critical but fair (imho) review of the feisty fawn beta

[karellen]

the review can be found here
http://cpbotha.net/2007/04/10/a-critical-look-at-ubuntu-feisty-beta-on-an-hp-nc8430-laptop/

[FoolsGold]

Review is fine. I still have problems with suspend/hiberation when running Beryl, so I can empathize.

[karellen]

well I want to buy a laptop in the coming months so it's obvious why is so important for me how well feisty (or any other linux distro) gets along with laptop's specific features

[PartisanEntity]

It really is a shame that there is no GUI to change the screen resolution, I would expect this to be one of those basic things that should have been done a long time ago, just look at how many threads there are on the forum by newbies asking how to change the resolution.

[forrestcupp]

It really is a shame that there is no GUI to change the screen resolution, I would expect this to be one of those basic things that should have been done a long time ago, just look at how many threads there are on the forum by newbies asking how to change the resolution.

That's not entirely true. There's System->Preferences->Screen Resolution. It's a GUI to change the resolution. The only problem is when you want a resolution that isn't in that list. Then you have to edit xorg.conf. But that could be seen as a more advanced request.

[prizrak]

That was a pretty good review. Of course getting something with an ATI video card won't make for a pleasant experience.


well I want to buy a laptop in the coming months so it's obvious why is so important for me how well feisty (or any other linux distro) gets along with laptop's specific features
Laptops are hugely different. The reviewer mentions really bad battery life on his laptop. On mine the battery lasts 10 minutes less than it does on Windows (and this was tested on Herd 3 with Beryl). On the other hand my suspend doesn't work in any way shape or form. My old Toshiba had better battery life on Ubuntu (it didn't live long enough to put Feisty on it but Edgy was happy) than it did on XP and also had flawless support for everything including hibernation and suspend to RAM. Not to mention that external displays worked 100%.

[PartisanEntity]

That's not entirely true. There's System->Preferences->Screen Resolution. It's a GUI to change the resolution. The only problem is when you want a resolution that isn't in that list. Then you have to edit xorg.conf. But that could be seen as a more advanced request.

That is actually what I meant. The GUI doesn't go far enough in allowing the user to add a resolution, and this IMO is something very very basic that should have been done ages ago.

[aysiu]

Considering most people don't install Windows from scratch, I don't think dismissing Feisty because of having to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file is fair at all. It'd be nice to have a GUI config for that (doesn't SuSE have one?), but it's not essential in order for most users to use Ubuntu.

[karellen]

That was a pretty good review. Of course getting something with an ATI video card won't make for a pleasant experience.


Laptops are hugely different. The reviewer mentions really bad battery life on his laptop. On mine the battery lasts 10 minutes less than it does on Windows (and this was tested on Herd 3 with Beryl). On the other hand my suspend doesn't work in any way shape or form. My old Toshiba had better battery life on Ubuntu (it didn't live long enough to put Feisty on it but Edgy was happy) than it did on XP and also had flawless support for everything including hibernation and suspend to RAM. Not to mention that external displays worked 100%.

I know, I just wanted to say that I read as many reviews as possible about linux distros on laptops

[Brunellus]

Review is fine. I still have problems with suspend/hiberation when running Beryl, so I can empathize.
Beryl is BETA. If you have problems while running Beryl, cease running Beryl and see if your problems stop.

[mstlyevil]

Considering most people don't install Windows from scratch, I don't think dismissing Feisty because of having to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file is fair at all. It'd be nice to have a GUI config for that (doesn't SuSE have one?), but it's not essential in order for most users to use Ubuntu.

Let's just hope Dell can make a difference for laptop users.

If I am not mistaken there is a Launchpad entry for a GUI for xorg to be added to ubby at a later date.

[aysiu]

Let's just hope Dell can make a difference for laptop users.

If I am not mistaken there is a Launchpad entry for a GUI for xorg to be added to ubby at a later date.
Well, as an interesting anecdote, I have an old Dell laptop (Inspiron 500m) that I was having troubles with. I tried PCLinuxOS. I tried Dapper. I tried Edgy. The main problem was suspend, but there were other weird glitches.

I upgraded to Feisty a few weeks ago, and everything is working great. Wireless is great. Suspend works flawlessly. Sound is good. Screen resolution is good.

[Turgon]

A very good review imho. It points out some of the really big weaknesses in ubuntu, but also in linux in general. What I think is worst is the screen resolution thing. I had a smilar experience with my desktop in edgy, just that it could be fixed by adding lines in xorg.conf or reconfiguring it. Don't remember how I eventualy solved it, but it took far longer and was far more complicated than what the avrage Joe can ever accept (besides, this was never an issue before edgy).

I hope these issues can be solved in future versions of ubuntu. Its these kinds of problems that makes linux hard to use. Ubuntu just isn't reliable enough on different hardware.

[aysiu]

it took far longer and was far more complicated than what the avrage Joe can ever accept And average joes install and configure operating systems themselves since when...? If Windows were really that easy to install, configure, and maintain, our tech department at work would just be twiddling its thumbs, and I (who am not even in the tech department) wouldn't be asked at least once a day by a co-worker (an average jane or joe) how to do something in Windows.

