Do you have to be a programmer to use Ubuntu?

[aysiu]

Every now and then we get threads like this one (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=391501&highlight=why+do+you+have+to+be+a+programmer+use+l inux), in which someone makes it sound as if you have to be a programmer to use Ubuntu.

Just trying to see to what extent that's true.

Answer this poll only if you're actually using Ubuntu on a regular basis.

And the answers are for before you started using Ubuntu. Your situation may have changed after you started using it.

[papercuts]

This is a good idea. I am curious to know as well. There is only one problem with this poll. It is equally distributed as low, middle and high level but most users are low level. So if there is an equal distribution in this poll I think it still proves that ubuntu and some programming or power user knowledge go hand in hand (though it doesn't mean one causes the other). A normal distribution should be heavy on the lower levels I think .

[aysiu]

Well, since by "use," frustrated users really mean "download, install, and configure," it's always going to be a little top-heavy.

But this should at least dispel the notion that you have to be a programmer to install and configure and/or use Ubuntu. Are you more likely to be a programmer? Sure. Given the lack of preinstall options right now (yes, even with the upcoming Dell deal), we'll definitely be a little top-heavy in this poll.

[Sunflower1970]

I wasn't quite up to the level of what I believe a power user was with Windows, but if there was a problem or if I needed to upgrade anything (hardware/software etc) or reinstall Windows, get into the registry etc, I could do it no problem. I now use Ubuntu almost exclusively at home (work I have no choice but use XP Pro).

No programming experience here at all. Don't think I could even if I tried. (lol) Am much more comfortable with the command line now. Something I thought I'd never be. Find I use it more and more as time goes on. :)

[karellen]

I was (and I still am) a computer science student

[jrusso2]

I have known a lot of programmers that had a hard time with Linux because even they were programmers they knew nothing about hardware and drivers and getting them to work.

I think if anything someone who is a builder of PC's and understands hardware and drivers would have an easier time.

[Mateo]

This is a loaded question and a straw man of the frustration people often have setting up Ubuntu sometimes. This thread was not intended to have a legitimate discussion of the real issue. It was created to demonize people who have a hard time setting up Ubuntu.

[ErikTheRed]

I think a lot of people think that programmers are the most knowledgeable about computers in general. I know people in CS whose knowledge of general computer stuff is lacking compared to my own. I am a management student and a gamer, but I've learned a lot of general computer knowledge over the years.

[user1397]

Before ubuntu, I guess I would consider myself a windows "power user" at home, but no so much. I played high-end games, and always fixed mine and other people's computers when they had problems.

[hanzomon4]

I guess you could say I was a power user... Certainly wasn't a programmer.

Mateo, what is the real issue?

[Daveski]

I have a good friend who certainly is not a programmer, and he gets on very well with Ubuntu.

[MRiGnS]

I don't think you'll have to be a programmer to use ubuntu, but you'll need to be at least a kind of poweruser to install and set it up properly.

The freedom to do everything you want with your OS is an double edged blade if it comes to usability.

[ComplexNumber]

aysiu
one small point. i feel that the question in the thread doesn't correspond or relate to the title of the poll. before i first used ubuntu, and even before i'd even used linux some 10 years or so ago, i had lots of computer and programming experience. but very little of my programming experience was useful for being able to use ubuntu.
therefore, i would say, no, you don't have to be a programmer to use ubuntu, but it may help in some niche areas, in the same way that it may help in some niche areas on other OSs.

[Mateo]

I guess you could say I was a power user... Certainly wasn't a programmer.

Mateo, what is the real issue?

Obviously the issue is whether linux is difficult to set up and/or use. The language used was purposed done so in order to make the person Aysiu disagrees with look foolish. Aysiu has his/her-self said in the past that he/she is not a programmer. Since he/she uses uses Ubuntu, then obviously you don't have to be a programmer to use Ubuntu.

When you ask a question you already know the answer to, it's called a leading question, and it's not meant to foster conversation but rather as an underhanded insult.

[SunnyRabbiera]

I am anything but a programmer, i am an everyday user who finds ubuntu extremely easy.

[cjm5229]

I am a truck driver, My wife and I started homeschooling our children and needed a computer to help with lessons and research, Trying to keep WinXp running and virus free was too time consuming for me. I tried Linspire, Mepis, and Xandros, before I found Ubuntu . I started with 5.04. I had problems but Aysiu and others in these forums provided answers I could understand, which I was never able to do with Window. Was I a porg, Prga, programer? I can't even spell the word! I have learned so much about computers since trying Ubuntu though that I am thinking about learning a little about programing. I now set up Ubuntu on computers for my friends because I wouldn't wish Windows on anyone. We now have Five computers in the house and only one (Wifes) has Windows on it, and even she uses Ubuntu most of the time. One more thing I know Aysiu well enough to know that he is not trying to insult anyone, People are continually asking these kind of questions in the forums and this gives him a reference he can point them to so they can see the answer themselves. Remember he is a teacher, and will make you learn whether you want to or not. Now if he could just teach me how to spell that word!

[blackspyder]

If by programmer you mean know a little about the command line and can make it do your bidding even at a very basic level then yes. But that can be said of linux in general

[GrueTamer]

I used to always take a look at code and do some basic changes, but nothing major. But every so often, I delve back in, and I'm currently trying to learn some ruby. But no, you do not have to be a programmer to use Ubuntu, and I think that some people misuse the term when describing problems, and I can see that in the thread linked in the first post. Compiling a program that you didn't program doesn't really make you a "programmer", and changing values in various text files, like your xorg config, really doesn't make you a programmer either. To me, that is.

[euler_fan]

I think I was getting to be a decent power user in XP before I switched over, but I was not and still am not a programmer. I am okay in the command line for really basic things with a good guide and/or a syntax reference (I can install from source, un-install from source, move around the file system, move files around, launch programs, and a few other basic things).

Do you need to be a programmer? No. Willing to learn a little bit about the CLI? Yes. Some things just need to be done that way (Configuring ClamAV for instance, running Ckrootkit, Rkhunter, . . . )

[starcraft.man]

I can definitively say that I was nowhere near being a programmer and I got Ubuntu in under a few weeks (by got I mean know my way around well enough that I can help other people). I will admit, I did fall under the power user category though (I should hope so after starting with dos and being windows loyal for 15 years).

I don't think its that hard, people just are too busy/lazy to learn something new when they believe it to require more work than what they already do, might explain why so many people continued to use windows all those years, it was just easiest >.>.

[papercuts]

I think the heart of the matter is the "command line attitude". The Terminal is a useful thing and a plus for Linux, but as soon as you start to make people HAVE TO use it, it's not user-friendly anymore. So naturally people think they need to be programmers. Sure you can install a bigillion apps at the same time but the user is still clueless about where they end up, or what the hell just happenned. If an error happens at this stage the directions don't help anymore and into the forums.

Now imagine you make a great house with a lot of functionalities and you put a remote control with a few thousand buttons on it, with sudo, ls, cd .. in larger buttons. Like most remotes people only use the large buttons and never bother to learn any more, so the other super functionalities are just waste of space for them. Your average remote has around 30 buttons, now imagine one with a thousand.

To make this post unnecessarily longer, I should add that this is a result of the developer perception of an operating system. Developers really get how it can be useful, we beginners, not so much. We like the mouse, and we like our GUI. :)

Edit: Please let people be lazy about computers, after all it's not their life's work. They might be busy fighting evil elsewhere or simply getting that paycheck, or looking after their kids. You can't blame people for not prioritizing computers. Also Ubuntu can be command line free in a couple of steps, there is just a high resistance.

[Lucifiel]

Forgive me but I'd say that sometimes, installing and configuring various software in Ubuntu(or Linux in general?) requires knowledge of what type of files to install, as well as the ability to figure out the various related libraries/dependencies which're not always listed out for you.

Yeah, sometimes, you need to even dig around a little on the net and try to guess which is the closest name of the library since the one listed in the manual/faq can't always be found in Synaptic. After all, packages can go defunct, can be blacklisted, revised, etc.

For working out installations via command line, especially failed ones, if you've never ever had a slightest bit of programming knowledge, the user would be like a fish out of water: panicking and getting goose bumps, over that huge chunk of text. And even if you knew some programming, sometimes, sifting through that entire list of coding and output can't be easy either. For you need to learn how to read the different codes and commands and so on. Furthermore, help is not always available for certain installations so it's not always a matter of reading guides and threads on various sites and forums.

I used to do a bit of programming : C++, visual basic, etc. and some web programming as well, so I do know how to make a little sense of output. *shrugs* Also, having used Windows for many years, I learnt how to sift through installation log output and error messages.

However, I sometimes wonder if it's really necessary to make someone learn how to do CLI just because, well, it's the best way of doing so? What if said user just wants something done and doggone it, who cares if it's the more complicated way to do so? Does the best way justify having a user learn tons of coding, etc., so that he/she can finish a task?

[mills]

i only started using a computer about 3 years ago and pretty much just use it for web browsing and e-mail, so when Microsoft asked me to fork out $$$ for vista to do just a couple of basic things i realized it was time to look for an alternative which is when i heard about linux (just a few months ago), before i started reading about linux i didn't even know a hard drive could be partitioned, I didn't know what a kernel was and certainly didn't know anything about programming and still don't.

