Here's an idea - YOU make it more like Windows!

[aysiu]

Lately, I've seen a smattering of threads suggesting Ubuntu be more like Windows (setup.exe files, Windows-looking themes, etc.).

While I think Ubuntu could learn some things from Windows (a restore point has been suggested a few times, and it's not a bad idea; bullet-proof-x was supposed to be implemented in Feisty but probably won't be fully bulletproof until Gutsy), Ubuntu has never from its outset been a Windows clone. In fact, Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu's founder and, currently at least, its primary funder) has stated publicly that he does not want people thinking of Ubuntu as some cheap Windows alternative. Ubuntu, like Mac OS X, is an operating system in its own right, with its own strengths and weaknesses, but it is different from Windows.

Ubuntu being different doesn't excuse its shortcomings, but it doesn't mean the solution to every problem is "make it more like Windows." If you actually follow the development of Ubuntu (from Warty to Hoary to Breezy to Dapper to Edgy to Feisty), you'll see the focus has always been on making things easier for the end user, not the developer. It's a slow process, but it is the direction Ubuntu is heading. If you want to help Ubuntu improve, contribute in one of these ways:
* Donate money
* Contribute code
* Write documentation
* Create artwork
* File bug reports
* Write up specs/blueprints for the upcoming release
* Help new users solve their problems

But if you're feeling the itch to really have a Windows-clone distro... make one. Seriously. I think there are enough people here who feel a Windows-clone Linux distro would be a benefit to a group of people that they should invest some of that time and energy into making one. You can even (thanks to the beauty of open source) base it off Ubuntu. You don't have to start from scratch.

Or you can help contribute to these existing projects:
http://www.linux-xp.com/
http://www.linspire.com/
http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

If you want to keep banging your head against the wall, by all means, keep proposing Ubuntu try to be a free version of Windows. If you want to get something done, do it yourself. There are probably enough of you to coordinate some kind of effort.

I wish you the best of luck!

[PatrickMay16]

Yeah definitely. I myself should contribute more, too. I'll do my best to help people on the forums from now on.

[tgm4883]

Well said

[ticopelp]

Agreed. The whole point of the "make Ubuntu like Windows" threads escapes me anyway. Certainly Ubuntu will benefit from more popularity, but I don't think aping another operating system is really the key to success, especially since so many people come to Ubuntu because they're frustrated with their user experiences elsewhere?

But that's the great thing about open source, there are a lot of ambitious projects out there looking for talented people.

[karellen]

I think this concludes 2-3 or three threads I've saw that finished not in a very constructive way, to say the least...:)
"if it's so important to you, try to make a difference"...

[Old Pink]

But if you're feeling the itch to really have a Windows-clone distro... make one. Seriously. I think there are enough people here who feel a Windows-clone Linux distro would be a benefit to a group of people that they should invest some of that time and energy into making one. You can even (thanks to the beauty of open source) base it off Ubuntu. You don't have to start from scratch.


http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/mini/redmondxp.jpg (http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/full/redmondxp.jpg)http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/mini/redmond98.gif (http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/full/redmond98.png)
Click to Enlarge

These are simple themes that work in Ubuntu.

Head to http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/ and find a download.

Personally, I hate the look, feel, thought, ways, creator, aims of Windows.

Long live Ubuntu. Good thread, should stop some winging, will be linking here if anyone brings it up. :D

[rai4shu2]

React is nice, but it barely works in VM. It desperately needs help in the kernel department.

[compmodder26]

Couldn't agree more.

[prizrak]

http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/mini/redmondxp.jpg (http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/full/redmondxp.jpg)http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/mini/redmond98.gif (http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/screenshots/full/redmond98.png)
Click to Enlarge

These are simple themes that work in Ubuntu.

Head to http://fvwm-themes.sourceforge.net/ and find a download.

Personally, I hate the look, feel, thought, ways, creator, aims of Windows.

Long live Ubuntu. Good thread, should stop some winging, will be linking here if anyone brings it up. :D

It's not really about the appearance Ubuntu doesn't really look all that dissimilar.

[Adamant1988]

Part of the 'make it like Windows' arguments you're talking about aren't really 'make it like Windows' arguments at all, aysiu. There are certain things that are just logical, or at least seem that way. I agree on the point that Linux distros should obstain from looking anything like Windows, but when it comes to package management well..

1 package == a program.

That is how it SHOULD be, no matter what you're using. These packages should have their dependencies met (or at least the uncommon ones) automatically. Perhaps if there were a way to make a '.deb group package' format and teach the system how to read these. Maybe call it .uai (Ubuntu App Installer ;) ).

If you find a way to download and group all of the dependencies that a file needs, and put them together, and have the package only install dependencies that are needed (because this would go right through package manager anyway) this would give a distinct .exe style effect (one throat to choke for a single program) while maintaining the lean-ness of Ubuntu...

Either way, there are certain things that Windows DOES do better:
GUI config tools
1 package for 1 program
platform

[arbulus]

Thanks aysiu, this is a great thread.

I'm happy that Ubuntu isn't trying to be Windows. It's a great OS that has a chance to stand against the big guys and really hold it's own. But the great thing about Ubuntu, and Linux in general, is it's customizability. If someone left windows because they wanted something that functioned differently, but missed the UI, there are so many ways that you can theme and customize your environment to visually resemble Windows. Same thing goes for Mac users. But for anyone, your visual space in your UI is really your own to make it as you like. I think Ubuntu's defaut theme is nice and pleasing, but I don't ever keep it that theme. No one says anyone has to keep the default theme. I change my backgrounds, panel setups, launchers, icons, etc. One can make it anything they want, and that's what the great thing about it is that you can't get with any commercial OS.

[aysiu]

If you find a way to download and group all of the dependencies that a file needs, and put them together, and have the package only install dependencies that are needed (because this would go right through package manager anyway) this would give a distinct .exe style effect (one throat to choke for a single program) while maintaining the lean-ness of Ubuntu... I'm all for that, actually, especially for those without an internet connection.

[tbroderick]

Maybe people should learn how to respond to threads that criticize Ubuntu and/or how to respond to threads that suggest features or admire features from Windows.

[aysiu]

Maybe people should learn how to respond to threads that criticize Ubuntu and/or how to respond to threads that suggest features or admire features from Windows.
By agreeing? Any criticism is valid criticism, no matter how uninformed it is or how unconstructive it is?

Nope. Sorry.

People who want to improve Ubuntu work on improving it through constructive and practical means. I've already laid out those means in the first post.

If people choose to ignore that, they can, as I said before, keep banging their heads against a wall.

[use a name]

If you find a way to download and group all of the dependencies that a file needs, and put them together, and have the package only install dependencies that are needed (because this would go right through package manager anyway) this would give a distinct .exe style effect (one throat to choke for a single program) while maintaining the lean-ness of Ubuntu...

Absolutely, but wouldn't that be packaging a whole system, including kernel and DE+WM? There must be a limit somewhere, but where? I think a lot of problems with this would be solved if programmers would not go for the latest and greatest of libraries all the time, but that would set back development quite a bit.

Dilemma, dilemma. Any ideas?

[Adamant1988]

Absolutely, but wouldn't that be packaging a whole system, including kernel and DE+WM? There must be a limit somewhere, but where? I think a lot of problems with this would be solved if programmers would not go for the latest and greatest of libraries all the time, but that would set back development quite a bit.

Dilemma, dilemma. Any ideas?

Oh, no, absolutely not. I would think that only direct dependencies would matter, it's impossible to start predicting the dependencies of dependencies...

[tbroderick]

By agreeing?

Never said that.


Any criticism is valid criticism, no matter how uninformed it is or how unconstructive it is?

Never said that either.


People who want to improve Ubuntu work on improving it through constructive and practical means. I've already laid out those means in the first post.

I think your first post is crap. People are not going to do those things. Particularly people who are new to Linux/Ubuntu..


If people choose to ignore that, they can, as I said before, keep banging their heads against a wall.

People should.

[prizrak]

Absolutely, but wouldn't that be packaging a whole system, including kernel and DE+WM? There must be a limit somewhere, but where? I think a lot of problems with this would be solved if programmers would not go for the latest and greatest of libraries all the time, but that would set back development quite a bit.

Dilemma, dilemma. Any ideas?
Dynamic linking perhaps? I dunno it's a complex issue not likely to be resolved.

[prizrak]

I think your first post is crap. People are not going to do those things. Particularly people who are new to Linux/Ubuntu..
No one has a gun to their head, there is no vendor lock in Linux.

[starcraft.man]

*gives aysiu's avatar a nice bright orange Ubuntu ribbon for taking time to write all that and also for being a patient but frustrated moderator, remembers when he was a forum moderator on other site...*

Thanks for posting that, I was getting tired of all those "Ubuntu needs a better IM client... like windows" or such. Kept posting something along those lines but people didn't seem to read/listen >.>

I am trying to learn coding, and till I get full swing in that I try my best (with what limited knowledge I have) to help folks get started, I have been trying my best to be around a lot :)

[tbroderick]

No one has a gun to their head, there is no vendor lock in Linux.

What do you mean? I shouldn't use Ubuntu because I criticized aysiu's post?

[saulgoode]

Oh, no, absolutely not. I would think that only direct dependencies would matter, it's impossible to start predicting the dependencies of dependencies...

So the package for your program would include a Cairo dependency but not the Pango library upon which Cairo's dependent? Or the GTK+ library upon which Pango is dependent? Or Glib upon which GTK+ is dependent? If those other libraries are not included in your program's package, how have you assured that dependencies are met?

[macogw]

Restore point is one of the SoC things, isn't it? I think they were going to try to do versioning control on home drives or something. I still prefer my separate file server with CVS & dynDNS plan though, just because if my hard drive fails, it's unlikely that that one will at the same time.

I like Adam's idea with the bundled libraries that go through apt if necessary, but otherwise don't. There's also having gdebi/apt work together so that if you double click a deb and gdebi-install it, it'll download install the dependencies with apt first instead of popping up "but first you need ___ library."

One page I'd like to see taken from Windows' book is the device manager . On Windows you can pick the item and double click and download/install drivers (not that it ever actually works, but theoretically), and having that would be nice. The restricted drivers manager is a step in the right direction, but not quite it. It'd be nice if the device manager also told you the name of the driver that device uses (for instance, if you have ATI you might not know if you're using radeon or fglrx).

If I wanted to use Windows, I would. If I wanted to use Mac OSX, I would. I don't want to use either. I like Ubuntu (even if I don't use the default layout, it still looks distinctly different from either of the other two) mostly the way it is.

[reyfer]

I think your first post is crap. People are not going to do those things. Particularly people who are new to Linux/Ubuntu..

I'm sorry, but as I said on another thread, who the hell do you think you are to say what people will do or not? Are you the people? I know A LOT of people new to Linux that are doing exactly what aysiu's post suggest. So these are not "people" as they are contrary to what YOU feel? You consider people only those who think the way you do? And what is with the idea that new user = ignorant?

And now I ask you, please, since you apparently are so superior, explain us mere mortals why do you think aysiu's post is crap? Or you don't have any valid reason?

[macogw]

I think your first post is crap. People are not going to do those things. Particularly people who are new to Linux/Ubuntu..

It's open source. Here's how it works. You don't like it? You change it. That's the great part about open source. If you can't change it, try to get a friend to do it or "commission" it (ie. pay someone to do *exactly* what you want). That's how it's always worked. That's probably how it will keep working.

As to whether they can or cannot, what makes you think every Linux newb is computer illiterate? I've been using it for less than a year, but I've been programming for 3 years. Lots of people develop on Windows before trying Linux.

Outside of programming, anyone can make a theme in the GIMP and put it on gnome-look.org or kde-look.org. Anyone can edit the ubuntu wiki and say "this didn't work for me, but here's how I fixed it" to improve documentation. Anyone can make the next Ubuntu release's wallpaper. Anyone can make a big pile of wallpapers and convince someone from MOTU to package them into a deb that would put all of the wallpaper on in one shot. Anyone can make a full theme (wallpaper/icons/borders) that can be packaged up by MOTU and installed (look at Blubuntu or the peace theme). None of that requires programming. It requires either being able to form a sentence (not necessarily English since you can be a translator) or being able to use the GIMP.

[tbroderick]

I'm sorry, but as I said on another thread, who the hell do you think you are to say what people will do or not?

Just an educated guess.


Are you the people? I know A LOT of people new to Linux that are doing exactly what aysiu's post suggest. So these are not "people" as they are contrary to what YOU feel?


Then why the need for aysiu's post if a lot of new people are doing exactly what he said.


You consider people only those who think the way you do? And what is with the idea that new user = ignorant?

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said new users are ignorant.

[reyfer]

Just an educated guess.


Okay, here's an educated guess: you have absolutely no arguments to support your statement that aysiu's post was crap. Please prove me wrong.

[prizrak]

What do you mean? I shouldn't use Ubuntu because I criticized aysiu's post?

I mean that if the users that you have mentioned don't like the way Ubuntu works and are unwilling to do anything to help they can go elsewhere no one is MAKING them use Ubuntu. I find that Ubuntu is not perfect, I do what I can to help (bug reporting mostly), however I believe it to be a great distro and like it overall so I keep using it.

My media keys didn't work I didn't whine about it, I created a bug report. Ditto for Bluetooth.

P.S. Now both work though they require a 3rd party driver hopefully it will get into the kernel for Gutsy though.

[starcraft.man]

I'm sorry, but as I said on another thread, who the hell do you think you are to say what people will do or not? Are you the people? I know A LOT of people new to Linux that are doing exactly what aysiu's post suggest. So these are not "people" as they are contrary to what YOU feel? You consider people only those who think the way you do? And what is with the idea that new user = ignorant?

And now I ask you, please, since you apparently are so superior, explain us mere mortals why do you think aysiu's post is crap? Or you don't have any valid reason?

*Raises hand* I agree and I can also say I am brand new, well somewhat (month and a half is new, after 15 years of straight up windows) and I like to help other people :D


Just an educated guess.

And educated guesses, just like voting/survey polls are VERY often wrong. So, better to be based on a fact than a guess, people guessed that the earth was flat way back when just cuz they were afraid of the horizon... :p




Then why the need for aysiu's post if a lot of new people are doing exactly what he said.


The post was made for all those people who find that Ubuntu doesn't do everything exactly like Windows and feel compelled to go in the cafe/beginner forum and make a thread saying how X application / function needs to be better LIKE windows. These threads serve no purpose, why? Because developers don't troll these forums day and night and go "Oh, look... these folks are missing X, we will code it for them!!!". So, what does it do in the end, lead to arguments that are not productive and distract from helping other genuine problems with installation/set up.

In all honesty, if people have any problem with X they should do what Aysiu says and stop with the pointless posts that lead to nothing... "actions speak louder than words" its not just a cliche :)

[tbroderick]

It's open source. Here's how it works. You don't like it? You change it. That's the great part about open source. If you can't change it, try to get a friend to do it or "commission" it (ie. pay someone to do *exactly* what you want). That's how it's always worked. That's probably how it will keep working.

Thanks, I was wondering how open source works.


As to whether they can or cannot, what makes you think every Linux newb is computer illiterate?

Never said new users were computer illiterate. Never used the word illiterate that's your word.


I've been using it for less than a year, but I've been programming for 3 years. Lots of people develop on Windows before trying Linux.

Awesome. Do you expect ever person who has a criticism of Ubuntu to know how to program? I don't.


Outside of programming, anyone can make a theme in the GIMP and put it on gnome-look.org or kde-look.org.

Theming is one small aspect. Chances are there is already a theme that matches what they want.


Anyone can edit the ubuntu wiki and say "this didn't work for me, but here's how I fixed it" to improve documentation.

I guess, but most new users probably ask for help to fix things rather then come up with solutions themselves.


Anyone can make the next Ubuntu release's wallpaper. Anyone can make a big pile of wallpapers and convince someone from MOTU to package them into a deb that would put all of the wallpaper on in one shot. Anyone can make a full theme (wallpaper/icons/borders) that can be packaged up by MOTU and installed (look at Blubuntu or the peace theme). None of that requires programming. It requires either being able to form a sentence (not necessarily English since you can be a translator) or being able to use the GIMP.

That's only one part of aysiu's post, "Create artwork". They can do that if they can use GIMP/Inkscape/Krita/etc. They can also donate moneys if they have it, but I think it is asking too much of them if you want them to contribute code, write documentation, file bug reports, write up specs for new release, or help new users with their problems. There are people who are just end users, who don't want or have the time to do all/any of those things, but also have criticisms. I don't think they should be dismissed because they can't do all the things aysiu listed.

[tbroderick]

Please prove me wrong.

So you expect all new users to be able to do all the things aysiu listed;

Donate money (they can if they have it)

Contribute code (requires some knowledge of a programming language, a little too much to ask new users to do)

Write documentation (new users can, but they have to understand what they are writing about and how to answers questions/problems from other users, again I feel it is a little too much to ask a new user)

Create artwork (they can do this once they know any of the related programs)

File bug reports (maybe, new users still need to know how to file bug reports that are useful to developers, maybe a little too much)

Write up specs/blueprints for the upcoming release (too much for new users)

Help new users solve their problems (too much for new users, but they could handle certain problems)

[karellen]

So you expect all new users to be able to do all the things aysiu listed;

Donate money (they can if they have it)

Contribute code (requires some knowledge of a programming language, a little too much to ask new users to do)

Write documentation (new users can, but they have to understand what they are writing about and how to answers questions/problems from other users, again I feel it is a little too much to ask a new user)

Create artwork (they can do this once they know any of the related programs)

File bug reports (maybe, new users still need to know how to file bug reports that are useful to developers, maybe a little too much)

Write up specs/blueprints for the upcoming release (too much for new users)

Help new users solve their problems (too much for new users, but they could handle certain problems)

everyone could contribute a little if he wants a new feature/artwork etc. but not just demanding and being narrow-minded...
it's open source community and a free os, let's not forget this
:)

[ticopelp]

Why do all these threads always end up with someone going on about some invisible majority of theoretical users who will or won't do something?

[koenn]

There are people who are just end users, who don't want or have the time to do all/any of those things, but also have criticisms. I don't think they should be dismissed because they can't do all the things aysiu listed.
The answer to that would be sometyhing along these lines :

Any criticism is valid criticism, no matter how uninformed it is or how unconstructive it is? Nope. Sorry.

Have you actualle seen some of those "make it like windows" threads. There was 1 going on for 10 or more pages about how Linux would instantly dominate the desktop if Ubuntu would adopt a Windows XP look-and-feel but all these linux geeks are just too dumb to realize it.

So, someone who's been using Linux for , say, 10 days, hasn't adjusted to the superficial differences yet and didn't (yet ?) manage to figuer out how to apply a theme or change a desktop background, is going to point out where exactly 15 years of development went wrong ?

On a slightly different level : most open source developers are open to criticism - from their peers. It's possibly also the reason the write open source : to get peer reviews, and probably also to impress their peers. That you and I get a free and gratis operating system and lots of software is, imo, a pleasant side effect. So If I don't like the looks, I'll learn how to change them. End of story.

[jerrylamos]

The whole idea of Linux Ubuntu was to be able to make it like you preferred, not like the "take it my way or leave it" Microsoft policy.

I'm into the applications so I want as little on the screen getting in the way as possible. The more lines the better for internet,word processing, digital picture display & cropping,

By no means do I think Microsoft has the magic solution. It just has one many people are used to - but I've heard experts complain about Vista compared to XP. Tough luck, theirs.

Now I'm able to get my functions done with the least keystrokes on Ubuntu Gnome, but I do run Kubuntu KDE and Xubuntu XFCE for testing, and I'm always dabbling in competitive Linux's which have a lot of different appearances and feel. So far the KDE variants take more keystrokes than Gnome Ubuntu for me. Just try changing screen resolution on various KDE's for example.

Cheers, Jerry

[starcraft.man]

So you expect all new users to be able to do all the things aysiu listed;

Donate money (they can if they have it)

Contribute code (requires some knowledge of a programming language, a little too much to ask new users to do)

Write documentation (new users can, but they have to understand what they are writing about and how to answers questions/problems from other users, again I feel it is a little too much to ask a new user)

Create artwork (they can do this once they know any of the related programs)

File bug reports (maybe, new users still need to know how to file bug reports that are useful to developers, maybe a little too much)

Write up specs/blueprints for the upcoming release (too much for new users)

Help new users solve their problems (too much for new users, but they could handle certain problems)

No, I believe the spirit of what Aysiu was trying to get at is he is tired of reading posts from people who make no contribution to code, who try Ubuntu for 1 day and say "X Y Z programs are bad and I can get better on windows, fix it or I'm going" (I'm seen those quite a bit and I only been here for just over a month and a half active). These posts are inflammatory, they don't offer any suggestions that aren't know (for instance, video conferencing missing from gaim, put it in) and they have no consideration for the coders who have VOLUNTEERED their time and effort to code the program to work as it does.

I do think you are very wrong about generalizing about new users. What do you know about them, or me for that matter? Hmmm? I happen to have 15 years of SOLID windows experience, I know quite a bit of networking and other fields not OS dependant, and I uptook the basics in a day or two and the moderately advanced parts of Ubuntu in 1-2 weeks flat. Not to mention I have a significant background in PS now learning my way in GIMP. So I do my best and help around here a lot while I relearn GIMP and start to learn coding, and I have been helping many people (at least I hope I did).

Are you going to say I am the anomaly? What prior experience with people gives you the knowledge to know what is the norm? Are you a psychologist? Do you take polls of populations? How many people have you known in your life, 300? Is that your representative cross section of the "norm"... if so I can find an equally representative 300 who contradict yours on ever point, and mine would be a random sample. I mean heck, most people I know still think super geek when they hear Linux, they think you need to be a super techy, so maybe we should be assuming that more technologically advanced people are coming to Ubuntu... and that the less savvy are the minority.

Aysiu was merely saying rather than pick at every feature that is lacking in Ubuntu and being inflamattory, go thru the proper channels. Like for instance, go to the developer section for Gutsy, post there with a thoughtful suggestion if its not already there. Or if ts a third party app go to the developpers forum and suggest there. Or if they don't want to do it, do it yourself. But stop whining in the cafe/beginner section about things ubuntu does bad, people have already noticed it ahead of you (there are billions of people and only so many applications/problems).

Thats about all I think needs to be said I think. Please don't make generalizations about people you don't know, including me.

[karellen]

I'm on your side, starcraft.man :)

[use a name]

Oh, no, absolutely not. I would think that only direct dependencies would matter, it's impossible to start predicting the dependencies of dependencies...
I've almost 'broken' my system that way once. I downloaded some .deb of a library from somewhere, not in the repos. It was a bit newer than the one in the repos. I tried to install it, but it depended on a whole lot more libraries. I didn't want to end up updating, well, maybe the whole system, so I decided I did not need the program that bad and tried to remove the library.

