Give Debian some respect

[b4k4]

Just visiting Ubuntu after a while away, I noticed the web pages (especially around the home page) are full of self-congratulatory praise, and that the word Debian seems to be missing. Even a page called What is Ubuntu?, makes no mention of Debian. In fact it only starts to appear when you read about Ubuntu Server. Ok, I get it, people who know about servers value and respect Debian. So we need to emphasise that Ubuntu is almost Debian on these pages. Ordinary users don't need to worry about such trivia.
Come on Ubuntu, give credit where it's due. Debian is a beautiful, selfless project. The world is truly a better place because of it. The very first page of Ubuntu should say "Debian based", like all other distros based on Debian do.

Is Ubuntu giving back to Debian? I'm not even sure you are saying "thank you".

[Andyfield123]

I agree.
I have nothing else to say, because you made such a strong point

[plb]

Well in firefox bookmarks there is a link to debian homepage. As far as ubuntu giving back to debian, of course it does. The update manager that is in etch came from ubuntu afaik. And pretty much everything ubuntu has is also in debian repos (I'm referring to the software designed by ubuntu devs).

[Adamant1988]

Just visiting Ubuntu after a while away, I noticed the web pages (especially around the home page) are full of self-congratulatory praise, and that the word Debian seems to be missing. Even a page called About Ubuntu, makes no mention of Debian. In fact it only starts to appear when you read about Ubuntu Server. Ok, I get it, people who know about servers value and respect Debian. So we need to emphasise that Ubuntu is almost Debian on these pages. Ordinary users don't need to worry about such trivia.
Come on Ubuntu, give credit where it's due. Debian is a beautiful, selfless project. The world is truly a better place because of it. The very first page of Ubuntu should say "Debian based", like all other distros based on Debian do.

Is Ubuntu giving back to Debian? I'm not even sure you are saying "thank you".

Unfortunately, there is a conflict of interest in doing that. Anyone in the know knows that Ubuntu is a debian based distribution, it's widely acknowledged public fact. However, Ubuntu is a product more than a project, and when you're in an admittedly competitive market you don't want to say "Yeah, well, we really just take Debian sid add some stuff to the kernel, sync up repos and fix some bugs".

However, the Ubuntu developers do a lot of hard work with their limited resources to try to push these releases out with reasonable stability and bugs squashed. A lot of changes are made in order to make Ubuntu a far more friendly desktop experience for you and I, and make it a pleasure to set up and get running.

The Debian project is a grand example of how free software can be done properly, and you're right they may DESERVE more credit than the Ubuntu community and leadership choose to give them, but they won't get that because of Ubuntu's purpose. Ubuntu is supposed to be a business product and a community project, well, saying publicly that you're riding on the back of another distribution's work (even though that's part of the entire purpose of open sourcing software) is not a good way to make your business look strong or trustworthy.

I'm sure that privately the Ubuntu developers, community, and leadership are all very happy with Debian and internally they probably give them credit where it is do. It's just business, you understand.

(Disclaimer: None of the information contained in this post is supported by any sort of statement from the Ubuntu/Canonical administration. All of the information in this post is strictly my opinion.)

[MetalMusicAddict]

I'm sure that privately the Ubuntu developers, community, and leadership are all very happy with Debian and internally they probably give them credit where it is do.
Its actually more than that. Most of the core team were Debian developers (some still might be). Ben Collins (the Ubuntu kernel lead) lead Debian for a year or so.

If its really just PR the OP is concerned about then I will say Adamant1988's post is fitting.

[rai4shu2]

... like all other distros based on Debian do.

I assume you include Knoppix? Try finding the word "Debian" here.

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html

[daynah]

Every teen hates their parents :) (Just Linux) (http://730x.up.md/wp-content/44218-1.png)

Even your dad hated his dad (Including Unix! Wow!) (http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html#02)

[Shay Stephens]

Even from my noobiest beginnings I have known and appreciated that Ubuntu was based on Debian. I also understood that GNU was part of it, as well as Linux. And yet all of them take a back seat because for simplicity sake, I call what I have here Ubuntu.

When I introduce myself to someone for the first time I don't start by saying "Hi, I am the son of of so and so, and my name is Shay."

