on the boss's time than merging files, or whatever.

If on the other hand you're going to be "Nick Burns" about it (and have I seen plenty of them in the workplace!), you and your shortcuts are just going to get ignored because of poor presentation. People just want "here, do this, I'll write it down." If it works, if it makes their jobs enough easier to justify the mental disruption required to integrate it into their routines, they'll eventually do it because they're lazy. Try it out on the most innovative, least resistant chimp in the cage and the others will probably follow.

They're not going to do it just because you think it's a slick trick. You have to make them see the substantial advantage for them. In my own experience, though, I think people generally overestimate the ease and value of their pet tweaks.

aysiu
May 25th, 2006, 12:12 AM
They're not going to do it just because you think it's a slick trick. You have to make them see the substantial advantage for them. In my own experience, though, I think people generally overestimate the ease and value of their pet tweaks. Bottom line, my "pet tweaks" have saved me and my boss and my co-workers hours of grunt work so we can spend that time planning instead.

I don't know what you're talking about with this "efficiency in the broader sense" business. Does it save time or not?

Keep living in that abstract "broader sense." Meanwhile, I'll be saving time and being more efficient.

polo_step
May 25th, 2006, 12:49 AM
Bottom line, my "pet tweaks" have saved me and my boss and my co-workers hours of grunt work so we can spend that time planning instead.
That's just more work. You're supposed to save time so you can doink around on MySpace or play Freecell or gossip in the break room. ;)


I don't know what you're talking about with this "efficiency in the broader sense" business. Does it save time or not?

Keep living in that abstract "broader sense." Meanwhile, I'll be saving time and being more efficient.

OK, pay attention: Something can save time and still be grossly counter-efficient.

I can think of a dozen ways (or more) that introducing a novel, faster way of doing something in the workplace might monkeywrench overall efficiency, and that's assuming that all those envolved could even agree on what efficiency would constitute in the first place. Employees and employers typically have irreconcilable views on this, obviously, and they're both right.

That's not hypothetical, either. Attempts at "increasing efficiency" by narrow means have destroyed many a business as a working, complex system. I've seen it all my working life, which included (prior to my blessed early retirement) some thirty years working around the world in all sorts of professional environments, from small businesses to the Fortune 500 corporations, with intimate acquaintance from the shop floor to the boardrooms.

"Workplace Efficiency" is an extraordinarily complex and elaborate balancing act. It's not just task speed.

aysiu
May 25th, 2006, 12:53 AM
I believe what you're talking about are trickle-down motions for efficiency instead of grassroots efforts.

Yes, I agree, if management decides, "Let's bring a task force or a group of consultants to see how we can make our office more efficient," the overall net effect is going to be a lack of productivity and efficiency.

However, when you know you have a task to accomplish, and you weigh out the possibilities for that task (whether it's one to be repeated or not) and ask yourself as individual, "Is it worth investigating and learning some new shortcut or way to get this done in a matter of minutes instead of hours... or not?"

Now, whether that newly gained time allows you to focus on more important work, allowing you to better think out plans, not have to stay late at the office, or... as you say, just stand around the water cooler chatting... that's up to you how you want to use your saved time... but it does save time and make you more efficient.

What you do with the time you gain with that efficiency is another issue.

BoyOfDestiny
May 25th, 2006, 12:57 AM
OK, pay attention: Something can save time and still be grossly counter-efficient.

I can think of a dozen ways (or more) that introducing a novel, faster way of doing something in the workplace might monkeywrench overall efficiency, and that's assuming that all those envolved could even agree on what efficiency would constitute in the first place.


Something can save time and be efficient.

Here is a simple example.
Do not scratch right ear with left hand.
Scratch right ear with right hand.

Certain processes can be improved by cutting down on waste. This is efficiency.

In terms of getting the job done, that's effectiveness.

Are these two terms being mixed, or what?

veev
May 25th, 2006, 06:47 AM
I've been using computers since the days of DOS. Naturally, I switched to win95...98...and finally Win2k when they came out. (Still using 2k, not XP). I'm not a computer science major, but I know some C++, I know what partition is, put my own PC together.
I've been hearing such great things about linux for a while now. Finally someone told me about how incredibly user friendly Ubuntu was. So I decided to give this linux thing a shot. I know linux evangelists are always talking about how linux is sooo much better than windows. I don't particularly like windows either. But here is the experience I had.
I format my HD, get an Ubuntu CD, and go for the intsall. I like how Ubuntu automatically makes a swap partition for me. Then ubuntu asks me to uncheck any resolutions that I don't want to use. I somehow screw up, and forget to add a check to the 1280x1024 box. (which is my LCDs resolution). So now when I get every installed, I go to change the resolution. It won't let me up my resolution to anything higher than 1024x768. I suppose this is to protect something, but windows lets you try any resolution you want and I've never hurt a monitor. So I have to go in and manually edit some file to add the 1280x1024 to the list of possible resolutions. (Why can't I go to System->Administration and see a “monitor settings” GUI that will let me, via the root pw, set the max resolution? Bad Ubuntu. Good windows). Now that I changed my xorg.conf file to let me choose a higher res, I have to reboot (I thought linux never had to do this?) so that my computer reloads xorg.conf. Of course I could just go to a terminal, exit GNOME so that I'm in text only mode, restart GNOME. But you can hardly expect a casual user to be able to do that.
Also during install it said it couldn't get internet access, it said my DHCP server was slow to respond. Windows never has any problems with this. I get Internet on every boot. Once its all installed, I notice that it recognizes and has drivers for my 3COM Ethernet card, but it is disabled. I enable, and try to connect to the internet. No luck. So what do I do. I reboot. Then it works fine. This seems a lot like windows. I thought Linux was better?
Then I try to mount my secondary hard drive thats inside my computer. Windows would do this automatically. Ubuntu automatically mounts my USB drive. But not the drive inside my computer. Why, I don't know. So I got to System->Disks, (enter my root pw), and add it. Of course, it mounts it so that its owned by root, which means I can't write anything to it. Why doesn't the disk manger ask me who I would like to own the disk? So once again, the Ubuntu GUI has failed me and I have to do this stuff manually. I figure out what lines I need to add to fstab so that it will automount it, make it owned by me, etc. Why is there not a little GUI that pops up when I first install ubuntu that says “It looks like you have an unmounted FAT32 partition in your computer. Would you like to automount this every time you boot up, or leave it unmounted?” I mean, this is what a computer user should expect. And this is what windows gives me that linux doesn't. I should have to go to a help forum just to be able to get a hard drive inside my computer to mount.
Then I want to adjust my mouse so that the forward and back settings work. Once again, I ask, why can't I go to System->Administration and see a GUI that say “Mouse settings” that lets me say what type of mouse I have, and what I'd like the buttons to do. Why do I have to read a 3 page “How To” in order to get Linux to recognize my namebrand mouse. I know I can change the preferences of my mouse, but that didn't help me make my buttons work as forward and back in Firefox.
Finally, I go to install something. I'm messing with the package manager, I minimize it so that I can open firefox and check the forums. I find some howto that says how to install something. Open a terminal and type sudo apt-get install *****. Then I get an error that says
E: Could not get lock /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (11 Resource temporarily unavailable)
E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), is another process using it?
How am I supposed to know that this means “You can't use apt-get while Synaptic Package Manager is open”. I mean really, why doesn't the error message say “Make sure you only have on package manager open at a time”.
Finally, I went to copy some data on my newly mounted HD (which is FAT32 so I can access it from Ubuntu and win2k). I copied folder after folder, then all the sudden I tried to copy another folder (during the same session) and it said “This is a read only file system”. My permissions were fine, it wasn't a permission problem. Ubuntu thought my HD (which it just wrote a bunch of files to) was like a CD-Drive, where it is inherently read only. Fine...I reboot. Then one of my folders is missing! Fine, I boot to windows 2000. Windows 2000, upon boot up, says my drive needs a checkdist. It says a filder is corrupted, and makes a FIND.000, FIND.001...about 4 gigs of these files. Ubuntu somehow corrupted a bunch of data.
That was my final straw. Took hours to get my monitor resolution and mouse working. Half of the boots, it can't find my DHCP server and i have to reboot to get Internet. Windows finds the server every time.
Sure, I gotta reinstall windows every 6 months. But that takes maybe a few hours, less if I image my drive. It seems like linux takes ages to do the most trivial tasks. Linux has potential, but its not there yet. At least not for the casual user who doesn't want to pour hours into searching forums. Thanks for your guys help, people were very helpful and responsive in the forums. But I'm a windows guy for now.
One more note about help files. The idea behind Ubuntu is that you don't have to use the command line and edit config files manually. In windows, if I go to a “how-to”, it looks like this http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/laptop/thunderbird/ It has pictures of the GUI. But all the online ubuntu help expects that I'll be using command lines to do everything. Seems kind of self defeating for ubuntu to try to be mostly GUI, but all the help is text based.

aysiu
May 25th, 2006, 06:55 AM
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017

Best of luck with Windows 2000.

RudolfMDLT
May 25th, 2006, 07:00 AM
Hi!

Each to his own... It's sad that you had to go back to Win 2000. For most of the stuff you listed there are GUI's for. The text base commands generate text based errors while if you open "Synaptic" and "Add an Application" at the same time you get a user friendly message. Just an example.

Aniway,

Cheers!

IYY
May 25th, 2006, 07:00 AM
You're coming to Linux with a Windows mindset, and while there's nothing wrong with the Windows mindset, you were bound to be disappointed. The Linux user, when seeing a problem, does not immediately blame the operating system or program, but tries to understand the problem, then debug it, and if he can't do it alone, ask for help.


The idea behind Ubuntu is that you don't have to use the command line and edit config files manually.

No, it isn't. This is the idea behind Suse and MEPIS, not Ubuntu. Ubuntu embraces the CLI for configuration and debug, as it is much easier to provide help and diagnose a problem in this form.

Your main problem with Ubuntu was that you were expecting to use a GUI for everything. This is not the way this OS is meant to be used. If your friend told you it is, he was not telling the truth. You can try one of the systems I previously mentioned if you want complete GUI configuration, but you may be best to stay with Windows. In this particular area, it is often better than Linux (not always - my last two Windows installations were far less intuitive than my Ubuntu installations). I hear OS X is even better at that.


Linux has potential, but its not there yet

It is there for many of us. It certainly is there for me.

niviche
May 25th, 2006, 07:10 AM
I think the original poster has a point. I underwent the same process as he did, spending hours at reading How-Tos just to set up correctly my keyboard, mouse, keyboard, or to understand what something as cryptic as "kdesu aptitude autoclean" can mean.
In the end, I got my system to do (more or less) what I want, but it was only after mere weeks of looking for information, asking other user, and thinking of just discarding my Linux installation altogether.

Whatever mindset a user has when he tries Ubuntu, it should not be expected from him that he spends a humongous amount of time on learning useless tricks and computer jargon. It's all fine for people who work in this field, but puts off people who are genuinely interested but have only so much time to spend.

zluka
May 25th, 2006, 07:11 AM
take it easy.. nobody's pointing a gun at you to use linux, or ubuntu for that matter.

that's why people call it "the linux bug", you get it or you don't.. i also have some problems, like everyone else here i guess. but i got into the computing thing because i wanted to know what's going on inside. and linux gives me the chance to dig it out for myself. yes, not always success, sometimes you have to wait for an update, or lose hours to get something simple working, but i enjoy it. i feel the warmth of glory when i make it work.

if you're the type of guy who just wants to have everything on beautiful images, and have no problems with the bugs of winblows, it's your choice. just sad to lose someone.. :(

there are solutions to your problems (and you know that too), but yes, it takes time and effort to get things working.

i felt pretty much the same way you do now, when i first installed breezy, and found out that i had to do a 100 things to get my mouse working, to play mp3's, to be able to print normally and such..

but i was infected by then ;) and gave it another shot after a few months. not i'm a dapper user at home and at work, for more than a month. and i do not miss winblows..

that's generally the case actually. people first give it a shot, find it confusing and horrible maybe, and that's not the first time i've heard "linux is maybe the best, but it's not home for me, yet". i've thought or written about that dosens of times.

besides, a humble advice: did you try kubuntu? kde is very different from gnome, and closer to winblows. i don't like it because i find it slower, and have been going with gnome from the first moment, i just gave it a few shots, and returned to gnome.

see, that's wonderful from my point of view. i can change the window manager, or the complete layout of my icons, menus, etc. without looking for programs, paying them (in most cases every year), and then hate it completely...

i'm sick and tired of m$, but i had to use it. until dapper.. even it's still beta (i've been using it since alpha) it has always been better and more stable than winblows. i can remote-access my servers, reach active directory shares, reach the exchange server from dapper, in a much faster and securer way..

all in all, everything i've written has the "from my point of view" signature.. no offence, just would like to gain you to the community.

who knows, maybe you have "the bug" also, you're just not aware yet ;)

take care

IYY
May 25th, 2006, 07:14 AM
Whatever mindset a user has when he tries Ubuntu, it should not be expected from him that he spends a humongous amount of time on learning useless tricks and computer jargon. It's all fine for people who work in this field, but puts off people who are genuinely interested but have only so much time to spend.

When everything goes right in an Ubuntu installation (as it did for me many many times, and as it does for most people), it's as easy to set up as any other OS, no tricks or jargon required. If something goes wrong, a new user can just ask on the forum and be told how to fix the problem. When something goes wrong in Windows, it usually means, reboot reboot reboot, reinstall, reboot, reinstall, tech support, tech support tells you to reboot reinstall, etc. This is not better.

simonn
May 25th, 2006, 07:18 AM
Yet another LINWSMBC post.

(Linux Is Not Windows So Must Be Crap)

Yawn. Go back to W2K then. The Linux community has no need of you. If you are not willing to learn it, there is no chance that you might actually contribute to it.



I hear OS X is even better at that.


True. To be honest I would say that it is the closest to perfection in a desktop OS that there is. Shame it is not open source. Still has driver problems like linux though - try getting a USB to IrDA adaptor that works.

Don't get me wrong I still likes me Ubuntu too.

aysiu
May 25th, 2006, 07:23 AM
Yet another LINWSMBC post.

(Linux Is Not Windows So Must Be Crap)

Yawn. Go back to W2K then. My thoughts exactly. As if I haven't typed rebuttals to all of this crap a thousand times over. Use whatever OS works for you. If that's Windows 2000, so be it.

I've already written Is Ubuntu for You? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315). I don't see what veev hopes to accomplish with this drop-in-the-ocean thread.

Sef
May 25th, 2006, 07:27 AM
Next time use a live cd first. That way you can know most of the problems that you will have when you install.

When you started with DOS, everything went fine with no hitches?

niviche
May 25th, 2006, 07:29 AM
If something goes wrong, a new user can just ask on the forum and be told how to fix the problem. When something goes wrong in Windows, it usually means, reboot reboot reboot, reinstall, reboot, reinstall, tech support, tech support tells you to reboot reinstall, etc. This is not better.

Come on. You don't have to convince me, I use Ubuntu. ;) I might have been lucky, but there is no comparison between the amount of time spending getting Ubuntu to recognize my hardware and the one spent on making Windows secure.

Yes, Linux is not Windows, and so on and so forth, but *some* elements of Windows or of OS X are taking into consideration the "human" part of "for human beings" more than Ubuntu. I'm sure it will change, but there is no denying that there still room for improvement.

confused57
May 25th, 2006, 07:37 AM
I wonder how new computer users would adjust to windows, if the computer manufactures shipped their computers without the OS installed, but just include the Windows install CD and you'd have to install and configure it yourself?

Windows comes preconfigured with computers, new users glance through the "owner's manual", and they're up and running...can't get any easier.

Yes, Ubuntu & Linux require time to learn and it is different from Windows, which most pc users have grown accustomed to using...it definitely requires a desire and dedication for learning a different OS. I use Windows mostly, but Ubuntu is both a challenge and a lot of fun to learn how it works, at least with Linux you kind of get to know how the OS is configured, what's going on in the background, etc. If my Windows crashes, at least I could pop in a Live CD; browse the internet to see if I could find some solutions...use it to rescue data before needing to reinstall, the list goes on...

kriding
May 25th, 2006, 07:49 AM
as a newbie user myself, my advice is to keep at it. My install was painless for the most part, but my network took some setting up so I could access the XP box on my network, and it took more then one attempt to get it right. Yes I agree that Ubuntu can take some setting up and requires time and effort to get things right, but that's just part of the course, I now know what's working and where, and how to sort it 'if' it goes wrong.

I have broken my install more then once during my tinkering, but was always able to recover it from the command line...try that in windows! I locked my system out when I used XP and had to reinstall..in ubuntu I just used the root account from the terminal login.....a big plus for me as I know I will break linux several more times before i become competent with it.

I will admit that losing the wizards and all the GUI was a major slap in the face, but it's so much easier following command line instructions, then it is all the 'click this => select that=>look for some check box or other and check it' and make sure....'

and the biggest plus is not so much rebooting and the much faster bootup....

My advice is give it a go, once it does what you want it to, you'll be happier

veev
May 25th, 2006, 07:53 AM
Okay. Point Taken, I came in with a windows mindset and was disappointed. That's not Ubuntu's fault. The reason I complained about not having GUI to configure my mouse was not because I was comparing it to windows, but because that seems like a trivial application to write. Linux is open source, so anyone can write a little app that edits the config files, right?
It just seems like it would be simple to have Ubuntu ask you a few questions when it installs like "How many buttons does your mouse have", "would you like Ubuntu to automount drive x". It could be totally text based, doesn't have to be a GUI. Then Ubuntu can write the config files.

fuscia
May 25th, 2006, 08:50 AM
i have a copy of ME you can borrow.

simonn
May 25th, 2006, 09:28 AM
Okay. Point Taken, I came in with a windows mindset and was disappointed. That's not Ubuntu's fault. The reason I complained about not having GUI to configure my mouse was not because I was comparing it to windows, but because that seems like a trivial application to write.

Off you trot then... :).



Linux is open source, so anyone can write a little app that edits the config files, right? It just seems like it would be simple to have Ubuntu ask you a few questions when it installs like "How many buttons does your mouse have", "would you like Ubuntu to automount drive x". It could be totally text based, doesn't have to be a GUI. Then Ubuntu can write the config files.

Linux is a multi-user system. At anyone time, my linux box may have people logged into it via Gnome, terminal, sftp, ssh terminal or forwarded X11 or webmin.

I often run gnome sessions forwrded via X11 on my iBook. My iBook has a touch pad with one button. The mouse connected to the actual PC is a standard three button/scroll wheel mouse.

How many buttons does my mouse have?

Arguably, it is a little more complicated than you may have thought?

Also, this highlights the importance of the command line. Other than sftp, any of the other means of logging into my Ubuntu box gives me access to a command line, so if I know how to configure via the command line I can do it from anywhere in the world I can get internet connection that allows https. Other than a browser, possibly though not neccesarily with java installed, no other software is required on the client, be that a PC, a phone, PDA etc etc etc.

fuscia
May 25th, 2006, 03:00 PM
windows is like driving an automatic and linux is like driving a stick. (i guess that would make macs like being picked up by the van from the nursing home.)

jwd45244
May 25th, 2006, 06:25 PM
I think it is very interesting that people give up on using Linux based upon how hard or easy it is to install. That is like saying I won't drive this car because it is difficult to build. I have installed OSes from the DOS days through Windows XP. I have never had one go completely smoothly. I have installed a number of Different Linuxes (Redhat, Mandrake, Knoppix, Debian, and Ubuntu). I can say that with possibly one exception, the problems I had installing were largely my own making.

I agree that OSes should not be as hard as they are to install. The real question is how they are to use once they are running. BTW, My wife's uncle had lots of headaches with his Windows PC and asked me for some assitance. I have him a Knoppix CD and said to try this for a while and see what he thought. He used it for about two weeks and asked how he could run it instead of Windows and I pointed him to the instructions to install it to his PC. He did it and has never looked back.

confused57
May 25th, 2006, 08:09 PM
I think it is very interesting that people give up on using Linux based upon how hard or easy it is to install. That is like saying I won't drive this car because it is difficult to build. I have installed OSes from the DOS days through Windows XP. I have never had one go completely smoothly. I have installed a number of Different Linuxes (Redhat, Mandrake, Knoppix, Debian, and Ubuntu). I can say that with possibly one exception, the problems I had installing were largely my own making.

I agree that OSes should not be as hard as they are to install. The real question is how they are to use once they are running. BTW, My wife's uncle had lots of headaches with his Windows PC and asked me for some assitance. I have him a Knoppix CD and said to try this for a while and see what he thought. He used it for about two weeks and asked how he could run it instead of Windows and I pointed him to the instructions to install it to his PC. He did it and has never looked back.

I bet your uncle would love Kubuntu, at least he'd have a more updated KDE system and better support; but if Knoppix is working for him, that's great...

RudolfMDLT
May 25th, 2006, 09:01 PM
Just to add my 2 pennies as well...:)

I'm new to Linux and I've read a couple of these LINWSMBC post's - (Linux Is Not Windows So Must Be Crap) - Simonn. The thing that I'm seeing is that people that leave linux don't seem to understand that one of the differences between Windows & Linux is that Windows was built to sell while Linux was built to work. I don't mean this in bad way, it's just that people are used to the idea, coming from windows, that if you can't click away a problem then a solution doesn't exist, and their happy. It's ignorance in way...

Having to edit a file in order to tell the OS where to put your drive is not a pain in the neck, it's freedom and control. Because you haven't been used to TOTAL control of your OS doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Your just used to the Windows way of things, as you've said, you've been a Microsoft user for at least 10 years... you've been using Ubuntu for how long? Linux has a learning curve that you have to get over. After that, you're fine and you start appreciating the Linux way of doing things.