Problem. I was using apt-get and synaptic, did not think about aptitude. apt-get and synaptic would not let me downgrade easily (or not at all, don't remember). In fact, as the package was now broken, apt-get adviced to remove the package and with that the whole DE. Finally, aptitude told me that the package should be downgraded... Oh well, aptitude solved the problem, but this may cause real bad problems.

[tbroderick]

The answer to that would be sometyhing along these lines :

I never said that, I don't know where asyiu caught that from. All I said was people here needed to handle criticism better.



So, someone who's been using Linux for , say, 10 days, hasn't adjusted to the superficial differences yet and didn't (yet ?) manage to figuer out how to apply a theme or change a desktop background, is going to point out where exactly 15 years of development went wrong ?

Like I said, one can expect a new user to change a theme. That is not asking too much of them.


On a slightly different level : most open source developers are open to criticism - from their peers.

Agreed. Most developers I have talked to are very much open to improving their programs as long as the improvement doesn't do anything too drastic. The problem isn't the developers.

[justin whitaker]

Part of the 'make it like Windows' arguments you're talking about aren't really 'make it like Windows' arguments at all, aysiu. There are certain things that are just logical, or at least seem that way. I agree on the point that Linux distros should obstain from looking anything like Windows, but when it comes to package management well..

1 package == a program.

That is how it SHOULD be, no matter what you're using. These packages should have their dependencies met (or at least the uncommon ones) automatically. Perhaps if there were a way to make a '.deb group package' format and teach the system how to read these. Maybe call it .uai (Ubuntu App Installer ;) ).

If you find a way to download and group all of the dependencies that a file needs, and put them together, and have the package only install dependencies that are needed (because this would go right through package manager anyway) this would give a distinct .exe style effect (one throat to choke for a single program) while maintaining the lean-ness of Ubuntu...

Either way, there are certain things that Windows DOES do better:
GUI config tools
1 package for 1 program
platform

I'm going to stay above the sniping, and point out a couple of 1 program/package efforts that are open soruce:

PBI! (http://www.pcbsd.org/?p=learnpbi)

No linux distribution has done anything with it yet, and its works well on PC-BSD. Even Nvidia drivers work using that install method.

Pros:

1. Self contained applications which install with no more clicks than a windows application.
2. Easy to remove as well.
3. Can even work with large files, like games, or emulated Windows programs, like Dreamweaver.

Cons:

1. Right now, only on PC-BSD, although there is not lock on it license wise AFAIK.
2. The user has to decide if they want to use PBIs, or Ports. Mixing the two can be problematic (sorta like CNR).
3. Tend to be a PITA to create for a new user.

Klik! (http://klik.atekon.de/)

Klik pulls the application code out of a preferred repository, combines it with the necessary dependencies, and installs it in it's own folder. It has been used on Kanotix, Knoppix, and a few others.

Pros:

1. Literally one click. You click on the site, it downloads and installs it.
2. Self contained means upgrading is as simple as deleting a folder.
3. Large variety of applications.

Cons:
1. The computer must be cram-FS enabled.
2. Klik needs KDE Base at the very least.
3. Requires internet connection.
4. Some of the applications are dated.

There are other options as well, like zero install.

[reclusivemonkey]

Firstly, THANK GOODNESS! Another thing which needed to be said. Ubuntu owes you all exactly nothing; if you don't like it, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Something real, other than simply moaning that it doesn't work how you want it to. Use another distro, or another OS. If there isn't an OS that works like you want, sell you computer and go do something else instead.


The whole idea of Linux Ubuntu was to be able to make it like you preferred, not like the "take it my way or leave it" Microsoft policy.

Wrong. Ubuntu's purpose is to be "Linux for Human Beings". The human beings are a silent majority (there is catagoric proof of this on the first page of the forums - Currently Active Users: 5413 (947 members and 4466 guests)), so no one posting any of these "make it more like windows" threads speaks for all human beings. As long as Ubuntu continues to grow, it *is* being Linux for Human Beings.

[starcraft.man]

I'm on your side, starcraft.man :)

Thanks, I don't try to be on a side though... I just try to be me, and my policy is always to be nice and logical in my responses to such uninformed posts. Anger/flaming usually just leaves people with such rather baseless opinions feeling justified/confirmed.

Make sure to have a nice day yourself Karellen :)

[karellen]

Thanks, I don't try to be on a side though... I just try to be me, and my policy is always to be nice and logical in my responses to such uninformed posts. Anger/flaming usually just leaves people with such rather baseless opinions feeling justified/confirmed.

Make sure to have a nice day yourself Karellen :)

I know how it feels :). I hate extremism and hard words, especially when you don't even know the person you are "talking"(writing)
have a nice day yourself too, here it's midnight and another day has just begun :)

[tbroderick]

No, I believe the spirit of what Aysiu was trying to get at is he is tired of reading posts from people who make no contribution to code

There is no rule saying you can't criticize Linux if you don't contribute code.


who try Ubuntu for 1 day and say "X Y Z programs are bad and I can get better on windows, fix it or I'm going" (I'm seen those quite a bit and I only been here for just over a month and a half active).

People are always going to compare Linux programs to Windows programs. It's how you deal with the criticism.


These posts are inflammatory, they don't offer any suggestions that aren't know (for instance, video conferencing missing from gaim, put it in) and they have no consideration for the coders who have VOLUNTEERED their time and effort to code the program to work as it does.

Then tell the user it's a known problem and the developers are working on it, tell them the developers have no plan to add feature x, or tell them how to contact the delevopers. Don't flame them by calling them stupid, Linux isn't Winblows, learn to program, if you don't like it leave, etc..


I do think you are very wrong about generalizing about new users. What do you know about them, or me for that matter? Hmmm?

Well, at one point I was a new user.


I happen to have 15 years of SOLID windows experience, I know quite a bit of networking and other fields not OS dependant, and I uptook the basics in a day or two and the moderately advanced parts of Ubuntu in 1-2 weeks flat.

After a couple days you were developing Linux programs or rolling your own distro? Do you think all new users have the same experience as you?


Not to mention I have a significant background in PS now learning my way in GIMP. So I do my best and help around here a lot while I relearn GIMP and start to learn coding, and I have been helping many people (at least I hope I did).

Did you contribute code to GIMP?


Are you going to say I am the anomaly?

Yes,


What prior experience with people gives you the knowledge to know what is the norm?

So are we just stuck on this point?


Are you a psychologist?

No.


Do you take polls of populations?

I did work for the US census once.


How many people have you known in your life, 300?

More then 300.


Is that your representative cross section of the "norm"... if so I can find an equally representative 300 who contradict yours on ever point, and mine would be a random sample.

OK.


I mean heck, most people I know still think super geek when they hear Linux

Yes.


they think you need to be a super techy, so maybe we should be assuming that more technologically advanced people are coming to Ubuntu... and that the less savvy are the minority.

No.


Aysiu was merely saying rather than pick at every feature that is lacking in Ubuntu and being inflamattory, go thru the proper channels.

I think aysiu did a poor job.


Like for instance, go to the developer section for Gutsy, post there with a thoughtful suggestion if its not already there.

Aysiu did not say that. That I would have no problem with.



Or if ts a third party app go to the developpers forum and suggest there.

He didn't say that either. Again that is a good suggestion. Explaining to new users how to make feature requests and/or how to contact developers.


Or if they don't want to do it, do it yourself.

Now, that is what I think is asking a little too much or new users.


Please don't make generalizations about people you don't know, including me.

Sorry for making a generalization that new users aren't going to contribute code. My bad.

[Tomosaur]

As much as I respect Aysiu - I really can't understand the purpose of this thread. It's not constructive by any means - and after a day or two, it will disappear into the depths of the forums. So really, this thread just seems like a rant - something which:

a) is not helpful
b) is pretty much everything the forums are against

Now, I'm by no means a saint - I have a few infractions against my name because I sometimes 'colour my language' (to put it one way :P). However, surely anyone can see that telling new users to 'fix it themselves' is NOT the way to give support, which is what this forum is about, basically. Yes, this is the 'general' area - but even still, people are going to read it and think 'Oh, those Linux geeks are at it again'.

In short - if we want people to use Ubuntu, we can't afford to just point people elsewhere. That's completely the opposite of building a community.

Yes, you can say 'but this is what open-source is about!', but at the same time - be realistic. Those who are capable of contributing may well do after some time - certainly not as soon as they start using Ubuntu. The vast, vast majority of people, however, just want it to work, and probably aren't going to contribute at all in terms of coding / donations etc etc. Regardless of whether we like that or not, if we want Ubuntu to be successful, then we have to pretty much appease whatever it is the user wants / needs.

In terms of 'making Ubuntu like Windows' - then no, I don't want that - and I agree that if someone DOES want it, then they should probably do it themselves - but not because it's open-source, but because I believe making Ubuntu look like Windows would be harmful to Ubuntu's success. That should be the message people send out, not 'do it yourself'.

[lepz]

If people really miss the look of windows there could always join Linspire, it looks just like windows and the really great thing is "You Pay For It" just like windows..
Now how cool is that? :lolflag:

[tgm4883]

So if they aren't going to post suggestions for gutsy, and they aren't going to post suggestions to the third party developer, and they aren't going to contribute code, what are they going to do?

[koenn]

I really can't understand the purpose of this thread. ...

It's in the first post :

Lately, I've seen a smattering of threads suggesting Ubuntu be more like Windows (setup.exe files, Windows-looking themes, etc.).

So it deals with threatds about "make ubuntu more like windows", explains why this is NOT going to happen, suggests 7 ways of constructive contributions (as opposed to endless whining), and finaly, for those who insist that "more like windows" is the only way, suggests to 'do it yourself'.

Now, I also don't think just any new user is capable of rolling his own distro just to suit his need for some MS Windows look-and-feel on a Linyx system. I also don't think that same user is capable of making an informed decision on wether or not Ubuntu should look/behave like Windows.

So, to sum it up, this thread is to tell all the "make it more like Windows because that's what I'm familiar with" whiners that it's not going to happen.

[Tomosaur]

It's in the first post :


So it deals with threatds about "make ubuntu more like windows", explains why this is NOT going to happen, suggests 7 ways of constructive contributions (as opposed to endless whining), and finaly, for those who insist that "more like windows" is the only way, suggests to 'do it yourself'.

Now, I also don't think just any new user is capable of rolling his own distro just to suit his need for some MS Windows look-and-feel on a Linyx system. I also don't think that same user is capable of making an informed decision on wether or not Ubuntu should look/behave like Windows.

So, to sum it up, this thread is to tell all the "make it more like Windows because that's what I'm familiar with" whiners that it's not going to happen.

That's not the PURPOSE for the thread, that is the REASON for it. Telling people where to go (quite literally!) is not the way to build a community or improve the adoption of Ubuntu. I can understand entirely the desire to tell people to do it themselves, I just don't think this is the right way to do it. This thread will soon be lost a few pages deeper into the forum - meaning that the people it is aimed at won't read it. Therefore - the only purpose this thread serves is to rant, which is not helpful. It would be much more helpful to tell each individual user the reason why it's not going to happen, and to tell them how they CAN do it themselves. Yes, it's not ideal, and we'll be doing it forever, but at least that way the information will actually be constructive.

That, or aysiu can sticky the thread and we can all link to it when yet another whiner comes along.

[koenn]

That's not the PURPOSE for the thread, that is the REASON for it.
oy, semantics. Guess you'll have to explain to me the difference between purpose and reason.


Telling people where to go (quite literally!) is not the way to build a community or improve the adoption of Ubuntu.
I think Ubuntu is also doing just fine, adoption-wise, without rants on how it should be like Windows.



I can understand entirely the desire to tell people to do it themselves, I just don't think this is the right way to do it. This thread will soon be lost a few pages deeper into the forum - meaning that the people it is aimed at won't read it. Therefore - the only purpose this thread serves is to rant, which is not helpful. It would be much more helpful to tell each individual user the reason why it's not going to happen, and to tell them how they CAN do it themselves. Yes, it's not ideal, and we'll be doing it forever, but at least that way the information will actually be constructive.

That, or aysiu can sticky the thread and we can all link to it when yet another whiner comes along.
rants also serve a purpose. They would have become extinct if they didn't.
Anyway; I see your point,
I suggest this is made sticky so we can refer to it whenever there's yet another "make it like windows" thread.

Then again, I just noticed this thread got referenced in the (sticky) Criticism FAQ - good enough for me.

[Tomosaur]

oy, semantics. Guess you'll have to explain to me the difference between purpose and reason.


The reason for something's existence is the series of events which led to it existing (in this case, a series of threads about making Ubuntu look like Windows). The purpose of something is what it hopes to achieve (which is debatable in this case).



Then again, I just noticed this thread got referenced in the (sticky) Criticism FAQ - good enough for me.
Awesome ;)

[Foxmike]

I think aysiu did a poor job.
Then do a better job.

Your first post is crap

Just there, you make a destructive negative judgement over womeone else's work.
^
"I do not agree with your firs post for reason 1, reason 2, reason 3 so then I suggest blah blah blah..." would be a lot more easy to take as well as it would have made your ideas more clear to everybody instead of making interpret most of what you said.

Forums are a comunity in which there are basic rules to follow to get respect.

-FM

[koenn]

The reason for something's existence is the series of events which led to it existing (in this case, a series of threads about making Ubuntu look like Windows). The purpose of something is what it hopes to achieve (which is debatable in this case).

Thanks

[tbroderick]

Then do a better job.

I don't feel the need to rant.



"I do not agree with your firs post for reason 1, reason 2, reason 3 so then I suggest blah blah blah..." would be a lot more easy to take as well as it would have made your ideas more clear to everybody instead of making interpret most of what you said.

I did just that. Take time to read my other posts before criticizing me. I've stated why I felt parts of asyiu's posts are unreasonable. I will PM all of them. I don't want to take the time to restate my opinions.


Forums are a comunity in which there are basic rules to follow to get respect.


I have not insulted anybody. I said asyiu's post was crap and have given my reasons, you have chosen to ignore them. I have not insulted asyiu or anybody else with personal attacks. I disagree strongly with asyiu's post and will voice my opinion. I don't think that is disrespectful.

Edit; I can not PM you because you have PMs turned off.

[graabein]

A friend of mine has been pro windows for a long time. When you're not serious/realistic it's not worth the effort, it's just hot air... so what's your point again?

[tbroderick]

...

Is that directed towards me?

[Foxmike]

Edit; I can not PM you because you have PMs turned off.

You can as everybody, my PMs are turned on. But don't loose your time, I've read your other posts.

-FM

[tbroderick]

You can as everybody, my PMs are turned on. But don't loose your time, I've read your other posts.


I've tried but this is what I get;

"Foxmike has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her."

If you read my posts then why my your comment?



"I do not agree with your firs post for reason 1, reason 2, reason 3 so then I suggest blah blah blah..." would be a lot more easy to take as well as it would have made your ideas more clear to everybody instead of making interpret most of what you said.

I'm willing to reiterate them to you, but I don't want to re-post them in the thread. The first place to look is here;

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=2630663&postcount=31

[starcraft.man]

Then tell the user it's a known problem and the developers are working on it, tell them the developers have no plan to add feature x, or tell them how to contact the delevopers. Don't flame them by calling them stupid, Linux isn't Winblows, learn to program, if you don't like it leave, etc..


I don't flame them, I tell them exactly what I told you, go see gutsy development/3rd party forums/learn code, check my posts, you'll find its my response.

And why are you so fixated on contributing code, it seems like every reply you make leads to the word code Neither Aysiu nor I said that CODE is the only way to contribute to Ubuntu and it seems incredibly narrow minded of you to think so. There are infinite number of ways to do something that makes Ubuntu better, and neither of us listed them all. I do know though that feature requests in cafes, do nothing... Oh and no, i obviously haven't coded for GIMP since I just started using Ubuntu a month and a half ago, don't ask questions that are ridiculous... I mean I even told ya in the post I was learning to code...

Before you quote it I will put it here :


No, I believe the spirit of what Aysiu was trying to get at is he is tired of reading posts from people who make no contribution to code, who try Ubuntu for 1 day and say "X Y Z programs are bad and I can get better on windows, fix it or I'm going" (I'm seen those quite a bit and I only been here for just over a month and a half active). These posts are inflammatory, they don't offer any suggestions that aren't know (for instance, video conferencing missing from gaim, put it in) and they have no consideration for the coders who have VOLUNTEERED their time and effort to code the program to work as it does.

Don't butcher my sentences in the middle, if you clearly paid attention my point in my first line was not that people had to contribute code to have their opinions counted but that people who make no effort whatsoever to adopt Ubuntu and merely rant/list deficiencies of it before promptly quitting are doing the entire community a disservice.

Just a note unrelated:
Could you please stop quoting individual lines that I and others write, its an annoying habit that you seem to continue doing to prove people wrong while taking everything they type to be exactly literal rather than what they mean (and yes, its obvious you can't hear tone in words on a post, but you can get meaning from them by reading between the lines rather than taking everything to be literal). For example cutting up my first sentence, rather than getting my point Its irritating rather than useful discussion on a topic.

[macogw]

Never said new users were computer illiterate. Never used the word illiterate that's your word.
Awesome. Do you expect ever person who has a criticism of Ubuntu to know how to program? I don't.


Oh, so you're saying that you weren't calling new users *incapable* of changing things themselves, just too stubborn to do so? Okay, fine. If you're too stubborn to customize it yourself, you obviously don't want it to be customized enough. If you want it to be customized, you'll do it.

And this isn't about criticism *in general* because no, I don't expect them all to be able to program. I don't even expect the kids in my programming classes to be able to program (sad as that is). I do expect them to be able to form a few sentences, a paragraph maybe, and submit a bug report or put a one-line spec in Launchpad that says "Please implement something that does x, y, and z." This thread is specifically about people who say to "make it like Windows." We don't WANT it to be like Windows! If you WANT it to be Windows, USE WINDOWS! This is NOT "a free version of Windows." This is something completely different. Use whichever OS you like best. If that's Windows, don't use Linux then complain that's it's not Windows. If that's Linux, don't use Windows and complain that it's not Linux. If that's Mac OSX, don't use Windows or Linux and complain it's not a Mac. If it's BSD, don't complain that Linux isn't BSD. It's as simple as that. If you want it to be Windows so gosh-darned badly, just use Windows! Linux will NEVER be Windows, and I consider that a very very good thing. If it was, I'd stop using it. I'd switch to FreeBSD. Get it? Use what you like, but don't try to pretend Ubuntu is something it's not. It's Linux, and that is it! Do you see people going onto Windows message boards and posting that they can't stand MS Word's interface and it should be more like OpenOffice.org and should include PDF support like OOo then going to Adobe forums and complaining that Photoshop isn't enough like the GIMP? No. You know why? Because we use what works for us instead of trying to force other people to make something a different way than they like, especially people WHO ARE NOT BEING PAID.

And yes, I believe that is a perfectly reasonable suggestion. Mac users don't want people like me who complain about one-button mice and the menu bar being disattached from the windows. They'd tell me to go use something like that. Windows users would tell me to go use a Mac if I was like my mom, afraid to right-click. It's pretty simple. You use what you like, not what others say is "cool." How bandwagon can you be? Don't switch to Ubuntu because someone said it's cool. Switch because you honestly want to try something new. Switch because you like the interface better. Switch because you like the programs better. Don't just jump on a trend. Remember the terrible fashion of the 80s? That's what happens when you pay too much attention to trends. Yikes!

We all KNOW there are things that need to be fixed in Linux. There are things that need to be fixed in EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF SOFTWARE IN EXISTENCE. Write up a bug report or suggest it on Launchpad (where devs actually look because the boards have nothing to do with development at all). But we'd really appreciate it if people stopped trying to tell us that Ubuntu is bad specifically because it isn't a Windows clone.


I have not insulted anybody. I said asyiu's post was crap
How is it not insulting? It is very disrespectful to just say "your post is crap" with no real qualitative anything attached. It's a useless opinion, just like the kind of threads we're talking about "make program X on Linux be like program Y on Windows" without saying something specific like "...by implementing feature Z")

[starcraft.man]

We all KNOW there are things that need to be fixed in Linux. There are things that need to be fixed in EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF SOFTWARE IN EXISTENCE. Write up a bug report or suggest it on Launchpad (where devs actually look because the boards have nothing to do with development at all). But we'd really appreciate it if people stopped trying to tell us that Ubuntu is bad specifically because it isn't a Windows clone.

Amen. Just a thought but maybe we should make a glaring Sticky in the cafe "BEFORE you post that Ubuntu is missing X". And make a list of things said person should actually do rather than a wasteful post in the cafe, i.e. go to gutsy gibbon dev section, point to bug launchpad, point to 3rd party forums... etc...

Just something we might consider doing, and by we I mean anyone who has mod access cuz that certainly isn't me, all I got is glowing eyes and energy blades :p

Edit: That's prolly the end of my posts here, I ought to get back to helping people :)

[blackspyder]

I agree. Personally I do what i can but i'm no coder. Bug reporting is about all im good for right now. Give me a few months to get adjusted to a deb-based distro and i might be good for something else

[macogw]

I agree. Personally I do what i can but i'm no coder. Bug reporting is about all im good for right now. Give me a few months to get adjusted to a deb-based distro and i might be good for something else

Yeah, that's all I do right now. The languages I know are either useless (Visual Basic) or slow due to being in a virtual machine (Java), so I don't submit code yet. I've suggested stuff in Launchpad and commented on other suggestions to try to make Ubuntu better than it currently is. Eventually, I will submit code. Maybe this summer I'll be good enough with C to submit the modifications I want to make to GNOME. Who knows? They're always looking for people to triage bugs though. There are thousands of them that need to be diagnosed on Launchpad.

[Mateo]

Ahh, another thread where aysiu knows down a straw man. These are always fun.

[tbroderick]

I don't flame them, I tell them exactly what I told you, go see gutsy development/3rd party forums/learn code, check my posts, you'll find its my response.

I did check your posts. Maybe it wasn't clear but, I told you those (gusty forum and 3rd party forums) are good ideas, but neither were said by asyiu.


And why are you so fixated on contributing code, it seems like every reply you make leads to the word code Neither Aysiu nor I said that CODE is the only way to contribute to Ubuntu and it seems incredibly narrow minded of you to think so.

I never said code was the only way to contribute. I have said that the creating artwork and donating money are reasonable things for new users to do. Other parts of asyiu's post, contributing code, bug reports, write documentation, write up specs/blueprints for the upcoming release or create your own Windows clone are unreasonable to expect from new users.


