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PetePete
May 7th, 2007, 09:31 AM
"By Sam Varghese
Monday, 07 May 2007

The cynic in me is delighted to learn today that Michael Dell didn't exactly have stars in his eyes when he advanced his grand plan to load Ubuntu on some Dell PCs and laptops.


And to think that the Linux community at large was overjoyed at this move! There is no bigger bunch of suckers around.

Dell, the man that is, was merely providing himself with a figleaf, albeit something much smaller than the one Naomi Watts used to cover her vital parts in We Don't Live Here Anymore.

Plans are now said to be afoot for Dell to dip its toes into the Microsoft-Novell axis; in truth, this axis needed a third member to meet the requirements of the definition set out by old man Dubya some years ago.

Dell is set to reveal that it will distribute Novell's SUSE Linux enterprise server along with Windows Server, the Boston Globe has reported.

The Globe quotes Rick Becker, vice president of solutions at Dell, as saying that the company would provide the engineers who would actually put these solutions (that's the word they always use) together. It's always a solution - even though there was no problem to solve.

It's now clear why Dell decided to sell Ubuntu on some machines; I'd like to see the people who lauded this move, now come out and criticise Dell for snuggling up to Novell. They have no foot on which to stand.

At the other end of the spectrum there was one conspiracy theorist who had postulated that Microsoft had put Dell up to the Ubuntu move; the way this theory ran, Dell would make a half-assed effort to sell Ubuntu boxes, the whole effort would fail and then nobody would have any more reason to complain about big hardware vendors not trying to push Linux.

It is clear now that this snuggling up to Novell is the quid pro quo which Microsoft wanted - else how could Dell ever think it could cut what are more or less umbilical ties?

There's a big lesson in this for a lot of people. I hope they will learn it and learn it well."

Source: http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/11896/1090


What does everyone think about this article?

rai4shu2
May 7th, 2007, 09:37 AM
Dude, you're gettin' a SLES? Doesn't quite have the same ring as Dude, you're getting Ubuntu.

Tomosaur
May 7th, 2007, 09:41 AM
Bad news, IMO. I think it's particularly sneaky - Microsoft now has some method of identifying Linux users (ie - those who buy Ubuntu machines), and saying:

"Hey, Ubuntu isn't part of our pact, we're going to sue you.".

Unless, of course, Canonical/Ubuntu decide to join the agreement too,....

Tux Aubrey
May 7th, 2007, 09:55 AM
I usually like conspiracy theories but this just smacks of long-bowism.

And why would MS have access to Ubuntu users' details? Dell has long sold linux on servers and the MS/Novell deal doesn't and can't relate to other areas of their business. If Dell did sign some sort of patents deal with MS, they would loose half their potential Ubuntu buyers anyway - they have been quite open about going for a slice of the (relatively small) "enthusiast" market and that's the very segment that has been so down on the Novell deal.

I vote this article as crock of the week.:---)

use a name
May 7th, 2007, 09:59 AM
Not one single 'paragraph' which makes sense.

Arathorn
May 7th, 2007, 09:59 AM
Microsoft will love this infighting. The reason Bug #1 will never be solved isn't Microsoft's monopoly, but the thousands of Linux distributions and their fanboys who begrudge the light in each other's eyes.

BoyOfDestiny
May 7th, 2007, 10:14 AM
I usually like conspiracy theories but this just smacks of long-bowism.

And why would MS have access to Ubuntu users' details? Dell has long sold linux on servers and the MS/Novell deal doesn't and can't relate to other areas of their business. If Dell did sign some sort of patents deal with MS, they would loose half their potential Ubuntu buyers anyway - they have been quite open about going for a slice of the (relatively small) "enthusiast" market and that's the very segment that has been so down on the Novell deal.

I vote this article as crock of the week.:---)

I agree.

We're (my family) are likely to still pick a new dell laptop. I wouldn't touch suse to be honest. But, if these machines sell, and other distributors give it a chance, GNU/Linux will have a foothold.

Either way, it'll be nice to have more compatible hardware out there (perhaps even marked, I've seen it but it's still rare in my opinion) and at least people to hear about Linux.

Some people think it's either Windows or Mac. I know it's not for everyone. But if you have a machine that works out of the box, pre setup, loads of software at their fingertips with add/remove. You can just use the machine. No costly upgrades, no defraging, no scanning for spyware (if they stick to the repos this is essentially a sure thing)

So big deal with MS and it's patent fud. Doesn't effect the whole globe. Not to mention a lot of companies benefit from Linux, IBM and others have a good sized patent portfolio... Worst case they all strike deals, but I don't think it will happen.

bikeboy
May 7th, 2007, 10:22 AM
Microsoft will love this infighting. The reason Bug #1 will never be solved isn't Microsoft's monopoly, but the thousands of Linux distributions and their fanboys who begrudge the light in each other's eyes.

The infighting has always been there. Yet GNU/Linux continues to improve far ahead of the pace of its competitors, continues to innovate and continues to share its solutions and advances with those they are arguing with.

So no, I don't buy your assertion that debate and choice is holding us back. It would be nice if there was a little less choice and a little more pooling of resources, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter if there's 1 distro or 10000, they are all essentially contributing to the one piece of software, since the code is shared.

ssam
May 7th, 2007, 10:58 AM
if dell are in the hands of microsoft why are they selling linux at all? and even more why are they selling ubuntu?

If microsoft try to sue ubuntu users we get protected by the openinventionnetwork (http://www.openinventionnetwork.com/).

If you want more protection you help build up opensource legal resources by donating to the EFF (http://www.eff.org/), FSF (http://www.fsf.org/), orORG (http://www.openrightsgroup.org/). I am sure people can suggest more places.

Arathorn
May 7th, 2007, 11:11 AM
The infighting has always been there. Yet GNU/Linux continues to improve far ahead of the pace of its competitors, continues to innovate and continues to share its solutions and advances with those they are arguing with.

