Time to converge?

[iopo]

Hi everybody!

I installed Ubuntu about 3 month ago. I have no particular computer skills, but I'm doing a PhD in economics and I'm really interested in this form of technological improvement "patent free".

I did all by myself, no friend helping me. From the moment I decided to switch, to the one my computer became fully functional, I spent 3 month of hard work, 5 different installations and I lostall my data two or three times.

I found that the community and the Ubuntu developers are focusing their attention in two main directions: making the installation process the smoothest possible and providing the noobs with a lot of detailed How-To. These two things are great but they are not the only hurdle one has to jump when swithcing to Ubuntu. I would like to point out two other problems.

The first one: if you know what you need, you'll probably find an answer somewere. But what if you don't know what a 3D acceleration is? or you have no clue there are things called codecs? or you don't know that programs like compiz and beryl exist? Noobs needs not just answers, but also help in making questions!

The second and most important problem: almost completely lack of standards. For example, I first wanted to try out some linux distro and I knew nothing about it. Well, you can imagine that it took me weeks to choose Ubuntu and, trust me, I was about to give up many times! Then, once you choose a distro, you have to choose what programs to use. The only one that seems pretty common is Openoffice.org, but, other then that there are many mail client, many web browser. And the noob thinks: which one should I install? what are the differences? are they really so different? Since trying to figure all this things out takes time and a lot of effort, he just stays with Windows!

Honestly, it seems that everybody is aiming to have his own distro, with his own mail client and own browser. I understand that having a lot of choice is good. But I think having some more homogeneity will be good as well: it will help normal people to switch to this awsome world!

In a nutshell: Choice is good. Standards are goods. Is there a way to keep these two things together?

[23meg]

The first one: if you know what you need, you'll probably find an answer somewere. But what if you don't know what a 3D acceleration is? or you have no clue there are things called codecs? or you don't know that programs like compiz and beryl exist? Noobs needs not just answers, but also help in making questions!

You have a point there; near the zero knowledge point, the less one knows, the harder it may seem to get to know.

The solution? Use the existing resources, and where they're insufficient, ask questions. If you don't know what 3D acceleration is, look it up in Wikipedia. If you've never heard of Wikipedia, you will learn of it the first time you ask "What is X?" in the forums; people will point you to it, and it will empower you in your future learning. In short, if you'd like to use a new operating system, you'll definitely need to learn a new set of things, no matter how small a subset of the whole it is.

Besides, Ubuntu is taking many steps to make things easier for beginners; with the easy codec installation feature in Feisty, for example, you don't really need to know what exactly a codec is. If it's missing, you'll be guided step by step to install it.


The second and most important problem: almost completely lack of standards. For example, I first wanted to try out some linux distro and I knew nothing about it. Well, you can imagine that it took me weeks to choose Ubuntu and, trust me, I was about to give up many times! Then, once you choose a distro, you have to choose what programs to use. The only one that seems pretty common is Openoffice.org, but, other then that there are many mail client, many web browser. And the noob thinks: which one should I install? what are the differences? are they really so different? Since trying to figure all this things out takes time and a lot of effort, he just stays with Windows!

What does this have to do with lack of standards? There are many mail clients and browsers for all operating systems, and you have to choose one regardless of what operating system you use. If anything, Ubuntu ships with a set of defaults, and doesn't even let you choose which packages to install. You have a reasonably good set of basic software installed the moment you've installed the operating system, without having to make any choices.

[IYY]

The first one: if you know what you need, you'll probably find an answer somewere. But what if you don't know what a 3D acceleration is? or you have no clue there are things called codecs? or you don't know that programs like compiz and beryl exist? Noobs needs not just answers, but also help in making questions!

You're in luck; the developers understand this problem and have already fixed it in Feisty. Codec installation becomes automated ("Looks like you're trying to play an MP3 file. Click here to install the codec.") and compiz is becoming part of the system, that can be turned on by checking the "special effects" checkbox on.


