Laptop: Lenovo Thinkpad T61 vs System76 Darter

[maniacmusician]

Okay, so here's the deal. I need to buy a laptop within the next few months. Up till today, I had been set on the System76 Darter. However, I just heard that the T61 was recently released. Now I'm torn again! The Thinkpads are some of my favorite machines in the entire world. Lenovo and Asus are probably my two favorite manufacturers. I'm having a bit of a hard time deciding which to buy.

I know that I will get better hardware support with System76...but I also know that Thinkpads have a reputation of working fabulously with linux. However, I have no way to check how compatible the T61 really is, since even ThinkWiki doesn't have it up on their wiki yet.

Here are the things that I'm worried about with the T61:

- Being able to get a refund for Windows Vista
- the functionality of the fingerprint reader
- the functionality of the Intel Turbo Memory 1GB hard drive cache
- the functionality of the 4-1 media card reader
- Bad battery life

Things I'm worried about with the Darter

- Less for more money (obviously)
- Hibernate doesn't work
- Suspend works depending on the method that you use to put it into suspend
- Partial functionality for the card reader
- The brighten display/dim display function keys don't work out of the box
- The "switch displays" function key doesn't work out of the box

Other than that, I'm pretty sure the Darter will have a better battery life (less intensive GPU, smaller screen, bigger battery). The thinkpad is also a little heavier for some of the same reasons. Obviously the biggest thing that bothers me is that I can get a lot more for my money with Lenovo, but I get better hardware support from System76. It's driving me crazy.

Any suggestions?

[Compucore]

Hi Maniacmusician,

Having at least using two think pads overhere one running feisty and the other an earlier version of ubuntu. Now changed back to windows due to some programming needed to be done elsewhere for windows environment and flash animation with the other. Both thinkpads are almost indestructable when it comes to ubuntu. WHen I had put them throught their paces with ubuntu. But to answer your question about the T61 things that you had mentioned there.

For vista refunds who knows since we all heard about the rumours about it. But no actual real truth about the return policy actually happening with it on any given distro of windows ever getting returned back. We can only speculate on that part.

The fingerprint reader might work. But again it might not work. It is a hit or miss on it. Like all things in life including rim blackberrues being able to work with linux. God knows I have tried with my Rim blackberry 8250 from work. and still can't get it to work with feisty.

The one gig cache never really eard about it over here. Is there some documentation to show it in the specs of the machine or if it is with the hard drive iteself? Not to disbelieve you on it. Just wanted to see the specs for myself. Because sometime you hear a lot of vaporware about things like that. (Nevermind found it on lenovo website.)

The media cars should work no problem as far as I can tell. I've used Laxar jumpdrives and detected it as a extra drive on my thinkpad under linux. So I can only assume it will do the same under the others as well for getting your images for the other types of media.

I hope that answers some of your questions there maniacmusian.

Compucore

[zachtib]

Ooooooh...

I didn't know the T61 was out yet.

I'd say Thinkpad all the way, as I'm a huge fan of them, but that's just me.

[maniacmusician]

Ooooooh...

I didn't know the T61 was out yet.

I'd say Thinkpad all the way, as I'm a huge fan of them, but that's just me.
Just out last week. I found it in my RSS feed from Engadget (Yes, I'm really five days behind on reading those :) )

Thanks, Compucore. that clears it up a little bit.

Still looking for mroe input, of course

[maniacmusician]

After digging around for some reviews, I've found that the T61 has a much smaller battery than past T60 models. The battery life is considerably shorter.

[maniacmusician]

my apologies for doing this, but [bump]

[KiwiNZ]

I read a review somewhere that said the new Thinkpads are getting amazing battery life , like up to 8 hours.

I will try and dig it out .

Thinkpads are good ,but why are their designs so old looking?

[Gargamella]

I read a review somewhere that said the new Thinkpads are getting amazing battery life , like up to 8 hours.

I will try and dig it out .

Thinkpads are good ,but why are their designs so old looking?

don't know why they look so old, anyway if you want one looking better i suggest lenovo 3000 laptops

[maniacmusician]

I read a review somewhere that said the new Thinkpads are getting amazing battery life , like up to 8 hours.

I will try and dig it out .

Thinkpads are good ,but why are their designs so old looking?
The review I read citing bad battery life was from PC Magazine, they're very reliable. I'll also bring out that link. As for them being old looking...I guess that would bother some people, but I don't really mind as long as it's got good specs. The reason is probably that they want to give the thinkpads a more corporate kind of look.


don't know why they look so old, anyway if you want one looking better i suggest lenovo 3000 laptops

Nah those are actually pretty awful. You can hardly customize them, and the price/performance is much better with Thinkpads. I'm just kind of strung out between a Darter and a T61.

edit: KiwiNZ, here's that link: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2127468,00.asp

You were probably thinking of the Thinkpad T60's, which aren't old, but they're not new anymore. The T61 came out last week.

[KiwiNZ]

The review I read citing bad battery life was from PC Magazine, they're very reliable. I'll also bring out that link. As for them being old looking...I guess that would bother some people, but I don't really mind as long as it's got good specs. The reason is probably that they want to give the thinkpads a more corporate kind of look.