So no, I don't buy your assertion that debate and choice is holding us back. It would be nice if there was a little less choice and a little more pooling of resources, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter if there's 1 distro or 10000, they are all essentially contributing to the one piece of software, since the code is shared.
I'm not complaining about debate or choices. Debate and choices are good. But there are too many people like the OP that simply hate another distro for no good reason. That's no debating, that's silly, and it won't help Linux.

Tomosaur
May 7th, 2007, 11:16 AM
I suppose in a way - Dell may actually have the upper hand here. If Dell is sincere in it's desire to push Linux as a viable alternative to Windows - then their deal with Microsoft would protect Dell from Microsoft's revenge, without encroaching on the rights of Dell's customers to enjoy Ubuntu. If anything, we should back Dell more, and make it clear that while many of us dislike the MS/Novell (and now Dell) pact, we're willing to support Dell's adoption of Linux, so long as they don't allow Microsoft to push Dell around and thwart desktop Linux by underhand means.

KiwiNZ
May 7th, 2007, 11:18 AM
"By

What does everyone think about this article?

Rubbish

No facts , nothing is substantiated, its pure unprofessional rubbish.

BoyOfDestiny
May 7th, 2007, 11:46 AM
I suppose in a way - Dell may actually have the upper hand here. If Dell is sincere in it's desire to push Linux as a viable alternative to Windows - then their deal with Microsoft would protect Dell from Microsoft's revenge, without encroaching on the rights of Dell's customers to enjoy Ubuntu. If anything, we should back Dell more, and make it clear that while many of us dislike the MS/Novell (and now Dell) pact, we're willing to support Dell's adoption of Linux, so long as they don't allow Microsoft to push Dell around and thwart desktop Linux by underhand means.

I've got to go along with that sentiment.

The thing that is especially weird about this article is: Guess what Dell is working with MS see ha!
Yet... Dell has been selling machines with XP/Vista on them. What a revelation...

Anyway, if offering linux for regular users (not just server and business machines) works for Dell, it may work for others. That's what I'm hoping to see. If you don't like Ubuntu or what have you, pop in your favorite distro, if the hardware works with Ubuntu it's likely your box will "just work".

slayerboy
May 7th, 2007, 11:51 AM
http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=media&storyID=nN07262266

This seems legit to me.....

I'm not liking this. Not ONE bit.

If this means that Ubuntu is next in line to deal with MS, I'm done with Linux. It's not worth it anymore. I've had more experience with Windows than Linux, and I rather like get my OS for free and dealing with bugs isn't as bad when it's free vs $300. But there's no sense. THis will ultimately kill Linux as a "mainstream" OS.

Anyone who used/use Vista recognize how IDENTICAL it looks to KDE???? Any coincidence there? I think not.

I'll stick to my OSS software, but OS-wise, I'll go back to Windows if Ubuntu sides with MS. Call me stupid, cynical, insane, etc, etc, etc. In all honesty, looking at both OS's if they both have MS involved, I would chose Windows because it has MUCH more support for hardware, games, software installation from ANYWHERE (not just a resource that you need to install from or risk breaking your system).

I was one to darn Vista before it came out, but it seems like a step in the right direction, trying to be as unbiased as I can be. I really hope for everyone's sake Ubuntu does not side with MS. But when I look back at Mark's blog detailing what he wants in Gutsy, something seems more and more fishy there.

frogotronic
May 7th, 2007, 11:51 AM
Ha!

If DELL was serious about LINUX the first time around, then my DSDT tables & BIOS wouldn't be screwy on this 5 year old Inspiron 8100 and HIBERNATE would actually work, without hours of hacking.

Just another reason for me buy a SYSTEM76 machine.

- CH

Tux Aubrey
May 7th, 2007, 12:31 PM
Boy, what a paranoid bunch we are!

I wouldn't call anyone ..."stupid, cynical, insane, etc, etc, etc..." but I think several people may be needing a good hit of chamomile tea right now.

I've seen nothing in any of this that has anything to do with non-corporate users or Canonical or Ubuntu. Talk about reading between the lines. This all looks like fairly rational business manoeuvring to me - these companies have to work in the real world where MS has some major legal and financial (not to mention less savoury) tactics at its disposal.

And if Dell was actually trying to scuttle Linux on the desktop, wouldn't they have chosen a distro that had a much more monocultural geek user base and that didn't actually work so well unless you had five years post-grad engineering experience? Something like ....., but let's not go there.

mech7
May 7th, 2007, 12:34 PM
agreed to much conspiracy theories about ms.. i wonder if the people who make these things up are the ones with silver foil wrapped around their head afraid that ms is picking up their brainwaves :lolflag:

ComplexNumber
May 7th, 2007, 12:36 PM
Boy, what a paranoid bunch we are!

I wouldn't call anyone ..."stupid, cynical, insane, etc, etc, etc..." but I think several people may be needing a good hit of chamomile tea right now.

I've seen nothing in any of this that has anything to do with non-corporate users or Canonical or Ubuntu. Talk about reading between the lines. This all looks like fairly rational business manoeuvring to me - these companies have to work in the real world where MS has some major legal and financial (not to mention less savoury) tactics at its disposal.

And if Dell was actually trying to scuttle Linux on the desktop, wouldn't they have chosen a distro that had a much more monocultural geek user base and that didn't actually work so well unless you had five years post-grad engineering experience? Something like ....., but let's not go there.
thats what i was thinking. although i entertain some viable conspiracy theories, this one just doesn't hold any water. they would have used some distro such as gentoo or slackware or something (note: not to knock either of those distros or anything. they're great distros, but they're not for the average joe).

deathbyswiftwind
May 7th, 2007, 12:49 PM
I agree. I think alot of people forget how Microsoft is just like any other business. The number one rule in business is to beat your competion. When alot of people go shopping they see a sale and are like "awesome". But why are they having that sale? To get you to shop there instead of going to "the other guys". If ubuntu were to go the microsoft way like suse (which I dont actually see happening) then I will just move onto debian.