To be honest, I'm a little ticked at this post and some earlier LINWSMBC post. Respect is a big thing for me... crapping in other people's backyard after they've tried there outright best to help you is disrespectful! There are a couple of really committed people on this forum that try there outright best to help and get you up and running.

Now why, after these people do there very best to help, do you post something that breaks down the very thing that they are trying to build! If you decide to drop Linux/Ubuntu, then do it and don't use the forum to complain and whine. I can understand if people like aysiu and simonn get angry.

aysiu
May 25th, 2006, 09:26 PM
For the record:
I've been using computers since the days of DOS. Naturally, I switched to win95...98...and finally Win2k when they came out. (Still using 2k, not XP). Same here, except I did move to XP.
I'm not a computer science major, but I know some C++, I know what partition is, put my own PC together. I don't know any programming languages, and I've never put my own PC together.

I've been hearing such great things about linux for a while now. Finally someone told me about how incredibly user friendly Ubuntu was. Mepis and PCLinuxOS are far more "user-friendly" if by "user-friendly" you mean "point-and-click for everything."
It won't let me up my resolution to anything higher than 1024x768. I suppose this is to protect something, but windows lets you try any resolution you want and I've never hurt a monitor. Hasn't been my experience. Have you ever tried to install Windows from scratch if you don't have the driver for your video card? It's times like those you wish you could just edit a config file, believe me.
So I have to go in and manually edit some file to add the 1280x1024 to the list of possible resolutions. (Why can't I go to System->Administration and see a “monitor settings” GUI that will let me, via the root pw, set the max resolution? You can, but it's based on the config file you've got: System > Preferences > Screen Resolution.
Now that I changed my xorg.conf file to let me choose a higher res, I have to reboot (I thought linux never had to do this?) so that my computer reloads xorg.conf. Actually, you just have to reset the X server by pressing Control-Alt-Backspace. Who told you you had to reboot?
Also during install it said it couldn't get internet access, it said my DHCP server was slow to respond. Windows never has any problems with this. Sure it has. It did when I installed Windows ME with my new ethernet card, even though I had the driver for the card.
I get Internet on every boot. Once its all installed, I notice that it recognizes and has drivers for my 3COM Ethernet card, but it is disabled. I enable, and try to connect to the internet. No luck. So what do I do. I reboot. Then it works fine. This seems a lot like windows. I thought Linux was better? Not everyone has this experience. Why do you think your case is typical? Sample size: 1. Not very scientific there.
Then I try to mount my secondary hard drive thats inside my computer. Windows would do this automatically. Windows automatically mounts Ext3 partitions? That's news to me. Why, then, would you expect Ubuntu to automatically mount NTFS or FAT32 partitions? That's a double standard. By the way, Knoppix and Mepis do automatically mount Windows partitions, but that's a bonus. Windows does not automatically detect and mount non-native filesystems.
Why is there not a little GUI that pops up when I first install ubuntu that says “It looks like you have an unmounted FAT32 partition in your computer. Would you like to automount this every time you boot up, or leave it unmounted?” Oh, who the hell knows? After all, Knoppix and Mepis have already implemented this. It's not like it's a closed source implementation.
How am I supposed to know that this means “You can't use apt-get while Synaptic Package Manager is open”. I mean really, why doesn't the error message say “Make sure you only have on package manager open at a time”. File a bug report on this. Developers need to know this, not us.
It seems like linux takes ages to do the most trivial tasks. Actually, it seems like your computer and your mind were designed for Windows, and that you were installing an operating system from scratch on parts you bought for Windows.
Linux has potential, but its not there yet. Not where yet--being able to magically work on every piece of hardware out there? News for you: it'll never be there, no operating system will be. The most we can hope for is that new users who wish to install Ubuntu themselves will come with open minds and that other users will buy computers with Ubuntu already installed on them.
At least not for the casual user who doesn't want to pour hours into searching forums. Casual users don't install Windows.
One more note about help files. The idea behind Ubuntu is that you don't have to use the command line and edit config files manually. In windows, if I go to a “how-to”, it looks like this http://stuff.mit.edu/iap/laptop/thunderbird/ It has pictures of the GUI. But all the online ubuntu help expects that I'll be using command lines to do everything. Seems kind of self defeating for ubuntu to try to be mostly GUI, but all the help is text based. Text-based help is great. You can just copy and paste the commands. GUI-based help doesn't account for different interfaces. It also consumes a lot of time and bandwidth.

Iandefor
May 25th, 2006, 09:59 PM
Excellent post, aysiu.

As for veev:

I can understand your frustration, but Ubuntu isn't really that great of a distribution for beginners. I suggest SUSE (http://www.novell.com/linux/) (gratis version here (http://en.opensuse.org/Welcome_to_openSUSE.org)) and/or Mepis (http://www.mepis.org/) if you just want to get your feet wet and want to give Linux a try. Another distribution I think is pretty good and might also be worth trying is Fedora Core (http://fedora.redhat.com/).

Good luck whatever you do, eh?

aysiu
May 26th, 2006, 07:04 PM
I had an interesting experience today.

I showed two co-workers what I thought was a nifty trick in Excel that would help their reporting (both co-workers do the same kind of reporting, just for different populations).

One was ready to give her first child to me. The other was like, "Yeah, so? Why does this save time for me?" Well, she wasn't that rude in her expression, but that was the gist of it.

I think it all depends on the person. For some people, a particular trick takes longer to learn than the time the trick saves. For others, learning takes two minutes and saves them hours.

Bragador
May 26th, 2006, 07:28 PM
hehe on an interesting note this rminds me that my father works for a major corporation and his employees will switch for old input methods to SAP. It will save time and money for this corporation but many old persons that were quite quick with the old and tedious system will have to learn a completely new way to work.

So in the short term the efficiency will drop but people must adapt in order to get better results in the long run.

You might have the best horseback riders out there to do your deliveries but if someone invents the car, you'll have to move your horseback riders to be truck drivers or you'll lose money. That's life.

Stew2
May 27th, 2006, 12:54 AM
I could be wrong but I have kind of a diffrent take on this. I find that people get frustrated easily when things dont work the way they expect them to. The beauty is once you have tried Ubuntu, even if you have problems, you will be intriuged by it and you will have learned something about it.

In a few days you may decide to try it again. If things dont go the way you expect again you may get mad and drop it again... but you will have gotten farther and learned more. After you do this a few times, you realize that what it does makes sense, and your frustration will eventually fade as you learn the OS. You start to actually like learning new things! :)

The simple fact that you spent so much time writing your original post shows that you have an interest in Ubuntu and open source software. Once bitten by the Unbuntu bug, you always come back! :)

My advice to you would be to look at Ubuntu as kind of a learning experience. Don't drop your windows cold turkey and expect to pick up where you left off with Ubuntu or any other Linux distro for that matter. Play around with it, if something breaks, fix it and you will have gained knowledge. As you learn more it is easier and becomes fun. The trick is to be patient and try not to let your frustration levels go through the roof. When you start to feel like you are spinning your wheels, just back away from it for a while, it will make more sense when you have calmed down.

Just my two cents (from my own personal experience :D )... they always come back! (And they are more than welcome to! :) )

Cheers,
Stew2

charles woodward
May 27th, 2006, 11:35 AM
I think some of you have been a bit unfair with the original poster - i don't think he was `being disrespectful` or `crapping` on ubuntu help. I think he was just making the point that at times Linux can be hard - especially if you have not been used to having control of your own machine. As one poster pointed out most people are used to unpacking their computer, plugging it in, and off we go. But of course when the OS is installed by the maker, it is already configured to work with the hardware. Just try adding something new - especially if the maker has not paid MS a fortune to have it `approved`.

I myself have had a few problems with Ubuntu - bear in mind I first installed something similar (Xenix) in the mid 1980s (No graphics then) and have since installed Unix (AT&T), AIX (IBM) and various other flavours of Unix on machines, plus Red hat on my own machine, and am now on Dapper. I still have a problem (can't get my wireless to work with encryption) -but I am going to stick it out - for the simple reason that I control the computer, not some monolithic corporation.

Which brings me back to the point the I think the original poster was making - Ubuntu, good as it is, will fail to make a headway in the `real` world while it is perceived to be difficult to install. That is not Ubuntu's fault - but people are used to buying computers like they buy cars - they don't expect to have to tell the car what type of spark plug is used before it will start - they expect it to be pre-configured.

mp3guy
May 27th, 2006, 02:18 PM
Although you've solved your problem, I think you should read this;

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

alphaomega
May 27th, 2006, 03:00 PM
Burning media is a bit tricky. Even with good ole reliable K3B, I have had some issues with bad burns because of burning speed, etc. I can set the burn for 4X or 8X and I get told that the media is burning at 2.35X or 9X. That all depends on your computer speed, memory, buffer rate, type and size of the files. I think you do need to dual boot. Linux is fustrating for me also. I've tried/paid for at least 20 distros. I even tried Ubuntu a year and a half and it wouldn't take on my desktop. Now it's all I use. So have some patience, learn all you can or deal with the BSOD, spyware, viruses, Active and DIrect X.

Stormy Eyes
May 27th, 2006, 03:53 PM
Actually, I was referring to Linux as crappy - not UBUNTU specifically.

I've been using Linux for years. I never had the problems you say you're having. You're new to Linux, right? And you expect to be able to use Linux as easily as you use Windows, despite having years of Windows experience and no Linux experience? That expectation is as foolish as a master violinist picking up an electric guitar for the first time and wondering why he can't shred like Satriani or Malmsteen right away.

WormWood
May 27th, 2006, 04:09 PM
I can definately see where this original poster is coming from. I don't believe hes being mean, rude, or disrespectful in any way because I often have the same thoughts as him. Im brand new to this thing and im often thinking about just ditching the whole idea but im determined to at least get it running. I have tried installing linux on 3 machines so far and to no avail. This is definately not a os for a casual user, im still in the process of getting ubuntu to work on this computer, but I need a connection to the internet to download the correct video drivers, however my wireless usb card isn't supported. Also my ubuntu live cd boots correctly about 50% or less of the time. I understand that its about freedom and and all that good stuff, but it is kind of hard to configure and get it running when it doesn't work correctly. I have tried installing ubuntu on another computer and it freezes after trying to install grub 1.5 (something to that effect). I don't mind having to figure out how to configure things to run, but it is hard when the operating system just plain doesn't work, and that is when I have a problem with it and its times like that that I think, well windows is still there. I haven't given up yet, but i know its definately tempting. However I am loving the community and the support that everyone gives, its a very comfortable environment and thank you guys for all the help. Back to browsing more forums.

aysiu
May 27th, 2006, 05:36 PM
That expectation is as foolish as a master violinist picking up an electric guitar for the first time and wondering why he can't shred like Satriani or Malmsteen right away. I love that analogy, Stormy Eyes.

Stormy Eyes
May 27th, 2006, 05:48 PM
I love that analogy, Stormy Eyes.

Thanks. I suppose I should pick a pair of more well-known guitarists, though. You almost have to be a metalhead or a musician to know who Joe Satriani and Yngwie Malmsteen are. :)

kencoe
May 27th, 2006, 06:15 PM
OK - So some of you are sick of my pissing-and-moaning.
Apologies. ...

I understand that I have lots to learn, and if I get so frustrated so easily,
well, that's not good.

You have to remember that people who volunteer their time online to help others with their Distro are extremely passionate about it. They will often take a jab made at Linux (Ubuntu IS Linux) very seriously, but they do understand. We have all screamed at a monitor or two. We all get frustrated sometimes, but I appreciate you trying to keep calm. It makes things much easier to work out.

One word of warning, though. You will find that when you are getting really frustrated at a problem it is time to take a break and calm down. Working on an issue when you're fuming can lead to stress related errors that can cause some SERIOUS problems, ESPECIALLY if you are working from the command line.

Stormy Eyes
May 27th, 2006, 06:48 PM
Working on an issue when you're fuming can lead to stress related errors that can cause some SERIOUS problems, ESPECIALLY if you are working from the command line.

Take this advice to heart. Do not **** around with your computer when you're in a snarling mood.

matthew
May 27th, 2006, 07:05 PM
Thanks. I suppose I should pick a pair of more well-known guitarists, though. You almost have to be a metalhead or a musician to know who Joe Satriani and Yngwie Malmsteen are. :)I know them...oh, wait. :)

mostwanted
May 27th, 2006, 07:21 PM
I know Joe Satriani, but only because my guitar teacher is a fan.

Iandefor
May 27th, 2006, 08:00 PM
"But can I ask why you don't just use the CD/DVD-burning capabilities built-in to Nautilus? Or did I miss something here that says you tried it and it didn't work?"

...didn't know about it - I'll try that!
But - I have a "thing" for the command-line. I figure it's been a while. How did burning in Nautilus go?

Stormy Eyes
May 27th, 2006, 08:30 PM
I know Joe Satriani, but only because my guitar teacher is a fan.

Your teacher's got taste.

matthew
May 27th, 2006, 09:09 PM
Your teacher's got taste.I got to see him live when he was in Phoenix last year. Truly amazing!!! His albums are great, his concert videos are astounding, but live was even better. He is a shred monster and yet he plays with such taste and melodic cohesion. Can you tell I am in awe?

rjwood
May 27th, 2006, 10:00 PM
So - I followed the instructions on a thread here about creating a backup - it just used tar, and was really straightfoward.

Today I try to read from the archive that I've burned to a DVD - and I keep getting an I/O error!!!

WTF! Doesn't ANYTHING IN THIS CRAPPY OS work?!?!?

I'm abot ready to go back to M$ (which I hate) - Linux is WAYYYY to unreliable!

DAMMIT!

The only thing not reliable here is your belief in yourself and patience with yourself. Not all doors open with knobs..not all os's work the same, but they do work fine if you believe you can learn.

There is no such thing as failure here so just relax and take the pressure off yourself. You will be fine!!!!

angkor
May 27th, 2006, 10:17 PM
Take this advice to heart. Do not **** around with your computer when you're in a snarling mood.

Amen to that. My gf once made an old amd cpu burn itself when she was furious with someone she was calling when sitting right next to my comp. :) Well...maybe it had something to do with the cpu fan already making strange noises for a couple of weeks.But I still hold it against her ;)



ps. I'm neither a metalhead nor a musician, but I do know good guitarists. ;)

Good analogy.

carverj
May 28th, 2006, 12:22 AM
Most on this list are very experienced computer users. Would you
recommend Linux to your mom who wants to finally get a computer just to
browse the web and order her Oprah books of the month and finally be
able to look at her granddaughters pictures? Or a student who may have
some computer experience but be really broke?


Not so, the only reason I started using Linux was because my Mum's computer was under constant viral attack. So my neighbour, a Linux nut at the time, installed MEPIS on the hard drive.
On the other hand, if I didn't have his help initially, I doubt I would have had the computer savvy or even the confidence to progress at all.
It is really fun for me havng to learn how to do anything to get along.
I haven't had a problem yet with drivers and Linux. As a matter of fact, I find Windows to be far more obtrusive, insecure(didn't know there was a hacker threat with Linux) and difficult.
I use a dual boot system but when I find the time I will phase out Windows by installing all Open Source software to break the shackles of Corporate monopoly.

Regarding the great idea of selling computers Mac style with no driver or licensing issues, Perhaps you could install a dual boot hard drive, and offer support to those who get hooked on Linux

___________
Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes. ... Nelson Mandella

polo_step
May 28th, 2006, 06:29 AM
Not so, the only reason I started using Linux was because my Mum's computer was under constant viral attack.

That's the only reason I went back to Linux a year ago, and frankly the sole compelling reason I can think of to use Linux in the first place.

Ubuntu 5.04 worked pretty poorly for me, though. I could only use it for a portion of my online stuff, and when I got my notebook and wireless networking, I had to drop Linux as my hardware was effectively unsupported. 5.10 worked MUCH better, but supported no more of my new hardware and by then enough malware countermeasures were available for XP that I was able to use it online with no further infestations.

I keep abreast of Linux distros and fool around with a lot of them (most lately the "BackTrack" CD -- check it out), and for what I refer to as essential granny functions on a static machine, browsing & e-mail, I can't see why anyone would have much trouble with any current distribution that would initially install with no hardware problems. Firefox & Thunderbird work about the same either in XP or Linux. [shrug]

Linux doesn't work that well for me as a primary OS because I change a lot of secondary hardware around and Linux hardware support is frankly pretty abysmal for most stuff less than about four or five years old -- and "supported" doesn't really mean much in Linux in any case when it comes to most peripherals and add-ons. It takes forever for manufacturer's generic Linux drivers to ever wind up well-integrated into distributions.

I'm hoping 6.06 will carry more of a load for me, but we'll have to wait another week or so to find out.

qalimas
May 28th, 2006, 06:44 AM
OK - So some of you are sick of my pissing-and-moaning.
Apologies.

I wil try to post more civilied.

I understand that I have lots to learn, and if I get so frustrated so easily,
well, that's not good.

Thank you all for your suggestions... I will continue to update this thread with my progress.... which at the moment ... the newest DVD is burning, @2.5x1538KBps according to growisofs... we'll see if it coastered.

I've never used the CLI to burn a CD, but, I think in CLI, when the arguement is a letter, you use a single -, -h for example. But, when it's a word, you use double dashes, --help for example. Maybe you should have done --speed=1 instead of -speed=1? Just a thought :D

airtonix
May 28th, 2006, 07:50 AM
IYY : doood, jargon? he uses c++ and you mention jargon.... i dont get it

airtonix
May 28th, 2006, 08:24 AM
asisyu : or him .....grin grin

catlett: you must be what? five years old. yeah thought so

airtonix
May 28th, 2006, 08:27 AM
damn these double posts.,......can someone let me know how to delete these marrigeless spawnlings.

carverj
May 28th, 2006, 01:08 PM
I keep abreast of Linux distros and fool around with a lot of them (most lately the "BackTrack" CD
very nice. You just use it live huh!
I noticed on the screenshot (at distrowatch) the Tight VNC machine
Any experience with that? The reason I ask was that I had errors trying to make VmWare

isotonic
May 28th, 2006, 04:04 PM
.

isotonic
May 28th, 2006, 04:11 PM
If I were new to linux, then I wouldn't simply just format my hard disk and start over...that's just sheer madness.

You should set up an experimental machine to learn and explore any new system before giving up and blaming the system and others around it. Find out its strength and weaknesses, help and support options. Ask others around you if they can lend a hand if possible. Once you've gained the knowledge and experience then think of migrating from one system to another, but not before. A rule of thumb for this is when you feel comfortable doing common system administration tasks like adding users, setting up file shares, printers etc...just like you would do on Windows perhaps.

DJiNN
May 28th, 2006, 04:24 PM
besides, a humble advice: did you try kubuntu? kde is very different from gnome, and closer to winblows. i don't like it because i find it slower, and have been going with gnome from the first moment, i just gave it a few shots, and returned to gnome.

I was using Kubuntu (After having used Gnome for several months) until i had my first major Linux crash this morning, from which i'm just finishing the fresh install now. KDE was great, fairly snappy, looked good etc, but i've just loaded Ubuntu (Dapper) with Gnome again, and it looks really good, so i think i'll be sticking with that for a while.

In response to what the original poster was saying, i have to say i agree with him to a point. It is a REAL PAIN having to setup the most simple things like HARD DRIVE ACCESS & CODECS etc. Editing fstab is a breeze if you've done it for years i would imagine, but it's a major pain in the backside when all you want to do is get your system up & running & start using it. :)

Having said that, tempted though i was to go back to XP & just be done with Linux for now, i didn't do it..... instead, i'm re-installing Ubuntu & doing the whole codec thing again.... Let's face it, it's made a lot easier with programs like "Easy Ubuntu" & "Automatix". If i had to do it all again manually, i really don't think i'd bother. :)


i'm sick and tired of m$, but i had to use it. until dapper.. even it's still beta (i've been using it since alpha) it has always been better and more stable than winblows. i can remote-access my servers, reach active directory shares, reach the exchange server from dapper, in a much faster and securer way..

The whole directory sharing thing remains a complete mystery to me.... (& this is another area where XP scores well). I've tried so many times just to get a simple "File Sharing" thing going across my router, where i have several machines attached, both Win & Ubuntu, but it's NEVER worked even in the slightest, and to be honest it was, in the end, a lot easier just to transfer any files that need moving, using CD-RW instead! Once again the whole config file thing rears it's head with SAMBA etc, and it's just too much hassle & headache when put in with everything else that needs doing.


who knows, maybe you have "the bug" also, you're just not aware yet ;)

Well, i must certainly have the bug to have just spent the whole day re-installing Dapper! I can't honestly say why i did it..... but i'm glad that i did... I think! :)

DJiNN

aysiu
May 28th, 2006, 05:25 PM
If I were new to linux, then I wouldn't simply just format my hard disk and start over...that's just sheer madness. I agree. Before installing Linux on my main computer, I played around with Knoppix live CDs for a couple of weeks just to get familiar with Linux and KDE. I really don't get what the rush is to format...



In response to what the original poster was saying, i have to say i agree with him to a point. It is a REAL PAIN having to setup the most simple things like HARD DRIVE ACCESS & CODECS etc. Mepis comes with codecs and hard drive access. You don't have to like Mepis (I know a lot of Ubuntu users are Mepis-haters, for some strange reason), but it does come with a lot of functionality Ubuntu lacks and new Ubuntu users complain about.

DJiNN
May 28th, 2006, 07:19 PM
I agree. Before installing Linux on my main computer, I played around with Knoppix live CDs for a couple of weeks just to get familiar with Linux and KDE. I really don't get what the rush is to format...

Mepis comes with codecs and hard drive access. You don't have to like Mepis (I know a lot of Ubuntu users are Mepis-haters, for some strange reason), but it does come with a lot of functionality Ubuntu lacks and new Ubuntu users complain about.