[IYY]

A review of the installation of a beta release, from the point of view of a beginner, on a laptop designed for Windows? Let's see what's wrong with this...


Beta releases should be reviewed in terms of speed, efficiency, number of features... Not completeness. They are by definition incomplete!

The novice user should not be installing his own OS, especially if it is a beta.

The laptop was designed for Windows, and everyone knows that laptops tend to only work well with the OS they were optimized for (actually, it seems that modern laptops don't usually work well even with their native OS). Wouldn't it be more fair to test with a Linux laptop?

I don't really see why this is a Feisty review. He hasn't tested any of Feisty's new features. It might as well have been a Breezy review.

Actually, this doesn't look like a review at all; more like one user's experiences with his own laptop. More appropriate for a forum post than a review.

[cookfromfrozen]

I don't think dismissing Feisty because of having to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file is fair at all.

He's not "dismissing" Feisty...he's just not happy that there isn't a GUI for editing Xorg.conf.

[prizrak]

He's not "dismissing" Feisty...he's just not happy that there isn't a GUI for editing Xorg.conf.

Doesn't FGRLX come with a GUI? nVidia binary driver has a configuration GUI that is the same as the one on Windows with all the possible resolutions the video card and monitor can support whether they are in xorg.conf or not. In fact it even has a very nice tool to get dual head working and it doesn't even require restarting xorg. Generally speaking if you install Linux on something that has an ATI card you are pretty much asking for trouble. No one who did 5 minutes of research would use a Broadcomm card with Linux and expect it to work out of the box. (Though some cards now work with Feisty because of the new wireless subsystem)

[Mr. Picklesworth]

There's also the problem that there are many different screen resolutions. Preferences -> Screen Resolution is just for your account. What about the login screen? The usplash?

There needs to be a resolution configuration for the whole system. (Maybe a check box for that one, saying to apply the new resolution everywhere?)

[PartisanEntity]

I don't think dismissing Feisty because of having to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file is fair at all.

I agree with you, if someone were to have dismissed Feisty because of this one feature it would be unfair. However what I said was that this is a pretty basic feature that should have been included in Ubuntu a long time ago, it is very useful and a common issue for newbies.

I am not sure how raising one issue is interpreted as dismissing an entire version of Ubuntu, you exaggerate the criticism IMO.

I have yet to see any convincing argument that explains why there is no method to edit the xorg.conf file through a GUI, at least basic things such as screen resolution and colour depth at least.


He's not "dismissing" Feisty...he's just not happy that there isn't a GUI for editing Xorg.conf.

Exactly.

[aysiu]

This is exactly what the review says:
Initially I was determined to do this like a “normal” user, i.e. no tweaking config files and especially no script writing. I wanted to see how far your average user could get with a state of the art Linux installation on a laptop.
After the first boot, I was greeted with a VESA-driven x.org and an incorrect resolution. My laptop screen supports 1680 x 1050. The Gnome Preferences | Screen Resolution applet couldn’t go higher than 1280 x 1024. I had to break my first rule and edit the x.org configuration file to add the higher resolution. Why is this still necessary? A novice user shouldn’t need to have to do this!
All in all, I’m positive but not quite convinced yet. The Ubuntu people have done a marvellous job, but Feisty Beta (up to date as of 2007-04-10) doesn’t quite Just Work(tm) on the HP NC8430. I had to break my rule of editing config files or writing scripts more than once to get it to work to my satisfaction, and still there are problems that would make it difficult to work in Ubuntu full-time: the miserable battery life, the flaky suspend/resume and the really bad dynamic multi-monitor support. That being said, things like the user-friendly WPA support and the flawless install on an NTFS partition are going in the right direction. Sounds to me as if having to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf was a big factor in determining that Feisty doesn't quite "convince" the reviewer.

I never said it wasn't a cool thing to have (graphical configuration of screen resolution). I'm just saying that that's irrelevant to the "normal" user, because normal users don't install and configure operating systems.

You can "exactly" all you want and pat each other on the back.

The fact remains that yes it would be nice to have a graphical interface for adjusting screen resolution, and I and others would really appreciate it, but it has nothing to do with "normal" users.

[PartisanEntity]

This is exactly what the review says: Sounds to me as if having to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf was a big factor in determining that Feisty doesn't quite "convince" the reviewer.

I never said it wasn't a cool thing to have (graphical configuration of screen resolution). I'm just saying that that's irrelevant to the "normal" user, because normal users don't install and configure operating systems.

You can "exactly" all you want and pat each other on the back.

The fact remains that yes it would be nice to have a graphical interface for adjusting screen resolution, and I and others would really appreciate it, but it has nothing to do with "normal" users.

I see, by 'dismissal' you were obviously referring to the author of the review and not to my comment. I thought you were making a big fuss about nothing by referring to the point of criticism I raised as somehow amounting to a grand dismissal of Feisty as a whole.

Perhaps next time it would help if you could state to whom your comment is aimed.

[aysiu]

Perhaps next time it would help if you could state to whom your comment is aimed. I definitely will. Sorry for the confusion. Looking back now, I can see how you might think it was aimed at you, since my post came directly after yours. In the future, you may want to clarify, too, when responding ("Was your comment in response to my post or the original article?").

