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SZF2001
May 15th, 2007, 07:49 PM
So... How do you guys figure this will effect the slowly-moving Dell and Ubuntu plan going on?

Suddenly, Microsoft seems it fit to bring up patents and intellectual properties... Around the same time Dell and Ubuntu start planning things out for customers. Huh. Maybe it's MS pulling the leash on Dell, with Dell still being on it's knees and hands like a good little dog. Who knows, really.

If only MS would tell exactly what patents are infringed so people can change them... It's a real pity, I think. They accuse of theft and won't even let people know exactly whats been stolen. If only they... I dunno... Opened up? Maybe go Open Source? Of course this is sarcasm. Take it as you will.

hobieone
May 15th, 2007, 07:58 PM
this wasn't too suuden i think ms was waiting for a time to strike. and given some recent changes for gpl v 3 and dell offering linux along with going back to offering windows xp because everyone is now relizing vista and its forced drm is windows me reborn! so ms sprung this at this time to stop the downward swingof vista sales and of it monoply because they reconize people are getting disgruntled with thier product. and using this as a scare tactic plus a mean to force people to thier products and services wether they like it or not.

jclmusic
May 15th, 2007, 08:00 PM
the fact they won't tell probably means it's just FUD, which is desigend to scare people and business away from linux. they are now pulling out all the FUD they can because they see dell's sale of ubuntu as a threat.

scohar70
May 15th, 2007, 08:07 PM
It seems completely like FUD. I don't see who (realistically) Microsoft would sue. They say the end users, but that is not practical. Maybe some of the big-money end users, if they can find any corporations using Ubuntu. They could sue us, but we don't have any money!

dca
May 15th, 2007, 08:11 PM
Well, they've already said they'll tell larger enterprises what Linux infringes on and what they can do to protect themselves. I'm sure it's one-sided and most would be thrown out of court anyways. The thing that gets my goat is I know Novell was informed of what patents were called into question. As far as I can tell they deserve to lose out when GPLv3 is released...

jerrylamos
May 15th, 2007, 08:18 PM
Sounds to me like "didn't win the election so take it to court" and "aren't winning on the marketplace so take it to court". I worked for IBM - their technique is to be a giant patent mill so if someone threatens them about patents they've got patent threats against the accusers.

Cheers, Jerry

hobieone
May 15th, 2007, 08:23 PM
more i think about the more i side with those that say here in the usa our courts should follow with those in europe and make so you can't patent software and hopefully end this nonsense.

Dragonbite
May 15th, 2007, 08:34 PM
I can see where it looks like they may be trying to reign in Dell, and I wouldn't be surprised if they find the dogs not as docile as they think!

Dell will probably stay the course, the patent threats will die down and Dell will look stronger for staying the course. This is an opportunity for Dell to come out stronger and, combined with the Linux offering, help jump back into a stronger position against their competition ( HP and Lenovo).

jclmusic
May 15th, 2007, 08:54 PM
i've just thought, the fact that microsoft say 'linux' infringes on patents is actually a pretty big giveaway to their intent. linux is not one product, and they know that (or at least they should in their positions!), but the people they are trying to scare probably don't!

prizrak
May 15th, 2007, 08:57 PM
If it affects Dell in some way it will most likely be Dell switching to SuSE instead of Ubuntu.

Andrewie
May 15th, 2007, 09:36 PM
Well, they've already said they'll tell larger enterprises what Linux infringes on and what they can do to protect themselves. I'm sure it's one-sided and most would be thrown out of court anyways. The thing that gets my goat is I know Novell was informed of what patents were called into question. As far as I can tell they deserve to lose out when GPLv3 is released...

I don't want to sound like a troll or a fanboy, but did you find that information out?

Daveski
May 15th, 2007, 11:52 PM
Well, they've already said they'll tell larger enterprises what Linux infringes on and what they can do to protect themselves.

Going to businesses and demanding money with menace. Why do the words protection racket and extortion spring to mind?

<edit>

From http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199501831


Microsoft currently collects royalties from some companies that use Linux in their computing environments, Gutierrez said. However, he declined to indicate the number, the dollar amount Microsoft receives from those payments, or identify any of the companies by name.

The ones with the black eyes I guess.


Gutierrez also said Microsoft is not likely to publicly list which specific patents it believes are infringed upon by open source software. "We're not going to have a discussion publicly with that level of detail," he said.

Microsoft has made the patents in question known to corporate Linux users and distributors, Gutierrez said.

So I guess we will find out what they are soon enough.

SZF2001
May 16th, 2007, 07:25 AM
I wonder how long MS will try to "strangle" Linux users with this junk. I keep seeing new information on Google News about the ordeal...

eentonig
May 16th, 2007, 07:34 AM
Gutierrez also said Microsoft is not likely to publicly list which specific patents it believes are infringed upon by open source software. "We're not going to have a discussion publicly with that level of detail," he said.

Microsoft has made the patents in question known to corporate Linux users and distributors, Gutierrez said.

Or basically, they didn't. But they want you to believe they did. If any company did receive such a list, it would have come out as they started to investigate to correctnes of M$ claims.

At least, I wouldn't just pay without any investigation as my neighbor said "Hey, you're using my water. Please pay for it."

Spr0k3t
May 16th, 2007, 08:24 AM
Disable the double-click... that's one less patent infringement.

Seriously though, Microsoft is aware that if they do press the issue, several of their patents will be invalidated. Not to mention may of their partners could turn on them. To paraphrase what Microsoft's legal department is saying:


The following patents are in use on Open Source Operating Systems without proper licensing:
...
That is all

SZF2001
May 16th, 2007, 05:19 PM
Anyone think that this could happen with Nintendo and Sony, or because they are off in Japan, they don't have "intellectual properties" and whatnot?

scohar70
May 16th, 2007, 09:49 PM
Disable the double-click... that's one less patent infringement.