Nah those are actually pretty awful. You can hardly customize them, and the price/performance is much better with Thinkpads. I'm just kind of strung out between a Darter and a T61.

edit: KiwiNZ, here's that link: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2127468,00.asp

You were probably thinking of the Thinkpad T60's, which aren't old, but they're not new anymore. The T61 came out last week.


My most humble apologies , it was the T60's I had read , not the T61. I have read so many reviews of late as I too am looking for a new Notebook.

Sorry about the confusion.

One thing I will say about thinkpads , I may think they look old fashioned but they are very robust, especially the screen hinges.They are very well put together.

[mips]

If it was me I would just get the Thinkpad, cannot go wrong if you look at their history with linux. Also very robust.

I actually like their simple design/look.

[KiwiNZ]

If it was me I would just get the Thinkpad, cannot go wrong if you look at their history with linux. Also very robust.

I actually like their simple design/look.

Good points

[FyreBrand]

I'm fairly sure you can't get a refund for an OEM Windows license. The best you could do is try and get Lenovo not to install the license with the system. I've tried finding the page where I was reading about this (either at Dell, Lenovo, or Microsoft). If I remember right it has something to do with the license being tied to the hardware, blah blah blah or whatever excuse they want to give. If I do find the link I will post back, but my Google searches aren't coming up with anything either.

By the way. I would vote for the T61. I'm pretty sold on the Thinkpads.

[maniacmusician]

To make this easier, I've turned this into a poll. So, I'd appreciate it if people would take the time to vote in the options they posted about. Also, make sure that you read the first post, where I'm keeping track of the cons for each laptop.

Thanks!

(It's leaning heavily toward the T61 right now)

[godd4242]

I read a review somewhere that said the new Thinkpads are getting amazing battery life , like up to 8 hours.

I will try and dig it out .

Thinkpads are good ,but why are their designs so old looking?

I always had a thing for that boxy kind of design.
Looks professional, serious, industrial.
It's a nice enough business model I spose.

Heh maniac I'm in the same position as you and you give me this link
:3 *******

In case anyone is wondering, here are some specs from one build of the T61 I dug up:
The T61 I am testing is outfitted with an Intel Core 2 Duo T7700 processor (2.4GHz), 2GB PC2-5300 RAM, 100GB 7200RPM 2.5" Hitachi hard drive, Nvidia Quadro NVS 140M graphics, and a DVD burner. It runs Lenovo's upgraded 14.1" LCD the WXGA+ (1440x900) model as opposed to the WXGA (1280x768) version.

Widescreen, big and fast HDD, absurd processor.

It looks like a steal compared to that Darter.

But I was reading up on the Darter the other day, and all the function buttons you were talking about work, as well as it's gonna be certified to work with Ubuntu.

Fingerprint readers don't work with Ubuntu.
How do I know?
Kids at my school have them on their laptops, and all it is is a different way of logging into a windows session from startup. That seems to say it's a custom configured Microsoft extra.

My built in MediaCard reader works fine with Feisty, used it the other day. (amusingly enough the same media card wouldn't work with other peoples windows machines :3)

PS: Maniac take a look http://http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wutdoidojt5.jpg

I know you're not a huge fan of macs, but ever since the new gen ones came out they've taken a price drop.
It's a bit (well more than a bit) weaker processor, but maybe you're not interested cause you don't have licentious thoughts about Apple computers like I do.

Now I've argued myself into the same predicament you're in:
Hardware support with the Darter
Bang for your buck with the T61

damn that is a tough one

[zachtib]

After digging around for some reviews, I've found that the T61 has a much smaller battery than past T60 models. The battery life is considerably shorter.

you can spec it with up to a 7 cell, though

[maniacmusician]

I always had a thing for that boxy kind of design.
Looks professional, serious, industrial.
It's a nice enough business model I spose.

Heh maniac I'm in the same position as you and you give me this link
:3 *******

In case anyone is wondering, here are some specs from one build of the T61 I dug up:
The T61 I am testing is outfitted with an Intel Core 2 Duo T7700 processor (2.4GHz), 2GB PC2-5300 RAM, 100GB 7200RPM 2.5" Hitachi hard drive, Nvidia Quadro NVS 140M graphics, and a DVD burner. It runs Lenovo's upgraded 14.1" LCD the WXGA+ (1440x900) model as opposed to the WXGA (1280x768) version.

Widescreen, big and fast HDD, absurd processor.

It looks like a steal compared to that Darter.

But I was reading up on the Darter the other day, and all the function buttons you were talking about work, as well as it's gonna be certified to work with Ubuntu.

Fingerprint readers don't work with Ubuntu.
How do I know?
Kids at my school have them on their laptops, and all it is is a different way of logging into a windows session from startup. That seems to say it's a custom configured Microsoft extra.

