PDA

View Full Version : What are the ultimate features of OS X that Ubuntu needs?



motin
April 15th, 2007, 03:27 AM
Have you seen the OS X feature overview page (http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/)?

What are the 4-5 features where Apple is miles most ahead of Ubuntu in terms of creating and maintaining their strong userbase according to you?

Summary of the first 10 pages (up-to post 98 - updating as fast as I can ;) ):

Feature (Votes)
Plug-and-play video mirroring and dual monitor setup (7)
Real Drag 'n' drop / Better integration of the desktop environment (5)
"Perfect" hardware integration (5)
Support for professional creative software - Inkwell, Adobe Photoshop CS3, Reason 3 etc (5)
Savvy marketing (3)
Text to Speech (3)
Spotlight (2)
Really easy networking (2)
An INTEGRATED dock by default (2)
A tidy and consistent GUI layout / Better graphical flow (2)
Time Machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html) (1½)
Exposé (1)
Ease of installation (as the OS always come preinstalled) (1)
Unified administration of settings (1)
An iLife-ish application suite (1)
Logical and clear naming of folders (1)
The fact that the GUI way is the most accepted way of doing things (1)
iTunes (1)
A dock by default (1)
Hotplugging of mouses (1)
DVD Support out-of-the-box or at least semiatuomatically a la Feisty's mp3-support (1)
One-click installs / Being able to download and run programs from the web browser rather than needing another application (2)
A ready to go, amateur music production like Garageband (1)
A FULL package with everything for use of offline systems - codecs etc (1)
The way it treats programs - when you run a program (say Firefox), it starts up firefox, and opens a window. When you close the window, Firefox continues to run in background until it is manually closed. (2-1 = 1)
Implementation and integration of DRM technologies into the operating system (1-4= -3)

If you are up to it - you may want to give your opinion on these threads as well:
- What are the ultimate features of Vista that Ubuntu needs? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409721)
- What are the ultimate features of Ubuntu that neither Vista nor OS X has? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=409720)

DISCLAIMER: Note that I do NOT believe copycating Apple or MS is a good or even possible way to go. IMO Linux should never aim at going the same path as other OS vendors have and instead keep focused on making Linux better in whatever ways Linux users want. At the same time, a broader feature list that attracts userbase and thus in the end more power/possibilites for the Linux development is needed as well. Since Apple and MS are the current masters of collecting and maintaining a strong userbase - we need to define in what ways we can focus our efforts to efficiently increase ours.

BoneKracker
April 15th, 2007, 04:40 AM
Savvy marketing.

3rdalbum
April 15th, 2007, 06:06 AM
Ubuntu really does need to catch up in the implementation and integration of DRM technologies into the operating system.

Alfa989
April 15th, 2007, 11:35 AM
Ubuntu really does need to catch up in the implementation and integration of DRM technologies into the operating system.

You mean where?? Mac OS X hasn't got any DRM restriction or whatever...

Alfa989
April 15th, 2007, 11:39 AM
Exposé
Spotlight
Real Drag 'n' drop
Ease of installation

klytu
April 15th, 2007, 11:54 AM
Inkwell and Speech look ambitious and impressive. I'd like to see how well they actually function ...

motin
April 15th, 2007, 12:12 PM
Exposé
Spotlight
Real Drag 'n' drop
Ease of installation

Good list. What is meant by "Real Drag 'n' Drop" though?

3rdalbum
April 15th, 2007, 01:48 PM
Good list. What is meant by "Real Drag 'n' Drop" though?

This is the part of that list that I agree with. Drag and Drop in between programs doesn't work too well on Linux, because programs have different expectations of what format of data to send and what data format to recieve.

Windows users don't notice it, because they don't drag 'n' drop in between programs. Mac users DO notice it, because the Macintosh has the best d'n'd support and a history of encouraging it.

Freedesktop.org and application developers need to sort this out once and for all, but it's not a blocker to the Linux desktop - most Linux converts come from Windows, and they don't drag 'n' drop even on Windows, so this lack often goes unnoticed.

Sunnz
April 15th, 2007, 03:34 PM
Text to Speech. I really miss this feature on OS X where you can highlight any piece of text in any program and OS X will speak it out loud for you - it even works in the terminal, really helpful for reading man pages.

Alfa989
April 15th, 2007, 03:45 PM
Good list. What is meant by "Real Drag 'n' Drop" though?

So you can drag 'n' drop everywhere, which makes a lot of sense in a GUI...

engla
April 15th, 2007, 03:50 PM
I agree with Drag and Drop. It's simply that. On OS X I did some programs handling clipboards (copy&paste) and drag and drop (which are more or less the same thing), and there is a good selection of "rich types"; strings, images, file contents, file aliases, etc etc.. Everything with type information (encoding for strings, filetype for images).

With gtk you can with the usual library, drag two things: utf-8 strings and files. Of couse you can pass anything as utf-8 data, but then you and the destination program have to agree on what you are sending.. hardly workable globally. For everything else, you have to write a file .. before the drag finishes (You know how that works with Archive manager :( )

So drag and drop has to improve, even things like alt-tabbing work while dragging on OS X, which is very useful. Grab a text snippet, hold it and alt-tab to the application you want, and release it when it comes to the front.

If you want to know more about drag&drop in gnome you can read at Tips& Tricks at Gnome Live (http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/TipsAndTricks), where I have written a part of it.

Sunnz
April 15th, 2007, 04:03 PM
Time Machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html) would be nice to have as well, not necessarily as fancy graphic as they have, but should not be that difficult - seems like a cvs repository + cron job + some nice GUI frontend.

motin
April 15th, 2007, 04:23 PM
Time Machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html) would be nice to have as well, not necessarily as fancy graphic as they have, but should not be that difficult - seems like a cvs repository + cron job + some nice GUI frontend.

I so agree on that! Just a GUI for Subversion would be swell to start of with... NaughtySVN hasn't been moving too much forward the last years.

motin
April 15th, 2007, 04:28 PM
Text to Speech. I really miss this feature on OS X where you can highlight any piece of text in any program and OS X will speak it out loud for you - it even works in the terminal, really helpful for reading man pages.

System -> Settings -> Accessibility. There you can activate the Text to Speech screen reader, not only reading all buttons and labels on the screen, but also texts. I think it is called "espeak" in the terminal.

Sunnz
April 15th, 2007, 04:33 PM
System -> Settings -> Accessibility. There you can activate the Text to Speech screen reader, not only reading all buttons and labels on the screen, but also texts. I think it is called "espeak" in the terminal.
Oh, what version of Ubuntu are you running? Gotta be installing 7.04 Beta tomorrow so I might try that.

Note that I don't need to read all the buttons and labels, just whatever I highlight. I can give an example on youtube if you like.

motin
April 15th, 2007, 04:59 PM
Text to Speech. I really miss this feature on OS X where you can highlight any piece of text in any program and OS X will speak it out loud for you - it even works in the terminal, really helpful for reading man pages.


Oh, what version of Ubuntu are you running? Gotta be installing 7.04 Beta tomorrow so I might try that.

Note that I don't need to read all the buttons and labels, just whatever I highlight. I can give an example on youtube if you like.

I am running Feisty and it's still here, but I remember fooling around with these settings on Dapper and having Ubuntu read to me out loud. Unfortunately as it seem not to be good at pronouncing Swedish I didn't find it very useful...

Chrisj303
April 16th, 2007, 08:22 AM
Professional software.

Sunnz
April 16th, 2007, 08:31 AM
Apache, mysql, clemav, etc are all pretty professional...

It is so professional that OS X Server includes them by default!!!

Chrisj303
April 16th, 2007, 09:17 AM
I meant professional COMMERCIAL software support, mainly for the creative industries. For me, as a result of lack of softwrae, ubuntu is little more than a web browser.

For me, everything about OSX is better than ubuntu.

Sunnz
April 16th, 2007, 09:24 AM
Ohh COMMERCIAL, right.

Bind comes to mind, the DNS server for *nix, and just like the list above, is bundled by default in OS X Server as well as Ubuntu Server. It is commercial software too.

But for creative software, you just got to get a Mac, the Mac itself IS the industry standard for creative stuff.

motin
April 16th, 2007, 11:48 AM
From the discussion above I put up two votes on "Support for professional creative software"

jclmusic
April 16th, 2007, 02:37 PM
it's a sad state of affairs, but certainly true to say that if any linux distro had as much marketing as apple, we'd make more progress.

pirothezero
April 16th, 2007, 03:02 PM
I meant professional COMMERCIAL software support, mainly for the creative industries. For me, as a result of lack of softwrae, ubuntu is little more than a web browser.

For me, everything about OSX is better than ubuntu.
Id this ubuntu's fault though? Seems like it falls more on the companies that make the software you want. Sure an open source coder could give a go on a program like cubase or absynth but how far would they get to making the actual thing?

I am reminded of a raid implementation of unraid which suites a friend of mine and my needs when it comes to raid, thing is its proprietary and just the other day he was saying sucks that some closed source jerkass came up with it and an open sourcer didn't jump on it. I don't blame ubuntu for it I blame the open source community and if I wasn't two lazy I myself would give it a go.


Have you seen the OS X feature overview page (http://www.apple.com/macosx/overview/)?

What are the 4-5 features where Apple is miles most ahead of Ubuntu according to you?

Summary of the first 2 pages (updating as fast as I can ;) ):

Feature (Votes)
Support for professional creative software - Inkwell etc (3)
Real Drag 'n' drop (2)
Text to Speech (2)
Time Machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html) (1)
Savvy marketing (1)
Exposé (1)
Spotlight (1)
Ease of installation (1)

Ignored:
Implementation and integration of DRM technologies into the operating system (1)
How close is beagle to spotlight? I've never used a mac for anything other then quick safari use at a library or something so I know abs. nothing about them.

Same goes for Ease of installation, does it some how forgo all user input during install or something?


it's a sad state of affairs, but certainly true to say that if any linux distro had as much marketing as apple, we'd make more progress.
Ya =|. very little money in open source software, ibm would have been right if bill gates showed up to them with ubuntu instead of ms-dos hehe.

Henry Rayker
April 16th, 2007, 03:22 PM
The only problem with this "professional software" request is that even you said you wanted commercial software. Until you convince those companies to support this OS, you won't stand a snowball's chance in hell. [Also, as a side-note, all of the professional engineering software I used while I was an intern (as well as what we use in my classes) are ONLY available on Linux/Solaris machines...funny, that...computer engineers have all the fun]

Isn't something similar to Expose available in Beryl? I'd like to see a similar thing available for the non-3d-accelerated users, but alt-tab is just fine for the time being. I recall seeing several projects (Expocity is one) but I think they've been (for a long time) defunct. I see Time Machine as being a waste of space and, ironically, time. If you go around deleting files like a mad-man, maybe it would be useful...but in the last year, I've deleted one file I didn't mean to...

This "Real Drag n Drop" doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Either I don't understand it or I just wouldn't use it. I don't know what kinds of files you'd feel like moving around between apps...

Chrisj303
April 17th, 2007, 12:25 AM
The thing is, i don't care if i have to pay for an operating system. I also don't mind paying for software - it's all about the quality.



303

motin
April 17th, 2007, 12:33 AM
The thing is, i don't care if i have to pay for an operating system. I also don't mind paying for software - it's all about the quality.

I see it as what gives you most gain back from the time spent on administrating the system/applications. The time spent to earning the license fees for the operating system are seldomly a lot in the long run. Having to pay for every used app however, with all fuss and overcosts connected with that obstacle - when there are free alternatives to most of it - is what makes it worth for me using a Linux system instead.

Can you specify any concrete features of OS X that Ubuntu needs?

rccharles
April 17th, 2007, 04:39 AM
Mac OS does a good job of remembering the size and position of my windows so the next time I open the window, I got the same window size and position. Mac OS remembers the setting of all my folders, so when I open the window, I do not have to repeat what I have down the last time.

Integrated Administration.. I do not care if it is X or some monitor driver. All in the same place.

Group all windows of an Application together. I can say minimize all Firefox windows. I can say get all my Firefox windows back.

Would be nice if Terminal & gedit used the same shortcut keys for copy and paste.

Robert

motin
April 17th, 2007, 08:36 AM
Mac OS does a good job of remembering the size and position of my windows so the next time I open the window, I got the same window size and position. Mac OS remembers the setting of all my folders, so when I open the window, I do not have to repeat what I have down the last time.

Integrated Administration.. I do not care if it is X or some monitor driver. All in the same place.

Group all windows of an Application together. I can say minimize all Firefox windows. I can say get all my Firefox windows back.

Would be nice if Terminal & gedit used the same shortcut keys for copy and paste.

Robert

Could specify this more as specific features? I've put up "Unified administration" for you so far.

3rdalbum
April 17th, 2007, 12:32 PM
This "Real Drag n Drop" doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Either I don't understand it or I just wouldn't use it. I don't know what kinds of files you'd feel like moving around between apps...

Think this:

Highlight a street address in Firefox and drag it to your desktop. That creates a text clipping (double-click on it to read). Later on, when you want to use that address in a letter, you can simply drag it straight into your Abiword document and it will appear. You cannot do that in Linux yet.

Or, let's say you use KDE, but your preferred media player is Banshee. You would be able to drag and drop files from Konqueror straight onto the playlist's icon in Banshee. I haven't tried this particular example, but it probably wouldn't work - KDE references things by URL, and Gnome programs just use standard Unix filepaths. Dragging from KDE to Gnome rarely works.

Or, you've got a folder open in Nautilus, with some images you want to work on in The Gimp. Rather than go to the File > Open menu item, and then navigate around to a folder that you've already got open, you would simply be able to drag the image straight onto The Gimp's entry in the taskbar. Then, when it's open, you could drag a second file straight onto the Gimp window, and that would import the second image as a new layer.

I don't expect WIndows users to really understand how great a properly integrated drag 'n' drop system is - most Windows users don't really know that it's there. (I taught a Windows system administrator how to drag and drop between programs on Windows!) But this is very disconcerting for former Mac users, when dragging and dropping doesn't work properly.

EDIT: Here are some timesaving drag and drop tricks. You can drag and drop files from Nautilus onto "Open" or "Save" dialogs in GTK. Although you can't "Alt-Tab" while dragging, you CAN drag a file over your desktop pager, wait a second, and then Gnome will switch workspaces for you, so then you can continue your drag to a program on the new workspace; for instance, Firefox or Nautilus.

Alfa989
April 17th, 2007, 10:11 PM
An iLife-ish application suite...

Chrisj303
April 17th, 2007, 11:57 PM
Also i like the way OSX dosen't use cryptic naming of folders - i always know exactly were i am.
I think that can be a real turn-off for newbies, myself included.

The way you can use OSX without ever dropping to command line is a massive plus as well - i don't know anybody apart from me who is even the slightest bit interested in doing this.

Proper hardware support - everything i have ever plugged onto OSX works first time. I've only ever had to install 1 driver.

These things all add to the reason why linux enjoys a 0.57% user base, it is up to ubuntu, amonngst other distro's, to make it a realistic alternative. When this happens the user base will go up, then proffessional software developers might consider releasing products for it.
chrisj303

mac.ryan
April 18th, 2007, 02:49 AM
These things all add to the reason why linux enjoys a 0.57% user base, it is up to ubuntu, amonngst other distro's, to make it a realistic alternative. When this happens the user base will go up, then proper software developers might consider releasing products for it.

...it sounds like you are assuming current developers aren't "proper"... :(

weird.

My vote also goes to a better integration of the desktop environment (d'n'd).

Chrisj303
April 18th, 2007, 06:00 AM
...it sounds like you are assuming current developers aren't "proper"... :(

weird.

My vote also goes to a better integration of the desktop environment (d'n'd).

sorry i meant ' professional' - it was late!

edited


303

Slackpacker
April 23rd, 2007, 04:08 AM
I found this thread deeply weird... I don't really want any of the features listed!

I've been using macs forever, with no desire to switch to Windows. On the other hand, I don't feel compelled to upgrade to OSX 10.5 at all. 10.4 has been absolutely wonderful.

I don't need Time Machine - I've made it this far without a data-nanny.

Expose is great, especially on large screens - I'm optimistic that Beryl will match it as it matures... but one of Linux's great strengths is providing modern functionality on older hardware: Beryl isn't necessary.

I've found desktop search most useful in highly collaborative environments, where it doesn't make sense to create multiple user accounts - Beagle looks promising, but few mac users I know really use Spotlight that much.

I actually got used to the GNOME and Xfce UIs pretty quickly, even with deep-set OSX UI instincts.

I say let Apple keep the home movie, garage band, and creative crowds - just like MS has hardcore gamers. I got into Ubuntu for the flexibility, geekery, and price - not because it's hip.

There are certainly commercial apps I need to use, but I don't demand or expect them on Linux. I use Ubuntu as a generic substitute for OS X or Windows - I only expect that it perform "core functions" like email, word processing, web browsing, file transfer, pdf viewing, basic image editing, and music playback.

There are three things I really miss:

Really easy networking. Compare NFS sharing to Apple's AFP. File transfer and other network management is so easy on Macs that it became a core function for me. I could teach anybody how to connect two macs. I read up before attempting Ubuntu, but I got blind-sided by this and spent hours figuring it out.

Plug-and-play video mirroring and dual monitor setup. It's been said before. I'm confident it'll happen eventually as X.org is improved. But I've gained a lot of respect Apple for making this so simple and robust.

iTunes. Apple created One Player to Rule Them All, and I've never looked back. I'm not talking about the DRM'd store or Quicktime. There are (at least) a dozen music players for Linux, but none of them do everything as well as iTunes does. Instant search, smart playlists, integrated CD ripping & burning, radio, large library support, proper key bindings, and a simple interface. Rhythmbox is an acceptable substitute; Songbird looks promising, but if Apple released Linux iTunes I'd be all over it.

isilmeraumo
April 23rd, 2007, 05:01 PM
I'd vote for more Desktop integration. We really need some UI designers to get to work and make everything look and feel more seamless like Apple has done, well, for the most part. Beryl is nice, and I feel it has the power to make the desktop better then either Mac OS X or Vista, but all the videos you see of it are of all the useless gadgets and eye candy. Apple did it very well, the 3d effects are very tasteful, not over the top, so much that you don't even realize the desktop is 3d.

I would like to put a negative vote against DRM, until there is a useful purpose for it besides more customer lock-in, I will avoid it like the plague. Granted, there might be some positive use, no one seems to be using it for such and its just become more of a detriment to just using computers as the tools they are.

As for professional software, most of it is equal to lower quality then open source it seems, seems software engineering companies are bent on churning out product updates with more bloat then actually putting out quality software. Open source doesn't have a marketing or group of investors breathing down their necks. Granted, I'd love to see Gimp become as good or better then Photoshop, and some other applications, I'm sure, become good enough to replace the ridiculously expensive professional versions. Now if only I was an application developer instead of a kernel.

Sunnz
April 23rd, 2007, 08:32 PM
I'd like to out a negative vote against DRM as well!!!

However it is not like Apple uses for its own greed like Microsoft, they are more or less 'forced' to use it because the content providers such as the music and movie industry insist on them - and they have clearly fight against it, and have fought well, since at least one out of four big music company are going to offer DRM-Free songs in iTMS.

But hey, at least they don't use DRM in their Operating Systems... well I mean they need it for DVD reader and stuff, but you can't just sell a computer with libdcss in them.

I mean, it is the people who organises the DVD encryption thing who are insisting having DRM... so why not complain those guys instead of Apple, who needs sell computers in a legal way?

I mean, the organisation of DVD encryption are the one who make playing DVD on Linux possibly illegal in some countries, they should get in trouble for this, why isn't anyone doing anything about it, but instead blaming it to Apple?

motin
April 23rd, 2007, 11:18 PM
iTunes. Apple created One Player to Rule Them All, and I've never looked back. I'm not talking about the DRM'd store or Quicktime. There are (at least) a dozen music players for Linux, but none of them do everything as well as iTunes does. Instant search, smart playlists, integrated CD ripping & burning, radio, large library support, proper key bindings, and a simple interface. Rhythmbox is an acceptable substitute; Songbird looks promising, but if Apple released Linux iTunes I'd be all over it.

How does Amarok match up against iTunes? In my and many others' eyes - it is superior, you sure you have tried it?

Slackpacker
April 24th, 2007, 10:15 AM
How does Amarok match up against iTunes? In my and many others' eyes - it is superior, you sure you have tried it?

Funny you mention it, so many people love AmaroK that I knew about it before I knew about Ubuntu! That was the first thing I tried. But for some reason it didn't scan my library, and it's a KDE app, and after years of iTunes I didn't like the interface. Exaile! did better, but I didn't like its playlist system and the shuffle function was wonky and key bindings didn't work. Rhythmbox is the most iTunes-like. And the whole situation isn't helped by having a 100% AAC library.

motin
April 25th, 2007, 03:15 PM
Also i like the way OSX dosen't use cryptic naming of folders - i always know exactly were i am.
I think that can be a real turn-off for newbies, myself included.

I was also concerned about this. Then, I realized that for 99% of all "newbie" tasks, nobody needs to visit any other folder than their home folder - which they can structure as they like.

I had the bad habit of actually was forced to know most system folders in Windows since many applications by default saved my personal settings and files there - know I only need to check some files in /etc in case I followed a howto somewhere.

dubrict
April 26th, 2007, 07:10 AM
PLUG AND PLAY MONITOR CONFIGURATION!!

I wish I knew more about programming, that would be the first thing I'd work on in ubuntu.

mac.ryan
April 26th, 2007, 12:05 PM
I was also concerned about this. Then, I realized that for 99% of all "newbie" tasks, nobody needs to visit any other folder than their home folder - which they can structure as they like.

More important: directories and files naming/distribution are - to a great extent - part of the POSIX standards, or are a "de facto" standard, that if changed autonomously from other POSIX OS's would make things more difficult in the long run (just think to the configure scripts you have to run before issuing a make...)

TrioTorus
April 27th, 2007, 12:00 AM
A simple feature:

when I drag and drop an item in a directory I don't have write permission, I get an error informing me about permission AND a button to authenticate. Usefull if I need to install an application in the /Application folder. Safe, secure and not in my way.


Apart from a few of these little desktop enhancements I actually believe that the big difference between quality of software is actually on the SERVER field. Indeed, apple ships apache, bind, nfs, LDAP, DHCP,... open source quality software, but the user never needs to read old howto's. Just point and click a single button to start the webserver, to get automatic ip, to connect to LDAP, to share with windows,... And have you ever seen the Server Admin tool? Or the directory administration tool? All client software such as the calender and addres book and mail work with it very transparently. A true world of difference with the only currently available webmin or ispconfig tools in ubuntu...

Although I don't agree with keep the creative people at the mac, a easy to use small business server should really be an ubuntu goal, don't you think? If you can only use ubuntu to surf the web or to read a pdf, you better get yourself an well sized mobile phone.

I actually use commercial 3d software every day on ubuntu and you can try a completely free version at http://www.sidefx.com
It works magnificently on ubuntu. There is also pftrack (tracking software) and Nuke (compositing). All top quality creative software and available now. My hopes are for editing video that the open source diva or pitivi projects mature, but it's all certainly possible.

just my 2 cents.

jiminycricket
May 12th, 2007, 05:15 PM
For me:

1. A dock. I can't stand taskbars and quick launchers anymore :) The dock is the most elegant way to manage windows. It doesn't have to be all zoomy (eg., Avant Window Navigator has a really nice alpha and fade mode in svn version), but I need it to combine tasks and applications in one.

Everything else is coming to Linux in terms of plug n play monitors and search, so that's OS X's killer feature for me.

longears
May 16th, 2007, 07:25 PM
Dual monitor support!!!

AlphaMack
May 17th, 2007, 05:07 AM
^ Agreed.

joe.turion64x2
May 17th, 2007, 05:16 AM
Ubuntu really does need to catch up in the implementation and integration of DRM technologies into the operating system.
Are you mad? One beautiful part of Linux is freedom and DRM would only handicap it.

aysiu
May 17th, 2007, 05:17 AM
Are you mad? One beautiful part of Linux is freedom and DRM would only handicap it.
I think 3rdalbum was being sarcastic.

joe.turion64x2
May 17th, 2007, 05:23 AM
I meant professional COMMERCIAL software support, mainly for the creative industries. For me, as a result of lack of softwrae, ubuntu is little more than a web browser.

For me, everything about OSX is better than ubuntu.
Have you tried to run a Virtual Machine in Linux (with VMWare perhaps)? That could solve your problem.

joe.turion64x2
May 17th, 2007, 05:24 AM
I think 3rdalbum was being sarcastic.
Hopefully.

tgalati4
May 17th, 2007, 06:20 AM
I've used both Dapper and Tiger 10.4.8 for the past year and a half. Tiger certainly has the polish in several areas that folks have already mentioned.

Some things worth mentioning: Applescript is cool, but knowing a little Bash you can script anything that you can do in Applescript. Applescript feels more like Visual Basic.

The mac uses CUPS for the printing system. Other than the System Preferences Print Dialog box, the printing system is the same.

Mac uses a form of BSD called Darwin on top of the Mach kernel. The entire Mac OS X is optimized for a single family of processors (PPC and now Intel) and a single set of motherboard and graphics card families. The internals for each generation of macs is similar so the OS can be tightly integrated to the hardware.

It's really amazing that I have Dapper running on 6 different machines. PI, PII, PIII, P4, with Intel, nVidia, and ATI graphics cards. 4 different manufacturerers are represented: Dell, Compaq, HP, and a few whitebox (ASUS, ECS).

The hardware features work well in Tiger (on a Powerbook G4), such as standby, 8 seconds to sleep (save to disk), 5 seconds to wake, volume keys, brightness keys, powersaving, touchpad is responsive, etc.

On Dapper, it takes 35 seconds to put a Dell Inspiron 7500 to standby, and 65 seconds to wakeup from standby. Dapper on the powerbook is rough in several areas--but development on ppc has stopped so it's moot to expect improvement.

Dapper has exhibited excellent reliability, uptime measured in months, where reboots are only needed for certain upgrades (like new kernels). Tiger has similar uptimes although I find reboots are required more often because memory leaks with all of the big applications can bring Tiger to a crawl. It's not runaway processes, but memory that doesn't get released resulting in swapping after several weeks of use. It's annoying but not a showstopper.

So when you consider that Tiger has been optimized for a specific family of hardware and Dapper runs on several platforms including PPC, it's amazing that Dapper has reached the level of functionality that it has.

It's a difficult comparison, but if you have the money, buy a mac. If you don't use, Ubuntu and save $2000. (MacBook Pro $2500 versus $497 used Thinkpad, $3 can of silver spraypaint, and $0 for Ubuntu).

Sunnz
May 17th, 2007, 06:54 AM
Some things worth mentioning: Applescript is cool, but knowing a little Bash you can script anything that you can do in Applescript. Applescript feels more like Visual Basic.

Cool is there a Applescript guide? I did tons of bash scripting on Linux and Mac and would like to see if Applescript can do more.

AlphaMack
May 18th, 2007, 05:45 AM
tgalati4, PPC development hasn't exactly stopped. If you've been amazed by Dapper, try Feisty.

zAo
May 21st, 2007, 03:29 PM
Hardware support, hardware support and more hardware support (still no way to het Wifi on my iMac....)

Hotplugging for mouses/screens

Oh, and more hardware support ..

lopagof
May 21st, 2007, 10:38 PM
(slightly) better graphical flow.:KS

lopagof
May 21st, 2007, 10:39 PM
also better hardware support

aysiu
May 21st, 2007, 10:47 PM
also better hardware support
How so?

lopagof
May 22nd, 2007, 01:18 AM
some features of hardware are missing/not available in their linux drivers. mainly printers and wifi cards.

joe.turion64x2
May 22nd, 2007, 03:06 AM
If Ubuntu made the hardware... hey, perhaps Linux distributions (Ubuntu included) could team (or do it alone) to manufacture hardware "Designed for Linux" (with drivers for Windows too so they get a greater market).

It would be nice for example to get Linmodems or wifi for Linux.

Besides that could be another source of funding and would completely eliminate the problem of 'hardware support' (in those devices of course).

Joe.

Alfa989
May 22nd, 2007, 01:14 PM
If Ubuntu made the hardware... hey, perhaps Linux distributions (Ubuntu included) could team (or do it alone) to manufacture hardware "Designed for Linux" (with drivers for Windows too so they get a greater market).

It would be nice for example to get Linmodems or wifi for Linux.

Besides that could be another source of funding and would completely eliminate the problem of 'hardware support' (in those devices of course).

Joe.

That'd be GREAT!

themerchant
May 22nd, 2007, 02:37 PM
One thing, and one thing only, Spotlight, UBUNTUS SEARCH FUNCTION SUCKS!

Rhubarb
May 22nd, 2007, 02:54 PM
One thing, and one thing only, Spotlight, UBUNTUS SEARCH FUNCTION SUCKS!
sudo aptitude install beagle

Try out beagle, you'll be amazed.

godd4242
May 23rd, 2007, 03:12 AM
Beagle is good. Infact it is very good.

Ease of installation + hardware compatibility.

Imagine the users who would switch to Ubuntu because they know they can get the Compiz cube and wobbly windows on a low end machine from 4-5 years ago? (yes it can be done, just keep the pixel count down)

The more users in FOSS, the stronger the community gets as a whole.

joe.turion64x2
May 24th, 2007, 01:46 AM
Beagle is good. Infact it is very good.

Ease of installation + hardware compatibility.

Imagine the users who would switch to Ubuntu because they know they can get the Compiz cube and wobbly windows on a low end machine from 4-5 years ago? (yes it can be done, just keep the pixel count down)

The more users in FOSS, the stronger the community gets as a whole.
The 3D cube is really useful to attract more users. It would be nice if it could be run in older machines as well in non ATI & NVIDIA & Intel cards too.

Flump5000
May 26th, 2007, 10:29 PM
ubuntu would be easier if it had dvd playback etc all ready for you when you install it just for people who arent so good at computers. thats what makes mac so much easier to switch to than linux: because people are lazy and dont want to learn. i dont balme them though. i use ubuntu on one of my computers, but my favorite os is osx, still.

AusIV4
June 1st, 2007, 03:12 AM
My girlfriend just got a Mac yesterday, and I've been playing around with it quite a bit. She loves the text-to-speech and plays with it all the time. Also, having switched from Ubuntu, she finds it easier to download and run programs from her web browser rather than needing another application.

But the thing that most impresses me about OSX is how it treats programs (and I'm not sure it can be easily translated to Ubuntu). When you run a program (say Firefox), it starts up firefox, and opens a window. When you close the window, Firefox continues to run in background until it is shut off. So next time you click the firefox icon, it's already in memory and the window pops up immediately. This seems to be the case with all programs. I like that you can tell it to load your most commonly used programs on startup, so they're ready when you need them.

3rdalbum
June 1st, 2007, 12:54 PM
I like that you can tell it to load your most commonly used programs on startup, so they're ready when you need them.


sudo apt-get install preload

mijj
June 3rd, 2007, 12:35 AM
I assume that OS X doesn't fall apart each time there's a kernel update. Ubuntu could do with that.

Do Mac users need to learn how to wade about in the psychic interface? (the command line interface, i think it's called)?

hanzomon4
June 3rd, 2007, 10:48 PM
I wonder if we are going to see more OSX like functions in linux coming from GNUstep+Etoile...

lopagof
June 3rd, 2007, 11:04 PM
This post made me remember when stewie off of family guy was playing with the speach function on his mac. lol

nick.inspiron6400
August 16th, 2007, 05:31 PM
I hate to say this but Linux is never going to be the main player, maybe the Mac.

Linux uses Microsoft's patents. And we all have found things that are exactly the same in Windows.

If you want Linux to grow, go to Novell.

Microsoft will sue "Linux" and then we are in trouble. It is a matter of time before Microsoft makes a move on us.

Linux is communism.

Sunnz
August 16th, 2007, 05:38 PM
Troll? Satire?

joe.turion64x2
August 16th, 2007, 07:45 PM
Troll? Satire?
Mostly a troll.

karellen
August 17th, 2007, 02:34 AM
I hate to say this but Linux is never going to be the main player, maybe the Mac.

Linux uses Microsoft's patents. And we all have found things that are exactly the same in Windows.

If you want Linux to grow, go to Novell.

Microsoft will sue "Linux" and then we are in trouble. It is a matter of time before Microsoft makes a move on us.

Linux is communism.

thanks man, you've made my day...I've never had a good laugh since last weekend :lolflag:

Nekiruhs
August 17th, 2007, 02:37 AM
I hate to say this but Linux is never going to be the main player, maybe the Mac.

Linux uses Microsoft's patents. And we all have found things that are exactly the same in Windows.

If you want Linux to grow, go to Novell.

Microsoft will sue "Linux" and then we are in trouble. It is a matter of time before Microsoft makes a move on us.

Linux is communism.
Dear God I hope that was sarcasm.
/me runs for cover from flamewar

Depressed Man
August 17th, 2007, 03:46 AM
My girlfriend just got a Mac yesterday, and I've been playing around with it quite a bit. She loves the text-to-speech and plays with it all the time. Also, having switched from Ubuntu, she finds it easier to download and run programs from her web browser rather than needing another application.

But the thing that most impresses me about OSX is how it treats programs (and I'm not sure it can be easily translated to Ubuntu). When you run a program (say Firefox), it starts up firefox, and opens a window. When you close the window, Firefox continues to run in background until it is shut off. So next time you click the firefox icon, it's already in memory and the window pops up immediately. This seems to be the case with all programs. I like that you can tell it to load your most commonly used programs on startup, so they're ready when you need them.

I know this is a couple months old but. Does it use up less memory when it's "closed"? It seems to me when I close a program I'd actually want it to be closed as completly gone.

And what do you mean by load most commonly used programs on startup. Is it like Windows Vista's super prefetching where it learns what programs you frequently launch and thus reserves some RAM for them (to launch quicker?). Or do you mean they launch at startup. If it's the latter then Ubuntu can already do that (just have to add them to sessions).

howdy1
August 20th, 2007, 02:54 AM
I hate to say this but Linux is never going to be the main player, maybe the Mac.

Linux uses Microsoft's patents. And we all have found things that are exactly the same in Windows.

If you want Linux to grow, go to Novell.

Microsoft will sue "Linux" and then we are in trouble. It is a matter of time before Microsoft makes a move on us.

Linux is communism.
Windows claims patent infringement, but they won't state specifics about it. You want a FUD campaign? That's it. It's just a rouse. NASA is Linux dependent. The GNU multicomputer utilities allow them to have the processing power they need. Do you think NASA is going to get sued?

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS7317694195.html

What have you found in GNU/Linux that is the same as Windows? Furthermore, the idea of Windows originated and was put out by Apple. I say this in the sense of how we think of GUI computing today.

http://toastytech.com/guis/win1983.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lisa

Lisa was the first GUI system.

http://www.comphist.org/pdfs/CompHist_9812tla7.pdf

You'll notice that Windows came out the year previous to the Macintosh system, but the Apple had the drop down menus and icons like Windows didn't have then. Now, who stole what?

Also, a vague and unsupported argument like, "Linux is communism." is exactly why there can't be intelligent, fact based discussions regarding reasons to switch to Windows or GNU/Linux. Linux is an operating system. GNU is a philosophy. If you had compared GNU to communism, it would have at least been comparing apples to apples.

Windows fanatics, GNU/Linux is its own operating system with features uniqe to it. One of the perks is the variety of replacements for high-end commercial software. Add to that the fact that you can modify that software and distribute it for free. It's freedom that Windows users can't claim on as much of their software.

Ozdemon
August 20th, 2007, 03:13 AM
Ubuntu really does need to catch up in the implementation and integration of DRM technologies into the operating system.

Is this a joke? :roll:

One of the main reasons I deserted windows was all the DRM crap, which is even worse in Vista.

Ubuntu (and Linux) is so much better without the DRM virus. =D>

drakos
August 21st, 2007, 08:04 AM
One thing I wish Ubuntu could do better was amateur music production like Garageband, which I found to be extremely easy and intuitive. Sadly every linux alternative is either buggy, or involves a crash course in figuring out JACK. I don't give up easily so I'm sure I'll just take the time to learn the ins and outs of Ardour and Rosegarden, but I'd wager that linux could win over a lot more of the starving musicians with more approachable music productiuon software.

linuxpyro
August 22nd, 2007, 04:29 PM
Hmm, keep in mind that Ubuntu (or other distros) and OS X are different operating systems... As mentioned earlier, we shouldn't aim to copy.

That said, I can say that Linux (various distros, I think) is used a lot for Hollywood visual effects, and so there are a lot of high-end commercial apps that deal with 3D, compositing, etc. In fact, until recently Massive (http://www.massivesoftware.com/) only ran on Linux (now they have a Windows port).

I do most of my computer work on my Ubuntu Laptop and my Gentoo Desktop. I really don't have any issues doing basic things, like Web/Email/movies/word processing. On my desktop (Gentoo, and a more powerful machine) I do 3D in Maya, and some audio stuff with Ardour/Jack (yes, tough to learn, but it works for me). I'm comfortable with this stuff.

Yes, unified drag'n'drop would be awesome. But I'm not a huge user of that anyway; maybe I would be, but I don't have to be. I am pretty comfortable with the command line, and so am not as tied to a particular desktop. As such this does not keep me up at night. Better dual-monitor support would, as mentioned, be great too. I think in the case of Nvidia drivers though this has come a long way with nvidia-settings.

What we have available to us as Linux users is choice. If everyone working on the different desktop environments got together and agreed, we'd have something that many people would agree would blow OS X out of the water (some would argue we already did this to Windows, but that's a different topic...). If you really want that sort of environment, though, Apple has already done it. It's good, but it's not perfect (is anything?). I've known people to switch away from OS X to Ubuntu. If you Like OS X, use it. That's what matters.

Detox06
August 23rd, 2007, 04:51 AM
Ubuntu needs a dock. An INTEGRATED dock. I know Kiba-dock exists, but I'd rather have a dock that is already part of the system so i don't have to install it.

One click installs would be nice, too. Or at least greater community support for .deb files. Specifically for useless bumps like me that have no internet. lol.

joe.turion64x2
August 23rd, 2007, 05:34 AM
Ubuntu needs a dock. An INTEGRATED dock. I know Kiba-dock exists, but I'd rather have a dock that is already part of the system so i don't have to install it.

One click installs would be nice, too. Or at least greater community support for .deb files. Specifically for useless bumps like me that have no internet. lol.
It would be a great thing if Ubuntu provided a FULL package with everything for use of offline systems. Unfortunately due to proprietary restrictions Ubuntu does not bundle all this things in its media like other distros. I like the fact that Sabayon, for example, includes everything needed in its media.

Joe.

Chrisj303
August 24th, 2007, 10:25 PM
*Perfect* Hardware/OS integration.:)

Detox06
August 25th, 2007, 01:26 AM
It would be a great thing if Ubuntu provided a FULL package with everything for use of offline systems. Unfortunately due to proprietary restrictions Ubuntu does not bundle all this things in its media like other distros. I like the fact that Sabayon, for example, includes everything needed in its media.

Joe.

I'm not really worried about proprietary stuff, like MP3 and DVD support, etc. I realize the legal issues there, but something like Kiba-Dock, its free software. I can install it, and use it, and give it away, all without getting in any legal trouble. Something like that would be nice. Same with .deb files. Gweled can be freely copied and moved and etc, but it took me months to find a .deb for it. Maybe have a *legitimate* software site where we could post .deb files. Monitor it for illegal usage, but let free stuff stay. I'd love to have a couple F/OSS packages/games, but I can't get them because my linux machine has no internet connection. Thats more what I meant. I wasn't so much asking for people to get me proprietary drivers and that. Just stuff I need and could freely get if I had an internet connection.

Depressed Man
August 25th, 2007, 04:57 AM
Detox06, you mean a site like www.getdeb.net . If so I agree. Maybe there should be a link to it somewhere when you first get the desktop (as a suggestion for a place if you are looking for software).

exoren22
August 30th, 2007, 11:19 PM
Time Machine (http://www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/timemachine.html) would be nice to have as well, not necessarily as fancy graphic as they have, but should not be that difficult - seems like a cvs repository + cron job + some nice GUI frontend.

sudo dd if=/dev/[hdd partition] of=[anywhere you want]

motin
August 31st, 2007, 03:03 PM
sudo dd if=/dev/[hdd partition] of=[anywhere you want]

Wow, either that was a total random spam, or you really misunderstood what the timemachine feature is about. Read up on it (the suggestion "cvs repository + cron job + some nice GUI frontend" is a good hint) and then check if you can contribute to this thread.

Thanks

asmith3006
September 12th, 2007, 11:35 AM
It doesn't have an OTT gui on it, but TimeVault does exactly what you want.
sudo apt-get install timevault
and it'll work perfectly. And it doesn't need a seperate hard drive like Time Machine does for some reason.

zcrar70
September 12th, 2007, 06:37 PM
My vote:

Plug-and-play video mirroring and dual monitor setup (unified, rather than per-driver)
Support for professional creative software (the biggest one for me, all Linuxes severely lack in that dept)
An INTEGRATED dock by default (AWN looks promising)
A tidy and consistent GUI layout (I know that this has improved a lot recently, but it's still a long way off of the Mac and even Windows, particularly where applications sticking to layout guidelines are concerned)
Really easy networking (the network admin tool in great, but it doesn't work fully; Feisty still doesn't recognise my WPA connection through the GUI)


-1:

The way it treats programs - when you run a program (say Firefox), it starts up firefox, and opens a window. When you close the window, Firefox continues to run in background until it is manually closed. (I think this is a matter of what one is used to, I for one don't think this would be worth implementing)
Implementation and integration of DRM technologies into the operating system (huh? how would this be a benefit?)

motin
September 15th, 2007, 10:38 AM
It doesn't have an OTT gui on it, but TimeVault does exactly what you want.
sudo apt-get install timevault
and it'll work perfectly. And it doesn't need a seperate hard drive like Time Machine does for some reason.

Is this a vote for the TimeMachine feature? Very unclear vote...

Info:
TimeVault may be included in gutsy+1. A beta version is available at https://launchpad.net/timevault/+download , more info at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeVault


sudo apt-get install timevault
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
E: Couldn't find package timevault



My vote:

Plug-and-play video mirroring and dual monitor setup (unified, rather than per-driver)
Support for professional creative software (the biggest one for me, all Linuxes severely lack in that dept)
An INTEGRATED dock by default (AWN looks promising)
A tidy and consistent GUI layout (I know that this has improved a lot recently, but it's still a long way off of the Mac and even Windows, particularly where applications sticking to layout guidelines are concerned)
Really easy networking (the network admin tool in great, but it doesn't work fully; Feisty still doesn't recognise my WPA connection through the GUI)


-1:

The way it treats programs - when you run a program (say Firefox), it starts up firefox, and opens a window. When you close the window, Firefox continues to run in background until it is manually closed. (I think this is a matter of what one is used to, I for one don't think this would be worth implementing)
Implementation and integration of DRM technologies into the operating system (huh? how would this be a benefit?)


Aight! Thanks for your vote(s).

Sunnz
September 15th, 2007, 10:48 AM
It doesn't have an OTT gui on it, but TimeVault does exactly what you want.
sudo apt-get install timevault
and it'll work perfectly. And it doesn't need a seperate hard drive like Time Machine does for some reason.

Umm TimeVault looks interesting...

As a note, Time Machine is really suppose to be a backup software, so it would make sense to backup to a separate hard drive.

I am currently doing backups on a different computer using rsync; nowhere as good as Time Machine but does the job.

hellion0
September 15th, 2007, 06:17 PM
My vote:

-1:

The way it treats programs - when you run a program (say Firefox), it starts up firefox, and opens a window. When you close the window, Firefox continues to run in background until it is manually closed. (I think this is a matter of what one is used to, I for one don't think this would be worth implementing)
I'd love to see this feature, personally. Maybe Firefox doesn't need it, but XMMS/Rhythmbox/VLC/(insert your media player of choice here) would do well to have such a function.

Depressed Man
September 16th, 2007, 05:33 AM
Maybe an option for certain programs to do it. The majority of the time when I close a program, I intend for it to close and skedadle from my RAM.

There's few times where I don't want it to close (usually a mistake on my part by clicking the X or red dot)

Sunnz
September 16th, 2007, 06:11 AM
Maybe an option for certain programs to do it. The majority of the time when I close a program, I intend for it to close and skedadle from my RAM.

There's few times where I don't want it to close (usually a mistake on my part by clicking the X or red dot)
I think this should be an option for the developer of what the X button does.

This is the case for OS X Apps, Apps that make sense to quit by the X button does so. And ultimately the user has the option to quit any program by selecting the quit option from the menu bar.

Ultra Magnus
September 17th, 2007, 04:31 PM
I'd love to see this feature, personally. Maybe Firefox doesn't need it, but XMMS/Rhythmbox/VLC/(insert your media player of choice here) would do well to have such a function.

I vaguely agree - in that some programs like OOo take so long to start that having a preloader is useful and it would be nice to be able to have the option for other programs aswell - but this shouldn't be the default behaviour. - Way too much unneeded power consumption

Chrisj303
September 17th, 2007, 11:54 PM
DECENT SOFTWARE

On my Mac, i have the following installed;

Apple Logic Pro 8

Final Cut Pro

Soundtrack Pro 2

Ableton Live 6

Peak Pro 5

Adobe Photoshop CS3

Reason 3


None of these applications has anything near a Linux equivalent. It just dosen't.

exoren22
September 21st, 2007, 10:40 PM
Maybe an option for certain programs to do it. The majority of the time when I close a program, I intend for it to close and skedadle from my RAM.

There's few times where I don't want it to close (usually a mistake on my part by clicking the X or red dot)

There already is that option. Pidgin does this. It's a matter of 3rd party coding.

Also, my dd thing was a joke. I really don't think time machine is really that amazing or earth shattering.

My vote is for multi-touchpad support; the only thing i like from macs is a hardware issue, though, so that really doesn't count.

Sunnz
September 22nd, 2007, 08:12 AM
DECENT SOFTWARE

On my Mac, i have the following installed;

Apple Logic Pro 8

Final Cut Pro

Soundtrack Pro 2

Ableton Live 6

Peak Pro 5

Adobe Photoshop CS3

Reason 3


None of these applications has anything near a Linux equivalent. It just dosen't.
Well have you ever expressed your desire as a customer to those vendors?

karellen
September 23rd, 2007, 06:53 PM
DECENT SOFTWARE

On my Mac, i have the following installed;

Apple Logic Pro 8

Final Cut Pro

Soundtrack Pro 2

Ableton Live 6

Peak Pro 5

Adobe Photoshop CS3

Reason 3


None of these applications has anything near a Linux equivalent. It just dosen't.

so? use mac os x then...

motin
September 25th, 2007, 01:26 AM
Well have you ever expressed your desire as a customer to those vendors?


so? use mac os x then...

Are these votes? "Support for professional creative software" is a perfectly valid vote, so please stay on topic. Thanks