View Full Version : Join the Great Dvorak Migration!
helloyo
April 13th, 2007, 02:59 AM
I'm sure you're all more then proficient with qwerty, but I'm also sure that was also the case with windows. I am in the process of learning the dvorak layout and want some linux users to join me.
Here is some great information: http://www.dvzine.org/
If you want to join me we can use this thread to discuss our progress and obstacles.
Let the migration begin!
maniacmusician
April 13th, 2007, 03:04 AM
The only program with dvorak is that it's not standardized; if you ever have to work on someone elses computer, you'll be as slow as a turtle, because you won't be used to qwerty. And I work on other computers all the time (library, school, fixing other people's computers).
helloyo
April 13th, 2007, 03:35 AM
The only program with dvorak is that it's not standardized; if you ever have to work on someone elses computer, you'll be as slow as a turtle, because you won't be used to qwerty. And I work on other computers all the time (library, school, fixing other people's computers).
that's true, but so far i am surprised at how easily i can swap between layouts. its like learning a language. you'll be best with what you use all the time, but you don't forget the others.
another issue is RSI and carpal tunnel syndrome. we all do our fair share of typing, but us heavy computer users can benefit from dvorak the most.
i am typing all this in dvorak, so i am still woefully slow...
TravisNewman
April 13th, 2007, 04:11 AM
The only program with dvorak is that it's not standardized; if you ever have to work on someone elses computer, you'll be as slow as a turtle, because you won't be used to qwerty. And I work on other computers all the time (library, school, fixing other people's computers).
Just carry a Dvorak keyboard with you everywhere :)
I used Dvorak for about a year, but it got annoying switching between the two.
zanglang
April 13th, 2007, 06:05 AM
It does sound tempting... I'm not a touch typist, more a improved 2-finger hunt-and-pecker, but after doing a lot of typing recently I had to relax both of my wrists on my lap while reading the magazine comic. It's scary to think I might already be suffering from RSI for a long time.
Are external Dvorak keyboards easy to find outside the US? Can anyone share their experience with learning Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard?
helloyo
April 13th, 2007, 07:46 AM
It does sound tempting... I'm not a touch typist, more a improved 2-finger hunt-and-pecker, but after doing a lot of typing recently I had to relax both of my wrists on my lap while reading the magazine comic. It's scary to think I might already be suffering from RSI for a long time.
Are external Dvorak keyboards easy to find outside the US? Can anyone share their experience with learning Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard?
this is a perfect oppurtunity to learn touch typing with dvorak. it is supposedly much easier to learn. it seems to be recommended not to change your keyboard or keys, so you have to learn how to touch type. so to change all you have to do is change your keyboard settings.
let me know if you need any help!
total wormage
April 13th, 2007, 09:08 AM
The only program with dvorak is that it's not standardized; if you ever have to work on someone elses computer, you'll be as slow as a turtle, because you won't be used to qwerty. And I work on other computers all the time (library, school, fixing other people's computers).
i don't experience any problems switch between dvorak and qwerty, i was not a slow typist on qwerty and didn't become one after learing dvorak :]
it's just very very nice to get home :p
Engnome
April 13th, 2007, 09:42 AM
I did, a year ago. Not looking back. :D
Tsen
April 13th, 2007, 09:54 AM
I tried switching to Dvorak, and I liked it, but it caused a bunch of trouble because my roommates need to use my desktop at the dorms often times, and it confused them, and at home it bothered my mother (though not my brother, who learned to type in Dvorak at decent speeds in a week). I set it up so you could switch between Dvorak and Qwerty via the taskbar on the Windows box at home, but that still baffled my mom, so I just gave it up. I type fast enough in Qwerty, and it's more universally used, so I don't bother with Dvorak anymore.
happy-and-lost
April 13th, 2007, 12:08 PM
Have been using Dvorak for about.... 4 months now. I love the look on peoples' faces when they see my laptop keyboard. "Where's the "S"?!"
jgrabham
April 13th, 2007, 12:23 PM
Why? Whats the point in it?
Weve been using qwerty for like 100 years why change now?
Also I learned to use a computer before I could write, (I can type faster than I can write), so learn again what Ive been doing for 10 years?
mediax
April 13th, 2007, 12:36 PM
Can anybody recommend a UK source for cheap (or at least surprising affordable) Dvorak keyboards?
helloyo
April 13th, 2007, 03:20 PM
Have been using Dvorak for about.... 4 months now. I love the look on peoples' faces when they see my laptop keyboard. "Where's the "S"?!"
hehe. how are you finding it? is it more comfortable? can you type any faster?
Why? Whats the point in it?
Weve been using qwerty for like 100 years why change now?
Also I learned to use a computer before I could write, (I can type faster than I can write), so learn again what Ive been doing for 10 years?
the point is that qwerty is a near random layout that has stuck around due to economic reasons. it is an inferior layout that can result in injury for many users. we can apply your same logic to our windows computers. why did you change to linux despite having to relearn a lot of things? because its better.
Can anybody recommend a UK source for cheap (or at least surprising affordable) Dvorak keyboards?
its recommended to stick with your current keyboard as to enforce touch typing. at the least i'd recommend trying/learning on your current keyboard.
Luggy
April 13th, 2007, 04:48 PM
I'm sure you're all more then proficient with qwerty, but I'm also sure that was also the case with windows. I am in the process of learning the dvorak layout and want some linux users to join me.
Here is some great information: http://www.dvzine.org/
If you want to join me we can use this thread to discuss our progress and obstacles.
Let the migration begin!
The biggest reason I have not to convert from qwerty to dvorak is that, for whatever reason, I may have to look at my keyboard I don't want to see qwerty.
That link does mention how to rip out and replace the keys on my keyboard, so it does sound tempting.
Shay Stephens
April 13th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Thank you for the link. I was never too keen on relearning a new keyboard layout, but I did just switch to linux, and the dvorak layout is a better layout. So I am going to take the plunge and just do it. Hopefully in about a month, I will be back to typing like a champ :-)
The 21st century, it is time to make smarter changes.
roylond
April 14th, 2007, 07:34 PM
Have been using Dvorak for about.... 4 months now. I love the look on peoples' faces when they see my laptop keyboard. "Where's the "S"?!"
Where did you get your keyboard from ?
I have trying to get one in the UK but so far no joy except that I am not willing to pay £125 for one
chickengirl
April 14th, 2007, 09:27 PM
I joined the revolution a few months ago. AOEU FTW!
For people wondering about rearranging their keys / buying a new keyboard: there are companies that make stickers that you can use to relabel your keys without having to pull all the keys out and physically rearrange them. Not all keyboards can have the keys physically rearranged (ergo keyboards, for example), but if you can, it's tons of fun. :D Don't worry too much about breaking the keyboard, in my experience the keys are not that fragile (dunno about laptop keyboards though). Switching your keyboard layout is a software change, not hardware, so you really don't need a new keyboard at all.
atomic_turtle
April 14th, 2007, 10:04 PM
Hi,
I'm with jgrabham on this one. I see that it might not make very much sense to join a forum discussion of the kind of "let's do..." if you don't want to do whatever that may be, but this is the community chat area.
I'm a family man, so there's a good chance someone will come along and want to use my computer. As qwerty is what's in use on most computers in this part of the world, that's what everyone knows, so why confuse people...
Moreover, as far as my knowledge of it goes, the main advantage of dvorak is that it's possible to type very fast on it. If there's any more, please tell me, I don't know anymore because nobody told me.
I did a typewriting course in grammar school and I can type on a qwerty keyboard at very decent speed without looking at the thing. Without bragging, I don't see too many people around me doing that - and what's more important, I'm quite satisfied with my speed, so I don't see why I'd need a keyboard to enable me to go faster still - I already often have the problem, particularly on slower machines, that I'm obviously typing too fast, so the machine freezes for a second and then spits a whole sentence on the screen in one go, then freezes again and so on.
Regards,
atomic_turtle
chickengirl
April 15th, 2007, 12:07 AM
Moreover, as far as my knowledge of it goes, the main advantage of dvorak is that it's possible to type very fast on it. If there's any more, please tell me, I don't know anymore because nobody told me.
The main advantage of dvorak isn't speed, it's that it's ergonomic and more comfortable to type with.
igknighted
April 15th, 2007, 12:35 AM
From my understanding, the main purpose of the qwerty layout as back when typewriters were used, they needed to slow typists down, because a well lai out keyboard would let typists go so fast the heat generated would damage the typwriter. Now that computer do not have this problem, there is no reason to purposefully restrain ourselves with qwerty.
helloyo
April 15th, 2007, 12:59 AM
The main advantage of dvorak isn't speed, it's that it's ergonomic and more comfortable to type with.
yep. most people seem to return to there qwerty speeds within 3-4 weeks and then get a bit faster, but in most cases not significantly. the main reason to change is ergonomics, and if you rely on a keyboard this is VERY important!
for the people who have multiple users on the same account KDE has a system tray utility that with one click will swap between the layouts.
dspari1
April 15th, 2007, 01:00 AM
I just switched to ubuntu recently(kubuntu actually), and now you're expecting me to do something even nerdier? That's outrageous!
jgrabham
April 15th, 2007, 01:08 AM
From my understanding, the main purpose of the qwerty layout as back when typewriters were used, they needed to slow typists down, because a well lai out keyboard would let typists go so fast the heat generated would damage the typwriter. Now that computer do not have this problem, there is no reason to purposefully restrain ourselves with qwerty.
It was to stop the typewriter jamming. keys used most commonly together like e and i and t and h were put seperatly, so they wouldnt stick
Shay Stephens
April 15th, 2007, 02:08 AM
I just switched to ubuntu recently(kubuntu actually), and now you're expecting me to do something even nerdier? That's outrageous!
So outrageous it just might work!!!
I switched yesterday, partly because I was already trying new stuff, and partly to try and shed the old legacy stuff I have just been doing "just because". When I switched yesterday my speed of course tanked to under 5 wpm, but now, about 24 hours later, with only light typing, my typing speed has improved about 200% to 13.5 wpm. I probably need another 200-400% to catch up to where I was speed wise with qwerty, but I can tell that the keyboard is laid out much more efficiently. My fingers are not flying around as furiously as they used to. It is better, it just takes some work to get used to it.
atomic_turtle
April 15th, 2007, 11:35 AM
Hi,
@jgrabham and igknighted
That is interesting indeed, I didn't know that - jamming seems to make more sense than heat-generation, but probably the two went together - heated-up metal bits get bigger and jam more easily.
so dvorak is more ergonomic than qwerty. Well, I've just bought a "MS Natural Ergo Keyboard 4000" for Germany. Of course, I haven't tried it out yet, I'm still in f* Ireland. Once I've got used to that, I might try with the dvorak layout to see if it has any additive positive effect or offsets some of the effects of the Ergo-keyboard. If so, switching between layouts for different users shouldn't be a problem - I am doing that for american and irish layout already.
Regards,
atomic_turtle
helloyo
April 15th, 2007, 11:49 AM
good work everyone who has given it a shot! interested to hear how it goes.
a very nifty little typing tutor: dvorak7min
its in the repos, i highly recommend it!
amar
April 15th, 2007, 12:32 PM
I have used Dvorak on and of for about a year now. The main problem I have found is keyboard shortcuts. Ctr X, Ctr C, Ctr V annoy me when I cant find them. Punctuation marks can also give me trouble.
Advantages Include a security system where by no one else will mess with my laptop until I disable it and that I can now type in the dark.
I have tried in the past to touch type in Qwerty but quickly reverted every time.
richardjennings
April 15th, 2007, 01:12 PM
I found this thread after reading about Dvorak on slashdot.org I thought another main advantage of a 'proper' dvorak keyboard was that the keys are aligned vertically. I had never really considered that the keys on a qwerty keyboard are slanted. Now that I realize, I have also noticed how much of a hindrance it is. Interestingly, apparently the keys were originally spaced diagonally to allow space for the hammer mechanisms in early typewriters. Millions of people are hindered by this. It seems a little ridiculous to me.
` 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 [ ] ! " £ $ % ^ & * ( ) { }
' , . p y f g c r l / = @ < > P Y F G C R L ? +
a o e u i d h t n s - # A O E U I D H T N S _ ~
\ ; q j k x b m w v z | : Q J K X B M W V Z
i have just changed my keyboard layout to devorak & have a renewed sympathy for people who cannot type. typing blind is fun but this has taken an awfully long time to write this post. I am hitting the keys too hard as if it gives me more chance of getting it right.
daynah
April 15th, 2007, 03:22 PM
I keep trying to switch to dvorak. I get to learning middle row and then I stop, 'cause this is how it goes.
First of all, in normal typing, I'm mostly touch typing. But I keep my fingers high off of the keyboard (like a piano player would keep their fingers high off the keys you know) so when my hand gets bumped or something, I glance down. No big deal, I type at like 80-90wpm depending on whether you count backspaces in qwerty.
So, I go to dvorak and my brain says, "Oh that's one you don't know. Just take a quick glance." and I have my qwety keyboard, and I'm trying to type something that's a letter in dvorak but on qwety is punctuation and my whole world gets TURNED UPSIDE DOWN (okay maybe not that dramatic) and I sit there and I say this...
"S S... S... dang it... S... S... S..." I just keep repeating the key I wanna press like it's going to hear me and jump out in front of my face.
~sighs~
Anyway, boys and girls, here's how you switch to dvorak in Ubuntu.
To Switch Keyboards:
System > Pref > Keyboard (who woulda thunk it)
Layouts > Add> US or UK depending on your flavoUr.and add Dvorak. If you're in America, you have the choice of "classic dvorak" or plan "dvorak." Classic Dvorak reorders the numbers where even they are arranged where the most used are in the middle. Don't do that. You don't need to learn how to count. Click plain "dvorak"
Some programs use the keyboard that is set as "default" (like gedit) and some use what program is on top (like opera). So to fully tell your computer which you wanna do where, put the desired keyboard on top and as default.
To LEARN Dvorak: sudo aptitude install dvorak7min
And don't look down!
Teg_Navanis
April 15th, 2007, 04:32 PM
Thanks for the tip with dvorak7min. I just tried it out and I think I'll give it a go after finishing my university papers for this term. I don't want to be distracted from the topic I'm writing on by not being able to type properly ;)
I'm not sure if I'll could use it as standard though, as I need some keys that are lacking (ä,ö,ü).
helloyo
April 15th, 2007, 10:34 PM
wow. its great to see so many people giving this a shot! i am still more awkward then i'd like to be, but it is getting better everyday.
after a week you should know where all the keys are and hit them most of the time. after two weeks you should be able to have same slow conversations on IM. after 3 or 4 weeks you should be back to your old speed with a lot less hand movement. then you should go on to being faster. not sure how much though...
Teg_Navanis
April 16th, 2007, 12:15 AM
Hihi, I'm writing this using dvorak. It's painfully slow, but at least I know roughly where the letters are. :)
I guess I'm not contributing much to the discussion, but I still have to concentrate too much on the typing for that :p
mediax
April 16th, 2007, 12:30 PM
its recommended to stick with your current keyboard as to enforce touch typing. at the least i'd recommend trying/learning on your current keyboard.
I'd be happy to do that, but I share my computer with four other non-touch typists. I don't think they'd appreciate it too much!
I might have a go at swapping the key covers round, but my current keyboard is an ergonomic one, and I'm not sure if the key covers are identical shapes, or whether they're shaped for their location (like the tiles on the space shuttle). I'm at work at the moment, so I'll have to check when I get home.
amar
April 16th, 2007, 01:53 PM
I'd be happy to do that, but I share my computer with four other non-touch typists. I don't think they'd appreciate it too much!
Dvorak only really becomes usefull if you are touch typing, otherwise you may as well let them switch it back to qwerty (in kde, there is a flag in the system tray, one click and its changed)
atomic_turtle
April 16th, 2007, 09:46 PM
Hello helloyo,
I don't really think RSI and whatchamacallit is really an issue - well, of course it is, RSI is real, no denying that. A colleague of mine had it - but I think it's more likely to come from using the mouse without an appropriate pad. It can also happen if you're touch-typing, so your wrist lies on the table all the time, but then, get a wrist-pad again...some modern ergonomic keyboards actually have wristpads built into the design.
I have a computer-workplace myself, so I spend all my working day (roundabout 7hrs excl. breaks) in front of the screen, and then two, three hours after work. I'm active in about 7 forums, so I do a lot of typing, but I'm never having any problems there...
So - ergonomics is not really an issue to me because I'm not having problems and neither is speed because I'm fast enough already... I think I'll stay in bed, you migrate without me ;-)
Regards,
atomic_turtle
nautilus
April 16th, 2007, 10:28 PM
8 years here, i don't move my keys around anymore :)
i don't have a particular problem switching between the layouts...
i do, however, get really strange responses when i make a typo, particularly because of the way the vowels are places in a row.
see, they tend to make words and ... words that i didn't mean, so they think i have a dictionary complex.
(as for speed, it can be ridiculously fast sometimes. my brain has a hard time keeping up, most of the time... but i'm a programmer, we aren't 'normal'.)
IYY
April 17th, 2007, 03:42 AM
I am not relearning the vi shortcuts. No Dvorak for me.
helloyo
April 17th, 2007, 04:14 AM
Hello helloyo,
I don't really think RSI and whatchamacallit is really an issue - well, of course it is, RSI is real, no denying that. A colleague of mine had it - but I think it's more likely to come from using the mouse without an appropriate pad. It can also happen if you're touch-typing, so your wrist lies on the table all the time, but then, get a wrist-pad again...some modern ergonomic keyboards actually have wristpads built into the design.
I have a computer-workplace myself, so I spend all my working day (roundabout 7hrs excl. breaks) in front of the screen, and then two, three hours after work. I'm active in about 7 forums, so I do a lot of typing, but I'm never having any problems there...
So - ergonomics is not really an issue to me because I'm not having problems and neither is speed because I'm fast enough already... I think I'll stay in bed, you migrate without me ;-)
Regards,
atomic_turtle
well i've heard from a lot of people that would disagree... with the amount of typing that you do you're a perfect candidate for RSI and carpal tunnel. then there goes your income...
atomic_turtle
April 17th, 2007, 06:22 PM
Hi helloyo,
well, you're right about me being a "candidate" for it, I agree there. What is carpal tunnel, anyway? Never heard of it. It's just, I'd realize if I had it, wouldn't I? As far as I know, it's quite a painful thing and for the colleague who has it - probably, wouldn't know what else - it is.
Regards,
atomic_turtle
helloyo
April 17th, 2007, 10:32 PM
Hi helloyo,
well, you're right about me being a "candidate" for it, I agree there. What is carpal tunnel, anyway? Never heard of it. It's just, I'd realize if I had it, wouldn't I? As far as I know, it's quite a painful thing and for the colleague who has it - probably, wouldn't know what else - it is.
Regards,
atomic_turtle
the ergonomics of dvorak help a lot to stop these conditions, but even if you weren't going to develop them its still a lot more comfortable to type.
carpal tunnel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome
changing is a hassle, and not for everyone, but heavy typists who can spare two or three weeks of slow typing should definitely consider it.
good luck!
Teg_Navanis
April 18th, 2007, 01:49 AM
I'm now doing the last exercise in dvorak7min regularly to get acquainted with dvorak before I try the switch, and I take a screenshot every time I finish. This has two reasons:
1. I'm interested in learning processes and it is nice to be able to verify some of the findings of educational science, for example the importance of breaks (and sleep) for learning. After finding that my performance did not improve significantly when I did the exercise twice in a row, it was nice to see a clear boost the next morning.
2. It is a nice motivation to play against oneself and see if you can do it faster than last time. It is nice to know that I nearly doubled my speed since yesterday. ;) I had much fun refreshing my geography knowledge that way: http://www.purposegames.com/geoquiz
I did the exercise in qwerty for comparison's sake and I was surprised to find that, after only 76 minutes of using dvorak, spread over 3 days, I already achieve half the speed I do with qwerty! Admittedly, I still make 5 times as many mistakes, which would slow me down significantly if I had to correct them manually, and I have to concentrate more, but still I find the number amazing. Now I'm off, trying to get closer to my qwerty score... ;)
der_joachim
April 18th, 2007, 06:14 PM
I started last saturday actually. Although typing is sometimes painfully slow, I am already able to type decent amounts of texts without having to look at the keymap. My fingers sometimes feel as if somebody tied a knot in them, but overall I am starting to feel more comfortable. Touch typing is still difficult and I am starting to need a new backspace key. :)
Atreus12
April 18th, 2007, 06:38 PM
I decided to switch about 2 years ago. It was nice because it is more 'comfortable' to type, and I noticed less typing mistakes as well.
Unfortunately I'm back to qwerty at the moment, because as great as dvorak is, the shortcuts don't make any sense, especially in VI.
helloyo
April 18th, 2007, 09:59 PM
why don't vi users remap the shortcuts so they keep there original locations?
its great to see so many people giving this a proper go, hang in there, it gets a lot easier very quickly!
mssever
April 19th, 2007, 05:41 AM
I'll give this a shot when I have time to make a proper attempt. Anything to pry my eyes off the keyboard!
jshipley
April 19th, 2007, 06:24 AM
I've started to use dvorak in the past. I am convinced that it is a much better layout, and I want to switch. The real problem last time I switched was that I was taking a typing course. I was typing near 80 wpm, and my grade depended on improving that speed. I was going to switch to dvorak shortly after that, but I didn't.
I've also had issues with family complaining about dvorak being turned on, or accidentally hitting a key combination that switched to dvorak. That was a few years back. I doubt that my wife would mind, I can keep qwerty set up on her accounts, and I can use dvorak on my accounts and at work.
Count me in. :guitar:
edit: my only concern is emacs shortcuts. I'm sure that won't be too much trouble, but it will be an annoyance, at least at first.
zacinator
April 20th, 2007, 06:00 PM
This is day five for me... I am typing faster each day, but still a ways to go to catch up to my qwerty speed. Does anyone get that "carsick" feeling when you mess up a lot (at least in the beginning)? It definitely is easier to learn and more comfortable!
diskotek
April 20th, 2007, 07:53 PM
we have same discussion here on "F keyboard"... some computers sold with "f keyboard" that you can type much words in minutes without fingers-aches: because qwerty is not good for turkish.
i would like to use it but i'm not sure for now :(
note: mostly mac computers sold with "f keyboard" options
daynah
April 20th, 2007, 08:25 PM
Day 2. My brain feels tired.
Snodgrass
April 21st, 2007, 04:11 AM
How do you change your keyboard settings? I don't find a Dvorak option in System->Preferences->Keyboard. I saw one during installation, but it's too late for that. :)
Shay Stephens
April 21st, 2007, 04:19 AM
Go to the layout tab, then click add. For me it was found under "U.S. English" and then select "Dvorak".
orengolan
April 21st, 2007, 09:51 AM
i started the tutorial and it looks interesting.
I wonder if you have some kind if a way to remember the keys.
for example - i know that the vowels are located at the 'home' row, and used by the left hand.
in addition, the . , " are grouped in the upper left row, and also used by the left hand.
anything else that can help?
is there a fast way in Ubuntu (Gnome) to switch between key layouts?
can anyone find the slashdot article about it or any other good info about Dvorak?
thanks!
chickengirl
April 22nd, 2007, 01:03 AM
i started the tutorial and it looks interesting.
I wonder if you have some kind if a way to remember the keys.
for example - i know that the vowels are located at the 'home' row, and used by the left hand.
in addition, the . , " are grouped in the upper left row, and also used by the left hand.
Since the keys were arranged with ergonomics in mind, they are placed logically in this fashion:
vowels are under left hand home, important punctuation is under left hand top row. (as you noticed)
most common consonants are under right hand home, next-most common right hand top, then right hand bottom, finally :QJKX, the least used letters, are under left hand bottom row, the hardest keys for a right-handed person to reach.
Also, common digraphs like TH, SH, CH, etc, are arranged so that so that an outer finger hits the first letter, and an inner finger hits the second. This is a very natural action. Drum your fingers, see which direction you do it in?
helloyo
April 22nd, 2007, 01:21 AM
Since the keys were arranged with ergonomics in mind, they are placed logically in this fashion:
vowels are under left hand home, important punctuation is under left hand top row. (as you noticed)
most common consonants are under right hand home, next-most common right hand top, then right hand bottom, finally :QJKX, the least used letters, are under left hand bottom row, the hardest keys for a right-handed person to reach.
Also, common digraphs like TH, SH, CH, etc, are arranged so that so that an outer finger hits the first letter, and an inner finger hits the second. This is a very natural action. Drum your fingers, see which direction you do it in?
that's a great explanation.
its good seeing so many people giving this a go. at the beginning it is not easy, and it really taxes your brain so be sure to take plenty of breaks.
i feel more comfortable with dvorak now then qwerty, but i still get confused at times, other times it flows nicely. its definitely much more comfortable though.
me1on
April 22nd, 2007, 02:05 AM
Alright guys, you convinced me to try to switch to the Dvorak keyboard! I haven't really thought about using a different keyboard configuration, but now that I think about it, Dvorak makes a lot more sense. I found a pretty cool program for learning the Dvorak keyboard called "KTouch." (It's in the repositories- just do "sudo aptitude install ktouch"; I've attached a screenshot of the program below)
This site (http://labs.jphantom.com/wpm/) is pretty useful for finding out how fast you type. With QWERTY, I can type around 70wpm with 4 mistakes. I wonder how long it will take me with Dvorak to catch up to that speed. :)
mikerduffy
April 22nd, 2007, 02:41 AM
I have everything set up to make the switch, but I'm holding off until I find a good way to label my keys with the Dvorak layout in red, in the lower right corner of each key.
Also, nice find with that test website, me1on!
me1on
April 22nd, 2007, 04:20 AM
For everybody who doesn't have an actual Dvorak keyboard (like me :) ), you can print out this keyboard diagram (http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dvorkeys.pdf) to help you remember where the keys are.
mssever
April 22nd, 2007, 04:45 AM
is there a fast way in Ubuntu (Gnome) to switch between key layouts?
By default, hitting Ctrl+Shift toggles keyboard layouts. Because such a combination conflicts with other keyboard shortcuts, I've configured my system to toggle on Shift+Caps Lock.
To configure it:
You'll probably want to add Keyboard Indicator to your panel so you can see what's currently active.
Right click on the keyboard indicator and choose Keyboard Preferences.
Click the Layout options tab.
Expand the Group shift/lock behavior item.
Check Shift+CapsLock changes group and uncheck all others.
chickengirl
April 22nd, 2007, 04:58 AM
I have everything set up to make the switch, but I'm holding off until I find a good way to label my keys with the Dvorak layout in red, in the lower right corner of each key.
Also, nice find with that test website, me1on!
Hooleon.com (http://www.hooleon.com/menu-dvorak.htm) has dvorak keyboards and key labels. This (http://hooleon.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=OV-0647&Category_Code=OV-D) looks like what you want.
mikerduffy
April 22nd, 2007, 07:27 AM
Hooleon.com (http://www.hooleon.com/menu-dvorak.htm) has dvorak keyboards and key labels. This (http://hooleon.com/miva/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=OV-0647&Category_Code=OV-D) looks like what you want.
That's perfect.
horace
April 22nd, 2007, 11:44 AM
Well, I have adapted one of my old keyboards to give this a try, and I'm typing this very slowly! I might be missing something obvious here but my keyboard layout only changes to dvorak after I have logged in, so I now have to put in a strange user name and password to log in!
As for chickengirl's explanation of how the pairs are arranged, I drum my fingers from the inside out, so I am finding a combination like th harder than in qwerty - but I'll stick at it!
Sef
April 22nd, 2007, 12:43 PM
Anyway, boys and girls, here's how you switch to dvorak in Ubuntu.
To Switch Keyboards:
System > Pref > Keyboard (who woulda thunk it)
Layouts > Add> US or UK depending on your flavoUr.and add Dvorak. If you're in America, you have the choice of "classic dvorak" or plan "dvorak." Classic Dvorak reorders the numbers where even they are arranged where the most used are in the middle. Don't do that. You don't need to learn how to count. Click plain "dvorak"
Some programs use the keyboard that is set as "default" (like gedit) and some use what program is on top (like opera). So to fully tell your computer which you wanna do where, put the desired keyboard on top and as default.
To LEARN Dvorak: sudo aptitude install dvorak7min
And don't look down!
Thank you Daynah.
orengolan
April 22nd, 2007, 07:15 PM
By default, hitting Ctrl+Shift toggles keyboard layouts. Because such a combination conflicts with other keyboard shortcuts, I've configured my system to toggle on Shift+Caps Lock.
To configure it:
You'll probably want to add Keyboard Indicator to your panel so you can see what's currently active.
Right click on the keyboard indicator and choose Keyboard Preferences.
Click the Layout options tab.
Expand the Group shift/lock behavior item.
Check Shift+CapsLock changes group and uncheck all others.
thanks, works great.
progress report: two days with dvorak, slow but almost no mistakes.
I love it!
orengolan
April 22nd, 2007, 07:35 PM
great tutorials: (I love the third one)
http://dvzine.org/type/tutors.html
Dvorak keyboard wall paper:
http://dvzine.org/stuff/downloads.html
ButteBlues
April 22nd, 2007, 08:32 PM
thanks, works great.
progress report: two days with dvorak, slow but almost no mistakes.
I love it!
I'm definitely going to look into this. I ran some analyses on some of my ML posts, and every key I hit the most falls in the home row for DVORAK. O_O
jms
April 23rd, 2007, 03:42 AM
I've just taken apart my keyboard and rearranged the keys into the Dvorak layout.
This post took forever to write!
pelikan
April 23rd, 2007, 04:11 AM
This is fun (20 sec). Something about this tickles my brain in a good way (1.5 mins). It's tough after 25 years of QUERTY (1 min).
/hits "Post Slow Reply" button
chickengirl
April 24th, 2007, 02:28 AM
Ah yes, I remember my first few days when it took an ice age to type ANYTHING. Keep going! Soon you'll be chattering away! =D>
zacinator
April 24th, 2007, 05:54 PM
After one week i'm up to 30 words per minute (with some errors)! However,it still is frustrating when I am used to 70. Hopefully soon!
Anyways, how can I change the keyboard layout for the login screen? For some reason it loads with qwerty.
horace
April 24th, 2007, 08:45 PM
After one week i'm up to 30 words per minute (with some errors)! However,it still is frustrating when I am used to 70. Hopefully soon!
Anyways, how can I change the keyboard layout for the login screen? For some reason it loads with qwerty.
I don't know if it is the 'right' way to do it, but I edited my xorg.conf and changed "XkbLayout" setting to "dvorak,gb" - worked for me!
Pobega
April 24th, 2007, 11:47 PM
I've been practicing Dvorak almost all day now and I've gotten almost nowhere, it's so hard to get the hang of. This message alone took me about five minutes to type.
pelikan
April 25th, 2007, 12:03 AM
After one week i'm up to 30 words per minute (with some errors)! However,it still is frustrating when I am used to 70. Hopefully soon!
Anyways, how can I change the keyboard layout for the login screen? For some reason it loads with qwerty.
In KDE keyboard layouts, whichever layout is at the top of the list is the one you boot into.
helloyo
April 25th, 2007, 12:14 AM
I've been practicing Dvorak almost all day now and I've gotten almost nowhere, it's so hard to get the hang of. This message alone took me about five minutes to type.
take a break! its how the brain learns, you tend not to make progress until you've had a sleep and let it absorb. after a week it will still be annoying but you'll be typing much more quickly.
good luck!
Tundro Walker
April 25th, 2007, 05:07 AM
I remember studying the Krebs cycle in college biology, and pointing out to the teacher that it would much more efficient if it took a little twist here and there to produce more energy molecules with less effort. He agreed, it would be more efficient...but, that wasn't how it evolved.
The Dvorak keyboard reminds me of that. Necessity was the mother of invention, but now that were past the necessity the trend is so set that we can't evolve to something better.
It'll take something major to cause a paradigm shift...like if suddenly the worlds best super-widget (you know...some kind of portable phone / mp3 player / sex toy / etc) only used Dvorak keyboard layout, and nobody could live without that super-widget. So, everyone was forced to learn it. Or, if governments enforced Dvorak keyboard learning in schools and at government work-sites. Or, if suddenly all the "leet haxorz" thought it'd be cool to start using Dvorak, and it started some trend like wildfire.
Seriously, the life improvement would have to out-weigh the learning curve, and in this case, I think most folks just don't think the cost-benefit ratio is worth it. Not to say it won't ever happen. You just have to catch 'em while they're young...before they learn any keyboard layout. The schools have show that you can screw up a child's education with that "new math"...maybe it can be counter-balanced with teaching them Dvorak keyboards.
However, remember that the Scientific community still uses Latin to name Biological species. It's just one of those things that's hard-set and hard to overcome.
Ephilei
April 25th, 2007, 06:32 AM
Wow! I've never heard of Dvorak before, but I came up with this idea years ago: put the vowels and common letters on the home row, etc. I'm interested in learning, but what's the best way to get started? It doesn't seem wise to go at it all at once, so I don't want to physically moves keys, but how else can I learn (I don't have multiple keyboards)?
Has anyone created an app that would display the Dvorak layout on the screen at all times?
helloyo
April 25th, 2007, 06:43 AM
Wow! I've never heard of Dvorak before, but I came up with this idea years ago: put the vowels and common letters on the home row, etc. I'm interested in learning, but what's the best way to get started? It doesn't seem wise to go at it all at once, so I don't want to physically moves keys, but how else can I learn (I don't have multiple keyboards)?
Has anyone created an app that would display the Dvorak layout on the screen at all times?
best way to learn is to learn all the keys with something like ktouch, or dvorak7min, both available in the repos. once you have learned where the keys are you just have to start using it. in about 2 weeks it will be quite usable, then you'll get back to your old speed in 3-4 week after switching.
you don't need to change your keyboard. this way you are forced to learn how to touch type properly.
good luck!
Ephilei
April 25th, 2007, 07:43 AM
Apparently Mac OS X has exactly the floating keyboard I hoped for built in which supports Dvorak and animates to show the key you pressed. Not to gloat, but it's those little, well thought out features that keep me excited about Macs.
Pobega
April 26th, 2007, 12:56 PM
take a break! its how the brain learns, you tend not to make progress until you've had a sleep and let it absorb. after a week it will still be annoying but you'll be typing much more quickly.
good luck!
Thanks for the pointer, it's actually really helpful; I'm doing much better now, I'm up to about 15 words per minute.
I'm liking Dvorak a lot, but I hate that I'm on a laptop; I'm probably not going to try to switch the keys around to Dvorak, because if I break one then I'm pretty much screwed :(
der_joachim
April 26th, 2007, 06:38 PM
I'm liking Dvorak a lot, but I hate that I'm on a laptop; I'm probably not going to try to switch the keys around to Dvorak, because if I break one then I'm pretty much screwed :(
I may be stating the obvious, but why not plug in an external keyboard? I am a programmer and I have never used my laptop's keyboard. I would probably have hurt myself if I had. ;)
daynah
April 26th, 2007, 06:42 PM
der_joachim , because I don't want to carry it around? I haven't seen any of those spiffy roll up or other such kind in dvorak style
Anyway, I've discovered that I can't, absolutely can't, type in Dvorak or Qwerty unless the keys say that. I look at Qwerty far more than I thought I could, though I type very, very, fast. And Dvorak, I don't type half bad on it (I'm at like 40 wpm now), but if it isn't a Dvorak keyboard I'm doomed.
This situation poses a problem when the power goes out and I have to log into Ubuntu... even though I have everything set for Dvorak, it still has Qwerty! I had to unplug my dad's keyboard and stare at it to type in my username and pass. Considering how paranoid I am, not having a login isn't an option. Any suggestions to actually fix it, as opposed to the "print out a qwerty picture" work around?
Chonnawonga
April 26th, 2007, 11:34 PM
Seriously, the life improvement would have to out-weigh the learning curve, and in this case, I think most folks just don't think the cost-benefit ratio is worth it.
You're probably right about all that. For me, comfort and safety were the big issues. Dvorak is WAY easier to learn and use. As for learning, it helps to learn important letters first, and less important ones later. Who cares if you don't remember where J is? (Well, John maybe, and James...)
I started learning Dvorak last summer... right before I switched from Windows to Ubuntu, in fact. It took me two or three months to get back to the 80 or 90 WPM range, but again, it was much easier than it was with QWERTY. Also, it's less work typing on Dvorak.
My girlfriend doesn't complain too much, because I make it easy to switch. Any and all machines we have around have the same easy shortcut to switch layouts. The only problem arises when somebody who can't touch-type tries to use my computers, on which I've rearranged the keys to Dvorak.
A year later, I'd never switch back. QWERTY's just too much work and too uncomfortable. Why do that to my fingers?
Pobega
April 27th, 2007, 02:42 AM
I may be stating the obvious, but why not plug in an external keyboard? I am a programmer and I have never used my laptop's keyboard. I would probably have hurt myself if I had. ;)
An external keyboard is too much to lug around with me, considering I'm always on the move.
Chonnawonga
April 28th, 2007, 12:41 AM
An external keyboard is too much to lug around with me, considering I'm always on the move.
Under those circumstances, I think I'd just get stickers.
KIAaze
April 28th, 2007, 01:12 AM
When the Optimus Keyboard (http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/) comes out, things will get fun. :D
fuscia
April 28th, 2007, 02:04 AM
if someone moves the keys again, i'm screwed.
dr_d12
April 28th, 2007, 02:11 AM
When I heard about Dvorak a few years ago, I also heard that one of the design objectives of QWERTY was to allow a salesman with his fingers sitting on "home position" to see all of the letters to easily type "typewriter" even if the salesman couldn't type it would look like he could.
So many Qwerty keyboards out there - I use maybe 4 different computers in a day so I'd have to have my own keyboard in my pocket if I wanted to switch.
Tundro Walker
April 28th, 2007, 06:33 AM
Holy Cow, that Optimus Keyboard is a marvelous idea if it's doing what I think it's doing...IE: each key is it's own little visual display. So, you can easily switch keyboard layouts ON THE KEYBOARD, by just changing the letter each key displays. Brilliant! And it has a nice row of "extra" keys to program with your fav icons for quick-launch. Cool!
I really wish virtual keyboards (http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/8193/) would hurry up and become more advanced and less pricey. That would make it easy to change your keyboard layout, and it'd be portable (if it was built into the device).
I can easily see in the next 5-10 years, your computer not having a keyboard, mouse or monitor. Instead, these things would be virtual...projections for each. You'd have a virtual keyboard projected for typing. A virtual "mouse pad" would operate the mouse. And, your screen would be a projection either onto a wall, or a special screen, or something else (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOSx7v87JCA). Your "work" computer will be your standard PDA, because by then it will be powerful enough to do all the utilitarian things you do with a desktop these days.
Yeah, now that I think about it, I'd better learn Dvorak now if I plan on having my fingers still nimble enough to type in the near future...LOL!
me1on
April 28th, 2007, 06:44 AM
I just took the typing test (http://labs.jphantom.com/wpm/) again, but this time using the Dvorak keyboard layout. I typed at only 16wpm with 16 mistates (compared to 70wpm and 4 mistakes with QWERTY)! Typing is much more frustrating now, but I'm still convinced to continue learning Dvorak! How long did it take you guys to catch up to your QWERTY typing speeds?
EDIT: The Optimus Keyboard is a great idea; the only downside is that it'll cost $1500 (http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/27/optimus-maximus-gets-price-and-date/). :(
Jenda
April 29th, 2007, 08:54 AM
To be honest wiv'ya folks, if English is your only language, I don't know what you're thinking about. Dvorak is the logical choice. It's better, it's cooler, it rocks :)
If English is not your only language, you have to consider the pros and cons - my primary language is Czech, then English, then French. I had to tweak the Dvorak layout to even be able to type these languages, but it's still quite bad - Typing Czech on my Dvorak is nearly as bad as on the standard Czech QWERTZ.
I took switching to dvorak as the opportunity to learn touchtyping it is. dvorak7min for the console and klavaro for the GUI are great tutors - do try them out.
The dvzine.org is a great resource for info about the dvorak.
If you like, you can join the ##dvorak channel on irc.freenode.net :)
mr_c0w
April 30th, 2007, 05:10 PM
I switched about 4 yrs ago, and here has been my experience.
My decision to switch came after I had been working in IT for about 2 yrs, and I started feeling a little bit of pain in my wrists after sitting at a keyboard all day long. Years ago, I had switched to using an ergonomic keyboard to prevent carpal tunnel syndrome or some other repetitive stress injury as my time in front of the computer increased, but now it was time to take it to the next level. I started doing some research on they dvorak layout, and it just made a lot of sense to me to put all the keys that you use right there in front of you. I was using windows at the time, and it was quite simple to switch the layout back and forth with a simple key combo. To the best of my knowledge, there were/are no dvorak ergonomic keyboards, so I knew that it was going to be pretty much blind touch-typing. I could touch-type in qwerty, but this was something else completely, because I would not be able to look at the keys while learning as I did while learning qwerty. I googled for dvorak keyboard layouts, and was able to print one and set it between the monitor and keyboard so that I would have a guide. This worked well, and my transition took about 2 weeks total to be rather proficient. During that time it was hell, as I was stuck somewhere between the two layouts, and had to hunt and peck either way I went. Putting thoughts together in email was laborious as I could not type out the words as I was thinking about them, in general, I was in a complete fog. Once, I got the layout down, the fog lifted, and while I don't feel that I have improved my speed that much, (I still hang around 60 WPM), my wrists feel good, even though I spend a good 8 hrs in front of a PC all day.
Words of advice for those looking to switch.
1. If you have a spouse or child that uses your computer, and they do not wish to use dvorak, default to qwerty for them, and your sanity. You can always set your account to dvorak, or use a key combo to switch. (Roommates are just out of luck entirely.)
2. Be sure to start learning at a time when you can afford to be a slow typist for awhile. (I took about 2 weeks, to be proficient again)
lowracer
May 1st, 2007, 03:51 PM
I switched in 1989. Took 3 weeks to re-train my brain. Haven't looked back. An added bonus is that it keeps people from messing with my computer, because when they try to type, it comes out gibberish.
der_joachim
May 1st, 2007, 06:55 PM
This is day 17 for me now. Today I felt confident enough to make Dvorak my default layout at work. :)
Shay Stephens
May 1st, 2007, 07:53 PM
It's been 18 days for me, the first day was about 5 words per minute, today I am at 28 words per minute (hunt/peck style). I ended qwerty at 47 WPM, so I am getting closer. And in fact I am fast enough now that I don't have a strong desire to go back to qwerty just to get stuff done. The next 2 weeks I hope to see me get back my old speed. Then it will be on to learning to touch type finally.
The first 2 weeks were the hardest, and I almost went back to qwerty, but once past that hump, it is all better now :)
KIAaze
May 3rd, 2007, 07:05 AM
Do you Dvorak-switchers all buy a new keyboard or do you remove the keys and replace them with the new layout?
Or do you simply not care about what's written on the keys because you're so good at typing?
As a "non-automatic" typer, I just always use a layout adapted to the keyboard I'm using, wether it's qwerty, qwertz, azerty or other.
I couldn't imagine switching to dvorak unless I had an optimus keyboard. ^^
orengolan
May 3rd, 2007, 07:42 AM
I just ignore the keys.
progress update: 10 wpm.
still slow but I don't use it at work and I also got a new keyboard (Dinovo edge (http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/upp/details/US/EN,crid=2676,contentid=12339)) so I have a good excuse..
Jenda
May 3rd, 2007, 10:06 AM
Shay Stevens, I strongly recommend starting learning proper ten-finger-typing straight away. It doesn't make sense to first learn it wrong and then re-learn it right.
As for keys - I'd love to have a blank keyboard with no letters at all. However, I don't like typing dvorak on the qwerty (although it doesn't give me much trouble when I have to), so I popped the keycaps off and switched them around.
Mihkal
May 3rd, 2007, 11:38 AM
I switched to dvorak last fall.
No more touch typing for me!:guitar:
Though I hate using qwerty at school now.:(
Lucifiel
May 3rd, 2007, 11:49 AM
Oh, I've heard about this idea before. However, doesn't it cater only for the English language? I'm quite sure that different languages use different type of words, so would the Dvorak layout improve the typing speed of a person using Mandarin or some Chinese dialect or some other language?
SunnyRabbiera
May 3rd, 2007, 12:58 PM
I would use Dvorak but it will just throw me off in my non home activities.
I have a job and I have to use a qwerty keyboard there, to keep both kyboard systems in my head is a bit much so that I dont goof up at work.
der_joachim
May 3rd, 2007, 05:51 PM
@Jenda: http://www.daskeyboard.com/. A tad expensive for me though.
@Lucifiel: I use dvorak for typing in dutch as well, which goes pretty well actually. Also do not forget that qwerty is not really suited to any language.
As for keys: I still use my old keyboards. If someone knows of a dutch or belgian shop that sells dvorak keyboards (or cheap blank ones), I'd really love to know.
n0dl
May 11th, 2007, 07:53 PM
My friend told me he chats with qwerty and programs with dvorak. So practice between the two and you should be ok
me1on
May 12th, 2007, 03:58 PM
Well, I've been using Dvorak for two weeks now, and I'm at 33wpm. It definitely feels more comfortable typing. I'm at half my old qwerty speed, hopefully I get there in a couple weeks. :)
lordharsha
May 14th, 2007, 10:54 AM
I've just switched to dvorak (yesterday), and everything seems to be fine. The only problem I seem to be having is that when I try to login, the layout is back to the default qwerty mapping. I've tried everything, removing qwerty from the keyboard layouts, making dvorak default, and switching to the default keyboard layout (dvorak) during login, but nothing helps. Any ideas? Oh, I'm using dapper.
horace
May 14th, 2007, 12:16 PM
I've just switched to dvorak (yesterday), and everything seems to be fine. The only problem I seem to be having is that when I try to login, the layout is back to the default qwerty mapping. I've tried everything, removing qwerty from the keyboard layouts, making dvorak default, and switching to the default keyboard layout (dvorak) during login, but nothing helps. Any ideas? Oh, I'm using dapper.
See my reply earlier in this thread - here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2526053#post2526053) - but there may well be a better way to do it!
lordharsha
May 14th, 2007, 03:24 PM
Thanks a lot, that fixed it. Btw, what's the difference between the us and gb keyboard layouts?
horace
May 14th, 2007, 03:42 PM
Thanks a lot, that fixed it. Btw, what's the difference between the us and gb keyboard layouts?
The only difference I can see is that @ and " are transposed - but I might have missed some!
ThinkBuntu
May 14th, 2007, 05:06 PM
I'm really hoping to get my ThinkPad over to Dvorak. I'm switching my Macbook when I get home, too. On the ThinkPad, I encountered difficulties switching keys: The B key below the Nub is purposely shifted upward, and the F and J keys only fit in each other's slots because of a design mod that allows them to have the little _ piece of plastic.
I type all day (HTML+CSS coder, more than a web designer, at my job anyway) and my left hand, especially the ring and middle fingers, are sore all the time. Dvorak is supposed to stop this, so I'll get back to you guys with my results.
QWERTY score on that typing test: 75wpm (well, 74.97 to be precise). Actually a nice jump since a few years ago when I took my last typing test. I got 64wpm on that one, I think. Once I get Dvorak working, I'll report on my progress.
ThinkBuntu
May 15th, 2007, 03:13 AM
Well, I've switched the keys on my Macbook accordingly, and I'm typing, slowly, this message right now from it. I scored 13wpm, or less than 20% of my former output. I'll be starting a little Mac, Linux, Web Design, and Ruby blog in the coming days, and my first article will be a how-to of this for Macbooks, complete with photos.
* Looks back up at screen *
orengolan
May 15th, 2007, 03:26 AM
If u use Linux for programming, what is your editor?
I am tring Cream (gvim) with the Project plug-in for Ruby development.
mssever
May 15th, 2007, 04:07 AM
If u use Linux for programming, what is your editor?
I am tring Cream (gvim) with the Project plug-in for Ruby development.
This really is off-topic. However, I use a combination of Scribes and vim, not necessarily in that order.
yatt
May 15th, 2007, 04:10 AM
It does sound tempting... I'm not a touch typist, more a improved 2-finger hunt-and-pecker, but after doing a lot of typing recently I had to relax both of my wrists on my lap while reading the magazine comic. It's scary to think I might already be suffering from RSI for a long time.
Are external Dvorak keyboards easy to find outside the US? Can anyone share their experience with learning Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard?
I just popped the keys out of mine and rearranged them.
nanotube
May 15th, 2007, 04:28 AM
i've been using dvorak for a few years now. took me about two weeks to reach "reasonable" typing speed. what i did was devote about an hour each day to learning dvorak touch-typing (while sticking with qwerty for doing real stuff). after that two-week learning period, my dvorak typing was reasonable enough to switch to it full-time. once i did, my speed progress was even faster.
i did not do any key swiching, or buying new keyboards. the whole point is to touch-type, so not having any keys to look at just increases the speed with which you learn the layout.
so, here are my recommendations for switching to dvorak:
1. don't switch to it as default layout until you have a "reasonable" speed with it through training. depending on what your prior wpm was, "reasonable" may vary, so it's up to you to decide when that point is reached. i'd say once you hit about 25-30wpm, you're ready to move to dvorak as default without taking too big of a productivity hit
2. take a consistent time every day to train dvorak with a typing-tutor program. (there are a few for linux, choose whichever one you like best. or you go lo-tech with abcd (http://gigliwood.com/abcd/).) i was taking a train every day to school at the time, so the train ride was my dvorak training time.
3. once you switch to dvorak as the default layout, stick with it. it may take another couple of weeks to a month to reach your qwerty speed (if it was high to start with. mine was 80wpm). if you are a hunt-n-pecker on qwerty now, then you really don't have anything to lose, and will surpass your prior speed in no time. :)
4. do NOT, under any circumstances, rearrange your keycaps, buy stickers, or buy a new keyboard. having to memorize the layout speeds your progress, so you'd be doing yourself a disservice (and a potentially expensive one, at that).
my speed now is about 100 wpm, but the main benefit is that my wrists feel much better even after prolonged keyboard activity.
an extra benefit:
when someone wants to use my computer, they have the "wtf" moment which just doesn't get old. :)
also note that if you do have to use someone else's computer for a long-ish period (i.e, more than just type a couple of words/sentences), it's very easy to switch the layout to dvorak. every major OS supports the dvorak layout natively now, so it's not a big problem. if it is just a couple of words, then it's just not worth it, and you might as well hunt and peck those few words, though :)
good luck to every potential switcher! :) long live dvorak!
edit: attached is a screenshot with my typing speed results from http://labs.jphantom.com/wpm/. you, too, can get 100+ wpm - just switch to dvorak :)
Pasto
May 15th, 2007, 04:34 AM
Been using it for more than 2 years already. Is unbelievable how AWFUL qwerty is. I use a qwerty keyboard with dvorak layout though, never look at the keys. Good thing: nobody can use my machine :)
If you are doubtful about using dvorak: don't be. Is amazing how much it reduced the stress in my hands from typing.
nanotube
May 15th, 2007, 04:50 AM
If you are doubtful about using dvorak: don't. Is amazing how much it reduced the stress in my hands from typing.
you probably mean, "don't be doubtful", not "don't use dvorak". hehe. :)
Pasto
May 15th, 2007, 06:35 AM
better now? :D thanks for the heads up
helloyo
May 15th, 2007, 09:45 AM
i've been using dvorak exclusively for about 4 weeks now and it has been going great, i do still highly recommend it, my fingers aren't all over the place anymore. one problem i have is that i make quite a few mistakes. i'm typing at 60wpm, but i use the backspace key a lot more then i'd like... oh well, must keep at it. i'm probably not making more mistakes then i was in qwerty anyway...
ep2011
May 15th, 2007, 11:45 PM
I was thinking of switching, until I did the WPM test posted here a few times (http://labs.jphantom.com/wpm/).
I type at 117.69 Words per minute (attached)
If I type this fast already with Qwerty, whats the point?
helloyo
May 16th, 2007, 01:09 AM
I was thinking of switching, until I did the WPM test posted here a few times (http://labs.jphantom.com/wpm/).
I type at 117.69 Words per minute (attached)
If I type this fast already with Qwerty, whats the point?
wow! that's very impressive!
i wouldn't see it as a reason not to change, the amount of force your fingers are creating in so many awkward directions is going to add up pretty quickly with that sort of speed...
ep2011
May 16th, 2007, 02:31 AM
wow! that's very impressive!
i wouldn't see it as a reason not to change, the amount of force your fingers are creating in so many awkward directions is going to add up pretty quickly with that sort of speed...
Yeah, your probably right, They haven't hurt yet, though... I can just see one day them hurting really bad after all of the endless Qwerty typing. I may look into switching, but still, it would take me awile to get back up to my speed, and I'm worried I'll loose speed on Qwerty (School, other computers, etc, I need speed still).
amar
May 16th, 2007, 03:33 PM
well that's me changed the default on my desktop, I hope that I learn to type my password faster! (it's a really awkward one)
horace
May 16th, 2007, 05:51 PM
well that's me changed the default on my desktop, I hope that I learn to type my password faster! (it's a really awkward one)
Passwords are a bit of a test if you follow the practice of having upper case, lower case, numbers and punctuation - makes for a steep learning curve when you are starting off, especially if you are determined not to look at the keyboard! I can usually type mine without getting it wrong now after three weeks.
daynah
May 24th, 2007, 01:21 PM
I was thinking of switching, until I did the WPM test posted here a few times (http://labs.jphantom.com/wpm/).
I type at 117.69 Words per minute (attached)
If I type this fast already with Qwerty, whats the point?
I am a qwerty speed typer also, but I type for my job. At work I noticed intense pain shoot through the right side of my right hand... That's a darn good reason to switch.
atomic_turtle
May 24th, 2007, 10:55 PM
Hi,
does anybody know if/how a DVORAK layout plays out on a split keyboard? I just bought a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000, that's split and curved.
I'm in the process of making a new xmodmap for it, I do think that some keys in the QWERTY layout are awkward - some ciphers I use very often are much too close to "dangerous" keys that can delete text, close Windows or do other things I don't even begin to understand. Funny, I always seem to stumble over some arcane key combination that no one seems to know...
But - if I install DVORAK as another ready-made layout, would my homemade xmodmap still interfere with that and somehow mess things up?
Regards,
atomic_turtle
nanotube
May 30th, 2007, 05:04 AM
Hi,
does anybody know if/how a DVORAK layout plays out on a split keyboard? I just bought a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000, that's split and curved.
I'm in the process of making a new xmodmap for it, I do think that some keys in the QWERTY layout are awkward - some ciphers I use very often are much too close to "dangerous" keys that can delete text, close Windows or do other things I don't even begin to understand. Funny, I always seem to stumble over some arcane key combination that no one seems to know...
But - if I install DVORAK as another ready-made layout, would my homemade xmodmap still interfere with that and somehow mess things up?
Regards,
atomic_turtle
well, dvorak would map to a split kb exactly the same as it would to a straight kb. the curvature of the kb wouldn't affect the correspondence between qwerty and dvorak, really. don't know how it would play with your custom xmodmap, though...
BackwardsDown
May 30th, 2007, 01:11 PM
As being pretty much a geek I think it would be cool to learn something new and see where it goes. But I wonder if dvorak is really for me because I program a lot and use my terminal heavily. On querty I can find stuff like \/(){};´¨`$^* pretty fast. But the regular user doesn´t use them often, so I wonder if those keys are put on akward places...
Are there any programmers/terminal users or just dvorak users that can shed some light on this? I would find it very annoying to switch from dvorak to querty every time I feel like programming.
Jenda
May 30th, 2007, 02:02 PM
well, dvorak would map to a split kb exactly the same as it would to a straight kb. the curvature of the kb wouldn't affect the correspondence between qwerty and dvorak, really. don't know how it would play with your custom xmodmap, though...
I use a completely customized 4-layer dvorak keyboard with xmodmap, and encounter very few issues.
Take your /usr/share/xmodmap/xmodmap.dvorak file, copy it, and fiddle with it to your liking. The actual hardware you use has little to do with the results - it just sends in keycodes like any other.
As being pretty much a geek I think it would be cool to learn something new and see where it goes. But I wonder if dvorak is really for me because I program a lot and use my terminal heavily. On querty I can find stuff like \/(){};´¨`$^* pretty fast. But the regular user doesn´t use them often, so I wonder if those keys are put on akward places...
Are there any programmers/terminal users or just dvorak users that can shed some light on this? I would find it very annoying to switch from dvorak to querty every time I feel like programming.
Even as a geek, I don't think you use more ;s than letters, honestly :) I'm quite happy with the position of these marks myself - in fact, the comma, period, apostrophe and <>s are positioned even better, in my opinion (top row instead of bottom - it is considered the second best row). The hyphen is on the home row, which is great.
If you have any trouble reaching any of them, you can always use xmodmap to freely modify your layout :)
nanotube
May 30th, 2007, 03:02 PM
As being pretty much a geek I think it would be cool to learn something new and see where it goes. But I wonder if dvorak is really for me because I program a lot and use my terminal heavily. On querty I can find stuff like \/(){};´¨`$^* pretty fast. But the regular user doesn´t use them often, so I wonder if those keys are put on akward places...
Are there any programmers/terminal users or just dvorak users that can shed some light on this? I would find it very annoying to switch from dvorak to querty every time I feel like programming.
i'd suggest looking up the actual layout of the dvorak kb, and see what you think about where these things are located. (one easy tip: all the stuff above the number keys stays in the same place :)). as jenda said, the rest are rather conveniently located.
tszanon
May 30th, 2007, 05:38 PM
Oh, I've heard about this idea before. However, doesn't it cater only for the English language? I'm quite sure that different languages use different type of words, so would the Dvorak layout improve the typing speed of a person using Mandarin or some Chinese dialect or some other language?
Since dvorak aims at ergonomics, surely there must be a specific dvorak layout for each language. I just found out a custom dvorak layout for Portuguese-BR and Portuguese-PT (http://tecladobrasileiro.com.br), but I still don't know if it's already a standard or just a layout built on some studies.
For example, the letter A, in this custom layout, is at the home row, but at the left middle finger. So, instead of A O E U I, it's I E A O U.
me1on
May 30th, 2007, 06:43 PM
My dvorak typing speed is now 40wpm, and I'm making fewer mistakes. I'd probably be a bit faster if I wasn't still using the dvorak layout on a qwerty keyboard, but I'm getting the hang of it. Hopefully I'll catch up to my old qwerty typing speed in a few weeks. :)
amar
May 30th, 2007, 07:05 PM
I am feeling better about my typing now. I think I have regained confidence in my ability to type my password. I am still forgetting that I am to type in Dvorak and come out with a line of jrmln.ay abe gyy.p hgxx.pcod! My friends on messenger have all gotten used to it now
I find that in order to type fast i need to stop thinking about typing, as soon as I start to think my speed drops dramatically
BackwardsDown
May 30th, 2007, 07:31 PM
You guys got me, I have joined the migration (at least I am trying to). I am learning it now and I think I am picking it up pretty fast. Altough this message is still delivered by qwerty. When I can type every key of dvorak I will let you know!
I find that in order to type fast i need to stop thinking about typing, as soon as I start to think my speed drops dramatically
Indeed, its very odd. I have trouble learning the "N" key. I am constantly reminding myself where it is but I should not do that.
update:
Yay, I did the first 2 (5 in total) lessons, I can type 10 letters now.
nanotube
May 31st, 2007, 05:39 AM
howdy all
i was feeling all encouraged and stuff, so i created a very handy step-by-step guide to switching to dvorak (http://pykeylogger.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/DvorakHowTo).
please look it over, see if you like it, see if anything is missing - any comments/thoughts would be appreciated. :)
BackwardsDown
May 31st, 2007, 09:35 AM
Great guide:p, but I just have to be picky:o
of about 50 minutes each day,
nanotube
May 31st, 2007, 06:19 PM
Great guide:p, but I just have to be picky:o
hehe no, it actually is 50 minutes each way - for a total of 100 minutes each day. :) yes, i know, it's hard to believe that i spent that much time on a train several days a week. :)
BackwardsDown
May 31st, 2007, 06:39 PM
Yeah, I was wondering if you really did meant way or day. As not being a native english speaker day seemed to fit better. Also because you said that one session should not last longer than 50 minutes.
nanotube
May 31st, 2007, 08:45 PM
Yeah, I was wondering if you really did meant way or day. As not being a native english speaker day seemed to fit better. Also because you said that one session should not last longer than 50 minutes.
heh no problem. from where i stand, your english looks pretty good. :)
that turns out to be two sessions of about 45-50 minutes - once when i'm going into the city, and then again later, another 45-50 minutes, when i'm coming back. is it making sense now? ;)
gnomeuser
May 31st, 2007, 08:48 PM
Okay got Danish stickers to modify my keyboard (since I can't move the keys - blame Logitech for poor design).. now I discover that there isn't an easy keymap for da_DK dvorak.. man they make the little man do all the work.
happy-and-lost
May 31st, 2007, 09:12 PM
According to http://labs.jphantom.com/wpm/, after 6 months of mostly using Dvorak...
37.78 wpm Qwerty (3 mistakes)
44.95 wpm Dvorak (2 mistakes)
Man. I'm slow. Well, it's more the reading I'm slow at than the typing.
BackwardsDown
May 31st, 2007, 09:44 PM
Jaj, I am typing this in dvorak, but I am very very slow, I only started yesterday! The punctuations are especcially hard to learn, altough they defenitly are on a better spot than qwerty. Now I will be happy if I can get my wpm above 2 hahaha:p.
Damn this took pretty long:o
nanotube
May 31st, 2007, 10:15 PM
Jaj, I am typing this in dvorak, but I am very very slow, I only started yesterday! The punctuations are especcially hard to learn, altough they defenitly are on a better spot than qwerty. Now I will be happy if I can get my wpm above 2 hahaha:p.
Damn this took pretty long:o
hey, i thought you actually read my dvorak howto? didn't you notice the whole bit about not switching to dvorak until you learn the layout through some practice? :)
but hey, whatever works for you. :)
edit: heh heh, check out my updated sig. :)
nanotube
May 31st, 2007, 10:16 PM
Okay got Danish stickers to modify my keyboard (since I can't move the keys - blame Logitech for poor design).. now I discover that there isn't an easy keymap for da_DK dvorak.. man they make the little man do all the work.
see http://pykeylogger.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/DvorakHowTo
stickers, keycap movements, etc., are rather counterproductive to the whole effort. it's supposed to be /touch/ typing, not /look/ typing, after all. :)
nanotube
June 6th, 2007, 06:24 AM
I updated my dvorak guide (http://pykeylogger.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/DvorakHowTo) with some spiffy pics, statistics, etc. check it out! :) any comments/suggestions for improvement would be appreciated.
tiberius_k
June 12th, 2007, 10:28 PM
Let's talk about carrying your keyboard with you. The TypeMatrix (http://www.typematrix.com/) seems ideal. It takes up so little space and on the subject of ergonomics I would say it looks like the best thing since the Dvorak simplified keyboard!! OH Yeah, that reminds me: they are all switchable sans software to Dvorak, and they're available in unlabelled versions. With most boxes having front USB ports now, it doesn't seem so far-fetched that you could walk up to a coworker's desk, plug in your KB, execute a few commands and pull the plug and walk away in one motion, leaving the onlookers with that "who was that masked man?" look. They might even think the typematrix is some sort of key, unlocking the magic inside their PC! When I get extra money, I'm going to get one.
They've been saying for some months that they have a foldable (http://www.typematrix.com/schools2/benefits_any_where.php) version coming out soon. I might have to rob the kids' milk money for that.
By the way I have been typing Dvorak for a little over a month and am pretty close to my pathetic predvorak speed of ~60wpm. I haven't typed QWERTY since I switched; if I have to use QWERTY, I curl up all my fingers except the index on each hand (couldn't figure out how to spell indexes/indeces ) and peck away. So afraid am I of screwing up my new Dvorak wiring, that type even a letter of qwerty, I will not.
When I go home today, I'm going to pull all the keys(well, just the non-Dvorak ones) off of my 4-year-old daughter's lighted Zippy (http://www.aboutonehandtyping.com/childsbacklite.html) Keyboard and make it Dvorak. YEAH BABY!! The world starts changing today, for the children are the future!! Here's a video (http://video.google.com/url?docid=-7803518488448700567&esrc=sr2&ev=v&q=macbook+dvorak&vidurl=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dk7RVR5HSb2k&usg=AL29H23C_gaLfN0fi4Zqyiyd1r6k-OmF8Q) of someone rearranging scissor-pedestal keys.
Shay Stephens
June 12th, 2007, 11:31 PM
I switched my desktop keyboard to dvorak, but have recently started using my laptop regularly. At first I was a little lost, but now I am using both keyboards with barely a pause. It is pretty cool, like being bilingual or something. Keyboard super powers hehehe.
tiberius_k
June 13th, 2007, 06:51 PM
I lost a little sleep last night but I switched keys on my daughter's laptop-style kb to dvorak. I was thinking of filing the bumps off of the F and J keys. Any ideas for adding bumps to the U and H? Maybe they make little clear adhesive dots...
I showed my wife the modification this morning and she says I'm going to confuse the poor child. I guess that's true to an extent, but even if the world doesn't change to Dvorak, I don't think she'll have the same kind of stress that comes from, say, being left-handed. Heck, maybe she'll work construction. Still, the surest and easiest way to change the world is to change what we teach our children. Our children can grow up in a world where anyone who uses a computer knows how to toggle between layouts in an instant. And maybe one day I can have a conversation that goes like this...
-----------------------------
Child: Grampa, what's wrong with this keyboard? It's all mixed up
Me: There's nothing wrong with it, it's just old like me. That's the way people used to type, and it's how I was taught to type when I first learned.
Child: But look at where the "E" and the "T" are! And all the other letters too! And look at the semicolon!!! Couldn't they see how frekus that was? People must have been very silly back then, huh Grampa?!
Me: People still are silly, Sweet Pea. But we at least switched the way we type. Most people my age learned to type like that, but then some people switched, and then some more, and we started to teach our kids the English Standard Keyboard. You know, it used to be called the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard, after the man who invented it. He wanted to make things better for people who type, and he had a lot of trouble convincing people-
Child: Grandpa, that's really snicken, but I've got to go to school now.
Me: Well, you'd better get going. It's a long walk uphill through 3 feet of snow.
Child: See you later Grampa. Dvorak like the composer?.... OK, maybe I'll Snokker it when I get to school. Bye!
----------------------------
I don't think Dr. Dvorak would mind his name relegated to history as long as he came out the winner.
Here's another great reason to switch that the contributers on this forum made me realize: The world has never had as many, and will never again have so few, people typing in english. The sooner we change, the easier it will be for millions of people. I submit to you that even if your circumstances make you indifferent to leaving qwerty behind, switching today can help shape the future and make the world a better place. And that concludes the mushy portion of this post.
Nanotube: I submit to you one more reason not to switch to DSK: It makes it harder to type the word qwerty, which I will henceforth refer to as: ',.pyf
Thank you all for having this discussion.
Kirk
-probably way more exited about dvorak than I ought to be.-
nanotube
June 13th, 2007, 09:16 PM
Nanotube: I submit to you one more reason not to switch to DSK: It makes it harder to type the word qwerty, which I will henceforth refer to as: ',.pyf
hehe, well, that's an interesting point, but i can actually type 'qwerty' very fast using dvorak :)
-probably way more exited about dvorak than I ought to be.-
that's just not possible. dvorak deserves a lot of excitement, imho. :)
Soupbean
June 17th, 2007, 04:28 AM
I was thinking of filing the bumps off of the F and J keys. Any ideas for adding bumps to the U and H? Maybe they make little clear adhesive dots...
Hey Tiberius,
i didn't put bumps on the U and H keys, but i did put a slight indent on them just so i know where to put my hands. I did this using my dremel tool on very low speed with the drill bit attachment, but i'm sure there are other ways as the plastic is quite soft. I've posted some pictures so you can see the final results
http://philtchan.110mb.com/images/Case%20Mods/mini-034.JPG
http://philtchan.110mb.com/images/Case%20Mods/mini-035.JPG
hope this helps,
cheers.
sbyrnes321
June 23rd, 2007, 05:36 PM
For those who find they need to switch back and forth regularly between dvorak and qwerty in Windows (say, because other people sometimes use your computer), you'll go crazy because the switching mechanism is annoyingly application-specific, as discussed at
http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/30675.html.
The solution is to download the program "DvAssist", available at
http://www.clabs.org/blogki/index.cgi?page=/ComputersAndTechnology/DvAssist.
Nichotin
July 20th, 2007, 07:23 AM
I am the author of http://dvorak.doomtech.net , and I think that your focus on not rearranging the keys is great. However, maybe you should consider merging some of my work with yours? You probably write English better than me, and your guide is also featured as a link on Wikipedia, so it would be great to have my concept of looking at a picture of the layout on the top of the screen added somehow.
amar
July 20th, 2007, 09:17 AM
Well I think that I am 'over the hill' in terms of Dvorak migration. Currently I am more comfortable using Dvorak than QWERTY so I am using it all the time now. My maximum typing speed isn't quite as fast as QWERTY yet but it in not far behind and now I am touch typing I can look at what it is I am typing, not the keyboard :)
The punctuation keys still throw me occasionally but I am getting there
I do like the added security, all bar 1 of my friends refuse to touch my laptop till I disable it for them (the other friend is in America just now and also likes no one touching her Kubuntu + Dvorak laptop)
nick.inspiron6400
July 20th, 2007, 11:33 AM
I would use that layout, but my Dell laptop has a qwerty keyboard :(
puppy
July 20th, 2007, 12:56 PM
When (if!) that "Optimus Maximus" keyboard is released (I'm still not convinced that it isn't an elaborate scam... ) switching between the two formats would take moments. Mind you, they're still quoting several hundred dollars a unit :mad: [EDIT] Over $1500 dollars a unit!!!!! LOL!
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/
katabatic
July 22nd, 2007, 08:20 AM
I've been using Dvorak for like 5 years or more.
I found out about it in a middle school computer class when the teacher mentioned it briefly. Interested, I started practicing it, but the damn computers in the class were locked down, preventing me from changing the keymap. Later, I found out that if I unplug the ethernet connector, the computer (Windows 2k) would login locally without logging into the network and without the restrictions. So, I changed the keymap and practiced Dvorak in that typing class :-]
nanotube
July 24th, 2007, 10:00 PM
I am the author of http://dvorak.doomtech.net , and I think that your focus on not rearranging the keys is great. However, maybe you should consider merging some of my work with yours? You probably write English better than me, and your guide is also featured as a link on Wikipedia, so it would be great to have my concept of looking at a picture of the layout on the top of the screen added somehow.
hi nichotin, i sent you a private message on these forums, please log in and take a look at it when you get a chance. thanks for your feedback :)
Taum
July 30th, 2007, 07:36 PM
Gah! I tried to pluck the keys off of my keyboard and rearrange them in a Dvorak style today just to find out that the "F" and "J" keys and their keyholes are skewed by 90 degrees, making a Dvorak conversion impossible! Damn! I didn't want to spend money on a new keyboard, but I guess I'll have to add that want to my ever growing list of wants.
theonlyalterego
July 30th, 2007, 07:58 PM
I started using Dvorak about 5 YEARS ago when I was in college, I was woefully slow but after writing about 2 papers and a few CS projects I quickly fell in love. Some common arguments:
1) can you prove it's faster? Pretty much. Check out the link at the bottom comparing typing distances. After using dvorak for 1 year I compared some old typing tutor scores to those using qwerty, and they were much faster. Alas, they are lost in the sands of time, but like I said 5 years and I still use it the motivating factor was speed. If you read the wiki you'll find that the US Army did some studies showing that it was in fact faster, BUT they didn't switch because re-training their employees to learn a new layout wouldn't overcome the gain in speed... I guess governmental learning curves aren't so efficient ;) One could argue depending on how much time you want to invest, and how long you'll be typing for will equate to how much you'll gain... 4 weeks learning, 5 years in use... I wonder how many hours of my life I've saved by typing faster :)
2) Dvorak is supported by almost everything. I've done installs using Ubuntu, RedHat, Windows 2000, Windows XP, and usually withing the first 10 steps you have the option to switch the layout from QWERTY to Dvorak, set it as the default, and never turn back.
3) Switching layout. Every major OS offers multiple keyboard layout, Dvorak has been included on every OS I've ever worked with. Switching between them on Home, School, Laptop and work is easy just CTL-SHIFT-1 or CTL-SHIFT-2 (depending on your layout, and OS) and you can easily switch. My laptop is for work, and as a software developer I frequently have people poking over my shoulder, when they need to use it, I just switch layouts and they can use qwerty, when they're done, I switch back. EASY.
4) memory loss: bye bye QWERTY. Expect to become A LOT slower using QWERTY.. I can remeber the last time I had to use QWERTY to type more than a username and password, because soon after I can always switch the layout. Not really a problem.
That's my 2¢
Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard
For those not yet convinced, compare typing long code samples, or essays, website, whatever you may have that's copy&paste-able here:
http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/
when i first started I re-arranged my home desktop keyboard to fit the dvorak style, since then I've had it memorized so I leave it qwerty... I suppose you could always buy a new keyboard layout, or re-spray your own... but I never bothered... you shouldn't be looking @ the keys anyway ;-)
Taum
July 30th, 2007, 08:05 PM
I'm still a hunt-n-peck person and because QWERTY is so illogical and counter-intuitive, I feel that I can learn better on a Dvorak layout. I think that kids should be taught to use Dvorak, too.
nanotube
July 30th, 2007, 09:15 PM
I'm still a hunt-n-peck person and because QWERTY is so illogical and counter-intuitive, I feel that I can learn better on a Dvorak layout. I think that kids should be taught to use Dvorak, too.
read the dvorak switching guide (link in my sig) - you don't need to switch keycaps to learn dvorak - in fact you'd be better off if you don't.
totally agree re: kids. no reason to burden them with a crappy layout for life - get them before they start running into "switching costs"
same thing goes for hunt-n-peckers - no switching costs, cuz they are slow on qwerty anyway.
have fun switching ;)
handy
July 31st, 2007, 03:45 AM
I used a typing tutor to teach me Dvorak on the Amiga back in the mid 80's, I really liked it. When I started servicing other peoples computers it became a problem & I had to just go with the status quo. Now I have retired from servicing other peoples computers I think I just couldn't be bothered...
From memory the strongest advocates for Dvorak were based in Canada.
Billy_McBong
July 31st, 2007, 07:19 AM
I just switched to Dvorak, gonna take me a while to get used to this :)
Depressed Man
July 31st, 2007, 04:24 PM
read the dvorak switching guide (link in my sig) - you don't need to switch keycaps to learn dvorak - in fact you'd be better off if you don't.
totally agree re: kids. no reason to burden them with a crappy layout for life - get them before they start running into "switching costs"
same thing goes for hunt-n-peckers - no switching costs, cuz they are slow on qwerty anyway.
have fun switching ;)
Haha that reminds me. My sister and I are freaks when it comes to keyboard typing. She and I use QWERTY but we don't follow the guidelines for using QWERTY (you know fingers in these positions and they strike these keys). Yet our speed is faster then most people we know.
Though I think the reason why may be because she and I both grew up on videogames. So it required fast and flexible fingers.
stmiller
July 31st, 2007, 05:25 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Dvorak.jpg/381px-Dvorak.jpg
horace
July 31st, 2007, 09:03 PM
- you don't need to switch keycaps to learn dvorak - in fact you'd be better off if you don't.
This is probably true if you have the determination to switch and can put up with the frequent typos when starting out - but I must admit, I began by swapping the keys on an old keyboard because I couldn't manage my logins, and I have only gone back to a qwerty keyboard after three months. I know it is not good practice to look at the keyboard, but I might have given up the struggle if I could not have managed to log in.
It has also taken me this long to match my qwerty typing speed, though I must admit, I do relatively little typing these days.
I am pleased I have made the switch though - I've long wanted to be able to type (accurately) while gazing out of the window, and now I can! I could do it before, but the result was gibberish.
lisati
July 31st, 2007, 09:12 PM
It does sound tempting... I'm not a touch typist, more a improved 2-finger hunt-and-pecker, but after doing a lot of typing recently I had to relax both of my wrists on my lap while reading the magazine comic. It's scary to think I might already be suffering from RSI for a long time.
Are external Dvorak keyboards easy to find outside the US? Can anyone share their experience with learning Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard?
A quick search at the **** Smith website (both NZ & AU) failed to achieve any results....sorry about that, chief!
amar
July 31st, 2007, 09:32 PM
2) Dvorak is supported by almost everything. I've done installs using Ubuntu, RedHat, Windows 2000, Windows XP, and usually withing the first 10 steps you have the option to switch the layout from QWERTY to Dvorak, set it as the default, and never turn back.
Unfortunately windows only has Dvorak US and not a GB version which can be a pain. Fortunately Ubuntu doesn't have that problem :)
My laptop is for work, and as a software developer I frequently have people poking over my shoulder, when they need to use it, I just switch layouts and they can use qwerty, when they're done, I switch back. EASY.
I think I get a bit too much pleasure out of watching other peoples confused looks until I switch layouts for them
This is probably true if you have the determination to switch and can put up with the frequent typos when starting out - but I must admit, I began by swapping the keys on an old keyboard because I couldn't manage my logins, and I have only gone back to a qwerty keyboard after three months. I know it is not good practice to look at the keyboard, but I might have given up the struggle if I could not have managed to log in.
That's why I didn't switch over immediately, first I set up the easy switching but kept QWERTY the default. Every day I would type something in Dvorak. Once I was confident that I knew where all the letters were and I could type my username and passwords, I made the actual switch (About a month and a half after I started) After I switched the default to Dvorak, my typing speed took of.
I am pleased I have made the switch though - I've long wanted to be able to type (accurately) while gazing out of the window, and now I can! I could do it before, but the result was gibberish.
Its a great feeling. I can't type in QWERTY without looking at the keys, now I can type in the dark or look at others whilst typing
Taum
July 31st, 2007, 09:49 PM
Thanks for the guide for the Dvorak switch! My current WPM is 43, which is sad. I'm hoping to up that to at least 60 with Dvorak.
Cable
August 1st, 2007, 08:23 AM
I've decided to give Dvorak a try. So I'm going to mess with dvorak7min until I feel comfortable enough to make it my default layout. I've only learned the home row so far, but it definitely feels more comfortable already!
Espreon
August 1st, 2007, 02:30 PM
I can't since I use a lappy for both school and home (not sure if you can replace a keyboard on a lappy). Also the school one is the schools so it is out of the question. Besides corporations are probably looking for people who can type efficiently in QWERTY. But if it is easier than QWERTY as everyone is saying I would like to give it a try.
Same as corporations are looking for Micro$haft certified peeps.
nanotube
August 1st, 2007, 03:21 PM
I can't since I use a lappy for both school and home (not sure if you can replace a keyboard on a lappy). Also the school one is the schools so it is out of the question. Besides corporations are probably looking for people who can type efficiently in QWERTY. But if it is easier than QWERTY as everyone is saying I would like to give it a try.
Same as corporations are looking for Micro$haft certified peeps.
corporations don't care what you type on, as long as you do what you need to do. (unless you are planning on being a professional teletype operator, or some other old and almost obsolete equipment operator - for which you'd be stuck with whatever keyboard layout they came with, which would of course be qwerty).
Cable
August 2nd, 2007, 10:01 PM
Well, I'm typing this post using Dvorak, so I'm definitely progressing. I'm still typing slow as molasses though. It does feel more natural and comfortable, I just need to get used to it. :-)
original_jamingrit
August 3rd, 2007, 03:19 AM
As it says in the zine, every computer has dvorak on it. It's not very hard to switch your keyboard layout, even on a work computer.
me1on
August 3rd, 2007, 03:59 AM
I'm proud to say that I've finally reached my old typing speed with the Dvorak layout without switching the Qwerty keys around! My advice to everybody starting out is:
1) Don't bother switching the keys around, you shouldn't be looking at the keys when you type anyways. You'll be a better typer if you learn without staring at the keyboard. If you need to, print out a cheat sheet (http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/layout.html) to remember where the keys are.
2) Instead of using one of those typing tutor programs, do something more productive while you're learning, like starting a blog or learning a programming language. This will be more fun, more productive, and give you more motivation to keep practicing, and (IMO) will improve you typing speed faster than using a typing tutor.
3) The first couple weeks are really frustrating; don't give up, it'll eventually pay off.
Thank you, topic creator, for convincing me to switch to Dvorak!
PsyWolf
August 11th, 2007, 05:16 PM
i switched last summer. I just built a laptop and I had to buy stickers to put on the keys since I couldn't move them around. I can type without looking but since I can type both qwerty and dvorak, if I look down and see a qwerty keyboard, I just start typing in that. Anyway the stickers I got have dvorak in black and qwerty in red. So hopefully it wont **** off my friends so much.
PsyWolf
August 11th, 2007, 08:01 PM
for everyone having problems with the login screen, I posted a very detailed and noob friendly how-to here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3172940#post3172940)
P.S. this is for gnome users only. I don't know how it works in KDE.
der_joachim
August 12th, 2007, 08:55 AM
for everyone having problems with the login screen, I posted a very detailed and noob friendly how-to here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3172940#post3172940)
P.S. this is for gnome users only. I don't know how it works in KDE.
Shuold work in KDE too.
Here's my xorg.conf:
Section "InputDevice"
Identifier "Generic Keyboard"
Driver "kbd"
Option "CoreKeyboard"
Option "XkbRules" "xorg"
Option "XkbModel" "pc104"
Option "XkbLayout" "us(intl),us(dvorak)"
Option "XkbOptions" "grp:alt_shift_toggle,compose:ralt,eurosign:5,altwi n:super_win"
EndSection
This enables my wife to keep using the standard US international layout and enables me to toggle dvorak in the login screen. The only problem with this is that KDM does not show which layout is the current one.
bailout
August 12th, 2007, 10:27 AM
This enables my wife to keep using the standard US international layout and enables me to toggle dvorak in the login screen. The only problem with this is that KDM does not show which layout is the current one.
you can change the keyboard layout in system settings/kcontrol. If you enable keyboard layout here then you will get an icon in the sys tray which enables you to swap the layout.
der_joachim
August 12th, 2007, 03:41 PM
you can change the keyboard layout in system settings/kcontrol. If you enable keyboard layout here then you will get an icon in the sys tray which enables you to swap the layout.
I'm talking KDM here, as in the login screen. AFAIK there is no system tray in KDM. ;)
bailout
August 12th, 2007, 05:32 PM
I'm talking KDM here, as in the login screen. AFAIK there is no system tray in KDM. ;)
I know, it just seems a complicated way of doing it and why do you want to select at the kdm screen instead of the desktop?
nanotube
August 12th, 2007, 11:08 PM
I know, it just seems a complicated way of doing it and why do you want to select at the kdm screen instead of the desktop?
probably because you want to type your password in dvorak? :)
der_joachim
August 13th, 2007, 06:00 PM
probably because you want to type your password in dvorak? :)
You said it! One of my PCs at work is occasionally used by my colleagues. It is easier for me to type a qwerty password than it is for them to type theirs in Dvorak. So it stays in qwerty. It bugs me though since my dvorak typing skills have surpassed my qwerty skills.
Rhubarb
August 17th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Thanks to this thread, I'm now fluent in dvorak, I can type as fast as I did a few months ago in qwerty. Now I just need a few more months to get faster at typing :)
pluviosity
August 17th, 2007, 05:10 PM
Woooooo Dvorak!! :guitar:
phenest
August 17th, 2007, 07:59 PM
Ok. I'm prepared to give this a go. I mean permanently. But ... where the hell do I get a DVORAK keyboard? I tried swapping the keys over. Almost successfully, if it wasn't for the way the keyboard is designed. The little clips are different sizes for some keys which means either you can't switch them or they hit each other.
Dell Inspiron 9400:
Can be done except the letters J and U hit each other.
Dell Precision M90:
Cannot be done as a few of the keys have different sized spring clips underneath.
This may apply to many Dell laptops.
So this leads me to a question. Where can I get a DVORAK keyboard for my Precision M90? I don't want an external one.
I don't want one for the 9400. That isn't actually my laptop, so it must stay QWERTY.
phenest
August 17th, 2007, 09:36 PM
Takes ages to type in Dvorak. Need tutor to learn touch-type.
Phew!
I used the keyboard from the 9400 and made the U look like a J and the J look like a U seeing as they look similar. I now have a Dvorak keyboard.
Phew, this is slow!
floke
August 17th, 2007, 10:25 PM
Great stuff! Getting there slowly but surely...
der_joachim
August 18th, 2007, 11:46 AM
Takes ages to type in Dvorak. Need tutor to learn touch-type.
Phew!
I used the keyboard from the 9400 and made the U look like a J and the J look like a U seeing as they look similar. I now have a Dvorak keyboard.
Phew, this is slow!
There are a few typing tutors in the repos. I recommend Ktouch.
phenest
August 18th, 2007, 12:46 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Dvorak.jpg/381px-Dvorak.jpg
I hate to be picky, but this is a picture of Antonín Leopold Dvořák (the composer), who is a distant relation of August Dvorak (the joint inventor of the keyboard layout).
phenest
August 18th, 2007, 12:47 PM
Oh, and I forgot to ask, when I'm in a terminal, I still get QWERTY. How do I change this?
phenest
August 18th, 2007, 01:51 PM
the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog
Still practicing.
der_joachim
August 18th, 2007, 03:41 PM
Oh, and I forgot to ask, when I'm in a terminal, I still get QWERTY. How do I change this?
Open the file /etc/default/console-setup in your favourite text editor, scroll to the keyboard section and fill in the following lines:
XKBMODEL="pc105"
XKBLAYOUT="us"
XKBVARIANT="dvorak"
XKBOPTIONS="" # insert favourite options here
phenest
August 18th, 2007, 03:53 PM
Thanks.
the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog
(15wpm)
nanotube
August 19th, 2007, 07:35 AM
Ok. I'm prepared to give this a go. I mean permanently. But ... where the hell do I get a DVORAK keyboard? I tried swapping the keys over. Almost successfully, if it wasn't for the way the keyboard is designed. The little clips are different sizes for some keys which means either you can't switch them or they hit each other.
Dell Inspiron 9400:
Can be done except the letters J and U hit each other.
Dell Precision M90:
Cannot be done as a few of the keys have different sized spring clips underneath.
This may apply to many Dell laptops.
So this leads me to a question. Where can I get a DVORAK keyboard for my Precision M90? I don't want an external one.
I don't want one for the 9400. That isn't actually my laptop, so it must stay QWERTY.
there's no need to switch caps or get a dvorak kb. :) check the link to the dvorak guide in my sig...
phenest
August 19th, 2007, 09:38 AM
There is every need. Why use a Dvorak layout and have a legacy QWERTY keyboard? I've been using QWERTY keyboards for over 25 years, so I need something to remind me I'm using Dvorak now. If I'm going to do this, then I may as well do it properly.
happy-and-lost
August 19th, 2007, 09:46 AM
OK, more than 6 monts in, I'm still making stupid mistakes. It's very confusing for one who doesn't touch-type to have similar-looknig letters such as M and W or K and X next to eachother :(
phenest
August 19th, 2007, 01:40 PM
You shouldn't be looking at them. Look at the screen and not the keyboard.
daveerickson
September 11th, 2007, 06:18 PM
I just started the transition yesterday. So far I am liking it. We will see how it goes...
nutter78
November 21st, 2007, 11:47 AM
Hi All - I know this is an old thread!
I've changed yesterday to dvorak, but I have this problem - if I ssh into another system(ubuntu) how do I change that system to accept dvorak [Solved - but another question]
hope someone can help
******** How do I make ubuntu(not x or gnome) use dvorak********
thx
daynah
November 21st, 2007, 02:02 PM
Hi All - I know this is an old thread!
I've changed yesterday to dvorak, but I have this problem - if I ssh into another system(ubuntu) how do I change that system to accept dvorak [Solved - but another question]
hope someone can help
******** How do I make ubuntu(not x or gnome) use dvorak********
thx
Can you please post where those answers were? I had a problem with the second question that I only fixed while I was happening to do a clean install (not the best way to do it) and I haven't come across the first question but I know when I do, I'll be ticked.
I'm fine in Dvorak... except I mess up M and W ALL the time. Especially late at night. I know if I just sat aside some time with Dvorak7min I'd have it fixed but I'm too lazy.
EDIT: by the way, I'd just like to say that I do data entry (so I get on a work QWERTY comp) and the pinky tendon in my right hand was killing me. Then I'd ge thome and want to surf or chat or do homework and I couldn't cause it was killing me. DVORAK is so easy on my hands that I might as well not be typing, so even though I still use QWERTY, it doesn't hurt (it also took a week of rest).
ushills
November 21st, 2007, 03:38 PM
I've been using Dvorak for just less than a week so far. My typing speed is fairly poor at 12-13 wpm, but I don't refer to anything other than memory anymore.
Funnily, I have the biggest problems with o, e and n, t; the other keys seem to come easily. Also with no practice over a weekend my brain appears to have accepted that it needs to understand the new layout:)
I could previously touch type with qwerty and that makes things harder I believe, next I need to convert my kids.
daynah
November 21st, 2007, 03:46 PM
Don't worry about your kids. They'll have to take technology classes with QWERTY. QWERTY is a valuable skill they need to know to PASS.
I never had a hard time with NT, but the vowels were hard at the beginning. I was like "Eh it's one of those darn keys over there..."
nanotube
November 21st, 2007, 04:34 PM
for daynah:
Hi All - I know this is an old thread!
I've changed yesterday to dvorak, but I have this problem - if I ssh into another system(ubuntu) how do I change that system to accept dvorak [Solved - but another question]
an ssh terminal session should be using your local keyboard layout by default. does for me. or are you talking about gui?
******** How do I make ubuntu(not x or gnome) use dvorak********
thx
look at "loadkeys" command, to set console-level keymap. (never used it myself, though, i just set dvorak at install-time back then...)
nanotube
November 21st, 2007, 04:38 PM
Don't worry about your kids. They'll have to take technology classes with QWERTY. QWERTY is a valuable skill they need to know to PASS.
there are few computers currently in existence that cannot easily switch from dvorak to qwerty. so i do not think one really /needs/ to know qwerty to "pass".
however, it is true that in a school environment one has to use a lot of /different/ computers, and switching to dvorak every time you approach a comp would be a major pain. so... teach them dvorak, but also teach them not to forget qwerty.
this way, they could use dvorak on their home comp, and on any comp they regularly use (which they'd enable the on-the-fly kbmap switching on), but they can still easily use qwerty on all those other occasions.
that's my non-expert opinion :)
ushills
November 21st, 2007, 05:31 PM
The oldest is just learning keyboard skills at home with Tuxtype, so I don't know to go for Dvorak or Qwerty first. Also, I think she's too young for touch typing.
red_Marvin
November 21st, 2007, 09:32 PM
I'm a full time dvorak-swe user since a couple of months, and I've finally came to the point that I type faster with dvorak than qwerty (also because my qwerty skills decreases), I do make a lot of spelling mistakes though, although I can't compare since I can't touch type at all with qwerty. I also sometimes mix up left/right hand, a/o o/e n/t n/s etc.
I also wish that my keyboard had better markings since I often misplace (shr) my hands.
SomeGuyDude
November 21st, 2007, 10:42 PM
I believe people might be faster with Dvorak than QWERTY, but only to a point. I can hit 100+ wpm on average, my best was around 120 (not when transcribing or dictating, granted). So unless I'm going to go up to 200wpm with Dvorak I don't really see the purpose.
Hell, I can barely THINK at 150wpm, let alone typing up there.
Lostincyberspace
November 21st, 2007, 10:52 PM
I believe people might be faster with Dvorak than QWERTY, but only to a point. I can hit 100+ wpm on average, my best was around 120 (not when transcribing or dictating, granted). So unless I'm going to go up to 200wpm with Dvorak I don't really see the purpose.
Hell, I can barely THINK at 150wpm, let alone typing up there.
Well one of the little known points to dvorak is that it can lessen the effect of carple tunnel because it is designed to make your fingers move less to make the words. so if you have aproblem of fingers cramping up then try using dvorak once you get the hang of it it should help a bit.
nutter78
November 22nd, 2007, 03:47 PM
Can you please post where those answers were? I had a problem with the second question that I only fixed while I was happening to do a clean install (not the best way to do it) and I haven't come across the first question but I know when I do, I'll be ticked.
HI daynah - it was only the 1st question that I'd solved, but i'm working on the 2nd - will post as soon as i have an answer!
- It seems to work on ssh by default
daynah
November 22nd, 2007, 04:21 PM
Well one of the little known points to dvorak is that it can lessen the effect of carple tunnel because it is designed to make your fingers move less to make the words. so if you have aproblem of fingers cramping up then try using dvorak once you get the hang of it it should help a bit.
I'd like to be a testimonial on that, thanks. I still type slower on DVORAK (90) than I do QWERTY(110. 120 when I'm late HA), but it doesn't hurt so it's totally worth it. I probably type slower on Dvorak because I look at the keys. :(
My Dvorak Progression
I stayed at "so slow that it's not worth measuring" for a while. I was adamant that I wasn't going to look at the keys so I kept pressing the button I thought it was, but it wasn't. I had the dumb chart in front of me, but when I tried to count over with the QWERTY keys there, I just got confused. I said F that and moved the keys (but I did learn the vowels).
I then learned Dvorak only looking when needed. I popped through 20- 30- 40 up to 50 and then stalled some and the boom there I was at 90, it sorta clicked.
And I know that I know at least some of Dvorak by rote because when I get on QWERTY, I'll sometimes type it wrong. It seems that I need to look at the keyboard, get my fingers adjusted to typing that way and then I'm fine. But if I "just go" I'll type whatever way I was typing last.
I had been thinking about switching, but I finally did when my pinky was throbing from typing so baddly that I started using my middle finger to press shift (your pinkie and ring are on the same tendon). Yeah. That week stunk.
nutter78
November 22nd, 2007, 05:48 PM
Can you please post where those answers were? I had a problem with the second question that I only fixed while I was happening to do a clean install (not the best way to do it)...........
Hi try this - it seemed to work for me!!!!
sudo dpkg-reconfigure console-setup
---- thx to tragicglee for that one! :) :) :)
ushills
November 27th, 2007, 05:46 PM
How have people progressed with Dvorak, I seem to be mentally challenged.
My brain to hand coordination seems to have reverted to that of a three year old. I just cannot get the easy keys correct, I keep mixing e,o and n,t; my hands do not seem to like these combinations and the tendons start to ache quite badly after a time.
Am I best to concentrate on learning the keys or concentrate on typing real words?
red_Marvin
November 27th, 2007, 09:25 PM
What I did was to draw the layout on a paper, and put it on top of the screen, and then just went from there, using it until it stuck.
Harpalus
November 27th, 2007, 09:39 PM
I'm wondering how many people's typing speeds ~actually~ increased, and how much of it was a placebo. Dvorak fans tend to put out a lot of marketing for their chosen keyboard layout.
The dangers of carpal tunnel and computer related injuries are greatly exaggerated, and not much of a threat. This was looked at (http://science.slashdot.org/science/07/10/15/1640244.shtml) a while ago. Harvard and the American Medical Association agree with these conclusions.
While I'm sure the Qwerty layout was designed quite randomly, I'm hesitant to believe that it was designed solely to slow down users. I'm also hesitant to believe some Dvorak marketing that claims the Dvorak layout was "expertly crafted to be the most efficient keyboard layout possible." Seems more like marketing to me.
I'm sure it's more efficient then Qwerty is - but until somebody can present me with some actual data on it's effectiveness, or some data to back up the claims of inferior Qwerty, superior Dvorak then IMHO it's just a pointless exercise. (Besides, I'm often required to type in more languages then just English - already have enough keyboard layouts to worry about. :D)
daynah
November 27th, 2007, 10:32 PM
Harpalus:
Regarding carpel tunnel: there's a lot af other pain you can get from typing other than carpel tunnel. I did NOT have carpel tunnel (that's why it was able to go away). I was just streching my fingers too far. In Dvorak, since you use the "strechy" keys less often, typing is less of a problem for me. What you cite is just looking at carpel tunnel, which you're right: is not as common as people make it out to be. (blame the media, like with RLS). I, too get annoyed when people who hurt while typing say "oh it's that carpel tunnel acting up" Carpel tunnel is serious. Simple pain, while an indicator of "quit while you're ahead" is still simple and still just pain.
Regarding typing speeds: The fastest typist was on a dvorak keyboard. (or at least according to the last time I read wiki, like a year or so ago). But let me be frank with you, I don't think that matters. That lady worked hard to type faster so that she could win a contest. You are never going to reach her speeds. Even that lady will not do that kind of speeds typing leisurely, probably even at work 'cause people just don't type that fast. Speed is important, yes but I think that you hands just don't want to go faster than that 90-110 range. After that, even if you CAN, you're then working at typing.
With typing speeds on dvorak, it's how much movement did you have to make while doing that. The more movement means more "dumb" errors. Dumb errors are not knowing the keyboard but just going so fast that you miss. If you move less. This happens less often.
Regarding statistics: http://www.siteuri.ro/dvorak/ Have fun
Regarding QWERTY: Read up young padewan. QWERTY is marvelous... if you're on an old school typewriter. They would lock up all the time if you pressed a certain combination of keys, and the arrangement of the letters lovered the frequency of hitting that combination of keys, thus making QWERTY the fastest... on an OLD TYPEWRITER. Dvorak would get you stuck in a minute and you'd have to take that puppy apart.
QWERTY was genius in it's time. Is its time still now is the question.
Harpalus
November 27th, 2007, 10:53 PM
Daynah:
But is the increased efficiency worth the time/energy required to learn it? I'm a heavy VI user. Years of "hjkl" movement and "wasd" gaming movement grow on me.
How well does the increase in efficiency correlate to increased speeds? Actual, measurable typing speed increases? The site you gave me seems to calculate theoretical efficiency based upon finger movements. Supposing they're accurate numbers, it's still only part of the picture. Is the increase in speed great enough to be worth the time it takes to learn it? Just because it takes the finger longer to travel, doesn't mean that it will be enough of a difference to warrant switching.
Or is this similar to the situation with most hybrid cars? Sure it saves gas money - but the increased cost of the car at the beginning means that you'll not be likely to make up the difference anytime soon.
I'm not saying that Dvorak isn't any more efficient -- just that I haven't seen a decent study demonstrating that Dvorak is actually better overall then Qwerty, when you take into account the time it takes to transition, not to mention the annoyance with other people using your laptop/desktop, having to use qwerty at work, etc. All I see is, essentially, marketing. There's one study, done with the US Navy, that some users point to - but then, there's another paper (http://www.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html) that points out inaccuracies and flaws in the Dvorak one.
nanotube
November 28th, 2007, 07:36 AM
well, if you are curious to see a "case study", you can check out my dvorak page (link in sig to dvorak switching guide) for my personal experiences.
in short: i find i'm typing about 20wpm faster, some pain in fingers/wrist went away, and i take others' inability to use my comp as a plus. :)
as to gaming and wasd - not a problem, since you can 1. remap key combos to ,aoe instead, or 2. switch to qwerty during gameplay.
as to vi: it's said that one gets used to it - or again, you could remap keys.
overall, whether the "investment" is worth it is up to you to decide. for me, the geek factor was also a plus, in addition to any "real" benefits. :)
nutter78
December 4th, 2007, 09:44 AM
All I can say is that perseverance will pay off :)
orengolan
December 9th, 2007, 08:03 AM
I just got the $200 computer from Everex.
it runs ubuntu but instead of Gnome it has e17 (enlightment).
I don't find the GUI for changing the keyboard layout (to dvorak).
how do I do it from the command line and is there a nice way to toggle between the layouts?
Lostincyberspace
December 9th, 2007, 08:04 AM
System>Preferences>Keyboard.
Hope that solves the problem.
orengolan
December 9th, 2007, 08:23 AM
i don't have 'system' menu as the one that exist in Gnome.
Lostincyberspace
December 9th, 2007, 08:33 AM
It would probably be in settings in kde. But I don't want to swich since I like the song I am listening to right now. Dont mean to rude though.
shingalated
December 10th, 2007, 06:18 PM
How do I change the keyboard layout the login screen uses? I changed the default to Dvorak on my login.
horace
December 11th, 2007, 06:54 PM
How do I change the keyboard layout the login screen uses? I changed the default to Dvorak on my login.
See message #70 in this thread for how I did it - but nobody ever commented on whether this was the best solution!
hth
bonzodog
May 2nd, 2008, 06:27 PM
I am giving dvorak a try at the moment, just discovered how to move the keys on the keyboard. Am really slow though....
nanotube
May 2nd, 2008, 06:42 PM
I am giving dvorak a try at the moment, just discovered how to move the keys on the keyboard. Am really slow though....
good luck :)
i'd suggest not switching the keys and just trying to memorize the layout (with the help of your favorite typing tutor)
http://smokyflavor.wikispaces.com/DvorakHowTo
amar
May 3rd, 2008, 09:36 AM
welocome to the club, and good luck
I agree, working from memory is the way to go, don't phisicaly move the keys or use stickers. My suggestion is - if you have to keep typing speed high for work, focuse on writing something everyday in dvorkak (perhaps in this thread)
as time goes on, after you have writen your post, you may take longer to put it back, to querty (ie you send a few emails) and eventualy you find dvorak is just as fast as querty
good luck
bonzodog
May 3rd, 2008, 12:06 PM
No, I wanted a permanent configuration on the keyboard of dvorak, so I actually moved the keys.
jdtiede
May 13th, 2008, 04:39 PM
I learned Dvorak about four years ago when my son lost the use of one hand for an unpredictable duration after a motorcycse accident. (There are two one-handed versions readily available.) Learning a new layout was too much of a challenge for him but I kept at the two-hand version, even though I had been using qwerty for 50 years and sometimes as fast as 100 wpm. The main reason I switched was for less reaching in the advent of arthritis.
I keep the layout selector flag in the taskbar on both desktop computers for my partner's convenience, but not on my laptop as he will dirke to the library rather than use that one, no matter which keyboard layout is in effect.
mkendall
May 13th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Haven't read the thread, but I've been using Dvorak for several years now. Not because it makes me a better typer, I'm not, but because when I search for a letter, the layout is more intuitive for finding it than qwerty's.
The main reason, however, is because it makes me feel "superior" to the qwerty using sheeple. I use Dvorak by choice; they use qwerty because that's what is availble and what they've always used. Much the same reason why I use Linux, Open Office, and Firefox instead of Windows, Office, and IE; I looked into it and made an informed decision.
Glucklich
May 13th, 2008, 07:41 PM
I tried typing in dvorak and it really makes it easy to find the keys. Joining all the vowels, just perfect. One hand deals with the vowels, the other practically takes care of all others in an organized way. Too bad I'm always using a laptop. It makes it difficult to use, and carrying an extra keyboard just means extra weight on my shoulders. Guess I'm stuck with qwerty.
amar
May 13th, 2008, 08:10 PM
I use dvorak on the laptop no problem, just confuses everyone else when they hit the F key and get a U! Just change the layout in the keyboard settings and if you must see the keys, use stickers (though not seeing the keys forces you to learn to touch type properly)
igfud
May 13th, 2008, 10:31 PM
b.,xc.
b..e mrp. lpajycj.vvv
Dr Small
May 13th, 2008, 10:33 PM
I have been a Dvorak user since about Nov 2007. It's a great expirence. I wonder how I missed this thread :D
Enixine
May 25th, 2008, 01:20 AM
I started using Dvorak on my non-Linux laptop two weeks ago. There was no key layout to guide me, so you can imagine it was laborious at first. At present I'm still much slower than I was in Qwerty, but I'm surprised how much I've improved after the first week.
The biggest problem is when I meet a standard keyboard again. I forget the layout of the Dvorak and my muscle memory goes kaput.
I'm still sticking with it though, largely out of principle. It makes no sense to stick with a system that was purposefully designed to be inefficient!
grossaffe
May 25th, 2008, 02:09 AM
I would consider learning one of the one-handed dvorak layouts. that would be awesome. anyone remember watching Boris typing in Goldeneye?
Dr Small
May 25th, 2008, 02:35 AM
I have never tried one of the single handed Dvorak layouts, as it would be different and I guess you would have to relearn everything again.
But I am now as fast, (or faster) in Dvorak than I was in Qwerty.. I still have common mistakes, yet I can correct myself very quickly and move on. It is no where near as bad as I was in the beginning!
Dr Small
orengolan
May 25th, 2008, 03:02 AM
progress update:
after a few months of dvoraking at home I started doing it
at work and It's almost natural.
I am not perfect yet but I love the fact that I don't need
to look at the keyboard.
cardinals_fan
May 25th, 2008, 04:04 AM
I use a custom layout. I swapped the following keys: e-d, i-k, u-j. It improves my efficiency greatly without making me relearn too much.
newagelink
May 25th, 2008, 04:05 AM
I've been using Dvorak exclusively since Spring 2007. :)
I learned through taping pieces of paper to my laptop's keyboard, relabeling the keys. The 'j' key is the only one still labeled: It seems to be either the key I use the least, else the key that my finger strikes most orthogonally.
EdThaSlayer
May 25th, 2008, 05:40 AM
I have been using Dvorak for around a year. Although I'm faster at DVORAK than QWERTY, I still know how to touchtype on QWERTY, even though it takes a couple of keys to change my brain chemistry to QWERTY. Right now I'm typing with DVORAK, and my wristis don't hurt at all(they did when I was using QWERTY). To sum it all up, I really like my keyboard layout now. :D
grossaffe
May 25th, 2008, 06:04 AM
i took the plunge, i'm using lefthanded dvorak right now
NovaAesa
May 25th, 2008, 07:03 AM
Does anyone know how much advantage/disadvantage Dvorak would have with coding? I'm doing a Bachelor of Software Engineering and hence have to do a heck of alot of coding (and lovin' it). So it Dvorak good for coding?
newagelink
May 25th, 2008, 01:05 PM
Yes and no. The idea behind it is that you move your fingers less for the most commonly used keys ... The +, =, -, /, [, ], {, }, \ keys I still have trouble with, simply because I don't use them enough to have the memorized: in standard dvorak, they're all in the top right corner for your right pinky-finger (similar to qwerty I suppose)... < and > are for your left ring finger.
I typically get frustrated when attempting to tabulate data in Excel and switch to qwerty, simply because then I know unambiguously where the keys are: they're clearly labeled.
NovaAesa
May 25th, 2008, 01:44 PM
Anyone know of any Linux apps that will help me out with learning to touch type with Dvorak? I did a search in Add/Remove programmes and didn't come up with much. If anyone knows of a Windows app that does the same thing that would be great as well (one of my machines is dedicated to Windows, for gaming reasons :S).
newagelink
May 25th, 2008, 02:08 PM
If you have a standard keyboard, just pop the keys out and rearrange them into your Dvorak layout. (Two of the keys will probably go in rotated 90 degrees, on the home row.) If you have a laptop, do what I did: tape pieces of paper over your keys to relabel them. The tape came off my keys surprisingly easily after the paper came off; maybe it's the texture of the key, maybe it's oil from my fingers.
der_joachim
May 25th, 2008, 04:27 PM
Anyone know of any Linux apps that will help me out with learning to touch type with Dvorak? I did a search in Add/Remove programmes and didn't come up with much. If anyone knows of a Windows app that does the same thing that would be great as well (one of my machines is dedicated to Windows, for gaming reasons :S).
Ktouch if you are a KDE user, dvorak7min if you prefer the console. Both programs are in the repositories.
NovaAesa
May 26th, 2008, 02:50 AM
Okay, I'm a GNOME user to its dvorak7min for me. It seems to be pretty good, and I am already up to 80 wpm on lesson 1 :).
I have another quesion though. I think this may be a big problem. How do I get left and right angle brackets? It says they should be under and to the left of the A key, but that's where half of my left shift key is :S Ayone else have this issue?
http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/332/screenshotoe0.png
mssever
May 26th, 2008, 05:27 AM
I have another quesion though. I think this may be a big problem. How do I get left and right angle brackets? It says they should be under and to the left of the A key, but that's where half of my left shift key is
I believe that dvorak7min is incorrect there. They should still be above the comma and period. I'm not running Gnome right now, so I can't test (and I haven't messed with Dvorak in a while).
grossaffe
May 26th, 2008, 05:38 AM
Anyone know of any Linux apps that will help me out with learning to touch type with Dvorak? I did a search in Add/Remove programmes and didn't come up with much. If anyone knows of a Windows app that does the same thing that would be great as well (one of my machines is dedicated to Windows, for gaming reasons :S).
how about an internet thing? this might help: http://www.powertyping.com/dvorak/typing.html
NovaAesa
May 26th, 2008, 10:21 AM
@mssever
Yes you are right. I can get angle brackets by pressing the W and E keys on my qwerty keyboard.
Unfortunately, I can't start learning Dvorak yet ;(
I have a huge Java coding assignment due, and I found the pace really really slow trying to code with Dvorak. So I'm back to qwerty and will give Dvorak another go when this assignment is done (it's the last one of this semester w00t!).
mintochris
May 26th, 2008, 10:40 AM
I switched last night, but typing is slow!
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