My built in MediaCard reader works fine with Feisty, used it the other day. (amusingly enough the same media card wouldn't work with other peoples windows machines :3)

PS: Maniac take a look http://http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wutdoidojt5.jpg

I know you're not a huge fan of macs, but ever since the new gen ones came out they've taken a price drop.
It's a bit (well more than a bit) weaker processor, but maybe you're not interested cause you don't have licentious thoughts about Apple computers like I do.

Now I've argued myself into the same predicament you're in:
Hardware support with the Darter
Bang for your buck with the T61

damn that is a tough one
no, I'm not a fan of macs at all :)

about the darter...read this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMagazine/MonthlyReviews/Darter_Laptop That guy just got his darter and is writing a review of it. He's got everything updated, and he specifies which function buttons work and which dont...the ones I mentioned don't work.

about the fingerprint reader....read this: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Integrated_Fingerprint_Reader some of the past versions of the fingerprint reader in ThinkPads have worked in Linux. But yes, it is a tough decision between the two...though the voters in my poll seem to think otherwise :)


you can spec it with up to a 7 cell, though
I was most definitely planning on doing that. Even with that though, I'm not sure how well it would do, especially in comparsion to the T60 and T60p, which were great with battery life.

[Compucore]

Maniacmuscian I am in agreement with MIPS as for which laptop you should get in this case. And I can only speak as well from personal experience as well with at least two IBM thinkpads here as well that I have put linux on already. Go with the thinkpad in this case. And with the history that linux has had with the thinkpad you can't go wrong with them. I'm writing on my R32 thinkpad right now in response to what you want.

One maybe two things might not work. But is it really a big deal for the fingerprint security. I have not seen at work using that feature and we're running on the windows environment. (Shuddering that I still use windows at work.

Compucore

[zeusfaber]

i have a lenovo z60t with fingerprint reader and it works perfectly fine for me. (http://linux.spiney.org/debian_gnu_linux_on_an_ibm_thinkpad_t43p_fingerpri nt_reader) I would imagine it is fairly similar to setup.

hope this helps. btw, i am planning to replace my z60t with a t61 in the next month or so.

[TheMono]

Have you checked the weight of the two machines? I gather the darter is very lightweight...

[jbro]

I've got a Thinkpad T43 and it is a nice, solid machine and with both OpenSUSE and Ubuntu Feisty everything has worked great (I've never tested the modem.) I've got a similar dilemma -- I'm trying to choose between a T60 and a Dell E1505 for my next laptop. They're both have the same specs, the differences are that the Dell is a few hundred dollars cheaper, but the build quality of the Thinkpad cannot be beat.

Anyway, with respect to the fingerprint reader, you will most likely get it to work in the sense that you can set it up to enroll fingerprints and then do fingerprint comparisons using a command-line utility, but I had some trouble integrating that into the system security for use in login and such. I'll admit I didn't try very hard, though.

Regards,
jbro

[LMP900]

I was most definitely planning on doing that. Even with that though, I'm not sure how well it would do, especially in comparsion to the T60 and T60p, which were great with battery life.

If you choose something other than the 4-cell, it will be heavier and I believe the battery protrudes from the back as well. Just something to consider.

Also, (sorry if I missed it in the thread) were you planning on a discrete graphics card, or the Intel GMA X3100? I think you can go a little longer with the integrated graphics, but it all depends on your needs.

[matthinckley]

If you choose something other than the 4-cell, it will be heavier and I believe the battery protrudes from the back as well. Just something to consider.

Also, (sorry if I missed it in the thread) were you planning on a discrete graphics card, or the Intel GMA X3100? I think you can go a little longer with the integrated graphics, but it all depends on your needs.
I am also looking seriously at purchasing a T61.. but I would be getting the 4 cell battery because I don't like the protrusion from the back.. however they do offer a second battery that fits in the CD-ROM bay which I would more than likely purchase.

As far as deciding between the 76 laptop vs T61, I would personally go with the Lenovo. But that is mainly because I absolutely love the utilitarian looks of the Thinkpads.. I however do not like the 3000 series with the semi-silver casing.

anyways.. just my 2 cents.

[LazyBoy]

I love thinkpads, but the T61 is incredibly bleeding edge. It just came out last week and I can find no examples of people putting Linux on it yet.

Are people confident that it can run Ubuntu today??
Does anybody know if the various chipsets are supported?

LB

[gradedcheese]

I have a T60, purposely ordered with Intel wireless and graphics, that works perfectly (right down to the bluetooth, power management, and the fingerprint reader). If you order the default configuration, you'll have Atheros or Broadcom WiFi and possibly ATI graphics, all worth avoiding. Also make sure the onboard Ethernet is still Intel and not Broadcom, the latter works but I've had driver problems with it on IBM desktop PCs. I don't recommend the larger battery -- it's indeed physically larger and sort of wobbles when you carry the laptop around. Anyhow, other than that these laptops are quiet excellent, they are well designed, have good battery life, etc.

The new T61 has some funky hardware that I would be concerned about, I'd also wait a little and see what people say. It has one of those flash memory 'caches' for the hard disk that Vista wants, 'wonder how that works for us?

