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allforcarrie
June 20th, 2005, 08:53 AM
I have got a couple people started and a few interested. I might have to order Some more CD's to hand out.

poofyhairguy
June 20th, 2005, 08:56 AM
Do you try to get people to use linux?

Yes...But I set it up for them. Codecs and everything.

polo_step
June 20th, 2005, 09:22 AM
No, because though I like the idea of Linux very much, I don't feel able to give them the support needed for all the unforseen stuff that seems to still come up on Linux install & orientation. Ubuntu is the first distro I've gotten to work, though I've been struggling to get a Linux distro installed since about 1998. It's always been a total nosebleeding failure for me, so I still don't know enough to help anyone else. It also has lost a lot of the edge it once had over the Windows products, with the introduction of more stable Microsoft operating systems...

HOWEVER...

With the onset of the absolutely horrific Windows/IE malware infestations that are getting worse every single day, Linux has an entirely new justification and raison d’ętre. Malware has made the casual vandalism of old virus scriptkiddying profitable.

How long Linux will remain fairly immune from this filth is anyone's guess, but if it just does so for a year or two until better countermeasures and aggressive legislation can control the worst of the malware situation, the conversion will have been entirely worthwhile.

So...I've ordered some Ubuntu CDs to strew around among folks.

allforcarrie
June 20th, 2005, 09:36 AM
It irritates me that windows owns the market for OS's and most people think all that exists is windows.

poofyhairguy
June 20th, 2005, 09:49 AM
It irritates me that windows owns the market for OS's and most people think all that exists is windows.

Thats why Apple is making its move.

polo_step
June 20th, 2005, 09:55 AM
It irritates me that windows owns the market for OS's and most people think all that exists is windows.
I was probably the last person to go from CP/M to MSDOS and almost certainly the last person to go from DOS to windows (I think it was DOS v6 directly to Win98 ).

In that context, I'm miles ahead of schedule to convert to Linux! :-P

allforcarrie
June 20th, 2005, 10:14 AM
I was probably the last person to go from CP/M to MSDOS and almost certainly the last person to go from DOS to windows (I think it was DOS v6 directly to Win98 ).

In that context, I'm miles ahead of schedule to convert to Linux! :-P

That is amazing. I am 23, I have a GUI ever since i have been using a computer. I remember having a DOS 486 in the house but i never used it.

sapo
June 20th, 2005, 10:28 AM
I do.. i try to convince everybody i know to install linux...

but the sad thing is that almost every single one end up returning to windows because of small things like games, or cause they cant do some simple things in linux ](*,)

benplaut
June 20th, 2005, 10:46 AM
i liberaly hand out LiveCDs to everyone who mentions the word "slow" or "virus"... but almost never install CDs.

if someone doesn't back up, and repartitions over their windows files, i don't want to have anything to do with it.

if they like the livecd enough to want to install, i give them Xandros OCE

sorry to be a traitor, but Xandros is rather good for Windows switchers :)

polo_step
June 20th, 2005, 11:09 AM
I do.. i try to convince everybody i know to install linux...

but the sad thing is that almost every single one end up returning to windows because of small things like games, or cause they cant do some simple things in linux .
Two words: Dual boot.

Of all the trouble I had getting Linux to work over the past seven years or so, dual boot wasn't a hassle -- except when CorelLinux v1.000 helpfully overwrote my existing Windows partitions.

I've outdone myself this time; I have two boxes running on the desk with a KVM adapter. I was wandering through Fry's a month ago and they were having a one-day loss-leader sale on computers for US$99.99, with Linux installed and running. I had to see if that was possible, so I bought one out of curiosity, It did indeed work, but it had Linspire on it and it took me one trip to their site to learn that they didn't want anyone using the distro who wasn't subscribing to their pay CNR service, which is nothing but glorified Synaptic. "Pay up or get out! Whaddaya think this is, Linux or something?"

The installation was utterly stripped, and you have to pay to build it up and maintain it. Linspire is a scam, pure and simple.

Anyhow, I've installed Ubuntu on that little box without a hitch (other than having a monitor refresh rate I feel is too hot that I can't adjust down), and after getting rid of that hideous wallpaper and dung-brown theme (axiom of American marketing: "Don't market a brown or green product.") I'm pretty happy. I'm going to get some more memory and a second HD for this box.

somuchfortheafter
June 20th, 2005, 11:44 AM
if you can use synaptic as it is, then linspire is not for you. Linspire is for people who cannot, like paying a mechanic for car repair, granted if you knew what you were doing it would cost much less but you dont lol. Also I have switched a few friends, roomates, and hopefully everyone at work from fedora to ubuntu now that my ship-it cds came...

dolny
June 20th, 2005, 12:57 PM
I'm trying to convert some people, I installed Linux for one guy, he is toying with it right now. Oh, I installed Mandrake a couple months ago on another friend's comp. Anyway I think that they won't convert but I can die tryin' ;)

Gtaylor
June 20th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Our College LUG (http://clemsonlinux.org) is very active with this. We hold multiple installfests per semester and have even most recently harangled our technical organization into offering a Windows/Ubuntu dual boot option for school laptops next year. We expect the number of Ubuntu/Linux users on campus to skyrocket due to our background as an engineering school (a lot of classes are beginning to require Linux).

So to answer your question, Yes. And there's nothing better than hearing someone come back a few weeks after an InstallFest and saying, "I don't know what I ever did without Linux, this is great."

jdong
June 20th, 2005, 03:46 PM
It depends on the type of person. I got a bunch of Windows Nerd kinds of people around me trying out LiveCD's and simple HD installs, and they're doing fine on their own.

I also have one person who's more of the hold-my-hand-and-walk-me-through type, and it's more and more of a PITA to deal with...

oh well :)

skoal
June 20th, 2005, 05:01 PM
Phase 2 of "operation 3F" is now underway. "3F" is the secret codeword for "Family Flip Flop" - the conversion of all family members from Windows to Linux.

My brother has been recently having problems with hardware on his windows box. I 'snaked' 10 gigs from his last partition, installed Kubuntu on there, and now his DVD-R burner works as advertised. I also told him there are much better P2P clients on linux than just using 'winMX'. He's hooked. He's sucking down my 'snake oil' faster than I can pitch it to him. That's 3 down, 4 to go...

Once phase 2 is complete, "operation 4F" will commence. Yes, indeed...my "Friends" are next...

muahahah...

poor suckers...never know what hit 'em...

\\//_

Nu-Buntu
June 20th, 2005, 05:06 PM
I was probably the last person to go from CP/M to MSDOS and almost certainly the last person to go from DOS to windows (I think it was DOS v6 directly to Win98 ).

In that context, I'm miles ahead of schedule to convert to Linux! :-P

Nothing wrong with DOS. I still use it and several DOS programs on occasion. Borland Paradox for DOS is a great database. I also still have /fr burned into my fingers' memory (DOS spreadsheet jockeys will know what I am talking about).

DOS is certainly more stable than any version of Windows, along with installs are just copying files to their own directory. Knowing DOS also makes learning the Linux command line a lot easier.