Oh and no, i obviously haven't coded for GIMP since I just started using Ubuntu a month and a half ago, don't ask questions that are ridiculous...

That's why asking new users to contribute code is absurd. They should be pointed to the appropriate forum/mailing list.


For example cutting up my first sentence, rather than getting my point Its irritating rather than useful discussion on a topic.

Worse then people putting words in my mouth.

[tbroderick]

Oh, so you're saying that you weren't calling new users *incapable* of changing things themselves, just too stubborn to do so? Okay, fine. If you're too stubborn to customize it yourself, you obviously don't want it to be customized enough. If you want it to be customized, you'll do it.

Please stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. All I'm saying is it is a little unreasonable to ask a new user to contribute code, write documentation, file big reports, and create their own Windows clone. When you first used Linux, did you know how to do all those thing? I know I didn't. I do agree that is completely reasonable to expect a new user to be able to change his/her theme and/or create a theme with the GIMP, Krita, etc.


How is it not insulting? It is very disrespectful to just say "your post is crap" with no real qualitative anything attached. It's a useless opinion, just like the kind of threads we're talking about "make program X on Linux be like program Y on Windows" without saying something specific like "...by implementing feature Z")

I've stated my opinion multiple times.

[macogw]

Other parts of asyiu's post, contributing code, bug reports, write documentation, write up specs/blueprints for the upcoming release or create your own Windows clone are unreasonable to expect from new users.
WHAT???? HOW?

Bug reports:
1. go to launchpad.net
2. register & login (have we hit the hard part yet?)
3. click on "Ubuntu" in the lower right part of the screen
4. click the read "report a bug" button
5. type a summary ("texas instruments card reader doesn't work")
6. read the list of bugs that are already there and sound alike. if one looks like yours, read it and see if it's the same. if it is, reply to it and say "me too" then hit "subscribe" on the left to get updates about it. if there isn't one, describe what's going wrong in the box in the bottom
7. hit submit

Is that hard? No.

Write documentation:
1. Register and make a page on the Ubuntu wiki
2. Start typing. It can be "I was having trouble with X. I asked on the forums, and after a while, we figured out that to fix it you have to 1....2....3....4.... and then it'll work" and copy and paste those steps from the forums
3. Save

Is that hard? No.

Write specs:
1. go to launchpad.net
2. log in
3. click on "Ubuntu" in the lower right
4. Click on "blueprints"
5. wait for the page to load (yes this is a step because it seems to load slowly)
6. on the left, click "register new blueprint"
7. Make up a name for it
8. Type a few sentences describing what you think should happen to make Ubuntu better. If you actually have an idea for this, that won't be hard at all. It'll probably be something like "there should be a way to roll back to old versions of files, like Mac OSX has so that if something bad happens (like accidentally saving over a file) the original is recoverable." It can also be "we need an easier way to set up wireless cards that don't have Linux drivers."
9. Press "submit"

Hard? No.

I believe the create a Windows clone thing is a bit of a joke. There are some Linux Windows clones like Linspire or Linux XP and themes to make it look like Windows. You can use one of those. Or, you can use real Windows. Whatever. It doesn't hurt us if you use Windows (well...if you keep it protected...our inboxes don't like the spam that unprotected Windows boxes that get picked up by botnets produce).

[tbroderick]

Is that hard? No.

Not hard (of course it is not hard to do), but is it reasonable to expect a new Linux user to do all of these things? I don't think it is.

[macogw]

Not hard (of course it is not hard to do), but is it reasonable to expect a new Linux user to do all of these things? I don't think it is.

Well if they're gonna come here, sign up, and type up their complaints anyway, why not just complain on Launchpad where a dev can see it? We, frankly, don't care all that much if you think the OK and Cancel buttons should be on opposite sides.

[saulgoode]

Not hard (of course it is not hard to do), but is it reasonable to expect a new Linux user to do all of these things? I don't think it is.

First, Aysiu's post did not suggest that a new Linux user do all of those things, his statement was "If you want to help Ubuntu improve, contribute in one of these ways:"

Second, Aysiu's statement is a subjunctive, he is not even suggesting that a new Linux user do those things; unless they wish to help Ubuntu improve.

Third, it is unreasonable to assume that just because someone hasn't used Linux before, they are incapable of coding, documenting, or submitting bug reports.

Fourth, it is unreasonable for a new user to expect to improve on a system before he has learned that system.

[Tundro Walker]

You know, I'm sick and tired of posts like this. We don't want Ubuntu to become another Windows clone. We want it to be another Apple ][e clone!

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic.)

[tbroderick]

First, Aysiu's post did not suggest that a new Linux user do all of those things, his statement was "If you want to help Ubuntu improve, contribute in one of these ways:"

Yes, but I took it in the context of, Here's an idea - YOU make it more like Windows!, not a general post on how to improve Ubuntu. If that was his intent, a general post on how to improve Ubuntu, then I totally misread it.

Of course there are new Linux users who do know all these things, but I think it is safe to assume that the people whining about Ubuntu isn't Windows, are new users who haven't used Ubuntu/Linux before and are coming from a Windows background. If they knew all of those things you listed, coding, documenting, or submitting bug reports, they would do them and not whine.

[tbroderick]

Well if they're gonna come here, sign up, and type up their complaints anyway, why not just complain on Launchpad where a dev can see it? We, frankly, don't care all that much if you think the OK and Cancel buttons should be on opposite sides.

Do they know about Launchpad or about making feature requests? How many Windows users file bug reports, make feature requests, or write specs for future Windows releases? Not many. I think ubuntuforums users should expect a lot of whining from users who are making the switch for the first time. Ubuntu does have a reputation of being a 'newbie' distro. I know people get frustrated with the 'Ubuntu should be like Windows' threads, but you have to deal with it. I don't think aysiu's post is the right way.

I'm done with this subject. I didn't mean to insult or flame anybody. Just to add my voice which is in the clear minority.

[ticopelp]

So what do you feel is reasonable to expect of new users? Anything besides complaints? I'm just curious.

[reyfer]

Yes, but I took it in the context of, Here's an idea - YOU make it more like Windows!, not a general post on how to improve Ubuntu. If that was his intent, a general post on how to improve Ubuntu, then I totally misread it.


But when aysiu pointed out to you the intent of the post, you replied by calling his post crap, which was that started all this post about you. Don't remember? It is post #17 on this thread. Here, I will quote for you:



Quote:

People who want to improve Ubuntu work on improving it through constructive and practical means. I've already laid out those means in the first post.
I think your first post is crap. People are not going to do those things. Particularly people who are new to Linux/Ubuntu..

[saulgoode]

An excerpt from a book by David Kiersey (http://keirsey.com/Drummers.html). He is speaking of people, but perhaps it applies also to OSes.


If I do not want what you want, please try not to tell me that my want is wrong.

Or if I believe other than you, at least pause before you correct my view.

Or if my emotion is less than yours, or more, given the same circumstances, try not to ask me to feel more strongly or weakly.

Or yet if I act, or fail to act, in the manner of your design for action, let me be.

I do not, for the moment at least, ask you to understand me. That will come only when you are willing to give up changing me into a copy of you.

[macogw]

Do they know about Launchpad or about making feature requests? How many Windows users file bug reports, make feature requests, or write specs for future Windows releases? Not many.
I think Launchpad is linked on the first page of the forum. We do say "go file a bug report at launchpad.net" though. And no, Windows users have absolutely no say at all in how Windows turns out. At least here they have the chance to make suggestions in the form of specs. On Windows they have to hope there's a Windows dev thinking like them.


I think ubuntuforums users should expect a lot of whining from users who are making the switch for the first time. Ubuntu does have a reputation of being a 'newbie' distro. I know people get frustrated with the 'Ubuntu should be like Windows' threads, but you have to deal with it. I don't think aysiu's post is the right way.
I'd like more open minds about switching. I switched because I wanted to try something that wasn't Windows and see what it's like. I did not expect it to be Windows. Is that the problem? Do people expect it to be virus-free Windows? Bad expectations. If that's not it, then I guess it's that they're too stubborn to learn to click on a different button or afraid of the system or something.

[Adamant1988]

So you expect all new users to be able to do all the things aysiu listed;

Donate money (they can if they have it)

Contribute code (requires some knowledge of a programming language, a little too much to ask new users to do)

Write documentation (new users can, but they have to understand what they are writing about and how to answers questions/problems from other users, again I feel it is a little too much to ask a new user)

Create artwork (they can do this once they know any of the related programs)

File bug reports (maybe, new users still need to know how to file bug reports that are useful to developers, maybe a little too much)

Write up specs/blueprints for the upcoming release (too much for new users)

Help new users solve their problems (too much for new users, but they could handle certain problems)

If the person cannot do one of the those things, they don't deserve to even be using a computer, let alone deciding what happens to Ubuntu.

[aysiu]

I think you should go back and read my first post.

I didn't say it was addressed to new users (even though, as someone else pointed out, new users could be programmers). Nor did I say all criticism of Ubuntu is a bad thing.

My three main points were:
Ubuntu being different doesn't excuse its shortcomings, but it doesn't mean the solution to every problem is "make it more like Windows."
If you want to help Ubuntu improve, contribute in one of these ways:
But if you're feeling the itch to really have a Windows-clone distro... make one. Seriously. I think there are enough people here who feel a Windows-clone Linux distro would be a benefit to a group of people that they should invest some of that time and energy into making one. ...with that last italicized part being the main crux of the message (hence the subject title of the thread).

Nowhere do I say you can't criticize Ubuntu. Nowhere do I say my post is addressing new Ubuntu users (though I'm not excluding them either). Nowhere do I say you have to be able to code.


Never said that.
Never said that either.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said new users are ignorant.
Never said new users were computer illiterate. Never used the word illiterate that's your word.
Take time to read my other posts before criticizing me
Worse then people putting words in my mouth.
Please stop misrepresenting what I'm saying.
Considering how defensive you get about people misrepresenting what you've said, I think you should be aware that a lot of the arguments in this thread, especially yours, tbroderick, have nothing to do with what I actually said in the first post.

I plead with you: please stop misrepresenting what I'm saying.

If you do that, maybe others will extend you the same courtesy.

[aysiu]

As much as I respect Aysiu - I really can't understand the purpose of this thread. It's not constructive by any means - and after a day or two, it will disappear into the depths of the forums. So really, this thread just seems like a rant - something which:

a) is not helpful
b) is pretty much everything the forums are against Actually this thread is addressed to all the people who want Ubuntu to be a free version of Windows. If they have another gathering place or a location where I can file bug reports with them, I will gladly go through the proper channel. Since most of the "Make Ubuntu exactly like Windows" threads appear in the Cafe, I figured the Cafe was the proper place to address the original post.


Now, I'm by no means a saint - I have a few infractions against my name because I sometimes 'colour my language' (to put it one way :P). However, surely anyone can see that telling new users to 'fix it themselves' is NOT the way to give support, which is what this forum is about, basically. Yes, this is the 'general' area - but even still, people are going to read it and think 'Oh, those Linux geeks are at it again'. And I never said, "Fix it yourselves." I said the Ubuntu developers are fixing Ubuntu, and here are some ways you can help, but the way Ubuntu developers are fixing Ubuntu isn't by making it a carbon copy of Windows.

The second point is that maybe all these people who do want Ubuntu to be a carbon copy of Windows should pool their resources (talent, time, money) and actually start their own version of Ubuntu that is a carbon copy of Windows. It was just a suggestion, not a demand.


In short - if we want people to use Ubuntu, we can't afford to just point people elsewhere. That's completely the opposite of building a community. If people don't want a free operating system unless it tries to be exactly like Windows, then they actually should be directed elsewhere. Their rants about how Ubuntu should be like Windows will never happen, and they'd be better off doing something productive. All I was doing in the first post was suggesting what productive things they could do--go along with Ubuntu is doing and contribute to that, or pool resources and start something else.


Yes, you can say 'but this is what open-source is about!', but at the same time - be realistic. Those who are capable of contributing may well do after some time - certainly not as soon as they start using Ubuntu. And when did I say this had to be as soon as people started using Ubuntu? I never said that. Like tbroderick, you are misreading what I said. I have neither singled out or excluded new users. I'm addressing anyone (new or old) who wants Ubuntu to be a Windows clone.
The vast, vast majority of people, however, just want it to work, and probably aren't going to contribute at all in terms of coding / donations etc etc. Regardless of whether we like that or not, if we want Ubuntu to be successful, then we have to pretty much appease whatever it is the user wants / needs. "The user" doesn't want one single thing. There are many users out there, and they do not all want Ubuntu to be exactly like Windows.

[DoctorMO]

I think everyone should view the 'How to deal with poisonous people' video google devs did. it was quite interesting and I think it applies to people in the community some of whom don't know hows to deal with trolls and poisonous snakes. and others who are trolls and poisonous people (it explains it in the video that sometimes these people don't know it or don't mean it) but we can't go around pandering to these peoples want for a fight.

[justin whitaker]

I think ReactOS could sure use the help: http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

[aysiu]

I think ReactOS could sure use the help: http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html
So do I. Imagine if all of these efforts to make Ubuntu into Windows actually went into testing and improving ReactOS.


I think everyone should view the 'How to deal with poisonous people' video google devs did. it was quite interesting and I think it applies to people in the community some of whom don't know hows to deal with trolls and poisonous snakes. and others who are trolls and poisonous people (it explains it in the video that sometimes these people don't know it or don't mean it) but we can't go around pandering to these peoples want for a fight. I have considered the very real possibility (and not just from this thread) that tbroderick may be a troll. I believe Tomosaur is sincere, though. Regardless, I'm not going to do a constant back and forth, but I will every now and then clarify (at least for the other people reading this) what I said in the original post.

I gotta say the trolling (if that's what it is) is at least negating what Tomosaur said. If tbroderick hadn't come in here to challenge some twisted version of what I said (instead of what I actually said), this thread may have just disappeared into obscurity. As it did happen, the thread has been bumped all the way up to nine pages.

[Mateo]

Actually this thread is addressed to all the people who want Ubuntu to be a free version of Windows. If they have another gathering place or a location where I can file bug reports with them, I will gladly go through the proper channel. Since most of the "Make Ubuntu exactly like Windows" threads appear in the Cafe, I figured the Cafe was the proper place to address the original post.

Please give a link to one of these threads you are talking about.

[rzlorayes]

Ladies and Gents,

I'm also new to Ubuntu and it does take some getting used to. I've been a Windows user for many years and while I really appreciate its ease of use, I'm uncomfortable with the the idea that the great majority (80%?) of the worlds desktops and notebooks run on Windows. I simply think its too much power in only one O/S.

Be that as it may, I would appreciate Ubuntu better if it were easier to use. Then again, making it easier to use could open it up to serious flaws, viruses etc. I guess though that these things will take time and resources given the fact that this project is generally free i.e. no end-user is required to pay for Ubuntu and the great majority of the contributors are unpaid volunteers.

Personally, I don't think this thread is going anywhere and perhaps this should end. From what I've seen of this forum, this is quite a civilized place with lots of helpful people and it should stay that way.

Just my humble opinion.

[tbroderick]

I think you should go back and read my first post.

I don't know what to say except just ignore me and move on. I read your post totally differently then you do. I guess it's my fault. I apologize for any offense.

[aysiu]

Personally, I don't think this thread is going anywhere and perhaps this should end. From what I've seen of this forum, this is quite a civilized place with lots of helpful people and it should stay that way. I certainly tried to start off the thread civilly. If you feel some people here have been uncivil, please report their posts, and another moderator (I'm too invested in this thread to moderate it) will deal with the offending posts--moving them to the Jail if necessary.

[aysiu]

I don't know what to say except just ignore me and move on. I read your post totally differently then you do. I guess it's my fault. I apologize for any offense. You know what, tbroderick? It's totally cool.

I think you targeted my post unnecessarily, but I think you have a point. There is a lot of backlash against criticism of any sort against Ubuntu, and that's not a good thing. You mistakenly latched on to my post as being one of those when it wasn't. But, as I said before, you do have a point. Ubuntu may be a community-supported distro in many ways--doesn't mean that every single user of Ubuntu has to contribute in the ways I listed, and it also doesn't mean people can't offer criticism (if it's constructive).

You have a nice day!

[prizrak]

Ladies and Gents,

I'm also new to Ubuntu and it does take some getting used to. I've been a Windows user for many years and while I really appreciate its ease of use, I'm uncomfortable with the the idea that the great majority (80%?) of the worlds desktops and notebooks run on Windows. I simply think its too much power in only one O/S.

Be that as it may, I would appreciate Ubuntu better if it were easier to use. Then again, making it easier to use could open it up to serious flaws, viruses etc. I guess though that these things will take time and resources given the fact that this project is generally free i.e. no end-user is required to pay for Ubuntu and the great majority of the contributors are unpaid volunteers.

Personally, I don't think this thread is going anywhere and perhaps this should end. From what I've seen of this forum, this is quite a civilized place with lots of helpful people and it should stay that way.

Just my humble opinion.
Welcome to Ubuntu land, stick with it for a while and you'll get used to the Ubuntu way of doing things. The biggest hurdle (that I ran into myself) is unlearning what you have learned in Windows and not trying to apply what you know of Windows to Linux.

[ticopelp]

I think everyone should view the 'How to deal with poisonous people' video google devs did. it was quite interesting and I think it applies to people in the community some of whom don't know hows to deal with trolls and poisonous snakes. and others who are trolls and poisonous people (it explains it in the video that sometimes these people don't know it or don't mean it) but we can't go around pandering to these peoples want for a fight.

http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645

That video is indespensible. Thanks for linking it.

[macogw]

Ladies and Gents,

I'm also new to Ubuntu and it does take some getting used to. I've been a Windows user for many years and while I really appreciate its ease of use, I'm uncomfortable with the the idea that the great majority (80%?) of the worlds desktops and notebooks run on Windows. I simply think its too much power in only one O/S.

Be that as it may, I would appreciate Ubuntu better if it were easier to use. Then again, making it easier to use could open it up to serious flaws, viruses etc. I guess though that these things will take time and resources given the fact that this project is generally free i.e. no end-user is required to pay for Ubuntu and the great majority of the contributors are unpaid volunteers.

Personally, I don't think this thread is going anywhere and perhaps this should end. From what I've seen of this forum, this is quite a civilized place with lots of helpful people and it should stay that way.

Just my humble opinion.
Out of curiosity, what do you think needs to be made easier (other than the xorg.conf stuff, I think we all complain about that)? Also, how much of that is "unlearn from Windows"? I ask because I considered my mom a good person to try Ubuntu on the basis that while she'd used Windows before, she was so terrible with it that she'd have pretty much nothing to unlearn. She thinks Ubuntu is easier than Windows. I think it's partially because the GNOME Menus make a lot more sense than the Start Menu (separating programs by vendor makes a lot less sense than category, for instance).

[blueturtl]

-

[airtonix]

lol....roflmao..

I;d just like to cheerfully interject with these comments.

tbroderick
when you sy "news user" you actually mean "non-technical-digital-media-consumer" the the domesoticated graduate from the modern school of bovinity

humans exist in this modern age becuase we adapt and learn from our observations.

we adapt to our enviroment, but we need cognetive powers to do this effectivly.

windows is designed to destroy your intellect and make you addicted to flashy substanceless software......sounds like xbox live.....charge for things we always had for free.

how long till o2 is sold in 500ml bottel at the servo for $3.30?

a game magazine released as a joke on the inside of their back cover a comparison of a heroin drug dealer and a software dealer. the list of aspects was the same. its just that what was sold was different.

the documentary "century-of-the-self" by adam curtis explains the explotation of the human desire. cated for and promised wild bountys....the human desire can undo the strongest of dali llamas from their morals.

and so vis this kids brother from another thread who wont use linux coz he thinks since it did not cost more than a playstation 2 he thinks his friends will think he is mentally deificent or worse..the child of HIPPYS!!!! noooooo..


so like the OP says.....we do not need william gibsons vision of the future-consumerist driving our ubuntu linux....

[aysiu]

This whole argument is probably my fault. The subject title Here's an idea - YOU make it more like Windows! sounds confrontational.

It was meant to be controversial in a way, but not in a mean way--it's meant to be more of a challenge/suggestion than a shootdown or putdown.

I actually would like people who want Ubuntu to be like Windows to either contribute in some way to Linspire, Linux-XP, or ReactOS; or to band together and fork Ubuntu into something else that is Windows-like. It would fill a niche, I think. But being Windows-like is just not what Ubuntu has set out to be.

[Gargamella]

linux is linux and xp is xp sto right now to bother on that.

I can't Agree more

[tehkain]

People perceive ubuntu as being difficult or different because alot of things are not done the same way as they were in their old OS. People need to realize that ubuntu, apps, and GNU/linux in general does alot of things differently then Microsoft. Not because we are making it hard but rather because it make more sense. If you never used Windows and your first OS was Ubuntu you would say the same thing about windows if you ever had to use it. Ubuntu doesnt have to be more like windows. Ubuntu has to shed it's self from that idea and instead just use the best concepts. If windows uses that concept, good. If not, to bad. I understand that we should make it easy for windows user to switch but I think we should keep 'better implementation' above that.

[MarkX]

This whole argument is probably my fault. The subject title Here's an idea - YOU make it more like Windows! sounds confrontational.

It was meant to be controversial in a way, but not in a mean way--it's meant to be more of a challenge/suggestion than a shootdown or putdown.

I actually would like people who want Ubuntu to be like Windows to either contribute in some way to Linspire, Linux-XP, or ReactOS; or to band together and fork Ubuntu into something else that is Windows-like. It would fill a niche, I think. But being Windows-like is just not what Ubuntu has set out to be.

It boils down to this:
Most Linuxers don't want to Linux to become a mass OS.
As long as that attitude prevails it won't be.

Windows is geared in every way and detail to catch and keep users, and boy, it does.
Linux is just a comparatively disorganised collection of hobbyist developers who do it as a pastime, there aren't the marketers, consumer psychologists, advertising experts, business analysts, forecasters, designers etc. that aren't developers whose sole purpose it is to get-people-using-the-OS.

Linux is better on the server side because it largely deals with techies who go for the technically better product and it doesn't have to deal with the less able public. It's by techies for techies.

The distros that actually go out and try to catch windows users simply don't have the right staff to out-M$ Microsoft. They not only have the huge task to try and make their distro usable but also lack the people savvy in psychology, marketing, promoting and advertising to make it successful.
Linux development is too techie driven. Linux developers wouldn't have the insight into the wants of potential customers even if they wanted to provide for them. That's why Windows is the best template use as to what people want from an OS *NOW* because they paid consultants countless millions to find out.