Seriously though, Microsoft is aware that if they do press the issue, several of their patents will be invalidated. Not to mention may of their partners could turn on them. To paraphrase what Microsoft's legal department is saying:

Interesting perspective on this issue in the blogosphere:

http://celeduc.blogspot.com/2007/05/microsoft-patent-troll.html

Dragonbite
May 17th, 2007, 02:42 PM
Well there is one good thing about Microsoft's Patent Attack (from http://www.groklaw.net/


It's Groklaw's Anniversary Today
Wednesday, May 16 2007 @ 11:19 AM EDT

Happy anniversary to us, happy anniversary to us. Today we are 4.
Are we having fun, or what?

The best part is, we know exactly what we'll be doing for the next year, thanks to Microsoft.


.....Having tons *more* fun.:popcorn:

samjh
May 17th, 2007, 02:59 PM
the fact they won't tell probably means it's just FUD, which is desigend to scare people and business away from linux. they are now pulling out all the FUD they can because they see dell's sale of ubuntu as a threat.

Don't confuse FUD with legal strategy.

If you are going to sue someone, you want to keep the evidence you have secret until you need to disclose them. Disclosure is inevitable if one wants to take another party to court, but it doesn't need to be immediate. Microsoft has only disclosed some things that they think can be used to their advantage, but others they have hidden until the time is right (of they are forced to disclose them). One advantage to be gained from early disclosure of selected information is intimidation, which should not be taken lightly when your adversary is an entity as powerful as Microsoft.

Call it FUD, but as a community, Linux should not ignore the claims or downplay them. These claims need to be vigorously defended against. Unfortunately I see little defence from FSF or the Linux community in general; the only thing that seems to be coming out from FSF or Linux communities is just the same old "it's just FUD" preaching to the converted, and nothing to counter the media publicity that Microsoft is generating with all this fuss.

marco123
May 17th, 2007, 03:34 PM
I love the way Micro$oft steals all the features from OSX and Linux, ("User Account Control", Spotlight, Expose etc...), then accuses Linux of stealing their ideas??

Anyone else think this is hypocritical? I think micro$oft are schizophrenic, or mentally deficient in some way! lol :)

SZF2001
May 18th, 2007, 04:05 AM
And thats the thing, too - if MS decided to really start suing some companies or people for the patent infringements on Linux, Apple, despite liking being a lone wolf, would probably be like "Watcha talkin' bout, Willis?" and show their asses up in court for OSX and Vista ripoffs.

dspari1
May 18th, 2007, 04:36 AM
If it affects Dell in some way it will most likely be Dell switching to SuSE instead of Ubuntu.

Or Canonical signing on with Microsoft to keep the Dell deal.

I fear for the worst.

warp99
May 18th, 2007, 07:33 AM
Going to businesses and demanding money with menace. Why do the words protection racket and extortion spring to mind?

<edit>

From http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=199501831


Microsoft currently collects royalties from some companies that use Linux in their computing environments, Gutierrez said. However, he declined to indicate the number, the dollar amount Microsoft receives from those payments, or identify any of the companies by name.

The ones with the black eyes I guess.


Jeremy Allison in an interview with Linux World stated this was occurring:


LinuxWorld: One of the persistent rumors that’s going around is that certain large IT customers have already been paying Microsoft for patent licensing to cover their use of Linux, Samba and other free software projects. And the Novell deal -- isn’t it just taking that and doing the same kind of thing wholesale?

Allison: Yes, that’s true, actually. I mean I have had people come up to me and essentially off the record admit that they had been threatened by Microsoft and had got patent cross license and had essentially taken out a license for Microsoft patents on the free software that they were using, which they then cannot redistribute. I think that would be the restriction. I would have to look quite carefully. So, essentially that’s not allowed. But they’re not telling anyone about it. They’re completely doing it off the record.

http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2007/020707-jeremy-allison.html?page=5

So what Gutierrez is saying is really nothing new, but as Allison states correctly once they take out a license with MS they can't redistribute the software because of Section 7 of the GPL:


7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program.

So here is the main issue. If you make a deal with MS you can't redistribute the GPL'd software and if you don't make a deal MS gets to drag you into court over patent issues. Well I say that the OSS community needs to have a pre-emptive strike on MS using patents from the Open Inventors Network (OIN) before MS decides to go after "low hanging fruit" and litigate some small Linux vendors who don't have the funds to defend themselves. :mad:

kragen
May 18th, 2007, 08:02 AM
The way I understand it...

If Microsoft were to sue, the chances are a fair few of their patents would simply become invalidated. Seeing as they currently make money from other people licencing these patents, I can't see this being a route that they would want to take.
Especially seeing as sueing people won't really make them much money. The only people they can really sue are probably Microsoft customers as well.

Finally, if Microsoft actually do anything then they reveal the areas which are under question - it won't take long for those areas to be fixed - As soon as Microsoft do anything it's just a matter of time before the whole thing goes away and Microsoft have lost their leverage. Linux development might have taken a hit in the meantime, but in the long run it probably won't make that much difference.

I figure that Microsoft will just keep the claims going for as long as possible with the aim of creating doubt for companies who would potentially invest in linux. Keep it going long enough and those same companies would be forced to invest in vista instead, as windows xp becomes outdated and unsupported.

A question for those more knowledgeable than I... Would it help to search for possible patent violations and remove them?