Linux has been a learning curve for me, but i wouldn't say its been difficult maybe a little tricky sometimes.

so my verdict, NO, you don't need to be a programmer to use ubuntu

[Outrunner]

I don't know that much about programming really(although, I'm hoping to learn the basics some day), but I can tell you that you don't need to be a programmer to do anything in Ubuntu. I guess you could call me a bit of a power user though (home) so that might change things a bit.

[Jellicletrb]

I was just "joe user". I did email, web surfing, online banking, my digital photography maxed out at crop and resize. But from the security and banking standpoint, Windows scared me, so I switched to find something more secure. I basically learned Ubuntu just by using search on the forums and doing a lot of reading. I've hit some bumps, but nothing that I couldn't find the answer to :KS

[sanderella]

No problems downloading and installing Ubuntu, or learning to use it by clicking on icons. Learning to use the terminal now, although I get some strange results :confused:

My only BIG problem has been the wireless card on my Dell laptop. Getting it sorted, but slowly.

[fuscia]

LOL! definitely not. i think even a moron could use it.

[racoq]

I think this poll has many questions. You should make it as Ubuntu Philosiphy, plain simple, or just work for its intent. :lolflag:

[JerseyShoreComputer]

I am not a programmer currently. Many years ago I was a programmer with the Apple ][ line.. Other than HTML and web sites, no programming here. So even with a basic (if not outdated) knowledge, I like using Ubuntu. You shouldn't need to know programming to use it. However, knowing how to program can help you to expand it. So thats my next goal is to learn programming to further the cause.

[jcconnor]

My son is not a programmer but he can use Ubuntu - he even mocks his older brother who's a bit put off about using it.

But I would consider myself a pseudo-power user and I think it does, currently, require more than click and point to get the thing installed and working properly with some hardware / software combinations. Compiling apps put me off initially but after a couple of months of doing it, messing up, redoing it, etc. it is getting better.

Now, once it starts coming pre-installed (Dell, others??) on consumer level equipment and you can go into Best Buy / Comp-USA and buy an Ubuntu desktop/laptop, take it home, turn it on and start working out of the box I think poll results will push down the curve.

Still interesting to see that it's about a 50/50 split. (Though roughly 1/3 consider themselves power users). I would hazard a guess that if the Dell thing is successful that in the next year or so the "I did basic stuff" numbers would match the "power user" numbers.

[Hex_Mandos]

I'm not a programmer, but I can read simple code in many languages. Over the years, I managed to get some very superficial knowledge of QBasic, Clipper, C, Visual Basic, HTML, PHP, Gambas, Javascript and BASH scripting. But I wouldn't be able to code an app (or script, or website) in any of those languages, with the probable exception of HTML. Programming knowledge does NOT help someone install and use Ubuntu, but knowing a bit about programming means you understand a bit more about how computers in general work.

Have the people who say "Ubuntu is for programmers" ever tried to do a clean install of Windows? Ubuntu is my favorite OS to install, when compared to other distros and Windows.

[Chrimson Scorpion]

Hi all
I have now (unsuccessfully) been trying to integrate Linux (IPCOP, Ubantu & Mandriva have all been tried) in to my home network. Having kids, I feel it is very important that they have as wider view of what is available to them as PC users and indeed the fact that home PC's can be more that an expensive instant messaging machine!

Unfortunately, I am beginning to think that the people who create Linux distributions are doing so for the benefit of other Linux programmers. I certainly DO NOT want a Windows clone, bet at the same time, I have no idea where to start with Linux.

All you seem to get are instructions like "just type in 'balh/ blah/ blah'"
And where exactly am I supposed to do this? "Just log in to the root""?
And what and where exactly is the root?

Yes I expected Linux to be different, if I did not want different why change from Windows (apart from the monopolising & excessive charges & subtle ways they have of tracking what you do & how you do it).

I also feel Linux forums are less than the friendly supportive places they pertain to be.

My experience with IPCop so far is that because I have no idea how to set it up despite following the user guide to the letter, that I am a complete idiot that is not worth helping.

Come on developers. When are you going to realise that for any Linux OS to really hit the big time and become a serious contender to Windows, you are going to have to program for us real people. I installed Mandriva (Yes I know this site is Ubuntu but I could not get that to install at all!) simply to use an old P4 machine as network storage and possible an FTP server. I chose the options to reflect this use and have ended up with around 50 programs that I have absolutely no use for. Yes I could uninstall, but HOW? "Wel what you need to do is log in a sroot and blah/ blah..."

I intend to carry on this long slog in experienceing and evaluating the merits of Linux -v- Windows but how long will I go on? I really have absolutely no idea. I have no intention of "Buying a book to learn how to program" as I have been advised. Little metaphor for you: If I change from a BMW to a Ford, should I have to learn a completely different highway code? Don't think so.

Whats the point of this post? not really sure to be honest. Think I just wanted to get this off my chest. I really really do not want to have to resort to installing the Vista premium I have or to buy a license for MS server 2003. Can replies to posts on Linux forums not be aimed at the target user? i.e. tell me exactly what I need to do step by step and where I am going wrong. What program to open & where it is. Do not resort to "just type in..." Tell me where to type it. If I need to use linux in a specific way, don't just rely on "go to this download"" or "read this article". I and no doubt others judging by some of the posts I have seen, only have a finite patience and absolutely no inclination to bcome Linux developers.

We simply want to be able to start our computers in the knowledge that they will work the way we want them to, using the software we choose and will remain safe and secure.

:guitar:

[apoth]

Ok, relax firstly! There is a small but steep learning curve at first, you probably had to walk before you could run with Windows at first too.

You're quite right, it was designed by and presumably therefore for programmers originally, but that's no longer a requirement and I see no reason for you to buy a programming book unless you want to learn to program.

All commands that need to be run should be entered into the terminal. In Ubuntu you can find this under Applications / Accessories. I'm not familiar with Mandriva, but it may be called Konsole or Console, it probably has a squarish, mostly black icon.

Root has two meanings within Linux, firstly, the root of the drive is the 'highest' directory on your drive, this is just a / on Linux, the equivalent of C:\ on Windows.

The second meaning is the root user - this is the equivalent of Administrator on a Windows machine. The root user has permissions to do anything so people try not to use it unless they have to for reasons of safety and security. If you want to run a command as root, put sudo (and then a space) before the command when you type it into the terminal. Think of sudo as reading "switch user and do"... you're telling the terminal to switch user (to root is implied) and do the command following.

I wouldn't worry about uninstalling programs at the moment if they're not getting in the way, they're probably not taking up much hard disk space.

Also don't worry if you run commands in the terminal and they error, just put a post on the forums here and see if anyone can spot the problem, we've all been through the same struggle and anyone who tells you to buy a programming manual or RTFM is probably just someone who doesn't actually know how to resolve your problem.

It does get easier!

[misfitpierce]

Indeed small learning curve as said.. prob 15 minutes of reading or you can google learn ubuntu videos online... http://getdeb.net is a great place to get programs point and click to install ready for ubuntu

[Smu]

I've got absolutly no programmingskills whatsoever and been successfully running ubuntu for ovar a year now. I've even managed to install it on several desktops and laptops, wich has had hardware that wasn't supported out of the box. At first the terminal and running commands felt really scary and complicated, but now after a year of ubuntu I actually kinda like the terminal and just knowing that my whole system is open...

It's a bit hard to understand the commands in the beginning and it feels like you'd have to learn all the terminal commands. The fact is that you manage to administrate your ubuntu machine with just a few commands, and if there is something you don't know theres a answer for you in the forum.

Learning ubuntu is much like learning anything else, you have to have the motivation to learn it otherwise it may seem just hard and complicated. And you have to remember Linux isn't windows...

[Chrimson Scorpion]

Hi & thanks for responding.

Perhaps I just need my ego stroked a little. My job requires me to administer databases & use VB, MSSQL & dBase daily however I must admit Linux WAS starting to get to me.

I expected a learning curve however I was not prepared for the lack of specifics I have encountered. there is just so much experimenting I am prepared to do.

Just for information hoever, I spent 2 hours trying to find a PDF reader that was point & click, 15 Mins reading is a huge underestimate (unless of course you have been doing Linux for a while) and google brings back so many listings you can spend hours just looking.

An example for you. IPCOP (and yes I have been on the forum and even after a few weeks, still cannot get up the firewall to run). There is a problem getting the PC to recognise the USB DSL modem. Whats that got to do with this forum, well, basically it is a case of do this, do that, look here & look there. Yes I know there are manuals and guides and this and that, but I think the point is should I have to do this?

Obviously I am reasonably proficient at windows systems & there was obviously a learning curve. what there was not however was a feeling that not being able to do something within a few minutes requires many hours of reading, searching and posting on forums, fraustration and feeling stupid for even asking.

Perhaps it is just a little bit scary thinking about sticking new stuff in to the core coding of your PC's OS and making changes that could potentially bring the whole thing crashing about around my ears.

These are positives however which is why I am on here now. Unlike my windows experiences & even though my Linux experience is VERY limited, I have noticed it appears a lot more stable (in terms of a major change such as adding memory! to the system would ( and has in my case) require a XP full reinstall). Simply plugging in a USB mouse for example does not result in 5 minutes of hardware / software automatic installation & messages saying this & that is happening. Just plug it in & it works.

A question for you. Is it better to just download, install see what you cannot work & then ask or is it better to tell someone what I want & get advice on how to achieve it?

