Is Linux for Losers?-Forbes Magazine

[sonny]

I read in the forbes magazine an interview with Theo de Raadt (OpenBSD lider), and then he criticizes the Linux way of doing software... you can the articule in this link (http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html)

My opinion is that he is frustated with his software; I've never tried OpenBSD, but I don't think he has better software than we have... what are your opinion in this??

[KingBahamut]

http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html

Tsk Tsk Tsk, Theo.

Be Careful, your going to upset alot of people with that.

[KingBahamut]

You beat me to the punch Sonny.

Here is my slashdot reply to the original post.

While I can easily admire.... Free-,Net-,Open-, and all the other BSD Variants, its a little hard to swallow a statement like that coming from De Raadt.

Everyone is using it, and they don't realize how bad it is.

Sounds more like Windows than it does Linux. I have to aggree with a few in here on this, most Linux users dont care about the code, its all about functionality. Am I saying that BSD is a piece of crap? Nope. BSD for all its vaunt and ability is what it is. And its functional. For some it gets the job done, and it does not a bad job at all. In De Raadt's case it sounds like hes trying to have a mine is bigger than yours ******* match, or start one at least. Inflammatory comments, calling something useless and devoid of meaning, commonly spurns in return that which you are giving.

I mean honestly, lets go down the list of things that people hate about BSD, shall we?
The installer sucks. The Partitioner is counter-intuitive, especially for the common end user. Ports is hard to figure out for the end user as well. Ive heard that and more.

Might as well go out and install Linux or some other derivative. At least most of them are built around the end user and his ability to function.

But is BSD free of problems and things that need fixing? No. It has as much to fix as Linux does, both on the code level and on the visible level.

[sonny]

I don't like the way he talks about Linux; and therefore about us, he's like a child seeking for attention. If you have a better software people would know that; as they are knowing Linux for it's better than MS, but you don't have to make comments like that. I'm really glad with the answer of Linus, I think he demostrated the maturity of the Linux community.

[jdong]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=42392

Please continue discussion there.

[KingBahamut]

Well the counter would be that OpenBSD , and ultimately the others as well, are developed by Engineers. As a result the do produce a bit of stable code.

BSD has two major issues that I see.

1. Slow release. Its taken FreeBSD a long time make version 5 Stable. Not nearly as long as debian with its branches mind you, but still, a long time. OpenBSD is no different. Their version releases take too long.

2. Installer aggreeability. The installers for BSD can be confusing. OpenBSD doesnt even come on a standard ISO, so you have an almost classic looking Gentoo install in front of you to get it running. This factor makes it impossible to appeal to the everyday user.

Ergo, De Raadt cant really complain about the usefullness of his OS , until he makes it aggreeable for the common user, something that Linux has done beautifully.

[Lovechild]

I admire Theo for his stance on openness and the OpenBSD drive to create safe computing (even though some of the stuff they do is slightly misguided).

He can say what he likes about Linux, but it is getting more people to the UNIX like operating systems and it is providing a better alternative in terms of freedom than Windows.

Theo is a hacker, not a PR person, unlike Linux, OpenBSD has no public face aside their hackers, and when is the case, this sort of mudslinging happens. I'm sure Theo has valid technical reasons for saying what he does but it doesn't get preceived like that by the public.

One might also recall that Linus Torvalds has dished out some harsh words in his day as well, just try to google his famous doing drugs comments on HURD.

[KingBahamut]

Oh im very certain that Linus, Andy, and Tridge have all made a variety of disparaging comments to others on a variety of levels. Ultimately , Linus himself has done so to those in his own circle ( Im reminded of his Chiding of Tridge's attempt at reverse engineering Microsoft Document formats ). Its the nature of the business.

De Raadt is a militant, you kind of have to respect it.

But we are all in the same "fight" here. Unix vs M$. Infighting just gets irritating.

[Knome_fan]

I don't think anyone should take this too seriously.

