Pidgin: Could we be getting it soon?

[Fylk]

Well, for any one who has noticed, Pidgin got a new distrobution install recently. Could this be a sign that soon our people will see the light?

[Rescue9]

heard that deb already has it, and that we'd be getting it in the reposatories within the week.

[Fylk]

Well, there is a deb floating around, but its not that well done.

[tehkain]

Well, there is a deb floating around, but its not that well done.

He meant Debian.

[Adamant1988]

Ubuntu will have it in the next release. Functionally it's not any different than GAIM really, there's a slight UI update (All users look the same in your client, no matter what service they use) but it really isn't that big of a deal. I like Pidgin's UI updates so I just compiled from source, and there is a .deb for it on getdeb.

[Mateo]

No, we won't, the Ubuntu people don't think it's that important, and since their opinion is the only one that matters, we will not be privy to repository version for a long time, if not 6 months. It's sad that people let fundamentalist philosophy get in the way of doing what they are supposed to be doing: servicing their customers, but that's the way it is.

[Kujen]

Well, there is a deb floating around, but its not that well done.

And what exactly is not well done about it?

[Mateo]

And what exactly is not well done about it?

For starters it doesn't automatically update.

[taurus]

No, we won't, the Ubuntu people don't think it's that important, and since their opinion is the only one that matters, we will not be privy to repository version for a long time, if not 6 months. It's sad that people let fundamentalist philosophy get in the way of doing what they are supposed to be doing: servicing their customers, but that's the way it is.

Hey, you need to chill out. After a while, it's started to get a little old.

[Mateo]

Hey, you need to chill out. After a while, it's started to get a little old.

I have a right to express my opinion, whether you agree with it or not. You have a right to reply in disagreement as well.

[taurus]

Opinion is one thing but whining about how the Ubuntu developers don't care about users over and over again is another thing.

[Mateo]

Opinion is one thing but whining about how the Ubuntu developers don't care about users over and over again is another thing.

I didn't start the thread. I'm just replying to it. People "whine" about Windows all the time and you nor anyone else ever tells them to stop. So please stop threatening me. I have broken no rules. You can not single me out because you disagree. That is not fair.

[loell]

here we go again, ;)

i am just a user too, not an ubuntu dev. and i think its reasonable to just include it the next release.

@mateo

i notice your implication and assertion from the closed thread and in this thread that it be included in feisty repo?

and that you felt strongly about this issue. why not just wait in the next release for such an inclusion of a little improvement?

[Mateo]

i notice your implication and assertion from the closed thread and in this thread that it be included in feisty repo?

and that you felt strongly about this issue. why not just wait in the next release for such an inclusion of a little improvement?

Because I would like the software now. The software is available now. It works now. So there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to have it now. The only reason that exists is that the Ubuntu overlords don't want me to have it now. And I believe that's wrong, and a terrible business model.

[taurus]

I didn't start the thread. I'm just replying to it. People "whine" about Windows all the time and you nor anyone else ever tells them to stop. So please stop threatening me. I have broken no rules. You can not single me out because you disagree. That is not fair.

I have never threaten you or anybody here so I don't know where you get that from. And I have never singled you out. I've noticed that how almost ever thread that you are involved, you always end up about how Ubuntu developers don't care about users and how the opinions of users don't matter and so on so far. After a while, it's getting a little old. That's all I replied so tell me where in that part that I've threaten you?

Seriously, you need to go outside and get some fresh air or something.

[Mateo]

I have never threaten you or anybody here so I don't know where you get that from. And I have never singled you out. I've noticed that how almost ever thread that you are involved, you always end up about how Ubuntu developers don't care about users and how the opinions of users don't matter and so on so far. After a while, it's getting a little old. That's all I replied so tell me where in that part that I've threaten you?

Seriously, you need to go outside and get some fresh air or something.

Ok, sorry for the misunderstanding. I apparently mistakeningly interpreted your post as telling me as a moderator that I was not allowed to post my opinions on the subject anymore. Now that I see this was merely a friendly suggestion and not an order we are fine. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Adamant1988]

Because I would like the software now. The software is available now. It works now. So there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to have it now. The only reason that exists is that the Ubuntu overlords don't want me to have it now. And I believe that's wrong, and a terrible business model.



Then go compile it from source and quit being a whiny, egotistical brat? It's 4 commands in a terminal, that's the price you pay when you want to rush things in Linux... 4 commands.

The closed repository model is the way it is for very good reasons, don't like it? Go use Arch, Gentoo, or Debian Sid. You have a choice, you can do what I did and compile it from the widely available source code, or if you want to be even more lazy you can to go getdeb and get the .deb files for it and double click them to install. I know it sounds like a lot of work, but the new icon theme in pidgin SOOOOO makes it worth it. The 'great Ubuntu overlords' have other things to worry about with their business model, for starters they should be worrying about the people who pay them and not some whiny poster on a forum that they barely acknowledge.