Another thing is I really think there are too many distros. Choice is great but when things arent being combined into the whole then whats the point sometimes ya know?

I just hope dell is successful. The more linux users we have the better stance we have with hardware/software makers. Its like the circle of life. more users = better support = more users = better support.

Eddie Wilson
May 7th, 2007, 01:46 PM
Is this the way that MS will destroy linux? NOT! Standard FUD and by the way for those who thinks that MS will sue all linux users, I don't believe they have the resoures or even a reason to do so. There are too many of us.
Thanks,
Eddie

forrestcupp
May 7th, 2007, 01:59 PM
Here is some of the evidence against the original article:

1. Michael Dell personally uses Ubuntu. Why would he want to screw it up?

2. The reason Dell is offering Ubuntu desktops/laptops is because a lot of people voted that they wanted Linux preinstalled on home computers. Then when Dell did a study on distros, they found that most of the people that voted for it came back and said they wanted Ubuntu. Dell didn't scheme this.

Who cares if they use Novell for their server computers? Maybe they genuinely think that Novell is a good option.

DoctorMO
May 7th, 2007, 01:59 PM
I don't know what kind of tea your drinking guys but seriously I'm normally the crazy, cynical bursturd but you have be beat with this:


If this means that Ubuntu is next in line to deal with MS, I'm done with Linux. It's not worth it anymore. I've had more experience with Windows than Linux, and I rather like get my OS for free and dealing with bugs isn't as bad when it's free vs $300. But there's no sense. THis will ultimately kill Linux as a "mainstream" OS.

I mean this is crazy, doesn't even make sense. I think there are just a few too many people who are using ubuntu and have a gremlin in the back of their minds going 'It's too good to be true, there must be something wrong, someone will find out I've been using this software without paying and then the smit will hit the fan'

But no really it's free! it'll always be free and the EFF, FSF and OIN will always make sure that it's free and people like Microsoft can not remove those freedoms that you have been granted. as for patents, well they should never have existed and it doesn't matter how many businesses manover themselves it means very little in the floss world.

Extreme Coder
May 7th, 2007, 02:03 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but I don't get what this has to do with Ubuntu/Desktop Linux users? I'm probably very stupid :D

Extreme Coder

samjh
May 7th, 2007, 02:35 PM
That article in the original post has leaps of logic so gigantic that even Neil Armstrong wouldn't attempt them.

So... Dell sells Novel's SUSE alongside MS Windows Server for its servers. Big deal. SUSE is a good enterprise distro. Just because Novell signed a deal with MS, it doesn't make Novell or SUSE eveil. Novell's agreement with MS is also no admission to any patent liability, either. There is another massive leap of logic that goes beyond moon's orbit.

And just what does Dell's selling of Ubuntu have to do with them selling SUSE, or even MS Windows Server? Absolutely nothing.

DoctorMO
May 7th, 2007, 04:17 PM
There is another massive leap of logic that goes beyond moon's orbit.

If you thought that leap was moon orbit what orbit is the idea that Ubuntu will sign a deal with Microsoft because of the Dell deal with Novell. This is like a leap into the next black hole.

mybunche
May 7th, 2007, 04:37 PM
Yes, this does leave a bad taste when you first read it. But after a few minutes reality sets in and you realize that Dell is a company to make money. This is a business decision, although quite possibly influenced by MS.

MS is a corporation with the power and proven willingness to dictate, threaten, and instill fear to any potential competitor. The more powerful the corporation the more effective dirty and illegal tactics it can deploy. It has the capacity to bring down Dell if it's in Microsofts best interest and as a lesson to others. Dell knows this.

Mark will never sign a deal with MS, it goes against his beliefs and the very reason that Ubuntu exists. So don't worry about this.

As for the patents, MS won't sue anyone. It doesn't have to. All MS has to do is to put fear and doubt in you/company and expect you to bow down. And unfortunately some do, which tend to encourage others as well. And, MS knows this.

Please separate the Ubuntu and the Novell/Microsoft deal with Dell. Enjoy Ubuntu and don't let this sour the Dell/Ubuntu deal for you.

Don't let MS put fear and doubt in you too. Remember, MS is the one who is very afraid of you, that's why they are fighting, and will fight dirty.

deanlinkous
May 7th, 2007, 05:16 PM
Imagine the case study (bought and paid for) in a year that shows how strong sales of Micro-Suse beat out Ubuntu and why Dell has chosen to drop Ubuntu. Micro-Suse wins another feather for their cap while advancing the world domination scheme and selling *legal* linux to everyone.

deanlinkous
May 7th, 2007, 05:22 PM
Dell Inc. has agreed to work with Microsoft Corp. and Novell Inc. under an alliance the rival software makers formed last year to make it easier for the Windows operating system and the increasingly popular Linux system to work together, the companies said Sunday.

Under the partnership announced in November, Microsoft said it would offer corporate customers a chance to license its Windows operating system as part of a package that includes maintenance and support for Novell's Suse Linux platform.

On Sunday, Microsoft and Novell said Dell has agreed to buy Suse Linux Enterprise Server certificates from Microsoft and that the computer maker will set up a services and marketing program aimed at getting users of open-source platforms to switch to the new Suse Linux offering.

"Dell is the first major systems provider to align with Microsoft and Novell in this collaboration, and we intend to lead in this space," Rick Becker, a vice president in Dell's product group, said in a statement.

READ MORE FROM BUSINESSWEEK (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8OVALQ80.htm)

Wiebelhaus
May 7th, 2007, 05:24 PM
hell yea...

DoctorMO
May 7th, 2007, 06:44 PM
Imagine the case study (bought and paid for) in a year that shows how strong sales of Micro-Suse beat out Ubuntu and why Dell has chosen to drop Ubuntu. Micro-Suse wins another feather for their cap while advancing the world domination scheme and selling *legal* linux to everyone.