The worst part is they make you buy it with a Windows license, and they make it very hard to get a refund from what I've read. I'm about to try to get mine refunded, we'll see. If they don't give me a refund, this will be the last ThinkPad I'll buy, which is pretty sad for me :(

[mips]

Currently there is no driver for the Intel 4965AGN wireless cards but it should be out soon as Intel open sources the drivers. However, the ThinkPad 11a/b/g/n wireless would be a another option to go for as it is based on the Atheros chipset, dunno how open that one is ?

The video drivers are not an issue whether you go for the Intel GMA X3100 or the nVidia Quadro NVS 140m. With Intel you will get a more open driver but less performance than with nVidia which is closed source. Go for the WXGA+ panel !!!

I would also go for the Intel Turbo HD memory cache.

The rest of the stuff should work just fine.

The T61 also has a new more robust "roll-cage" to further add to the strenght.

http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T61
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2127379,00.asp (Editors choice award)
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/42x3547.pdf (Hardware maintenance amnual)
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=F2F5363C71FA4D61B176AD5FB80FA5D8
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=42610

Some very good resources:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=2c1ffc9b35477b44560292eb3aedeb03

[LMP900]

I have more information on the battery life and battery size/weight of the ThinkPad T61. I have yet to confirm the validity of these figures, however, it should provide a good comparison between battery types regardless. I hope that this is useful. :)

Source: Notebook Review (http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=123553)


Battery WxD Weight Integrated Dedicated

4-cell 8.14x1.57" 221 grams 3.6 hours 2.4 hours
6-cell 8.81x2.51" 325 grams 5.5 hours 3.7 hours
7-cell 8.81x2.51" 386 grams 6.4 hours 4.3 hours

[mips]

On batteries you have several options. Get the standard 4-cell + 7-cell + Drive Bay Battery. With those you can basically customise your usage according to the day you think you might have.

[rockhoppr]

No offense to the System76 guys because I like what they're doing but I've been a long-time fan of Thinkpads. If weren't primarily a Mac user (or could run OSX on it) I'd be running a thinkpad.

[maniacmusician]

Looks like I'm leaning towards the Thinkpad as well. It is pretty nice...

Mips, I really like what you said about the combination of batteries. That's a really good idea.

Watch out for my next poll; Intel GMA X3100 GM965 vs nVIDIA Quadro NVS 140M

edit: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=446978

[maniacmusician]

I did find this about the X3100 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#Comparison_of_GMA_graphics_cores_and_chi psets

The "Software Support" section seems to imply that Linux drivers for the X3100 are not out yet...that's not good...

[gradedcheese]

it's not too late to buy a nice T60... what T61 feature really does it for you that you can't have in a T60?

[maniacmusician]

it's not too late to buy a nice T60... what T61 feature really does it for you that you can't have in a T60?
firewire

[godd4242]

firewire

That's a killer right there.

[maniacmusician]

That's a killer right there.
yeah, I couldn't believe it when I first saw that it didnt have a firewire port. It's such a common thing nowadays.

[godd4242]

no, I'm not a fan of macs at all :)

about the darter...read this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMagazine/MonthlyReviews/Darter_Laptop That guy just got his darter and is writing a review of it. He's got everything updated, and he specifies which function buttons work and which dont...the ones I mentioned don't work.

about the fingerprint reader....read this: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Integrated_Fingerprint_Reader some of the past versions of the fingerprint reader in ThinkPads have worked in Linux. But yes, it is a tough decision between the two...though the voters in my poll seem to think otherwise :)


I was most definitely planning on doing that. Even with that though, I'm not sure how well it would do, especially in comparsion to the T60 and T60p, which were great with battery life.

If you can get that fingerprint reader to work, as well as find out whether or not all the chipsets are supported well, I'd say the thinkpad.

I'm just shallow, that's why I want a mac :3

[mips]

I did find this about the X3100 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#Comparison_of_GMA_graphics_cores_and_chi psets

The "Software Support" section seems to imply that Linux drivers for the X3100 are not out yet...that's not good...

The X3100 is part of the GMA965 chipset which has been supported for a while now.
http://www.intellinuxgraphics.org/
http://www.intel.com/support/graphics/sb/CS-010512.htm

[mips]

yeah, I couldn't believe it when I first saw that it didnt have a firewire port. It's such a common thing nowadays.

I also found that very weird and short sighted on lenovos part to omit firewire from the T60.

[gradedcheese]

The fingerprint reader works and has worked for a long time, as noted in my post also. It's just a USB device, and it's supported by the open source ThinkFinger user-space driver.

Firewire? Just install a PCMCIA card or whatever, that's not a big deal at all. I'd rather use a card for Firewire than have any unsupported built-in hardware.

I wouldn't get a Mac unless you enjoy the disaster that is Broadcom LAN/wireless ;)

[maniacmusician]

The fingerprint reader works and has worked for a long time, as noted in my post also. It's just a USB device, and it's supported by the open source ThinkFinger user-space driver.

Firewire? Just install a PCMCIA card or whatever, that's not a big deal at all. I'd rather use a card for Firewire than have any unsupported built-in hardware.