The second and most important problem: almost completely lack of standards. For example, I first wanted to try out some linux distro and I knew nothing about it. Well, you can imagine that it took me weeks to choose Ubuntu and, trust me, I was about to give up many times! Then, once you choose a distro, you have to choose what programs to use. The only one that seems pretty common is Openoffice.org, but, other then that there are many mail client, many web browser. And the noob thinks: which one should I install? what are the differences? are they really so different? Since trying to figure all this things out takes time and a lot of effort, he just stays with Windows!

There are many standards about how applications should behave, how to make everything integrate nicely. Except for the Gnome/KDE problems, the problem you describe only narrows down to "there are too many distros". You could say that this is a problem, but there is absolutely no way to fix. The only way to completely standardize things is to pass "laws" forbidding forks, but then what's the point of the whole Free software movement?


Honestly, it seems that everybody is aiming to have his own distro, with his own mail client and own browser. I understand that having a lot of choice is good. But I think having some more homogeneity will be good as well: it will help normal people to switch to this awsome world!

Not everyone. There are only 3 mainstream browsers: Firefox, Opera and Konqueror. In Windows you have Firefox, Opera and IE... So how is it any different? There are only 2 mainstream mail clients for desktops (one for Gnome and one for KDE). I don't see much of a problem here.


In a nutshell: Choice is good. Standards are goods. Is there a way to keep these two things together?

There is, and I think that's exactly what the community is doing. If you look at any two Gnome distributions, you will see that they are pretty much the same in terms of the software they offer. Same for KDE distributions.

[karellen]

in fact I find linux distros vey much alike, as they have 98% common stuff under the hood. as speaking of applications, you can find almost in every distro firefox, openoffice, gaim, kword, mplayer, totem, gthumb, gwenview, gimp, epiphany, opera (if you like) and so on...

[salsafyren]

Things are getting standardized.

Regarding mail clients and browsers: I don't see a problem with this.

You're going to the supermarket and you are able to pick between tens of tooth pastes. This is nothing different than software. Just try out everything. It is free.

[use a name]

I think the standard package that gets installed for you takes care of the standards issue. I know, checking the repositories for new stuff to install may feel like free shopping for one minute, with all confusion about what to take... But take your time. It's not just one minute... ;)

[iopo]

It's not a problem once you understand how they work and are able to pick up the one you like the most. But to get to that point, it takes quite a lot of time!

I'm not saying that is hard to find a good email client or a good browser. I'm just saying: if you take windows there is a set of standard applications that almost everybody uses (that doesn't mean you cannot use others). Instead if you install KDE you get a set of applictaions, Gnome has others, there are many more around that you might want to use.

If you like it more you can see it in this way: there is no "starting point", a set of widespread applications that most of the people uses and that eventually with time and experience you are going to change with some other that fit better your needs.

Because here is my point: Is it really free? You don't pay money, but if you have to spend days trying to figure out what is the difference between Evolution, Thunderbird and Kmail, that's a cost too! Once you are in, it's free,b ut right now there is a big fix cost to pay in order to join!

Anyway, I have a question: don't you think the add-ons/themes system of firefox thunderbird could be a way to keep together the beauty of having many different apps with the strength of few widspread applications?

[salsafyren]

I understand your point.

It takes time to explore the different applications and this time is seen as waste for some.

In Linux we emphasize choice, however some people do not want to have that choice - I understand that. They want to accomplish a task, no matter what the application is.

I think Ubuntu actually already makes those choices for you. Evolution as email, Firefox as browser etc. What makes Ubuntu different than Windows here?

Actually Windows only comes with Internet Explorer and Outlook Express / Window Mail.

So you are forced to look for Office programs etc. for Windows. Ubuntu is being easier than Windows here. Do you not agree?

If you think there is overhead caused by using different apps, then why not use the default ones?

The plugin / addon idea of Firefox etc. is great! I wish that Gnome would use that idea some more.

However, the plugin idea only goes so far. Let's say that a guy has a completely new idea, that requires the core of the application do something completely different. Then it will be easier to just create a new program.