Crock of bovine brown.

K.Mandla
May 7th, 2007, 06:56 PM
I have to be a little suspicious of any "news" that includes the phrase "Plans are now said to be afoot." Sometimes it's just a little too easy to play journalist. :|

motin
May 7th, 2007, 09:29 PM
Boy, what a paranoid bunch we are!

I wouldn't call anyone ..."stupid, cynical, insane, etc, etc, etc..." but I think several people may be needing a good hit of chamomile tea right now.

I've seen nothing in any of this that has anything to do with non-corporate users or Canonical or Ubuntu. Talk about reading between the lines. This all looks like fairly rational business manoeuvring to me - these companies have to work in the real world where MS has some major legal and financial (not to mention less savoury) tactics at its disposal.

And if Dell was actually trying to scuttle Linux on the desktop, wouldn't they have chosen a distro that had a much more monocultural geek user base and that didn't actually work so well unless you had five years post-grad engineering experience? Something like ....., but let's not go there.


thats what i was thinking. although i entertain some viable conspiracy theories, this one just doesn't hold any water. they would have used some distro such as gentoo or slackware or something (note: not to knock either of those distros or anything. they're great distros, but they're not for the average joe).


Here is some of the evidence against the original article:

1. Michael Dell personally uses Ubuntu. Why would he want to screw it up?

2. The reason Dell is offering Ubuntu desktops/laptops is because a lot of people voted that they wanted Linux preinstalled on home computers. Then when Dell did a study on distros, they found that most of the people that voted for it came back and said they wanted Ubuntu. Dell didn't scheme this.

Who cares if they use Novell for their server computers? Maybe they genuinely think that Novell is a good option.

Agreeing whole heartedly to the above replies. The article in the OP is rubbish.

Couldn't it simply be so that Ubuntu is a great Desktop distribution but not no 1 server-side? In contrast, SLES will be among the first servers to have greater compatibility with existing Windows based systems and thus be more easy to integrate in those systems = easier to break 100% Windows-based systems.

Old Pink
May 7th, 2007, 09:58 PM
More: http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=tnBusinessNews&storyID=2007-05-07T073732Z_01_N07262266_RTRIDST_0_BUSINESS-MICROSOFT-NOVELL-DELL-DC.XML

Linux applications to run on Windows... what a shame, I can't believe Novell agreed to this.

K.Mandla
May 7th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Under the latest agreement, Dell will purchase Suse Linux Enterprise Server certificates, Microsoft said.
What's this certificate stuff?

justin whitaker
May 7th, 2007, 10:10 PM
This is the part of the Linux Community that gives Linux Users a bad name: the conspiracy theorists. I'm sure there will be 10000 links in 1000000 blogs about how bad this is for Linux as a whole, and how the man is trying to put us down, blah, blah, blah...

What is readily apparent to me is that Microsoft does not have the monopoly on FUD, the only thing is, theirs is of better quality. Just because some wannabe journalist throws some anti-Microsoft screed out there, we are supposed to take notice of it, and line up behind it?

I really wish people would ditch the hypersensitivity and hyperbole. openSUSE is the backbone for Novell Linux, and the people that create and support it are "good people". They believe in Linux. Novell has figured out a way to stay in business, and answered many enterprise customers concerns when partnering with Microsoft: while the question is open, even if it is FUD, they have effectively indemnified their clients. That makes Novell Solutions very attractive to a business looking for a Linux solution. There is no Evil Axis.

At least Microsoft appeals to your sense of reason, and if does not work, they make an understandable and coherent threat. This is so illogical, it beggars reason.

The desktop and the server are different animals, as far as Dell is concerned. They are completely separate businesses. What Dell wants is to keep selling Dell hardware to their customers, and if they are going to Novell for servers, then Dell wants to be the hardware it runs on.

And Dell gets to play both sides: the tried and true Microsoft partner, and Linux's new best buddy.

All in all, it makes perfect sense business wise, and each Novell install is one less Windows install.

A little less histrionics, a little more thought, needs to be put into Linux "journalism" before we can even call it that.

justin whitaker
May 7th, 2007, 10:12 PM
What's this certificate stuff?

Novell signed a deal which indemifies Novel Linux customers from any wrongdoing if Microsoft decides to assert their IP rights against Linux. The certificates basically hold the Enterprise Client free of any wrongdoing...if there ever was any wrongdoing....it's all very murky, but makes sense in Microsoft land.

use a name
May 7th, 2007, 10:19 PM
More: http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=tnBusinessNews&storyID=2007-05-07T073732Z_01_N07262266_RTRIDST_0_BUSINESS-MICROSOFT-NOVELL-DELL-DC.XML

Linux applications to run on Windows... what a shame, I can't believe Novell agreed to this.

Work with, as in interoperability. ;)

jiminycricket
May 7th, 2007, 10:21 PM
Microsoft will love this infighting. The reason Bug #1 will never be solved isn't Microsoft's monopoly, but the thousands of Linux distributions and their fanboys who begrudge the light in each other's eyes.

GPLv3 ftw :) This is a temporary problem.

pkarlos_76
May 7th, 2007, 10:36 PM
Dell Inc. has agreed to work with Microsoft Corp. and Novell Inc. under an alliance the rival software makers formed last year to make it easier for the Windows operating system and the increasingly popular Linux system to work together, the companies said Sunday.

Under the partnership announced in November, Microsoft said it would offer corporate customers a chance to license its Windows operating system as part of a package that includes maintenance and support for Novell's Suse Linux platform.

On Sunday, Microsoft and Novell said Dell has agreed to buy Suse Linux Enterprise Server certificates from Microsoft and that the computer maker will set up a services and marketing program aimed at getting users of open-source platforms to switch to the new Suse Linux offering.