Some simple examples:

Negative naming:
"Gnome": Runty eyesore thing with fishing rod begging to be shot with an air rifle.

"KDE": Might as well call it "SWRFXT" for all the sense it makes. Evokes stuffy bearded techies using obscure acronyms to keep people in the dark and justify their dreary existance.

"Ubuntu": Some ethnic word that evokes wannabe treehuggers sending goats to Africa. Dandy, but effall to do with a leading edge technology product, quite the opposite actually. The few people who might actually understand it probably can't afford a computer and the rest don't give a toss about hidden deep meaning.

In fact a lot of the terminology used in Linux reeks of flared-trousery leather-elbow-patched academics who weren't cool enough to make it as hippies or adaptable enough to make it in the real world.

Get advertising students to come up with imaginative names.


Included Desktop themes:
Sorry, but the "gilt edged look" just throws up as a turd brown and urine-yellow discharge on a puter screen (Again, brown is also what said academics chose to be uncool in).

Someone got the popularity list for the themes back to front or above academics chose them. They drip in the ooze of utter lack of imagination and foresight.

Since for some daft excuse just about the most important visual selling aspect has been limited to a puny eight, you need:
One Accessibility theme, one Corporate theme, one XP theme, one aging Treehugger theme, one Techno/Gaming/Teen theme (there might be some real games one day), one Kids theme, one family theme and one Home-user theme.


Have a competition for each type and let a panel from each demographic be the judges to pick theirs
(good themes are already out there, use them).
Don't bother with Linux-geek themes, they actually have fun getting their own.

That's only scratched the surface but all I can bother with now, quite likely nobody's gonna heed my suggestions anyway, yet...

[prizrak]

That's why Windows is the best template use as to what people want from an OS *NOW* because they paid consultants countless millions to find out.
LOL that is really funny thanks for the laugh.
Point 1: Every single Vista user that I had met so far, hates Vista look and feel because it's "too different" from XP. I'm talking MSCE IT professionals who are hired as consultants by my company. You wouldn't believe the amount of complaining I hear from them.
Point 2: OS X is considered by many to be the best designed and most intuitive GUI. In fact Windows borrows very heavily from OS X on all fronts (and always have), yet Apple's sales market share isn't very high.
Point 3: Not a single non techie user had any problem whatsoever using my Ubuntu laptop. Mind you that the only difference I have from a stock Ubuntu install is the window-list is on the bottom panel and shortcuts on top autohiding panel. Well also my menu is much cleaner as I tend to hide all the stuff I don't use.

You are falling into the same exact trap that you claim us "Linuxers" fall into. You are using art work/look and feel as a defining point for market success. OS X has by many people's standards a very attractive interface and yet they are at 5-6% of the desktop (mostly due to their popularity with artists) right now and have been there for a very long time.

I will extend the same challenge I have extended to everyone making the same claim. Find 3,000 people who have never used a computer. Divide them in 3 equal groups of mixed age/gender/background and give each group a different system (try to keep software selection the same to make sure that the OS is what is being tested).
One with Windows on it, fully configured with OpenOffice, K-Lite Codec Pack, Real/Quicktime Alternative, Flash, Firefox and Pidgin (Gaim), some other free useful packages that I might have mixed.
Second one with Ubuntu on it fully configured with similar options. That is all of the Gstreamer codecs, FFMpeg, RealPlayer (rigged to work inside FF), Flash and so on.
Third an Apple system with a similar setup.
Keep the hardware differences (in terms of power) to a minimum.

Have all those people use those systems while studying how quickly they learn how to use them. After that switch the groups around and note how long it takes to learn them a different system, do it till all the groups have used all 3 systems.

Report back with the findings. Once you have that hard data to prove that one is more intuitive than the other we will listen to you. Till then you are an armchair general and those don't win wars.

"KDE": Might as well call it "SWRFXT" for all the sense it makes. Evokes stuffy bearded techies using obscure acronyms to keep people in the dark and justify their dreary existance.
Yet for some reason a BMW 325xi sells quite well, as does a Mercedes CLS55 AMG, and a Mazda MX-5. See where I'm getting at? The name doesn't mean crap it's all about brand recognition and marketing. With all the publicity and Dell now preinstalling Ubuntu I don't think brand recognition will be a big issue.

[aysiu]

It boils down to this:
Most Linuxers don't want to Linux to become a mass OS.
As long as that attitude prevails it won't be. Actually, it boils down to this:
You either talk about something and then do it.
Or you talk about it... and then keep talking about it... and talk about it some more.

I've given you some practical suggestions, and you don't want to take them. Support Linspire, ReactOS, and Linux-XP.

Or start your own Ubuntu-based distro. If there are that many people who support your idea, you should coordinate your efforts with them. Otherwise, you'll have to find some way to do it alone.

[justin whitaker]

Actually, it boils down to this:
You either talk about something and then do it.
Or you talk about it... and then keep talking about it... and talk about it some more.

I've given you some practical suggestions, and you don't want to take them. Support Linspire, ReactOS, and Linux-XP.

Or start your own Ubuntu-based distro. If there are that many people who support your idea, you should coordinate your efforts with them. Otherwise, you'll have to find some way to do it alone.

I agree, but I have to interject that Linspire is "part of the family" now. :)

[aysiu]

I agree, but I have to interject that Linspire is "part of the family" now. :)
Yes, and good for Linspire.

I'm not one to knock Linspire (I know there are a lot of Linspire-haters on the forums, and those people probably have their reasons). I don't want to use it personally, but I like its existence.

It is everything MarkX wants. It doesn't use cryptic geeky-sounding names. It tries to look and act like Windows. It has a video tutorial that pops up right after you install it. All that "good" stuff.

Now that it's going to be based on Ubuntu, it has an incredible base and even more support.

MarkX, I think a lot of your energy and enthusiasm would be put to good use in promoting Linspire--using it, writing documentation for it, marketing it, filing bug reports for it... and if you have some money, donating to Linspire.

Linspire used to be very much based on a pay-for-use model, but it's been moving lately to being more free for use and pay for support (the normal Linux model--the one Ubuntu and other distros use). And, of course, there's always Freespire.

[MarkX]

LOL that is really funny thanks for the laugh.
Point 1: Every single Vista user that I had met so far, hates Vista look and feel because it's "too different" from XP. I'm talking MSCE IT professionals who are hired as consultants by my company. You wouldn't believe the amount of complaining I hear from them.

Haven't even seen Vista but they definately designed it the way they did for a *reason*. That reason could be because they know things are going to eveolve in a way over the next few years that Linux developers don't. You haven't even twigged that in a few years most people will be using, and used to, Vista.


Point 2: OS X is considered by many to be the best designed and most intuitive GUI. In fact Windows borrows very heavily from OS X on all fronts (and always have), yet Apple's sales market share isn't very high.

What OS X is is irrelevant because nobody can afford Mac boxes. Now if Apple had any savvy they'd forget about selling boxes and sell their OS for any puter (Something I'm sure has crossed M$'s mind).

Point 3: Not a single non techie user had any problem whatsoever using my Ubuntu laptop. Mind you that the only difference I have from a stock Ubuntu install is the window-list is on the bottom panel and shortcuts on top autohiding panel. Well also my menu is much cleaner as I tend to hide all the stuff I don't use.

Well of course, Linux always has been for techies who are an insignifcant minority of puter users. Still, most IT pros don't bother with Linux desktop either.

You are falling into the same exact trap that you claim us "Linuxers" fall into. You are using art work/look and feel as a defining point for market success.

Sigh... you still don't get it. I claim the amount of users is the defining point of market success. Packaging is large part of selling, particularly something almost entirely visual (DUH!). People will buy mostly for looks
and only stick with it if it also performs the function. Then it also sells by reputation. Linux has the deserved reputation of being unusable, so get usable and change the name.

OS X has by many people's standards a very attractive interface and yet they are at 5-6% of the desktop (mostly due to their popularity with artists) right now and have been there for a very long time.

OS who? They are nowhere because they are too expensive. And Linux hasn't even managed to pull ahead of them either

I will extend the same challenge I have extended to everyone making the same claim. Find 3,000 people who have never used a computer. Divide them in 3 equal groups of mixed age/gender/background and give each group a different system (try to keep software selection the same to make sure that the OS is what is being tested).
One with Windows on it, fully configured with OpenOffice, K-Lite Codec Pack, Real/Quicktime Alternative, Flash, Firefox and Pidgin (Gaim), some other free useful packages that I might have mixed.
Second one with Ubuntu on it fully configured with similar options. That is all of the Gstreamer codecs, FFMpeg, RealPlayer (rigged to work inside FF), Flash and so on.
Third an Apple system with a similar setup.
Keep the hardware differences (in terms of power) to a minimum.

Have all those people use those systems while studying how quickly they learn how to use them. After that switch the groups around and note how long it takes to learn them a different system, do it till all the groups have used all 3 systems.

Report back with the findings. Once you have that hard data to prove that one is more intuitive than the other we will listen to you. Till then you are an armchair general and those don't win wars.

Your "challenenge" is irrelevant amateur fantasy because the real world isn't a level playing field. (And Linux would still loose because it doesn't do gaming, which you forgot to include, nor does Linux come preinstalled for them in the first place in reality, which means they must bring a geeky friend who could do that at the test (If they can find a geek capable of having non-geek,or any, friends). Oh, and you forgot the task of them finding a 100% Linux compatible puter in the first place, which they almost certainly wouldn't have done in the real world either.)



Yet for some reason a BMW 325xi sells quite well, as does a Mercedes CLS55 AMG, and a Mazda MX-5. See where I'm getting at? The name doesn't mean crap it's all about brand recognition and marketing. With all the publicity and Dell now preinstalling Ubuntu I don't think brand recognition will be a big issue.

Those few that have heard of Linux almost invariably dismiss the brand as unusable techie-tat. It's got the equivalent reputation of a Trabant fitted with an unmaintainable engine managment system.



.

[MarkX]

Yes, and good for Linspire.

I'm not one to knock Linspire (I know there are a lot of Linspire-haters on the forums, and those people probably have their reasons). I don't want to use it personally, but I like its existence.

It is everything MarkX wants. It doesn't use cryptic geeky-sounding names. It tries to look and act like Windows. It has a video tutorial that pops up right after you install it. All that "good" stuff.

Now that it's going to be based on Ubuntu, it has an incredible base and even more support.

MarkX, I think a lot of your energy and enthusiasm would be put to good use in promoting Linspire--using it, writing documentation for it, marketing it, filing bug reports for it... and if you have some money, donating to Linspire.

Linspire used to be very much based on a pay-for-use model, but it's been moving lately to being more free for use and pay for support (the normal Linux model--the one Ubuntu and other distros use). And, of course, there's always Freespire.

I'll take a look at it sometime, thanks. But my life doesn't revolve around computers. I spend half the year renovating a farmhouse on a remote Atlantic island and the rest on all manner of varied hobbies. One of them is building an RC video-plane for filming a documentay of the islands.
Linspire has the potential to be the first flagship Linux-based OS to hit primetime, if the Linux-world gives it full support, because they are too small to do it all by themselves. The world needs a polished Transition-Linux.

[aysiu]

I'll take a look at it sometime, thanks. But my life doesn't revolve around computers. I spend half the year renovating a farmhouse on a remote Atlantic island and the rest on all manner of varied hobbies. One of them is building an RC video-plane for filming a documentay of the islands.
Linspire has the potential to be the first flagship Linux-based OS to hit primetime, if the Linux-world gives it full support, because they are too small to do it all by themselves. The world needs a polished Transition-Linux.
This is from an article about Dell's new deal with Ubuntu. (http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS4736610029.html) I think you'll like it.
Linspire CEO Kevin Carmony said, "We have always told Dell that they need to think of Linux in two very different markets. The first we call the "Linux Enthusiasts Market." This is a relatively small market by Dell standards. We have told them NOT to expect a large number of PC [sales] to this market, likely only around 50,000 units tops, which in Dell standards is hardly worth the bother."

That said, Carmony continued, "This is the market they must start with. For this market, we have recommended Ubuntu. It's the obvious and logical choice for them. I'm sure 70 percent of the respondents to their survey, which would have been filled out by the Linux enthusiast market, are Ubuntu users. So, if you're going to sell to that market, it's the only choice, IMHO."

"This second market for Linux, which we call the 'Linux Mainstream Market,' will require a very different product from Ubuntu," added Carmony. "One that is 1) far easier to use. (By the Linux Enthusiasts Market standards, Ubuntu iseasy to use, but by the [standards of the] Mainstream Market, Ubuntu is not nearly easy or polished enough. 2) that supports DRM, Multimedia files, DVD, Java, Flash, QuickTime, 3-D graphic drivers, etc. 3) That has a revenue model for Dell beyond moving a few low-end boxes. 4) That has a longstanding OEM program for certification, support and revenue creation, and 5) doesn't fall into the cross hairs of any potential IP lawsuits from Microsoft and others."

It is this "Mainstream" market that Linspire is now aiming at. "So, we have told Dell, to make sure they understand both of these markets and have proper expectations for each," said Carmony. "The expectation for the first Enthusiasts market is that you won't sell a lot of PCs, but it needs to be a distro that market wants, and that's Ubuntu."

Carmony continued, "Then, in the years ahead, prepare for the second, mainstream market. I think you can guess which distribution we think they should pick for that market! This was one of the main reasons we switched Linspire's baseline to Ubuntu, so that we can join in the hardware certification between the first and second markets for OEMs."

For now, though, "Ubuntu is the ideal choice and we support Dell 100 percent in that choice. This is a positive step in the right direction for ALL Linux vendors. I'm not one of those who you will find saying, 'Yay! Now that Dell is in the game, this will change EVERYTHING!' This is just one of the many logical steps that will be needed for Linux to continue to move to that second market," concluded Carmony. You have to understand, though, that Linspire and Ubuntu, while different in their goals and methods, are not in direct competition with each other, and the Ubuntu community does support Linspire and vice versa. Linspire plans to base its next release off Ubuntu. That means all the work that goes into Ubuntu directly benefits Linspire's development. Likewise, Linspire has plans to port its Click-N-Run software to Ubuntu, which means Ubuntu also directly benefits from Linspire's development.

That's the beauty of open source.


Linspire has the potential to be the first flagship Linux-based OS to hit primetime, if the Linux-world gives it full support I don't think you really understand how things work. In open source, all work is collaborative and competitive. Since the code is open, you can base your software off someone else's software and improve it. You can also incorporate someone else's software in your own. Ubuntu doesn't build its distro from the ground, and neither does Linspire. Ubuntu bases its work off Debian. Its Network Manager icon is designed by Red Hat. Its Nvu was originally funded by Linspire. Linspire is now going to be based off Ubuntu.

It's not like Microsoft and Apple where Windows is based off only itself and Mac OS X is based off only itself and any implementation has to be done totally from scratch and any shared code or ideas are labeled as "stealing."

Open source and "the Linux world," as you call it, are about sharing, not stealing. The competition is there and real, but it is also cooperative. It's not as if any ground that Ubuntu gains Linspire loses and vice versa. Any ground Ubuntu gains, Linspire benefits from, and vice versa.

[prizrak]

MarkX,
Dude your responding style is horrible, you should really start putting your response outside of quoted text.


Haven't even seen Vista but they definately designed it the way they did for a *reason*. That reason could be because they know things are going to eveolve in a way over the next few years that Linux developers don't. You haven't even twigged that in a few years most people will be using, and used to, Vista.

So you basically see MS as infallible, that's quite a lot of faith there.

What OS X is is irrelevant because nobody can afford Mac boxes. Now if Apple had any savvy they'd forget about selling boxes and sell their OS for any puter (Something I'm sure has crossed M$'s mind).
I don't think that price is that much of an issue, people buy Thinkpads and VAIO's that cost just about as much. I do agree that Apple would be in a better position if they sold OS X for something other than Mac.

Well of course, Linux always has been for techies who are an insignifcant minority of puter users. Still, most IT pros don't bother with Linux desktop either.
Umm, you might want to re read what I said...

OS who? They are nowhere because they are too expensive. And Linux hasn't even managed to pull ahead of them either
Depending on estimates but Linux is generall ranked at about the same usage.

Your "challenenge" is irrelevant amateur fantasy because the real world isn't a level playing field. (And Linux would still loose because it doesn't do gaming, which you forgot to include,


We are talking about usability and ease of use. We are also not talking about gamers, PC gaming is a niche market and is pretty small compared to consoles. Besides we are not talking about what software can be run.

nor does Linux come preinstalled for them in the first place in reality,
Ummm..... System76, Dell, Emperor Linux.... That's just the ones I know.

which means they must bring a geeky friend who could do that at the test (If they can find a geek capable of having non-geek,or any, friends).
Way to insult 90% of the board dude.... I think of myself as a geek and have non geeky friends, geeky friends, and even *Gasp* a girlfriend.

Oh, and you forgot the task of them finding a 100% Linux compatible puter in the first place, which they almost certainly wouldn't have done in the real world either.)
It isn't as difficult as you may think. Every single system I had was 100% compatible and until my last laptop I never built/bought them with Linux in mind. It's not that difficult to research something online either way.

Those few that have heard of Linux almost invariably dismiss the brand as unusable techie-tat. It's got the equivalent reputation of a Trabant fitted with an unmaintainable engine managment system.
Considering that a few governmental agencies and schools have switched over I would say that you are wrong.

You fell into the same trap as everyone else does. You are not thinking in terms of marketing forces. The reason Windows took off all those years ago wasn't home users it was the enterprise users. This is the market that Dell is targetting with their latest Linux offering, that is the market that will help home user adoption. As you can imagine an enterprise desktop user will not be facing the same issues as the home user with initial adoption.

[aysiu]

It isn't as difficult as you may think. Every single system I had was 100% compatible and until my last laptop I never built/bought them with Linux in mind. It's not that difficult to research something online either way. I didn't buy any of my three computers with Linux compatibility in mind, and they've all worked. Well, my laptop worked with Feisty (not with Edgy or Dapper).



You fell into the same trap as everyone else does. You are not thinking in terms of marketing forces. The reason Windows took off all those years ago wasn't home users it was the enterprise users. This is the market that Dell is targetting with their latest Linux offering, that is the market that will help home user adoption. As you can imagine an enterprise desktop user will not be facing the same issues as the home user with initial adoption. I agree with you about marketing forces (you didn't say anything about parasitic business practices, though?), but you keep saying the latest Dell offering is for enterprise and not home. Everything I've read in the news says the Dell Ubuntu computers are to be consumer PCs, including Dell's own website: (http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/05/01/13147.aspx)
As part of an overall effort to update our Linux program, today we are announcing a partnership with Canonical to offer Ubuntu on select consumer desktop and notebook products. Are consumer PCs the same as enterprise ones? Maybe I'm confusing the terminology myself.

[prizrak]

I agree with you about marketing forces (you didn't say anything about parasitic business practices, though?),
I basically just don't want to get into that, too many people view those as conspiracy theories.

but you keep saying the latest Dell offering is for enterprise and not home. Everything I've read in the news says the Dell Ubuntu computers are to be consumer PCs, including Dell's own website:
Are consumer PCs the same as enterprise ones? Maybe I'm confusing the terminology myself.
To tell you the truth they've confused me too. They first said that they would be installing Linux on their business grade systems (Latittudes not Inspirons). Perhaps they mean to say that you can just buy them from their website instead of working out a bulk order deal as you had to in the past. I suppose gonna have to wait and see how they choose to market it but I doubt it will be marketed to home users much.

[Happy_Man]

I believe that when I stumble upon one of those threads, this will be my response:


http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2629225#post2629225
pwned.

[aysiu]

To tell you the truth they've confused me too. They first said that they would be installing Linux on their business grade systems (Latittudes not Inspirons). Perhaps they mean to say that you can just buy them from their website instead of working out a bulk order deal as you had to in the past. I suppose gonna have to wait and see how they choose to market it but I doubt it will be marketed to home users much. I think you're right. There's a lot of speculation right now, and we just won't know how this new Dell deal is significant (or insignificant) until we see how it's implemented (pricing, placement on web page, hardware choice, target audience, advertising, etc.).

[jiminycricket]

One page I'd like to see taken from Windows' book is the device manager . On Windows you can pick the item and double click and download/install drivers (not that it ever actually works, but theoretically), and having that would be nice. The restricted drivers manager is a step in the right direction, but not quite it. It'd be nice if the device manager also told you the name of the driver that device uses (for instance, if you have ATI you might not know if you're using radeon or fglrx).
It's coming, both upstream and in Ubuntu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeviceManagerSpec

I think a good (superior) restore point sub is Backup PC (http://www.howtoforge.com/linux_backuppc). BTW restore point never worked well on Windows for me. It seemed like a giant, giant hack. Synaptic already has versioning built-in.

For Debian 'universal' packages, the only kind-of sub I can think of is a DVD of repositories...

[MarkX]

MarkX,
[QUOTE]Dude your responding style is horrible, you should really start putting your response outside of quoted text.

I'm used to (google-groups) usenet where it's done automatically, not by laboriously doing it manually each time in traditional Linux style. The Ubuntu forums are awkward to use for anything beyond monologues.


So you basically see MS as infallible, that's quite a lot of faith there.

(Another thing that happens on usenet is you can see the whole subthread and context within the conversation...) No, it just does it's homework exceptionally well on the business side. That's how it's become the world's most successful monopoly.


I don't think that price is that much of an issue, people buy Thinkpads and VAIO's that cost just about as much.
It is an issue AND they buy thinkpads+vaios in preference.



I do agree that Apple would be in a better position if they sold OS X for something other than Mac.

I don't get why they haven't, I'm sure they'd make more do$h than selling overpriced gear.


Umm, you might want to re read what I said...
Can't, the forum engine's cut it from the replyt.


Depending on estimates but Linux is generall ranked at about the same usage.
Not on objective data.


We are talking about usability and ease of use. We are also not talking about gamers, PC gaming is a niche market and is pretty small compared to consoles. Besides we are not talking about what software can be run.

Linux is only just starting to work on making the cli redundant. I'm trying Ubutu right now and the moment I need to go into a CLI, it gets wiped, ready for another try in a year or two. No way I'm going to learn and start using another MsDos again, life is too short.


Ummm..... System76, Dell, Emperor Linux.... That's just the ones I know.
Nobody else does.


Way to insult 90% of the board dude.... I think of myself as a geek and have non geeky friends, geeky friends, and even *Gasp* a girlfriend.
I use the traditional definition.


It isn't as difficult as you may think. Every single system I had was 100% compatible and until my last laptop I never built/bought them with Linux in mind. It's not that difficult to research something online either way.


Next one i put together will be "OSX friendly", that might reward the effort of researching...