I wouldn't get a Mac unless you enjoy the disaster that is Broadcom LAN/wireless ;)
haha yeah. and the general interface. I just personally dislike Macs. But I don't want to start a little war about that here or anything.

I could use a PCMCIA card for firewire, but it would be more convenient to have it built in and working. It's a standardized specification port anyways, so I see no reason why it would be unsupported? It's more likely that some firewire devices will be unsupported. I want to keep the PCMCIA slots open in case I ever need them some time in the very distant future.

Good to know that the fingerprint reader will work though. I wonder though, are there any implementation possibilities for that on Linux? As in, does it allow session locking, or a more general hardware lock on the computer? What exactly would you use the fingerprint reader for under Linux?

[gradedcheese]

When I power on my laptop, the Gnome (GDM) login screen shows up. I enter my user name. it then says "enter your password or swipe finger", I swipe my finger, and then I am logged in. No worries about someone looking over my shoulder as I type the password. Similarly, you can have PAM use it for other passwords.

[maniacmusician]

When I power on my laptop, the Gnome (GDM) login screen shows up. I enter my user name. it then says "enter your password or swipe finger", I swipe my finger, and then I am logged in. No worries about someone looking over my shoulder as I type the password. Similarly, you can have PAM use it for other passwords.
That's great. I hope KDM supports this functionality too.

[Extreme Coder]

When I power on my laptop, the Gnome (GDM) login screen shows up. I enter my user name. it then says "enter your password or swipe finger", I swipe my finger, and then I am logged in. No worries about someone looking over my shoulder as I type the password. Similarly, you can have PAM use it for other passwords.
How much tinkering with sources and stuff did it need to get the fingerprint working? Because according to the ThinkWiki, there are some steps needed to get it working(which is still a bit far from Just Works(tm) )

And am I the only one here who likes how the Darter looks more than the Thinkpad?

Extreme Coder

[gradedcheese]

No, you install ThinkFinger, rather than the thing ThinkWiki says to do. it's very easy and documented. I wrote some instructions (http://andrey.thedotcommune.com/thinkpad_t60.html) for how to do it, though mostly of it is copied from the README that comes with ThinkFinger.



And am I the only one here who likes how the Darter looks more than the Thinkpad?


Yeah.



- The "switch displays" function key doesn't work out of the box


I should add, this is a problem with all T60 and similar laptops :( Makes giving presentations a pain. I don't know if it's fixed on the T61, my guess is that it's not.

[maniacmusician]

No, you install ThinkFinger, rather than the thing ThinkWiki says to do. it's very easy and documented. I wrote some instructions (http://andrey.thedotcommune.com/thinkpad_t60.html) for how to do it, though mostly of it is copied from the README that comes with ThinkFinger.



Yeah.



I should add, this is a problem with all T60 and similar laptops :( Makes giving presentations a pain. I don't know if it's fixed on the T61, my guess is that it's not.
I don't think it's a problem with the laptop, but rather, how Ubuntu deals with the key. My guess is that it may be fixed with the release of the next X.org. Or whenever the ubuntu devs take an interest in it (they've already got most of the other function keys to work)

[gradedcheese]

it works in Windows, but not in any Linux distributions, and it's a laptop-specific problem (ie: doesn't matter which video card you have). My guess is that the key doesn't do something that it's supposed to do (like a standard ACPI event) and there's some hack or workground that got implemented in a Windows driver that no one outside of Lenovo knows about. The reason the other keys work is that they follow a specification. Hopefully it's an EC or BIOS level bug and they can fix it with a firmware update, though if they hacked around it now, they might never even bother doing that. The workaround is pretty simple, just boot with the projector connected.

[snoop]

I am also looking at buying a thinkpad vs a darter. As far as I see, the darter is more expensive but also has longer battery life and is lighter. I do like the look of the thinkpad and would love the darter if it came in black.

Does anyone know the compatibility issues between the thinkpad vs the darter?

I know the darter supposedly has broken support for hibernate and suspend, but is there anything else?

[crosslink]

I'm also considering a T61.

The thing that *really* caught my interest was the T61's low heat/noise output. To me, this is worth a lot. Anyone with first hand experience here?

[timpino]

For a review on T61 check this link: http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=3708&review=ThinkPad+T61

The site covers almost every notebook so it's a good source of information :)

[grndslm]

I was in this same dilemma a few months ago...T60 versus PortableOne SX (which is the same machine as the Darter).

The whole thing ultimately depends on the *screen*!! T60's Anti-Glare Matte display versus the SX's Transflective display.

I went out on a limb because this ASUS Z35F was very new, but luckily most everything worked...needed to tweak the touchpad to my desire, get sound to work, and unload and reload the ipw3945 module with suspend and resume (all in all, it didn't take too much time really). Other than that, the only thing I couldn't get to work was the brightness keys on the keyboard (which is now fixed with a BIOS update).