You can voice your opinion to Dell at http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/67008/Dont_imply_Microsoft_IP_in_Linux

blackspyder
May 7th, 2007, 11:12 PM
Wow, hold me Dell is going to use SUSE Enterprise server on some corporate servers. Sorry cant see how this will impact the Dell/Ubuntu packages. We already know that Novell is jealous over not being chosen for the Linux on Dell project. This is just another business deal offering a different sever OS for IT people who dont like the MS version offered to them. Nothing More, Nothing Less.

JAPrufrock
May 7th, 2007, 11:31 PM
Not one single 'paragraph' which makes sense.

I agree.

loserboy
May 7th, 2007, 11:35 PM
more like badmouthing linux to get it's users to switch to ms, at least thats what it sounds like to me

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 11:40 PM
I've merged these two threads.

FuturePilot
May 7th, 2007, 11:42 PM
At the other end of the spectrum there was one conspiracy theorist who had postulated that Microsoft had put Dell up to the Ubuntu move; the way this theory ran, Dell would make a half-assed effort to sell Ubuntu boxes, the whole effort would fail and then nobody would have any more reason to complain about big hardware vendors not trying to push Linux.


Hmmm, very interesting. The weird thing is that exact thought crossed my mind. The thought that if this for some reason failed, then everyone would say Linux isn't ready for the desktop and then there would be no more push to get Linux preinstalled on computers and then we all find ourselves in a deep hole and fixing Bug #1 even further out of reach. I don't like this:-|

deanlinkous
May 7th, 2007, 11:51 PM
Microsoft said it has issued more than 40,000 Suse Linux Enterprise Server certificates to companies including Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Deutsche Bank AG and Credit Suisse since it formed its pact with Novell.
That is a interesting number. Wonder if dell is hoping to tap that....and more....

aysiu
May 7th, 2007, 11:53 PM
Merged again.

sloggerkhan
May 7th, 2007, 11:54 PM
I wonder if this will make people think twice before getting an Ubuntu system from Dell.
Probably...

deanlinkous
May 8th, 2007, 02:27 AM
READ MORE FROM BUSINESSWEEK (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8OVALQ80.htm)
That IS a interesting article...considering it is businessWeek!

LookTJ
May 8th, 2007, 04:03 AM
This pact isn't about ubuntu or other desktop distros. it's about M$ and Novell making a server distro. Dell is just in this pact to make money.

jiminycricket
May 8th, 2007, 10:14 AM
Interesting article here (http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/11921/1090/1/0/):


With one stroke, Microsoft has reasserted its number one position as deal maker and decision maker in the computer industry, reminding all wannabes that they are just that - wannabes.

Yesterday's announcement that Dell would be joining the Microsoft-Novell pact is proof positive that Microsoft is playing the same game it always has - extend, embrace and then extinguish.

Notice that Dell wasn't exactly prominent in the announcement of the deal - most of the talking was done by Microsoft, in itself a reminder that whether you are a big player or not in the tech industry, you had better do as the boys in Redmond say. No getting too much out of line.
...
The announcement has also put one Mark Shuttleworth properly in his place.
...

I think this is very true since Canonical's ultimate goal seemed to be to get into servers. At least with Dell that option appears to be gone. I wonder if they knew about the Novell-Dell deal? Otherwise it must feel a bit stinging, esp. after all the PR with Michael Dell using Ubuntu on his laptop. I don't understand why companies always have to make deals with the monopoly's best interest in mind.

I think his last paragraph is a little flawed though, because Ubuntu is all about the relationship with Debian and upstream. It's really Novell who is subverting that ability with their patent deal.

To reinforce this, an article (http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/hardware/soa/Dell-picks-Ubuntu-for-Linux-PCs/0,130061702,339275190,00.htm)when news of Dellbuntu was released:

The company is starting its business by trying to appeal to users of desktop computers. From there, Canonical Chief Executive Mark Shuttleworth has said, the company plans to head to the server market, where the real Linux bread and butter can be found.

slayerboy
May 8th, 2007, 10:36 AM
I think this is very true since Canonical's ultimate goal seemed to be to get into servers. At least with Dell that option appears to be gone. I wonder if they knew about the Novell-Dell deal? Otherwise it must feel a bit stinging, esp. after all the PR with Michael Dell using Ubuntu on his laptop. I don't understand why companies always have to make deals with the monopoly's best interest in mind.

This is what I have been thinking all along. Yes, I'm cynical, that's how I've always been. I might be a bit insane, again that's how i've always been. My reasoning behind my way of thinking is that money talks, everything else walks. If you don't think Mark would willingly sell his precious Canonical company to MS if the offer was right, you're giving him too much credit. This is, after all, the same man who sold Thawte for a huge chunk of change, which is what helped him found Canonical.

The timing is too perfect.

The ONLY way I can see that this is no coincidence is a lack of communication between Canonical and Dell. With Canonical getting their foot in the door of Dell on the personal computer market, I would hope Dell had the smarts enough to see why and realize a possible server deal with Canonical if the personal market went well. Granted, the two markets are different, but both RH and Novell are proving this to not be the case, as they base their server editions off of a majority of the desktop versions of their OS.

Now, that's not to say that Dell is going ot let MS shove them around. They could still be looking to possibly offer servers with Ubuntu at a later time and only went with SLED/MS to offer more options.

Anything is possible. I do know, that if my gut instinct is right, Canonical may very well announce something of a deal with MS when Gutsy is released, or at the latest Gutsy +1 (which I beleive is the next LTS).

As to the post about there being too many distros of Linux, I wholeheartedly agree, but I think we need to leave this to survival of the fittest. The problem is as the old saying goes, there can be too many cooks in the kitchen. I think we're reaching that point with 300+ distros or variations of Linux out there listed on Distrowatch.

And yes, you can call me cynical, insane, stupid, etc, etc. I subscribe to the school of common sense, and looking at things from a distance, common sense tells me that MS+Canonical is not as far fetched as what everyone thinks.