Considering that a few governmental agencies and schools have switched over I would say that you are wrong.

You fell into the same trap as everyone else does. You are not thinking in terms of marketing forces. The reason Windows took off all those years ago wasn't home users it was the enterprise users. This is the market that Dell is targetting with their latest Linux offering, that is the market that will help home user adoption. As you can imagine an enterprise desktop user will not be facing the same issues as the home user with initial adoption.
An enterprise user will be presented with a pre-configured and admin maintained system.
Linux is years behind M$ as usual, and could be level by simply copying what M$ does because they DETERMINE computer evolution with manufacturers. Linux can only ever overtake M$ by copying and then passing it. M$ are developing for years in the future, Linux always plays catch-up, it's barely getting around to ridding itself from the archaic CLI.

[aysiu]

I do agree that Apple would be in a better position if they sold OS X for something other than Mac. I don't get why they haven't, I'm sure they'd make more do$h than selling overpriced gear. Actually, I have to disagree with both of you on this one. One major reason Mac OS X "just works" is the hardware and software being designed to work with each other and Apple having to test on and develop for only a limited number of configurations (Mac Mini, iMac, Macbook, Macbook Pro, Mac Pro). When you have only five computers to support, making an OS that "just works" is relatively easy.

When, like Windows, you have to support pretty much every consumer PC on the market... it helps having a virtual monopoly because you don't really have to support the PCs so much as the hardware manufacturers support you by including Windows drivers with their CDs and doing their own testing (what moronic hardware manufacturer wouldn't test to make sure their scanner/printer/video card worked on Windows?).

And when, like Linux, you have to support pretty much every piece of hardware on the market... well, you have a lot of work to do... and, without the virtual monopoly, you get very little support from outside vendors.

[prizrak]

(Another thing that happens on usenet is you can see the whole subthread and context within the conversation...) No, it just does it's homework exceptionally well on the business side. That's how it's become the world's most successful monopoly.
That's fair, they are very good at business. I would disagree with you on the design aspect of it though. I find OS X confusing and it's supposed to be the most intuitive so it's really what you are used to that matters.

Can't, the forum engine's cut it from the replyt.
I said NON techie users. Not TECHIE users ;)

Not on objective data.
Agreed, sadly it can only be estimated as there are few actual sale figures.

Linux is only just starting to work on making the cli redundant. I'm trying Ubutu right now and the moment I need to go into a CLI, it gets wiped, ready for another try in a year or two. No way I'm going to learn and start using another MsDos again, life is too short.

Out of curiosity, why did you need to go to CLI? I've used Ubuntu for the past 2 years and never NEED to drop into CLI. Unless of course I want to use Bluetooth, BT in Gnome is absolutely horrible, don't know how KDE is. Actually I haven't needed since RH 7.2 until I decided to run a headless server.

Nobody else does.
There are a bunch of regional places that do and at least one or two online shops. Considering that Dell is #2 PC vendor in the world I think that it's a pretty significant step.

An enterprise user will be presented with a pre-configured and admin maintained system.
Very true, however if you get a Dubuntu system for your home it will also be pre-configured. Enterprise users who have been exposed to what a Linux desktop looks and acts like will not have a problem switching at home.

Linux is years behind M$ as usual, and could be level by simply copying what M$ does because they DETERMINE computer evolution with manufacturers. Linux can only ever overtake M$ by copying and then passing it. M$ are developing for years in the future, Linux always plays catch-up, it's barely getting around to ridding itself from the archaic CLI.
That is simply not true. Linux has won over the server market by doing things differently from MS. You might be right about the business side of things as MS are great at coxing people into using their software. You seem to be a power user and that is likely where the problem comes in. It's very hard for a power user to switch environments because we are used to tinkering and know alot about the OS we use. It took me a few years to switch as well and I likely had very similar challenges. Thing is that unless you get into the nitty gritty of the OS such as hardware management there is very little difference between Windows and Ubuntu (Linux). While you and I do that, my girlfriend, my mother, a couple of friends I have don't. To them it really makes no difference what to use as long as they can click on the Firefox icon and have it take them to the same internet.

[aysiu]

There are a bunch of regional places that do and at least one or two online shops. Considering that Dell is #2 PC vendor in the world I think that it's a pretty significant step. This is the most comprehensive site I've seen:
The Pre-Installed Linux Vendor Database (http://lxer.com/module/db/index.php?dbn=14)


You might be right about the business side of things as MS are great at coxing people into using their software. MS doesn't coax people so much as trick them. You've used Linux for years and know of only two existing Linux vendors. Most people don't even know you can buy Linux preinstalled. As far as they're concerned, "a new computer" means "a Windows computer." There are no other options... except Mac.

[prizrak]

Actually, I have to disagree with both of you on this one. One major reason Mac OS X "just works" is the hardware and software being designed to work with each other and Apple having to test on and develop for only a limited number of configurations (Mac Mini, iMac, Macbook, Macbook Pro, Mac Pro). When you have only five computers to support, making an OS that "just works" is relatively easy.

When, like Windows, you have to support pretty much every consumer PC on the market... it helps having a virtual monopoly because you don't really have to support the PCs so much as the hardware manufacturers support you by including Windows drivers with their CDs and doing their own testing (what moronic hardware manufacturer wouldn't test to make sure their scanner/printer/video card worked on Windows?).

And when, like Linux, you have to support pretty much every piece of hardware on the market... well, you have a lot of work to do... and, without the virtual monopoly, you get very little support from outside vendors.

Well I have thought about it and I don't think it's actually true. Thing is that OS X is based on BSD that we all know works just fine on PC hardware (well Macs are all x86 now anyway). There is already hardware and software out there that support OS X. Just about every printer, scanner, digital/web camera that I have seen out there has a Mac logo on the box. They couldn't sell OS X like MS sells Windows, where you pick up a DVD at your local Worst Buy, that much is true. However Apple being as well known as they are with the iPods could make deals with some PC manufacturers to preinstall OS X on some of their machines. Asus and Foxconn come to mind as they already built Mac machines for them. I'm also sure that brands like HP and Dell wouldn't mind offering OS X in addition to Windows. It would still make the hardware configurations fairly limited and allow Apple to test them thoroughly. Software can still be certified by Apple before it goes on sale, although I'm pretty sure they only test the most popular things such as Photoshop or Mac Office. The only catch is that Apple would pretty much have to get rid of the Macintosh brand as it would be too pricey in comparison. Although I suppose that the Mac brand could still be kept as the high performance one and the rest sold as cheaper entry level hardware. I know a few people who would buy a low spec system with OS X, hell they would even get the more expensive Mac systems just so they don't have to worry about viruses and spyware (obviously people who don't want to use Linux).

[prizrak]

This is the most comprehensive site I've seen:
The Pre-Installed Linux Vendor Database (http://lxer.com/module/db/index.php?dbn=14)

MS doesn't coax people so much as trick them. You've used Linux for years and know of only two existing Linux vendors. Most people don't even know you can buy Linux preinstalled. As far as they're concerned, "a new computer" means "a Windows computer." There are no other options... except Mac.

Biggest problem in my mind is that people just roll over and take it. When it comes to OS's most people seem to become devote Christians and turn the other cheek. When the OS crashes taking all of your data with it because MS couldn't even get animated cursor code to work correctly, people bitch and moan but take the system to Geek Squad or fix it themselves if they have the knowledge. When a tire on the SUV blows up Ford ends up paying a settlement that is larger than some countries's national income. Even worse when some idiot set cruise control in his RV on the highway and went to make coffee in the back causing him to crash he gets $7mil a new RV and the manual now says "cruise control is not an auto pilot". How long would MS monopoly last if people would not just take it from them and take them to court over every virus that infects more than 20 machines.

[Pragmatist]

A wide range of ideas have been discussed in this thread, and I'd like to address some of them.

What is user-friendly and how does one determine if an OS is user-friendly?
The obvious answer is: "users find it easy to use". However, it is a little more complicated than that as who are the "users". For example, if you are an experienced Linux user used to using the CLI, you'll find advances in desktop managers such as GNOME and KDE to be irrelevant at best. In fact, those users usually won't even want them installed! Let us assume then that we are talking about "average users". This still isn't completely clear, though. Are we referring to "new users"? If so, "new" to what? Computers? A particular OS? For the purposes of this post I'll define "user" as "Somebody who uses computers with some regularity but it isn't a hobby of theirs and they are not especially tech saavy." Since something like 90% of home computer users use Windows, I'll assume that the limited computer experience of this "user" is with Windows. I'll define "new user" as a user that is new to Ubuntu. So now we have: "Somebody new to Ubuntu who uses Windows computers with some regularity, but it isn't a hobby of theirs, and they are not especially tech saavy."

Ok, now what does "easy to use" mean? Easy to learn? Easy to use on a regular basis, even if there is a small learning curve to begin with? "Easy to use without any previous learning, and no learning will be necessary later." For this post let us define "easy to use" as this last definition. Now we have a "new user" coming to Ubuntu expecting it to be "easy to use". After all of these tedious definitions, my point is that a "new user" will never find it "easy to use". The reason is very clear: If all you know is Windows, you will have to invest SOME time to learn something new. Sometimes, when such a "new user" compares his Windows experience with his Ubuntu one, he will be disappointed, because he doesn't want to spend ANY time at all in learning how to use his computer. His computer plays a minor and limited role in his life and he wants it to stay that way. Everyone says "Ubuntu is so user-friendly" so he tries it out and is truly annoyed that he even wasted his time just to find out he'd have to waste even more time to use the thing!


Microsoft versus Linux
MarkX's comments about marketing and the superiority of M$ miss the critical point of a monopoly. Yes, sometimes monopolies develop because they are the most desired. Often they develop when one company is given a complete lock as the only supplier of a particular item and people have no choice. i.e. they buy it because it is the only one available, not because it is the best. We all know that M$ was sued more than once for monopoly and had to pay huge fines. Even if M$ became a monopoly by first becoming the most popular OS, that does not mean they are currently the best OS. IMHO, the single biggest hold M$ has is due to the nature of the "average user". If somebody learns how to use a computer a little bit at a time over the course of many years, and they did it this way because they don't like investing time in learning how to use a computer, then they are unlikely to ever change their OS. I know some very intelligent people, university professors in science and mathematics, to site one example, who are too busy to invest time to learn a new OS--even if it would ultimately save them more time in the long run. The computer is just a tool for them and they have lots of other work to do.

The "Active" Computer User
If all of this has sounded a bit abstract, I'll be more specific. IMHO, Linux is for people who are "active" computer users. They don't have to be geeks, just people who are willing, and enjoy, spending some effort to improve their computing experience. This includes people willing to put in some time up front and then only work on their system if necessary. It is this "active" quality that led to Linux as we know it, since it was necessary for users to actively contribute for the greater good. Voluntary cooperation is still the essence of Linux. I would guess that the earliest generations of Linux user's would be surprised, to say the least, that a distribution like Ubuntu, with one of the first truly excellent help forums, a devotion to helping and attracting new users, and a configuration designed for extensive multimedia use--a traditionally difficult area for Linux, has gotten so far that it's biggest concern is becoming easier than M$!!. In fact, the expectation really means: "make Ubuntu require MUCH less effort than M$, preferably no effort at all!".

To conclude, I completely agree with aysiu and go even a step further. Not only should posters make their suggestions in the appropriate places, they should understand how and why improvements are made and scale their expectations accordingly. If there is some superior feature in any other OS, or even distribution within Linux, we should try and incorporate that into Ubuntu. However, it should be objectively superior. I think new users, especially frustrated ones, need to differentiate between features that are objectively better, and ones that are better just because they would enable the suggester to avoid learning something new.

[MarkX]

Actually, I have to disagree with both of you on this one. One major reason Mac OS X "just works" is the hardware and software being designed to work with each other and Apple having to test on and develop for only a limited number of configurations (Mac Mini, iMac, Macbook, Macbook Pro, Mac Pro). When you have only five computers to support, making an OS that "just works" is relatively easy.

When, like Windows, you have to support pretty much every consumer PC on the market... it helps having a virtual monopoly because you don't really have to support the PCs so much as the hardware manufacturers support you by including Windows drivers with their CDs and doing their own testing (what moronic hardware manufacturer wouldn't test to make sure their scanner/printer/video card worked on Windows?).

And when, like Linux, you have to support pretty much every piece of hardware on the market... well, you have a lot of work to do... and, without the virtual monopoly, you get very little support from outside vendors.

Good point.

[MarkX]

(snips)
[QUOTE]I said NON techie users. Not TECHIE users ;)
OK, My mistake.

(snip)


Out of curiosity, why did you need to go to CLI? I've used Ubuntu for the past 2 years and never NEED to drop into CLI. Unless of course I want to use Bluetooth, BT in Gnome is absolutely horrible, don't know how KDE is. Actually I haven't needed since RH 7.2 until I decided to run a headless server.

I started with Suse6.x and gave up on that after a couple of weeks, similar with the boxed 8.2 which I paid for. Then Suse 10.something (or was it 9.?). Again one was expected to use the CLI for installing basics like the Firefox plugins. No way that was ready for primetime so it got wiped.
I was also looking for a messenger which did webcam and voice with MSN. That's still not available. Then I tried ubuntu 6.? and it messed up when I swapped monitors. Since I couldn't see anything with either monitor I couldn't have fixed it even if I'd wanted to.
Anyway, after Dos and windows 3.11 I avoid the CLI like the plague, I'd rather stay with XP until it's 100% unnecessary in Linux. Like the vast majority of puter users I'm not interested in puter software as a hobby (I already program PIC processors in basic).




There are a bunch of regional places that do and at least one or two online shops. Considering that Dell is #2 PC vendor in the world I think that it's a pretty significant step.

I remember someone doing that before and virtually no one bought them. I know Ebuyer (big, cheap mail order) here in GB do cheap Linux boxes but reading the buyer reviews people just wipe Linux and put XP on. Selling a Linux box doesn't mean it will stay one. It would be interesting to learn the ratio that gets wiped, it looks pretty high.

http://tinyurl.com/2vusmb

I wonder how many of the Dell boxes will get converted to Windows...


Very true, however if you get a Dubuntu system for your home it will also be pre-configured. Enterprise users who have been exposed to what a Linux desktop looks and acts like will not have a problem switching at home.

Possibly, but it rather depends on wether it will need a techie to keep running.


That is simply not true. Linux has won over the server market by doing things differently from MS. You might be right about the business side of things as MS are great at coxing people into using their software. You seem to be a power user and that is likely where the problem comes in. It's very hard for a power user to switch environments because we are used to tinkering and know alot about the OS we use.

That's the thing, one doesn't need to know much about XP. The only aggro to me is the virus, spyware and security and the application "upgrades" designed to attack your wallet, (cost isn't necessarily a factor, as you might know)


It took me a few years to switch as well and I likely had very similar challenges. Thing is that unless you get into the nitty gritty of the OS such as hardware management there is very little difference between Windows and Ubuntu (Linux). While you and I do that, my girlfriend, my mother, a couple of friends I have don't. To them it really makes no difference what to use as long as they can click on the Firefox icon and have it take them to the same internet.

Well it's mugs here who has to sort things out for my crowd. One of the things holding me back from changing is no webcam and voice support in MSN which many friends and family abroad use. Until that works out of a box any changeover is on hold for sure.

[loell]

:KS

while its true that there is no one messenger that can do both webcam and voice with msn/wlm

you can use ekiga or gizmo 3.0 for linux to do voice with msn/wlm using gtalk2voip service.


so amsn for webcam and ekiga or any sip based phones for linux for msn voice.

[MarkX]

:KS

while its true that there is no one messenger that can do both webcam and voice with msn/wlm

you can use ekiga or gizmo 3.0 for linux to do voice with msn/wlm using gtalk2voip service.


so amsn for webcam and ekiga or any sip based phones for linux for msn voice.

That's just not feasible. My wife uses cam and voice simultaneously (distant relatives) so until voice+cam for msn are available for Linux, it won't get installed on our main computers, full stop.

[loell]

That's just not feasible. My wife uses cam and voice simultaneously (distant relatives) so until voice+cam for msn are available for Linux, it won't get installed on our main computers, full stop.

yeah it is feasible, you just don't get it.

like i said amsn for webcam + IM , and any sip base phone(ie ekiga) with gtalk2voip service for voice.

so by using two applications "simultaneously" you achieve the purpose. until such time that you are willing to

consolidate linux applications to achieve this goal, you got to stay with windows, Non stop. ;)

[pmj]

When you have switched from one OS to another you can't help but compare the two. Windows and Linux both have their own strengths and weaknesses, and sometimes something does work better in Windows. It is perhaps easier or faster or better looking or whatever.

Just because you want Linux to be just as good, or even better, doesn't mean you want Linux turn into Windows or that you would want to use a distro that sets out to clone Windows as far as they can legally get away with. You can like and use Linux and wish we would take good ideas and features from other operating systems at the same time.

Or wait. Is this is another subtle trolling thread of yours, aysiu? If so, I'm afraid it was a bit too subtle for me this time. I also don't see what the point would be.

[yoasif]

This is a horrible thread -- Ubuntu would be going in the wrong direction if it wanted to copy Windows -- they should cut the middleman and go straight to Mac OS X.

Linux has a great philosophical model (well, not as good as BSD), but the desktop experience has a bit to be desired. Windows has a horrible philosophical model in comparison, and has engaed in many negative actions in the past, but is decent (probably better in many ways) on the desktop experience end. Mac OS X is (I'd say) ambiguous philosophically (still commercial, uses open standards generally, and OSS), but has a fantastic user experience.

Ubuntu aping Windows would be a waste of time...

[aysiu]

Just because you want Linux to be just as good, or even better, doesn't mean you want Linux turn into Windows or that you would want to use a distro that sets out to clone Windows as far as they can legally get away with. You can like and use Linux and wish we would take good ideas and features from other operating systems at the same time.. I agree fully. Or maybe you didn't read the second sentence of my original post?

[pmj]

I agree fully. Or maybe you didn't read the second sentence of my original post?

I did read it, and I obviously wasn't making my point clearly enough.

The problem with your argument is that you decided what was genuine improvements and what was cloning of Windows that didn't belong in Ubuntu. You only mentioned two examples of what was bad cloning, and I and obviously many others disagre with one of them, namely that the Windows way of installing software is always a bad idea.

[saphil]

I don't see a lot of point to making Ubuntu more like Windows. It is different, and already better in so many ways. Not having to spend time defragging and checking for viruses more than make up for some minor differences. and having to use synaptic or aptitude to get dependencies matched.

Just because the 1 application = 1 package rule almost always works in windows does not make it logical. Distribution of tasks where projects are loosely linked to their dependencies works better, since the underlying technologies can be upgraded continually, even when the GUI is not being changed.

My windows-user clients are all the time deleting stuff that is required to make their systems run. They won't run as limited users because many of their packages only run properly in administrator mode. Ubuntu users have just as much ability to hash their OS but the sudo convention makes them think about it more. Since Windows is looking more like OSX every day, shouldn't we cut the corner and just aim for that kind of GUI control? What's that? We are already there??

[Jhongy]

I disagree with the first post a little -----

If you want Ubuntu or Linux to be more like Windows in general... don't start up your own distro that is more like Windows... instead, just **** off back to Windows please. It's that simple. Linux is not Windows... and hopefully never will be.

Linux is better than Windows in many, many respects... and in other respects it definitely needs improvement -- but such improvement does not mean "making it more like Windows". In most respects, it is just different.

e.g. The common problem -- installing graphics drivers, setting resolution..... Yes, for new users, it is difficult. Yes, it can be a challenge. But I do *not* think it is harder or involves more steps than in a non-preinstalled Windows....

[saphil]

But I do *not* think it is harder or involves more steps than in a non-preinstalled Windows....It is funny that Linux has accrued the title of hardware-incompatibility queen. Vista Home Premium and all the business versions are going to require upgrades of entire system units for (I have read) 80% of the computers owned by Windows users today. Seems like Vista will receive the tiara.

This will not be newsworthy, though, since the hegemony in business keeps repeating "Nobody ever got fired for suggesting the company use Microsoft."

[starcraft.man]

It is funny that Linux has accrued the title of hardware-incompatibility queen. Vista Home Premium and all the business versions are going to require upgrades of entire system units for (I have read) 80% of the computers owned by Windows users today. Seems like Vista will receive the tiara.

This will not be newsworthy, though, since the hegemony in business keeps repeating "Nobody ever got fired for suggesting the company use Microsoft."

LOL, ya its true when ya think about it, there are hundreds and thousands of pieces of hardware and software that are just incompatible with Vista entirely (due to the way of course they "patched/rewrote" vista to be more secure) yet everyone takes that in stride cuz microsoft comes up to the podium and says "Its for SECURITY!!!" and yet, Ubuntu/Linux is secure and it is still able to support old hardware...

Just goes to show one thing, some people will listen to anything Microsoft says...

[macogw]

It is funny that Linux has accrued the title of hardware-incompatibility queen. Vista Home Premium and all the business versions are going to require upgrades of entire system units for (I have read) 80% of the computers owned by Windows users today. Seems like Vista will receive the tiara.

This will not be newsworthy, though, since the hegemony in business keeps repeating "Nobody ever got fired for suggesting the company use Microsoft."

Technically, Linux has, out of the box, the best hardware support of any OS. You know those little driver disks that come with everything (wireless keyboard, printer, etc)? I throw them out. Windows and Mac users need them because their OS doesn't have enough drivers built into it.

[macogw]

This is a horrible thread -- Ubuntu would be going in the wrong direction if it wanted to copy Windows -- they should cut the middleman and go straight to Mac OS X.

Linux has a great philosophical model (well, not as good as BSD), but the desktop experience has a bit to be desired. Windows has a horrible philosophical model in comparison, and has engaed in many negative actions in the past, but is decent (probably better in many ways) on the desktop experience end. Mac OS X is (I'd say) ambiguous philosophically (still commercial, uses open standards generally, and OSS), but has a fantastic user experience.

Ubuntu aping Windows would be a waste of time...
I hope Ubuntu never becomes Mac OSX. I'd have to switch to Debian. I can't stand the NeXTSTEP-style UI on a Mac. I want my menus to be attached to my programs. Screen real estate is cheap these days. It's not like one program takes the whole screen anyway. I can have 5 windows open and that darned menu will be too darned far away if it's the Mac-way. I don't understand the dragging-things-to-God-knows-where thing on a Mac either. I don't eject the cd from my cd player by throwing it in the trash. Why do that on the computer? Press the eject button! Their way of installing involves bringing *all* the libraries in one package (like on Windows) so that's wasteful too. I definitely feel like (when I'm not being bugged about WGA), I have a much better user experience on Windows than on a Mac. Maybe it's because I'm not used to Macs enough, but, then again, I picked up Ubuntu's UI immediately. A few years of using Mac OSX in apprenticeships and computer labs, and I still don't understand it. I've given up on trying to figure out their UI. I know just enough to launch a terminal and use that (at least it uses bash! yay!), though without apt I'm not sure how to get irssi or lynx on there...and those are necessities for command-line-only mode.