Feisty has brought along this weird hard drive bug which was killing me, freezes without a cd in the drive....I tried System76's driver and it froze every time I put a blank cd inside it for burning. I reinstalled Feisty, and with no System76 driver it's been good so far... but I'm fairly certain it'll start acting up soon enough. Maybe not, maybe hal or kernel or whatever got fixed...

Anyway, bottom line is that System76's screen is the glossy kind, which I reeeeaaalllly don't like. I like matte screens, like the Thinkpads have, a lot more. But I decided to try PortableOne's TrioView screen and I do like it a lot. I wanted to try out a tranflective laptop screen because of my Treo 650's screen. I must say that it is totally awesome. Sometimes if there is glare or bright light over a portion of the screen, it makes the dimmer part harder to see....but definitely doable in ALL conditions. I hated having to right click the power-manager applet to change my brightness....but now the BIOS update has solved that problem!! Woo hoo, thanks Tom!

Anyway...I'd check out PortableOne's SX: http://laptopsinc.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=SXZ35&Category_Code=P1SX

I like the SX's silver/black color better. Ivan gives the best customer support of all laptop distributors. He has them configured just the way you need 'em....with 1GB Ram, Hitachi 80GB 72000RPM HD, the slowest Core 2 Duo with Arctic Silver 5 thermal paste (NOT soldered in, so you can upgrade to faster Core2Duo in future when prices are cheaper -- doubtful, tho...you'll want to replace the hard drive with a 64GB Solid State Disk when the price is right for you; hard drives are the biggest bottleneck in computing).

I enjoy the keyboard (the Fn & Ctrl keys are swapped from my Sony Vaio, tho...I liked the Vaio's placement better)...has a good feel, and it's not loud. This machine is very quiet unless in totally silent room, very cool considering c2d....my last machine's heat dissipation was not this good. The last PowerPC Macbook seems to be -- no joke -- twice the heat of this machine; that thing gets HoT!!

I also love the size, weight, 13" widescreen -- perfect, IMO. A 12" widescreen could possibly be a tad nicer...but not by much. I think that 13" widescreen is just the hotspot. Once you've had it in your lap, and typed on this keyboard, taken it in all lighting conditions (took it out by my apartment's pool and used ssh -X -Y hostAddy xmms to control my speakers from afar. Friggin' sweet!!

The overall design is nice, the placement of the speakers below the screen, so that they're always facing your head, usb on all three sides, sturdy hinges (*very* important to me, considering the Thinkpad's metal hinges...this ASUS laptop's hinges are not going to loosen up, and I was informed that they can be tightened if necessary, but it really shouldn't be).

My only two gripes about this laptop are that the lid cover, on top of the screen, scratches pretty damn easily...just from being next to some books in a backpack for a couple weeks. That's not good at all, but I haven't had that many more scratches since that first month or so for some reason. Also, the touchpad buttons are kinda loud for totally silent settings, just like the fan. This machine might actually be louder than a Thinkpad, I've never gotten that close to really distinguish which was louder. Anyways, if they could make these noises *just a tad* quieter and made the lid A LOT more scratch resistant...it'd be flawless. And as of now, these negatives aren't deal breakers at all....this machine just feels so right. And it all works with Ubuntu, tho you might need to tweak a few very minor things mentioned above...which is common to every computer platform still in 2007. Ahh...someday!!

Sorry this post is so long, I got carried away. Have a good day!

[justaguynpc]

Okay, so here's the deal. I need to buy a laptop within the next few months. Up till today, I had been set on the System76 Darter. However, I just heard that the T61 was recently released. Now I'm torn again! The Thinkpads are some of my favorite machines in the entire world. Lenovo and Asus are probably my two favorite manufacturers. I'm having a bit of a hard time deciding which to buy.

I know that I will get better hardware support with System76...but I also know that Thinkpads have a reputation of working fabulously with linux. However, I have no way to check how compatible the T61 really is, since even ThinkWiki doesn't have it up on their wiki yet.



Here are the things that I'm worried about with the T61:

- Being able to get a refund for Windows Vista
- the functionality of the fingerprint reader
- the functionality of the Intel Turbo Memory 1GB hard drive cache
- the functionality of the 4-1 media card reader
- Bad battery life

Things I'm worried about with the Darter

- Less for more money (obviously)
- Hibernate doesn't work
- Suspend works depending on the method that you use to put it into suspend
- Partial functionality for the card reader
- The brighten display/dim display function keys don't work out of the box
- The "switch displays" function key doesn't work out of the box

Other than that, I'm pretty sure the Darter will have a better battery life (less intensive GPU, smaller screen, bigger battery). The thinkpad is also a little heavier for some of the same reasons. Obviously the biggest thing that bothers me is that I can get a lot more for my money with Lenovo, but I get better hardware support from System76. It's driving me crazy.

Any suggestions?

So ........................ Have you made up your mind, or getting your mind "around" the whole concept? I, too, have been seriously looking at the T61, and at the moment they are ON SALE!!! Check it out!

Cheers

[maniacmusician]

So ........................ Have you made up your mind, or getting your mind "around" the whole concept? I, too, have been seriously looking at the T61, and at the moment they are ON SALE!!! Check it out!