[igknighted]

Because I would like the software now. The software is available now. It works now. So there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to have it now. The only reason that exists is that the Ubuntu overlords don't want me to have it now. And I believe that's wrong, and a terrible business model.

There are lots of "give it to me now" distro's out there, Ubuntu is not one of them. Adding software after release and major version changes can lead to instability. Many would complain just as vehemently if Ubuntu risked stability for what amounts to minor UI changes that you could get be installing a new theme. You should try Sidux or Debian Sid if you want a distro that gets all the latest and greatest.

The reason you are drawing heat is because you are making your attacks personal. Please, the Ubuntu devs are out to make a great distribution. Don't make it seem like they are out to get you and rather keep your comments focused on the issue and you will be treated with respect regardless of whether others agree with you.

EDIT: and you certainly can have it now. It is much easier to install something that is not in the repo's than for someone who doesn't want major version changes to choose not to upgrade it. So there are practical reasons why it is not being added.

[Mateo]

There are lots of "give it to me now" distro's out there, Ubuntu is not one of them. Adding software after release and major version changes can lead to instability.

This can't be true. They indiscriminately leave out all new software, not just new software that has major bug problems. So we don't know if Pidgin has major bugs. I haven't heard anyone complain about bugs when they installed it. The devs haven't released a statement detailing any bugs. So we have no reason to think there is any code reason why it can't be released immediately.


EDIT: and you certainly can have it now. It is much easier to install something that is not in the repo's than for someone who doesn't want major version changes to choose not to upgrade it. So there are practical reasons why it is not being added.

I beg to differ. A person who doesn't want the software has to simply uncheck the item from the update-manager. A person who does want it the current way has to keep track of development so they know when new versions come out, download and install all of these versions. Then they have to also keep the latest source so that they can then uninstall Pidgin before the release of Gutsy so it doesn't interfere with the repo version when it finally does arrive.

It's an extreme hassle, we both know that. It's the reason they invented apt in the first place. Otherwise we'd all be using slackware, and who wants that ;)

[igknighted]

This can't be true. They indiscriminately leave out all new software, not just new software that has major bug problems. So we don't know if Pidgin has major bugs. I haven't heard anyone complain about bugs when they installed it. The devs haven't released a statement detailing any bugs. So we have no reason to think there is any code reason why it can't be released immediately.

The problem is only partially with bugs in the software, but also in how it interacts with other programs. Sometimes a program looks for a specific version of another (or a library) that could get thrown off or other various issues. Plus, there is always an app people could want added. If they pick and choose you run into the "but you added that one" issue, and so much time will go into testing backports for this release that the new release wont get proper time from devs. It's Ubuntu's policy to use this method, to use you analogy about slack, if you want the latest and greatest you should use a distro that does this.



I beg to differ. A person who doesn't want the software has to simply uncheck the item from the update-manager. A person who does want it the current way has to keep track of development so they know when new versions come out, download and install all of these versions. Then they have to also keep the latest source so that they can then uninstall Pidgin before the release of Gutsy so it doesn't interfere with the repo version when it finally does arrive.

It's an extreme hassle, we both know that. It's the reason they invented apt in the first place. Otherwise we'd all be using slackware, and who wants that ;)

Umm, I disable update manager (or any graphical tool) and use "apt-get upgrade" whenever I feel like it for updates. Many do this as the updater is really annoying and slow. I don't feel like manually deslecting pidgin every time or having to lock Gaims version so a few people can be happy, while "dpkg -i pidgin.deb" would install your program perfectly nicely (or just double clicking it). So no, I'm not kidding you. It is easier to install it yourself (IMHO).

[Polygon]

ubuntus policy says it, and i doubt that it will ever change. major new releases of software (example: like when dapper had firefox 1.5.0.7 or whatever, and firefox 2.0 came out, since that was a new major release of firefox, it was not added to the repos) do not get added to the repos until the next release of ubuntu. why? since its a new major release, a lot has changed and they dont know if one of these major changes might do something to compromise the stability and functionality of a ubuntu system. So they add it to the next version where they have people testing it and see if there are any problems.

ive heard that they will add it as its just a minor upgrade (like someone said, it was really just the UI and the name due to a legal matter) and since it was from like 2.0.0 beta 7 to 2.0, i dont see why they wouldn't include it.

[jcconnor]

Edited - solved it already

[Mateo]

The problem is only partially with bugs in the software, but also in how it interacts with other programs. Sometimes a program looks for a specific version of another (or a library) that could get thrown off or other various issues.