Ubuntu's parentage is no secret and I find no reason to make it any more prominent than it already is.

[r4ik]

I assume you include Knoppix? Try finding the word "Debian" here.

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html

Go to info,

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-info/index-en.html

The following "Highlights" are available on the download version of this Debian-based (www.debian.org) CD or DVD:


I agree with original poster.

[eentonig]

Even if it's a pr thing. I still consider it a bit a shame they don't give credit where credit is due.

Debian is hardcore Linux for geeks. But it is our ancestor and we should be proud to state that we (as in Ubuntu) derive from such a well known and established project.

[r4ik]

Even if it's a pr thing. I still consider it a bit a shame they don't give credit where credit is due.

Debian is hardcore Linux for geeks. But it is our ancestor and we should be proud to state that we (as in Ubuntu) derive from such a well known and established project.


"Debian is hardcore Linux for geeks"

No is not just look for Hakix

Or better just use apt-get

[ThinkBuntu]

I agree that any distribution should make clear its roots. Mint should call for Ubuntu, and Ubuntu for Debian. If this were the case, maybe you'd see links or comments about Debian-based distros on the Debian homepage...

In any case, without Debian, many parts of Ubuntu would cease to exist. Debian handles the vast majorities of packages, is responsible for apt-get, is the source of Ubuntu (and other distros') stability, and has the strongest base of developers.

[Teg_Navanis]

Why not call it "Debian slash Ubuntu"? :-\" :biggrin:

[hanzomon4]

Isn't it common knowledge that ubuntu is debian based?

I guess I don't see the big deal because when I first tried linux/ubuntu I read on their site that ubuntu was debian based, did this change?

[Engnome]

I agree, more credit to Debian!


Isn't it common knowledge that ubuntu is debian based?

I guess I don't see the big deal because when I first tried linux/ubuntu I read on their site that ubuntu was debian based, did this change?

Yes, now it only says that the server edition is debian based. There will probably be a growing number of people popping up in these forums saying stuff like "wtf is debian? who cares anyway" And that is a shame I think, Debian deserves credit.

[argie]

Why not just add one more thing on wherever the Features page is:
* Ubuntu is based on Debian, reputed for rock solid stability.

Yeah, someone could probably word that better :) However, I remember that when I got Ubuntu it was nearly obvious to me that it was based on Debian, not because I'm some expert, but Ubuntu did mention it and people do say that all over the place. In Firefox, the default only has a small set of bookmarks which everyone, I think, deletes :) One of them is "Bookmarks > Ubuntu and Free Software Links > Debian (Ubuntu is based on Debian)" .

Personally, I think Debian deserves a lot of credit, just like I think GNU deserves a lot of credit for what people refer to as Linux


Why not call it "Debian slash Ubuntu"? :-\" :biggrin:

Haha funny :D

[Anthem]

There will probably be a growing number of people popping up in these forums saying stuff like "wtf is debian? who cares anyway"
Well, nobody's said it so far, and when they do they'll get enlightened.

I think most Debian devs would prefer code, not PR fluff. And Ubuntu does give back code.

Plus, Mark's always talking about Debian. It's not as if it's some secret.

[kerry_s]

I think it's all a load of hog wash, ubuntu has the right to stand on it's own, there's no need to mention debian. It would give the false impression that ubuntu is 100% debian compatiable, it is not. If debian was to pull it's repos tomorrow ubuntu will still go on. There is a reason ubuntu uses it's own repos and not debian. Most debian based linux use debian repo's, ubuntu does not use "Debian" repo's

[Hex_Mandos]

Given that Ubuntu doesn't include GNU or Linux in its name, I don't think that's too bad. In the end, if Ubuntu aims to be the Windows-killer (see bug #1) it doesn't matter: it's just us geeks and power users who care to see what it's built on. My mother doesn't know or care about what Debian is. She just knows Ubuntu is "a Linux", that she can do what she needs with her computer, that she doesn't have to worry about malware, and she's fine with that.

[koenn]

I think it's all a load of hog wash, ubuntu has the right to stand on it's own, there's no need to mention debian. It would give the false impression that ubuntu is 100% debian compatiable, it is not. If debian was to pull it's repos tomorrow ubuntu will still go on.