What I originally said is
Considering most people don't install Windows from scratch, I don't think dismissing Feisty because of having to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file is fair at all. It'd be nice to have a GUI config for that (doesn't SuSE have one?), but it's not essential in order for most users to use Ubuntu.
Edit/Delete Message That's the full post I made, and I don't think you can object to that. No one should dismiss Feisty because of having to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file. It would, in fact, be nice to have a GUI config for xorg.conf, but it is not essential for most users. I thought I was being pretty even-handed about the issue--though people saw fit to quote me out of context.

It all started here:

I don't think dismissing Feisty because of having to edit the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file is fair at all. He's not "dismissing" Feisty...he's just not happy that there isn't a GUI for editing Xorg.conf. Do you see how my entire meaning is lost from taking not only the sentence out of the whole paragraph but not even the entire sentence, just the last part of it?

[PartisanEntity]

I apologise too aysiu, next time I will ask for clarification before I assume that someone is talking to me, evidently I am not as important as I think I am :)

[Brunellus]

I apologise too aysiu, next time I will ask for clarification before I assume that someone is talking to me, evidently I am not as important as I think I am :)
Unless you're the Juggernaut (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9O7JB9proM)

[aysiu]

It's all just a big misunderstanding. No worries, mate :)

[prizrak]

SuSE front end to xorg.conf has to be the worst GUI on the planet. Despite selecting the resolution and native nVidia driver then restarting X I still somehow ended up with VMware video driver. Also made xorg.conf a complete and utter mess where it took me 20 minutes to figure where the correct options are (the file was like 10 pages). I'm hoping Xrandr will take care of that issue. It's not a big deal for nVidia users as the binary driver has it's own interface but other people might benefit.

[cookfromfrozen]

Do you see how my entire meaning is lost from taking not only the sentence out of the whole paragraph but not even the entire sentence, just the last part of it?
Like the other poster I'm confused as to whether you're referring to me or the reviewer, but in case it's me then I don't see how I quoted you out of context.

My reply was merely because I didn't think he was "dismissing" it over that one issue, and I still think that way.

If he feels multi-monitor support in Ubuntu needs work, why shouldn't he write about it? Would you rather he hid it away and switched to something else?

Whenever I see a link to a review that's critical of Ubuntu posted here, I always feel like people are going to become defensive whenever they read that someone has had the sheer gall to find a fault in Ubuntu. I guess this thread isn't going to be much different.

[macogw]

The TI SD reader is a broken driver. The bug includes directions to compile a more-up-to-date one, and that should be included in the final release.

[angkor]

Whenever I see a link to a review that's critical of Ubuntu posted here, I always feel like people are going to become defensive whenever they read that someone has had the sheer gall to find a fault in Ubuntu. I guess this thread isn't going to be much different.

A lot of the times that's true, but in this case the reviewer is reviewing a BETA release and not the final product. What he has installed on his laptop is totally changed now and will be changed again when Feitsty gets released.

Reviews of BETA software are imho senseless.

[prizrak]

The TI SD reader is a broken driver. The bug includes directions to compile a more-up-to-date one, and that should be included in the final release.

That would explain why the link to how to get it working didn't work out for me. Not that it's an issue for me but still would be nice ;)

Reviews of BETA software are imho senseless.
I would disagree. Reviews of betas are good to know what direction the software is going in. It will show features and improvements that are being put in place. HIS review was senseless because rather than concentrate on overall polish and new features he was concentrating on ease of use for an average user.

Whenever I see a link to a review that's critical of Ubuntu posted here, I always feel like people are going to become defensive whenever they read that someone has had the sheer gall to find a fault in Ubuntu. I guess this thread isn't going to be much different.
See the thing is that it is very hardware dependent. For instance, on my old Toshiba Satellite EVERYTHING worked out of the box without a single issue. We are talking AIGLX, 3D, Wi-Fi, Ether, correct resolution, hibernate/suspend, hotkeys, touchpad, CPU throttling, and better battery life. Yes I had to install codecs to play MP3, DiVx, DVD and so on but I have to do it on Windows as well so not really much of a point. On my current laptop most things work out of the box, I did need to manually install the nVidia driver, my hot keys needed a 3rd party driver, the card reader doesn't work (don't really care about it), and there is no way in hades that suspend/hibernate will work until nvidia gets their act together. On the other hand with the nVidia driver you have a very nice GUI that will allow you to not only detect correct resolutions for any screen regardless of whats in xorg.conf. It will also allow you to setup TwinView with two clicks of a mouse or you can have it setup dual head for you easily.

Basically a compehensive review of Ubuntu (or any other OS) should be done on a range of different hardware and with recomendations on what to get if you want to run that particular OS.

[angkor]

I would disagree. Reviews of betas are good to know what direction the software is going in. It will show features and improvements that are being put in place. HIS review was senseless because rather than concentrate on overall polish and new features he was concentrating on ease of use for an average user.

I agree with you on that. If you take that approach to reviewing beta software, a review isn't senseless.