I understand that, but they do this indiscriminately. Unless every single piece of new software has compatibility problems, this can not possibly be the reason.

They aren't just happening not to get around to adding the software to the repos because of bugs and compatibility. They have decided in advance not to do it. Pidgin could be 100% ready to go (and as I said before, I've heard no one complain yet), but they decided in advance not to add it.

Besides, I think you are overstating the stability of the software that even is in the repos. I happen to know that the repo version of Hellanzb has a major bug in it, that was fixed months ago and hasn't been updated in the ubuntu repositories. And yes, I filed a bug about it.



Umm, I disable update manager (or any graphical tool) and use "apt-get upgrade" whenever I feel like it for updates. Many do this as the updater is really annoying and slow. I don't feel like manually deslecting pidgin every time or having to lock Gaims version so a few people can be happy, while "dpkg -i pidgin.deb" would install your program perfectly nicely (or just double clicking it). So no, I'm not kidding you. It is easier to install it yourself (IMHO).

It would still be more difficult because, again, there are more than 1 releases of any software within 6 months. So if pidgin is released 10 times before Gutsy, I have to download a deb 10 times. Which means tracking the development of Pidgin. And tracking the release cycle of getdeb. Still a lot more work for the person who wants the new software on time.

You should lobby for a more developed CLI updating tool so it's easier to exclude the packages you don't want.

[Fylk]

I have this to say: This isn't that big a release, its just a move from the beta we currently have to the final release. Also, sometimes an update before a new version is sometimes important.

[igknighted]

You should lobby for a more developed CLI updating tool so it's easier to exclude the packages you don't want.

If I had a problem with it I would code a bash script to do that, but it's not a really large concern with me.

Look, the devs could spend all their time trying to test which apps were OK to backport and which weren't or they can work on the new version. Personally, I want them to work on the new release. If you want to start a group that would test programs for backporting as part of MOTU or something then propose that, but the people working don't have time to do it and their job. They can't pick and choose without getting into fights about "why did you add this and not this other program", so the simple solution is nothing gets major version updates.

[igknighted]

I have this to say: This isn't that big a release, its just a move from the beta we currently have to the final release. Also, sometimes an update before a new version is sometimes important.

The name change alone could cause a lot of issues with scripts and such (and custom settings).

[Mateo]

If I had a problem with it I would code a bash script to do that, but it's not a really large concern with me.

Look, the devs could spend all their time trying to test which apps were OK to backport and which weren't or they can work on the new version. Personally, I want them to work on the new release. If you want to start a group that would test programs for backporting as part of MOTU or something then propose that, but the people working don't have time to do it and their job. They can't pick and choose without getting into fights about "why did you add this and not this other program", so the simple solution is nothing gets major version updates.

They already do pick and choose. Firefox new "minor" versions gets released almost immediately, while software like Hellanzb, which has a major bug, goes 6 months without being updated.

I think they should spend the lion share of their time working on getting the software to the people, because that's what people want, software. They want the new hot feature to their programs.

I don't get the point of the whole "new release" thing. All feisty is is Edgy+new software. If you have new software all the time, then there is no "new release", no? I think software developers should work on software, not operating system guys. They should work on making sure the software runs, that's all.

[igknighted]

They already do pick and choose. Firefox new "minor" versions gets released almost immediately, while software like Hellanzb, which has a major bug, goes 6 months without being updated.

I think they should spend the lion share of their time working on getting the software to the people, because that's what people want, software. They want the new hot feature to their programs.

I don't get the point of the whole "new release" thing. All feisty is is Edgy+new software. If you have new software all the time, then there is no "new release", no? I think software developers should work on software, not operating system guys. They should work on making sure the software runs, that's all.

That is called a rolling release distribution. As mentioned above: Arch, Gentoo, Debian Sid and others all use this philosophy. You might want to check them out. Some distro's (like Fedora) add more throughout a release to stay as up to date as possible, you might check that out too.

[Mateo]

That is called a rolling release distribution. As mentioned above: Arch, Gentoo, Debian Sid and others all use this philosophy. You might want to check them out. Some distro's (like Fedora) add more throughout a release to stay as up to date as possible, you might check that out too.

This is off-topic so this is the last time I will address this here. Debian is the only apt-distro of those and I will not use a non-apt distro. Debian has the same open-source fanaticism that I hate and is like a 12CD distro so I'm not touching it. If you want to get rid of me so bad, find me a distribution that is rolling release, installs multimedia codecs by default, is apt, 1DVD maximum, and has repositories at least as large as Ubuntu's. I bet some people here will be tripping over themselves to find one ;)

[taurus]

http://www.knoppix.com/
http://www.knoppix.net/

Bye.