Adamant1988
May 8th, 2007, 11:36 AM
Bad news, IMO. I think it's particularly sneaky - Microsoft now has some method of identifying Linux users (ie - those who buy Ubuntu machines), and saying:

"Hey, Ubuntu isn't part of our pact, we're going to sue you.".

Unless, of course, Canonical/Ubuntu decide to join the agreement too,....

It's my understanding that Ubuntu has 'Intellectual Property' protection via another organization. I'll find a link to back that if you'd like me to. This is really paranoid of you, really. Speaking of the deal, SLES is a very solid server product, and I have no issue with what DELL is doing.

ljpm
May 8th, 2007, 01:17 PM
It's my understanding that Ubuntu has 'Intellectual Property' protection via another organization. I'll find a link to back that if you'd like me to.

Not possible. A Patent gives the owner the right to exclude others from practicing their invention. Therefore, only Microsoft can offer protection. Another organization may offer assistance in defending against a law suit but only Microsoft (the owner of the patent) has the right to choose who they will sue. On the plus side, most of the world does not allow patents on software and therefore Microsoft can only file suit on people who use the software in the US (and a few other countries that allow software patents).

jiminycricket
May 8th, 2007, 01:43 PM
The 'IP' (I like those quotations :)) protection with Linux has to be GPL compatible though, and Novell clearly tries to skirt that issue.

BTW IMO, if people who were going to buy Dellbuntu now decide not to because of SuSE, that's damaging to Ubuntu and free software-- what's more of a statement, people buying Ubuntu in spite of it lacking MS 'IP' protection, or people not buying Dell at all when they're finally giving Linux (two distros, no less) on the desktop (and SLES on server) again?

More oddness, Dell said they wre looking at Ubuntu "across product lines" (pp) on May 03, 2007. Perhaps they still will be in the future if SLES doesn't go well (I think it's a great product, but the patent protection is a big problem)

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39286942,00.htm


Separately, Dell hinted that it might extend its use of Ubuntu beyond the desktop and into its server portfolio. Spokesman Kent Cook said: "We're looking at Linux across the breadth of our product line. It takes a bit longer sometimes on that side. Stay tuned."

feign
May 8th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Am I missing the point...


From the Newsweek article:
"On Sunday, Microsoft and Novell said Dell has agreed to buy Suse Linux Enterprise Server certificates from Microsoft and that the computer maker will set up a services and marketing program aimed at getting users of open-source platforms to switch to the new Suse Linux offering."

So...Dell is going to sell Ubuntu because their customers asked for it. Dell, however is going to try to sell you Suse Linux Enterprise Server for your servers.

It seems to me, that for now, Dell has made a business decision about what they will offer their customers on the server end of things for a Linux solution, but the desktop is still open.

As always, choice is a good thing...

Sunflower1970
May 8th, 2007, 02:33 PM
Here's a question, what has Dell been offering on their servers already? Suse? Red Hat?

I thought they were already offering Suse, so this almost seems like a non issue to me.

Although I was disappointed after the big announcement with Dell & Ubuntu that Dell made a deal with Microsoft/Novell. My only annoyance is the timing of the whole thing. MS has done it again. Taken away the limelight from Ubuntu on another big announcement. I think they must see Ubuntu as more of a threat if they keep trying to overshadow these announcements.

jiminycricket
May 8th, 2007, 02:42 PM
Although I was disappointed after the big announcement with Dell & Ubuntu that Dell made a deal with Microsoft/Novell. My only annoyance is the timing of the whole thing. MS has done it again. Taken away the limelight from Ubuntu on another big announcement. I think they must see Ubuntu as more of a threat if they keep trying to overshadow these announcements.

I once read that a Microsoft employee commented to Ian Murdock that their biggest fear was a Debian that was financed or time-released somehow. It was something like that, I'll try to find the blog that paraphrased it.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=272 This isn't the blog but it recounts the meeting somewhat.

It was either there or when Mark Shuttleworth commented on being at Microsoft's campus.

a50sn95
May 8th, 2007, 10:20 PM
They have joined Novell in the Microsoft deal. Does this mean they they are admitting that Linux users DO owe M$ money for IP ?

http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=8771&pagtype=all (http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?newsID=8771&pagtype=all)

Brunellus
May 8th, 2007, 10:27 PM
No. They are offering SLED on servers to those customers who want it.

I don't think that there is any admission of anything here. Further, MSFT has been making threats, but has thus far failed to make good on *any* of its IP claims. Either they are waiting for an opportunity, or they are afraid to have their claims refuted--or in the worst case, their patents invalidated.

That last case--patent invalidation--is of particular concern to MSFT, since the recent decisions in KSR v. Teleflex and AT&T v. Microsoft make it much easier to invalidate U.S. patents.

djchandler
May 9th, 2007, 06:33 AM
This is important. Please go to my blog at http://djchandler.wordpress.com for all the details. But here's basically what's going on.

After Dell reached an agreement with Canonica]to sell new computers with Ubuntu 7.04 as an optional operating system, it looks as though Microsoft is doing its best to undermine the whole deal. There are links on my blog to articles on ZDNet that cover the press release of May 1 announcing the agreement between Canonical and Dell as well as links to the Microsoft announcement of May 7, 2007 that Dell has joined Microsoft and Novell in providing services to allow Suse Linux and Microsoft products to work together. It looks as if Dell may be backing out of the deal with Canonical. The Ubuntu community should be outraged by this and demand that Dell explain this latest development.

Go to my blog @ http://djchandler.wordpress.com for the link to Dell's community outreach and feedback website.

Lucifiel
May 9th, 2007, 06:36 AM
Huh?

Didn't someone post a similiar thread about this already?