[B. Gates]

Technically, Linux has, out of the box, the best hardware support of any OS. You know those little driver disks that come with everything (wireless keyboard, printer, etc)? I throw them out. Windows and Mac users need them because their OS doesn't have enough drivers built into it.
Let me give you a hypothetical situation (and I expect honesty here!)

Let's say you have two choices for an operating system, and you're going to select an OS based SOLELY on their hardware support. Which one would you select?

(a) One which has more "out-of-the-box" drivers, but less total drivers for commercial hardware (eg. Linux)

(b) One which has less "out-of-the-box" drivers, but virtually total support for all commercial hardware (eg. Windows)

On a totally unbiased opinion, I'd select (b). Being able to install an OS and have a greater selection of hardware without manual installation is nice, but ultimately, getting hardware that WORKS for your OS is more important. If drivers are a few clicks from installation anyway, then why bother using the OS with less hardware support?


PS. Don't mention things like how Linux supports SPARC and Windows doesn't. We all know that - I'm referring to hardware people can buy at a store, the commercial hardware consumers actually use, not niche products.

PS. For clarification, I'm recommending that people stop advertising how Linux has more out-of-the-box support for drivers. It's a failed advantage if less hardware actually works; at best you'll mislead people, and at worst leave a bad taste in their mouth with regards to Linux

[macogw]

Well if you're able to write or fix drivers for it...I mean, it's not like ATI's drivers actually work on any OS...but if you have open source ones (like we're about to get for Linux), you can at least fix them...the Windows ones will keep sucking :p

If it was just drivers, yeah, b (though I could--and do--consider a an opportunity to get some more practice with C). Thankfully, it's not just drivers.

[rajeev1204]

..................

[prizrak]

I already program PIC processors in basic
You are one crazy mofo ;)

I remember someone doing that before and virtually no one bought them. I know Ebuyer (big, cheap mail order) here in GB do cheap Linux boxes but reading the buyer reviews people just wipe Linux and put XP on. Selling a Linux box doesn't mean it will stay one. It would be interesting to learn the ratio that gets wiped, it looks pretty high.

http://tinyurl.com/2vusmb

I wonder how many of the Dell boxes will get converted to Windows...

Windows boxes get converted to Linux as well I wonder what the balance looks like.

Possibly, but it rather depends on wether it will need a techie to keep running.

From personal experience it's a setup once run forever system, I think it might depend heavily on usage patterns. On a laptop its quite nice and trouble free. On a desktop it might be more difficult since those tend to get upgraded and the hardware changed. There is of course a problem with peripherals since there is no "made for Linux" logo, tho hopefully if the Dell's idea takes off it may changed.

That's the thing, one doesn't need to know much about XP. The only aggro to me is the virus, spyware and security and the application "upgrades" designed to attack your wallet, (cost isn't necessarily a factor, as you might know)

Again from personal experience. I was a DOS user until '97 because the only system I had was a 286. So when I went to a Win 95 Pentium it took me some time to get used to the GUI system. Then it took me a couple of months to learn the system. When I went to 98 I had to learn a couple of new things but it was mostly similar to 95. Then 2000 came and that took a couple of weeks to get used to but it was still largely the same as 9x. Then XP which was nothing more than 2K with a few improvements from ME.

To tell you the truth when I tried Ubuntu out I had to learn only as much as I would if I had upgraded from 95 to XP to be able to just use it. Obviously troubleshooting and administration took a bit more time.

I really think that for you (and many others) it's easy to use XP because it's really not that different from previous versions of Windows. I actually hear quite a few complaints about Vista because it was changed around quite a bit.

P.S. Forgot to add that. Webcam support is absolutely horrible, well that French dude wrote drivers for like 235 of them but w/o software that can reliably use it it's pretty pointless. Although I do think that if that would be the only problem it might be worth it having a Windows VM just for that.

P.P.S. My issue is with people saying that the ONLY way to succeed is to mimick Windows. I think that any worthwile idea should be incorporated whether Windows/OS X has it. However I don't believe that technology alone will bring any kind of market share. After all people deal with numerous Windows problems and stay with it anyway. It's all about the marketing and product positioning, if Dell does it right it might create at least a niche market that is large enough to get support from ISV's and OEM's. I mean Apple only has like 5-6% share but you still see "Designed for Apple" hardware.

[prizrak]

I agree with jbroderick on this one . Lot of his points are valid . Maybe even the crap part .

So go ahead , start posting against me now .


Just because the guy used crap in his post does not mean u should pounce on him should you ?

What a nice way to waste a thread .

I understand aysiu's frustration because he has to deal with this daily . What about the others ?


Trying to respond gently brings joy to either side :)
Any of us who frequent the forums have to deal with this daily and it gets pretty annoying.

[Foxmike]

I disagree with the first post a little -----

If you want Ubuntu or Linux to be more like Windows in general... don't start up your own distro that is more like Windows... instead, just **** off back to Windows please. It's that simple. Linux is not Windows... and hopefully never will be.

Linux is better than Windows in many, many respects... and in other respects it definitely needs improvement -- but such improvement does not mean "making it more like Windows". In most respects, it is just different.

e.g. The common problem -- installing graphics drivers, setting resolution..... Yes, for new users, it is difficult. Yes, it can be a challenge. But I do *not* think it is harder or involves more steps than in a non-preinstalled Windows....

Actually, what's fun with Linux (IMHO) is that it's about choice. Choice of Distro, choice of GUI, choice of plenty of other things, INCLUDING the choice (and, therefore the right) to breack it into pieces, not to use it at all, making it a Windows Clone or even **** on it.

I am not telling here that people (especially here I guess) will like you more after that, but I believe that, at the end, it is the user that has the ultimate choice.

So if the user wants to make it a Windows Clone, why not? That does not has to be the same choice than the Ubuntu Devs! And Ubuntu Devs has no obligation to make the same choices as the user. So, basically, at the end, if the user wants something he is alone wanting, then the only way to get it is to make it.

Besides that, I have nothing to complain (yet) with the way Ubuntu handles software installation. You should just try Gentoo (which is definitely not for me...).

Regards,

-FM

[Pragmatist]

I understand your point, B.Gates, but it isn't as cut-and-dry as all that. The kind of hardware your referring to isn't "supported by windows". The hardware supports windows, not the other way around. This is not just semantics. The hardware manufacturer includes a driver disc with drivers that THEY wrote for Windows. Windows didn't have to support anything. If Linux was 90% of the home user market, then manufacturers would always write and include Linux drivers and Windows would have to fend for themselves. So the only fair "hardware support" comparison is between drivers already included in Windows and those already included in Linux. If you include "Plug-and-Pray" devices, then Linux really wins hands-down. I knew a PhD in Computer Science, this was a few years ago, who told me the best way to diagnose hardware was with Knoppix. Knoppix, was, and still probably is, known for it's phenomenal hardware recognition.

Bottom-Line: Advertising the superior hardware recognition capability of Linux is perfectly reasonable since the definition of support is that the OS is doing the supporting. However, given the common misunderstanding of what "hardware support" means, i.e. "hardware designed to work with such and such OS", then perhaps this advantage shouldn't be as strongly emphasized.

[rajeev1204]

Any of us who frequent the forums have to deal with this daily and it gets pretty annoying.


Thats why i rarely visit the cafe :)


Sorry i mean i rarely post here .:biggrin:


P.S Prizrak did u notice --- u can actually notice the impeller (fan) in ur avatar slowing and stopping when u press the forward/back button in browser !

Ultra cool

[prizrak]

P.S Prizrak did u notice --- u can actually notice the impeller (fan) in ur avatar slowing and stopping when u press the forward/back button in browser !
Hehe, yeah I love my avatar. Forced induction is for life ;)

[loell]

and you have the only avatar that does animation. errmm, i'm jealous,

too bad no one can add animated avatar this time. :popcorn:

[tashmooclam]

Linux/Ubuntu is a much more logical set-up than Windows, it is superior in every way in my opinion.
I have one little gripe, but overall I love the empty desktop, only 3 menus to pull down, pull-down menus instead of a silly "pull-up" menu that says idiotic "start" (start what exactly?)
Unfortunately there are many users who were brought up on inferior OS like windows.
The only complaint by former Mac users is that the polish and appearance of things in Mac is aesthetically more pleasing. Maybe that's just font rendering.
I think Ubuntu is nice, gnome is nice, Linux is nice and soon Windows will have 2 competitors for OS and it is a strong #3 contender!

[Sayers]

I'm starting to contribute code :)

[aysiu]

I'm starting to contribute code :)
To what?

Ubuntu? ReactOS? Linux-XP? Linspire?

[Sayers]

Ubuntu , Not directly helping Ubuntu, since i'm just learning Python but http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3112477#post3112477

[Jellicletrb]

I'm trying to help out on the forums more, but I'm still learning alot myself..

..and I reversed it. I moved the taskbar in XP to the top of the screen, to make my Windows more like Ubuntu

:lolflag:

[stepan2]

what really needs to happen is for windows to be more like linux :p

[aysiu]

I've moved to its own thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=516178) the tangent about renaming Places.

[aysiu]

Just wanted to bump this thread, since a lot of people lately have been arguing to make Ubuntu like Windows. I doubt you'd be able to convince the Gnome or Ubuntu developers to do it.

The beauty of open source is the ability to fork, though.

I think, given the number of people screaming for a Windows replacement (large enough to do something, not large enough to be a majority, though), there is probably a good group of folks who could put a coordinated effort into forking a Ubuntu that behaves like Windows. Why don't you all get together and do it?

http://reconstructor.aperantis.com/ would be a good place to start.

[TheOtherLinuxFreak]

.

[eentonig]

I think the main reason that's stopping them, is to find a good name for it?

May i propose "Winbuntu"?

:mrgreen:

[forrestcupp]

I think the main reason that's stopping them, is to find a good name for it?

May i propose "Winbuntu"?

:mrgreen:

Cool. Now we can start, guys.

[TechieZero]

If you want to help Ubuntu improve, contribute in one of these ways:
* Donate money
* Contribute code
* Write documentation
* Create artwork
* File bug reports
* Write up specs/blueprints for the upcoming release
* Help new users solve their problems


Another thing that should be done is to PROMOTE UBUNTU.

Tell people that your damn machine was up and running w/ Ubuntu in the time it took to BOOT UP, as if you had spent more than an hour w/ Windows. Tell them about the wealth of software and the ease of installing it, the community support etc. Go tell them!!!

More people using it and involved will be the measure of it's success. I wish people would have done this to me over a year ago and I was a stalwart Windows fan. Let this happen...no more. :cool:

[Foxmike]

What about making Windows more like Ubuntu... I already started and my boss thought I hacked my workstation :D

[aysiu]

Here are a few things the Winbuntu team can work on:

* Change the filesystem hierarchy to be less confusing for new users who like to poke around system files

* Change the default colors from brown/orange to blue/green

* Make .deb files that include all dependencies

* Bind Control-Alt-Delete to Gnome System Monitor

* Change Firefox to select all when you click the address bar

* Replace GIMP with Kolourpaint

* Replace Gedit with Leafpad

* Install IEs4Linux

* Install Wine by default

Any other ideas for these folks?

[TechieZero]

Any other ideas for these folks?

The one thing I found a challenge and compared to Win --- a royal PITA was in sharing networked drives and folders to other Win based platforms on a LAN. SAMBA is really complex --- more than what Joe Average Win user is going to want to do. I muddled through it and found a really good post here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=202605) by Stormbringer but I went through the motions and still feel un-confident about any other future needs I might have.

So basically Linux needs a really strong cross platform network solution that is a GUI. After the install I should be able to share drives and folders to the network with a couple of clicks --- especially to any Windows based device.

[heimo]

Any other ideas for these folks?

Perhaps use other default desktop environment, or at least customize it to look and behave more like on Windows (panel at the bottom with Start/Apllication menu on left side etc). Customize or create new preferences / control panel. Customize boot screen. Improve / fix default cut'n'paste / clipboard behaviour. Remove desktop switcher from default install. Make 3D desktop effects default based on your hardware specs. Hide all "under the hood" stuff like libraries from update manager and system processes from System Monitor.

[original_jamingrit]

This thread is making my head hurt.

Is it really necessary to fork the LiveCD? Wouldn't it be better in the long run to do a scripted downloader like Automatix to include Linux transitional applications like wine and ie?

Maybe instead of hiding library and system files outright, just make icons appear invisible/half-visible based on the user's permisions?

And maybe instead of calling it winbuntu, call it something more like Chrysalis Linux or Evolution Linux. Staying away from that "Linux for the sake of Windows" line of thought would be especially wise for a project targeted at newbies in the community, stick to "Linux for the sake of Windows Users".

Also, I agree that more centralized configuration tools for a desktop enviroment would probably be handy.

[gwbennett]

I'm all for that, actually, especially for those without an internet connection.

But then if you install 3 "programs" that require dependencies a-z to be installed, you get 3 copies of each! Welcome to Windows bloat! :)

[Scruffynerf]

But then if you install 3 "programs" that require dependencies a-z to be installed, you get 3 copies of each! Welcome to Windows bloat! :)

... Cue "Registry / Central Index" to keep a track of installed programs/libraries....

There are certainly ideas in here that I think have merit, especially, ESPECIALLY having self-contained install packages (what about the ".run" installs currently available - it's close. 'Sudo sh' commands notwithstanding).

How about something that appears in a right-click menu GUI (Gnome/KDE/Fluxbox etc) that allows the installation of something as a 'sudo' entry? Like how XP has a "Run As Admin" option, perhaps a "Sudo Install" or "Sudo Edit" option for things people download that are not in a repository? I think that alone could go a long way to removing the need for command line knowledge. The repositories / package management alone is/was a huge step towards this, and I think that something in a right-click menu option could complement this.

There's probably a script that allows Nautilis / Dolphin / Whatever to already do this, but I can't locate one.

[Boaslad]

So, call me odd.
It's just a thought.
But, Wasn't the reason that we swapped to Ubuntu "so we could get away from Windows?"

Personally, I love the fact that Ubuntu doesn't look or act at all like Windows. If I had my way, I'd hack my Windows XP to make it look like Ubuntu! But, thats besides the point.

If you want a Windows OS, Go buy a Windows OS. If you want to help develop something new, fresh, and innovative, stick around and give the guys in R&D some good ideas to play with. Like here's one: "External hard drive support for NTFS file systems with out the need to jerry rig the permissions around" or how about "wide screen resolutions for LCD monitors"

As for making it "like Windows".. No thanks. I want my Linux to be better than that. And with Ubuntu, it is.

[Sunnz]

Ohh let's make a Winbuntu go Winbuntu@!!!

Hahaha.. haaaa...

[ShadowVlican]

Another thing that should be done is to PROMOTE UBUNTU.

Tell people that your damn machine was up and running w/ Ubuntu in the time it took to BOOT UP, as if you had spent more than an hour w/ Windows. Tell them about the wealth of software and the ease of installing it, the community support etc. Go tell them!!!

More people using it and involved will be the measure of it's success. I wish people would have done this to me over a year ago and I was a stalwart Windows fan. Let this happen...no more. :cool:
don't forget to tell people how many hairs you lost trying to get a printer to work! or Syncing pocket pc contacts/emails/etc or...


Here are a few things the Winbuntu team can work on:

* Change the filesystem hierarchy to be less confusing for new users who like to poke around system files

* Bind Control-Alt-Delete to Gnome System Monitor

* Change Firefox to select all when you click the address bar

* Replace GIMP with Kolourpaint

* Replace Gedit with Leafpad

Any other ideas for these folks?
filesystem definitely needs to "look" better... i can't even figure out where mplayer was installed and how to edit its config files

replacing applications.... there has been much discussion about the included default applications... more than often people here tend to use other software (so perhaps make the most common one the default instead)

[HermanAB]

Well, Winbuntu won't be complete if it won't run the most common virus and spamware. That capability will need a lot of work.

Winbuntu ain't done, if Storm won't run...

[p_quarles]

Well, Winbuntu won't be complete if it won't run the most common virus and spamware. That capability will need a lot of work.

Winbuntu ain't done, if Storm won't run...
I remember reading a thread some time back where the poster claimed that they got several viruses working in Wine (in a VM, obviously).

Of course, you don't want to have to manually install malware, so you'd need to set Wine up with full execution permissions and wide-ranging file associations. Problem solved. :)

[benweston]

The single-most important thing Windows has over Ubuntu is the installation of drivers. It's painlessly easy on Windows. Agreed, Ubuntu supports more hardware out of the box but what happens when you try and install a driver?

Case in point, the nVidia driver for my GeForce 8600GT. I've been on it for three days, and it still isn't working properly. And I'm an experienced Linux user.

There needs to be some big changes in this department and driver installation DOES need to be a lot more like Windows. Not BECAUSE it's Windows but because Windows GETS IT RIGHT.

[bromix]

I think that there are a great deal of people who need to take a few minutes to do an internet search for "Free and Open Source", and read a few articles that explain the movements, the motivations and initiatives of these movements, most important....derive from that refresher what these movements are NOT. Then....regardless of how irritating some newbie's uneducated posts are, keep these ideas in mind when replying. The OP, had a great post. But, we need to remember, if there are a lot of new users out there with the idea that Ubuntu..or linux in general...is Windows with a different name that they just don't have to pay for.....it's because they've been misinformed...or not informed. That being true...it seems a much more advantageous course of action to read that OP again...and find out which areas of support we can each realistically become involved in. Lastly, the people speculating on hardware support, ease of use, etc....find an old version of suse, mandrake, or redhat....even from as recent as a couple of years ago, and throw it in and see how it looks. Linux has grown so much...and not by people reactively wasting time arguing or complaining about what it is not. But, people who have proactively become supportive and involved in financing, developing, troubleshooting, testing, and producing an operating system that is built on "Free as in speech" principles. Not just something to save you some money.

[ago]

I'd suggest you try to make a gnome/kde/xfce configuration+theme which makes windows users feel "more at home". I do not mean an exact windows clone, but something like having 1 panel on the bottom (whith one menu button, taskbar...), similar menu, gnome-control-center, similar window borders, blue/green background... And a mac one too... That should result in a template /home folder.

As a side note, I think that there should be a "profile" selector with a wider reach than the current theme selector. It should affect: window borders, 3D effects, widgets, icons, background, but also panels layout, menu layout, use of control panels instead of menus, window behaviour, gtk-engine....

Profiles should be made available as packages. So you could select a "Ubuntu profile", "Kubuntu profile" (kubuntu look & feel in gnome), "Redmond profile", "Cupertino profile", "Set top box", "Black profile", "Your custom profile"....

[kshane]

Lately, I've seen a smattering of threads suggesting Ubuntu be more like Windows (setup.exe files, Windows-looking themes, etc.).
.................

If you want to keep banging your head against the wall, by all means, keep proposing Ubuntu try to be a free version of Windows. If you want to get something done, do it yourself. There are probably enough of you to coordinate some kind of effort.

I wish you the best of luck!

I cannot say more how much I agree with you!!! Ubuntu is NOT and should NEVER be another Windows...

Kevin

[aysiu]

I do want to clarify a bit here:
The official Ubuntu distribution should not try to imitate Windows, but I am urging those who think it should imitate Windows to take advantage of Ubuntu's open source nature.

People are free to modify and redistribute Ubuntu as they see fit. If these make-it-like-Windows enthusiasts have Reconstructor, some time, and the motivation to do it, they can easily make a Windows clone based off Ubuntu (change the default keyboard shortcuts, change the artwork and theming, rearrange the panels and buttons, etc.)

I'm not being facetious when I say you make it like Windows. I really mean it. If you want Ubuntu to be like Windows, do something about it.

[thx11381974]

Firstly, THANK GOODNESS! Another thing which needed to be said. Ubuntu owes you all exactly nothing; if you don't like it, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Something real, other than simply moaning that it doesn't work how you want it to. Use another distro, or another OS. If there isn't an OS that works like you want, sell you computer and go do something else instead.



Wrong. Ubuntu's purpose is to be "Linux for Human Beings". The human beings are a silent majority (there is catagoric proof of this on the first page of the forums - Currently Active Users: 5413 (947 members and 4466 guests)), so no one posting any of these "make it more like windows" threads speaks for all human beings. As long as Ubuntu continues to grow, it *is* being Linux for Human Beings.

DID ANY ONE READ THIS POST?





I would like to ask what is the point of Ubuntu? Is it an operating system for programmers only? I'm not a programmer and probably never will be. I do however have a genus level IQ and I find Ubuntu difficult to use. For the average user is imposable to use. Not that they can't do anything with it but when they get into trouble they can't get out.
When people say Ubuntu should be more like windows. What they are saying is I want to switch to Ubuntu But it's too hard to use.

Telling these people If you don't like it you sould change it your self is condescending and pathetic.I think reclusivemonkey has it right. If he isn't maybe we should change the name from Ubuntu to something that denotes it's special membership requirements. Humanity towards others doesn't quite fit.

[aysiu]

I'm not a programmer and probably never will be. I do however have a genus level IQ and I find Ubuntu difficult to use. For the average user is imposable to use. I've never read anything more elitist in my entire 2+ years on these forums.

I'm not a programmer and I don't have a genius-level IQ, but I somehow manage to use Ubuntu every day. Don't make it sound as if you, as a genius, speak for us average and only slightly above average users.

[ticopelp]

I've never read anything more elitist in my entire 2+ years on these forums.

I'm not a programmer and I don't have a genius-level IQ, but I somehow manage to use Ubuntu every day. Don't make it sound as if you, as a genius, speak for us average and only slightly above average users.

+1. I started to post the exact same thing, but you beat me to it.

My girlfriend has no problem with Ubuntu, and she's not technically savvy at all. In fact, she frequently hands me her Vista laptop in a panic when something goes wrong. But she's never really had a problem with Ubuntu.

[ticopelp]

[deleted]

[aysiu]

It's possible to have a genus [sic] level IQ and not be able to write grammatically or spell correctly. You're right, too, that thx11381974 may not have English as a first or fluent language.

[ticopelp]

It's possible to have a genus [sic] level IQ and not be able to write grammatically or spell correctly. You're right, too, that thx11381974 may not have English as a first or fluent language.

My comment was probably unnecessary. I've removed it.

[tech9]

Lately, I've seen a smattering of threads suggesting Ubuntu be more like Windows (setup.exe files, Windows-looking themes, etc.).