[Polygon]

They already do pick and choose. Firefox new "minor" versions gets released almost immediately, while software like Hellanzb, which has a major bug, goes 6 months without being updated.

I think they should spend the lion share of their time working on getting the software to the people, because that's what people want, software. They want the new hot feature to their programs.

I don't get the point of the whole "new release" thing. All feisty is is Edgy+new software. If you have new software all the time, then there is no "new release", no? I think software developers should work on software, not operating system guys. They should work on making sure the software runs, that's all.

im sure all of this is just edgy + new software

http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/704tour

not to mention all of the other technical under the hood improvements.

and they DO try to include new updates of software in new releases (like edgy, fiesty), but they cant get every single program in their repos..... i mean there are 21404 pieces of software in synaptic. Do you think the devs have time to check for new releases of every single program in the repos. I am pretty sure that there is some part of the dev team that is reponsible for packaging new versions of software for new versions of ubuntu.

and if we had new updates all the time without checking to see if they work properly with each new release, then there would be software with one bug that would make something else not work, and so on. With new releases, they know exactly what are in the repos, they have a bunch of people testing it and reporting bugs, and when the new release finally comes out, when they upgrade packages, they are able to test it to make sure that it doesnt cause any problems. thats the whole point of these releases, so your sure that certain releases (like dapper and any other LTS's) are stable and have known stable programs in the dapper repos,, unlike edgy that had a lot of "beta" and "wip" software in the repos,

[Mateo]

http://www.knoppix.net/

Bye.

KDE :(

[Polygon]

get the DVD. it has like every single desktop environment included on it,including gnome, kde and maybe like icewm and a few others as well.

[igknighted]

This is off-topic so this is the last time I will address this here. Debian is the only apt-distro of those and I will not use a non-apt distro. Debian has the same open-source fanaticism that I hate and is like a 12CD distro so I'm not touching it. If you want to get rid of me so bad, find me a distribution that is rolling release, installs multimedia codecs by default, is apt, 1DVD maximum, and has repositories at least as large as Ubuntu's. I bet some people here will be tripping over themselves to find one ;)

Debian Sid is not Debian like you know it. Try Sidux, it is Debian Sid's repo's, but it's own installer with a script (dufixesh2 i think) to install non free things, graphics drivers, and much more. You should check it out. It does use KDE, though you could use Xfce or some other WM (no gnome, as they do not make usable packages for Debian's unstable repo's). Sidux is more "non-free" friendly than Ubuntu IMHO. Also, apt can be installed to use RPM packages too, so Fedora or any other ROM distro could easily use apt to be more familiar. Apt isn't even that great... cannonical is actively trying to replace it by funding development for the SMART package manager. Finally, no one is trying to get rid of you. We are trying to point you towards a distro that will fulfill your needs, because from the sounds of it Ubuntu does not (and does not for many people, I only use it for my server and also have a desktop install on a small partition to help people here on the forum. I use SAM and Fedora as my primary OS's).

[Mateo]

Debian Sid is not Debian like you know it. Try Sidux, it is Debian Sid's repo's, but it's own installer with a script (dufixesh2 i think) to install non free things, graphics drivers, and much more. You should check it out. It does use KDE, though you could use Xfce or some other WM (no gnome, as they do not make usable packages for Debian's unstable repo's). Sidux is more "non-free" friendly than Ubuntu IMHO. Also, apt can be installed to use RPM packages too, so Fedora or any other ROM distro could easily use apt to be more familiar. Apt isn't even that great... cannonical is actively trying to replace it by funding development for the SMART package manager. Finally, no one is trying to get rid of you. We are trying to point you towards a distro that will fulfill your needs, because from the sounds of it Ubuntu does not (and does not for many people, I only use it for my server and also have a desktop install on a small partition to help people here on the forum. I use SAM and Fedora as my primary OS's).

Won't work, has to be apt, deb, and gnome. I already used fedora before this and it (yum) was a nightmare.

[prizrak]

I didn't start the thread. I'm just replying to it. People "whine" about Windows all the time and you nor anyone else ever tells them to stop. So please stop threatening me. I have broken no rules. You can not single me out because you disagree. That is not fair.

If I may chime in, I actually started a thread against Windows with a fairly inflammatory title (though content was pretty level headed) and it got renamed to something alot more neutral. It has as much to do with tone as it does with content, your tone is quite unfriendly. Your content is understandable and I do respect your opinion while disagreeing with it.

[Fylk]

Ok, so people have to deal with a little trouble with an update. Some things may need to be reset. I swear, you people have gotten complacent! Try going back to windows and deal with things for a little while.

Sometimes, just sometimes, when you update something, you have to re-input your personal data. This could be for a lot of different reasons, many tims in your favor.