Again, this is the real world and Dell has to co-operate with Microsoft on one level or another, you know. They just don't have the kind of power to knock MS off its' feet. :p

Edit: Besides which, it'd be really counterproductive for them to invest all that money into that Canonical and then blow it away.

gradedcheese
May 9th, 2007, 06:39 AM
I don't want to go to your blog, sorry. But I will mention that the randomly hilighting and linking things is really a fad that has passed a long time ago. Unless you're writing celebrity gossip columns for the local paper, anyway.

karellen
May 9th, 2007, 06:40 AM
This is important. Please go to my blog at http://djchandler.wordpress.com for all the details. But here's basically what's going on.

After Dell reached an agreement with Canonical to sell new computers with Ubuntu 7.04as an optional operating system, it looks as though Microsoft is doing its best to undermine the whole deal. There are links on my blog to articles on ZDNet that cover the press release of May 1 announcing the agreement between Canonical and Dell as well as links to the Microsoft announcement of May 7, 2007 that Dell has joined Microsoft and Novell in providing services to allow Suze Linux and Microsoft products to work together. It looks as if Dell may be backing out of the deal with Canonical. The Ubuntu community should be outraged by this and demand that Dell explain this latest development.

Go to my blog @ http://djchandler.wordpress.com for the link to Dell's community outreach and feedback website.

where do you live? it's called business. dell is a commercial enitity, not linux/ubuntu's advocate ;)

NeoLithium
May 9th, 2007, 06:42 AM
Ultimately it lays in the hands of their marketing department and of course Dell can back out; don't forget that Microsoft is a very large part of their corporation; which means they can't just go and kick them out the door or put them on the backburner. The sad truth is that they have a large amonunt of pull with companies that do custom building...

karellen
May 9th, 2007, 06:42 AM
This is important. Please go to my blog at http://djchandler.wordpress.com for all the details. But here's basically what's going on.

After Dell reached an agreement with Canonical to sell new computers with Ubuntu 7.04as an optional operating system, it looks as though Microsoft is doing its best to undermine the whole deal. There are links on my blog to articles on ZDNet that cover the press release of May 1 announcing the agreement between Canonical and Dell as well as links to the Microsoft announcement of May 7, 2007 that Dell has joined Microsoft and Novell in providing services to allow Suze Linux and Microsoft products to work together. It looks as if Dell may be backing out of the deal with Canonical. The Ubuntu community should be outraged by this and demand that Dell explain this latest development.

Go to my blog @ http://djchandler.wordpress.com for the link to Dell's community outreach and feedback website.


and make an effort to write correctly: it's opensuse/novell...not Suze :P. at least you wrote microsoft name ok

djchandler
May 9th, 2007, 06:46 AM
Gee, I guess I can't satisfy all the critics. Have you read the stories on ZDNet? At least make yourself informed.

MRiGnS
May 9th, 2007, 06:46 AM
It's Suse (Software- und System-Entwicklungsgesellschaft mbH, Nürnberg)

Dell was selling Suse even before Ubuntu was there. Joining the Dell/Novell deal is just business.

djchandler
May 9th, 2007, 06:53 AM
Isn't there such a thing as ethics? No matter where you live (I'm in the USA), your word should mean something.

karellen
May 9th, 2007, 07:01 AM
Isn't there such a thing as ethics? No matter where you live (I'm in the USA), your word should mean something.

I've read the zdnet stories. and all say the same thing. a business partnership. so what? it's normal. understand what dell, microsoft, novell are. companies that want to make money. that had to make money. I fail to see how is unethical regarding the linux community. besided it's nothing new. dell is in bed with microsoft for at least 10 years. and it was selling pc's with suse/sles/sled. so what's the "great" announcement? if you want to see only "dell&ubuntu news", I'm sorry, maybe this reality is not for your taste
;)

karellen
May 9th, 2007, 07:03 AM
Isn't there such a thing as ethics? No matter where you live (I'm in the USA), your word should mean something.

dell didn't take his word back. what do you want? to ship only pc's with ubuntu installed? this is no gonna happen, accept it

MRiGnS
May 9th, 2007, 07:04 AM
Isn't there such a thing as ethics? No matter where you live (I'm in the USA), your word should mean something.

why should your or our word mean something if it's a deal between MS/Dell/Novell or Dell/Canonical. It's not our business. This is how the business world works. I lol'd at "No matter where you live (I'm in the USA)"

homerhomer
May 9th, 2007, 07:05 AM
SUSE
(Sucky Unix System Environment)

:P

MRiGnS
May 9th, 2007, 07:10 AM
SUSE
(Sucky Unix System Environment)

:P

Keep in mind Suse/Novell are one of the greatest benefitors for the Linuxdesktops.

Providing software like evolution, beagle, compiz(beryl), xgl, gnome-main-menu, kickoff, network-manager; just to name a few.

djchandler
May 9th, 2007, 07:11 AM
And I believe Dell has a large stake in Redhat too, about 100 million dollars worth.
And BTW, this being my first post here, the first of you to respond aren't doing much to make me feel welcome. I had no idea you'd see my post before I got to proof the HTML. and, if you'd read the articles I'm referring to instead of flaming me, you might actually learn something. The level of arrogance here is off-putting to say the least. I would think the new users of Ubuntu, who are not necessarily novices when it comes to computers, would be made to feel a little more welcome. Can't we all just get along, or have every one of you missed the point of the OS being named as it is. Who here remembers what ubuntu means?

MRiGnS
May 9th, 2007, 07:15 AM
And I believe Dell has a large stake in Redhat too, about 100 million dollars worth.
And BTW, this being my first post here, the first of you to respond aren't doing much to make me feel welcome. I had no idea you'd see my post before I got to proof the HTML. and, if you'd read the articles I'm referring to instead of flaming me, you might actually learn something. The level of arrogance here is off-putting to say the least. I would think the new users of Ubuntu, who are not necessarily novices when it comes to computers, would be made to feel a little more welcome. Can't we all just get along, or have every one of you missed the point of the OS being named as it is. Who here remembers what ubuntu means?

I sure most of us have read the news. It's just another thread on this topic amongst the other 78567586585.