:popcorn:

[regomodo]

If typing in bash commands is programming then i'm Jesus

Just like everyone keeps saying. Linux is not Windows

@ Chrimson. Never heard of having to reinstall XP because of a RAM upgrade. Only ever had to reinstall XP for a new mobo when upgrading.

[RomeReactor]

Hi. I think you should take into account that most Linux developers have day jobs and are doing this in their spare time; those that work for large companies (Red Hat, IBM, etc.) are the minority. If Linux programmers could devote their entire time to develop Linux, we probably would see graphical interfaces for even the most menial task. That, however, is not the case, and they must choose between coding more/new functionality to our OS, or make it easier to use. Both paths are important, but as I said they don't have the luxury of doing both. Give them time; I think most (if not all) Linux developers have usability in mind when doing their work. I can't imagine a Linux programmer thinking, "hmmm, I think I'll leave the GUI out of this one; no-one will want to use it anyway..."

That being said, don't deride the command line as some sort of poor man's DOS; it is very powerful tool, once you get used to it.

[Chrimson Scorpion]

If I knew what a Bash command was I could answer that question.

PLEASE do not take me the wrong way here, I have every respect for Linux developers and am in no way trying to put you down. I AM NOT a MicroSoft addict or employee who has simply come on here to have a go.

The point I am trying to make is that I am finding it difficult to get to grips with and some of the replies to posts on Linux forums have been extremely patronising, often confusing and littered with phrases I simply have no idea about.

I work in adult education and have no illusions that anything new can be a simple as one is told it is. At the moment however, not knowing anyone who is a 'proficient' Linux user as I said I am struggling. Even this absolute beginner forum has some posts that lose me after the second "MSVBVM50.dll"

[freebird54]

These forums are a great place to get help if you need it. However, an amazing number of things are automatically done for you with Ubuntu on install. Tweaking from there is never very difficult (if it is possible - which is a separate issue!).

When you see a command here, it will usually be in its own box like this: example command follows:


gksudo gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf

and you can just pick up the line with copy - then paste it into the terminal (moused from the menus in Applications->Accessories->Teminal and hit <enter>

Things are done in this form because trying to explain a train of mouse clicks is a much harder task (ever tried to follow a support tech's instructions on Windows? Even if you already KNOW where the options he's working on are located?) Much simpler in the terminal, and even the typos should be eliminated (given that your 'helper' didn't make any of course! - but that's rare.

If your problems are on another system, then the help (if available - often is) becomes much more generic, and may resemble the 'help' you mentioned elsewhere.. :)

Hope this explains what's going on here - and to see how it works, try the SEARCH tool here on the forums. Enter in a term of interest (USB device?) and pick a thread or two to look at and see how it's done. When you have a question you want to post, give it a clear title (can't get screen resolution over 1024X768 ) and you will get an answer faster (perhaps less than 5 minutes) and that help will be someone who has a clue on solving your diffuclty.

I was totally blown away by the speed of response here - I posted, and figured to check back next morning to see what I got - and before I even closed the browser my Email was beeping with notifications that I had answers! Less than 2 hours and I had the whole thing up and running well...

Oh - another thought. If you haven't dloaded a version of Ubuntu yet - you might want to consider edubuntu for a kid's system (depending I guess on their ages a bit) as the tools for kid-proofing the net etc are already in place (along with more games etc).

[apoth]

Bash is the name of the program which runs the things you type into the terminal.

Don't worry about the DLL post looking confusing, I've been using Linux for over six years, I am a programmer in my day job and there's no way you'd catch me using WINE ever again (the emulator for running Windows programs in Linux)! I think the lesson to learn there is that Microsoft and Linux don't mix very well - they're different.

In answer to your previous question, just try whatever you like and when it goes wrong, and inevitably it will, have a quick google and if you don't get anywhere fast, post a forum post and hopefully someone can help. Many of us have spent hours googling too which is why we don't mind trying to help on forums :)

[LaRoza]

When I first got Linux, I was completely lost, and I program! On this forum, I didn't understand what "Edgy" and "grub" were, but was afraid to ask.

When you learn Linux, you will understand why people post the way they (we) do.

Keep in mind the average users doesn't know what a partition is, or what a file system is.

It is difficult to know the users knowlegde, so often times, the post is answered (correctly) but assumes a level of knowlegde.

Another reason certain terms are used with explanation, like, "run as root", is that this a very common action and given that this forum gets similar questions all the time, and people are asking the same questions, it is not worth explaining everthing from the ground up, although if the OP asks for more info, it is given.

In a short time, you will understand many things, and will assume others will know the same. Just like you probably assume people know what a "folder" is in Windows, you will know what the "home directory" is.

[Chrimson Scorpion]

It seems that Google (or Tiscali search in my case) is going to be an essential aid in my becoming proficient and achieving my aims of having a mixed OS network.

I am going to change the focus here slightly (or should I post under a different header?).

Basically I have 3 PC's & a lap top. 2 runninng XP home & 2 XP. pro. At the moment the lap top is running as the internet gateway and slowly dying.

What I want to achieve (apart form a stable network that does not constantly require resetting!) is->

Use an old Pentium 3 as a firewall gateway to the network. This will run through a 3COM 24 port Switch (got it for nothing which is why it seems a little excessive). I have an old P4 which is turned over to network storage (currently having 3 IDE & 2 SCSI hard drives).

I want the network storage & firewall to run to run off Linux & am currently building a new machine that will be a Linux only PC for general messing about.

The plan (was) run IPCOP as firewall, Ubuntu Server as the network attached storage & use either Ubuntu 7.04 desktop or Mandriva for the Linux PC.

Will this work or am I being too ambitious?

:confused:

[Chrimson Scorpion]

Excellent.
Thanks for your patience & help.

[ugm6hr]

Just a thought, as a simple user.

Might be worth getting the desktop to mess around with up and running to become familiar with Linux / Ubuntu before tackling the server / networking.

Getting Ubuntu to run on a desktop is very straightforward in most cases.

[LaRoza]

Getting a server installed in the desktop is also easy:



sudo tasksel

[Jimmyfj]

Chrimson - I for one fully understand your frustrations - I've been there myself.

From my point of view the worst thing about Windows is the "ease of use". I've been around in the world of computers since 1991, in the happy days of DOS, where GUI was just as ugly as Vista is good looking. Those were the days when you had some degree of control over your system, but things are not like that any more.

For my part I wont agree with you that it's the Linux programmers that are making newbies feel lost and "stupid" as you put it - It's Microsoft that is to blame for that one. They are the ones who have removed any command line operations from their OS locking their users in deeper than ever before. The ease of use in Windows is the very same issue that keeps you locked in to the mercy of Microsoft. You just don't see it that way, do you? To you the lack of command line actions in Windows is equal to ease of use while in fact it's the very same fact that keeps you locked in on Windows.

Linux is all about freedom. YOUR freedom, as well as mine - And I do like the freedom to control my computer in every way I like.

To try and help you out a bit on the command line issue here's a few links for you to study:

http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/theshell.html

http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/linux/cmd/

And please feel free to drop a thread if you encounter any problems - There'll always be one of us ready to help you out - Just do remember: There are NO such thing as a stupid question - Only none-intelligent answers.

[LaRoza]

Don't blame Linux, people who use Linux a lot get completely lost and confused on Windows. Also Windows has a command line and I use it more than the gui.

If some one asked "How do I find all hidden text files" and was using windows, the easiest way to do this would be:


DIR *.txt /A:H /S


the average user would not know how to use that advice, I believe, but it is Windows 100%.

[regomodo]

It seems that Google (or Tiscali search in my case) is going to be an essential aid in my becoming proficient and achieving my aims of having a mixed OS network.

I am going to change the focus here slightly (or should I post under a different header?).

Basically I have 3 PC's & a lap top. 2 runninng XP home & 2 XP. pro. At the moment the lap top is running as the internet gateway and slowly dying.

What I want to achieve (apart form a stable network that does not constantly require resetting!) is->

Use an old Pentium 3 as a firewall gateway to the network. This will run through a 3COM 24 port Switch (got it for nothing which is why it seems a little excessive). I have an old P4 which is turned over to network storage (currently having 3 IDE & 2 SCSI hard drives).

I want the network storage & firewall to run to run off Linux & am currently building a new machine that will be a Linux only PC for general messing about.

The plan (was) run IPCOP as firewall, Ubuntu Server as the network attached storage & use either Ubuntu 7.04 desktop or Mandriva for the Linux PC.

Will this work or am I being too ambitious?

:confused:

http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7

Try to stay OT

[apoth]

Just a thought, as a simple user.

Might be worth getting the desktop to mess around with up and running to become familiar with Linux / Ubuntu before tackling the server / networking.

Getting Ubuntu to run on a desktop is very straightforward in most cases.

Seems like a great way of starting things to me.

[xpod]

Hi all
I have now (unsuccessfully) been trying to integrate Linux (IPCOP, Ubantu & Mandriva have all been tried) in to my home network. Having kids, I feel it is very important that they have as wider view of what is available to them as PC users and indeed the fact that home PC's can be more that an expensive instant messaging machine!

Unfortunately, I am beginning to think that the people who create Linux distributions are doing so for the benefit of other Linux programmers. I certainly DO NOT want a Windows clone, bet at the same time, I have no idea where to start with Linux.

Thats exactly how i felt sitting down at a computer for the very first time last year.....Windows of course:)
4 months later i discovered Ubuntu and now one year later me and the kids would`nt have it any other way.

You could`nt ask for a better operating system as far as the kids go i think.
I had more "DAD theres something wrong again`s" in one day with Windows than i`ve had in a whole year with Ubuntu.

I can well see a couple of my girls becoming these "programmers" you speak of but thats a good few years off yet i reckon:lolflag:

[deadgobby]

>>Don't blame Linux, people who use Linux a lot get completely lost and confused on Windows.
That has happen to me. Some one has ask me who to do some thing on windows and I am like what? I think it was to remove a virus or some thing. Any how, you can program like PHP, HTML, MySQL, and so on. Right now I am learning PHP and MySQL at my own time. There is Python too. As many other people has said before. Linux is not windows. No by a long shot. There is some other distro's out there that is made for the %100 new be. Like Linspire for a good example. I started with Linspire and grown out of it. I was tired with windows and did not want to pay extra money for a PC with MS installed. So I got a linux O/S with Linspire installed. I did get flustered with it, but stand firm to learn Linux. Now after 5 years. I use Linux at home all the time. At work it is a windows world.
Gobby

[Matakoo]

Use an old Pentium 3 as a firewall gateway to the network. This will run through a 3COM 24 port Switch (got it for nothing which is why it seems a little excessive). I have an old P4 which is turned over to network storage (currently having 3 IDE & 2 SCSI hard drives).

I want the network storage & firewall to run to run off Linux & am currently building a new machine that will be a Linux only PC for general messing about.

The plan (was) run IPCOP as firewall, Ubuntu Server as the network attached storage & use either Ubuntu 7.04 desktop or Mandriva for the Linux PC.

Will this work or am I being too ambitious?

:confused:

It would work, but it does require some work to setup and may be too complicated for people new to Linux. Just a couple of tips: first, I'm not sure if I misunderstood you but do you intend to use the same machine for firewall and network storage? If so, I would consider splitting that into two. A firewall appliance should only work as a firewall in my opinion. For a home user, it might be overkill to have one anyway. Most routers made for homeuse has a decent firewall built-in, and Linux is decently safe to begin with. Doesn't hurt to have one though :)

As for network attached storage, take a look at http://www.freenas.org. Okay, it is based on FreeBSD rather than Linux but is easy to setup. Especially if you follow the instructions at http://www.huntersdad.com/?page_id=23

[Chrimson Scorpion]

Some interesting responces & my sinsearest thanks. (P.S. will repost the other query about the network under a different topic Regomodo)

Firstly this is not a 'blame' thing. I too use windows command line however would be more likely to use the Graphical User Interface to find hidden files simply by including them in the search criteria. Perhaps it is my need to understand what I am doing that is part of the problem here. Simply saying:

run: DIR *.txt /A:H /S

Would mean absolutely nothing to most people I know who use home (and work) PC's. Making assumptions that people understand what it is you are talking about is the easiest way to lose their motivation, interest & trust.
Your sample code for instance. If I understand the fisrst bit, you are saying look in all directories for .txt files that are hidden. is that the '/A:H/S' bit? (I am not looking for an answer to that by the way).

Ultiamtely, there is a large user group who wants it both ways. to keep control but have ease of use. I totally agree that the 'Ease of Use' is an attempt to lock the user in to someone elses idea of how a system should be used and yes I REALLY want the freedom that Linux offers. Again, this is not me having a go at programmers. I do that there is an expected level of understanding on some forums.

It feels as if I know that linux exist so should have taken the time to tead about grub, root, edgy before using it. My dilemma for example, should I take the time to learn how I am doing what I am doing before I attempt to set up a network? Should I need to or is this symptomatic of the microsoft user mentality?

Going back to my car metaphor earlier, I only learn to drive one, pass my driving test once so should I need to spend 3 months learning to drive a Mondeo simply because BMW has everything computer controlled?

[NCAANFI]

Man I;m new at this too. I can say people do try to help me but sometimes the instructions are over my head because it's tough to put it in a context when you are being spoonfed instructions rather than getting an explanation why those instructions were given. That's cool, most people here are volunteering their skills and knowledge and most don't have the time to hold my hand through the process. I borrowed a couple of books from the library and they've been helpful in combination with what's sad here. Particularly with the logic/thought process required. It is logical but the terminology and process is different.

[apoth]

It's probably more like going to the BMW from a Mondeo. Sport buttons, flappy paddles, no gear stick, HUDs, air conditioning control for the four corners of your car, GPS navigation, voice commands for your phone, would be confusing! Worth getting used to though for all that extra power and control.

[deadgobby]

Like learning to drive a new car. Speed with come as you learn how to control it. It takes time for some and with others. They are on the gas to see what the limits are before what the car limits are. Every thing has a limit and some times it is not best to learn that limit before you crash and burn.
Gobby

[stepan2]

Ok, relax firstly! There is a small but steep learning curve at first, you probably had to walk before you could run with Windows at first too.

You're quite right, it was designed by and presumably therefore for programmers originally, but that's no longer a requirement and I see no reason for you to buy a programming book unless you want to learn to program.

All commands that need to be run should be entered into the terminal. In Ubuntu you can find this under Applications / Accessories. I'm not familiar with Mandriva, but it may be called Konsole or Console, it probably has a squarish, mostly black icon.

Root has two meanings within Linux, firstly, the root of the drive is the 'highest' directory on your drive, this is just a / on Linux, the equivalent of C:\ on Windows.

The second meaning is the root user - this is the equivalent of Administrator on a Windows machine. The root user has permissions to do anything so people try not to use it unless they have to for reasons of safety and security. If you want to run a command as root, put sudo (and then a space) before the command when you type it into the terminal. Think of sudo as reading "switch user and do"... you're telling the terminal to switch user (to root is implied) and do the command following.

I wouldn't worry about uninstalling programs at the moment if they're not getting in the way, they're probably not taking up much hard disk space.

Also don't worry if you run commands in the terminal and they error, just put a post on the forums here and see if anyone can spot the problem, we've all been through the same struggle and anyone who tells you to buy a programming manual or RTFM is probably just someone who doesn't actually know how to resolve your problem.

It does get easier!

he pretty much gave you a great answer.

[LaRoza]

... Making assumptions that people understand what it is you are talking about is the easiest way to lose their motivation, interest & trust.

Your sample code for instance. If I understand the fisrst bit, you are saying look in all directories for .txt files that are hidden. is that the '/A : H/S' bit? (I am not looking for an answer to that by the way).


It feels as if I know that linux exist so should have taken the time to tead about grub, root, edgy before using it. My dilemma for example, should I take the time to learn how I am doing what I am doing before I attempt to set up a network? Should I need to or is this symptomatic of the microsoft user mentality?

Going back to my car metaphor earlier, I only learn to drive one, pass my driving test once so should I need to spend 3 months learning to drive a Mondeo simply because BMW has everything computer controlled?

Exactly, people assume others know. i would never give that command to a windows user, i wouldn't even mention it, because I know people in Windows are not used to a CLI. However, the average linux user probably would be used to it, so I would have a "level of expectation". It is possible the poster doesn't know, but chances are, they will know soon.

For most commands, actually all of them, typing "man" before the command name will give you a break down. (Man is short for "manual").

People learn differently, some like to study before they actually do anything, others like to fiddle and learn by experience.

If you have the time, it will probably be worth it to install the desktop version, and then install a server, that way you have a GUI. You can take time to learn with this and probably accomplish some of what you wanted in the beginning.

No matter what you do, you will learn it if you want to, once you get used to it, it will be easy. (I still highlight words in Windows and expect middle clicking to paste it. In Linux, if you highlight something, and middle click else where, it copies what was highlighted, no need to "copy" although you can if you want.)

In case you didn't know:
edgy is the previous Ubuntu version, Ubuntu 6.10, Feisty is the current, 7.04

grub is the boot loader, it can boot almost any OS including Windows, it makes dual booting easy

I know you weren't looking for it, others might like to know, Dir list all files and folders in a directory, /A : x specifies an attribute, where X is the attribute, /S searches subdirectories. (attributes are H,S,R,A)

If you read the man pages, you will get a break down of a given command. You can even type "man man" to get the man page for man.

-EDIT Sorry for the emoticon, I didn't know that was going to happen, interesting effect though. there should be no spaces between the /A : X,

[Matakoo]

For most commands, actually all of them, typing "man" before the command name will give you a break down. (Man is short for "manual").

I wouldn't recommend man to a newbie, though. I wouldn't even call it a manual...it's a reference book if you will. Excellent if you know what you're doing (just need a refresher on the syntax or what options say mount takes) and what you're looking for, but not very useful if you want to learn.

[Matakoo]

It feels as if I know that linux exist so should have taken the time to tead about grub, root, edgy before using it. My dilemma for example, should I take the time to learn how I am doing what I am doing before I attempt to set up a network? Should I need to or is this symptomatic of the microsoft user mentality?

Well, a bit of both really. It is quite possible to setup a basic network without being a Linux-guru (or Microsoft guru for that matter, if the network had been MS-based). Setting up a secure network (well, more secure at least. There's no such thing as a completely secure network or computer) is another thing entirely. In order to do that, yes you do need to know a little more about Linux security (i.e. what root is, suid/guid flags, chroot jails maybe, and so on), network (in)security (i.e. ssh-tunneling, port-forwarding) and safe computing practices (what makes a strong password for instance). Just examples that might or might not be applicable in your case, but you get the general idea I hope.

And in my experience, the best in this regard are mostly self-taught and has learned from mistakes they made earlier on.

[xpod]

It feels as if I know that linux exist so should have taken the time to tead about grub, root, edgy before using it. My dilemma for example, should I take the time to learn how I am doing what I am doing before I attempt to set up a network? Should I need to or is this symptomatic of the microsoft user mentality?


I generally just DO something and learn as i go:)
I certainly never had a clue about any of the stuff i`ve managed this last year or so as i jumped in and had a go......i`m the guy that thought a "partition" was the Japaneese room devider my wife has in the bedroom

We dont use a router here at home just yet but i`ve still managed to have 3 desktops and a laptop all connected with internet & filesharing etc so it certainly could`nt have been that hard:wink:

It dont matter how much you know now,all that matters is your willing to learn....and mabey ask a few dumb seeming questions along the way if needs be.

Good luck

[LaRoza]

I wouldn't recommend man to a newbie, though. I wouldn't even call it a manual...it's a reference book if you will. Excellent if you know what you're doing (just need a refresher on the syntax or what options say mount takes) and what you're looking for, but not very useful if you want to learn.

If the OP is used to Windows CLI, man pages are like the /? option so each option will be explained. So if someone gives a command with a lot of vague option, like tar, each option will be listed in the man page.

[vexorian]

Come on developers. When are you going to realise that for any Linux OS to really hit the big time and become a serious contender to Windows, you are going to have to program for us real people. I installed Mandriva (Yes I know this site is Ubuntu but I could not get that to install at all!) simply to use an old P4 machine as network storage and possible an FTP server. I chose the options to reflect this use and have ended up with around 50 programs that I have absolutely no use for. Yes I could uninstall, but HOW? "Wel what you need to do is log in a sroot and blah/ blah..."

I don't know about mandriva, but uninstalling software in ubuntu is like you go to synaptic (system\administration\synaptic package manage) (These are GUI menus, there is a big system menu in the top of the default interface) and then you use synaptic's GUI interface to find the package of the thing you want to uninstall... Mandriva is a serious distribution so I would have to bet it comes with its own package manager, afaik it is RPM-based. You could have asked them what logging in as sroot is, or you should have tried googling, all in one you probably had to log off (MS renamed that to close session ) and then enter root as user name and the password you should have specified.

Regarding not getting to install ubuntu at all, you should have come here with just that question, among things that you should try to help us help you, you should state what is preventing you to install it, an error message? Live-cd doesn't boot? what?

But I don't like the title of the post mainly because command line is nothing like programming, as a programmer it kind of offends me when people call anything that is complicated to them in computers "programming".

[aysiu]

You may also be interested in reading this thread:
Do you have to be a programmer to use Ubuntu? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=431012)

[djhworld]

Just for information hoever, I spent 2 hours trying to find a PDF reader that was point & click, 15 Mins reading is a huge underestimate (unless of course you have been doing Linux for a while) and google brings back so many listings you can spend hours just looking.

I'm not sure what package manager Mandrake uses (RPM?) but under Ubuntu you don't need to bother 'googling' for software, as there is a package management system already pre installed, called synaptic.

(System -> Administration -> Synaptic Package Manager)

You can search for software in there and it will download and install what you have selected automatically.

[shearn89]

JM2C:



Yes I know there are manuals and guides and this and that, but I think the point is should I have to do this?

Without being harsh - thats the windows mentality talking: because EVERYTHING for the home user is so windows orientated, virtually everything is plug-and-go. Saying that, i've struggled on a number of occaisons in windows to install something, and have it fail simply because my hardware doesn't work. Plus, trying to get support for windows is like trying to draw blood from a stone...



Obviously I am reasonably proficient at windows systems & there was obviously a learning curve. what there was not however was a feeling that not being able to do something within a few minutes requires many hours of reading, searching and posting on forums, fraustration and feeling stupid for even asking.

I think the main problem is that people forget how long ago they started using windows: i help on summer courses teaching OAPs how to use windows. These are people that come into the classroom, and don't know how to turn on the computer. Then they put the mouse on the floor and try and use it like a sewing machine pedal, or they wave it in the air... When the screensaver kicks in, all hell breaks loose!



All you seem to get are instructions like "just type in 'balh/ blah/ blah'"
And where exactly am I supposed to do this? "Just log in to the root""?
And what and where exactly is the root?



The point I am trying to make is that I am finding it difficult to get to grips with and some of the replies to posts on Linux forums have been extremely patronising, often confusing and littered with phrases I simply have no idea about.

These 2 comments seem to contradict each other: you say that you are totally confused by the instructions, and then you complain about being patronised. Generally people are patronising because they're assuming zero knowledge. If you don't understand the instructions, reply and say so! Most people are happy to help!



A question for you. Is it better to just download, install see what you cannot work & then ask or is it better to tell someone what I want & get advice on how to achieve it?


Generally, i find it more satisfying to download stuff, try and install it, and if it works look for an answer, than to just ask to be hand-held all the way.



Ubuntu Server as the network attached storage

I have a suspicion that the Server edition is a CLI only, so maybe install a desktop, and play around first...


Once you've got started, linux does begin to seem much simpler and easier to use/maintain than windows. Plus, there's (almost) no viruses, and most users don't bother with virus protection... Saving you the £30 a month to McAfee...

[eentonig]

A question for you. Is it better to just download, install see what you cannot work & then ask or is it better to tell someone what I want & get advice on how to achieve it?

I do the first. But for someone with absolutly no experience. Or who's already feeling lost. I would recommend the other option. Just open a topic and tell what you want to accomplish, what your goel is. And let the others propose which program is most suitable for your needs.

You'll get 20+ options for programs to install on most questions. Don't worry. Open Synaptic and use the built in search functionality to see if any of the programs is listed. If so, just install and try.)

Btw. Most CLI commands you'll see in the posts over here, will have a GUI alternative. It's just easier to post the CLI equivalent, because you'll have less chance for confusion or errors.

And relax. take it one step at a time.

[Matakoo]

If the OP is used to Windows CLI, man pages are like the /? option so each option will be explained. So if someone gives a command with a lot of vague option, like tar, each option will be listed in the man page.

Isn't that what I said? That man is an excellent resource if you know what you're looking for. That being said, if someone is used to the windows CLI I'm not sure how much use a manpage is going to be. Some to be sure, but not as much use as it would be to someone used to the linux conventions and syntax. As an extreme example, the grep manpage is of no use if you need to use regular expressions and haven't come across the concept before. It does give a good overview, but implies a certain proficiency in pattern matching.

[airtonix]

Why do all Metal Lathes assume a operator can turn metal and read schamtics?


sigh

[Chrimson Scorpion]

OK I get the message which seems to be forget that you are / were a windows user & start afresh (which is basically what I am triny to do anyway).

Just for clarification, the patronising is not from the perspective of the answers being too simple, but from comments that make you feel you are being a complete idiot because you cannot find something or are unsure what the instructions are saying.

Had an example not long ago when I said I was unable to do log in to something via browser that came back as "YES YOU CAN!" and that was it. No help, no interest just impatience and perceived contempt. This is what I mean by patronising.

I would like to thank you all for your contribution & move on to getting this thing working now. No doubt you will see some posts from me elsewhere so please be patient & do not assume we will all understand exactly what you mean.

Best wishes to you all & have fun with your Gnomes!

[djhworld]

I thoroughly recommend you download a desktop CD (you don't even have to install it on your machine, you can boot directly from the CD and run Linux without altering your system) to get a good look and feel for Linux and the command line.

On the topic of patronising comments, some forums I've been on in the past seem to take an ego-centric view on things that revel in the concept of mocking a newbie.

Here it's much different, everyones really friendly and you can usually find a solution to your problem really quick without feeling ignorant.

[rahul_bhise]

i am using ubuntu( and linux) a month now. it took me a week and half to solve my first problem then a little the second the third i solved in a day. i try ubuntu on my home computer. between 10pm to 12 midnight.
and never googled or yahooed just
search https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
search http://ubuntuforums.org/

[mr.farenheit]

think of linux as clay to an artists perspective. at first you don't know what you really want to make but after awhile you see a visualization and you start scraping away at it until your image takes shape. learning programming and new command systems are like techniques of sculpting, and the more you do it the more you'll perfect the technique.

[jrlii]

While you have to drop back to the "Terminal" window a lot more than I'd really like in Ubuntu, there are times when you will ask a question and the answer will be "open the terminal window and type" even when you can do the same thing through a GUI 'cause it is easier to communicate than a sequence of mouse clicks.

For that matter, there are some utilities for Windows which still require you to go to the command prompt and type, 'though the Oracle export/import function is the only significant function I've encountered lately in the Windows world which hasn't had a GUI added.

[macogw]

Just for information hoever, I spent 2 hours trying to find a PDF reader that was point & click, 15 Mins reading is a huge underestimate (unless of course you have been doing Linux for a while) and google brings back so many listings you can spend hours just looking.
Why? It's already installed. When you double click a PDF, it opens in "Document Viewer" (it has some other name but I forget it) automatically. Try clicking things first. You'll be surprised at what's already there that Windows would lack.

Why are you trying to install another firewall?　Ubuntu (and all Linuxes) have one built into the kernel called iptables (it's what's in hardware firewalls). No services are listening to anything by default. If you want to do some other configuration with it, use Firestarter. It's a very easy GUI.

[anewguy]

:)Before reading the rest of my post, PLEASE everyone understand I am not bashing anyone or any operating system. In fact, I have decided to try to use Ubuntu as my main OS (I still have a Windows app for which there is no real alternative in Linux so I run a virtual machine for it). These are just the views I have interpreted from many comments I have read on this forum, and from my friends who keep telling me "you've got to be nuts" when they hear the latest Linux story I have as I try to learn.

I am an extremely novice user to Linux and Ubuntu, but I understand the general idea that the title was trying to get across. I think the choice of words may be a little off, but if you are saying why do you have feel like you are re-inventing the wheel instead of just getting a straight answer, I would tend to agree. I have gotten GREAT support via this forum, and it has helped me tremendously, with most of the replies being very friendly and helpful.:):)

There is, however, a sense of the "old Linux mentality" still around - you know, more of an engineering sense to everything. I understand the reasons - most of the people who turn to Linux (not all by any means) are more technically oriented and have gone through either helping to build the operating system or have a general understanding of underlying things.

The one weakness I see, and I have seen this mentioned elsewhere, is that at times there is a lot of bashing of other operating systems, saying how much better this is than that, and that they want people to switch. The problem is, the more they try to make inroads to the other operating system's user base, the more they are going to get "average" users. You know, people who don't know squat and don't want to - they just want to use their PC. Unfortunately, the normal communications that have been in Linux forums needs to change drastically to address these more "average" users. Techo-speak, the assumptions that one does know what the command line is and how to get to it, etc., and looking all over the net for answers just won't cut it for that user base. In particular, this is an absolute beginner's forum, and as such people should be treated like they don't know anything and are trying here to find an answer. If an answer is provided that is too "easy" for the user, they will normally let you know that they understand "x" and "y" already -- but don't assume they already know "x" and "y" before you initially answer. That's how extremely novice people become confused, and confusion leads to frustration, and frustration leads to "this just isn't worth it".:)

We can all help the OS of our choice by keeping things simple and civil in these forums. People are normally just looking for help, and usually after they HAVE tried other things. Maybe not all the things you know about, but the best they could.:)

I could name several users in this forum that have understood that and given me simple step-by-step for a lot of things. These people I want to thank ever so much!

In many respects, though, your question is way beyond an "average" Windows user (Linux probably not so much so YET). I have friends who have set up basic home networks, but nothing like what you describe. While these friends are not highly knowledgeable, they did do a LOT of research before they tried. So, maybe what people are saying here is do a LOT of research first, then come back with your problems. I normally don't agree with that, but your's is not an "average" case.:)

Best of luck, and I sure hope you get everything working as you want. If I was more knowledgeable and had some money I wouldn't mind trying networked PC and network storage, etc., myself just to learn it (that's probably a dumb reason, huh?) :):)

[earobinson]

They do not, fedora trys to make thigns as easy as possiable, maybe ubuntu just does this better

[macogw]

>>Don't blame Linux, people who use Linux a lot get completely lost and confused on Windows.
That has happen to me. Some one has ask me who to do some thing on windows and I am like what? I think it was to remove a virus or some thing. Any how, you can program like PHP, HTML, MySQL, and so on. Right now I am learning PHP and MySQL at my own time. There is Python too. As many other people has said before. Linux is not windows. No by a long shot. There is some other distro's out there that is made for the %100 new be. Like Linspire for a good example. I started with Linspire and grown out of it. I was tired with windows and did not want to pay extra money for a PC with MS installed. So I got a linux O/S with Linspire installed. I did get flustered with it, but stand firm to learn Linux. Now after 5 years. I use Linux at home all the time. At work it is a windows world.
Gobby
I worked in a computer repair shop, so I had to start remembering how to use Windows again (we're talking about 4 months of all-Linux partially erasing 9 years of all-Windows), but it was a little disorienting. The lack of workspaces was really weird. One time though, this guy I was dating asked me what to do about his brother's new laptop from China with pirated Windows and a million viruses and junk. I was pretty surprised because he's a kernel hacker. He's about as computer geek as it gets! He has no idea how to use Windows at all. He used SunOS, Linux, and Mac OSX, and some other *n?xs, but that's it. I had to tell him to go download AVG Free, Spybot SD, AdAware SE, CCleaner, etc. One of my cousins put this as "yeah, that's the problem...when you ask a nerd for help, they all say 'i don't do Windows'"

[Tominator]

I have to agree with Chrimson. I've been using Ubuntu for three years now and am on the latest distro. I've forgotten specifically how i got the driver for my sound card loaded with Dapper. I've been searching and reading when I get a chance for four days now. It's still not loaded because one thing I have learned, is not to try a bunch of commands unless I am certain it is the right course of action. The Comprehensive Sound Guide is helpful, but sketchy and outdated.
The really experienced Ubuntu folks have no reason to visit or improve the pages where newbies go for help. Many of us non-programmers have to rely on things that are posted by some relative newbie who figured something out and posted it, possibly years ago. Some of us realize that most of the people who really know how to do everything on Unbuntu, long ago tired of reading repetitive newbie requests for help. What it boils down to for me is that if there is a beginners manual, and if it is regularly maintained, why is it not a sticky in the absolute beginner forum?

[earobinson]

Note: I asked the mods to please move to this thread to the community cafe since this is not a support issue

[Matakoo]

Best of luck, and I sure hope you get everything working as you want. If I was more knowledgeable and had some money I wouldn't mind trying networked PC and network storage, etc., myself just to learn it (that's probably a dumb reason, huh?) :):)

IMO, that's one of the best reasons there is to venturing into ones own unchartered territory. The end result may or may not be what you expected it to be, but at least you've learned something along the way. Kinda the opposite of the old proverb "Curiosity killed the cat" if you will :)

[23meg]

Can replies to posts on Linux forums not be aimed at the target user? i.e. tell me exactly what I need to do step by step and where I am going wrong. What program to open & where it is. Do not resort to "just type in..." Tell me where to type it. If I need to use linux in a specific way, don't just rely on "go to this download"" or "read this article".

If you don't find a certain reply helpful or understandable, just ask further. Tell people to walk you through the process step by step, or to describe things in simpler terms. They won't refuse to.

[Ralob]

Hey dude. I am pretty new myself and I just dove in headfirst with absolutely no Linux knowledge beforehand. I took the step merely on hearing countless rave reviews about Ubuntu combined with me being sick of XP. The best thing I have learned since then? Take your time, experience the OS first hand, and SEARCH is your friend. If you can't find the answer on these forums, or the Ubuntu WIKI Beginners Guide, look at google and other Ubuntu related sites to see if someone posted a bug, solution, or anything regarding your issue. Linux is something that takes time for a Windows user to get used to. It took me some time to get oriented and situated. But once you get settled, Linux becomes just as easy for you as Windows was. It is like combining apples to oranges.

My one piece of advice is to learn and understand the file naming system. For example, become fimiliar with .home and root, and so forth. Once you know the system, you will understand where certain config files and scripts are installed or located. The filing system is different than Windows, but not in a bad way. Just...different.

Remember too that we are a community here. If it was not for this community Linux would not exist, so many of us are lurking around the forums because we WANT to help you make Linux your home away from home. Don't be afraid to ask question, and when you do make sure you give as much information as possible. I apologize if some people are being inconsiderate, but people will be people no matter where you go. Just stick with it, the reward is worth the time you take to achieve it.

[mrgnash]

I intend to carry on this long slog in experienceing and evaluating the merits of Linux -v- Windows but how long will I go on? I really have absolutely no idea. I have no intention of "Buying a book to learn how to program" as I have been advised. Little metaphor for you: If I change from a BMW to a Ford, should I have to learn a completely different highway code? Don't think so.

You say you don't want a Windows clone and yet... do you go to another country and not expect to learn a new language, and/or customs, travel routes? That is a more analagous situation when it comes to migrating from one OS to another.

That said, I can barely program "hello world" and yet manage to use Linux for all my computing needs (which are many and varied). It's not that hard these days, even without learning all the fundamentals (which, admittedly, I did with Cygwin before I played with Linux proper, but still...).

If you come with the sort of attitude you demonstrated in the above, don't be surprised when you're not welcomed with open arms and wreaths of laurels; there are few things more obnoxious than a refusal to learn.

[Chrimson Scorpion]

This might sound extremely pretentious but where I travel abroad, the local population is sufficiently switched on to understand sufficient english to allow me, the unseasoned traveler with absolutely no talent for learning languages what so ever, to have a good time.

Perhaps I started this thread off with an incorrect title. Your average user (& yes I speak from experience) sees a PC as a simple tool that allows them to perform a specific task. To write a letter, record data or purchase the latest fashion from their latest internet shop.

Yes I use command line in Windows, Yes I understand basic SQL, VB & dBase but my main point here is I need somewhere to start from. I have specific needs that could be simply resolved (to some extent) using windows based applications. I have no intention of making Gates any richer so decided to plunge in to Linux.

Thing is, I did not realise just how deep the pool is. Is this my fault for not buying a book, or reading innumerable online pages of command line, root and other articles that do not reeally explain what it is that is being done? Yes I can ask someone, what does this actually do? But experience tells me (though not on this site for which I sincearly thank most people) the responce will be patronising and often insulting to my intelligence.

What I really wanted to debate was why should I as new Linux user with specific requirements for a network need to spend hours & hours of trials and tribulation just to be told, that is too difficult so start with a single install & learn what you are doing? Or as an experienced Windows user, need to spend around £1000 in licence payments to purchase sofetware I already purchased.

I fully intend to carry on however, this could be easier. that is without a doubt a statement that cannot be denied (unless of course you know different). Out of the many users I know, there are very few who have ventured in to Linux (perhaps it is lazyness) and those who have, certainly do not rave about it. As with most things, it is about preference and convenience.

Mayhaps it is also about Linux applications & support being more mainstream and accessable. A quick example, it took me 3 weeks, much email arguing and haranguing of my ISP to even get them to admit Linux drivers are avaialble for my BB Modem. There initial advice, buy one of our BB routers. Is this the Linux developers fault? no way. but it brings me back to my main point. Will mainstream service providers ever seriously consider the use of Linux when your 'average user' would find initial set up difficult?

My thanks to everyone who has contributed to this & I hope you will follow my future posts where no dopubt I will be asking for help & venting fraustrations.
:lolflag:

[ugm6hr]

Or as an experienced Windows user, need to spend around £1000 in licence payments to purchase sofetware I already purchased.
This implies all users come to Linux from Windows - which may be true in many countries, but is not the case everywhere. If you learn to compute with Linux - Windows would be equally frustrating.


I fully intend to carry on however, this could be easier. that is without a doubt a statement that cannot be denied (unless of course you know different).
For you yes. See my comment above.

Out of the many users I know, there are very few who have ventured in to Linux (perhaps it is lazyness) and those who have, certainly do not rave about it. As with most things, it is about preference and convenience.
You have to be pretty sad to rave about an OS. Do you rave about Windows? I have certainly let people know I'm very happy with my new OS.

Will mainstream service providers ever seriously consider the use of Linux when your 'average user' would find initial set up difficult?
Probably not until there are enough users that their business would suffer if they didn't support it. Unfortunately, without the marketing budgets of Apple or Microsoft, home users are never going to use Linux in droves. So support from commercial companies will remain poor indefinitely. The Dell US decision to market pre-installed Ubuntu may go a way to improving this though...

My thanks to everyone who has contributed to this & I hope you will follow my future posts where no dopubt I will be asking for help & venting fraustrations.
That's what forums are for :)

[Chrimson Scorpion]

I did not wish to imply anything and fully understand there are different operating systems in common use other than Windows.

OK, so 'rave' was a poor choice of word and no I do not run down the street expunging the virtues of the Gates software.

It will be interesting to see just how far down the open source route Dell actually do go. Will they be able to stay true to the open source philosophy or will it become a comprimise that pretends to be open source but is really a windows clone in disguise?

I hope they do succeed (but remember, with a Dell, the minute you go online & download a software update, it invalidates your software warrenty!):popcorn:

[blithen]

In some cases I would PREFER the cli over the gui. This way there is no mistakes.

[RomeReactor]

Hey dude. I am pretty new myself and I just dove in headfirst with absolutely no Linux knowledge beforehand. I took the step merely on hearing countless rave reviews about Ubuntu combined with me being sick of XP. The best thing I have learned since then? Take your time, experience the OS first hand, and SEARCH is your friend. If you can't find the answer on these forums, or the Ubuntu WIKI Beginners Guide, look at google and other Ubuntu related sites to see if someone posted a bug, solution, or anything regarding your issue. Linux is something that takes time for a Windows user to get used to. It took me some time to get oriented and situated. But once you get settled, Linux becomes just as easy for you as Windows was. It is like combining apples to oranges.

My one piece of advice is to learn and understand the file naming system. For example, become fimiliar with .home and root, and so forth. Once you know the system, you will understand where certain config files and scripts are installed or located. The filing system is different than Windows, but not in a bad way. Just...different.

Remember too that we are a community here. If it was not for this community Linux would not exist, so many of us are lurking around the forums because we WANT to help you make Linux your home away from home. Don't be afraid to ask question, and when you do make sure you give as much information as possible. I apologize if some people are being inconsiderate, but people will be people no matter where you go. Just stick with it, the reward is worth the time you take to achieve it.

I think Ralob said it best; The best way to use Linux is to acknowledge that Linux is not windows. The amount of experience you have with that other OS is not relevant enough here. What you know there does not translate all that well here, so while you are not starting from scratch (you already know that an operating system handles files and folders), that's not to say you will be able to use the same commands, or that you'll be using the same file structure, or that double-clicking on anything you download will result in an installation procedure. No amount of language/car analogies will make sense to you. Just use it with that frame of mind, and the rest will be easy. Just don't think "in windows I used to do this, why can't I do this in Linux?".


Thing is, I did not realise just how deep the pool is. Is this my fault for not buying a book, or reading innumerable online pages of command line, root and other articles that do not reeally explain what it is that is being done? Yes I can ask someone, what does this actually do? But experience tells me (though not on this site for which I sincearly thank most people) the responce will be patronising and often insulting to my intelligence.

I would imagine most Linux users don't buy Linux books when starting to learn this new OS. They just (at least) start with a dual boot system, or take the plunge and remove windows in favour of Linux. Yes, the command line suggestions one finds often seem esoteric, and without explanation. That, however, can be solved by asking the poster to elaborate on the answer. As has been said before, most people here will explain further if you ask them to.

A lot of people (myself included) installed Linux and left windows behind without being windows power users (much less programmers), and have been very satisfied with the results; why is that? we don't think in windows terms when using Linux. If your hardware isn't extremely exotic, most likely the solution to your problems is a forum search away. And in most cases, it isn't a complex one.

P.S. Sorry for the drunken rant.

[distroman]

Since this have been moved to the cafe I suppose it now subject for personal thoughts and opinions.

I understand frustration, once I spent days solving a issue, it turned out to be a simple one that could have been fixed in a matter of minuets. In fact it was so simple that I believe the reason none could help me was they simply didn't understand what I was asking for.
As it turns out the root of the problem was that not only did I not grasp the problem let alone the concept.
Most of all it was a matter of me needing to see the light so to speak it can be a long and painful process at times.

This can be very frustrating not only in terms of computing but in general life.

Not that I am venting even if this is a venting thread so if I was to be venting I would be venting that one should always try to look upon oneself before blaming others for ones own possible inadequacy not that it might be down to an inadequacy could be an genuine concern that needs venting.

As it turns out ubuntu is a good place to be if you feel lost -

Welcome to the Absolute Beginner Talk forum. This area is intended for anyone who is new to Ubuntu, or Linux on the whole.

If you want to know more about the Ubuntu operating system or the Ubuntu phenomenon, you've come to the right place. If you're thinking of switching to Ubuntu, if you want advice about computers, or if you just want help getting everyday tasks done in Ubuntu, this is also a good place to start. It's also a great place to learn how to use an Internet forum, if you've never used one before.

Because so many newcomers to Ubuntu start in this area, the following rules -- taken from the Ubuntu Forums Code of Conduct -- are strictly enforced in this area. These are paraphrased for brevity's sake; you can read the original rule on the policy page.

* There are no stupid questions (II:1). Everyone was new to Linux at some point.
* Be polite, respectful (I:1) and considerate (II:6).
* Try to communicate as clearly as possible (I:10).
* Give basic instructions, in step-by-step form when necessary (II:14). Try to avoid jargon (II:7).
* Answers like "STFU", "RTFM" or "Google it" ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES (II:8 ). Those answers will incur warnings, infractions or bans if a staff member feels it is appropriate. This is a cardinal rule of our community.

Similarly, following these suggestions will make a big difference when you ask for help.

* Try to include some information in the title of your post (II:2). A thread titled "Help a n00b" is less likely to get an answer than "Live CD installer freezes at 75% mark."
* When you ask for help, try to give as many details as you can (II:4).
* Searching the forum for your problem can often yield an answer more quickly than asking the question anew (II:3). This is a very busy forum with the largest registered user base of any single Linux distribution, so it's very likely that someone has encountered your problem before.
* Keep discussions on topic (I:7). Tacking an unrelated question onto a thread is called hijacking, and is considered in poor taste. But more importantly, fewer people are likely to see your question, which means you're less likely to get an answer. Start a new thread instead.
* Please mark your thread as resolved once a solution has been posted. Log in, edit the first post in your thread, then choose the “Check box if your thread **IS** resolved” radio box. Save your changes, and you're done.

As a side note, cross-posting (posting the same question in more than one place) is likewise considered bad form. However, because these forums move fast, bumping a thread (posting an empty reply just to move the thread to the top of the stack) is acceptable.

You may also want to check the Ubuntu wiki or Unofficial Ubuntu Starter Guide (chose 6.06 or 6.10 in the “Ubuntu” section) for assistance.

Finally, if you need immediate help and can't wait for a forum reply, consider asking your question on IRC. If you do not know how to use IRC, you may find this thread helpful: Irc?

The staff here strives to make everyone welcome, and to make every Ubuntu newcomer's experience a postive one. We hope you enjoy Ubuntu and that you become a respected member of the community.

-- bodhi.zazen, Beginner Team leader
but it would be a mistake to think all are alike -

Q) I am a complete Linux beginner. Should I use Arch?

A) This question has had much debate. Arch is targeted at more-advanced Linux users, but some people feel "Arch is a good place to start". If you are a beginner and want to use Arch, just be warned that you MUST be willing to learn. Before asking any question, do your own independent research by googling, searching the Wiki, and searching the forum (and reading past FAQs). If you do that, you should be fine. Also know that many people do not want to answer the same basic questions over and over, so you are exposing yourself to that environment. There is a reason these resources were created/made available to you. You could reference the ArchLinux Newbie Guide.

I like both approaches and could not be with out either one at times I need one more then the other but so it goes.

Take a deep breath and enjoy the moment you have been “ubuntued” - ubuntu flower children 1 evil cruel world 0.

[Naralas]

I have read the first post.

I did not bother with the replies.

I imagine they are all to the affect of "wow wow wow buddy stop now" (trying to sound above you) followed by "the point YOU missed and are WRONG about is"

Truth is, if people are going to switch to Linux, the communities suck. I mean, these people are great, but if you talk down to Linux and you also show some sore spot they can attack you with, they will blast you for it in a subtle, ego filled way that they must just not notice they do.

However, as a tribute to new-users I never use anything CLI on my laptop. It is what I take out in the world with me. I want to show it to people and say not: "this is what Linux can do" but "this is what YOU can do with Linux"

Mostly, I have never had a hardware problem under Linux (from video to wireless) so it's not been a problem. I use Add/Remove and Synaptic Package Manager (System | Administration) to download. Aside from that I downloaded skype for Ubuntu from the official website. Flawless install.

I also got Wine-doors and Pidgin from getdeb.com instead of using apt-get like I normally do.

This OS can be used in simple-mode as it were. People will just insist on keeping a pickle up their butts in order to tell you why you SHOULDN'T (see: no good reason)

I don't read Ubuntu help, it is something way to old for me anymore, but what it should start with is this:

Welcome to Ubuntu
What's Different < Link

Explaining .deb files, why you need a .deb file specific to your flavor of Linux. Explaining the two places it's easiest to install software from, explaining how to share a folder, how to browse an MS network, other than that, if you understand point and click, you should already figure out the rest. Everything is labeled well enough.

A book called Ubuntu for All or something should be released.

[distroman]

I did not bother with the replies.
Don't get me wrong I am not a big poster either but I do read at times I miss stuff but I try.
You should read the thread seems to me that many misconception begin out with exactly that mistake.

I imagine they are all to the affect of "wow wow wow buddy stop now" (trying to sound above you) followed by "the point YOU missed and are WRONG about is"

Truth is, if people are going to switch to Linux, the communities suck. I mean, these people are great, but if you talk down to Linux and you also show some sore spot they can attack you with, they will blast you for it in a subtle, ego filled way that they must just not notice they do.
This I can't get my head around at all so ill leave it alone but yes some places has much less patience they are in there right to be so if they wish.

However, as a tribute to new-users I never use anything CLI on my laptop. It is what I take out in the world with me. I want to show it to people and say not: "this is what Linux can do" but "this is what YOU can do with Linux"
This is well put I thought that was what ubuntu was all about?
Sorry but if you see these forums as unfriendly and stock up you need 1. to start getting more around 2. start reading at least as much as you post. :)

[vexorian]

If you don't have enough time to read, don't write.

Either way, I think CLI is waaay underrated, eventually the user should only care about pseudo-intuitive interfaces when he is starting, the CLI is a tool that improves your efficiency regardless of how much GUI options are out there, I hereby think that to make a basic ubuntu setup I don't need a terminal, but to customize it to the extreme it is really useful, it also gets very good when you get into it.

This said, I think CLI is a feature, not a bug, and I feel offended when people bash it for no good reason besides their belief of what friendly is. This said I don't think it makes any sense at all to stop using the CLI just for "respect for newcomers" I will use whatever tool is more effective for the job I want to do. I also think that people really inadvertently have a very LAME superiority complex in which, they really think that the rest of the world is stupid or limited in learning skills, to say that most people are incapable of using the terminal is actually an act of underrating the rest of the world.

People of the past used CLI all the time, want to open wordperfect? Type wordperfect , want to move a file? type move source location. forgot anything? type help. And they survived... as a matter of fact most of them got really confused when they got taught windows...

I don't really think there is any friendly OS out there, humanity has yet achieved just things that look pretty but are still rather illogical to use.

[feravolo]

In the event that the person who started this thread is still reading the responses. I would like to throw in my two cents, however I only read a few of the other replies.

You Don't Learn Anything in 15 Minutes

If you have been using some other operating system for a while and switch to Linux, you have to accept there is going to be a learning curve and it is going to be longer then "15 minutes".

Buy a Decent Book

Once upon a time computer software included printed documentation, these days you need to find a decent book to replace this non-existent documentation. Go to the local bookstore and pick up one that you like the authors writing style and explains the things that you are going to need to know. I happen to like one called "Hacking Ubuntu" by Dr. Neal Kraetz, you may like a different one.

Learn the Rules of the Road

Everyone should know where everything is stored on their computer. You also will need to know a few terminal commands, since you may find out that some things are easier to do from the terminal.

The Super User (a.k.a "the root")

Both the top of the file system and the super user are called "the root", when you use ubuntu the "sudo" command allows you to execute commands as the super user. You may also create a password for the super user and login as "root". The reason that you have to understand about the super user is that unlike other operating systems, files are protected by default. Which is why you have to install new software as the super user and also why Linux is better protected against malicious code (e.g. virues)

Well this should get you going for now or scare you back to your other operating system. If you want to run a mixed environment remember Linux does play well with other operating systems and you have to set a password for samba to share files.

Peace

[Dimitriid]

There is a degree of truth to the reasoning and the comunity: for whatever reason ( sometimes practical, sometimes not ) any support that you get or find on the sites always involves doing things manually and fail to mention you can do the same things graphically. I edited my sources.list files tons and tons of times, I did not find anything particulary hard about it since I do have a programming background and new how to "comment" things and what does that concept means, etc.

But not once I saw somebody said: "Go to System>Administration>Software Sources>Third Party Software Tab, click on Add and paste this address" I had to find that out on my own.

Regardless of what your personal opinion and feelings on GUI vs CLI are, As somebody who spends HOURS describing how to change configuration settings over the phone 5 days at week its 10x easier to explain that GUI to add sources than to get a user to do it on a terminal and then gedit, unless you do have extensive experience and/or programming background.

I wish I was more experienced to start rewritting tutorials for people with screenshots and descriptions of the tools already available in ubuntu but sadly I have to get more familiar myself first.

[B0rsuk]

Yes I expected Linux to be different, if I did not want different why change from Windows

Wrong question. Linux was never Windows. If all you want is free Windows, you might want to look somewhere else.

[distroman]

In the event that the person who started this thread is still reading the responses.
The OP posted again and put the thread to live so I guess he is.

There is a degree of truth to the reasoning and the comunity: for whatever reason ( sometimes practical, sometimes not ) any support that you get or find on the sites always involves doing things manually and fail to mention you can do the same things graphically. I edited my sources.list files tons and tons of times, I did not find anything particulary hard about it since I do have a programming background and new how to "comment" things and what does that concept means, etc.

But not once I saw somebody said: "Go to System>Administration>Software Sources>Third Party Software Tab, click on Add and paste this address" I had to find that out on my own.

Regardless of what your personal opinion and feelings on GUI vs CLI are, As somebody who spends HOURS describing how to change configuration settings over the phone 5 days at week its 10x easier to explain that GUI to add sources than to get a user to do it on a terminal and then gedit, unless you do have extensive experience and/or programming background.

I wish I was more experienced to start rewritting tutorials for people with screenshots and descriptions of the tools already available in ubuntu but sadly I have to get more familiar myself first.
Not to be dramatic but I am sure you don't need to be a programmer to understand the sources.list I can say this because I am not one.

I (rediscovered would be right I believe) >Administration>Software Sources> not to long ago and ill be using it myself for me it's not about "to be, or not to be". It's a learning process.

I remember reading about supporting with “gui vs cli” some time ago here on the forum seems there was some disagreement to what was the best approach personally I truly don't care either way as I see it.
However I feel fairly sure that most new to linux would be more comfortable with gui then cli and it would be more in line with ubuntu as I see it so I suppose that would be just the way to go about.
If I try to help someone ill remember that, not that it's going to be hard in any way I feel very at home in a gui.

To be blond what all this really boils down to, if you try to help someone you should do it with the best intention if not you should stay out of it. I just find it hard to tip toe around unreasonable it's just as bad as rtfm imo, maybe it's a balance just like gui and cli maybe it's not.

[aysiu]

I don't know why Chrimson Scorpion's thread got moved out of Testimonials and Experiences, but if it's in the Cafe, it'd be more appropriate to be part of this thread, which asks an open-ended question (do you have to be a programmer?) instead of presupposing an answer (you have to be a programmer... but why?). So: merged.

[iansane]

Obviously the issue is whether linux is difficult to set up and/or use. The language used was purposed done so in order to make the person Aysiu disagrees with look foolish. Aysiu has his/her-self said in the past that he/she is not a programmer. Since he/she uses uses Ubuntu, then obviously you don't have to be a programmer to use Ubuntu.

When you ask a question you already know the answer to, it's called a leading question, and it's not meant to foster conversation but rather as an underhanded insult.

OK did I miss something? I think it is a good question and Im not a good judge of people just by reading there posts. I don't see it as trying to make anyone look foolish.

I say no you don't have to be but I know where the question comes from. Windows users and people new to real computing like myself, see anything other than clicking on an icon (terminal) as programming. I know it's not, becuase I did some visual basic, but I can see where someone new to it would say, it all looks the same. Typing strange words and commands to make your computer do something seems a lot like programming if you don't know better.

It is still difficult though at times.