Cheers
Yes, I've decided to get the T61. I have noticed, like you, that they are priced very nicely right now and I want to get one, but I'm not sure I have the cash at the moment. I'm looking into it.

[stevex]

The System76 Darter looks amazing, but I am very prone to IBM. I have used Ubuntu 6.06LTS on my R40 for a few months now and today I played around with 7.04 on my brothers T30 which came in today but he wanted Windows XP Pro on there (what a hassle that was compared to the ease of getting Ubuntu on there). So I have to say the IBM machines are nice and the T61 also looks fantastic. Being a Thinkpad freak, I am biased and I say go with the Thinkpad.

[chili555]

Love my T60 running Feisty. I get 4+ hours on the bigger battery but run the display at full brightness and wireless running.

Perhaps this will help: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T61

[snoop]

I see that the T61 has the GM965 x3100 video card, and that the drivers are here, http://intellinuxgraphics.org/, but would this be in the backports repository for feisty? are there any things that might be a problem in the T61 compared to the R60e? like newer chip, newer video card, etc..

Also how is the battery life for the T61? especially under ubuntu?

Thanks!

[GaryH]

maniacmusician,

My T20 still runs perfectly after running almost continuously for the past 6 six years.:guitar:
I'm thinking about getting a T61 what with the Father's Day pricing and all. Do you think it'll come up and run Feisty right out of the chute? Any special order options to avoid compatibility problems?

Peace,
GaryH

[meanimal]

Intel Turbo Cache: as far as I can tell, no one has done any work yet on supporting it. It also looks like some other laptop manufacturers have opted out of it (HP, Sony), thus it might not gain popularity. Then again, maybe it doesn't do any harm to just have it sitting in your laptop for a couple years until it's supported.

Wireless options:
* There are reports that the Intel 4965AGN works with ndiswrapper, but this isn't ideal (ie power management doesn't always play nice). Intel's new iwlwifi has just started supporting it, but don't expect it to be supported in Ubuntu for one or two releases.
* The Intel 3945ABG is well supported natively but there's a general consensus that its reception isn't as good as the Thinkpad Atheros chipset (look around in the Thinkpad forums for opinions).
* I'd suggest the Thinkpad a/b/g card, which is an Atheros chipset well supported by madwifi
* The Thinkpad a/b/g/n chipset is a newer Atheros chipset with very very recent support by madwifi, very little user experience though (look it up in thinkwiki).

Graphics:
If you're serious about gaming, the nvidia card is the only way to go. They provide much higher quality drivers than ATI, so this is a welcome change.

However if work comes first, please get the Intel x3100! Intel works much more closely with x.org and produces very high quality open source drivers. In time, as the drivers improve, perhaps we can play a few games at full speed, but there's no evidence of that yet. At least Intel's drivers support power management, dual head and modesetting. I've also seen benchmarks that the GMA 3000 family performs more than acceptably well with AIGLX/Beryl. I believe the Intel driver in Feisty should support this card, as it's in the GMA 3000 family.

CPU:
One thing to know is the virtualisation features only come with the T7200 and greater. This might be valuable as XEN become more user-friendly in the future. It might not matter as much for Vmware.

RAM:
This isn't Linux-related, but I've heard that running two chips of different sizes will make them run at half the throughput. Does anyone know if this is true? (hint: 2 1GB chips is really the best value right now...)

I ordered one yesterday, can't wait! Although don't expect decent shipping times from Lenovo! I don't believe a single CTO (customised) T61 has shipped yet at the time of this writing. Some people have already been waiting five weeks. five weeks seems to be the average time to ship CTO T60s as well, with some cases being much worse. It's a big problem.

If you want it fast, don't buy CTO!

[maniacmusician]

what is CTO?

I'd prefer to get intel wifi if possible, i heard the atheros chipsets were a pain in the *** to get working...

and yes, I'm getting 2 1GB sticks, I am getting the T7200, and the X3100. Dont care about gaming, its more than good enough for beryl. and I was hoping to get the new intel wifi chipset...sucks that its not supported

[brim4brim]

RAM:
This isn't Linux-related, but I've heard that running two chips of different sizes will make them run at half the throughput. Does anyone know if this is true? (hint: 2 1GB chips is really the best value right now...)


Using 2 dimms of RAM with different specs, makes it run at the speed of the slower one (assuming they are compatible). So if you have a 1GB dimm and a 512MB dimm, they'll both run at 512Mb so you end up with 1GB RAM.

AFAIK anyway. I just read this somewhere else.

[compmodder26]

That doesn't make any sense. By that logic, you are saying that 512mb stick is useless. If you have a stick of 1GB and a stick of 512MB then you have 1.512 GB of RAM at your disposal. Now if those two sticks have different speeds and different latencies, then the faster one gets throttled down to the speed and latency of the slower.