I am enjoying the power of the LCL. It is like DOS on steroids.

Brunellus
June 20th, 2005, 06:13 PM
That is amazing. I am 23, I have a GUI ever since i have been using a computer. I remember having a DOS 486 in the house but i never used it.

What a difference a year makes. I'm 24. We got our first computer at home when I was in kindergarten: Dad's huge steel-clamshell Kaypro laptop. As I recall, it must have run something like DOS 2--he mostly used it to type stuff for work on Word*Star.

Next was some nameless PC-XT clone, running DOS 3.3. It had a monochrome Amber CRT. I played Othello with it, also played what must have been Zork or Zork-like textgames.

Then we got the most awesome computer I have ever owned: A 386...with a VGA screen and a SoundBlaster...and a whopping 4 MB of RAM (as I recall). I got to be very handy with various hacks for upper memory managers so that I could play WingCommander on this.

Once Windows 95 came out, it was impossible to really command-line anything in Windows, and I stopped understanding what was going on with the computer. Linux brings me back to my beginnings in that respect.

poofyhairguy
June 20th, 2005, 06:23 PM
It depends on the type of person.


This is true. I find Linux is good for two types of people:

1. Those that are REALLY clueless with computers, and don't want to do that much with them. All they want is to surf the web and check their email in peace. Maybe a document every now and then. Ubuntu works great if you set it up for them. The best are people that are so green that they can't even use Windows (aka it turned into a malware box within a week because of IE). They LOVE Ubuntu. More than me sometimes. I have a few friends like this, and they love Linux the most. One tries to spread it despite the fact that he doesn't really know what he is doing. I help him in this cause. :) This is where I see the potential for growth. I love this kind of computer user, and I want to help them out.

2. Super nerds. I guess a lot of us that like to tinker, love having a commandline, love having tons of free software in synaptic and are willing to do a little more to get hardware to work or something. Or we are willing to do research to buy hardware that works.


But I find that the people in between don't really like Linux. Gamers don't like the lack of native games. People that think they are Windows Wizards (but really aren't) don't like the fact that they have to relearn everything. Older people that have a stronger grasp of computers might not like the fact that you just can't go to Best Buy and pick up some new hardware or software and have it "just work."

I honestly don't know if Linux will ever make the people in the middle happy.

escuchamezz
June 20th, 2005, 07:50 PM
r

jdodson
June 20th, 2005, 08:04 PM
I don't do anything beyond handing someone a CD and pointing them to documentation. Reason?

I don't have time to walk people though GNU/Linux land. I do have time to help people and point them in the right direction. I can say "you know, GNU/Linux serves 99% of my computing needs."

However, my involvement stops there. I also don't want to "force" someone into running it, and have them freak out and re install windows. People need to make the transition on thier own, and then own the move as the best possible option. Else, they return to the proprietary world.

trash
June 20th, 2005, 08:21 PM
I do.. i try to convince everybody i know to install linux...

but the sad thing is that almost every single one end up returning to windows because of small things like games, or cause they cant do some simple things in linux ](*,)

Likewise... I also made a bunch of Ubuntu stocking stuffers for xmas gifts 15 or 20 of em and as far as I know only one person tried a livecd and was impressed, but since he repairs windows boxes for a living thats as far as he went. Oh there was one other person who tried the cd, but they thought it was a dvd porno(because of the Ubuntu cover/semi naked people)... so needless to say they were NOT impressed.

poofyhairguy
June 20th, 2005, 08:24 PM
i tell people to stay away from it because it sucks - and it does unless you want a server or are too stupid to know where to download windows illegally from.

Not everybody wants to be a pirate, and not everybody wants windows. Especially because you have to pirate some anti-virus software as well.

aysiu
June 20th, 2005, 08:29 PM
And, of course, when you know where to download Windows programs illegally, they never come bundled with spyware or adware. Linux sucks so bad people have to register at Linux forums just to post how much it sucks. Hm.

Well, I have to agree about the middle group. I recently installed Linux on a friend's computer so that it could be a little faster (XP was deathly slow on the 128 MB of RAM). She's in the middle group--a little computer-savvy, but not enough to really get to know the computer, just enough to be skeptical of new things. I've felt the pressure to have everything "just work." I had to do quite a bit of tinkering to get her printer working (one of the few drivers not in the driver database), her Hotmail going with Thunderbird, etc.

Luckily, for me, the printer manufacturer had a Linux .tar.gz for the driver. But Hotmail annoys me to no end. I don't use Hotmail, but I know a lot of other people do, and they're not likely to change email clients just because Hotmail is difficult to set up in Linux.

People don't want to hear excuses--they want things to "just work." And, unfortunately, if Windows doesn't "just work," they still stick with it because it's standard and easy to get compatible software for.

No, I don't evangelize Linux. There have to be very specific circumstances for me to push Linux:
1. The computer's hardware is so old that even Windows 98 would have a hard time working on it. Anyone who wants to keep this hardware would be willing to put up with another person tinkering with Damn Small Linux, Feather Linux, or Puppy Linux to get it working again.

2. The person hates Windows (frustrated with spyware, etc.) but is too cheap to get a Mac.

3. The person is actually interested in Linux but is afraid to try it. I guess this isn't really evangelizing. I'd help facilitate the trial, though.

If they happen to be over and see your Linuxed computer and say, "Wow! What is that? Can I get that?" then you may have someone. Otherwise, you just let people be.

daveisadork
June 20th, 2005, 08:44 PM
I don't generally, but my dad does now :grin: I moved my parents over to Ubuntu about a month ago (from XP), and they really like it. They're not computer savvy people (although my father is an eBay guru), but my dad has already called me a couple times asking for live CDs to give to his friends. It's nice because I can do simple maintenance and troubleshooting via SSH.

poofyhairguy
June 20th, 2005, 08:53 PM
Well, I have to agree about the middle group. I recently installed Linux on a friend's computer so that it could be a little faster (XP was deathly slow on the 128 MB of RAM). She's in the middle group--a little computer-savvy, but not enough to really get to know the computer, just enough to be skeptical of new things. I've felt the pressure to have everything "just work." I had to do quite a bit of tinkering to get her printer working (one of the few drivers not in the driver database), her Hotmail going with Thunderbird, etc.

Awww....thats the worse. Some little feature that some MS product gives off that is not actually better than the Linux solution, but can't be done in Linux. I leave those people alone.



If they happen to be over and see your Linuxed computer and say, "Wow! What is that? Can I get that?" then you may have someone. Otherwise, you just let people be.

True. I have found that trying to sell Ubuntu might be worse than just letting people be.

Gir
June 20th, 2005, 10:33 PM
I give away live CDs and laugh at people when windows inevitably gets bogged down by viruses, spyware, mounting costs, not-quite-up-to-speed illegal software, botched upgrades, Windows ME in general, and all sorts of fun. A friend says "I took my computer in and it had bad ram" and I say "why didn't you use gnoppix like i said?" Mainly, I try to tell people what windows does wrong, and they can follow if they want. And i brag a lot how i rarely i experience problems.

I'm a total SOB. But they use windows, so i feel no pity.

RastaMahata
June 20th, 2005, 11:10 PM
I do.. i try to convince everybody i know to install linux...

but the sad thing is that almost every single one end up returning to windows because of small things like games, or cause they cant do some simple things in linux ](*,)
well, at least you didnt get the "Hey! Linux sucks! It cant run Exes!" :(

jdong
June 20th, 2005, 11:20 PM
I would never DARE to convert a Windows user to Linux by just reformatting their hard drives and installing Linux only... You gotta give them Windows as a fallback.. It took me a good 6 months before I was weaned off Windows :)

Jenda
June 20th, 2005, 11:23 PM
I have two full converts and working on about four more...

Brunellus
June 21st, 2005, 03:04 PM
I would never DARE to convert a Windows user to Linux by just reformatting their hard drives and installing Linux only... You gotta give them Windows as a fallback.. It took me a good 6 months before I was weaned off Windows :)

6 months?!

Wow. It took me 6 weeks, maybe. Much easier to do it if your bridges are burnt behind you, though. In my case, that meant linux as the only means to getting an unbootable WinME box to run again.

The funny thing is that initially it started out as a rescue effort...but then I decided that, actually, I didn't really want to install Windows again.

If I get a new computer, it'll probably have Windows preinstalled on it. That situation will persist for a few hours (long enough for me to generate the all-important recovery disks)...and then I'll make it a dualbooting Ubuntu/XP box. If it weren't for those pesky games, I'd be 100% FOSS now.

KiwiNZ
June 21st, 2005, 10:36 PM
I have a biscuit tin on my office lounge table at work with Ubuntu CD's in it and a sign please take one.

phen
June 21st, 2005, 11:04 PM
Hello!

My mother is now a proud part of poofyhairguys number 1 kind of linux users: i edited her gnome so that she only has the 5 programs she needs. Windows was totally packed with strange programs because she tried to install a wallpaper from a free-wallpaper site once. now she is happily browsing user photos in this forum, has got a clean desktop user interface. nothing breaks, no wierd spy ad etc ware gets installed. - super!

my opinion to poofyhairguy's middle group: as soon as more linux compatible drivers are released for linux, the middle group could slowly get interested in linux. gamers - well - they are difficult :-)

but also a special kind of professionals are difficult: other students want to use their cad software, free numerical calculation programs, etc. They are given away free from the university - for windows. On the other hand: In the real industry, all this software is mostly running on unixes on mainframes.

poofyhairguy
June 21st, 2005, 11:11 PM
my opinion to poofyhairguy's middle group: as soon as more linux compatible drivers are released for linux, the middle group could slowly get interested in linux. gamers - well - they are difficult :-)


I say the gamers will come over second to last.

kaaredyret
June 21st, 2005, 11:23 PM
I don't... unless people are pretty hardcore nerds. One friend tried Ubuntu, 64-bit crashed and the 32-bit version did not work well with his 3Com NIC. He had to enable his soundcard ( Soundblaster) manually as well... tricky. And this is why I do not recommend Linux, configuration of Linux and installation of programs is still far from good enough for recommending Linux to Joe Avarage... but were are getting close to that day. My friend fought for days to configure sound, Windows XP works! That is what counts. I was rescued by my experience with the command line interface from the Amiga... I really would like to be spared from the Terminal, but I managed to configure my Ubuntu. My friend would have been helpless.

In many cases the recommandation would be pointless... with 90% of all software programmed for Windows only, they simply cannot replace Windows with Linux.

But many people can, and many people need a free OS and free software. It is just not everybody, so save the preaching for the true audience. :-P

I am really excited about coming versions of Ubuntu, Scribus, InkScape and OpenOffice.org but I do not expect them to replace my Windows box any time soon.

RastaMahata
June 22nd, 2005, 12:28 AM
I gave up.

I always get complains like:
- It would be too hard to use (Some people think that its only console based!)
- It's hard to install software on it (well... they're used to download installers...)
- It's hard to set up (Yeah, windows just works)
- "Where are my programs?!" or "Why cant I run exes!" (Yeah, I was about to punch him)
- People dont believe me when I tell them it doesnt have spyware / virii
- Games & multimedia & media formats & AUDIO (Important facts that Linux coders dont care about and should! This is the worst point of linux).

Yeah, its stable, fast, free (as in beer - speech), but lately, users care about "I just want everything to work!"

kaaredyret
June 22nd, 2005, 12:54 AM
Of course they do; and generally everything works in the competing product. People don't a car to become a mecanic, but a dish washing machine to become dish washing repair man etc. etc.

If Linux was a commercial product and we shaked our head at the behaviour of the potential costumers, that used the competing product, we would soon loose our jobs.

Operating systems do not require much from the users in this century and the coming centuries. Computers and software is supposed to work for us and make us focus on using the software..

I think that most computer enthusiats that want to play with their OS have had some contact with Linux; but to confuse them, yourself and the casual users of computers is a major error. You will fail.

A winning strategy is to make a product that is better than the competition. The costumers must agree upon the term 'better'. Who wants a spyware free operating system that cannot run the software they need? Who wants a free operating system that cannot install software on?

I feel this "it is their own fault" attitude whenever I enter the circle of the Linux enthusiats and I hear them discussing why Linux is not used by 'ordinary people'. Fine. Loose the game. Or else... join in and help understand the potential users needs and habbits, usability, human-computer interaction, psychology! And win?

Actually, I would find it very exciting to be working on Ubuntu. How is it to work on Windows/MS Office? "Great, we conquered the world. Now what?" - ZzZzZzz

sapo
June 22nd, 2005, 01:06 AM
I gave up.

I always get complains like:
- It would be too hard to use (Some people think that its only console based!)
- It's hard to install software on it (well... they're used to download installers...)
- It's hard to set up (Yeah, windows just works)
- "Where are my programs?!" or "Why cant I run exes!" (Yeah, I was about to punch him)
- People dont believe me when I tell them it doesnt have spyware / virii
- Games & multimedia & media formats & AUDIO (Important facts that Linux coders dont care about and should! This is the worst point of linux).

Yeah, its stable, fast, free (as in beer - speech), but lately, users care about "I just want everything to work!"

i could make my words mine.. but i didnt give up yet.. i m still fighting ](*,)

aysiu
June 22nd, 2005, 01:35 AM
Windows XP works! That is what counts.
...
In many cases the recommandation would be pointless... with 90% of all software programmed for Windows only, they simply cannot replace Windows with Linux.


I totally disagree with this. Windows XP works because it's usually pre-configured for the hardware and vice versa. For example, my eMachines computer doesn't even come with a Windows XP disk. It comes with a set of three general recovery disks. If you boot with the first one, it'll prompt you for the second one, which will prompt you for the third one. After that, XP is reinstalled with all the drivers configured and some basic programs installed (to get the DVD player working, for example). My Dell laptop comes with a Windows XP CD and a CD full of all the necessary drivers to get the laptop working on XP. Can you imagine if hardware manufacturers did not tailor their software to XP, and you had to do a fresh XP install and find all the drivers yourself? It'd be a nightmare. The truth is that XP isn't an easier operating system to install or use--it just is the norm, and there are driving forces to get it to work with almost everything.

Also, about the software thing. Honestly, 90% of the people I know do not need Windows-specific software. Sure, there's the odd person who has a program that's Windows-only (like MediaShout) or that's heavily into PC gaming (personally, I don't know any PC gamers, but I know they're out there). Almost everyone I know (family, friends, co-workers) wants to do these things on their computers, and they can all be done in Linux:

* check and send email
* surf the internet safely
* type the occasional document or use the occasional spreadsheet
* burn CDs (data or music)
* rip CDs, organize music
* play DVDs

That's it. Believe it or not, that's what most people want to do with computers, and all of that can be done with almost any distro out there. What we really need is some big name company (like HP, Dell, Gateway, etc.) selling desktops and computers pre-loaded and pre-configured with Linux. HP has already decided to sell computers configured for Ubuntu (not in the US), but it's not pre-loading the OS. If people can buy a commercial computer (reputation) with Linux pre-loaded (no fuss) and do the things they want to do on a computer (convenience), they'll do it. The problem is--Microsoft or not--people do not want to install operating systems.

I have a friend whose PC is totally bogged down with spyware. She doesn't want to switch to Linux, so I told her the best solution is for her to do a clean install of Windows. She was very hesitant about doing this, thinking the solution too extreme, even though it would have taken only a few hours.

Linux just works. We just need a computer manufacturer to back it.

TristanMike
June 22nd, 2005, 02:31 AM
I'm not going to try get people to use Linux, but I will try and show people another solution, a working solution. I knew nothing about Linux except the name for many years and have been branded thinking it's satan's second cousin. But a few months ago, when my friend swore by it, and said they were using Ubuntu, and prasied it so much, I thought why not give it a shot? I ordered my CDs and a couple weeks ago I got them. Now, I got it installed with a little trouble, but it's installed, and I still really have no idea on how to do really anything except:
* check and send email
* surf the internet safely
* type the occasional document or use the occasional spreadsheet
* burn CDs (data or music) (Haven't tried)
* rip CDs, organize music
* play DVDs (ironing some things out)

But for the most part it's suiting my needs. Sure, I might keep my windows alive just to play the odd game, but what's a reboot to windowsxp? It's pretty quick when not loaded with crap, or there is Window emulators, not good enough to start toying with that yet, but in due time. Aside from that, the more I learn about Linux, the easier it will be. I just appreciate all the help this forum provides. Thanx to the Ubuntu staff, and all of the people on the forums! :)
TristanMike

XDevHald
June 22nd, 2005, 02:37 AM
You should see me at work. I work at Dell and you have no idea how many guys run linux, it's awesome. The only thing that sucks is that we run windows on ALL of our desktops and notebooks and have to use windows to give the user(s) a much friendly feeling of Dell in windows style :p

Optimal Aurora
June 22nd, 2005, 02:39 AM
Yes, I try to convince instructors and friends to use Ubuntu over Fedora or Windows because of the stability and other reasons...

aysiu
June 22nd, 2005, 03:07 AM
You should see me at work. I work at Dell and you have no idea how many guys run linux, it's awesome. The only thing that sucks is that we run windows on ALL of our desktops and notebooks and have to use windows to give the user(s) a much friendly feeling of Dell in windows style :p

So, is there any reason Dell doesn't give you a choice of operating system? You can customize just about everything else, but when it comes to OS, it's either XP Home or XP Pro.

polo_step
June 22nd, 2005, 03:13 AM
So, is there any reason Dell doesn't give you a choice of operating system?
Yeah, minimized customer support. One OS, less answers.

XDevHald
June 22nd, 2005, 03:13 AM
So, is there any reason Dell doesn't give you a choice of operating system? You can customize just about everything else, but when it comes to OS, it's either XP Home or XP Pro.
They do this because it's not going to be an option for all desktops or notebooks. XP Pro/Media Center/Home Edition are ALWAYS going to be the 3 options of this OS choice for users who get a Dell.

If they will ever give the option to us linux users, we will never know until Michael Dell actually knows this would be a huge asset to the distribution of the products he sells. I've never had a customer come up to me asking about linux, why? because it's not a reliable resource for them like windows is. "Get it Done The Easy Way" is what users who don't find linux a valuable tool for the OS of their choice to run like windows is, in which windows to them is a simple load it up, download it I am done type of OS.

Ubuntu is running on new laptops and desktops as we speak already installed, but Dell does not have this product of OS in-line for the distribution product of OS choice for their customers.

To be honest, I think if we had an option of Linux or Windows to be chosen, more confusion would rise for Dell and the customers would probably choose the wrong move of the OS of their choice and blame us for their approval of their OS choice.

Optimal Aurora
June 22nd, 2005, 03:15 AM
As my instructor stated in class one day, Microsoft told deal they would charge them double for the desktop version of Windows if they didn't get rid of Linux on the desktop systems... Now they don't offer it... However, on the server side they do offer it (I think), but that's because Microsoft influence in servers isn't that good...

polo_step
June 22nd, 2005, 03:30 AM
Of course they do...Computers and software is supposed to work for us and make us focus on using the software.

Absolutely. I am not going to pull the cart while the horse rides.

It's that simple.

[And, apropos to the original question, I'm not going to pull someone else's cart while he and his horse ride and all he does is yell to hurry up.]

When XP became so utterly crippled with spyware/malware that was about three steps ahead of the countermeasures against it with that situation only getting worse, the concomitant increase in Linux useability finally caused an intersection of vector lines in the O/S Grief Graph. :smile:

With all the distros, I could pick and choose until I found one that actually worked for me with minimum hassle. Ubuntu was flawless on my test system, but had a little monitor hassle on the real one...no matter, it was quickly fixed.

There are still some idiocies from a user standpoint, like having necessary entries commented out of lists, but these are not insurmountable for future releases.

drummer
June 22nd, 2005, 03:46 AM
If someone asks about linux or complains about Windows, I'll recommend Ubuntu (or Linux in general) and offer Ubuntu CDs (Live & install), I've given a couple away. I won't push them into it if they're happy with what they're using, but I do give them a choice :) . It's usually only my more geeky and l33t friends that ask though.

bill
June 22nd, 2005, 04:43 AM
I tried to get family and friends to try Ubuntu but no luck acouple of them said that it's to hard to figure out how to download and install programs one person said he likes going to the store and buying software that meets his level of computer experience and not spending two hours trying to figure out how to install it.my sister thinks linux is outdated for some reason,so i gave up i like Ubuntu so much that i removed windows from my computer all together i will probably never go back to windows
But microsoft products are easier to use for most people and that's what most people want regardless of the viruses and spyware and i think microsoft windows will always be the #1 operating system.
Bill

Brunellus
June 22nd, 2005, 05:12 AM
I tried to get family and friends to try Ubuntu but no luck acouple of them said that it's to hard to figure out how to download and install programs one person said he likes going to the store and buying software that meets his level of computer experience and not spending two hours trying to figure out how to install it.my sister thinks linux is outdated for some reason,so i gave up i like Ubuntu so much that i removed windows from my computer all together i will probably never go back to windows
But microsoft products are easier to use for most people and that's what most people want regardless of the viruses and spyware and i think microsoft windows will always be the #1 operating system.
Bill
Not always. MS-DOS supplanted CP/M; it is entirely possible that something else--GNU/Linux, or some other successor--will supplant Microsoft. This has largely already happened in serverland.

As far as "easy to install programs" goes, I'll have to hand it to MS and Apple here--their packages are the sort that come in shrink-wrap, which are the easiest for Joe End-User to install and understand. Just because millions of people now have internet connections doesn't mean that they will actually use them to apt-get everything.

Now there's a thought. If I were distributing packages on CDs, would that mean adding each NEW CD to the sources list for apt, or would one entry do? I mean, theoretically, it should be possible for someone to put together a binary .deb for their application, put that on a CD, and sell it to an ubuntu-using public, right?

TravisNewman
June 22nd, 2005, 05:27 AM
yeah, and in that case you can just use dpkg instead of going through the sources.list and apt-get, though dpkg doesn't automatically check dependencies.

tread
June 22nd, 2005, 05:32 AM
or use apt-cdrom add. That will allow the user to install using synaptic, and if the software is removed then only libraries that arent used will be removed (in case some later installed software uses one of the cdrom-installed libraries. Synaptic will have to become like aptitude though .. or better yet, use aptitude to install :)

Am rambling!

Edited to add: to answer the original post: I do try to convert people to Linux, though I haven;t had too much success. I have had a lot of success converting Linux users to Ubuntu, but less with converting people to Linux.

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 05:37 AM
So, is there any reason Dell doesn't give you a choice of operating system?

They do if you are an important customer:

http://www1.us.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/alliances/en/linux?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 05:39 AM
I feel this "it is their own fault" attitude whenever I enter the circle of the Linux enthusiats and I hear them discussing why Linux is not used by 'ordinary people'. Fine. Loose the game. Or else... join in and help understand the potential users needs and habbits, usability, human-computer interaction, psychology! And win?

Win what? What race is Linux entered in? It seems to grow despite its lack of knowledge of being in a race.

TravisNewman
June 22nd, 2005, 05:39 AM
Dell most likely gets millions from microsoft, so it doesn't make sense for them to let you choose an OS

tread
June 22nd, 2005, 05:42 AM
Actually, recently Michael Dell said he was willing to offer OSX as an option if Apple were willing.

Brunellus
June 22nd, 2005, 05:52 AM
yeah, and in that case you can just use dpkg instead of going through the sources.list and apt-get, though dpkg doesn't automatically check dependencies.
h'mm. so it should be possible to design something that works like the "feed computer disk/ program installs" behavior that people are used to.

I wonder. If proprietary software were easily installable on an ubuntu system--if, say someone could install Photoshop for Linux, if they so desired--from a disk, would that have any effect on peoples' willingness to switch?

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 05:55 AM
h'mm. so it should be possible to design something that works like the "feed computer disk/ program installs" behavior that people are used to.


Yep. Someone is working on it if you want to help.

http://autopackage.org/

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 05:57 AM
Actually, recently Michael Dell said he was willing to offer OSX as an option if Apple were willing.

He said that he wished Dell could do that. Since he isn't the CEO of Dell anymore, he doesn't really get to call shots like that.

He is a nerd at heart. Recently he invested in Redhat. I bet he has an Ubuntu box somewhere in his huge Dallas home.

:)

polo_step
June 22nd, 2005, 06:01 AM
I'd like to see a live CD with as close an XP-familiar look as possible: MS free core fonts, FireFox configured to mimic IE, etc.

Something in the low-visual-trauma mode that psychologically minimizes rather than maximizes the "differences."

The biggest advantage to Linux that's currently creeping into the public mind is its relative freedom (for now!) from online corruption by malware/spyware and other pernicious trash, which is going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better; there's a high profit motive to it, as opposed to virusing & scriptkiddying, which are merely profitless pastimes for asocial losers with acne.

Exasperated online users who've, for example, already started reacting by shedding IE in favor of FireFox are pre-nudged down the slippery slope toward alternate OSs. ;-)

Now that MS software is no longer "free" in the sense that (the network effect of a freely-pirated OS having accomplished all it can in establishing product dominance) there is no online update/support for warezed copies, the thought of having to actually pay for Microstuff is also in Linux's advantage.

I'd also like to see clearer and more useful quick-start FAQery, Heath-model documentation and soforth.

TravisNewman
June 22nd, 2005, 06:07 AM
Now here's an interesting question-- if the virus writers, who presumably started writing viruses because they were bored and writing for windows is pretty much useless if you're not employed or have good marketing, get interested in linux and start writing useful things, would it eventually get to the point where there are less and less viruses on Windows because of the pull of linux, which would in turn pull more people BACK to Windows? It could be quite a vicious cycle.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is no good answer to getting people to Linux, nor is there any good way to predict anything. Two years from now we ALL might be using Ubuntu, or we might all be using Flumshoe (just made it up). My philosophy, if people seem interested, show them the light. If they don't, don't press it, because there's really no use.

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 06:20 AM
Exasperated online users who've, for example, already started reacting by shedding IE in favor of FireFox are pre-nudged down the slippery slope toward alternate OSs. ;-)


Smartest comment in the whole damn thread. This is the answer to the question:

"how do you get people to use Linux?"

I currently just try to convert my friends and family to Firefox and Openoffice. Most people couldn't give a damn about what an OS is, they care about programs.

So get them hooked on these two needed things. Most people need something like Office and can't pay, and IE is turning into a nightmare. Make the switch here.

My mom is terrified of Linux. But she likes using Firefox and IE on Windows. That means that one day I will go home, and she will wake up one morning and I'll say:

"You have Linux now, but don't worry because here and here are your icons for Openoffice and Firefox. The only difference for you is that you don't have to worry about viruses and spyware anymore. Enjoy"

People care about apps. If you really want to push Linux, the best way is to get some OSS programs on some Window's boxes! GIMP, firefox, openoffice, gaim, thunderbird, and many more OSS programs have Window's ports. Get them hooked on OSS apps, and then the switch to Windows will be as easy as pie.

None of that "the doesn't look exactly like IE and Office XP" BS. Part of the learning curve will be taken care of. Then the only weak link in the chain is you-

the nerd that is setting up Ubuntu.


If you need help with your cause, we are all waiting in the wings.

I personally didn't switch to Linux till one day I noticed that my favorite and most used program by a factor of 1000 (Firefox) had a Linux version.

TravisNewman
June 22nd, 2005, 06:27 AM
""You have Linux now, but don't worry because here and here are your icons for Openoffice and Firefox. The only difference for you is that you don't have to worry about viruses and spyware anymore. Enjoy""

That's kinda rough though if they don't give you permission. Make sure there's some way out of it if they don't like it at all. Start with a dual boot, that can't hurt anything. Whether you TELL them that Windows is still there is up to you, but don't just get rid of everything.

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 06:29 AM
That's kinda rough though if they don't give you permission. Make sure there's some way out of it if they don't like it at all. Start with a dual boot, that can't hurt anything. Whether you TELL them that Windows is still there is up to you, but don't just get rid of everything.

Its simple. Everytime I go home I do work to clean up the spyware and viruses. This is just another fix, just a more definate one.

(I do support dual botting though).

TravisNewman
June 22nd, 2005, 06:35 AM
haha. What you COULD do is just not go home until it's totally infested and you have to reinstall. Perfect window of opportunity

I've already decided that when my mom gets a computer (the one she had died a horrible death) I'm giving her Ubuntu. I've talked to her abotut it and she doesn't care as long as she has a browser, email, IM, and a word processor.

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 06:36 AM
I've already decided that when I build my mom a computer I'm preinstalling Ubuntu. I've talked to her abotut it and she doesn't care as long as she has a browser, email, IM, and a word processor.

fixed.


lol.

allforcarrie
June 22nd, 2005, 06:41 AM
Actually, recently Michael Dell said he was willing to offer OSX as an option if Apple were willing.

Eventuly, something will replace windows. All empires must fall.

polo_step
June 22nd, 2005, 06:42 AM
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is no good answer to getting people to Linux, nor is there any good way to predict anything. Two years from now we ALL might be using Ubuntu...
Elsewhere and in a different thread here, I've mentioned that converting to Linux now for online use is buying time until an adequate response to Windows malware occurs of technical and legislative weight, or obversely, until malware writers start targeting Linux (that outcome has certain built-in problems for the malware writers, but that's another discussion).

My guess is that this will take around two years.

Conversion to Linux is the best response available right now. By the time other responses have taken place, those new Linux users will have adapted to Linux as their prime or only OS.

Not that this particularly matters to me, but it is an interesting subject of discussion. I think Linux has more opportunities right now than ever before.

Thank malware.

TravisNewman
June 22nd, 2005, 06:47 AM
I remember reading your post elsewhere, and you make quite the valid point.

Not only that, but the massive space between desktop releases of Windows.

aysiu
June 22nd, 2005, 07:15 AM
I just lost a potential Linux user tonight. She had our old desktop with 128 MB RAM, and it wasn't working properly with the Windows ME it came with. She "upgraded" to Windows XP, but it ran deathly slow on 128 MB RAM. So, I offered to set up a dual-boot with her for Linux and XP.

At first, it seemed okay, but at this point, she's turning back to Windows because it doesn't freeze up (there's irony for you), and it checks Hotmail properly. I can't argue with that. I think Linux is more stable in general, but I have to say when anything goes wrong in XP, if I hit control-alt-delete, I can shut down the appropriate program. Sometimes control-alt-esc doesn't do anything for me, and if a computer is overloaded with apps, one can hardly launch the terminal in order to killall a process.

And Hotmail... geez. I hate Hotmail. I've given it up for myself personally, but how can one say, "Here, use Thunderbird," when Hotmail doesn't want to play nice with anything but Outlook? I set up Thunderbird for her (with the webmail extension), but since it was POP and not IMAP (you can't do IMAP with Hotmail), the changes weren't reflecting in her account, and for some reason Thunderbird would re-download all her messages every time she started it up (not just the new messages--all the messages).

After a while, she just said (I got the email just now) that XP works just fine. It's a bit slow on starting up apps, but once they're up, it's okay. I've already spent hours trying to configure her Linux installation (getting the printer to work, getting Hotmail to work, setting up partitions).

The lesson she probably learned is: Linux is too much trouble and it just doesn't work... even though the problem is really that Hotmail doesn't work with everything. She's one of those tricky middle people. I never should have tried. You've got to either get the totally clueless folk who think computers are just magic or the totally geek folk who are just all-too-eager to try out Linux. The middle folk are hard...

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 07:24 AM
I just lost a potential Linux user tonight. She had our old desktop with 128 MB RAM, and it wasn't working properly with the Windows ME it came with. She "upgraded" to Windows XP, but it ran deathly slow on 128 MB RAM. So, I offered to set up a dual-boot with her for Linux and XP.

I would be honest and say "you need to buy more ram!"



Sometimes control-alt-esc doesn't do anything for me, and if a computer is overloaded with apps, one can hardly launch the terminal in order to killall a process.

I use crtl+alt+backspace

for those times



And Hotmail... geez. I hate Hotmail. I've given it up for myself personally, but how can one say, "Here, use Thunderbird," when Hotmail doesn't want to play nice with anything but Outlook?

WINE maybe?



The lesson she probably learned is: Linux is too much trouble and it just doesn't work... even though the problem is really that Hotmail doesn't work with everything. She's one of those tricky middle people. I never should have tried. You've got to either get the totally clueless folk who think computers are just magic or the totally geek folk who are just all-too-eager to try out Linux. The middle folk are hard...

I think about this a lot. The only "golden" hook to middle folk that I really see is
all the free software, but if they are pirates (and many middle folk are) then you don't even have that!

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 07:28 AM
Elsewhere and in a different thread here, I've mentioned that converting to Linux now for online use is buying time until an adequate response to Windows malware occurs of technical and legislative weight, or obversely, until malware writers start targeting Linux (that outcome has certain built-in problems for the malware writers, but that's another discussion).

Windows malware problem is the result of ****-poor multi-user management. I don't see legislation stopping that, and Ubuntu really lacks that problem.



Conversion to Linux is the best response available right now. By the time other responses have taken place, those new Linux users will have adapted to Linux as their prime or only OS.

http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx

Not if MS has anything to say about it. This software actually does a pretty good job.



Not that this particularly matters to me, but it is an interesting subject of discussion. I think Linux has more opportunities right now than ever before.


I think the best opportunity will come in a few years whenever Longhorn (or whatever its reall name will be) ships and it lacks any major new feature (look! a new taskbar skin!) while Linux is the fanciest thing this side of OSX (wobbly windows anyone?)

aysiu
June 22nd, 2005, 07:35 AM
I would be honest and say "you need to buy more ram!"
Unfortunately, that wouldn't exactly get her to try Linux. Her XP would just be faster.



I use crtl+alt+backspace for those times

Doesn't that close all open apps?



WINE maybe?

Nope. I've tried it. No good with Outlook. And I highly doubt she'd shell out money for Crossover Office.

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 07:45 AM
Her XP would just be faster.

Better than nothing.


Doesn't that close all open apps?

All graphical ones I believe.

polo_step
June 22nd, 2005, 07:52 AM
Somehow, it doesn't seem odd to me that a MicroSoft proprietary -- HotMail -- only wants to interface with MicroSoft product.

With all the zillions of webmail sites, I wonder why anyone doinks around with HotMail anyway.

As I said though, when you're the average mook and XP just doesn't work right because of malware and none of the easy programs can find or repair the problem enough to get you working right again, you'll be motivated to try other alternatives -- especially when every warez program you download for "free" through KaZaa is rotten with the stuff and you're infested all over again.

A dual-boot system using Linux for webslumming isn't that big of an undertaking. It doesn't have to do everything or have all your crazy peripherals working. It just needs a few gig of HD space.

Adequate memory is sure nice, though; this new box was just a little US$99.99 loss-leader and it only has 128M in it. 512M is only US$23 here, but I have to drill out all those pop-rivets to get the case open. :roll:

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 08:23 AM
Win what? What race is Linux entered in? It seems to grow despite its lack of knowledge of being in a race.


On this point, I just read this today. A quote from Linus Torvalds (creator of Linux):


I do not believe that anything can "replace" Microsoft in the market that MS is right now. Instead, what I think happens is that markets mature, and as they mature and become commoditized, the kind of dominant player like MS just doesn't happen any more. You don't have another dominant player coming in and taking its place -- to find a new dominant player you actually have to start looking at a totally different market altogether.

allforcarrie
June 22nd, 2005, 09:37 AM
USE GMAIL!

drummer
June 22nd, 2005, 11:02 AM
USE GMAIL!
I agree totally, It's so much better than hotmail.. nicer UI, 2.3gigs of space and rising, search functions, etc, etc..
aysiu, PM me if you or your friend want a gmail invite, I have 50 going to waste (or anyone else for that matter).

aysiu
June 22nd, 2005, 02:53 PM
I agree totally, It's so much better than hotmail.. nicer UI, 2.3gigs of space and rising, search functions, etc, etc..
aysiu, PM me if you or your friend want a gmail invite, I have 50 going to waste (or anyone else for that matter).

That's not the solution. I don't use Hotmail. I gave it up. And I can hardly tell my friend, "Well, since your Hotmail account doesn't work in Linux, can you just get an GMail account?" She clearly would rather give up Linux than Hotmail. People don't like switching email accounts--it means they have to then tell all their friends, "Hey, I've changed my email address," and for a while you have to keep checking both, just in case people send something to your old email address. She's also already paid for Hotmail premium (or plus or whatever it is).

kaaredyret
June 22nd, 2005, 03:28 PM
I totally disagree with this. Windows XP works because it's usually pre-configured for the hardware and vice versa. For example, my eMachines computer doesn't even come with a Windows XP disk. It comes with a set of three general recovery disks. If you boot with the first one, it'll prompt you for the second one, which will prompt you for the third one. After that, XP is reinstalled with all the drivers configured and some basic programs installed (to get the DVD player working, for example). My Dell laptop comes with a Windows XP CD and a CD full of all the necessary drivers to get the laptop working on XP. Can you imagine if hardware manufacturers did not tailor their software to XP, and you had to do a fresh XP install and find all the drivers yourself? It'd be a nightmare. The truth is that XP isn't an easier operating system to install or use--it just is the norm, and there are driving forces to get it to work with almost everything.

Also, about the software thing. Honestly, 90% of the people I know do not need Windows-specific software. Sure, there's the odd person who has a program that's Windows-only (like MediaShout) or that's heavily into PC gaming (personally, I don't know any PC gamers, but I know they're out there). Almost everyone I know (family, friends, co-workers) wants to do these things on their computers, and they can all be done in Linux:

* check and send email
* surf the internet safely
* type the occasional document or use the occasional spreadsheet
* burn CDs (data or music)
* rip CDs, organize music
* play DVDs

That's it. Believe it or not, that's what most people want to do with computers, and all of that can be done with almost any distro out there. What we really need is some big name company (like HP, Dell, Gateway, etc.) selling desktops and computers pre-loaded and pre-configured with Linux. HP has already decided to sell computers configured for Ubuntu (not in the US), but it's not pre-loading the OS. If people can buy a commercial computer (reputation) with Linux pre-loaded (no fuss) and do the things they want to do on a computer (convenience), they'll do it. The problem is--Microsoft or not--people do not want to install operating systems.

I have a friend whose PC is totally bogged down with spyware. She doesn't want to switch to Linux, so I told her the best solution is for her to do a clean install of Windows. She was very hesitant about doing this, thinking the solution too extreme, even though it would have taken only a few hours.

Linux just works. We just need a computer manufacturer to back it.

Not in my experience. My friends are scientists or specialized in something (academics); they use (expensive) software only made for Windows... sometimes for Unix as well. These guys have hardcore educations behind them, their jobs demand a lot of them... they simply do not have the time or motivation to learn how to install apps or to try to manage with a OSS program that just cannot do the same as the commercial app. The pay the price to move on. Most of them - like most people - do not give a DAMN about operating systems.

Even my oldest secretary installed Ad-Aware by herself and her machine is clean now. it was that simple for her.

Problem on Linux is that we HAVE autopackage.org - IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE IT SIMPLE - but why is a common installer not installed on all distributions? Because no one made it - that is ignorance, whatever the excuse.

I rejected all distros before I tried Ubuntu - a distro based on the best philosophy. I really hope they will succeed.

Many people do not use their computer for much else than the things that you describe... but then they buy a camera or a mobile phone like mine, and support is only for Windows. And the software I use is actually quite nice.

Linux works for YOU.. I install OpenOffice.org 2.0 by downloadning RPM's and converting the files with a command called ALIEN... then add the icon myself. You are naive if you think that people really think that this is so fantastic.

We need BROAD support for Linux - acceptance. Hard work ahead, if you think we are there, you have lost a battle that was worth fighting.

Kimm
June 22nd, 2005, 03:41 PM
I do try to get my friends to convert to Linux.

Finaly, yesterday I hear the comment "Windows sucks, I'm so sick of it" and not to long after I was asked if I have a Linux CD he could borrow ^^

I'll give him one of my five Ubuntu CD and probably set it up for him, with a huge warning "do NOT use the root password!!", lol, I ended up reformating my hdd like 10 times before I got it working like I wanted it to, then again I tend to be somewhat curious and didnt know what I was doing, thats not the right person to have the root password....

But he is not as into computers as I am, he just needs it to check mail, some office work, msn and to play some q-RO (should be able to emulate that in cedega, right?)

Another one of my friends that have been ũber Linux hostile is begining to break down aswell :-P

poofyhairguy
June 22nd, 2005, 07:35 PM
Not in my experience. My friends are scientists or specialized in something (academics); they use (expensive) software only made for Windows... sometimes for Unix as well. These guys have hardcore educations behind them, their jobs demand a lot of them... they simply do not have the time or motivation to learn how to install apps or to try to manage with a OSS program that just cannot do the same as the commercial app. The pay the price to move on. Most of them - like most people - do not give a DAMN about operating systems.

Let those people stick to Windows if they want.


Problem on Linux is that we HAVE autopackage.org - IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE IT SIMPLE - but why is a common installer not installed on all distributions? Because no one made it - that is ignorance, whatever the excuse.

Because distros won't decide on a common place to install things. The porblem with autopackage is that unlike Windows, in Fedora this lib is here but in Ubuntu its here. In SUSE its here and in Mandrake its here. There are not enough standards between the distros to have a universal installer. But thats why each has its own pacakage manager.

Its better to think about each distro as a totally different OS rather than versions of one OS. Linux is just a kernel.


Linux works for YOU.. I install OpenOffice.org 2.0 by downloadning RPM's and converting the files with a command called ALIEN... then add the icon myself. You are naive if you think that people really think that this is so fantastic.

That is not good. We have an version of OpenOffice 2 in the universe. If that is not new enough for you....you are not the typical Windows user.



We need BROAD support for Linux - acceptance. Hard work ahead, if you think we are there, you have lost a battle that was worth fighting.

There is only one direction this thing can go.

mrtaber
June 22nd, 2005, 08:43 PM
I don't try to convert anyone. I do try to lead by example. Currently, I am requesting (since I have to manage about 16 Linux and BSD servers; we have many more Windows servers, but I've managed to dodge that bullet--they're someone else's headache) to have my Windows XP workstation converted to a Linux box with VM Ware to run the standard issue Windows software. We'll see how that goes.

One interesting thing I've noticed; we have a very rabid Mac OS X contingent here, and they're more hostile to Linux than the Windows users are. Being the laid back guy that I am, I won't even hazard a guess as to why. I have a PowerBook; it's wonderful, but I guess I didn't drink enough koolaid, because, as fine as it is, it's not all that.

In the meantime, we've ceded the fight (for now) for the desktop--it's Microsoft's on our 500 user machines. However, the server space is another story (and, I guess, the typical story in an organization).

And I'm not sure the "we're in a battle with MS" mentality is going to be that effective. It works on marketing types ("pump-you-up"), but turns off most other people. The Taoist wu-wei way seems better to me. Just quietly going about our business, efficiently, effectively, waiting for the proper moment(s).

Bah..I'm rambling. That's what I get when I have a soda for lunch!

Mark :)

aysiu
June 22nd, 2005, 10:20 PM
Most of them - like most people - do not give a DAMN about operating systems.
What's your point? If they don't give a damn about operating systems, that's actually in Linux's favor. If Dell or some other company starts selling computers with Linux preloaded, these people who don't give a damn won't say, "Hey, where's my Windows?" They'll just use it.



Even my oldest secretary installed Ad-Aware by herself and her machine is clean now. it was that simple for her.

Again, what's your point--that people can easily remove spyware and adware? You must be joking. More than half the people in my office building have had their computers infested with spyware, and they have no idea how to get rid of it. The tech people, too, have tried Spybot S&D and Ad-Aware. Nothing has worked short of reinstalling Windows (I had a similar experience like this last year on my personal computer).



Problem on Linux is that we HAVE autopackage.org - IT IS POSSIBLE TO MAKE IT SIMPLE - but why is a common installer not installed on all distributions? Because no one made it - that is ignorance, whatever the excuse.

What's ignorance? I don't know what you're talking about. The problem isn't that that there are different installers and different distros. The problem is that people don't know what distro to use, and that is a real problem. Who knows? Maybe "the" distro will be Ubuntu. HP has already decided to sell computers made for Ubuntu (not in the US, yet).



Linux works for YOU.. I install OpenOffice.org 2.0 by downloadning RPM's and converting the files with a command called ALIEN... then add the icon myself. You are naive if you think that people really think that this is so fantastic.

Why do you do this? Just use Synaptic Package Manager to install OpenOffice.



We need BROAD support for Linux - acceptance. Hard work ahead, if you think we are there, you have lost a battle that was worth fighting.
Who thinks we're there? Has anyone said we're there? Where's there? Nobody thinks we're at a point where people of all computer levels freely pick whatever operating system they want. Nobody thinks any Linux distribution can work out-of-the-box with no tweaking for any piece of hardware for a novice user. Who are you arguing with? What's your point?

sapo
June 22nd, 2005, 10:24 PM
What's your point? If they don't give a damn about operating systems, that's actually in Linux's favor. If Dell or some other company starts selling computers with Linux preloaded, these people who don't give a damn won't say, "Hey, where's my Windows?" They'll just use it.


Again, what's your point--that people can easily remove spyware and adware? You must be joking. More than half the people in my office building have had their computers infested with spyware, and they have no idea how to get rid of it. The tech people, too, have tried Spybot S&D and Ad-Aware. Nothing has worked short of reinstalling Windows (I had a similar experience like this last year on my personal computer).


What's ignorance? I don't know what you're talking about. The problem isn't that that there are different installers and different distros. The problem is that people don't know what distro to use, and that is a real problem. Who knows? Maybe "the" distro will be Ubuntu. HP has already decided to sell computers made for Ubuntu (not in the US, yet).


Why do you do this? Just use Synaptic Package Manager to install OpenOffice.


Who thinks we're there? Has anyone said we're there? Where's there? Nobody thinks we're at a point where people of all computer levels freely pick whatever operating system they want. Nobody thinks any Linux distribution can work out-of-the-box with no tweaking for any piece of hardware for a novice user. Who are you arguing with? What's your point?

OWNED :grin:

TravisNewman
June 22nd, 2005, 10:41 PM
There's not much I can add to this, except for the fact that I agree almost totally with the "What's your point?" or "Why are you making things complicated?" views. However, the point about autopackage is a good one. Autopackage is a sticky situation, though. I don't really like it that much because it complicates things ;) It's much simpler to apt-get something than to autopackage it, for me at least.

That's the entire key here. THE ENTIRE KEY: learning curve. WHen you're used to one way, the other way seems ridiculous.

CoriolisSTORM
June 22nd, 2005, 10:48 PM
Well, Ive handed out a few Ubuntu CDs, but no one has installed them yet I think. I doubt they will either as they all are the type that "like the look and feel of Windows." Kinda ticks me off, but oh well, I'm still learning too. Linux does have a rather steep learning curve at least to me it does...

aysiu
June 22nd, 2005, 10:51 PM
I've been learning Windows almost my whole life--DOS, 3.1, 95, 98, ME, 2000, XP. It took me quite a long time to feel as if I really knew what I was doing in Windows. I've been using Linux for only a year now (and not even continuously), and I at least half know what I'm doing.

Like the tobacco industry, Linux needs to get 'em while they're young, as Apple and Microsoft did.

poofyhairguy
June 23rd, 2005, 12:53 AM
Well, Ive handed out a few Ubuntu CDs, but no one has installed them yet I think. I doubt they will either as they all are the type that "like the look and feel of Windows." Kinda ticks me off, but oh well, I'm still learning too. Linux does have a rather steep learning curve at least to me it does...

Here is the Ubuntu learning curve:

http://www.turningtools.co.uk/wtintro/learn/book1_1.gif

It will level off after a while. At least it isn't super sharp like Gentoo's is. this is the closest thing I could find to the Gentoo curve:

http://www.aggreg8.net/Documentation/Screenshots/TechManual/learningcurve.gif