I’m of the opinion that Ubuntu could not exist without Debian

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/56

Guess which one I think knows best ?

[b4k4]

if Ubuntu aims to be the Windows-killer (see bug #1) it doesn't matter: it's just us geeks and power users who care to see what it's built on. My mother doesn't know or care about what Debian is.
I think its important for society that people are aware of Debian. A visit to the Debian web site will introduce many fundamental concepts regarding the meaning of free in free software. Far too many thinking people are completely ignorant about these issues, and then we end up with software patents and people believing that microsoft has IP in Linux.
Debian can also inspire people in other fields to work together seflessly for the greater good of humanity.

I'm not saying advertise Debian. I'm not saying link to Debian. I'm saying stop hiding the importance of Debian from the casual user and web surfer. Ubuntu, by being clear about the fact that it is built on Debian, can contribute much more to the important battle against the corporate hijacking of democracy. All you have to do is mention the word Debian, and people will wonder what it is and discover for themselves.

And actually, I think Linux is being down-played more and more as the web pages evolve, also.


If this were the case, maybe you'd see links or comments about Debian-based distros on the Debian homepage...
like here, you mean?
http://www.debian.org/misc/children-distros

[dbbolton]

"marc shuttleworth stole my distribution"

[loserboy]

It would seem to me that the people that care already know.

If you give a crap about Debian, then you're gonna know that Ubuntu is based on it.
If you have no clue, then you probably don't know what Debian is and know little of Ubuntu except that it's some sort of thing that is called an operating system and that there is actually something besides windows and mac. So what good would it be to immediately explain about Debian before they understand Ubuntu.

my 2 cents maybe i'm wrong

[chakkaradeep]

Correct me if am wrong,

I doubt Ubuntu is still getting things from Debian, I see many distros go take Ubuntu as base. I do agree Ubuntu is based on debian, but is they still taking components from Debian ? I can see many improvements done by Ubuntu than in Debian. Might be thats the reason they haven't portrayed now.

:confused: :confused:

[Ireclan]

Unfortunately, there is a conflict of interest in doing that. Anyone in the know knows that Ubuntu is a debian based distribution, it's widely acknowledged public fact. However, Ubuntu is a product more than a project, and when you're in an admittedly competitive market you don't want to say "Yeah, well, we really just take Debian sid add some stuff to the kernel, sync up repos and fix some bugs".

However, the Ubuntu developers do a lot of hard work with their limited resources to try to push these releases out with reasonable stability and bugs squashed. A lot of changes are made in order to make Ubuntu a far more friendly desktop experience for you and I, and make it a pleasure to set up and get running.

The Debian project is a grand example of how free software can be done properly, and you're right they may DESERVE more credit than the Ubuntu community and leadership choose to give them, but they won't get that because of Ubuntu's purpose. Ubuntu is supposed to be a business product and a community project, well, saying publicly that you're riding on the back of another distribution's work (even though that's part of the entire purpose of open sourcing software) is not a good way to make your business look strong or trustworthy.

I'm sure that privately the Ubuntu developers, community, and leadership are all very happy with Debian and internally they probably give them credit where it is do. It's just business, you understand.

(Disclaimer: None of the information contained in this post is supported by any sort of statement from the Ubuntu/Canonical administration. All of the information in this post is strictly my opinion.)

I have to disagree with you. I do not think touting Debian a bit more would adversely affect Ubuntu at all, were it to have the proper "spin" put on it. One could call it a "feature" rather than a "dependency", thus making it appear in a much more positive light. Now, whether it truly IS a feature or dependency, I do not know, but that's another matter entirely.

[koenn]

Correct me if am wrong,
I doubt Ubuntu is still getting things from Debian, I see many distros go take Ubuntu as base. I do agree Ubuntu is based on debian, but is they still taking components from Debian ? I can see many improvements done by Ubuntu than in Debian. Might be thats the reason they haven't portrayed now.

I think you're wrong.
If you look at the repositories (eg in Synaptic), you'll find that some packages have 'ubuntu' in their name/version, and others don't. Generally speaking, you could say that the packages without "ubuntu" in the filename come from the Debian rerpo's unmodified. The packages with "ubuntu" in the filename come from Debian, but have been modified by Ubuntu devs / maintainers.