And I know that Ubuntu does not mean "not careing about rules, reading stickies or searching the forums if anyone already started a thread like this"

+ nobody flamed you. We told ypu our oppinion. I thought the thread was about that. Perhaps it's different where you live. (still laughing btw)

karellen
May 9th, 2007, 07:18 AM
And I believe Dell has a large stake in Redhat too, about 100 million dollars worth.
And BTW, this being my first post here, the first of you to respond aren't doing much to make me feel welcome. I had no idea you'd see my post before I got to proof the HTML. and, if you'd read the articles I'm referring to instead of flaming me, you might actually learn something. The level of arrogance here is off-putting to say the least. I would think the new users of Ubuntu, who are not necessarily novices when it comes to computers, would be made to feel a little more welcome. Can't we all just get along, or have every one of you missed the point of the OS being named as it is. Who here remembers what ubuntu means?

ok. wellcome
(I think that is a thread just for this....)

tbroderick
May 9th, 2007, 07:20 AM
And BTW, this being my first post here, the first of you to respond aren't doing much to make me feel welcome. I had no idea you'd see my post before I got to proof the HTML. and, if you'd read the articles I'm referring to instead of flaming me, you might actually learn something. The level of arrogance here is off-putting to say the least. I would think the new users of Ubuntu, who are not necessarily novices when it comes to computers, would be made to feel a little more welcome. Can't we all just get along, or have every one of you missed the point of the OS being named as it is. Who here remembers what ubuntu means?

First, stop pimping your blog and link to the original articles.
Second, Ubuntu and SLED have two different markets. One is aimed at the home user and the other at the business market. The Microsoft/Novell/Dell deal is good and bad. Good that companies will have piece of mind when buying Linux servers and workstations with SLED, bad because of Microsoft/Novell patent agreement. Microsoft/Novell/Dell's new agreement is really effects Dell's other Linux server partner Red Hat, which is in direct competition with Novell

stonerrob420
May 9th, 2007, 07:23 AM
I my opinion I think it is a good idea for dell to install ubuntu on custom built computers. In the long run it will help support better base of hardware drivers.......with any luck they might write a decent winmodem driver for their modems....plus it will make ubuntu better know in the world of open source operating systems....give people a different alternative to windows xp, vista etc. Plus I thinK it should be a very lucretive business venture for dell and canoncial. When the average windows user switches to ubuntu or any type of linux and experiences the awesome stability of the system, malware, and virus protection there is no other choice but to adapt and and turn their backs on microsoft. The deal will also make money for better research toward linux development.....linux is already lightyears ahead of windows...:)

djchandler
May 9th, 2007, 09:07 AM
Thanks for the first serious response to my thread.

steven8
May 9th, 2007, 09:09 AM
Thanks for the first serious response to my thread.

Translation: The first response that was like what you wanted to hear.

aysiu
May 9th, 2007, 09:59 AM
It seems we had a whole bunch of simultaneous threads on the same topic, so I've merged them.

djchandler
May 9th, 2007, 07:08 PM
I appreciate that the poll I authored was kept. As a newbie to this forum, though I've been using personal computers for over 25 years, I apparently violated the sensibilities of some of the other members here, and the thread I started was deteriorating in a disappointing manner. I do apologize for my blog links, but I'm having trouble typing due to a new and partially disabling condition and was just trying to save keystrokes. Unfortunately, using my computer at home may be my only resource for now. I get no revenue from my blog--I'm just trying to stay busy, and I believed I had something new and pertinent for the members of this forum. Things are slowly getting better, though, so you may only have to put up with my rants for a short while. Gainful employment is just around the corner. I just got an offer to do voice-overs for training videos.

Peace and regards,
D. J. Chandler

rai4shu2
May 9th, 2007, 07:11 PM
I don't think we need to worry about Dell's commitment to Ubuntu. They are a retailer, and as such, they need diversification.

lyceum
May 9th, 2007, 07:15 PM
I thought *everyone knew* that Dell would use Ubuntu, SuSE and one other, likly Red Hat? I was not supprized.

DJ_Max
May 9th, 2007, 08:39 PM
Keep in mind Suse/Novell are one of the greatest benefitors for the Linuxdesktops.

Providing software like evolution, beagle, compiz(beryl), xgl, gnome-main-menu, kickoff, network-manager; just to name a few.

Suse was around before Novell had anything to do with it. Even now, Novell and Suse aren't the same thing. These are products of Novell, not Suse.

djchandler
May 10th, 2007, 07:05 AM
I have always wondered if Microsoft's real motive intervening in Novell's business was to halt the port of Evolution to Windows. I had Evolution working in Windows at one time, but the port was nowhere near being complete. Took a little tweaking and did run, but overall just wasn't worth the trouble. Thunderbird is more reliable, and with its Lightning plug-in does what I need for my work machine. If Evolution ever got to the same level of development as it is now in Linux, it would seriously threaten MS Outlook's killer App status. IMO, its the best of the MS Office apps. But in the Meantime, there's a project being pursued by osafoundation.org to develop a mail server called Cosmo and a client called Chandler that could circumvent the whole evolution strategy Novell started, and thwart Miscrosoft's efforts to kill off any Challenge to Exchange/Outlook supremacy. Parallel development is being done for Linux, OSX, and Windows. I'm waiting for MS to drop the other IP and patent infringement shoe on OSAF, and I'm watching this project closely. I hope it comes to fruition. Protocols are supposed to work exactly like MS Exchange and Outlook. Suse and Novell got us this far, but the next challenge to Exchange/Outlook will come from osafoundation.org. The project is being mostly funded by Mitch Kapor, Chair of OSAF. Previously, he founded Lotus Development corporation and co-founded the Electronic Frontier Foundation. I think he has a good idea where this is going. The project is still in alpha release, but looks great so far. I know this is a little off topic, but I thought it dovetailed with MRiGnS previous post and points about Suse/Novell's contributions.