Heehee, i had to laugh because i pretty much "Ate my own words" after writing that....! :) See http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=183644&highlight=djinn
to see what i mean.

It just can't get any easier than that...... so i now bow humbly & say, ANYONE that thinks Ubuntu is HARD to install & setup, really shouldn't be let anywhere near a computer! :)

DJiNN

polo_step
May 29th, 2006, 03:16 AM
[BackTrack's] very nice. You just use it live huh!

You may also install it if you wish.

As a Prism II card is required for running almost anything in the distro, I didn't bother trying to do anything with it, myself.

aysiu
May 29th, 2006, 05:00 AM
It just can't get any easier than that...... so i now bow humbly & say, ANYONE that thinks Ubuntu is HARD to install & setup, really shouldn't be let anywhere near a computer! :) Well, yes and no.

I think there are two ways Ubuntu could be hard to install and set up:

1. The hardware is just not Linux-compatible. It happens, and if you don't use a live CD to test it out, and decide instead to just forge ahead and install Ubuntu... you're going to have a tough time.

2. If you're highly dependent on Windows-only software that has no Linux equivalents and you're too cheap to get Crossover Office or VMWare... then, you're going to have a tough time.

Otherwise, you should be fine, yes.

zluka
May 29th, 2006, 12:46 PM
I think there are two ways Ubuntu could be hard to install and set up:

1. The hardware is just not Linux-compatible. It happens, and if you don't use a live CD to test it out, and decide instead to just forge ahead and install Ubuntu... you're going to have a tough time.

2. If you're highly dependent on Windows-only software that has no Linux equivalents and you're too cheap to get Crossover Office or VMWare... then, you're going to have a tough time.

Otherwise, you should be fine, yes.
many times i felt myself in the middle.. i mean i had the opportunity of buying a new laser at work (i really needed it, and found a brother compatible with linux), and by pure chance my box was compatible with linux (anyhow i have some bluetooth troubles, but not fatal)..

but for the remote control program i had (which shows the screen of the user at the moment, therefore better for peek-a-boo's and seeing the problem at the moment), and some special printing operations, i still have to switch back to winblows..

anyhow, it's a fact that i'm more effective and faster in winblows because the war has been going on since winblows 3.1 (or maybe dos, not quite sure), so i'm really a "power user" in winblows.. and not yet in ubuntu, or linux..

well, i got the bug once, of course i'm not 100% happy with linux, for it's still harder than winblows (for me, yet ;) ), but i'm not thinking about ditching the whole thing and going back to m$'s arms, most probably the original poster will do the same.. it's just a matter of time.

canci
May 30th, 2006, 11:18 AM
My country's government (Bosnia & Herzegovina) recently made an exclusive contract w/ Micro$oft to supply every computer in the local institutions w/Windoze.
Just take the fact that 40% of the ppl here are unemployed and that loads of IT specialists have no job, meaning that they emigrate, and they rather give the money to M$ for the sake of "well" maintained propriatery software then to hire some ppl more and have a cost free Linux system :(

Think about that! Ppl are way used to it, it's like Coke: it's crap, but ppl still buy it.

isotonic
May 30th, 2006, 03:11 PM
.

qBaz
May 31st, 2006, 03:37 AM
I'm writing a paper for a class on geeks and their habits, and this thread seemed the closest thing to discussion of what I'm curious about:

There's occasional discussion about what kinds of users are not right for linux in general or Ubuntu in specific. In no more than 2-3 sentences, how would you, the Ubuntu-cognoscenti, describe the person perfectly-suited to use Ubuntu, and the person least-suited to do so?

I have my own theories on this, but I'm curious what others think.

Edit: I've opened a thread specifically for this discussion, at http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=185005

aysiu
May 31st, 2006, 03:42 AM
There's occasional discussion about what kinds of users are not right for linux in general or Ubuntu in specific. In no more than 2-3 sentences, how would you, the Ubuntu-cognoscenti, describe the person perfectly-suited to use Ubuntu, and the person least-suited to do so? There are two kinds of users perfectly suited for Ubuntu:

1. Those who know very little about computers, are a little adventurous, and who know someone else who knows a lot about Ubuntu.

2. Those who are adventurous and know a lot about computers or want to know a lot about them. These people have open minds.

Two kinds of users perfectly unsuited for Ubuntu:

1. Windows power users with closed minds. They want all sorts of obscure Windows-only programs, and they want everything in the set-up to be point-and-click. One command they have to copy and paste into the terminal scares them away.

2. People who know very little about computers and who are not adventurous and don't know anyone who can install and configure Ubuntu for them.

For more details, read this:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktop

steveneddy
May 31st, 2006, 04:20 AM
I just want more beans. How ya doin'? :)

aysiu
May 31st, 2006, 04:21 AM
I just want more beans. How ya doin'? :) Why are you posting in the Backyard, then?

43moon
May 31st, 2006, 04:59 AM
mousepad,

My first few attempts at Linux (over the past 5 years) were miserable failures too. It was far too difficult and overwhelming. Ubuntu was the first distro that actually captured me. It was overwhelming at first, but I could see the potential. Enough so that I could tell that it was going to be worth it to work through the difficulties. I was tired of the XP hassles and I was not looking forward to the Vista experience. The time was right for me and I am glad that I hung in there and made the conversion. If you don't stay (or keep a dual boot), I hope that you give it a try again later, perhaps the time will be right for you then.

B0rsuk
May 31st, 2006, 05:26 AM
I used Windows for several years, then both systems with dual boot. Then 2 weeks after installing Kubuntu 5.10, I removed my windows partition.
After a while of using Linux only, I feel crippled when I don't have shell access. I work with computers, study IT (althrough we don't use windows on our university), and I'll tell you using mouse all the time... hurts. It makes my hand hurt ocassionaly. If you have any programming experience, Linux feels much, much nicer, you can set up scripts to automate many tasks the way it's not possible with windows.

Also, I find apt-get and Adept far superior, easier and less time consuming to installing things windows way.

All my hardware, and connection worked after installing Kubuntu. Except for Geforce2 MX, but installing GLX was a matter of installing 1 package via Adept, and then typing ONE command with sudo. It takes less time than clicking through those silly windows wizards, installshields, blah blah, not to mention restart. I have no problem with Kubuntu.

Once you set something up on Linux, it works, and it doesn't break randomly. You don't spend time maintaining it, it just works. Even more - if you don't format your /home partition, you can reinstall your system (to resize partitions, for example) and keep most of your system settings, and software you installed locally on /home.

phillywize
May 31st, 2006, 05:47 AM
My first few attempts at Linux (over the past 5 years) were miserable failures too. It was far too difficult and overwhelming. Ubuntu was the first distro that actually captured me. It was overwhelming at first, but I could see the potential. * * * I was tired of the XP hassles and I was not looking forward to the Vista experience. The time was right for me and I am glad that I hung in there and made the conversion.

Ditto that. I started with Mandrake, and I really couldn't make that go at all. Then I wandered through several iterations of Fedora...much better, but still nothing that would make me want to switch from windows permanently. I'm really not much with scripting or programming or arcane driver nonsense, and those distros seemed to demand a lot on those counts.

Ubuntu has been an epiphany. I think it's starting to arrive as a mainstream OS option...it's getting there, though it's not perfect yet. Still a little bleeding edge. For some, myself included, that's part of the fun; for others, it's a bane. For instance, my wife wants absolute predictability and the same exact OS environment at work and at home...thus, it's XP on her machine, period. I wouldn't dream of foisting Ubuntu on her.

I also agree that the Vista thing looks like a mess. My machine is plenty powerful to run XP or whatever the Ubuntu version du jour is, but I'm sure Vista would absolutely kill it--especially graphics-wize. And moreover, after the rough maturation process of XP (how long did SP2 take to come out?), I'm not so inclined to go through it again with Vista. And plus, I'm not paying however much MS wants for it. Maybe when I get a new machine, I'll pick up Vista OEM. But rest assured, it'll be taking second chair to Ubuntu.

I also have to say that whatever rough edges Ubuntu still has, and it has a few, it is less crash-prone than Windows any day of the week. As a desktop user, I'm of course running X and all the window and desktop manager bells and whistles...anecdotally, I think that XP is noticably faster on my machine for light use -- basic web browsing, word processing, etc. But Ubuntu (and linux generally) seems to handle more demanding tasks (e.g., virtualization) better. Throw that in with (1) higher reliability; (2) better configurability/customizability; (3) good availabiltiy and quality of applications and drivers; and (4) the intangible coolness factor of GPL/copyleft/free software/thumbing nose at Microsoft, and I'm sold.

Be that all as it may, I understand those who prefer not to jump over to linux...it's not to be undertaken lightly just yet. But I'm hopeful that Ubuntu will be the distro to do for Linux what Firefox has done for the web browser, and maybe even do it better.

IYY
May 31st, 2006, 06:29 AM
Overall, you are right. Linux advocacy is often poorly done. The community has a number of fanatics who are looking for converts, almost religously. There are also a number of people who will tell you "it's easy" or "it should've been easy" or "it's easy for me." That's a good way to make a questioner feel foolish; believe me, I've heard it too often. If you hear that statement, go elsewhere for advice.

The reason that the "it was easy for me" reply is heard so often is because many people who decide to try Linux are very offensive with their criticism. The conversation usually goes like this:

New convert: "I've been using computers since I was 4 years old, I know my way around. And just LOOK at how many problems I had with Linux: my Lexmark printer didn't work, my Microsoft wireless network card didn't work without emulation - and Photoshop sucks in Wine. Surely, if it was this hard for me, it will be hard for almost anybody! Your OS sucks."

Defensive Linux user: "I'm sorry that the installation was so difficult for you, but you must understand that it worked for many other people. I, for example, only had to manually configure one driver and generally everything was autodetected."

New convert: "You're lying."

I've never heard people on this forum tell a new user who asked nicely that this "should be easy". It does happen on other discussion groups though (like the Debian mailing list).

aysiu
May 31st, 2006, 06:37 AM
IYY's right on.

If a new user says, "How do I do this? I'm new. It all seems so difficult..." no one on these forums is going to say, "Ha! It was easy for me. What's your problem?"

And, by the way, it is easy for some people. We all come with different experiences, different knowledge, different hardware, different attitudes. If you expect it to be difficult, you're often surprised at how easy it is. If you expect it to be easy, you're often surprised at how difficult it is.

If you just happen to have a lot of Linux-compatible hardware, everything gets autodetected (like on my computer). And if you don't... well, it sucks. If I happened to have a Lexmark printer and a Mac with an Airport Extreme wireless card, and I "needed" Adobe Creative Suite, then... I, too, would say it's difficult.

The real problem is that a lot of new users and old users alike do not look at aggregate experiences--only their own.

The one who has a difficult experience assumes everyone also has a difficult experience. The one who has an easy experience assumes everyone also has an easy experience.

It's only after you hang around these forums enough and see what problems and testimonials people present that you get a bigger picture of the diversity of experiences--it is easy for some, difficult for others.

steveneddy
June 1st, 2006, 04:44 AM
Why are you posting in the Backyard, then?

I can post somewhere else & get more beans? Cool.....

I think that's 43 now.

zba78
June 1st, 2006, 11:00 AM
WTF! Doesn't ANYTHING IN THIS CRAPPY OS work?!?!?

I'm abot ready to go back to M$ (which I hate) - Linux is WAYYYY to unreliable!

DAMMIT!

Oh well.... goodbye then

lptr
June 2nd, 2006, 11:20 AM
It would be nice to think so, but they will probably just stick with XP until their XP computer gets "too old" or "too slow," and they buy a new computer... and guess which version of Windows will come preinstalled on that new computer...

Well, I expect that this will not happen. You know that new Genuine Advantage Check stuff? I expect that lots of people need to do anything in short or long term because of it. No security patches will be available for them in future. Others feel not comfortable inbetween otherwise. To much pressure from several sides and now from a stupid SW manufacturer pressing users into things they don't even understand. BIOS lock, built in digital right management system and so on. It does not _feel_ well anymore. Most of all decisions are driven by feelings.

The momentum behind Ubuntu currently is amazing and will be a big danger for Vista because of the licence simplicity behind. I is usable for simple folks now and so 'just happens'. It is like Napster, eDonkey or Skype. All those things 'just' happened and had been an accepted part of the community. Far more than only a lucky experiment.

I expect Mark is doing exactly the right thing. The step into LTS for corps is part of a perfect strategy that will pay out in enterprise fields, too.

Anyone knowing the movie (or the book) 'Dune' will understand this: Mark is riding the worm. And he called a very big one. . .

aysiu
June 2nd, 2006, 06:28 PM
Well, I expect that this will not happen. You know that new Genuine Advantage Check stuff? I expect that lots of people need to do anything in short or long term because of it. No security patches will be available for them in future. Others feel not comfortable inbetween otherwise. To much pressure from several sides and now from a stupid SW manufacturer pressing users into things they don't even understand. BIOS lock, built in digital right management system and so on. It does not _feel_ well anymore. Most of all decisions are driven by feelings. I think what you're saying will apply to a significant portion of the population, but the vast majority of users will still feel comfortable with what they're used to--Microsoft. Very few people I know in real life care about DRM or privacy/control issues. A few do, but most don't.

buldir
June 3rd, 2006, 01:57 AM
I don't know if it's been mentioned (I'm not going to read all 150+ posts), but for high-quality printing go with:

Turboprint - high-quality printer drivers for Linux
http://www.turboprint.info/turboprint.html

It's well worth the $37.

A list of supported printers is at: http://www.turboprint.info/printers.html

polo_step
June 3rd, 2006, 02:09 AM
It's well worth the $37.

Personally, I find that inconceivable.

Likewise spending $20 for "licensed Linux drivers" to run a $10 Connexant winmodem.

[-(

scojo
June 3rd, 2006, 03:28 AM
My take on this is that linux, well more specifically, Ubuntu would work for most consumers. It may require someone to configure it up front, but once configured would work well for the average user. The trouble is the variance in hardware. I must say that the majority of my hardware was discovered "out of the box" but I had a few minor glitches w/ wifi. Not a problem at all for an enthusiast but might be a little daunting for a typical user. But...that said it still may be, on average, easier to deal w/ Linux hiccups than Windows viruses. I think w/ Ubuntu Linux is ready or very nearly ready for the average desktop user.

polo_step
June 3rd, 2006, 06:18 AM
The trouble is the variance in hardware. I must say that the majority of my hardware was discovered "out of the box" but I had a few minor glitches w/ wifi.
Linux WiFi still needs a lot of work to be hassle-free enough general use, and it's way late on this -- inexcusably so.

Linux people seem to believe that if with enough command-line and conf file doinking they can get an out-of-production, obsolete Prism2 wireless card to work on a single network, with grossly obsolete (non-)security features like WEP, that constitutes valid "wireless support."

This is the #1 gripe I see about Linux among technically competent computer users.

BoneKracker
June 3rd, 2006, 08:08 AM
troll

tht00
June 4th, 2006, 04:02 AM
Oh well.... goodbye then

troll

You know, this thread has been resurrected. The original poster probably won't be back.

And throwing 'troll' around in an unjustified manner is never a good idea.

BoneKracker
June 4th, 2006, 09:25 AM
I apologize. I don't normally do that.

In this case I said it because:

- It seemed the original poster was gone.

- It seemed the whole thing was a farce he had concocted for his personal amusement at the expense of people who would try to help him (so in my mind at least, I was using it in a justified manner - to tell people to stop wasting their time on it)

matthew
June 4th, 2006, 09:48 AM
This thread seems to have outlived its usefulness. I'm going to close it now.

revstar5
June 5th, 2006, 04:56 PM
i was reading Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll and i gotta tell you, linux ain't all that great

1. Hardware manufacturers don't even come out with linux drivers (except a few larger ones..... )

2. Installing programs is difficult as hell....... my ADSL router doesn't work under linux..... or even my 56K modem..... so i have no internet connection under linux ....so synaptic doesn't work.. ubuntu doesn't even have build tools included.... you have to go through dependency hell...... WILL SOMEONE PLEASE COME OUT WITH SOMETHING LIKE INSTALLSHIELD FOR LINUX..... i mean wizards really would be great.......

3. Why don't these OSs come with mp3 support out of the box... I have no problem with OGG but all my files are mp3s......

GoA
June 5th, 2006, 05:11 PM
Mp3 support cannot be included because of patent problems.
Program install isn't difficult, it just different than in windows. Synaptic isn't that hard to use. And for your hardware problems, uinfortunatly I cannot help you. Have you posted your problems in desktop/support forums?

Kimm
June 5th, 2006, 05:12 PM
Hardware manufacturers don't even come out with linux drivers (except a few larger ones..... )


This isnt Linuxs fault, blame the manufacturers, not the OS



Installing programs is difficult as hell....... my ADSL router doesn't work under linux..... or even my 56K modem..... so i have no internet connection under linux ....so synaptic doesn't work.. ubuntu doesn't even have build tools included.... you have to go through dependency hell...... WILL SOMEONE PLEASE COME OUT WITH SOMETHING LIKE INSTALLSHIELD FOR LINUX..... i mean wizards really would be great.......


Calm Down!
If you have an internet connection Installing software in Ubuntu is way ahead of Windows. Perhaps you should look into getting your router too work?
Anyway, If you can download software you can just as well download the dependencies for it, the total combined filesize is the same as if they would all be in one big installation package. And you cant possibly claim that Windows Comes with build tools!!

On the install shield part: Its called Autopackage!



Why don't these OSs come with mp3 support out of the box... I have no problem with OGG but all my files are mp3s......


Some do... some dont. Its usualy a mather of lisencing costs, or philosophy. Due to the secund mentioned Ubuntu will never have mp3 support out of the box, unless someone feels like dropping their patents.
Its not hard to get working though! Look into w32codecs, mpg123 and lame.

I think Xandros has mp3 support... but its not free, RedHat probably does too (Fedora doesnt). Check for XMMS, BMP, Audacious, BMPx and Banshee - They all play mp3 out of the box (unaffected by Software Patents) and all (besides from BMPx and Audacious) are in the repos.

Jucato
June 5th, 2006, 05:13 PM
1. Hardly Linux's fault. It's an issue with the hardware vendors. But still, Linux developers and programmers have done and still doing their best to adapt to this situation by making drivers through different means.

2. Any specific example of how installing programs is difficult? Have you tried your ADSL router with other distros? Why would you need build tools included for a regular desktop computer? Have you tried Automatix or Easy Ubuntu? Who needs wizards when apt will do everything for you?

3. Have you tried MEPIS? KNOPPIX? PCLinuxOS? These Linux distributions support mp3 out of the box.

Please don't base your judgment of Linux on your experience with Ubuntu. Ubuntu is just one of the many, many different Linux distributions out there. If it doesn't work for you, you are more than welcome to try others out.

Engnome
June 5th, 2006, 05:15 PM
i was reading Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll and i gotta tell you, linux ain't all that great

1. Hardware manufacturers don't even come out with linux drivers (except a few larger ones..... )

2. Installing programs is difficult as hell....... my ADSL router doesn't work under linux..... or even my 56K modem..... so i have no internet connection under linux ....so synaptic doesn't work.. ubuntu doesn't even have build tools included.... you have to go through dependency hell...... WILL SOMEONE PLEASE COME OUT WITH SOMETHING LIKE INSTALLSHIELD FOR LINUX..... i mean wizards really would be great.......

1. In what way is this linux fault?

2. I hated apt-get and synaptic to, but now I prefer it over the windows way for many reasons. Running an .exe from some site and hope it does what it should isnt as nice as synaptic wich organises everything. It isnt perfect but I like it.

I dont like wizards. Especially in windows. They do what you want, kinda but you cant really change everything the way you want it.

nickle
June 5th, 2006, 05:28 PM
I am not the most thechnically savvy person round. But I can install several distros and using the extensive wonderful documentation available on the Ubuntu site, it is possible for me to get a fully functioning multimedia system up and running in a few hours!!! Wow is all I can say.

Well the issue with hardware support is something you need to be aware of in advance and with a bit of research, it is possible to find a vast amount of hardware that is supported. As stated by others this is not a direct short-coming of linux itself!!
If your hardware is supported, the I think installing any of the better distros is easier than MS...!! Put in your disk and whatch it go. For the niggly problems that may remain, well use the forum and chances are you will sort things out quickly.
Now if you don't want to follw these few tips... well don't bother with Linux at at all... That is your choice!

meng
June 5th, 2006, 05:32 PM
i was reading Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll and i gotta tell you, linux ain't all that great.
Not all that great for you obviously, but it's wonderful for me. Why the assumption that yourTaste == myTaste?

ssam
June 5th, 2006, 06:18 PM
all the build tools are on the install cd.

in synaptic you can, mark everything you want installed, then do file -> generate package download script. the script looks like it will work on any linux computer. (on a none linux computer you could open it as a text file and download the packages listed.)

do you really have a router that wont work with linux? does it connect be ethernet? most of them you can configure with any web browser.

azazel-
June 5th, 2006, 06:27 PM
He's got a USB router. Three of his total four posts have related to him whining about said router. Not asking for help, or attempting to seek knowledge, just whining because it doesn't work.

ade234uk
June 5th, 2006, 06:39 PM
If you dont like it go back to back to Microsoft. I cant stand you moaners and groaners. Come back when you can appreciate a quality product.

aysiu
June 5th, 2006, 06:51 PM
i was reading Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll Based on what you wrote in the rest of the post, your eyes may have glanced at the Anatomy of a Well-intentioned Linux Troll thread, but you certainly didn't read everything I wrote... either that, or you simply chose to ignore it.

In any case, you don't seem that well-intentioned, unfortunately. All your points have been countered many times over--mostly in the very reading you mentioned (and didn't read). Have fun trolling. Many here will entertain you.

henriquemaia
June 5th, 2006, 07:01 PM
All these threads about Linux Suckxx or whatever name they have work like Tortuous Convolvulus' statements in the book Axterix and the Roman Agent (La Zizanie, in french, A Zaragata, in portuguese). Even though the original poster intention may be sincere in expressing his frustration about Linux, the thread starts a rather predictable flamewar on the subject.

Take a look at this page from that book to get the general feeling:


http://www.asterix.co.nz/take_a_look/romanagent/pages/page4.jpg

My point is: the community members must be wise enough to understand when they are facing a Tortuous Convolvulus-like thread. And wise enough to answer in a proper way, clarifying what needs to be clarifyied, but not falling into Tortuous Convolvulus traps.

Ps: it's NOT my intention to call the original poster Tortuous Convolvulus or accuse anyone in this thread of misbehaviour. It's just about how predictable these threads are.

pellgarlic
June 7th, 2006, 05:17 PM
the most important aspect of this is:

LINUX IS FREE! the people who work on it WORK FOR NOTHING! despite that, linux works in probably about 99% of situations, and as others have already said, the times it doesn't, is usually because of money-grabbing corporations who refuse to open up their source code. again, DESPITE THIS, many pieces of hardware are supported, purely through the hard work, dedication and altruism of linux developers. to criticise those who strive under less than ideal circumstances, and manage to do as good a job as they do (which imho is excellent - i have entirely abandoned windows, and never looked back) is utterly ignorant and unwarranted. be ashamed.

Stormy Eyes
June 7th, 2006, 05:53 PM
Oh, no, not this **** again.

curuxz
June 7th, 2006, 06:04 PM
why is this not in the backyard...

John.Michael.Kane
June 7th, 2006, 06:40 PM
Oh, no, not this **** again.


No truer words have ever been spoken

pellgarlic
June 8th, 2006, 12:10 PM
my apologies to all those who have witnessed this argument a thousand times before, for my (previous and present) contribution to yet another one.

as a new-comer to linux, i am only beginning to realise the reality of its capabilities, and the obstacles that stand in the way of its success, and as such, have a raw, fresh feeling of admiration for those who work on its development.

certainly, everyone has the right to have, and express, their own opinion, just as everyone also has the right to challenge other people's opinions if they disagree. indeed, there is no point in embarking on a flame-war along the ines of "linux is perfect, and windows is useless", or vice-versa, but i feel there is value in discussing the relative merits/flaws of whatever operating systems are available to us.

i feel the original poster had no basis for his claims, and merely sought to redress the unfairly biased assertion, although i regret the tone and overuse of capitalisation in my (previous) post.

perhaps the original post should just have been ignored in the first place, but considering that linux-users are starting off at a disadvantage (in some senses at least - financially mostly) seems a valid reason to take any opportunity to attempt to amend any unfairly negative impression of linux that presents itself.

bluenova
June 8th, 2006, 12:49 PM
17 replys in 2 days and the original poster hasn't come back, perhaps it's time to close the thread and get back to enjoying Unbuntu.

ostene
June 8th, 2006, 11:22 PM
Being my first post, I am terribly sorry if you should think it is negative, it is not, it is merely descriptive.

Before I tried to convert, my setup at home was as follows:

Computer A, an AMD (A8NE-FM mobo) box running XPH. 2 large SATA drives, one small PATA drive and a couple of . Has 2 NICs, one to connect to a local LAN switch and other computers at home, one to connect to a WLAN router, and through that one to an ADSL box to the internet.

Computer B, an old P3 box running W2K. 2 small PATA disks, and 2 network disks (NDAS, connected to the LAN switch), 2 printers and an external DVD writer. One NIC connected to the same switch as mentioned above. All the hard drives are NTFS

Situation: Wonderful, I have access to all devices from Computer A, I can access all the disks connected to Computer B, and use the printers. Internet I only access from Computer A, being a little paranoid I only enable the NIC when I need IN access. I also have a firewal in the WLAN router, and a SW FW running on Computer A.
I might also add that I run OO to do my work when at home, but since my workday is in an Windows/Office environment, I need to be compatible with my coworkers, so I also have Office 2003 running on box A, allowing me to save and bring to work any products in a format I know will work


So, I decide to try to switch to Linux, and find the release of Ubuntu 6.0.6 very interesting. I download the image and burn it onto a CD, pops it into my CD drive, it boots up and lo and behold, it actually seems to work. Lots of very useful applications, very pleasant HMI. So I decide to install. I go back to windows, move all my data off the PATA drive in box A, repartition, reboots, bring up the live CD and select install. In the process, I point to the aforementioned PATA drive, and all the othe questions asked. After about 15 minutes it is all done, and I reboot again.
The instllation even gives me a choice if I want to go windows or Ubuntu. I select Ubuntu, and very quicly, there I am, in a new world. Amazing, my wireless mouse, my monitor, my usb memory stick works perfectly. Then suddenly, I get an alert, my installation is not uptodate, so and so many files are ready for download, would I like to go ahead? Obviously the internet connection works (although this scared me some, I am used to a FW that (supposedly) will alert me whenever any process running on the PC try to access the net, and also asks me whether I will accept connections from outside). However, I put that issue aside for the time being, lets find out how I can use this envronment as a worktool.

This is where my problems begun. I tried to find and access my local WXP harddrives. Oh yes, I can see them, but when I click on them, I get the message that I am not authorised to read them. No further explanations.

Then I tried to access my local network to see the drives on my other box. No better luck, I do not see my workgroup at all. Looking at System/Administration/Networking, I found that both NICs held the same IP address, that of the WLAN router out to the IN. Trying to input the IP addres of the LAN switch, as I see it in windows did not change.

OK, I said to myself, lots of people, both friends that are Linux users, and on the web say that this is easy; you are probably stupid, go read up on this. I have now spent the best of one week trying to find answers on various webboards. The information provided basically were as follows:

Try Xubuntu
Try Kubuntu
Reinstall

or;

try this command line from the console
if that does not work try this line
or this line

My point is:

Whenever the people from the Unix community answers questions from a total newbee, it is (probably without thinking) assumed that the person asking the question has extensive knowledge about Unix, ie talking another language then the person that asked the question.

For me, being a working man, it should not be required to know too much about the OS being used, applications are the tools we use to do work, not the OS.

In my mind, Ubuntu, and Unix, as far as the Ubuntu distributions is representative, has a long way to go before it is as user friendly as any windows OS that I have used.

Unless we can have some help from non-Unix gurus as to the basic conversion, there will be no major migration.

Any takers?

Best regards,

ostene

tronica
June 8th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Not knowing exactly what your problems are, try this guide for dapper. Very handy and easy to understand.

http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Dapper

az
June 8th, 2006, 11:33 PM
. I tried to find and access my local WXP harddrives. Oh yes, I can see them, but when I click on them, I get the message that I am not authorised to read them. No further explanations.


System - Administration - Disks. You should be asked for the password and you should be able to mount your drives and look at them.

Yes, this could probably be simpler.


.
Then I tried to access my local network to see the drives on my other box. No better luck, I do not see my workgroup at all. Looking at System/Administration/Networking, I found that both NICs held the same IP address, that of the WLAN router out to the IN. Trying to input the IP addres of the LAN switch, as I see it in windows did not change.
.

Your router gave out the same ip address to two boxes? Not Ubuntu's fault. It uses dhcp by default. You can use a static address, if you want.


.
OK, I said to myself, lots of people, both friends that are Linux users, and on the web say that this is easy; you are probably stupid, go read up on this. I have now spent the best of one week trying to find answers on various webboards. The information provided basically were as follows:

Try Xubuntu
Try Kubuntu
Reinstall

or;

try this command line from the console
if that does not work try this line
or this line

My point is:

Whenever the people from the Unix community answers questions from a total newbee, it is (probably without thinking) assumed that the person asking the question has extensive knowledge about Unix, ie talking another language then the person that asked the question.
.

Not really so anymore. Or not nearly as much. This is true of linux adoption in the past, but the non-technical userbase is growing and the documentation and help is growing along with it, too.


.
For me, being a working man, it should not be required to know too much about the OS being used, applications are the tools we use to do work, not the OS.

In my mind, Ubuntu, and Unix, as far as the Ubuntu distributions is representative, has a long way to go before it is as user friendly as any windows OS that I have used.

Unless we can have some help from non-Unix gurus as to the basic conversion, there will be no major migration.

Any takers?

Best regards,

ostene

Well it does what it does very well. It does not do a lot of stuff that windows does, but likewise, windows cannot do a lot of stuff that linux or ubuntu can do. It is what it is.

It is developing quite rapidly, though.

aysiu
June 8th, 2006, 11:34 PM
I am terribly sorry if you should think it is negative, it is not, it is merely descriptive. If you'd included only the first half of your post, this would be true. But you chose to go on, and this is where it gets negative:

My point is:

Whenever the people from the Unix community answers questions from a total newbee, it is (probably without thinking) assumed that the person asking the question has extensive knowledge about Unix, ie talking another language then the person that asked the question. I don't see how you can make that generalization, since you have only one post on the Ubuntu Forums, so you obviously asked for help elsewhere. I think, especially in the Absolute Beginner forums, where you're posting this thread, people seldom make the assumption new users have "extensive knowledge about Unix."



For me, being a working man, it should not be required to know too much about the OS being used, applications are the tools we use to do work, not the OS. Learning a new operating system is like learning a new language. If you're a working man who doesn't have time to learn a new language... don't learn a new operating system.



In my mind, Ubuntu, and Unix, as far as the Ubuntu distributions is representative, has a long way to go before it is as user friendly as any windows OS that I have used. Yes, because the only thing that's stopping hoards of people from using Ubuntu is the inability to see a Windows partition (Why aren't they all using Knoppix, then?)



Unless we can have some help from non-Unix gurus as to the basic conversion, there will be no major migration.

Any takers? Sure. Read this (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017) and this (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktop).

I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish with this thread, but if you want help, people will be more than willing to help you. Ask a question. Don't make generalizations about Ubuntu and "Unix gurus" based on your limited experience.

kwaanens
June 8th, 2006, 11:40 PM
<snip> All the hard drives are NTFS (...) I tried to find and access my local WXP harddrives. Oh yes, I can see them, but when I click on them, I get the message that I am not authorised to read them. No further explanations.

That's because MS owns NTFS, and you could seriously screw NTFS-partitions up if you write to them from Ubuntu. ntfsprogs will let you *read* them. Install it via Synaptic.
(On another note, do you think Windows will be able to do much with ext2 or 3? Hint: no! If you want to share between the two, use FAT)


Obviously the internet connection works (although this scared me some, I am used to a FW that (supposedly) will alert me whenever any process running on the PC try to access the net, and also asks me whether I will accept connections from outside).

No need to worry, you are already firewalled. If you want to customize the firewall, install and use Firestarter (again, via Synaptic)


Whenever the people from the Unix community answers questions from a total newbee, it is (probably without thinking) assumed that the person asking the question has extensive knowledge about Unix, ie talking another language then the person that asked the question.

Linux is not Unix. Try to wikipedia this, and see for yourself.


For me, being a working man, it should not be required to know too much about the OS being used, applications are the tools we use to do work, not the OS.

That's because you're accustomed to Windows, not because "Linux is hard".


In my mind, Ubuntu, and Unix, as far as the Ubuntu distributions is representative, has a long way to go before it is as user friendly as any windows OS that I have used.

Unless we can have some help from non-Unix gurus as to the basic conversion, there will be no major migration.

Please don't consider this offensive, cause I'm not trying to be. Check out this thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017

- Ketil, Linux user for 2 years, a total newbie then, really comfortable 4-6 months later. I'm not going back!

aysiu
June 8th, 2006, 11:43 PM
- Ketil, Linux user for 2 years, a total newbie then, really comfortable 4-6 months later. I'm not going back! aysiu, Linux user for one year and a two months. I was "really comfortable" probably after three months, I think.

I have to go back... for work. At home, I'm Ubuntu all the way, though.

P.S. What's NIC?

nalmeth
June 9th, 2006, 12:11 AM
When I read the title of your thread I was going in with the assumption that you had some serious, concrete problems, having tried a number of solutions only to find that a hardware device is simply unsupported, or something similar to this. It does happen.

People tend to find it necessary to leave a parting message to the users who browse around in these forums on their freetime. They think they are delivering a message to linux developers, whomever they assume them to be.

You were much more well-mannered than most are. I wouldn't call you a troll, even if your post has suggestions of the practice.

I can see that you went in with the expectation that Ubuntu was a professional Operating System, and it would set things up correctly out of the box.

I think this is an indication of the growth linux has seen in the past years, especially since your presumption was correct, even if it wasn't very clear at first.

Don't take that Anatomy of a linux Troll to heart personally, because you're not quite guilty of what finally waranted aysiu to write that excellent thread.

But seriously, this is your first post on the forums? You must have gotten this "install kubuntu install xubuntu reinstall" advice elsewhere. This is pointless advice too, because there's nothing wrong with your system.

Let's put this thread to rest before it grows pointlessly long. Use the forums to ask for help. Hardware problems, there is a hardware section. There's a section for all your problems, post in the relevant section to get the best help.

If you want to make a statement about the maturity of linux, and the habits of users who volunteer their freetime to help eachother out, there is a Community Chat section. You can start a lengthy discussion there.

Just remember that though. We are not Canonical employees, we are not Ubuntu Developers. We are regular users who have picked up Ubuntu just like you have, and we come here on our own will to help eachother out, and engage in the community. As a result, there are thousands of people, all ranging in technical expertise. You don't need to bait people in to get help. People will help you anyway.

Stew2
June 9th, 2006, 12:21 AM
aysiu, Linux user for one year and a two months. I was "really comfortable" probably after three months, I think.

I have to go back... for work. At home, I'm Ubuntu all the way, though.

P.S. What's NIC?

Network interface card. Computers that dont have an ethernet jack on the motherboard require one for broadband. It plugs into a PCI slot on the motherboard. Most computers built within the last two years or so have it integrated into the motherboard. :D

aysiu
June 9th, 2006, 12:23 AM
Thanks for the explanation. Now I know.

Stew2
June 9th, 2006, 12:29 AM
Thanks for the explanation. Now I know.

No problem. I know more about hardware than I know about ubuntu, but I am learning ubuntu and loving every minute of it. :D

richbarna
June 9th, 2006, 12:38 AM
I can't add to what aysiu and nalmeth have said because they have both hit the proverbial nail on the head.
One thing though, I have seen a few of these posts now, and it just dawned on me how many unhappy users complain HERE (First And Only Post) about the way they are treated on OTHER forums.
What's bugging me is why didn't they come here first ?, and why don't they complain on the forum that was unhelpful to them ?.

Overall the guy wasn't abusive (which is different), he seemes to know a bit about computers (albeit Windows not Linux), and I just feel it's a shame that a Computer user misses the chance to use a good operating system like Ubuntu due to a lack of forum research.

I must admit that "most" Linux forums are full of bad advice and unhelpful users etc. and I think that here at ubuntuforums we take it for granted how good this community really is.

xael
June 9th, 2006, 12:45 AM
nalmeth's absolutely correct when saying people will help you anyway, b/c that's the power of the community, we always try to help, no matter what, maybe we don't have the right answer, but at least you get an answer or two or a lot . :D

Kilz
June 9th, 2006, 12:55 AM
nalmeth's absolutely correct when saying people will help you anyway, b/c that's the power of the community, we always try to help, no matter what, maybe we don't have the right answer, but at least you get an answer or two or a lot . :D
I think that one of the greatest assets that Ubuntu has is the community and the way people try and help. But I do think that the OP should have read Linux is not Windows. (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm) He wasn't a troll, but he did have a few misconceptions.

aysiu
June 9th, 2006, 02:43 AM
One thing though, I have seen a few of these posts now, and it just dawned on me how many unhappy users complain HERE (First And Only Post) about the way they are treated on OTHER forums.
What's bugging me is why didn't they come here first ?, and why don't they complain on the forum that was unhelpful to them ?. I'm with you on this. This isn't the first time I've seen this happen. And I do spend a little time on other Linux forums, and the Ubuntu parts of them are pretty sad. New users get "helped" out by people who don't even use Ubuntu. These "old" users don't understand that Ubuntu uses sudo instead of root, or that Ubuntu and Xubuntu are not different distros.

A lot of people who help in the Ubuntu subforums of other more general Linux forums usually are Gentoo, Fedora, or Slackware users--not Ubuntu users.

morequarky
June 9th, 2006, 08:20 AM
](*,) I understand the original poster.

I am a linux newbie, but I have a secret. I have a CS degree from a Debian linux loving school. My school had Debian routers that was not rebooted for over a year. I had an account on a Debian server during college for small, extremely small, programming assignments. I learned what ls, cp, mv, mkdir ment and that was about it. People at my school preached linux was the best of the best to anyone in ear shot endlessly.

But I didn't want to use it. Generally it was too complicated and the gnome I saw at that time I didn't like. But customization and control I liked and I didn't have any far out expectations about Debian. I knew it didn't work on some hardware and it gets stuff done in a different way.

After ignoring my degree and ignoring linux for a while I heard about ubuntu. So I tried it out. I expected issues. I expected it to not work. I didn't have lofty expectations about Linux and no one should.

Today, I use Ubuntu exclusively on my desktop. And I will be installing linux on my PDA sometime in the future.

I still have a lot to learn about Linux. Where stuff is and how to modify it to make it do what I want.

Good Luck with Windows. I hope you don't get a lot of viruses.

Carrots171
June 9th, 2006, 09:27 AM
When you buy a Windows PC from the store, everything is installed and configured for you. In my experience, installing Windows or Linux from scratch can involve a lot of installation/configuration. I've seen a Windows installation go without a hitch. I've also seen one involving unsupported hardware and tedious driver installation. I've seen the same things happen with Linux installations, too. Linux isn't amazingly better than Windows, and it isn't a lot worse, either. When someone overhypes and over-touts Linux, I can understand why others can end up disappointed. Sometimes, however, someone may think that Linux is really easy to install. When I built my computer, I asked the people at the store whether the hardware was compatible with Linux before I bought it. Linux installed flawlessly. I didn't realize that Linux could be very difficult to install until I installed it on a friend's computer.

aysiu
June 9th, 2006, 07:14 PM
When someone overhypes and over-touts Linux, I can understand why others can end up disappointed. That's why I created the Is Ubuntu for You? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315) thread, which, ironically enough ends up encouraging people to use Ubuntu, even though the tone of the initial post sounds discouraging.

I think if people hear the upsides and the downsides together, they feel they're getting the whole picture, and there's a little element of challenge, "So it'll basically be a good thing, but it might take some work. Okay. I can do this."

If they hear all good, they may be a little skeptical, but they'll go ahead and try it with this attitude, "Wow. That sounds great. Okay. Let's see how it does."

The second attitude is far more likely to lead to those stupid threads that say, "Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Blah blah blah and blah didn't work. Ubuntu isn't for human beings. This will never take off. This isn't easy. I'm going back to Windows."

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 06:02 AM
I post here on behalf of everyone who uses Windows every day, on behalf of everyone who doesn't even know what a forum is, on behalf of everyone who doesn't know anything outside of Dell. Most of all, I post here on behalf of anyone who's tried Ubuntu and yelled "it deleted my Microsoft!" after finding that the installation did, indeed, delete their 'Microsoft.'

I am an office worker, a student, a farmer. I have no idea how a computer works, and I don't care to learn. Before you even try to argue at me, let's see you figure out how many unprecedented staff absences will occur during my ninety-day project, tell me whether it's the z line or m line that lies between the i band in skeletal muscles' myofibrils, or even inform me on how long I should go before my cow stops giving me colostrum. Oh, and do it without using your computer. Let's see you memorize it just like you did with all of your commands.

There's a reason I use Windows. It doesn't demand that I learn a second profession just to check my email or watch a video. I come here and ask you a question - the first thing you say is "Open the terminal." I don't know what a terminal is, and I have no idea what "sudo" means. You say to me "But I would still choose a 'buggy' Ubuntu over a virus infested, expensive, controlled OS like Windows." Well, I wouldn't. You see, I work in an office and don't have enough time between managing my employees and meeting project deadlines to learn everything you know. I go to school and I plan on being your doctor someday. Right now, though, my only ambition is to use my webcam... as soon as it works. And you know, I'd really like to be able to watch that video my son sent me, but my computer just says it can't play it. Back when I was using Windows, none of these were problems. You guys have been great about it. I found your online forum and asked a few questions, got a few problems fixed, and (sadly) got told a few of my gadgets wouldn't work on Ubuntu. Really, you guys have been great, but I just don't have time to deal with all this. I have my own work to do.

You say "I have actually seen a post where someone chose Windows over Ubuntu because of a $5 webcam!" I'm sure you have. I like my webcam just as much as he likes his. I like all of my stuff, and I like all of my stuff to work as soon as I plug it in. Like I said, I don't have time to do any of that fancy stuff, just like you don't have time to milk your own cow. "I also think that too many people want every piece of obscure hardware to be instantly recognized for free, without the help of companies like "CANON" and "LOGITECH" and their proprietary drivers." Well, yeah. I definitely want that. I finally got a chance to get out of my dorm to head down to CompUSA for a better printer. I want it to work, and I want it to work without having to tinker with it.

I tell you that my computer doesn't work with Ubuntu, and you reply "My version of Dapper is far from 'broken,' in fact it is bloody 'amazing' considering that it is free!" Thanks for making it free, but I still can't use it. I'll gladly write whatever prescription you need as soon as you learn enough about your own body. Likewise, I'll let you come milk my cow for free if you'll feed it and take care of it - and make sure to process it before you drink it, too.

What's wrong, are you mad at me or something? You yell, "Really, I'm getting so incredibly tired of all these stupid, most of the time totally unsubstantiated rants, I can't even begin to describe it." Fine, then. I'm not going to argue against it. It's just that it isn't Ubuntu anymore.

"The Ubuntu community is built on the ideas enshrined in the Ubuntu Philosophy: that software should be available free of charge, that software tools should be usable by people in their local language and despite any disabilities, and that people should have the freedom to customize and alter their software in whatever way they see fit." It should be useable by people. Right now, it's only useable by those who know Linux. All your office workers, students, and farmers are left out. I'm not sorry I don't understand how computers work just like you're not sorry that you can't understand my anatomy book. I'm never going to expect you to learn to be a farm hand, and you can't expect me to ever learn just what makes that big, gray box tick.

This isn't a damnation or even a critique. Just remember this, next time you tell someone that a requested feature to make Ubuntu easier and more robust is "stupid" because you know how Linux works, ask first if you can manage a workgroup of employees, make a diagnosis for a patient, or build a bag of feed for your animals. The next time you tell someone his idea is "stupid" because you know how to do it manually, ask yourself if you knew how to do it the first time you ever saw a computer.

woedend
June 10th, 2006, 06:20 AM
That's your choice. My brother just finished medical school in may, I know the time drain required, not enough to fiddle around on computers. The problem as you stated is that you don't care to learn(and probably don't have all the time needed to). And, for that reason, windows really is better for you...hopefully in the future that will change though. You don't need to defend yourself with knowledge of farming and medicine...it's quite a feat(both), but just because you don't care to learn computers doesn't make us think of you as stupid, just as me not wanting to learn medicine hopefully in your eyes doesn't make me look stupid to you. All in all a good write up though, and something that comes up all too often. Hopefully it can be more user friendly in the future.

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 06:30 AM
That's your choice. My brother just finished medical school in may, I know the time drain required, not enough to fiddle around on computers. The problem as you stated is that you don't care to learn(and probably don't have all the time needed to). And, for that reason, windows really is better for you...hopefully in the future that will change though. You don't need to defend yourself with knowledge of farming and medicine...it's quite a feat(both), but just because you don't care to learn computers doesn't make us think of you as stupid, just as me not wanting to learn medicine hopefully in your eyes doesn't make me look stupid to you. All in all a good write up though, and something that comes up all too often. Hopefully it can be more user friendly in the future.
If it comes up so often, why do you keep saying "alright, then go away, use Windows." Isn't that the opposite of what's supposed to be happening?

What ever happened to "software tools should be useable by people?"

aysiu
June 10th, 2006, 06:32 AM
Buy a System 76 laptop and then complain.

Also, try giving people point-and-click instructions. After you do it for a while, you'll realize why people say "open a terminal."

I don't pretend to learn French and then complain when I have to actually put time into learning it. Don't pretend to learn Ubuntu and then complain about having to put time into learning it. If you're happy with Windows, use it. No one's twisting your arm.

We're all volunteers here, and if you don't like the help you get, leave.

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 06:35 AM
Buy a System 76 laptop and then complain.

Also, try giving people point-and-click instructions. After you do it for a while, you'll realize why people say "open a terminal."
And then what of "software should be available free of charge?" How does that fit in if everyone has to buy your computers in order to really be considered users?

And once again, what ever happened to "software tools should be useable by people?"

woedend
June 10th, 2006, 06:38 AM
Because linux is not windows. You had to learn to use windows. You have to learn how to use ubuntu. They work in very different ways. If you don't care to learn, then windows is better for you. I don't hate windows, and I don't make ubuntu. I volunteer to help. If you had a question, I would answer it. But if you are saying that ubuntu doesnt work for you, then don't use it - use windows.

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 06:44 AM
Because linux is not windows. You had to learn to use windows. You have to learn how to use ubuntu. They work in very different ways. If you don't care to learn, then windows is better for you. I don't hate windows, and I don't make ubuntu. I volunteer to help. If you had a question, I would answer it. But if you are saying that ubuntu doesnt work for you, then don't use it - use windows. This isn't about me. I know at least enough about Linux to use Ubuntu. This is about everyone who doesn't. I'm someone who wanted to help, too. I'm no coder, so I just donated. You said your brother just finished medical school and had no time to play with his computer. Are you saying he should never be able to use Ubuntu?

They never had to learn how to use Windows. Everything from first boot to playing their favorite game was "follow the bouncing ball, click OK." and for that matter, OSX isn't Windows, either, but it's still even easier for a lot of people to use.

There's a whole version of Ubuntu meant for kids. What about that?

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 06:50 AM
I recently read the faux-suggestion "build-essential comes standard (just kidding)." This is a great example of Ubuntu being built for Linux users.

A lot of the people making suggestions are those who've already used Linux. If Ubuntu is to become an operating system for people, it needs to cater to people. Some suggestions follow, including a few that have already been posted. This isn't really a discussion about the exact suggestions per-se, but more of a discussion on suggestions that cater to new users.

Boot Camp - Macs can do Windows, too. Sadly, Windows is something that people need to use. Macs used to have VirtualPC, and now they have Boot Camp. Unless I'm a business user with Unix-based computers (in which case Ubuntu isn't at the moment the distribution I'd have due to reasons outlined in other suggestion topics), I also need a copy of Windows for some things. Ubuntu isn't OSX, and it doesn't have some of the software that Windows and OSX users do. Until there are Ubuntu alternatives for everything, and I mean everything, people are going to need Windows. And they have no idea how to dual-boot. OSX users will be lucky, as they'll probably be able to dual, triple, quad, etc. boot with Ubuntu when Boot Camp is done. For the rest of us, there's nothing that we know how to use. Don't say GRUB or LILO - the average person doesn't know how to use that.

Click'N'Run - The easy way to get Linux software. Too bad it costs money... and only works if you buy the operating system. Even worse, it appears to be the only Linux OS that lets people do such a thing. Everyone else has to do something like apt-get, and the average user has no idea how that works. Once the terminal is open, they're essentially a speech-to-text translator for the person helping them. They don't know what's going on, and they just hope to have their computers working. Right now, Ubuntu acts much like the Windows Vista MSDN beta, OpenSUSE, the OSX Darwin distribution, and Freespire. There's no user version.

Again, these suggestions are more about the principle than anything else. Freely-avaliable software for these two is going to surface soon. I don't know about Boot Camp, but GRUB 2 is supposed to be easy to the level of "look at the pretty keys go jingle jingle," and CNR will be made open-source and free in terms of the client software.

aysiu
June 10th, 2006, 06:52 AM
I guess all my co-workers must have been born knowing to press Control-Alt-Delete when an application is frozen.

woedend
June 10th, 2006, 06:54 AM
Its rather simple.
If you want to use ubuntu, you can. If you want windows, you can't.
I was FORCED into linux when I couldn't reinstall windows xp, and didn't want to buy it. So ubuntu got me into a gui...great. Sound didn't work. Neither did internet. I TOOK THE INITIATIVE to read and learn how to do things. And now, it's second nature to me, and I have trouble doing some things in windows! It took me minutes to find the workgroup name in windows because I didn't know how. In ubuntu it takes me about 2 seconds. So yes, you do have to learn in window. It was painful for about 2 days beginning into ubuntu, then things became easier. I still learn a lot now, I'm nowhere near a genius at this stuff. Windows does some things easier. Ubuntu does some things easier.
As for my brother. He was never big into computers and still isn't. It's more of interest than being able to. Anyone who wants to can use linux...plain and simple(of course, assuming essential hardware works).

aysiu
June 10th, 2006, 06:58 AM
You must be pretty happy with Dapper's new Desktop CD, then, as it configures a dual-boot without asking you anything about Grub. It uses Grub, but it doesn't tell you it's installing it to the MBR to configure a dual-boot.

By the way, I've read manuals for Boot Camp--it seems a very difficult program to use. I wouldn't recommend it to people who find Ubuntu too difficult to install.

Read this and tell me we need an "easy way to get Linux software."
http://www.monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing

Incidentally, I've read all the posts of yours on this forum, and all of them show you have a chip on your shoulder. You never asked for help here. You never had a reason to be so angry or frustrated with the other users on this forum.

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 06:58 AM
Its rather simple.
If you want to use ubuntu, you can. If you want windows, you can't.
I was FORCED into linux when I couldn't reinstall windows xp, and didn't want to buy it. So ubuntu got me into a gui...great. Sound didn't work. Neither did internet. I TOOK THE INITIATIVE to read and learn how to do things. And now, it's second nature to me, and I have trouble doing some things in windows! It took me minutes to find the workgroup name in windows because I didn't know how. In ubuntu it takes me about 2 seconds. So yes, you do have to learn in window. It was painful for about 2 days beginning into ubuntu, then things became easier. I still learn a lot now, I'm nowhere near a genius at this stuff. Windows does some things easier. Ubuntu does some things easier.
As for my brother. He was never big into computers and still isn't. It's more of interest than being able to. Anyone who wants to can use linux...plain and simple(of course, assuming essential hardware works).
That's great. I also took the initiative and got everything necessary to work. I could've done that with any distribution.

Every other distribution is for computer people. Isn't Ubuntu supposed to be for just people?

Again, you're just saying "if you don't like everything about it, leave." My reply is this: "put that on the front page in place of the current introduction."

npodges
June 10th, 2006, 07:00 AM
Ubuntu is actually very good at detecting other operating systems at install. and i know you said "dont say grub," but the end user doesnt have to set anything up. After you install ubuntu, it detects your windows partition and it still boots perfectly fine. it's actually a lot better(and easier) than the windows boot loader. i've never used boot camp, so i cant comment on that.

have you tried installing ubuntu on a system with windows? if so, what did you find difficult about the setup of the dual boot?

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 07:05 AM
You must be pretty happy with Dapper's new Desktop CD, then, as it configures a dual-boot without asking you anything about Grub. It uses Grub, but it doesn't tell you it's installing it to the MBR to configure a dual-boot.

By the way, I've read manuals for Boot Camp--it seems a very difficult program to use. I wouldn't recommend it to people who find Ubuntu too difficult to install.

Read this and tell me we need an "easy way to get Linux software."
http://www.monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing

Incidentally, I've read all the posts of yours on this forum, and all of them show you have a chip on your shoulder. You never asked for help here. You never had a reason to be so angry or frustrated with the other users on this forum.
1. Not everyone has any idea how to setup Ubuntu, even with the current installer.

2. Boot Camp is a beta, read again about GRUB 2.

3. Flash, etc. And yes, I know about Flash 9.

4. Ubuntu works great for me, but I'm a computer person. I'd be using it right now, but I need a couple things on this Windows computer.


Ubuntu is actually very good at detecting other operating systems at install. and i know you said "dont say grub," but the end user doesnt have to set anything up. After you install ubuntu, it detects your windows partition and it still boots perfectly fine. it's actually a lot better(and easier) than the windows boot loader. i've never used boot camp, so i cant comment on that.

have you tried installing ubuntu on a system with windows? if so, what did you find difficult about the setup of the dual boot?
I personally think Ubuntu's great. I'm happy to use it rather than NTLDR. Boot Camp's not wonderful at the moment, but it's supposed to get to the pinnacle of ease later in development.

It's just, if this is supposed to be Linux for everybody...

Hobbes
June 10th, 2006, 07:05 AM
And once again, what ever happened to "software tools should be useable by people?"

Look, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you are wrong, but only to try to get you to look at this problem in a slightly different way, which I think is the goal of some of the other posters but as of yet they have not succeeded.

That being said, I have a roomate who is pre-med, and one who raises cows in Indiana. They have used my computer, while it was running ubuntu, to check their e-mail, use aim (gaim), look up things on the internet, type a document and print it, watch dvds, the list goes on. I never told them how to do any of this, they figured it out just by clicking on things and doing what seemed natural. In that sense, I believe Ubuntu is becoming very user-friendly.

Do I think that if I just gave them an install cd, they could install it, have all the programs they wanted, and a working knowledge of the system without ever looking up things on the internet, poking around a bit in the help files or manuals, even perhaps using the terminal if instructed how to do so? No I don't. But the amount of work required to learn how to set-up and use ubuntu, especially with a generally supportive and usually very helpful community in the forums, is really not all that high. If they had never seen a computer before, and I handed them a windows cd, I certainly wouldn't expect them to be able to figure everything out instantly either. Setting up a machine is different then using one, and is slightly harder on either a Windows or Ubuntu system than just using one that has previously been set up.

You can't instantly become an expert on anything, and Ubuntu is not magic, so it cannot do every single thing you want it to, especially if you are not willing to learn some simple things about it.

If I have a cut and a doctor gives me a band-aid, assuming I've never seen one before, I could sit there and complain that the band-aid isn't putting itself on me, or that the doctor didn't do it for me, but does that mean that the band-aid isn't an easy-to-use, effective tool? All I have to do is ask the doctor how it works and within seconds I can use band-aid's effectively forever, and even help someone out if they don't know how. Alternatively, if I am too stubborn to ask for help I could try to figure it out on my own, and I might rip the bandage in the process, but I think given at least a couple tries I could probably get it.

That's what Ubuntu is like in my mind. Yes as of now you might have to resort to the terminal for some fixes. But the fact that you can say the words sudo and terminal to me implies that you could go to the applications menu, click it, and find a program called terminal (considering you apparently find Windows so easy to use). You can clearly type so I hope it will not be too difficult to type in the exact words someone tells you to.

Anyway, you are right that not everyone in the world can install and use ubuntu to do whatever they want, and maybe someday it will be that way, but that day is a ways off. So for now, saying over and over again, "what about your philosophy," might start to annoy some people (not me though). You are certainly welcome to help make Ubuntu that way if you have suggestions, otherwise perhaps you should just wait until that part of the philosophy is acheived in your mind.

Well those are some thoughts, probably not all of them apply but I am just trying to engage and help where I can. Thanks for listening if you made it this far :)

woedend
June 10th, 2006, 07:06 AM
I don't feel this conversation is going anywhere...maybe I am missing your point?
Did I ever say "If you don't like everything about it, leave"? Us users here have in incentive to keep users away from windows. It's not a threat for them to say that, it's their choice. Nobody comes here saying their webcam doesn't work and is replied "USE WINDOWS n00B".
Every other distro is nothing like ubuntu. Comparing to gentoo, arch, or to an extent even debian linux, ubuntu seems very people friendly to me. With dapper, I put the cd in, pick a couple choices, it tells me its installing, it then tells me to take the cd out so it can reboot, it comes back, asks for the name and pw, and takes me into a graphical interface I can play with. The web browser is right there and so is email...and games. That's a bit like windows I suppose.
But again, what I want to know is, what exactly are you trying to say?

npodges
June 10th, 2006, 07:07 AM
Have you installed dapper drake ever?

there is not a simpler installer on the market for any operating system period.

it guides you through a few simple questions in a nice GUI(the actual operating system)

then, it copies all of the files in about 15 minutes. when you reboot, it works.

I dont understand your complaint. maybe you could clarify.

aysiu
June 10th, 2006, 07:07 AM
I think you're missing out on something big here.

Ordinary people don't install Windows.
Why would they install Ubuntu?

Ordinary people who don't have time to learn computers don't install operating systems. They pay a company like Dell or System 76 to install it for them. Or they have a more computer-savvy friend install it for them.

Your ideas don't seem to have an awareness of what needs to be improved. What concrete suggestions do you have for improving the dual-boot process? Have you filed bug reports on these? Do you know that the Ubuntu developers don't read these forums?

Please read this guide, and tell me if it gets any simpler. I can promise you (having installed Windows 2000 and Windows XP myself), that Windows never even comes close to how easy an installation Ubuntu gives you.
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/windowstoubuntu.html

Hobbes
June 10th, 2006, 07:08 AM
p.s. multiple posts between when i started and finished writing my last one, so probably even less applies now sorry!

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 07:13 AM
Look, I'm not trying to say I'm right and you are wrong, but only to try to get you to look at this problem in a slightly different way, which I think is the goal of some of the other posters but as of yet they have not succeeded.

[...]

Well those are some thoughts, probably not all of them apply but I am just trying to engage and help where I can. Thanks for listening if you made it this far :)No, no, that's exactly my point. Since Ubuntu came out, it's become by far the easiest Linux distribution to use. A lot of the ideas to make it easier, however, are being shot down by experts who don't themselves need it.


I don't feel this conversation is going anywhere...maybe I am missing your point?

[...]

But again, what I want to know is, what exactly are you trying to say? In one sentence, and not directed toward any particular member:

"Stop saying no to every idea just because you yourself don't need it."

aysiu
June 10th, 2006, 07:16 AM
By the way, I've written a bunch of threads that address many of your concerns:

Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux troll (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=58017)
Rant: attitude makes a big difference (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=98623)
Random Musings on Intuitiveness, Ease of Use, and User-friendliness (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=181677)
Is Ubuntu for you? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)
What's better than whining on the forums? Making a difference... (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)
What does "for human beings" mean? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=70603)
Defining "Just works" (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=137729)
What does "ready for the desktop" really mean, anyway? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=113874)

You seem to have this weird notion that everyone here is an expert. That's not true at all. Many users, like myself, are just normal power users--computer-savvy enough they we are willing to install and configure an operating system ourselves, but we're otherwise normal users.

I'm not a programmer. I'm not a system administrator. I don't know anything about networking or securing a server. I don't know how to write code.

I'm glad there are users here who are experts, but we do come from all sorts of backgrounds. Some are teachers. Some are truck drivers. I work in an admissions office. Yes, some people do program, but that doesn't mean they're not helpful to new users--quite the contrary, if you hang around the Absolute Beginners section, you'll see.

I've been using Ubuntu only a year now (and two weeks). Appreciate the diversity that's this community. Don't project your own ideas on to what's really there.

woedend
June 10th, 2006, 07:20 AM
In that case, I completely AGREE! Any new feature is fine...especially if it makes things easier. I would just hope that they include the option to disable/remove/avoid using said feature so that the more savvy of users(hey, we are people too!) can be happy too.

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 07:21 AM
I think you're missing out on something big here.

Ordinary people don't install Windows.
Why would they install Ubuntu?

Ordinary people who don't have time to learn computers don't install operating systems. They pay a company like Dell or System 76 to install it for them. Or they have a more computer-savvy friend install it for them.

Your ideas don't seem to have an awareness of what needs to be improved. What concrete suggestions do you have for improving the dual-boot process? Have you filed bug reports on these? Do you know that the Ubuntu developers don't read these forums?

Please read this guide, and tell me if it gets any simpler. I can promise you (having installed Windows 2000 and Windows XP myself), that Windows never even comes close to how easy an installation Ubuntu gives you.
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/windowstoubuntu.html
That's just it: ordinary people don't install Ubuntu.

And this isn't for the developers, but the forum members who say "no" to every idea that they themselves don't need. Again, it's not about these two specific features.

Hobbes
June 10th, 2006, 07:21 AM
Well I will agree with you that it is a little difficult to understand how to even suggest ideas.

I myself am as of now a little confused on this front (though i am sure with a little research I could fairly easily get the gist of it), but I do know that it is not primarily on this forum that ideas are either accepted or rejected; discussed (which includes people suggesting and shooting down ideas, to be sure), but not actually officially recommended to the developers.

The way that I see it actually working out, which I suppose is not that bad, is that users here can suggest ideas, most of which probably have been heard before, or have good reasons why they might not work right now, but in any case, the forum readers who help develop more directly can see the ones they find compelling and then try to get the coders on board (via w/e launchpad/list, etc channel).

As much as I'd like to see the developers seeing all the suggestions of all the users (even non-forum users) directly, with the small amount of developers there are, I can also see why this is not really feasible, and in the end would waste more time and get even less features and usability into the releases.

aysiu
June 10th, 2006, 07:21 AM
A lot of the ideas to make it easier, however, are being shot down by experts who don't themselves need it. I'm sorry--you keep saying this. What examples do you have of this?

npodges
June 10th, 2006, 07:23 AM
you generalize, and think you're making points. then, in response all anyone can give is a general response about their use.

Why don't you name something you actually have a problem with specifically..

you keep saying it's so much harder. i really would beg to differ.

It's hard to tell what you're actually complaining about.

Everyone here just tries to be reasonable in responding to you, but when you ask, but dont listen to any responses because you're so set in your ideas, the only remaining thing to say is "well if you dont want it, dont use it," which seems to be what you're getting.

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 07:25 AM
I'm sorry--you keep saying this. What examples do you have of this?They're in the original post. All of the quotes are taken from the forums. This isn't a general bashing on everyone here.

npodges
June 10th, 2006, 07:26 AM
then what features is it about? when he said "ordinary people don't install..." he was pointing out the error in your reasoning.

you say ubuntu is too hard for joe shmo to install, but you use windows as your benchmark of the way it should be.

joe shmo would have a much harder time installing windows than he would ubuntu.

aysiu
June 10th, 2006, 07:32 AM
And this isn't for the developers, but the forum members who say "no" to every idea that they themselves don't need. Again, it's not about these two specific features. Please give examples of this.

It may have happened a few times, but I don't see this as a prevalent behavior in the forums. Also, people are entitled to their opinions. No one has veto power any more than someone else.

Just because one person says, "No, that doesn't suit my needs," it doesn't mean that someone else can't say "Yes, that suits my needs just fine."

And we aren't developers, so who cares if we say "no" or "yes," unless we're filing bug reports or forwarding requests on to the developers' mailing lists?

If anything, I've seen Ubuntu moving toward being more and more new-user-friendly... not less and less. With every release from Warty to Hoary to Breezy to Dapper, new features have focused on making things simpler, more point-and-click, and... even resorting to balloons and pop-ups.

rcarring
June 10th, 2006, 07:33 AM
Windows Vista makes Ubuntu as easy as pie to install.

After spending an afternoon fighting with Beta 2 to try and get the bloody thing installed:

a) if a partition changes places at boot time, vista complains it can't find its windows install.wim and aborts
b) ok, so I reconfigure all my drives, change letters, install it to a hard coded drive which retains the same letter when booting -- cannot load /windows/system32/winload.exe -- no command prompt, nothing.
c) maybe it wants a primary, stick it on my external usb drive and make the primary partition active on it -- nope, cannot find install.wim as the drive changes places
d) at one stage i had to go out, left the machine copying 14gb of data from one drive to another just to make space

OK,well I am now back running Dapper.

Dapper Drake installs, and even when it doesn't you can get a shell up and fix it. Win Vista laughs at people like me with 256mb ram (the reason I couldn't boot the os, it will let you install on 256mb but not run), it laughs at people who cannot afford a new laptop, and most of all, it isn't that different from XP SP2.

Dapper is for users, Dapper is for the people, by the people who make it for people to use and enjoy.

Peace.

aysiu
June 10th, 2006, 07:38 AM
These are the only quotations from your original post:


it deleted my Microsoft!

Open the terminal

But I would still choose a 'buggy' Ubuntu over a virus infested, expensive, controlled OS like Windows.

I have actually seen a post where someone chose Windows over Ubuntu because of a $5 webcam!

I also think that too many people want every piece of obscure hardware to be instantly recognized for free, without the help of companies like "CANON" and "LOGITECH" and their proprietary drivers.

My version of Dapper is far from 'broken,' in fact it is bloody 'amazing' considering that it is free!

Really, I'm getting so incredibly tired of all these stupid, most of the time totally unsubstantiated rants, I can't even begin to describe it.

The Ubuntu community is built on the ideas enshrined in the Ubuntu Philosophy: that software should be available free of charge, that software tools should be usable by people in their local language and despite any disabilities, and that people should have the freedom to customize and alter their software in whatever way they see fit.

How are those, in any way, related to this?
A lot of the ideas to make it easier, however, are being shot down by experts who don't themselves need it. What ideas for making it easier? Please point out an actual thread where one person proposes a way to make Ubuntu easier and someone else "shoots down" this proposal.

How are these quotations shooting those down? Who cares, anyway? Why can't people express an opinion?

"Shooting down" doesn't matter unless someone has authority. I used to be an English teacher. If I, as a teacher, "shot down" an idea, it was shot down. I was the teacher. I had the authority. If a fellow classmate "shot down" an idea... well, it wasn't shot down--it was just disagreed with.

No one here has authority to "shoot down" an idea. We all just express our opinions, and they're all equally valid.

thepeople
June 10th, 2006, 07:40 AM
then what features is it about? when he said "ordinary people don't install..." he was pointing out the error in your reasoning.

you say ubuntu is too hard for joe shmo to install, but you use windows as your benchmark of the way it should be.

joe shmo would have a much harder time installing windows than he would ubuntu.I don't at all have Windows as a benchmark. As far as things go, Ubuntu is lightyears ahead of either of them for installation. I don't at all consider Windows as the major grounds for comparison.

There are comments that, say, suggest that it be easier for people to find out what the difference between Ubuntu and Kubuntu (and I'm talking make it as obvious as a battleship on a mountain, as there really are some who lack any knowledge of computers), and they're often met with "no." So far, those who're posting in this thread are those who don't immediately denounce these ideas.

aysiu
June 10th, 2006, 07:42 AM
You said people don't need to learn Windows. They just know how to use it. You certainly (not in this thread--but in the other one) implied that Windows is a benchmark.


I don't at all have Windows as a benchmark. As far as things go, Ubuntu is lightyears ahead of either of them for installation. I don't at all consider Windows as the major grounds for comparison.
I post here on behalf of everyone who uses Windows every day, on behalf of everyone who doesn't even know what a forum is, on behalf of everyone who doesn't know anything outside of Dell.
There's a reason I use Windows. It doesn't demand that I learn a second profession just to check my email or watch a video. I come here and ask you a question - the first thing you say is "Open the terminal."
They never had to learn how to use Windows. Everything from first boot to playing their favorite game was "follow the bouncing ball, click OK." and for that matter, OSX isn't Windows, either, but it's still even easier for a lot of people to use.

You keep changing your tune when people call you on it.

What do you hope to get out of these threads of yours, seriously?

Here's drizek proposing a new naming convention for Ubuntu/Kubuntu (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=193458), and I don't see any of this "shooting down." People are discussing it in a civil manner and considering the possibilities. People are entitled to their opinions. It's not "agree with thepeople or else you're an oppressor."

Your username may be thepeople, but you don't speak for everybody or even most people.

rcarring
June 10th, 2006, 07:43 AM
@thepeople

I'm a hardcore Windows user since 1992, I have probably installed, configured and fixed Windows more times than I care to remember; I was a tech beta site for every version of Windows from 98 upwards; I used to work in an NT shop; I fix people's pcs as a hobby.

Yet, I still like running Ubuntu.

I am prepared to get my hands dirty and read the helpful replies here. I would say I probably managed to learn Ubuntu just posting here, reading what people say, and after a while posting help to others myself, based on solutions I have tried that work.

Ok, I admit I get pissy about the way drives are partitioned, and I accept my answers aren't the only ones. Ubuntu is about a freedom of choice: choose which version to run, or just run a vm or the live cd from time to time.

rcarring
June 10th, 2006, 07:45 AM
I wonder if thepeople has ever installed System 9.2.

.t.
June 10th, 2006, 07:56 AM
The reason why people think Windows is easier is because they have used it for much longer. They have got used to figuring it out, fixing it, reinstalling it (or just waiting for the 2m25s boot). If we all tried Ubuntu for the same amount of time, we'd be much happier. But people just don't know. And we must educate them. You don't need your 'Microsoft', and if you are silly enough to delete in the Ubuntu graphical installer, then you can do so in the text based XP installer (which doesn't account for resizing partitions), or the Vista installer (which is in "****-easy" mode by default).

Chris03
June 10th, 2006, 08:45 AM
Forgive the life story, but I think anyone can learn how to use Ubuntu on their systems. It just takes a little bit of learning and progress. I first used the Internet in 2003 when I got some generic PC with Windows XP on it. From there, I learned about how the Internet worked, and how to use email, messaging, chat, etc. It was really fun until I couldn't use the Internet anymore.

I had to call some tech support guy to come over because I thought something was broken. He asked me if I had any type of firewalls or antivirus programs and I didn't even know what he was talking about. He asked if I needed to keep anything on the computer and said no. He said my computer crashed and was using a restore CD. After it loaded, he had to install things to make my video and sound work. Then update all this software from a website with warning dialogs appearing.

Long story short, I learned over time what "Microsoft", "Windows", and "Internet Explorer" caused. Especially when reading an article by the US Government CERT agency to stop using it. I learned about Linux when reading some comments by people in an article. I figured about what Live CDs were and liked them a lot except that I couldn't get audio or video to play. I learned about DistroWatch and saw Ubuntu as number 1. Tried Hoary and the screen was small because of the video card. Read more about Linux and software patents, and also lack of hardware specs to create drivers. Installed a Linux system for the first time with Breezy. From then on, it was a lot of learning and the only thing I needed for Windows was taking webcam photos because Breezy always froze. Dapper has completely given me a 100% solution away from Windows. In further releases like Edgy and onwards, it'll do the same for people with more needs than mine.

As you can tell by my sig, I hate Microsoft and their crappy Windows with a passion and hope they die a horrible death.

Delkster
June 10th, 2006, 09:48 AM
I come here and ask you a question - the first thing you say is "Open the terminal."
This is a bit of a problem. I can see the reason behind it, as it's quite a lot easier to provide specific commands which the writer knows will do the job. The commands do more or less absolutely the way you write them, but someone who is just told to find a button and to click on it doesn't.

However, it probably sounds scary to people who have no idea what the commands do. That's why I usually try to instruct people in the ways of using the GUI tools rather than giving them a series of commands. That way they're more likely to learn from what they're doing, too -- should need arise, they'll probably memorize how to do it in the GUI again better than they would with commands that mean nothing to them.

While I haven't tried (I've been just upgrading Ubuntu since I installed it about a year and two releases ago) I believe it's possible, particularly now with the Dapper Drake release, to enable proprietary and semi-proprietary multimedia codecs without touching the terminal. It probably isn't so easy with regards to enabling obscure hardware, which is a problem, but not easily solvable in Ubuntu, because quite obviously building the support for a certain piece of hardware is somewhat dependent on the hardware manufacturer.

That information doesn't help someone who has a problem with their hardware, but it is still an answer to your (implied, not direct) question: Why doesn't it work in an easy way?


If it comes up so often, why do you keep saying "alright, then go away, use Windows." Isn't that the opposite of what's supposed to be happening?

What ever happened to "software tools should be useable by people?"
Ubuntu is actually becoming more and more usable all the time. However, things don't happen overnight. If "in that case Windows may be a better choice for you for now" isn't a suitable answer, what is? The other two options are to have it become usable for you right now, or for you to wait for it to become so and use it from now on anyway. The former isn't going to happen and the latter probably doesn't sound like an option to you, and it probably isn't even wise.

One reason why the system doesn't magically become a snap to use in every possible scenario is that the software architecture behind everything is quite old. A lot of it has proven quite flexible in the test of time and should probably be retained; some other parts should be renewed. However, it's not entirely simple to change many things without breaking compatibility or security, neither of which it is desirable to compromise. Since it is, on the other hand, a good idea to build a solid base on which to build things neatly rather than to just throw everything together and hope that you can keep it that way, a certain amount of care and planning are necessary when implementing something new.

Ubuntu is actually one of the less conservative distributions, but particularly since there's a commercial company behind it and it's definitely above the radar (and also due to a matter of well-founded principle), it's not possible to easily do things for which breaking laws would be needed. Again, this doesn't help you right on the spot if you get a video which you would like to watch but you can't because it's been encoded using a proprietary codec, but it's an answer to the implied question, similarly to what I said regarding hardware.

matthew
June 10th, 2006, 10:33 AM
This is an interesting thread. The topic is more suited to the Cafe, though. I'm going to move it there.

cjm5229
June 10th, 2006, 12:12 PM
I just want to say, I grew up on a farm in Wisconsin, in the middle of the Nicolet National Forest. I was born there in 1952. 3 things we learned there from an early age were, milking cows, cutting down trees, and driving trucks. I have lived in Indiana since 1986. I don't milk cows anymore, but I still could. Not many trees around, so I drive truck. Anybody that knows anything about truck driving, knows that it involves more hours in a day than even farming. I have Ubuntu 6.06 installed on my computer, I do have WinXP in a virtual machine installed in my computer, not so I can use Windows, but so I can learn how to use the virtual machine. I'm sure if it wasn't that difficult for a "steering wheel jockey" like me, a Medical Student should be able to figure it out. I just dual booted Breezy, and played with it during those times that my windows was being reinstalled because something went boom, and now I use it all the time. I understand Ubuntu, Windows just aggravates me. But That is what Ubuntu is all about, the freedom of choice, you choose whether you want to use it, how you want it setup, what software you want installed, it is YOUR OS, not Bill Gates. I hear Vista, if it ever gets released, is going to come with all the adware, spyware, and Virii preinstalled so that you don't have to hunt all over the internet to get it!;)

missmoondog
June 10th, 2006, 01:28 PM
i've been dual booting xp and breezy since breezy came out. a little curve using ubuntu at first, but with all the great help here, i've gotten the hang of it. now, since dapper drake has come out, i did a clean install of it and totally wiped out windows on all 5 of my computers. the only 2 things i'm not happy with in ubuntu is neither of my scanners (visioneer) work with it, and the standby option that still doesn't work correctly on any of the 5 boxes! :(

otherwise, for a linux based os, ubuntu couldn't/can't be much easier, even for joe blow, if that person is willing to learn. you do even have to learn a little to use windows and keep it running properly.

3rdalbum
June 10th, 2006, 01:51 PM
I'm not rabidly anti-Windows, but I'm going to add my 2 cents here by saying that it's taken longer for me to set up my Windows than my Ubuntu. Bear in mind that Windows came preconfigured on my machine!

I've never edited a shell's configuration file, and I don't even want to TRY to learn Vi or Emacs. Yet I've somehow managed to thrive with Ubuntu. I set up my proprietry format support WITHOUT Automatix, EasyUbuntu, or BUMPS. And guess what? It was easy.

You know what? In parts of India, Linux is used more than Windows. Back when Linux was less refined than it is now, tens of thousands of people learnt computing on Linux. It wasn't even Ubuntu - it was some no-name distro. Surely you're smarter than a bunch of computer-illiterate Indians? For that matter, Ubuntu is only a couple of years old, and it was many many years before Windows stopped its dependance on the command line.

Really, the only reason why you'd need to use the terminal is when you want to compile programs from source or make interesting modifications to your operating system. These are things that you would not be doing in day-to-day work. And what's more time-expensive: Rebooting your computer twice a workday every workday for years, or looking in the Help file once a week for the first 2 months? My boss has two Windows computers, which he has to restart twice daily. That's a lot of lost time.

If you can't be bothered to copy and paste some instructions, just get someone else to set up the computer for you. After all, "somebody else" sets up Windows for you. I'm not being elitist here: Literally, if you want to avoid the terminal, just ask a friend to set everything up.

B0rsuk
June 10th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Some people just need cell phones, not computers.

Think about cars. You need to be old enough to use a car. You need to learn about road rules. You need to learn for a few weeks and pass a test you have to pay for. There are lots of rules you have to obey, like 'always have a medikit with you'. You need to know how to change fuel, oil, etc. You need to know what tires are good to use and when. Driving a car demands constant attention and caution.

It amazes me how easily people accept these difficulties, but deny computers (much more complex devices) to require learning. And computers are much cheaper, too.
Let's not forget computers don't even have a straightforward purpose that is easy to describe. Cars have simple purpose, they get you from A to B.
Computers ? What's the purpose of computers ? To send email ? To write documents ? To listen to music ? To watch video ? To play games ? To watch www ? How do you define purpose of computer ?

When I apply for a job and need to write CV, I research the topic to make sure I get it right and it sounds like it should. When I go to town council with an affair, I make sure I have everything I need, might possibly need, and know what my rights are. When I set up a credit card, I always research the topic to see which bank has the best offer with no catches. When I care to my garden, I research the topic to make sure I know everything I need about taking care of plants.
When I buy a cat, I buy a book or two about feeding a cat and common cat diseases and how to remedy/prevent them. To be good at something, I simply need to learn about it. Average citizen doesn't even need to know cows exist. Many of them will never see a cow up close. You don't need to know how does a cow look inside to drink milk.
You don't have a point.

This is simply common sense.

ozarkman
June 10th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Speaking as a farmer who btw runs a dairy (currently milking 250 head) i also have a job off the farm so I can provide my family with health insurance. I have to say WOW!!! Also congratz on your time management. I barely find time to sleep.

I too use a computer at work. A windows computer because thats what my employer chooses. For home and my personal busness use I choose several flavors of linux with the newest being Ubuntu. Rest assured I am no computer expert but I use linux because I became bored with windows. I wanted some stimulation for my brain , much like your choice to go to medical school.

To me linux is about freedom without bill trying to tell me what I can and cant do. Its about people helping people.

So as a wise man once said-- Dont look a gift horse in the mouth.
as a farmer you should understand that.

Good luck with medical school

just my two cents

matthew
June 10th, 2006, 08:46 PM
I'm moving this to the cafe and merging it with your other thread on the same basic topic.

Stormy Eyes
June 10th, 2006, 09:06 PM
I post here on behalf of everyone who uses Windows every day, on behalf of everyone who doesn't even know what a forum is, on behalf of everyone who doesn't know anything outside of Dell. Most of all, I post here on behalf of anyone who's tried Ubuntu and yelled "it deleted my Microsoft!" after finding that the installation did, indeed, delete their 'Microsoft.'

I am posting on my own behalf, and speak only for myself: the next time you want to express an opinion, don't try to add weight to your words by claiming to speak for anybody but yourself. You'll get a more sympathetic audience if you're willing to admit that it's just your opinion.

Your post isn't constructive criticism, it's a demon-ridden manifesto.

KiwiNZ
June 10th, 2006, 09:27 PM
OK this thread has past is useby date.

Blind-Summit
June 14th, 2006, 03:34 PM
I've used windows PC's for many years from windows 3.1 up to XP and before that I wrote basic on BBC computers when I was in primary school. I've come to learn windows pretty damn well and have had no problems with "using" it. I added Ubuntu on dual boot when I became sick of slow, unresposive program, spyware (viruses were never a problem, but spyware has become evil and targets windows setups so badly). Software was expensive, and especially as I am a home user that like to play with video and audio editing - yet no way can I afford the pro end price tags.

I install Breezy a few months back and was impressed. The generic drivers after a fresh install got me going with everything. Wifi was only a few command lines away - and after a couple of posts asking how to get started (and woah - this isn't windows) I managed to get on my feet.

I've just got hold of Dapper and have had some pretty bad problems with wifi and dual screen etc. I had to extract some firmware for my wireless card, then dual screen got sorted.

On the whole, Ubuntu has done very well to get me into a Linux environment. I still can't go without a dual boot as I'm not feeling 100% safe and happy yet. There are a lot of problems still to be address, but this is more with hardware providers and the lack of support from them. My keyboard and mouse don't work perfectly, and the audio setup is terrible!!

I have found the help here nothing but great. Everyone has been kind, respectful and very helpful. I have found people have stuck with me on problems until I give the OK that I am happy and the issue is solved. I know Linix would put most die hard Windows users off, especially given that not everyone would have the free time to sit down and read up on stuff like I have had to do.

Now if someone can just help me get my sound sourted through SPDIF - digital out then I will be over the moon, shouting Ubuntu from the rooftops!

This community is great and it's the loss of that guy if hes not given it a second chance!

johnthejack
June 14th, 2006, 03:51 PM
I have to agree with the original post. There's nowhere to ask real beginners' stupid questions and nowhere to get a reply which makes sense to someone who has just logged on to a completely foreign system for the first time. I have been working almost non-stop on Ubuntu for almost 5 days. I can't even get my wireless card to work. When there are replies, often they're incredibly difficult to follow. When I find a possible solution, it usually involves copying lines of code. That may or may not work, but it is absolutley no way of learning. I have no idea what these lines of code have done, whether it is possible to undo it, how I've altered my system or anything. Copy and paste is not a learning tool.
I accept people who do reply are trying to help and what assistance I am getting is given completely free of charge, so I'm not criticisizing. I'm just explaining how it seems.
If you boot in to Windows for the first time there are two big advantages. First you don't have to master the system just to get a connection. Second, everyone knows someone who has used the system before, so you can chat and ask dumb silly questions. I really wish there were people online in chat to which I could fire off a whole number of simple basic queries, and get plain English answers.

KarmaKing
June 14th, 2006, 07:54 PM
I am similar to Blind Summit's response, but I have had almost no major problems other than upgrading to 6.06. A fresh install using the Alternate CD cleared everything up.

As for speaking the language, well there is always going to be a learning curve. If you want to try something new, you will always have to accomodate and assimilate information.

Did you ride you bike the first time out? Do you just hop in a car or do you learn to drive? Do you skydive without learning proper technique?

Now, did you just jump onto WINDOWS and know everything? I think not! Ubuntu/Linux is no different

My point here is, if one is not willing to take the time to learn something new, one will never learn.

I had always stayed away from Linux because of what people and had said, but took a leap of curiosity and with no expectations. What were your expectations?
If one expects WINDOWS and doesn't get it, then expectations are not met and thus, dissapointment.

I have been using Ubuntu for only 5 weeks. I can't complain about anything. everyone here has been more than helpful and prompt. Ubuntu is free, the support is free, most of the software is free...what else can you ask for?

Sure the answer to you problem might not be solved on the first response, but eventually it will.

Hope ya stick around and try the alternate CD with a fresh install. As a newbie myself I am cheering you on.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 08:02 PM
If you boot in to Windows for the first time there are two big advantages. First you don't have to master the system just to get a connection. Actually, you do... unless your system came preinstalled.

But then, you wouldn't have to master the system to get a connection with a preinstalled Ubuntu computer either.

I haven't had to deal with wireless or dial-up (I hear they can be a pain if you didn't buy Ubuntu preinstalled or check hardware compatibility lists before buying your hardware), but my broadband ethernet was detected automatically--no mastering of the system necessary.

j.stagner
June 17th, 2006, 02:54 AM
In one sense, you're totally right, but what you said is misleading. After all, Windows takes just as much (if not more time) to set up if installed from scratch (no recovery disks). Problem is that the vast majority of Windows users never install Windows.

I find it absolutely amazing that I hear this kind of statement so frequently. While setting up Windows can take the same amount of time to copy the files to the target drive, there is simply no comparison between the amount of work required by the user between a typical (for an average "home" user) Windows install and a typical Linux install.

I truly wonder where this comes from, that so many people (not just you by any means) say such things even in the face of the fact that a perusal of these forums suggests that even Ubuntu (which is fantastic!!!) has a very large number of users who have a many questions about how to get something as simple as networking to work.

P.S.: Kudos for the "Is Ubuntu for You?" thread and being willing to answer questions, however!

aysiu
June 17th, 2006, 02:58 AM
Because the people who have networking auto-configured post a lot of threads declaring, "By the way, I don't have a problem with networking. I'm just posting to let you know I don't have a problem."

If you hung out at the customer service center of the baggage claim area at the airport, you'd think everyone was losing bags.

I have done two Windows installations from scratch and at least 30 Linux installations from scratch. Every single Linux installation was easier than those two Windows installations.

Frankly, I wonder where this whole idea that Windows is easy to install came from... unless people just think it's easy because they've never had to install it. I'm speaking from experience.

learning
June 17th, 2006, 04:11 AM
Being the computer literate member of the family, I have to set up new windows computers for my dad's home and office. I dread his purchase of new machines!

Even with Windows installed new, when you get home you turn it on, install anti-virus/spyware, connect to internet, download updates, reboot, download updates, reboot, download updates, reboot....

Next machine (if I don't have him switched to Linux by then) I plan to make my brother do a complete install of ubuntu on one machine from the live cd, while I get the new windows machine ready for work side by side and see who wins the race!

They both should go smoothly, but I hate the time consumption and rebooting windows requires.

morequarky
June 17th, 2006, 05:40 AM
I'd like to see a google video where they do an install windows and ubuntu RACE next to each other on the same compatable hardware.

Set a few rules:
Internet
Outlook/Thunderbird
MSN/Gaim
Office/Open Office
....

See who wins.

Do a couple of installs.

WIN Newbie VS UBUNTU Newbie
WIN Expert VS UBUNTU Expert
WIN Expert VS UBUNTU Newbie

See who finishes first.

prizrak
June 17th, 2006, 08:25 AM
I am suffering from winxp withdraw right now. I had some spare time during my summer vacation and thought I'd like to dive into Linux, deciding to skip dual-boot entirely. All I've ever used has been windows since 3.1. My biggest concern was not being able to do everything I wanted to on a linux system. I mean, my computer already had winxp professional on it (meaning I already paid for the program, why switch?) Linux advocates make a convincing argument for free alternative windows programs with openoffice, gaim, xine, and wine who needs their costly alternatives, but it's those small random programs that don't have ports. No one using x likes to mention the huge amount of time spent on packages, compiling source, using the terminal and fixing little things that work already in windows.

Of course, there are many positive aspects of linux and I'll probably be glad I took the time to learn it. However, I feel that the linux community has misrepresented the ease of transitioning from different systems. I heard "all the popular programs have their free equivalents linux! all other programs can be emulated through wine! You have everything you need! Modern distros easy setup!" No one mentions the tedious package and driver configuration necessary just to get DVDs to work or talks about the shortcomings of emulating, or the process just to get a program to show up on the applications bar, or the necessity to reassign special keys and shortcuts. After my first day of using linux I am almost fed up with all the little things that need to be configured. Windows has its downfalls , but the total amount of time spent scanning for viruses, setting up a firewall, defragmenting, doing a fresh install of windowsxp regularly would probably amount to less than the amount of time configuring linux has required. Maybe if I was back in middle/high school during the summer I wouldn't care so much and recommend everyone to try the "better" OS. Honestly, I know people who have been using computers for years, but don't know basic things like how to setup a printer or timid about searching for a program and installing it from the internet. These are the people who buy full desktop sets. How could linux possibly hope to appeal to the regular person when it expects so much setup time from the user? Maybe, for the tech lovers, but most users don't want to see code or spend time customizing they want the job done. I converted to linux for better security and in hopes that I wouldn't have to purchase another copy of microsoft word or an antivirus subscription again , but in the end, nothing is really free.
Go to www.system76.com or www.emperorlinux.com get a system from there and tell me if it takes a long time to set up. After that get an XP install CD and try putting it on one of those machines. After that you will be qualified to make a judgement on which is easier to install and set up.

aysiu
June 17th, 2006, 06:03 PM
Go to www.system76.com or www.emperorlinux.com get a system from there and tell me if it takes a long time to set up. After that get an XP install CD and try putting it on one of those machines. After that you will be qualified to make a judgement on which is easier to install and set up.
Well-put, prizrak.

I'm tired of these double standards.

Easy to "install" Windows on a Windows-preinstalled computer? Of course. Geez.

By the way, I believe Emperor Linux laptops are actually Windows laptops, and they'll configure a dual-boot for you. Carl Richell (the System 76 guy) says there's no Windows tax on the System 76 computers.

prizrak
June 17th, 2006, 07:22 PM
Well-put, prizrak.

I'm tired of these double standards.

Easy to "install" Windows on a Windows-preinstalled computer? Of course. Geez.

By the way, I believe Emperor Linux laptops are actually Windows laptops, and they'll configure a dual-boot for you. Carl Richell (the System 76 guy) says there's no Windows tax on the System 76 computers.
Last time I checked Emperor (and it's been a while) they had a dual boot option but it wasn't a requirement.

johnsymons
June 25th, 2006, 06:19 PM
Well I also recently switched from Windows too, but Ubuntu was remarkably easy to install... especially if you follow the instructions of the UbuntuGuide.org (http://www.ubuntuguide.org)
most things in Ubuntu are easily installed through 'apt-get install', 'synaptic' or 'dpkg -i' (with .deb files) .. so no hassle with compiling etc, and automatic dependencies checks/installs. :)
Granted, not all files are in the repositories, but a large chunk is.

But I do have dual boot, just in case. (Which was just as well, because with my tinkering I broke the first installation right on the first day :) )

btw, I have never seen any of the claims you are telling... sure many win programs have linux counterparts, but certainly not all are available... and some are better and others are much worse...
I think the people, who told you that, really need a reality check :)
just check out some news servers and you'll see the linux users telling all the windows users how much better it is to have the "better OS", but it just don't work like that, i think we all know that, i dual boot myself, i have the best of both worlds, because i have ubuntu, i have the very best of the linux world, i love it and if i didn't have so many windows documents from my day job, i wouldn't have windows at all, and emulation just isn't the same.
anyway the point is, that if we all spent our time telling people what a good system linux is and that they should rid themselves of their pesky windows, then we take away peoples choice, and then we will find it hard to remember what it was that ubuntu means in african won't we?
ubuntu...it's for everyone even the windows users
that is one of the reasons i like it....i've never heard anyone tell me ubuntu is better than anything, it's just a modest and brilliant OS, with some bad points too, just like any other.
p.s. i had to post this off a windows machine, cause the kids were playing the sims and i couldn't be bothered to reboot tonight

johnsymons
June 25th, 2006, 06:31 PM
Indeed. If I had super-powers (beyond the ability to fly and shoot laser beams out of my eyes that I already have, of course :)), I'd make it my mission in life to track down every person who misrepresents Linux as being as good as (or better) than Windows in every possible way and give them a good kick in the pants :). And yes, these people do exist and they do far more harm than good - such people initially prompted me to try Linux (Mandrake 9.1, way back in Sept '03) with claims that it was completely superior to Windows, and that no applications ever crashed, etc. The gap between expectation and reality was so wide that the disappointment rapidly changed into frustration and a peculiar sense of...betrayal, I think, which extended to the entire Linux community even though it was, as is so often the case, only the vocal minority who deserved to bear the brunt of blame. I was so disillusioned with it, in fact, that I vowed never to try it again.

As it so happens, I eventually did try it again (just over a year ago) and with my reduced expectations (and Desktop Linux's incredible improvements since the last time I'd used it - honestly, it was like night and day!) I soon fell in love with it and will now never go back to Windows :)

I'm firmly convinced that had people taken a more balanced approach to advocacy (stating that yes it does have many advantages over Windows, but be prepared for missing functionality, unsupported hardware, etc), I would never have had such a severe backlash against Linux. In fact, nowadays, my "advocacy" consists of a litany of problems that people will run into should they try Linux. Oddly, this arouses far more curiousity than the Zealot's Approach, presumably because people think "Hmmm...Zod's a fairly smart fellow, and he's just listed all these shortcomings and yet he still uses it first time. I guess Linux must have some other, perhaps less tangible, advantages, then. I wonder what they could be? Perhaps I'll try it for myself!"

Edit:

I should also point out that installing Ubuntu on my desktop and Laptop are both easier than installing Windows, so please don't assume that any difficulties you had will be experienced by others - it's pretty much 100% dependent on your hardware.

yeah man thats about right too, i had the same problems when i first installed fedora, everyone told me how great it was, so i made the switch, only to find that i had about three hours until i started to feel betrayed.
i too stayed away for a long time, but then found ubuntu and was amazed that it could be so easy to use after my original misfortune, that was about four months ago and since then i have installed it on several of my friends computers, though i use very much the same diplomacy as you, there are never any real guarantees that an OS will be everything you wanted, just in linux, if you need something to do a certain job, you will have a much easier and cheaper time finding it, install might be a bit of a hassle sometimes, but it is fun just the same.
oh, yeah the initial install is so much easier than windows, i should know, we get a lot of broken windows here

IYY
June 25th, 2006, 06:57 PM
1) Linux is free only if your time is worthless. (a common quote)

First of all, when Linux users use the term "Free", they don't usually mean money: they mean that the software is liberated, the source code freely available.

But anyway, every thing in this world takes time, it's just the way life works. Going hiking is free, but it will take away your weekend.


2) Linux is still not ready for non-geeks to install.

Neither is Windows.

prizrak
June 26th, 2006, 05:51 AM
johnsymons,
This is not about how good or bad either OS is. The point is that alot of people have a double standard for Linux. They will take reboots after each little update, mal/spyware, having to pay for antivirus, needing registry/spyware utilities and so on and so forth. However as soon as Linux fails to detect some piece of hardware or the installer confuses them or they don't take the 5 seconds that are needed to find a link to the forums in the help menu and installing Automatix to play their DVDs/MP3's they scream bloody murder and say that Linux isn't ready for any kind of desktop use by those who do not have IT degrees. They completely overlook the fact that just about any OEM Windows install will come with alot of software preinstalled including DVD and MP3 software as well as drivers for everything there is and that there was no need to install and troubleshoot the OS at all when they turned their computer on.

Another annoying thing is that people don't want to learn and bitch about the fact that they have to. I dunno about them but I had to learn to walk as a child and it took me 3 tries to get my driver's license and those are very simple and natural things*. However people expect things as complicated and sophisticated as a personal computer, that took about 40-50 years to even get to the point where most people could use it w/o needing an IT degree, to not require any learning.

*Yes driving does not occur naturally in the wild, it does rely on completely natural skills that all humans possess from birth.

saphil
June 27th, 2006, 02:15 AM
Windows on a single-boot system using default settings, pre-imaged by the supplier, is by far the norm for windows users. Fully customizing a Win installation is at least as hard as Ubuntu Linux installer, or maybe harder. By the time you have done 30 or 40 of each every week for a year or two, the relative hardness fades. Some of my students think in setting up a dual-booting win/lin box, the linux is harder, but they are not reading the lab instructions, or are being hypnotized by the moving bars..

tsb
June 27th, 2006, 05:32 AM
Actually there are at least two approved systems for romanizing Chinese. Almost all the signs here in Taiwan have both traditional Chinese and the romanized characters. Unfortunately they can't decide which of these two systems to use, so there are signs using both systems which could confuse someone without any exerience using them.

As for the original post, I can't really understand the POV. Anyone thinking any Linux distro is ready for J6P is definitely biased. Way too much post install configuration is required. Besides, without more commercial software Linux will never have a chance and without a larger user base there is little chance for more commercial software. It's a chicken/egg scenario that ensures Windows popularity and continuing dominance with J6P. The same applies to OSX thanks to its limited hardware base. Hopefully Apple will realize they could earn a lot making OSX run on any machine. You also mention the 1:6 ratio. How could you compare that with the 1:100 ratio (probably generous as well) for Linux? It makes no sense.

aysiu
June 27th, 2006, 07:44 AM
As for the original post, I can't really understand the POV. Anyone thinking any Linux distro is ready for J6P is definitely biased. Way too much post install configuration is required. You're missing the point of the whole thing.

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktop
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxtroll

Read those and tell me if I'm still "definitely biased."

johnsymons
June 27th, 2006, 09:00 AM
people don't want to learn and bitch about the fact that they have to. I dunno about them but I had to learn to walk as a child and it took me 3 tries to get my driver's license and those are very simple and natural things*. However people expect things as complicated and sophisticated as a personal computer, that took about 40-50 years to even get to the point where most people could use it w/o needing an IT degree, to not require any learning.

*Yes driving does not occur naturally in the wild, it does rely on completely natural skills that all humans possess from birth.

oh i am well aware of the problems with windows, just as i am with linux, i know what i prefer, and my computer will be windows free very soon regardless, i just find it strange that oyu can put a windows computer infront of someone with no knowledge of the thing and they will learn it, but if you put linux infront of the same person, they wouldn't want to know about it, its like people are born with their heads full of microsoft propaganda.( http://nanodot.org/article.pl?sid=01/05/03/1228236 )
myself, i don't have an IT degree, i just have an open mind to new opportunities
which is what linux is, even if it is just the opportunity to learn something new

3rdalbum
June 27th, 2006, 09:53 AM
i just find it strange that oyu can put a windows computer infront of someone with no knowledge of the thing and they will learn it, but if you put linux infront of the same person, they wouldn't want to know about it, its like people are born with their heads full of microsoft propaganda.

You really think so? In my experience, people who don't have a lot of computing knowledge are just as open to Ubuntu.

aysiu
June 27th, 2006, 10:04 AM
I've sat people down in front of Ubuntu who have only Windows experience, and they've had no problems using it.

I didn't ask them to install Ubuntu--just to use it, and they had no problems. Well, they did have a problem with my NoScript extension in Firefox, but I use that in Windows at work, too--that's platform independent. Most people like to run Javascript globally.

tsb
June 27th, 2006, 12:08 PM
c
You're missing the point of the whole thing.

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktop
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxtroll

Read those and tell me if I'm still "definitely biased."

You ARE biased as hell. (Nothing wrong with that. ;) ) J6P expects to be able to play those WMV files when they browse the web and listen to MP3s without installing some extra codecs. J6P expects their DVDs to play after installing a simple pack not going into the command line and inputting multiple commands. Despite claims to the contrary there still aren't any acceptable ways to edit photos/videos in Linux. There are no HTPC options near as well designed as MC. Gaming is a joke on Linux. Your article is based on the premise that someone with Linux experience will first set up the PC and explain the necessities to the user. None of this is necessary with Windows. Even an idiot can get Windows installed and functioning to satisfaction without help. Before someone chimes in about AV software and the like I'd add that they aren't necessary. I know multiple users who have used Winows since '95 without AV software and have never had a single issue. J6P isn't as likely to put themselves at risk. I know your point is that no single OS is right for everyone, but you are grasping straws if you think that means Linux is just ready for J6P as Windows. You are accepting that pemise as fact to support your claim. As your article points out, no OS except Windows is capable of almost everything people will want from an OS. Until Linux accepts more proprietary software/codecs and becomes more all encompassing it won't fill the needs of J6P as broadly and there is no incentive for manufacturers to preinstall Linux or even offer it. Your claim of needing years to be in a position to help Windows users whereas it took mere months to be in that same position with Linux is ludicrous. A week or two of in depth tooling and studying is all that's necessary with either. That said, I prefer Linux to Windows mostly because it requires more tooling and updates much faster. Everything is just already right for Windows out of the box for 99% of its users. If it ain't broke don't fix it is something us Linux users were never fond of. :mrgreen:

A final thing that I'd like to mention that Linux needs is much improved language support. Support for languages that aren't romanized is terrible and way too hard to get working correctly. It's pathetically easy in Windows. Maybe I still misunderstand your point, but I respectfully disagree with what you imply for the J6P readiness of Linux. It seems some distros, especially Ubuntu and MEPIS, are heading in the right direction however, so the future isn't as bleak as the past.

PS - Printing support is pathetic as well. Printing is something J6P needs to be simple, but most manufacturers just don't have Linux drivers and perhaps never will.

seshomaru samma
June 27th, 2006, 12:44 PM
c



A final thing that I'd like to mention that Linux needs is much improved language support. Support for languages that aren't romanized is terrible and way too hard to get working correctly. It's pathetically easy in Windows. Maybe I still misunderstand your point, but I respectfully disagree with what you imply for the J6P readiness of Linux. It seems some distros, especially Ubuntu and MEPIS, are heading in the right direction however, so the future isn't as bleak as the past.

.

Though I sort of agree with you about J6P , I think that in Dapper ,Chinese/Japanese support is very good and can be done with almost no command line (you will need CLI if you want SCIM to run on an English session). I do not think Windows language CJK support is that great , I know quite a lot of people who couldn't figure out how to enable Chinese in the English version of XP , or Japanese on the Chinese version and so on...
As far as the input method goes SCIM is way better than MS default input system

egon spengler
June 27th, 2006, 04:10 PM
You ARE biased as hell. (Nothing wrong with that. ;) ) J6P expects to be able to play those WMV files when they browse the web and listen to MP3s without installing some extra codecs. J6P expects their DVDs to play after installing a simple pack not going into the command line and inputting multiple commands.

It seems that the most popular video format (or container or whatver it is) is avi and that doesn't come preinstalled on Windows. Somehow Windows struggles along. I'm fairly sure that I remember having to install an mp4 player + codecs on Windows too. For some unknown reason people often seem so willing to give Windows the benefit of the doubt where they won't to Linux


Gaming is a joke on Linux.

I know a tonne load of people with pcs and only one that plays games on them. I'm constantly hearing reports of the impending demise of the pc gaming scene. I really don't think that games drives windows pc sales


Your article is based on the premise that someone with Linux experience will first set up the PC and explain the necessities to the user. None of this is necessary with Windows. Even an idiot can get Windows installed and functioning to satisfaction without help.

I don't believe you


Before someone chimes in about AV software and the like I'd add that they aren't necessary. I know multiple users who have used Winows since '95 without AV software and have never had a single issue. J6P isn't as likely to put themselves at risk.

Personally I think much of the "AV is SOOO essential" talk is nothing but hype, I'm mainly just quoting this to confirm that anecdotal evidence is valid. Speaking of which I know a few "Joe six packs" who installed spybot only to discover 1,000+ problems


Until Linux accepts more proprietary software/codecs and becomes more all encompassing it won't fill the needs of J6P as broadly and there is no incentive for manufacturers to preinstall Linux or even offer it.

Actually it's an uninformed statement to say that "Linux" needs to accept more codecs. You say in your sig that you use Mepis and so you should just know that the ideologically purity thing is not a Linux thing but a preference of certain distros which of course relates to the first point. It's not a flaw of Linux to not support mp3, it's a preference of the people who create the distro


Everything is just already right for Windows out of the box for 99% of its users.

Out of the box as in when you just bought it preinstalled? So why is it that you discount someone setting up a Linux distro but someone setting up a Windows installation is ok? And if you mean someone just installing the Os themselves and all hardware auto detected and drivers installed then in my experience (and most peoples I would imagine) that is NOT how Windows works

edit:
I should add that "out the box" Windows comes with barely any software and so how can everything be "just right" when it has barely any functionality? I understand why Windows has such limited software as default and I realise that ideally they would change that if they could. Regardless, lack of hard third part hardware support is not the fault of any Linux distro and they would quite obviouslly change that if they could so if poor printer support is a viable knock against Linux then surely lack of applications has to be a knock against a clean Windows install

aysiu
June 27th, 2006, 04:22 PM
Your article is based on the premise that someone with Linux experience will first set up the PC and explain the necessities to the user. None of this is necessary with Windows. Even an idiot can get Windows installed and functioning to satisfaction without help. You can't make claims like this and then call me biased as hell.

tsb
June 27th, 2006, 04:27 PM
Though I sort of agree with you about J6P , I think that in Dapper ,Chinese/Japanese support is very good and can be done with almost no command line (you will need CLI if you want SCIM to run on an English session). I do not think Windows language CJK support is that great , I know quite a lot of people who couldn't figure out how to enable Chinese in the English version of XP , or Japanese on the Chinese version and so on...
As far as the input method goes SCIM is way better than MS default input system

Yes, you can use the package manager to install all the stuff needed and then use a script to get it to run at startup.....dadadadada. The trouble is you can't just select "traditional Chinese" and be done with it. You need lots of packages that aren't all linked through dependencies and it still doesn't work by default after that. J6P won't accept that. With XP you just hit "Add another language", choose the language you want and insert the CD if necessary. It all works perfectly after that. With Vista everything seems to already be on the HDD so it's even easier. In Vista you can also change the OS UI language at will, something we are used to with Linux that you could only do with the English version XP Pro before. It just doesn't get any simpler than that.

We haven't even discussed the fonts either. They are terrible in Dapper. SUSE does have decent Chinese fonts though. MEPIS also has much better font rendering (both English and Chinese) than Ubuntu IMO.

IT would be nice if you could choose the languages you want to use during the install and have it all work perfectly at first boot. I don't understand what's so hard about that. ](*,) SUSE does it like that if I recall correctly.

tsb
June 27th, 2006, 04:35 PM
You can't make claims like this and then call me biased as hell.

I never said being biased was a bad thing. :-? In fact, I explicitly mentioned that at the beginning of the post. Can you honestly say that Windows isn't easier to get running (without any outside help) to J6P's satisfaction? I highly doubt it.

aysiu
June 27th, 2006, 04:38 PM
I never said being biased was a bad thing. :-? In fact, I explicitly mentioned that at the beginning of the post. Can you honestly say that Windows isn't easier to get running (without any outside help) to J6P's satisfaction? I highly doubt it.
Yes, I honestly can--having installed Windows from scratch twice. Both times were a nightmare.

tsb
June 27th, 2006, 04:42 PM
Yes, I honestly can--having installed Windows from scratch twice. Both times were a nightmare.

For you, not J6P. I've installed Windows 100s of times and have never had one issue. Regardless, we are talking about J6P not ourselves. What troubles did you have?

tsb
June 27th, 2006, 05:03 PM
It seems that the most popular video format (or container or whatver it is) is avi and that doesn't come preinstalled on Windows. Somehow Windows struggles along. I'm fairly sure that I remember having to install an mp4 player + codecs on Windows too. For some unknown reason people often seem so willing to give Windows the benefit of the doubt where they won't to Linux


I can't think of any mainstream sites that don't use WMV or QT(It is an AVC offshoot though AFAIK). Besides WMP will automatically download the codecs you need most of the time or Windows will automatically direct you to a website so you can d/l the install. It isn't that simple with Linux.

I know a tonne load of people with pcs and only one that plays games on them. I'm constantly hearing reports of the impending demise of the pc gaming scene. I really don't think that games drives windows pc sales


FUD, PC gaming is bigger than ever.


I don't believe you


It is a free country. ;)

Personally I think much of the "AV is SOOO essential" talk is nothing but hype, I'm mainly just quoting this to confirm that anecdotal evidence is valid. Speaking of which I know a few "Joe six packs" who installed spybot only to discover 1,000+ problems


I know loads of people on the AVS forum who would disagree. AV, photo editing and e-mail/internet are more important to J6P than an office suite.

Actually it's an uninformed statement to say that "Linux" needs to accept more codecs. You say in your sig that you use Mepis and so you should just know that the ideologically purity thing is not a Linux thing but a preference of certain distros which of course relates to the first point. It's not a flaw of Linux to not support mp3, it's a preference of the people who create the distro


Of course, but not even Mepis or SUSE do it as well as Windows. It's time for a distro to step up.

Out of the box as in when you just bought it preinstalled? So why is it that you discount someone setting up a Linux distro but someone setting up a Windows installation is ok? And if you mean someone just installing the Os themselves and all hardware auto detected and drivers installed then in my experience (and most peoples I would imagine) that is NOT how Windows works


No, almost all hardware comes with drivers on CD for Windows if it's needed. That isn't guaranteed with Linux. With Vista, everything was automatically detected on all the PCs I have.

edit:
I should add that "out the box" Windows comes with barely any software and so how can everything be "just right" when it has barely any functionality? I understand why Windows has such limited software as default and I realise that ideally they would change that if they could.


It has everything J6P needs. IE, OE, WP, WMP are preinstalled.

Regardless, lack of hard third part hardware support is not the fault of any Linux distro


Yes, it is. If Linux could attract enough users they would port their apps to Linux. The distros have failed to do so. Everyone is quick to blame MS for the mistakes of Linux and other unpopular OSes. The simple fact is that MS gave J6P what they wanted and is deservedly dominating the market.

and they would quite obviouslly change that if they could so if poor printer support is a viable knock against Linux then surely lack of applications has to be a knock against a clean Windows install


See the above. Everything J6P needs comes preinstalled with the exception of a better photo editor and burning program. There are loads of third paryt softwares better than anything Linux can offer in both of these categories. K3B is awesome though. :mrgreen:


I know I'm in the wrong forum to be arguing against Linux, but for J6P there is nothing to argue about. Numbers don't lie and MS is dominating more than ever.

egon spengler
June 27th, 2006, 07:17 PM
For you, not J6P. I've installed Windows 100s of times and have never had one issue. Regardless, we are talking about J6P not ourselves. What troubles did you have?

Things break down when people presume to speak for this mythical "Joe six pack" or "Grandma". Neither joe Six Pack nor Grandma has yet to make an appearance on this forum yet there's a constant deluge of people who claim to speak on their behalf. The fact is none of us here can safely speak on behalf of people who have never tried Linux. Both my mother and my girlfriend are absolutely terrible with coputers yet they use Linux with no problems. Well with no more than they encounter in Windows due to general dislike of using a pc and having no interest to learn how

Then again why am I even debating this with you?



Before someone chimes in about AV software and the like I'd add that they aren't necessary. I know multiple users who have used Winows since '95 without AV software and have never had a single issue. J6P isn't as likely to put themselves at risk


Personally I think much of the "AV is SOOO essential" talk is nothing but hype


I know loads of people on the AVS forum who would disagree. AV, photo editing and e-mail/internet are more important to J6P than an office suite

You're obviouslly only posting to be argumentative, if that's what entertains you by all means go ahead

Brunellus
June 27th, 2006, 07:23 PM
I know I'm in the wrong forum to be arguing against Linux, but for J6P there is nothing to argue about. Numbers don't lie and MS is dominating more than ever.
Microsoft's dominance is a function of its installed base, and not a function of any technical merits inherent in its software.

OEM installations generally also include the various drivers and software packages needed to make a machine work "out of the box." Windows itself does very little in this regard.

Put another way: the dominance of Microsoft is less because its software is superior and more because OEMs are competing to sell to consumers who already have Microsoft software.

prizrak
June 27th, 2006, 07:36 PM
I never said being biased was a bad thing. :-? In fact, I explicitly mentioned that at the beginning of the post. Can you honestly say that Windows isn't easier to get running (without any outside help) to J6P's satisfaction? I highly doubt it.
I can, my uncle a typical J6P could not install Windows on his system. I'm talking a Dell restore CD not even a Windows install disk. As far as Windows install I've done it a million times as well and it always took me more time than Ubuntu.

Typical Dapper install on supported hardware:
1) Install
2) Run Automatix
3) Import personal settings - can be skipped if upgrading from an earlier install and having the /home partition separate
Approximate time: 1-2hours

Typical Windows install on a designed for XP laptop (same as above):
1) Install - Ethernet autodetected and installed nothing else is.
2) Download drivers - video, sound, wireless, touchpad, ACPI, BIOS (yes it works from Windows)
3) Install software - Office, E-mail, K-Lite codec pack, Firefox, Media player plugins for Firefox, Flash, A/V, antispyware, firewall (what XP has is a complete POS).
4) Import personal settings
Approximate time: 8 hours (in reality couple of days but I'm only counting the time actually spent)
Note: On Windows I have to click through a ****load of wizards as opposed to running one script that asks for a password once.

XP is only ready for J6P because it comes on the mofing computer. Get a System76 machine and tell me that you had to spend days configuring Dapper and no J6P will have a problem using it. Codecs are included in some distributions, take Turbo Linux for instance they have a multimedia desktop edition that comes with every single codec out there. Take MEPIS or Linspire they also come with necessary codecs. Ubuntu != Linux it's just one of the Linux based OS's. While you could argue that Ubuntu lacks J6P friendliness because it's all Free software you can hardly stretch it to all Linux based OS's. Hell TiVo is based on Linux and you would have a hard time convincing me that TiVo is not J6P ready.

The only thing I will agree with is printing. Even the CUPS devs agree that the system sux and needs to be replaced. I will also agree that driver installation needs to be simplified because it did take me years to get my Lexmark driver installed and despite my extensive tech background I understood about half of the guide (hooray for copy-paste). That guide was definetly not fitting for J6P as it wasn't even for Ubuntu and took a bit of modifying.


I know I'm in the wrong forum to be arguing against Linux, but for J6P there is nothing to argue about. Numbers don't lie and MS is dominating more than ever.
And that of course has nothing to do with restrictive OEM contracts, or sending the BSA after businesses that order naked PC's, or a vendor lock in, or the fact that MS is in bed with most of the big hardware manufacturers. Ever heard the term "Wintel"? Ever wonder why it was Wintel and not WinAMD? MS and Intel had an exteremely tight relationship until recently, which is why Intel works so well with Linux now.

nandemonai
June 27th, 2006, 10:04 PM
I've been using a couple different Linux distributions as web servers and development / test machines for a few years now but it's only when Ubuntu Breezy (Hoary gave me many a headache) came out that I actually 'switched' to using Linux as my main desktop full-time.

Previously I used Windows or Mac OS.

The only thing I can think of that the Linux world lacks would be better 3D game support. And I mean NATIVE support like what Bioware did with Neverwinter Nights by releasing Linux binaries. It runs better on Ubuntu than on XP.. most of the time.

In my opinion most other software in the Linux world is by far superior to the Windows and Mac equivalents, you just have to find the right one out of the oh so many to choose from. That in itself can sometimes be a pain but again.. try finding free or even bought software on the web for Windows and you have many a page of web searches to look through.
Package management systems like aptitude and it's frontend synaptic fix that problem.

Unless of course your happy with the *cough* software provided */cough* with say Windows XP by default.

Dapper is a big leap forward and I can't wait to see what's in store for the next couple of years.

My suggestion to the author...

Persistence is the key.

Once you actually truly know what you are talking about when it comes to any Operating System, the way you do about Windows.. it's the same thing trying to explain said OS to the 'Average Joe' user and therefor sell it to them pre-installed and setup correctly on a computer, provided it can meet that users needs.

In all honesty I've seen people take to Ubuntu a lot faster with less issues and or questions in the long run than when I set them up with XP.

GuitarHero
June 27th, 2006, 10:08 PM
automatix would have made everything so much easier

tsb
June 28th, 2006, 03:51 AM
You're obviouslly only posting to be argumentative, if that's what entertains you by all means go ahead

Not at all. I just think we got mixed up with the term "AV". I should have been more clear. AntiVirus isn't a necessity IMO, but good audio/video support is essential. I think we got mixed up somewhere. :)

prizrak
June 28th, 2006, 05:56 AM
Not at all. I just think we got mixed up with the term "AV". I should have been more clear. AntiVirus isn't a necessity IMO, but good audio/video support is essential. I think we got mixed up somewhere. :)
I would disagree that antivirus is not necessary. I had my A/V stop more than a few web based viruses even in Firefox. If you patch your system regularly and have a firewall and turn off any and all scripting/images/flash then an A/V might not be neccessary but it would stop you from using alot of websites. It is an extra line of defense especially against macro viruses.

johnsymons
June 28th, 2006, 02:34 PM
You really think so? In my experience, people who don't have a lot of computing knowledge are just as open to Ubuntu.

yeah i didn't say they weren't open to ubuntu, but not open to linux in general, i really like to show people there are alternatives, and i have found that they are open to ubuntu, but as soon as the L word is mentioned and that it is linux, they seem to withdraw from it a bit, the other thing i find, is that, like my brother, people ask me all the time "why is it free?"
i sometimes wonder if they have to satisfy their sociological committment to be a financially contributing consumer, and that if you pay big bucks for your OS you'll have the better product, and i know that aint true


john s

Raistlin355
June 28th, 2006, 04:22 PM
You know I thought when I first started to use a computer with windows xp , I thought this is going to be difficult , Well after trying ,trying , I finally got really good with this OS , Now with this Linux OS , All I can say is WOW , There no way in the world will this OS ever get publicize in the normal household family , Its not for the average novice user . Something that should be VERY VERY easy to do , installing java is impossible with this OS , Everyone so far , and I thankful for your time to assist but so far I have seen everyone has different ways to install java , there no one simple way to do this , with step by step instruction , From the begiining to the end ,Everyone seem to just add the methods as to how its done but there no one person yet and I have try to serach for this but none yet that provides from the beginning to the end as to what should be done one at a time like you would find in Windows , So with that being said , Its time for me to pass this OS off and hit back to something that is really simple to use ( Windows xp )

PS: Thanks everyone that try to help !! But its going to be a very long time before it gets recognize as a choice to choose OS :-?


I'm not gonna argue, doing things in Linux can sometimes be alot harder than (shutter) windows, but these forums can help you figure ANYTHING out, I've got a fully functional laptop that I dual boot between Ubuntu and Windows (because of work). But I personally have not tried to install Java and that seems to be your basis on leaving. I am going to try to get this installed and I'll let you know how it goes.

Just remember:
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OrganicPanda
June 29th, 2006, 12:26 AM
if this 'joe' charactor can install windows, why cant he install linux, with reference to ubuntu what steps are different?? it's all meaningless arguments

GuitarHero
June 29th, 2006, 12:30 AM
If Edgy Eft fixes the printer issues and has automatix preinstalled(probably won't happen) Ubuntu will be way easier than windows to use. At first i was intimidated by change but now i find ubuntu is very easy to use. And i think this thread has become more heated than the origional poster intended.

Cryptopsy
June 29th, 2006, 05:13 AM
Please forgive me and allow me to vent for a second.

I have been a windows user for about 10 years. A few days ago I decided to switch to Ubuntu because of all the rave reviews it gets.

Upon switching, I realized that every damn thing seems to be a strugle with Linux.

Want to play different types of movie formats with Totem? Not supported. You have to fiddle around with plugins and the terminal and all sorts of stuff.

Want your laptop to hibernate, suspend, or have any sort of decent power management? Nope. Again, lots of pissing around and headaches.

Want aMSN to not look like crap and have smoothed fonts? Gotta go through a huge lengthy process just to get the fonts looking decent. And now aMSN doesn't work.

Want to get your wireless card working? Yup, more headaches. More smashing your head on the keyboard wishing for death.

Want to get a webcam working in aMSN. Oops, have to go into the router and enable a bunch of ports.



So basically Im very frustrated. Linux is supposed to be the next big thing, yet its so un-userfriendly it makes me want to go postal. In XP, everything that I mentioned above works without any hassles.

So basically, my question is.... how do you guys do it? How do you use Ubuntu on a day-to-day basis and not freak out all the time? I just dont see the advantage of switching to Linux just yet other then the security of it.

I mean, geeeeze, all I wanted was smooth fonts. Is it so hard for the programers of aMSN to make smooth fonts? We should not have to install a bunch of crap just to make it work.

Ya. Sorry for the long negative post. I just need to get some things off my chest.

Xzallion
June 29th, 2006, 05:16 AM
Want to play different types of movie formats with Totem? Not supported. You have to fiddle around with plugins and the terminal and all sorts of stuff.

There is a reason for this. Some codecs for audio and video are illegal in the U.S. So they have to include all the codecs seperatly, and have users install them. I believe there are ways to install these codecs without the terminal, either through synaptic, Automatix, or some other means.



Want your laptop to hibernate, suspend, or have any sort of decent power management? Nope. Again, lots of pissing around and headaches.

all forms of Linux have had problems with laptops. Thats why Ubuntu's main page says to try a live cd to test your hardware.



Want aMSN to not look like crap and have smoothed fonts? Gotta go through a huge lengthy process just to get the fonts looking decent. And now aMSN doesn't work.

Automatix has a option for just this. Its real easy.



Want to get your wireless card working? Yup, more headaches. More smashing your head on the keyboard wishing for death.

Wireless is another big problem with linux. Once again you should of checked the live cd and googled to see if your hardware worked in ubuntu.



Want to get a webcam working in aMSN. Oops, have to go into the router and enable a bunch of ports.

Webcam support has always been buggy in linux at best.

Nothing works flawlessly in XP, it just seems that because your used to it. I'm going to assume you have installed XP from scratch, as in a blank or recently wiped drive. You have to install all the drivers, set up antivirus and firewall programs, go through the pain of manually updating alot of programs, and popping in alot of install disks. Its complicated, but it becomes routine and doesn't feel like a pain.

Ubuntu has always worked for me, the only flaw being having to configure my nvidia card to get a GUI. And installing applications is a breeze through synaptic, you almost never have to use the command line for that. Ubuntu has always been easier then windows for me.

Alot of your problems are caused by hardware conflicts. Its kind of like buying a software program that you don't meet the requirements for. But with linux, they never say it can't run on that hardware, but that it has problems being forced to run on it. When you have to do a fix for a specific unsupported device, you have to implement the hacks that enable it, and since its not a universally practical thing there is no nice GUI for it, so hence the command line. I know alot of this can cause headaches, but you can always go back to windows, or do a dual boot configuration and ease yourself into using Ubuntu. I would suggest the latter, as you have the idea that it is the next big thing ;)

falcon15500
June 29th, 2006, 05:25 AM
I mean, geeeeze, all I wanted was smooth fonts. Is it so hard for the programers of aMSN to make smooth fonts? We should not have to install a bunch of crap just to make it work.

Sorry to hear that you are so frustrated. Moving from one OS to another, is often a large learning curve. It's also quite common for people to expect that everything works the same way as it did in their previous OS - unfortunately this isn't true, or we would all be using the same OS.

Just on the quote above, the problem isn't that the programmers of aMSN haven't included smooth fonts - it's that the underlying system or toolkit, that aMSN is built upon (TCL/Tk) needs to be recompiled to support smooth fonts. The versions of TCL/Tk that are in the Ubuntu repos don't have this functionality, which is why recompiling your own from source is required.

I understand that this sort of behaviour (compiling your own libraries) would never happen under Windows - but that's just it. This isn't Windows, nor does it try/claim to be. This is Linux, descendent of Unix - and this is how things are often done.

falc

Cryptopsy
June 29th, 2006, 05:38 AM
Ya I do realize there is a difference. Its just such a shock. I have never had to struggle with every little thing in order to get it to work before.

When I first tried Ubuntu on the boot CD I thought it looked great. It was a great layout, and was quite refreshing from stale old XP. But now that I got it installed I am beginning to miss how easy XP was to operate.

Ya i Know that with XP I always had to keep my gaurd up when it came to viruses, spyware, etc, but I had software and a router to keep my security up.

Im really considering switching back to XP. I miss how easy my webcam was to use. I miss my hibernate/suspend. I dunno. With aMSN I wanted smooth fonts. So I found a post on this forum with instructions on how to chage that TCL/TK thinger in order to make it work. So I fired up terminal and followed the instructions perfectly. Now my aMSN won't even start (despite me uninstalling it and re-installing) and I can't even instant message anymore because of it. (Unless I use GAIM, but I really dislike that program as well)

So ya. After pissing around for endless hours trying to make things work, it really starts to make me think ya know?

I can appreciate people who do know Linux well, and who can work through these annoyances. But Im just ready to pack it all in. Which sucks because Ubuntu seemed really cool and I was very excited to get on it. Now I'm XP homesick.

Cryptopsy
June 29th, 2006, 05:45 AM
By the way, if anybody knows how to fix my aMSN, I might stick it out and keep working with Ubuntu. LOL. If my aMSN is screwed, then I think I might dig out the XP disk from the closet. heh,

Xzallion
June 29th, 2006, 05:52 AM
I would strongly suggest setting up a dual-boot configuration if you have the hard drive space. That way you can still use windows for what you want to do now and when in the mood configure and work with linux to get it to do what you want it to do. Its tough going straight from on to the other, and some things just don't work, yet.

Like me, I use Ubuntu for my daily computing needs. But my scanner, a Visioneer OneTouch 8900 usb is not supported in linux yet. And the webcam is too much of a hassle for me to justify bothering with right now. And sound doesn't work in flash for me. So when I need to scan a drawing, chat with webcam, or watch flash videos I boot into Windows XP. I don't boot into it for anything else.

I would also suggest trying the aMSN thing again from scratch, starting with using the Synaptic package manager to remove it and then reinstall it.
System>Administration>Synaptic package manager

czambran
June 29th, 2006, 04:09 PM
Instead of running a dual boot I will recomend running Windows within a virtual machine. You can use Qemu or VMware.

K.Mandla
June 29th, 2006, 04:17 PM
Sorry for the long negative post. I just need to get some things off my chest.
No problem. Everybody needs to shout once in a while. :lol:


So basically, my question is.... how do you guys do it? How do you use Ubuntu on a day-to-day basis and not freak out all the time? I just dont see the advantage of switching to Linux just yet other then the security of it.
I think the trick is to see it as a learning experience. Of course, there's a fair measure of luck involved; if the first computer I installed Ubuntu on hadn't automatically configured itself, I probably would still be working with Windows.

I still have similar problems when I try out new versions of Linux. Some of them don't configure themselves as easily as Ubuntu, or it takes me extra time to figure out why something is different, or where it was put.

I'd love to say that I pick all of those things apart and solve them, but I don't. I wipe the drive and start over with a different version or pick another flavor to play with. I guess it's human nature; it's the hope that even if this one didn't work, maybe another one will.

Cryptopsy
June 29th, 2006, 04:43 PM
Ya. So I suck and I formatted my drive and re-installed XP Pro. I really wanted Ubuntu to work, but it just didnt sit right with me. I think in the back of my head I was thinking "a computer should not be this difficult" and since I have been using windows since grade 8 (approx 11 years) XP seems like a breeze.

My next OS will probably be a Mac OS....but thats only once I actually upgrade my computer to something new. For the moment I will stick with XP. I mean, within a few minutes after installing it all the problems listed above were rectified.

So I'm not sure if I will try Linux again. But at least I gave it a try. I spent hours and hours installing and playing around with it, but it just was not for me.

Thanks for listening.

skunkpit
June 29th, 2006, 05:26 PM
i started on windows in gr8 as well
windows 98se crashed and destroyed a project i was workin on for 3 weeks
i was so pissed off...
a friend gave me a slackware disk, i think it was slack 7 or 6 i forget
oh man countless hours trying to figure out what "X" was
such a noob
but eventually i got it working but with kde and i very much dislike kde
looks too much like windows
but anyway
at that time, like yourself had not much patients for a new system
i went to win2k for a few years then started fooling around with gentoo
--my hope in linux had been revived--
without a doubt the fastest os iv used to date
after stuff compiles its pretty rock solid
and i actually learned how linux functions

graigsmith
June 29th, 2006, 05:46 PM
So basically, my question is.... how do you guys do it? How do you use Ubuntu on a day-to-day basis and not freak out all the time? I just dont see the advantage of switching to Linux just yet other then the security of it.

I never just immediately tried to switch over, i tried it out for a couple of months. before i felt comfortable enough to switch completely. Once you get it set up, it works perfectly with 0 problems. no virus, no spyware, no worms.

and secondly, i diddn't have near that many problems with ubuntu. My problems were getting my wacom tablet working, took a while to figure out at first, but now i can set that up in only a couple of minutes. Media was originally very hard for me to set up probably took hours. but is also not a big deal now, mabey 5 minutes setup time tops.

All the design programs are really quite good, thats one of my reasons for going ubuntu. plus my *ist d slr camera works great. ufraw is great if you have a digital camera that has raw formats.

i wouldn't give up on ubuntu completely, mabey try it again in another year or 2. it's constantly getting better.