While I think Ubuntu could learn some things from Windows (a restore point has been suggested a few times, and it's not a bad idea; bullet-proof-x was supposed to be implemented in Feisty but probably won't be fully bulletproof until Gutsy), Ubuntu has never from its outset been a Windows clone. In fact, Mark Shuttleworth (Ubuntu's founder and, currently at least, its primary funder) has stated publicly that he does not want people thinking of Ubuntu as some cheap Windows alternative. Ubuntu, like Mac OS X, is an operating system in its own right, with its own strengths and weaknesses, but it is different from Windows.

Ubuntu being different doesn't excuse its shortcomings, but it doesn't mean the solution to every problem is "make it more like Windows." If you actually follow the development of Ubuntu (from Warty to Hoary to Breezy to Dapper to Edgy to Feisty), you'll see the focus has always been on making things easier for the end user, not the developer. It's a slow process, but it is the direction Ubuntu is heading. If you want to help Ubuntu improve, contribute in one of these ways:
* Donate money
* Contribute code
* Write documentation
* Create artwork
* File bug reports
* Write up specs/blueprints for the upcoming release
* Help new users solve their problems

But if you're feeling the itch to really have a Windows-clone distro... make one. Seriously. I think there are enough people here who feel a Windows-clone Linux distro would be a benefit to a group of people that they should invest some of that time and energy into making one. You can even (thanks to the beauty of open source) base it off Ubuntu. You don't have to start from scratch.

Or you can help contribute to these existing projects:
http://www.linux-xp.com/
http://www.linspire.com/
http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html

If you want to keep banging your head against the wall, by all means, keep proposing Ubuntu try to be a free version of Windows. If you want to get something done, do it yourself. There are probably enough of you to coordinate some kind of effort.

I wish you the best of luck!

well said!

[santiagoward2000]

Here's another idea:
Let's give Ubuntu a "Blue Screen of Death" and find a way to get virus, spyware, trojans, etc to affect it! :lolflag:

[reyfer]

I guess my grandmother must have a bigger IQ than that "genius", because she's being working with Ubuntu for almost six months now and she's happy with her PC. And by the way, she uses it not only to e-mail or surf. She is making stuff with Blender, and she makes lovely music with LMMS. She says that she loves learning, and that using Ubuntu and Linux helps her mind stay sharp. So, "genius", how's that?

By the way, I know there are different kinds of geniuses. Einstein was brilliant at physics, but he would have never been able to play the piano like Mozart. So maybe computers is not your stuff?

[bromix]

my dad can beat up your dad!!

[jviscosi]

I do want to clarify a bit here:
The official Ubuntu distribution should not try to imitate Windows, but I am urging those who think it should imitate Windows to take advantage of Ubuntu's open source nature.

Hmm, I'm always trying to make my Windows machine at work be more like Fluxbox ...

[forrestcupp]

Well, I'm a flippin' idiot and I think Ubuntu is a piece of cake to use.

BTW - I just installed KDE and I made my computer more like Windows.

(just joking, people)

[Buffalo Soldier]

...I do however have a genus level IQ and I find Ubuntu difficult to use....

Oh yes, you're a genus allright :)

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Agenus&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

you don't have to be a genus or even a genius to install mainstream linux distribution nowadays. The only things needed are:
- ability to read what's on the monitor
- ability to use the mouse and keyboard
- common sense

[thx11381974]

It's possible to have a genus [sic] level IQ and not be able to write grammatically or spell correctly. You're right, too, that thx11381974 may not have English as a first or fluent language.

It's my first and only. Your also right that My spelling & grammar are crap. Yes your quote of Me dose look elitist as you have removed it from it's context. I should have phrased it differently. so I'll say this way Ubuntu has no average users only above average users. The average users are the one's who come to this forum get craped on and go back to windows where thing just work. If your tired of listening to them. Don't read their post as your not writing code for Ubuntu their not speaking to you anyhow.

It's you that started a thread telling new users they should stop expressing their opinions. That seems very elitist to Me.

[ticopelp]

Capitalizing your personal pronouns? So you're a deity now? Surely you should be able to use Ubuntu if you're omnipotent!

[reyfer]

Okay, lets stop feeding the troll, sorry, genius troll. This person obviously did not read Aysiu's first post, and if he/she did, it was too deep for his/her understanding level. So lets move on.

[thx11381974]

See all personal attacks no one debates the substance. If my comment about intellect which was only meant to highlight I'm an above average computer user leaves some of you with a feeling I'm being elitist or that I think I'm so much better than you.
Good thats exactly how people feel when they come here and start hearing how they shouldn't express opinions. Unless they want to write a whole new version of Linux themselves. Perhaps your offenses are inadvertent as mine. In any case I'll be the first to apologize.

I'm sorry I made an off handed remark about having a higher than average IQ. I should have considered how sensitive my audience was.

[ticopelp]

First of all, I don't think it's fair to characterize aysiu's initial assertion as being "no one should express his opinion" -- I certainly don't think that's what he was saying, and if you re-read the initial post in this thread, I think you'll find the same. He simply said that suggesting Ubuntu be something other than what it is may not be productive, and that if a Windows-like OS is really what you want, that not only are there other alternatives out there, but that the freedom of open source allows people who are so inclined to make Ubuntu into the operating system they want.

At no time, I believe, was it ever said that one "needs" to be a programmer to use Ubuntu. That is demonstrably untrue, as any number of non-programmers in this forum will tell you.

Secondly, I think the strong reaction came from your poor phrasing -- not "I am an above-average user and modifying Ubuntu is not an option for me," but "I am a genius and Ubuntu is impossible to use." Hyperbole, unfortunately, tends to beget hyperbole.

Again, I would have to second reyfer's suggestion that you re-read the initial post in this thread, as it points out several Linux-based alternatives to Windows that might be better suited to anyone who wants a Windows-like OS.

Using Linux does not require programming expertise -- I can certainly attest to that, as I'm not a programmer. But I think it does require a willingness to operate outside your comfort zone and learn a new set of rules about how your computer works. If that isn't really interesting to you, and Windows is working for you, there's probably no reason to change.

[thx11381974]

First of all, I don't think it's fair to characterize aysiu's initial assertion as being "no one should express his opinion" -- I certainly don't think that's what he was saying, and if you re-read the initial post in this thread, I think you'll find the same. He simply said that suggesting Ubuntu be something other than what it is may not be productive, and that if a Windows-like OS is really what you want, that not only are there other alternatives out there, but that the freedom of open source allows people who are so inclined to make Ubuntu into the operating system they want.

At no time, I believe, was it ever said that one "needs" to be a programmer to use Ubuntu. That is demonstrably untrue, as any number of non-programmers in this forum will tell you.

Secondly, I think the strong reaction came from your poor phrasing -- not "I am an above-average user and modifying Ubuntu is not an option for me," but "I am a genius and Ubuntu is impossible to use." Hyperbole, unfortunately, tends to beget hyperbole.

Again, I would have to second reyfer's suggestion that you re-read the initial post in this thread, as it points out several Linux-based alternatives to Windows that might be better suited to anyone who wants a Windows-like OS.

Using Linux does not require programming expertise -- I can certainly attest to that, as I'm not a programmer. But I think it does require a willingness to operate outside your comfort zone and learn a new set of rules about how your computer works. If that isn't really interesting to you, and Windows is working for you, there's probably no reason to change.

What your saying is kinda true my post was the result of reading 18 pages of post and probably not fair to aysiu. In fact my post was truthfully effected by reading other threads not related to this one. For that I apologize also.

I said not that I found it imposable to use. I'm using it right now. What I was trying to say was the average windows user my mom, friends, people who work for me can't. They have never entered anything into a command line ever. My main point was when these people post on this forum and others saying Linux should be more like windows. They are really saying Linux is too hard to use. You know what their right. In any case when they make these post instead of being asked what they mean they are told Linux isn't for you go back to windows and thats just what they do.

[ticopelp]

I said not that I found it imposable to use. I'm using it right now. What I was trying to say was the average windows user my mom, friends, people who work for me can't. They have never entered anything into a command line ever.


It certainly depends on the user's needs. Installation can be difficult for users who aren't technically inclined, but I think that's true of most OSes -- Linux can definitely be more challenging than most, and I think pre-installed machines, such as the ones Dell is currently selling, are the best bet for people in that situation. Also, if someone's into video production or gaming, Windows is probably the better choice. But if someone just wants to use a computer for the Internet, email and word processing, and it's already set up, I genuinely can't imagine Linux being too challenging for anyone.



My main point was when these people post on this forum and others saying Linux should be more like windows. They are really saying Linux is too hard to use. You know what their right. In any case when they make these post instead of being asked what they mean they are told Linux isn't for you go back to windows and thats just what they do.

Well, what would you suggest as an alternative? If I want to hang-glide, and I find hang-gliding too hard, but am unwilling to practice or learn, and go to the hang-gliding instructors complaining that it's too hard, it's not like they can do much to make it easier for me except say "maybe this isn't the activity for you."

And, once again, some alternatives for people looking for a more Windows-like alternative was listed in the very first post.

I think a lot of the frustration from the Linux userbase comes from new users expecting to become fluent in Linux without ever having to learn or challenge themselves on any level, which I think is an unrealistic approach. (To be honest, I think it smacks of a sense of entitlement in many cases.)

A drop-in replacement for Windows does not exist, and probably won't for many years, if ever. Ubuntu is constantly developing and growing, but it isn't perfect. No operating system is. The developers are constantly trying to make it more intuitive for users, but in my opinion, that is a two-way street, at least where open source is concerned.

If someone doesn't want to learn something, but wants something very familiar with what they're already using, I don't think suggesting using what works for them is condescending or mean-spirited at all. Just my two cents.

[GS2]

User have different 'levels' - indeed I would suggest that many would not be able to 'handle' a BSD box - never mind Ubuntu

That being said I have my parents running Xubuntu with no problems - indeed after 2 years, they prefer it - and would never go back to Windows.

The secret was hardware - ultimately drivers - I chose wireless cards etc that I knew would 'just work' for them. Too may users think that because item 'X' works in windows - it will work on Linux.

The DE itself (whatever flavour) is spot on - as is the ease of updating (synaptic).

In my view Ubuntu does 'just work' - all one has to do is a little bit of homework (did one not have to learn windows too)

[Cannaregio]

So, call me odd.
It's just a thought.
But, Wasn't the reason that we swapped to Ubuntu "so we could get away from Windows?"

Personally, I love the fact that Ubuntu doesn't look or act at all like Windows. If I had my way, I'd hack my Windows XP to make it look like Ubuntu! But, thats besides the point.


I second that. Totally. Ubuntu is a GNU/Linux, debian based, mighty operating system, it is not a poor commercial msdos GUI derivate.
Its CLI is the magic wand that gives to any user that care (I repeat, that care, noone is compelled to use the CLI anymore) cosmic power.

And you know what? I installed Gutsy beta on a friend's box, deleting her severely rootkitted xp partition (she's not at all a geek, in fact she barely knew how to use windows XP anyway) and she told me "thanks: windows works much better now".

So I conclude:
1) ubuntu is already much too much windows-like (for chrissake: she didn't even notice she was running a different operating system at the beginning). This is flabbergasting, to say the least, but I'm not sure if it is a compliment for Ubuntu.

2) ubuntu is VERY easy to use for non geeks.

[thx11381974]

To be honest, I think it smacks of a sense of entitlement in many cases.

This may be true. If so it has to work both ways. We all need to stop complaining about Microsoft and the hardware makers not providing spec. on hardware. If open source doesn't have responsibility to serve all computer users. Then I hope it fails. Microsoft & closed source in general may not conduct them selfs in the fairest manner.
But they don't turn anyone away.

[ticopelp]

If open source doesn't have responsibility to serve all computer users. Then I hope it fails.

Where on earth are you getting this idea?



Microsoft & closed source in general may not conduct them selfs in the fairest manner. But they don't turn anyone away.

Well, here's an experiment. Try not saying "yes" to a license agreement next time you install some software and see if you can still install it. Try not authenticating your version of Vista. For that matter, try running some Linux programs on Windows (after all, a common complaint is that Linux doesn't properly run Windows programs... sauce for the goose, yes?) Then see if Microsoft "doesn't turn anyone away."

This will be my last post regarding this particular discussion. Best of luck to you.

[reyfer]

User have different 'levels' - indeed I would suggest that many would not be able to 'handle' a BSD box - never mind Ubuntu

That being said I have my parents running Xubuntu with no problems - indeed after 2 years, they prefer it - and would never go back to Windows.

The secret was hardware - ultimately drivers - I chose wireless cards etc that I knew would 'just work' for them. Too may users think that because item 'X' works in windows - it will work on Linux.

The DE itself (whatever flavour) is spot on - as is the ease of updating (synaptic).

In my view Ubuntu does 'just work' - all one has to do is a little bit of homework (did one not have to learn windows too)

But you see, neither you nor your parents are geniuses. Geniuses work in a different plane, and for them to "do a little bit of homework" as you put it is unthinkable. So neither yours nor my experience relates to a genius that can't use Ubuntu. And you get what kind of genius he/she really is when you look at this sentence:


Originally Posted by thx11381974
If open source doesn't have responsibility to serve all computer users. Then I hope it fails.

[thx11381974]

Try not clicking yes to the software agreement for Ubuntu. You may not like Microsoft's terms but you have to agree to Ubuntu's terms to use their OS too.
No they don't turn anyone away they want your money as much as of it as they can get. If you go with them you can be the best programmer that ever lived or not sure how to even turn the computer on. They make sure everyone can use their OS. They never tell you go buy an Apple.
So I'll say it again if open source doesn't owe people like my mom an OS they can use. I hope Microsoft crushes Linux. The point of an OS is to serve It's user. Not make them learn cryptic commands or provide a cause for computer geeks.

[23meg]

Try not clicking yes to the software agreement for Ubuntu.

Where's that agreement?


You may not like Microsoft's terms but you have to agree to Ubuntu's terms to use their OS too.

Where?


They make sure everyone can use their OS.

No, they try to make an OS that's usable by the majority of the masses. Still, some can't use their OS. I can't, as an example. There's no one-size-fits-all solution; it's simply not possible.

The main difference that people have been trying to tell you about is that if you don't agree with Microsoft about how the OS should act, what it should contain and not contain, etc. you have "the freedom to **** off", to quote Tony Wilson. With Ubuntu, you have the freedom to modify the OS to fit your needs.


So I'll say it again if open source doesn't owe people like my mom an OS they can use. I hope Microsoft crushes Linux.

Ubuntu is a sincere attempt at the same technical goal that Microsoft has: make an OS usable by the masses, even though our way of going about it is much different. "Open source" or Ubuntu surely don't owe your mom anything; Ubuntu is presenting your mom with an alternative to Windows and other proprietary platforms that she may or may not choose to use.


The point of an OS is to serve It's user. Not make them learn cryptic commands or provide a cause for computer geeks.

One of Ubuntu's goals is to never make the user have to use the command line. And we're getting there step by step, with each release. Ubuntu doesn't set out to make you learn cryptic commands; if you have to learn them for some reason, that's a present shortcoming with Ubuntu that will get fixed in the future.

[CaptainTux]

I will admit that I did not read all 20 pages of this thread. I just read the first 7 and the last two.

Sticking with the spirit of the original 2 pages (thank you Ticopelp and Aysiu for your great posts on this subject) here are my initial thoughts.

First of all, for those who desire, for whatever reason, to have a more Windows like experience, there are many Kubuntu based distros that have created a more Windows like experience so there is really nothing Ubuntu has to do since others are already doing that.

Secondly, from an adoption point of view, I think it is a misguided effort. I have heard people say that you need the Windows look and feel to ease users into the Linux experience. I stopped using Windows at home in 1997 when I bought a Mac. The classic Mac OS and then OS X look nothing like Windows and that is a strength to Mac IMHO. They get to speak to how sexy and easy to use their OS is. For one who converts from Win to Mac...yeah, there is a learning curve. I had one. Now, here is where I get into the practical marketing aspect of Linux.

Linux has it's own innovations, strengths, and selling points. If you choose the Ubuntu path and create an OS with it's own unique look you get to highlight those points and never have to bring up the Windows factor. If, however, you choose to make your Linux look like Windows, you also have to include and focus on what Linux cannot do that Windows can. This detracts from the pure Linux marketing points. Furthermore, it diminishes Linux by looking more imitative rather than innovative. At the end of the day it will appear to be a less expensive OS that looks like Windows but cannot run Windows software.

Allow me to give you a real life illustration. About a year and a half ago both Microcenter and Fry's carried PC's with Linspire Linux Pre Installed. Now, both of these stores also carried Apple computers as well. In my pro Linux enthusiasm I purchased 2 of the Fry's systems for friends. Going into Microcenter and Fry's was an interesting experience.

Both had the Linspire PC's on display. Both had handwritten signs by the Linux PC's that read something to the effect of: Though these systems resemble the MS Windows Operating System, they do not run Windows software and may not be supported by many/most ISP's.

Do you know what I get from this sign if I have never heard of Linux? I can't get software for it and it won't work on the internet. Now, you go to the Apple Computers and there is no such sign or warning label for Consumers...one is just buying a Mac.

On some of our commercial distros such as Linspire and Xandros I have seen marketing materials that speak of the similarities first and then effectively go into what it CANNOT do and THEN go into the advantages of Linux.

You have to be unique and the approach that Ubuntu has taken has allowed Linux to stand on it's own merits, innovations, and strengths first.

[p_quarles]

One of Ubuntu's goals is to never make the user have to use the command line. And we're getting there step by step, with each release. Ubuntu doesn't set out to make you learn cryptic commands; if you have to learn them for some reason, that's a present shortcoming with Ubuntu that will get fixed in the future.
As an example, the new version includes the "Bulletproof X" feature, which aims to allow users with stubborn graphics processors to get them working without editing xorg.conf. The fact that every version of Ubuntu requires fewer and fewer CLI hacks shows that the developers are very seriously committed to making this a good distro for those who fear the Bash-monster.

Completely aside from that: aysiu has repeatedly pointed out elsewhere that you are almost never presented with a situation that cannot be fixed by copy-and-pasting some commands into the terminal. For problems that do not yet have GUI fixes, there is an abundance of instructions that even the most novice users are capable of following. And the community members here are by-and-large more than happy to help you find those instructions, and even walk you through them if need be.

[aysiu]

I'm with CaptainTux on this, but I think everyone can win here. You can have some distributions that seek to make Windows users more comfortable, and then you can have other distros that (like Mac OS X) market themselves as different.

I much less often hear or read people saying that Mac OS X needs to be more like Windows and that's why it's market share is so low. The most common explanation for Mac's low market share is its limited hardware selection and its cost (not value, you Mac fans--cost).

If you set people up with the expectation that the new operating system will be different (Apple's marketing slogan: "Think Different"), then people will expect something different. If, however, you set people up with the expectation that they're getting a cost-free version of Windows, then they will expect a cost-free version of Windows, and when they don't get it, they'll be sorely disappointed.

And that's what's happening with Ubuntu right now. A lot of over-enthusiastic Ubuntu users are trying desperately to convert Windows users and basically selling Ubuntu as a cost-free version of Windows ("Tired of your spyware and viruses? Come to Ubuntu. Need a Windows program? Just use Wine."). We need to stop that marketing and start touting Ubuntu as different. That's one page we should take from Apple's marketing department.

In the meantime, people are free to make Windows-like Linux distributions. That's the beauty of open source. With Windows, it's take-it-or-leave-it. With Linux, it's take-it-or-make-it-something-else... or-leave-it.

[thx11381974]

Truthfully I find my self only in a small way out of agreement most on this thread. What I'm reacting to what I see as hostility toward windows users that are not tech savvy. I think their suggestions are very important. Maybe you don't want Ubuntu to be an OS for the masses. It seems canonical dose. I do. I'd like it if everyone and his brother starts using Ubuntu. I hope the makers of Ubuntu do every thing they can to make that happen.

I'm going to leave it that I'm tired of reading this thread I think our disagreement is honest and probably well intentioned on both sides.
As such we can honestly disagree.

[p_quarles]

Truthfully I find my self only in a small way out of agreement most on this thread. What I'm reacting to what I see as hostility toward windows users that are not tech savvy. I think their suggestions are very important. Maybe you don't want Ubuntu to be an OS for the masses. It seems canonical dose. I do. I'd like it if everyone and his brother starts using Ubuntu. I hope the makers of Ubuntu do every thing they can to make that happen.

I'm going to leave it that I'm tired of reading this thread I think our disagreement is honest and probably well intentioned on both sides.
As such we can honestly disagree.
Fair enough. Let me just say, though, that I've found the vast majority of users in these forums to be very polite and helpful, even with very basic questions. There are a few troublemakers, of course, but most of us sincerely want to help others attain the same good experience we've had with Ubuntu.

When you do see someone being nasty in response to a support question, please click on the "report" button -- this can help deter the jerks.

[23meg]

Maybe you don't want Ubuntu to be an OS for the masses.

Bug #1 in Ubuntu: “Microsoft has a majority market share” (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1)

People in the Ubuntu community who don't want Ubuntu to be an OS for the masses are in somewhat a paradoxical situation. They're also very few in number, and the intention of this thread has nothing to do with theirs.

[castalla]

oh you forgot to mention Install as a plus for Windows!

[American_Outcast]

Bug #1 in Ubuntu: “Microsoft has a majority market share” (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1)

People in the Ubuntu community who don't want Ubuntu to be an OS for the masses are in somewhat a paradoxical situation. They're also very few in number, and the intention of this thread has nothing to do with theirs.


I am one of the people in the Ubuntu community who knows that it will be a struggle and that it won't happen over night. But I can't see one reason why Ubuntu can't grow and be right up there with MAC and then sometime in the future up their with Windows. In my opinion Ubuntu has already taken the lead in the Linux community and the Linux community as a whole has evolved. If Ubuntu can do that in such a short time among Linux users, then why not something bigger?

All things are possible with Ubuntu..... Wow, that sounds like part of a jingle for a TV commercial, lol.

[benweston]

As some of you may have seen in another thread, I'm setting up a company totally dedicated to Ubuntu and Ubuntu systems and peripherals. In doing so, I did a fair bit of research to see if Ubuntu was feasible on a large scale to a wide demographic of people.

I got loads of different people - from an 8 year old to a 71 year old - to use it. All varying abilities.

Ubuntu, according to my research, IS easier to use than Windows. And that's saying something when Windows has a big, green, fool-proof START button at the bottom. The study was more in-depth than that and I may well post it here some other time.

However, as an experienced Linux and Windows user myself and a fair view on different people's uses of a computer, I do feel there's still much to be done in Ubuntu. But that's the beauty of Open Source. It will get done.