First off all, it was published in Forbes by Dan Lyons.
The only thing this guy is known for (at least to me) is publishing negative (and I mean really negative, not merely critical) articles about Linux that are only good for sparking /. flame wars.
So before I see what de Raadt actually said, how and if he was provoced into saying this, etc., i would take this with a grain of salt. (For example, as far as I can tell, he never said linux is for loosers, that's Lyons' spin)

That said, de Raadt making, uhm, not really leveled remarks about something isn't really new, in other words, he's known to be pretty abusive at times (which can be hilarious btw., but that may just be my sick sense of humor). That's just how he is, no use getting set up about it.

Finally, though he may not posses the best social skills one can imagine, he still is doing some pretty great things as far as I can tell, so as long as he keeps on doing these things he can also happily insult anyone who chooses to be insulted by his remarks instead of just ignoring them (Look at Linux Torvalds reaction, btw.). :-D

[mrtaber]

I'd be more than willing to give one the of BSDs another try, as soon as they come up with an installer that won't require me to do a week's worth of reading just to get to a decent Gnome or KDE screen. Until then, if you want to try a really good BSD there's...Apple OS X. Not free, runs on proprietary software, but very nice.

Mark :)

[aragorn2909]

Just a thought, I wonder how much advertising dollars flow into Forbes from MS? This article to me just seems like a feeble attempt to distract from the real issue.

[bored2k]

Just a thought, I wonder how much advertising dollars flow into Forbes from MS? This article to me just seems like a feeble attempt to distract from the real issue.
I was thinking the exact same thing.

[desdinova]

Forbes, and that reporter in particular, has had a vested interest in promoting anti F/OSS FUD. They were once big shills for SCO as well.

The trick is to ignore it - BSD and GPL people may be in opposing viewpoints in some ways, but we're all dedicated to free software. Best bet is not to rise to the bait.

[jdodson]

these stories are always funny. my first reaction was: "who the hell cares." seriously, i really don't care that much if bsd IS better. it seemed his beef was mostly because it was a hack. if it is, then so be it, for reasons i have outlined. seems the "hack" works well enough.

so i am a loser, well i have always known that. i mean seriously, if you think about it, to most people, if you say "bsd is better than gnu/linux" what you are really saying is, i am an uber-dork. so i guess a more adequate title would read "bsd and gnu/linux are for losers. windows is for everyone with a dell, and mac is for the trendy hip crowd." :) then again, i happen to think both OS's(gnu/linux and bsds) are cool, for different reasons.

i installed freebsd 5.3 the other day. wow, what a pain. i have been using gnu/linux for many, many years and you would think the freebsd install would be easy, well i had to read a freebsd guide to get it right, A GUIDE! well anyways, i got it installed, and then i installed gnome 2.6, which is fine, it was a fine release, a bit old, but fine. bsd has two ways to install software, well three i guess, off the cds, off the net in binary form and off the net in a source build way(like gentoo). i installed gnome via the binary method. shockingly enough gnome was much like gnome 2.6 anywhere. shockingly enough i did not really notice a huge difference between freebsd and any ol gnu/linux. well, beyond the fact that i did not know what i was doing, and had to consult a guide, which was fine.

linus has said, many times over, that the kernel is better in ways that people care about. the kernel has crazy awesome driver support. now i know we all complain that it is not great because at times it does not automatically detect some lame old serial periperhal that ran on our old commodore computers, or some brand new cheap wireless card that only works in windows xp(you can get those to work using ndiswrapper btw) and xp only. however, the massive support in the kernel is astounding, windows xp can't beat it, mac can't touch it, bsd is close. plus with new kernel features like HAL and DBUS, the kernel is moving twoard users in all the ways that matter most. this arguement seems to me to be the same kind of microkernel VS. monolithic kernel arguement that linus and tanenbaum got into when tanenbaum said linux was obsolete. well the fact is that our monolithic kernel is here, and its now. show me a microkernel that works as well as the linux kernel that does as much stuff. then again, thats not a totally fair comparision as the idea of monolithic kernels have been around longer. still, the kernel matters in the ways people care about most. solaris guys argue that one of the most important things is binary compatability. linus thinks no one cares about that. linus is right actually. we have the source to the entire free ubuntu system, a few drivers here and there being binary can be easily recompiled. if we are running proprietary programs that break, whos fault is that really? seems to be our fault, i think we need to be aware of the proprietary trap(i fall into this one, cause dammit, i like unreal tournament 2004!).

i think i have said enough.

wait, wait, time to beat the dead horse. he mentioned that bsd was poised to be as popular as linux. then he says that linux popularity aids to the fact that big corporations get sweet software for pennies. i doubt bsd would have been much different in this regard. then again, who really knows, i doubt this guy has a crystal ball to see what "might have happened." then again, he might have been visited by the ghost of christmas "might have been." who knows.

[Leif]

I'd be more than willing to give one the of BSDs another try, as soon as they come up with an installer that won't require me to do a week's worth of reading just to get to a decent Gnome or KDE screen. Until then, if you want to try a really good BSD there's...Apple OS X. Not free, runs on proprietary software, but very nice.

Mark :)

www.pcbsd.org might be what you're looking for. I've been eyeing it for a while, but I just don't have the time to play right now.

[mrtaber]

Thanks...PCBSD does look interesting. I, too, will have to wait until I have more time. Here at work we support RHEL3/4, Windows 2000/XP, and Mac OS X on XServes (not to mention apps running at a data center on mainframes under CICS and MVS)...so my hands are full. Then I go home to my Linux box :) (I do have a Titanium PowerBook, which is very nice for working at the coffee shop :)). I didn't intend to sound like a slam against BSD--I'm sure it does have some great features. I guess I'm just too pressed for time right now to add it into the mix.

:)
Mark

[DJ_Max]

I've never tried OpenBSD, but I don't think he has better software than we have... what are your opinion in this??
BSD software is implemented better. Just the whole fact that BSD actually has a base system and a centralized development model. There are only a few Linux distros that implement software decently, Gentoo and Debian(including it's child distros). Most distros just put software from different sources together so they fit. It seems that Linux replaces stability with time

[KingBahamut]

Leif Ive got a copy of PCBSD Running, its a little buggy in places, needs work in a lot of places. If you really want to try BSD in a full functioning bit, then youll need to grab -- http://www.freesbie.org/.

But this is starting to get OT , so thats all im going to say on it.

=)

[Leif]

Leif Ive got a copy of PCBSD Running, its a little buggy in places, needs work in a lot of places. If you really want to try BSD in a full functioning bit, then youll need to grab -- http://www.freesbie.org/.

But this is starting to get OT , so thats all im going to say on it.

=)

Thanks for the info, it looks interesting. And now, returning to our regular broadcast :

I say it's sour grapes !!!

[sonny]

Just the whole fact that BSD actually has ...a centralized development model.
Isn't that what Linux is against ???

[DJ_Max]

Isn't that what Linux is against ???
The fact that Linux has no separation between the "base system" and "addon utilities". Simply because there is no base system. I would guess so.

[sonny]

The fact that Linux has no separation between the "base system" and "addon utilities". Simply because there is no base system. I would guess so.
In that case.. we are talking about OS with VERY different points of view about how to do software... who is right; or better? I think history will tell.

[Optimal Aurora]

He made a point that I have seen in the FC4 and if you look at fedoraforum.org you will see too... Just like with ubuntu and not being able to print in Openoffice.org and not being able to get RealPlayer and Acroread installed on my system as well as the chroot so I can use 32 bit Ubuntu stuff... I have the audio problems with FC4 and Grub problems as well as other major annoyances. I think that Linux is not the quality of an OS that lets say Windows and Mac OSX and FreeBSD is...

But then too, I like using it however I am constantly tempted to go back to Windows XP SP2 and get me a Mac OSX tiger G5 system... So he has a point about some people that are using linux, and a few points about other OS's that I used...

The only thing that keeps Linux on my systems, is that I like to keep the knowledge and skills required to use linux fresh in my mind...

[mrtaber]

Well, the way the author framed the article ("For Losers?") shows that he's out to yank chains and get a reaction, which is like crack for some journalists (and it's not the first time this anti-Linux troll has sharpened his ax on the OSS community...) It's really not even a decent jumping off point for a good discussion.

It's a testament to the Ubuntu community (and other OSS forums) that they've managed to start good discussions from such a tainted source.

Mark :)

[KingBahamut]

Dan Lyons - Random and excessive FOSS Attacker

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/0531/6311245a.html - basically stating Red Hat is a good company , but that it has no chance against MS. I felt it was a nice way of saying RH, you suck.

http://www.forbes.com/home/enterprisetech/2004/08/02/cz_dl_0802linux.html - AKA Linux users are destorying themselves.

http://www.forbes.com/execpicks/2005/05/26/cz_dl_0526linux.html - BitMover was Right, Linus was F'ed up and wrong.

http://www.forbes.com/business/smallbusiness/2005/04/05/cz_dl_0405linux.html - Free linux actually costs money.....again, Linux Sucks.

Daniel Lyons does a pretty good job of digging on what he probably has very little understanding of. All he sees is a Dollar sign, and go figure, the ruddy bastard works for Forbes. They analyze things based on Financial concept. Not a very reliable source of Technical knowledge.

[desdinova]

He made a point that I have seen in the FC4 and if you look at fedoraforum.org you will see too... Just like with ubuntu and not being able to print in Openoffice.org and not being able to get RealPlayer and Acroread installed on my system as well as the chroot so I can use 32 bit Ubuntu stuff... I have the audio problems with FC4 and Grub problems as well as other major annoyances. I think that Linux is not the quality of an OS that lets say Windows and Mac OSX and FreeBSD is...


And yet Linux has far better hardware support then FreeBSd, which sort of throws a spanner in the works....

[Optimal Aurora]

Yah I know linux has better hardware support than FreeBSD, but maybe he is just one of those people who dislike change... and dislike Linux because of so major annoyances of the past... Who knows...

[sonny]

From of the Links that KingBahamut placed, and writen by Daniel Lyons:

Linux creator Linus Torvalds says he isn't worried by suggestions that Linux may infringe on patents. "Hey, there 'may' be life on Mars. What does 'may' mean?" he says via e-mail, adding that if Linux really does infringe on a patent, he'll just rewrite the code to sidestep the problem.
I think this guy is missinterpreting the word of Linus, and that is insulting, cuz he thinks he can twist the truth and no-one will ever know. Well we know, unfortunattely common people doesn't know all the facts and when some-one like this guy says all this s***t about Linux they think he's saying the true...

[poofyhairguy]

what are your opinion in this??

The BSD guy is pissed that HIS pet project doesn't get the love that "that patched together crap" Linux does.

[asimon]

The BSD guy is pissed that HIS pet project doesn't get the love that "that patched together crap" Linux does.
Yes, this was exactly the feeling I got when I started reading this article (I didn't finish, too much cheap semi-arguments). Looks like one of those flame-generator-articles which seem to be meant for boosting the page hits of a "news" site.

[poofyhairguy]

Yes, this was exactly the feeling I got when I started reading this article (I didn't finish, too much cheap semi-arguments). Looks like one of those flame-generator-articles which seem to be meant for boosting the page hits of a "news" site.

Its funny, because sometimes on the same page as such stories are articles like "why are Linux geeks such flaming zealots?"

As they say- garbage in, garbage out.

[aragorn2909]

Microsoft may not fear *nix, but they are obviously afraid that they might fear *nix. This article is nothing more than devide and conquer marketing passed off as journalism. desdinova's advice here was sound advice : "The trick is to ignore it... Best bet is not to rise to the bait."

[SparkyDawg]

The BSD vs. Linux thing needs to stop, it's childish.

[TravisNewman]

yeah, there are a lot of childish "vs" things that need to stop.

You'd think that an open source variant of UNIX and an open source clone of UNIX could get along though...