Out of curiosity, I did a count for Feisty (main and universe) and found

Main:

total packages : 4532
ubuntu packgs : 2323


Universe:

total packages: 15642
ubuntu packgs : 3771

[Blondie]

Correct me if am wrong,

I doubt Ubuntu is still getting things from Debian, I see many distros go take Ubuntu as base. I do agree Ubuntu is based on debian, but is they still taking components from Debian ? I can see many improvements done by Ubuntu than in Debian. Might be thats the reason they haven't portrayed now.

:confused: :confused:


Ubuntu is not even a fork of Debian, it is a periodically refreshed stabilisation of the Debian unstable branch. Ubuntu's reliance on Debian is not historical but ongoing. The relationship is symbiotic. If Debian died so would Ubuntu. Both distros are strengthened by this relationship. I am a user of both Ubuntu and Debian. Ubuntu has been positive for Debian. I would even go so far as to say that Ubuntu has created more Debian users than it has poached from it. Those who have gone from XP to Ubuntu to Debian for example. That's before even talking about any information of technical value that Ubuntu devs give to Debian devs. But really Ubuntu *IS* Debian. For this reason anyone who says that Ubuntu is great but Debian is sh*t or that Ubuntu is sh*t and Debian is great is automatically a clueless idiot. Debian and Ubuntu are much more similar than many Ubuntu users who have never used Debian think, and Debian is *NOT* that difficult to use. If you use Debian like I do you will realise how much of the great things about Ubuntu are things shared and originated by Debian.

[Hex_Mandos]

I concur. Had it not been for Ubuntu, I wouldn't have tried Debian. I think I would've chosen Mandriva as a starter distro (as it was the first distro I downloaded... and never installed), and "something harder" wouldn't have been Debian, but probably CentOS. Now I recommend Debian for some uses where Ubuntu isn't optimal.

[barmazal]

I got known first time with Ubuntu or any other Linux OS 2 weeks ago. From second day i knew Ubuntu is based on Debian. If noob like me knows that then everyone should. At the same time all software came out of something else should we mention all that? Well it shouldn't be something like cast at the end of the movie. Ubuntu can add clearly visible link to Debian in special thanks though. I think they do have something like that.

I don't quite know what are other differences between Debian and Ubuntu except of user friendliness but i would think of Debian guys just go with more successful project to crash MS.

This is the point i fail to get about Linux and all Open Source ppl, Open Source is made to make a progress and not to re-copy and release under other nickname with button up left (isn't that what Microsoft does? just they have no view on code when copying from major software brands). I think if Linux community and Open source community at all would stick to the same application and get new quality members into it's development avoiding splits and side projects. Linux could be OS used by more than half of computer users while all these splits within such small community make software low quality since you fight against wrong ppl. Big systems should be your targets.

This way maybe Gimp would be as good as Photoshop or any Linux based audio sequencer as good as Logic


Hopefully Ubuntu will be such Linux since it's gains respect and new users each day. The only thing i can do is to tell my friends as i did.

[Oki]

This one “Correct me if am wrong, I doubt Ubuntu is still getting things from Debian, “ surprised me big time, from one with “A Carafe of Ubuntu”.

One of the first thing I learn about Ubuntu from a Norwegian site was that it is based upon Debian. So I guess; thanks to Debian I can use Linux, and thanks to Ubuntu I can have an “user friendly” version of Linux with the “latest and greatest” software.

I guess most people know this, and the important thing is that Canonical/Ubuntu is giving back code.
And btw; RedHat is giving back a lot more code then Ubuntu....

Or we could post this on the front-page just to be sure LoL: :)
http://kde-files.org/CONTENT/content-files/44218-linuxdistrotimeline-7.2.png

[aktiwers]

I agree.. offcause Debian needs credit.. add Debian based to the front page.

[bwhite82]

Debian and Ubuntu are similar in many ways but different in their goals. Debian is about stability, Ubuntu is about newb-friendliness/releases-often. They are both excellent at what they do. I prefer Debian for its stability and accept the fact that I'm not utilizing the latest and "greatest". Others may want the opposite. With that said, YES, definitely give Debian some respect, there are *reasons* why Canonical chose to base off of Debian.

As the saying goes, "Don't bite the hand that feeds."