[maniacmusician]

That doesn't make any sense. By that logic, you are saying that 512mb stick is useless. If you have a stick of 1GB and a stick of 512MB then you have 1.512 GB of RAM at your disposal. Now if those two sticks have different speeds and different latencies, then the faster one gets throttled down to the speed and latency of the slower.
Exactly. It's perfectly fine to have two sticks of different sizes lol. That would be awful, if you couldn't do that.

[nooseisloose]

R61

[maniacmusician]

R61
I'll check it out, but what advantages would that offer over the T61?

...and why is it so much cheaper? *googles for reviews*

[perce]

- Less for more money (obviously)
- Hibernate doesn't work
- Suspend works depending on the method that you use to put it into suspend
- Partial functionality for the card reader
- The brighten display/dim display function keys don't work out of the box
- The "switch displays" function key doesn't work out of the box

Other than that, I'm pretty sure the Darter will have a better battery life (less intensive GPU, smaller screen, bigger battery). The thinkpad is also a little heavier for some of the same reasons.

I know this thread is kind of old, but I'll post a comment because things have improved greatly
on he Darter in he last weeks.

All the problem listed by Maniacmusician have been solved, now everything works either out of the box, or after some fix which is explain in he forums, Only few bugs remain (but what computer doesn't have any?) the most annoying of which is a freeze caused by the CD drive, however it happens very rarely, and a fix should arrive shortly, The cost is a bit above the average of course, but there aren't many cheap laptops below 2Kg, The battery life for me has
never been nearly comparable with what system76 claims, at best I get a little more than 3,5 hours.

[mips]

I'll check it out, but what advantages would that offer over the T61?

...and why is it so much cheaper? *googles for reviews*

Stick with T or X series. R series is more budget, more bulk. Not a bad notebook but not in the same league as the T series.

[Tobba25]

R61

Hey there! Im in the marked for a R61, but I am holding back because I cannot find any reviews on the Ubuntu experience with this machine... Does stuff work out of the box, or what?

I am thinking of buying one of those with the intel X3100 (?) graphics card, not the nVIDIA.

[dawdler]

A sales person @ system76 has informed me that the darter is getting an upgrade this mid-july. This probably means the darter will be getting latest intel chipset as well as the X3100 for graphics. Price is TBD...

[Tobba25]

Hey there! Im in the marked for a R61, but I am holding back because I cannot find any reviews on the Ubuntu experience with this machine... Does stuff work out of the box, or what?

I am thinking of buying one of those with the intel X3100 (?) graphics card, not the nVIDIA.

Hello!

I bought the R61, and I am very pleased with this machine. I went to this from a PowerBook rev A, the everlasting one. So for me to give cred to r61 is pretty good!

Not everything works out of the box, but I reckon it will with the next ubuntu coming in october. Ive been told that much of the hardware is very new.

[snoop]

A sales person @ system76 has informed me that the darter is getting an upgrade this mid-july. This probably means the darter will be getting latest intel chipset as well as the X3100 for graphics. Price is TBD...

And it might even come in black!

[bonzodog]

I have just bought an Acer Laptop the Travelmate 4200 WLMi, and *everything* works out of the box in feisty, wireless included. It's an intel core single, 512MB RAM, 15.4 WXGA screen, and uses intel graphics and intel networking. The brightness controls even work in feisty.

[sgt_urankar]

The last i posted was to check out linux journal.com look up the issue from january 2007. The manufacturer is rcubed. their web site is shoprcubed.com. check it out and see if it will meet your needs.

[snoop]

From a few posts in the forum, it seems that the thinkpad t61 and r61 are having problems with sound, video, etc...

I was thinking about getting an r61 - seems like a great value for the price, but the problems are seemingly vast.

[maniacmusician]

From a few posts in the forum, it seems that the thinkpad t61 and r61 are having problems with sound, video, etc...

I was thinking about getting an r61 - seems like a great value for the price, but the problems are seemingly vast.
due to last minute budget constraints, I just went with a dell. They're not as good in terms of build quality, but they're a hell of a lot cheaper. I'm probably saving around 700 dollars or so.

[Tobba25]

From a few posts in the forum, it seems that the thinkpad t61 and r61 are having problems with sound, video, etc...

I was thinking about getting an r61 - seems like a great value for the price, but the problems are seemingly vast.
I believe and hope that those problems are temporarely. I truly enjoy lugging this piece of square plastic around. The chipsets are the same as many, many producers will be using in the future. Lenovo are early adopters.

[xubu_caapn]

I'm not going to read 8 pages of posts so I don't know if you're still looking, but I'm on a Thinkpad T60, and I called Lenovo and talked to several employees and sales associates concerning getting a refund for Windows XP. They cited things like "licensing agreements" and other nonsense as to why I couldn't get one. I talked to several associates. They were not only unhelpful, but chronically unpleasant.

[jrusso2]

what is CTO?

I'd prefer to get intel wifi if possible, i heard the atheros chipsets were a pain in the *** to get working...

and yes, I'm getting 2 1GB sticks, I am getting the T7200, and the X3100. Dont care about gaming, its more than good enough for beryl. and I was hoping to get the new intel wifi chipset...sucks that its not supported

The atheros is not that hard to get working and is much better then the Intel wireless.