Try saying that about Windows or Mac OS!

[jacobrichards5131]

I understand where OP is coming from, and I'm a WinNetworking IT Specialist in training. But at Home I'm switching to kubuntu, because I don't WANT Windows. I've had enough with it. I'm still noobish, but all I've seen is good in k/ubuntu. It's not windows, and I like that. Setup.exe's are horrible and annoying, networking is a PITA, Drivers are required for EVERYTHING. Almost all of my hardware worked oob on my laptop in kubuntu. My only problems are bluetooth on my laptop and my 5-in-1 card reader only reads SD and CF cards. And I found a solution to the bluetooth problem on the web. Now I've not tried nix on my desktops since 6.04, but EVERYTHING worked on it, then. Oh, and I find the themes and looks of kubuntu much more aesthetically pleasing than Doze, and as soon as I figure out how to make the boot menu look like suse, I'm set. I'll keep a box for windows for school and work, but I've figured out how, and am figuring out how to put my life on kubuntu. And I look forward to one hell of a ride.

Jake

Postscript: Sorry for the rambling and if it seems incoherant, I'm only on my first cup of coffee. :)

[Lucifer The Dark]

Microsoft only has a majority market share thanks to some well thought out deals they've done with pc manufacturers to supply Windows with their machines. If they didn't have those deals in place & retailers could supply any OS the customer might want you'd see a very different picture.

[balaknair]

Good point
I've been using Kubuntu for a couple of months now, and while initially the differences between Windows and Ubuntu were difficult to get used to(they seemed huge, I've used Windows for around 11 years now) and I was wishing just that- why isn't Ubuntu more like Windows?- a few hours later my viewpoint changed entirely.
In fact now I feel that it's easier to do most things in Ubuntu than in Windows(most, not all) and it's a good thing that Ubuntu is different. It may not do everything the same way as in windows, but mostly it's a better, safer more logical way to do things. Whether or not you find it hard depends on how used to Windows(or Mac) you are and how soon you give up(the first time I tried Ubuntu(Dapper) I gave up after an hour).
If you stick with it a little longer you might find something you like better than Windows. I certainly did, and I for one am glad Ubuntu isn't like Windows.

[MarkX]

As an XP user gasping to get away from windows this is my take.
IMHO:
1) With Ubuntu, Linux is finally in a position to become *THE* popular substitute for windows. (Thanks largely to GUI replacing the MsDos-like konsole, to the dismay of kicking and screaming Knerds)

2) Presently it's main drawback (apart from games) is lack of reliable voice+webcam compatibility with Messengers.
That's what many people actually say is the reason the won't install it on their wife's / kid's computers. It's certainly stopped me putting it on four other computers, and why I still use mainly XP.
I suspect most parents would love to put Linux on their kids puters, so they don't have to forever sort out downloaded viruses, but the little dears "need" voice+webcam to talk to their spotty friends..., as btw does my 86 year old mother.

3) The second drawback is that the default desktop doesn't *look* like windows, so virtually all new users IMMEDIATELY feel disorientated.
It's precisely the guff about "individuality" of Linux that puts off 95+% of the world's computer users. It's only a computer, faflicksake! If you wanna feel like a real individual, like, dood, get a silly haircut or wear dayglow trousers, who cares.
Most users have Windows and don't give a flying flick whose OS it is as long as it's reliable, easily maintainable and, most importantly, is quickly usable. It's not our hobby, the puter is just another cruddy appliance to get things done with. (btw. I think there are now more silver surfers out here than kids and we're not bothered about "individuality" and "being different", particularly with something as banal as a computer)

It would be nice if at least there were a windowish layout+theme available for us inept plebs right from the start, which more experienced users like yourselves could immediately change to "the Linux desktop" (whatever that is?) at the flick of a wrist.
(BTW: Why on earth is the "off" button on the top right, exactly in the right place for accidentally hitting it when closing down other windows? First thing I changed, after figuring how).

As soon as Ubuntu gets messenger webcam - voice compatibility I will install it as the default OS on my and other people's computers and struggle as best I can to make it feel like the windows they got used to.

BTW: Big Thanks for Ubuntu, folks! Nearly there in some ways and already better in other!

[aysiu]

As an XP user gasping to get away from windows this is my take.
IMHO:
1) With Ubuntu, Linux is finally in a position to become *THE* popular substitute for windows. (Thanks largely to GUI replacing the MsDos-like konsole, to the dismay of kicking and screaming Knerds)

2) Presently it's main drawback (apart from games) is lack of reliable voice+webcam compatibility with Messengers.
That's what many people actually say is the reason the won't install it on their wife's / kid's computers. It's certainly stopped me putting it on four other computers, and why I still use mainly XP.
I suspect most parents would love to put Linux on their kids puters, so they don't have to forever sort out downloaded viruses, but the little dears "need" voice+webcam to talk to their spotty friends..., as btw does my 86 year old mother.

3) The second drawback is that the default desktop doesn't *look* like windows, so virtually all new users IMMEDIATELY feel disorientated.
It's precisely the guff about "individuality" of Linux that puts off 95+% of the world's computer users. It's only a computer, faflicksake! If you wanna feel like a real individual, like, dood, get a silly haircut or wear dayglow trousers, who cares.
Most users have Windows and don't give a flying flick whose OS it is as long as it's reliable, easily maintainable and, most importantly, is quickly usable. It's not our hobby, the puter is just another cruddy appliance to get things done with. (btw. I think there are now more silver surfers out here than kids and we're not bothered about "individuality" and "being different", particularly with something as banal as a computer)

It would be nice if at least there were a windowish layout+theme available for us inept plebs right from the start, which more experienced users like yourselves could immediately change to "the Linux desktop" (whatever that is?) at the flick of a wrist.
(BTW: Why on earth is the "off" button on the top right, exactly in the right place for accidentally hitting it when closing down other windows? First thing I changed, after figuring how).

As soon as Ubuntu gets messenger webcam - voice compatibility I will install it as the default OS on my and other people's computers and struggle as best I can to make it feel like the windows they got used to.

BTW: Big Thanks for Ubuntu, folks! Nearly there in some ways and already better in other!
These "problems" are not really the fault of Ubuntu per se but the marketplace, wherein people tend to install and configure Ubuntu themselves on a computer designed for Windows.

If people want voice and webcam with Linux on an easy interface, they should get an Eee PC. The Cloudbook Everex is putting out next week with the gOS operating system is Ubuntu-based and is supposed to be similar to the Eee PC.

[MarkX]

It's precisely because the marketplace IS windows that Ubuntu should be easy to convert to from windows.

[p_quarles]

It's precisely because the marketplace IS windows that Ubuntu should be easy to convert to from windows.
Or, to put that another way:

There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

[jerrylamos]

My wife and I have been on PC's since 1982. The face of Microsoft & Intel compatibles has changed enormously over 26 years in look, feel, etc.

My wife uses XP because she supports some web sites that are screwed into Internet Explorer, and specific code like Dreamweaver for specific web site support.

I just bought a Compaq Presario which came with Vista. Ugh. Turgid. Tried to make the recommended recovery disks but they wouldn't use DVD-RW disks. Had to be DVD-R, and you can only make one copy. Disconnected the hard drive and swapped in a hard drive with Ubuntu installed already from another computer.

Ubuntu ran right off. Fast, quick, responsive. Make as many copies of Ubuntu as you want for as many computers as you want on whatever media it will fit on.

Cheers, Jerry

[chris4585]

I dont think ubuntu should look like windows in anyway, i have to admit though the vista "theme' is nice, i personally configure and make the desktop suit my personal needs as soon as i get one setup, nothing i touch usually stays the default look for long, and if someone new to ubuntu does want ubuntu to look like vista per say i've seen tons of ways to transform ubuntu into a vista look-and-feel-a-like, so for those who complain about how ubuntu default should look like windows, why not go back to wndows and try to make it better? but you cant, its a sealed corporation... that brings me to another point how easily configurable ubuntu is to change and look

my 2 cents

[Æniad]

The only thing that Linux needs to considering is .exe files. I'd say that must people don't want to compile their own software.

[aysiu]

I'd say that must people don't want to compile their own software. I'd say that most people wouldn't need to compile their own software--only ex-Windows power users "need" software outside the repositories or easily installable .deb files.

[inversekinetix]

I find it intersting that I don't see people on windows forums saying anything along the lines of 'linux should this .... that.... the other....' nor do I see 'windows should be more/less like this ..... that .....the other'


why is there so much 'infighting' and disagreement between afficionados of the same things. why is there so much comparison to windows. I thought llinux/distros were entities in their own right not needing something for comparison.

[MarkX]

I find it intersting that I don't see people on windows forums saying anything along the lines of 'linux should this .... that.... the other....' nor do I see 'windows should be more/less like this ..... that .....the other'


Because thats what everybody learns how to use a computer with. A vast effort for most people. The market IS people who use windows.


why is there so much 'infighting' and disagreement between afficionados of the same things. why is there so much comparison to windows. I thought llinux/distros were entities in their own right not needing something for comparison.


Because there are two camps:
1) Ardent linuxers who want to maintain a nerdy exclusive club.
They are not interested in average users ( whose computer literacy and ability is quite low).

2) The not so adept masses who are crying out for an intuitive alternative to the windows they struggled to learn.

If Linux doesn't become the "changeover" OS, it will remain the fringe hobby-OS the knerdy brigade want it to be. End of story.

[sujoy]

Because thats what everybody learns how to use a computer with. A vast effort for most people. The market IS people who use windows.



Because there are two camps:
1) Ardent linuxers who want to maintain a nerdy exclusive club.
They are not interested in average users ( whose computer literacy and ability is quite low).

2) The not so adept masses who are crying out for an intuitive alternative to the windows they struggled to learn.

If Linux doesn't become the "changeover" OS, it will remain the fringe hobby-OS the knerdy brigade want it to be. End of story.

I really don't understand what is there so much to learn if you are not much into computer? You can change themes, wallpapers, fonts, surf the web, play some games, listen to music, watch movies and videos, chat(yes the problem with voice and webcam needs to be solved), well..............whatelse did i miss? Oh yes, use the Open Office!:)

What is there to learn in all these? These are just point and click. Installation of applications used to be tough "once upon a time". Surely, not today, with synaptic in place!! Leave aside apt-get / aptitude. Synaptic still works.

An user who doesn't want to learn, probably is not in any form of development area. So, whats there so tough about Linux?

I am using computers since 95-96. And I have my PC since only from 2002. Used windows 98 and then XP all the way through. I have using Ubuntu only since Oct,2007. (Had some short stints with linux snce July,07 though). And I haven't really found anything thats tough to do. Unleass offcourse I am asked to code something.

[MarkX]

I really don't understand what is there so much to learn if you are not much into computer? You can change themes, wallpapers, fonts, surf the web, play some games, listen to music, watch movies and videos, chat(yes the problem with voice and webcam needs to be solved), well..............whatelse did i miss? Oh yes, use the Open Office!:)

What is there to learn in all these? These are just point and click. Installation of applications used to be tough "once upon a time". Surely, not today, with synaptic in place!! Leave aside apt-get / aptitude. Synaptic still works.

I help people who are beginners with computers. They barely know how to close a window. It's only in the last year or so the GUI has become genuinely usable in Ubuntu. The intuitive name for it is "add/remove programs". If I told them to use "Synaptic" they'd go to the Pharmacy.



An user who doesn't want to learn, probably is not in any form of development area. So, whats there so tough about Linux?

People have other things to do than learn computers, particularly if they already started learning a different OS. If an OS is not intuitive to such a vast number of users, it WILL remain fringe.

THE MARKET ISN'T BEGINNERS, IT'S PEOPLE WHO HAVE STARTED WITH WINDOWS.


I am using computers since 95-96. And I have my PC since only from 2002. Used windows 98 and then XP all the way through. I have using Ubuntu only since Oct,2007. (Had some short stints with linux snce July,07 though). And I haven't really found anything thats tough to do. Unleass offcourse I am asked to code something.

So you already had 10 years computer experience when you took up Ubuntu. It's only really been a year or so that Linux has been usable with a GUI (no thanks to the dinosaurs who prefer the console). No wonder you didn't take it up sooner!

[MarkX]

I dont think ubuntu should look like windows in anyway, i have to admit though the vista "theme' is nice, i personally configure and make the desktop suit my personal needs as soon as i get one setup, nothing i touch usually stays the default look for long, and if someone new to ubuntu does want ubuntu to look like vista per say i've seen tons of ways to transform ubuntu into a vista look-and-feel-a-like, so for those who complain about how ubuntu default should look like windows, why not go back to wndows and try to make it better? but you cant, its a sealed corporation... that brings me to another point how easily configurable ubuntu is to change and look

my 2 cents

Of course *we* can change the look, but beginners can't, yet. And these very scared noobs are the vast masses who bought puters with windows on.
Like I said: have a windowish feel about it as the default because competent linuxers can change it at the blink of an eye, noobs can't.

[aysiu]

Of course *we* can change the look, but beginners can't, yet. And these very scared noobs are the vast masses who bought puters with windows on.
Like I said: have a windowish feel about it as the default because competent linuxers can change it at the blink of an eye, noobs can't.
Mac OS X does not have a Windowish feel, and yet Windows users do not demand Mac change its look and feel to make new users feel more comfortable.

A different look and feel lets the user know right away to expect something different. If you make Ubuntu look and feel like Windows, users will expect it to act like Windows and run Windows-only programs.

Better to let them know right away it's something new.

[mikewhatever]

As an XP user gasping to get away from windows this is my take.
IMHO:
1) With Ubuntu, Linux is finally in a position to become *THE* popular substitute for windows. (Thanks largely to GUI replacing the MsDos-like konsole, to the dismay of kicking and screaming Knerds)

Don't exaggerate. I haven't seen much 'kicking and screaming' about the issue, given the older tools are still in place and working.


2) Presently it's main drawback (apart from games) is lack of reliable voice+webcam compatibility with Messengers.
That's what many people actually say is the reason the won't install it on their wife's / kid's computers. It's certainly stopped me putting it on four other computers, and why I still use mainly XP.
I suspect most parents would love to put Linux on their kids puters, so they don't have to forever sort out downloaded viruses, but the little dears "need" voice+webcam to talk to their spotty friends..., as btw does my 86 year old mother.

There are many other drawbacks such as MS office formats, photo and video editing software, hardware support, etc. All these, as well as the point you mentioned are not Linux fault.


3) The second drawback is that the default desktop doesn't *look* like windows, so virtually all new users IMMEDIATELY feel disorientated.
It's precisely the guff about "individuality" of Linux that puts off 95+% of the world's computer users. It's only a computer, faflicksake! If you wanna feel like a real individual, like, dood, get a silly haircut or wear dayglow trousers, who cares.
Most users have Windows and don't give a flying flick whose OS it is as long as it's reliable, easily maintainable and, most importantly, is quickly usable. It's not our hobby, the puter is just another cruddy appliance to get things done with. (btw. I think there are now more silver surfers out here than kids and we're not bothered about "individuality" and "being different", particularly with something as banal as a computer)



It would be nice if at least there were a windowish layout+theme available for us inept plebs right from the start, which more experienced users like yourselves could immediately change to "the Linux desktop" (whatever that is?) at the flick of a wrist.
(BTW: Why on earth is the "off" button on the top right, exactly in the right place for accidentally hitting it when closing down other windows? First thing I changed, after figuring how).

I could not disagree more, but that's your opinion and it's respected.


As soon as Ubuntu gets messenger webcam - voice compatibility I will install it as the default OS on my and other people's computers and struggle as best I can to make it feel like the windows they got used to.

BTW: Big Thanks for Ubuntu, folks! Nearly there in some ways and already better in other!

There is a conviction I find rather strange, that people can only get used to things once. That's not so. I know, that human beings are very flexible and can get used to almost anything, should they choose to.

[laxmanb]

Ooh... setup.exe files!! I'd like those. Or MSI files!!

[sujoy]

So you already had 10 years computer experience when you took up Ubuntu. It's only really been a year or so that Linux has been usable with a GUI (no thanks to the dinosaurs who prefer the console). No wonder you didn't take it up sooner!

yes i had 10 years of experience, but not of windows! in school we would have access to only the logo screen and the GWBASIC screen. thats it:(

but i started windows from 2002 (98 and XP dual boot). and the reason i didn't try out linux before was that i was an avid gamer. i dont play games now because my inbuilt graphics card wont run the new games and dad wont buy me a new one:( ..........

ok i agree that users might have some difficulty in the begininng and GUI must be improved, but that doesn't require Ubuntu to have a default windows get up, does it? lets improve it but not make it a clone of something else.


Mac OS X does not have a Windowish feel, and yet Windows users do not demand Mac change its look and feel to make new users feel more comfortable.

A different look and feel lets the user know right away to expect something different. If you make Ubuntu look and feel like Windows, users will expect it to act like Windows and run Windows-only programs.

Better to let them know right away it's something new.

yes and lets just stop comparing and improve this thing as if there is no other OS to compare to and if this isn't good enough then people will not use this. this is the approach , that IMO, should lead somewhere, rather than fighting over whats tough and whats easy

[inversekinetix]

Because thats what everybody learns how to use a computer with. A vast effort for most people. The market IS people who use windows.



Because there are two camps:
1) Ardent linuxers who want to maintain a nerdy exclusive club.
They are not interested in average users ( whose computer literacy and ability is quite low).

2) The not so adept masses who are crying out for an intuitive alternative to the windows they struggled to learn.

If Linux doesn't become the "changeover" OS, it will remain the fringe hobby-OS the knerdy brigade want it to be. End of story.


nice answer, sounds like nail meets hammer head. Do you think it can become the changeover OS with the two camps battling away, or do you think that is detremental to the whole thing?

[MarkX]

nice answer, sounds like nail meets hammer head. Do you think it can become the changeover OS with the two camps battling away, or do you think that is detremental to the whole thing?

Yes it is detrimental:
Those who doggedly cling to keeping the console interface as the only "proper" way to administer Linux on a day-to-day basis have held back the GUI, and hence the widespread uptake of Linux, for a decade.

In the last few days I have for the first time installed (Ubutu) Linux on friend's computers. One is a 15 year old kid of the type who fill up windows boxes with viruses in days.

IMHO, if Ubuntu can be tuned to be usable by youngsters with short attention spans, it now stands a good chance of becoming a fad amongst ordinary teenagers for the first time.
I don't think the lack of games is as big a drawback as people think, because they just use games consoles instead. It's virus immunity they desperately need.

Same goes for silver surfers, who are less demanding. I have set up their boxes with auto-update disabled, so hopefully they won't need any maintenance for some time.

What's urgently needed is reliable vid+voice support for messenger. Once that is fixed, there is no holding back for vast numbers of people to start using it.

[chips24]

Oh please! (sympathetically) can you help me get that classic start menu for ubuntu?

[airtonix]

THE MARKET ISN'T BEGINNERS, IT'S PEOPLE WHO HAVE STARTED WITH WINDOWS.

and this is made worse by :

employment *specialists*, employers, tafe colleges, universites(these guys are the worst)....alll perpetuating the lie that windows is "TEH WINZ"

universities? well these guys only deal with linux as some obscure 4th year 4 week section. and thats with perl or something.

how many people take that course.?

and i thought unis were for inovative learning, seems like they are drone factories for corporations now.

[FrankVdb]

I don't think Vixta has been mentioned yet. Haven't tried it, I only know it's made off Fedora:

http://vixta.sourceforge.net/

I'm a bit puzzled as to why people should want to have Linux with a Windows look but this clearly shows that Linux is about CHOICE.

:guitar:

[Chame_Wizard]

I don't want that Gu/Linux become Windows,because that sucks a lot.I use Kubuntu for 10 Months now,only had a few problems(GRUB,freezing screen,kernel panic,difficulty with some commands)

But The thing is: it's a lot easier to do/learn things.Since last month(cause i have to upgrade to 7.10),I only use 5% of my time Windows(games) .

I AM NOT a GENIUS myself ,just the above average geek.Funny actually that i don't need "drivers" to install,only some necessary packages to let it work:lolflag:

[heartburnkid]

I help people who are beginners with computers. They barely know how to close a window. It's only in the last year or so the GUI has become genuinely usable in Ubuntu. The intuitive name for it is "add/remove programs". If I told them to use "Synaptic" they'd go to the Pharmacy.

Fortunately, if you click on your Programs menu in Ubuntu, at the bottom you will see an option that says Add/Remove. If you click this, guess where it takes you? Synaptic. Can you get much more intuitive than that?


People have other things to do than learn computers, particularly if they already started learning a different OS. If an OS is not intuitive to such a vast number of users, it WILL remain fringe.

THE MARKET ISN'T BEGINNERS, IT'S PEOPLE WHO HAVE STARTED WITH WINDOWS.

And frankly, if they'd rather continue to use Windows than learn something new, IMHO, they can keep using Windows. you can make something as simple and intuitive as possible, people will still bitch. Ferchrissakes, I've been using Ubuntu for all of four days, and I'm already at the "average user" level with it. It's still WIMP (Windows, Icons, Menus, Pointers). It's not that hard. Sometimes I get lost; that's OK. I got lost when I first started using Windows too. Of course, when I started on Windows, I didn't have anybody spoonfeeding me and helping me through the rough spots like the fine bunch of this community.

Frankly, I think that, in UI terms at least, Ubuntu and the other distros should strive to remain distinct, and NOT look like a clone of Windows. Why? Frankly, there's the Uncanny Valley effect to consider. If Ubuntu/another Linux derivative looked and acted too much like Windows, then the bits that didn't act like Windows would stand out all the more -- and would be incredibly frustrating, since you'd expect to be able to solve the problems like you do in Windows. With it having a different look and feel, you know at a glance that this is not Windows, so you're not so quick to resort to those old methods and conclusions.

I'm not saying that perhaps there aren't some things that Windows does better, but any other OS would be best served not to mimic Windows too closely.

[aysiu]

Fortunately, if you click on your Programs menu in Ubuntu, at the bottom you will see an option that says Add/Remove. If you click this, guess where it takes you? Synaptic. Can you get much more intuitive than that? Just a small nitpick: Add/Remove is actually a program called gnome-app-install. When you click on the Advanced button, it'll switch to become synaptic. The two applications (gnome-app-install and synaptic) are frontends for the same process (dpkg or APT), but they are not the same program.

[heartburnkid]

Heh, OK, I'm sorry. Like I said, I've only been using Ubuntu for four days.

My point still stands, though; you can get to a simple, intuitive installer/uninstaller in a simple, intuitive way.

[Chame_Wizard]

Synaptic/Adept Manager are easier than stupid software remover in Windows.:guitar: