PDA

View Full Version : Can we sue MS for defamation?



Sunnz
May 17th, 2007, 04:58 AM
So they've hit the headline again, is there something that we Linux people can do better than "show us the code"?

Now I am not a lawyer, but I hope someone knowledgeable can come out say something about it...

Dr. C
May 17th, 2007, 05:26 AM
IANAL. The thought has defiantly crossed my mind.

A class action lawsuit on behalf of GNU/Linux users against Microsoft for defamation. I see a stronger case for those who have promoted or recommended GNU/Linux to an employer or a customer. In a jurisdiction such as the UK this can cause a world of hurt to Microsoft since apparently "truth" in not a sufficient defense against defamation. Remember the McLibel case?

joe.turion64x2
May 17th, 2007, 05:48 AM
IANAL. The thought has defiantly crossed my mind.

A class action lawsuit on behalf of GNU/Linux users against Microsoft for defamation. I see a stronger case for those who have promoted or recommended GNU/Linux to an employer or a customer. In a jurisdiction such as the UK this can cause a world of hurt to Microsoft since apparently "truth" in not a sufficient defense against defamation. Remember the McLibel case?
If the thing goes on, count me in to sign against MS.

Gmbrdilos
May 17th, 2007, 05:54 AM
you can sue anyone for anything in United States, the question should be do we have any chances of winning the lawsuit.

Sunnz
May 17th, 2007, 05:57 AM
Well we've got the people, the possibility is endless.

mills
May 17th, 2007, 05:59 AM
who gets the cash:-k

joe.turion64x2
May 17th, 2007, 06:00 AM
Well we've got the people, the possibility is endless.
Exact.

aquavitae
May 17th, 2007, 06:26 AM
who gets the cash:-k

I'd say the point of suing would not be the money, it would be to make the statement. Why not make another statement and donate the money to some charity?

mills
May 17th, 2007, 06:33 AM
or spend it on advertising linux, maybe

aquavitae
May 17th, 2007, 06:36 AM
You're right, that's probably a better idea. But we need to win first.

Sunnz
May 17th, 2007, 06:56 AM
So any lawyers here or who is willing to donate money to help?

hardyn
May 17th, 2007, 07:37 AM
i don't think this a fight that can really be won on MSs terms, im quite sure MS has the resources to keep something like this tied up in the courts for ages; much longer than money will hold out, or much longer than a pro-bono council has interest.

rkh
May 17th, 2007, 08:49 PM
An earlier poster stated that "In the US you can sue for anything" or words to that effect. Insofar as you can pay your money, fill out paperwork and file it with a court, this is correct. However, although this is not my area of law -I am a lawyer- I wouldn't touch this suit with a very long pole. Its entirely frivolous under US law. You want to sue a corporation because their representative made a poorly worded, badly supported, but nonethelss statement of opinion against a family of operating systems -ie "linux"? Good luck with that.

Not to mention, its just kind of silly. Silly and petty. MS says this kind of thing every 18 months or so. Yes, its FUD. Yes its stupid. Yes its annoying. But you the user haven't been defamed. As frustrating as it is suing is not really an answer.

Dr. C
May 18th, 2007, 02:20 AM
But isn't it saying that someone is in possession of stolen property defamatory if the property turns out not to be stolen?

I am also far from convinced that these statements from Microsoft were expressed as an opinion rather than as fact.

rkh
May 18th, 2007, 03:16 AM
So what precisely were the defamatory words? Who were they directed at? Like I said, its really not my area of law, but I do know that the US is not nearly so friendly to Defamation suits as many other countries are. Moreover, it really sounds kind of like you would be alleging some kind of group defamation, which courts in this country have been particularly hostile to.

I know that there are a few other lawyers that lurk around these boards, so if anyone else knows more about this than I do I'd love to hear your thoughts. In the end, I just think that our collective energies would be better spent in other ways.

Death_Sargent
May 18th, 2007, 03:22 AM
hear is what we do.

buy an *** of software patents that microsoft would now be infringing because linux owns them.

Then sue them if they dare touch us.

hardyn
May 18th, 2007, 07:48 AM
but then you would have to decompile the MS binaries to prove that they were infringing, again illegal.

steven8
May 18th, 2007, 09:49 AM
but then you would have to decompile the MS binaries to prove that they were infringing, again illegal.

It's not about stealing or copying code. It's much grayer than that. It's things like 'click a button to do something'.

The creators of VisiCalc could have said, "Hey, we had the first interactive spreadsheet, with with individual cells and rows and columns denoted by letters and numbers, so you can't do that." Thus, Excel would have been stopped cold.

use a name
May 18th, 2007, 09:51 AM
Problem is, if we can't win, Ballmer will have a headline again. So, only sue if certain to win.

kripkenstein
May 18th, 2007, 10:45 AM
This isn't defamation, since it is probably true. Every large piece of software infringes on SOME patents, that is just how screwed up the patent system is. Linus and Stallman are very clear about this: there is no "no such patents exist" defense - the patents exist. The question is what to do about them.

The best thing to do is to do nothing. The big players have already taken care of things: IBM and their partners have a ton of patents in the OIN, that can be used to defend Linux against Microsoft.

koshatnik
May 18th, 2007, 10:45 AM
The more we react to MS FUD, the more they win.

Ignore it, its ********.

Jhongy
May 18th, 2007, 11:19 AM
As a previous poster pointed out... it's not defamation if it's true.

Linux certainly does violate 200-odd Microsoft patents. That's because the patents are frivolous crap, like a "show desktop button" or a "blinking cursor" or other such nonsense.

It's nothing to do with "stealing code". However, since patent infringement and copyright infringement can both be lumped together into "IP infringement", The MS FUD announcements talk about that -- infringing IP.

As a result, a ton of people will get the misconception that Microsoft is claiming that Linux has stolen code from MS -- looks like even people here have fallen for the bait. But they're not claiming that.

Crafty, miserable b*stards out to slow technological development to a crawl. I like Linux and find Ubuntu easy to install and use... but even if that changed, I do not see myself going back to a company that treats people in this way. Ever.

astromech
May 18th, 2007, 11:27 AM
Maybe you have the people, but microsoft has the bucks!!! They could drag out a lawsuit forever !!! It might be very tough burden for the linux comunities to shoulder.The previous comment about using the money to advertise linux is a better idea, but i think what would help more is to simply put the money into making linux even better .Unmatched performance is the best advertisement linux could ever get.

samjh
May 18th, 2007, 12:01 PM
You can only sue for defamation if the defendant's claims were false (in Australian law).

We would need to prove on the balance of probabilities, that Microsoft's claims were false. This is an impossible task at the moment, and unlikely to be successful unless Microsoft's patent claims are tried in court and dismissed.

rkh
May 18th, 2007, 07:55 PM
[QUOTE=samjh;2677071]You can only sue for defamation if the defendant's claims were false (in Australian law).

Truth is a defense -to the best of my knowledge- in all common law jurisdictions. This is only one of several reasons why the suit is not legally tenable.

But the biggest reason not to pursue this is that its just a bad idea. Don't feed the Fud.

aquavitae
June 1st, 2007, 06:11 AM
Maybe you have the people, but microsoft has the bucks!!! They could drag out a lawsuit forever !!! It might be very tough burden for the linux comunities to shoulder.The previous comment about using the money to advertise linux is a better idea, but i think what would help more is to simply put the money into making linux even better .Unmatched performance is the best advertisement linux could ever get.

Unmatched performance, yes. Provided people know about it! It seems to me that outside the linux community most people don't know anything about linux - the few who have heard of it believe it to be "a geek's plaything", some incredibly complicated terminal based system that the average user couldn't use. As we know, that is not true, but perhaps a bit of advertising would help to enlighten them.

mozetti
June 1st, 2007, 06:57 AM
But isn't it saying that someone is in possession of stolen property defamatory if the property turns out not to be stolen?

I am also far from convinced that these statements from Microsoft were expressed as an opinion rather than as fact.

What property (your word, not mine) was discussed? Intellectual property, like patents, isn't real property in any way, especially under the law. That's why there are specific laws about intellectual property -- copyright, patent, trademark, et al. The statement made was that the OS infringed on existing patents -- completely different than real property law.

But don't let your lack of understanding stop you from filing a lawsut. Especially since you have no grounds to stand on. I'm sure the judge would appreciate the break from adjudicating real problems. :p