[iopo]

I agree, it's a tradeoff,

I decided to write about my experience because I saw in many threads things like: how great is having many different distro, how bad is that compiz and beryl are merging.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=229395

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=391909

It really feels like nobody understand that normal people will stay far from Linux if they percive there are too many choices that are too hard to understand!

Anyway, here is an idea. Thunderbird and Evolution are both great applications and I don't want to start a debate about whuch one is better. But for sure Thunderbird is quite close to be considered the standard email client of the opensource world. There are more how-to, it's most likely people is already using it in windows, if you have a problem one of your officemate may know how to solve it. So why not ship Ubuntu with thunderbird, integrating it better with the gnome desktop?

Next time I try to convince someone to get rid of Windows I could say: don't be afraid, it comes with firefox and with thunderbird, both programs that you already know!

[IYY]

Because here is my point: Is it really free? You don't pay money, but if you have to spend days trying to figure out what is the difference between Evolution, Thunderbird and Kmail, that's a cost too! Once you are in, it's free,b ut right now there is a big fix cost to pay in order to join!

When people say that GNU/Linux is "Free", they don't usually mean the price but the freedom to modify and redistribute the code. In fact, there are versions of Linux for which you have to pay almost as much as you would for Windows. It's true that it takes some time to learn an entirely new system, with the freedom of choice. You know the expression, Freedom isn't free. It applies here: the freedom to choose from a variety of applications, to make forks of applications, to use code to make your own applications, it comes at the price of having to spend a week or two learning. It's a price that we are willing to pay.

[aysiu]

It really feels like nobody understand that normal people will stay far from Linux if they percive there are too many choices that are too hard to understand! I agree. That's why--rather than limiting the choices--we should make the choices easier to understand. Quizzes like the Linux Distribution Chooser Quiz (http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/) are great for helping new users make sense of the choices, as is the DistroWatch explanations on the top ten Linux distributions (http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=major).

Just last night, my wife and I were having dinner with some friends and the topic of Yelp! and Amazon came up--how important helpful reviews are before making a consumer choice. Out of the five people at dinner, not one suggested, "We really should just limit the choices--one restaurant, one book, one hairstylist. Then people won't be confused." Everybody concurred that having useful information and reviews from real people helped in choosing products or businesses.

Same for Linux distributions or applications. We need more easy-to-find, pleasantly laid out, and fairly comprehensive reviews of Linux applications. Otherwise, Gnomebaker, Graveman, Nautilus, and K3B just sound like gibberish to the uninitiated, as would Nero or Roxio (except that they're almost household names now). I think Linspire's Click-N-Run is on the right track. Doesn't CNR have user reviews and ratings of various applications the package manager can install?

As others have pointed out, though, Ubuntu makes it pretty simple--one default application per task. If you don't know what to install, just use the default. If you get tired of the default, then you can explore other options.

[salsafyren]

I agree, it's a tradeoff,

You didn't answer my question about the situation on Windows.

What do people do when they want an Office app? A burner app?

By the way, gnomefiles exist. You can get peoples opinions, reviews, ratings there.

[aysiu]

GnomeFiles sounds good in theory, but...

1. How did you find it? I tried a Google search for linux applications reviews and couldn't find anything decent on the first page.

2. A lot of the "reviews" are not reviews at all but almost like support requests. Check out the comments on Banshee (http://www.gnomefiles.org/comment.php?soft_id=1178), for example.

[iopo]

Freedom isn't free. It applies here: the freedom to choose from a variety of applications, to make forks of applications, to use code to make your own applications, it comes at the price of having to spend a week or two learning. It's a price that we are willing to pay.

YII, I agree. I payed it and I'm really happy about it. But my question reamains: Is it possible to make it less expensive?


Actually Windows only comes with Internet Explorer and Outlook Express / Window Mail.

So you are forced to look for Office programs etc. for Windows. Ubuntu is being easier than Windows here. Do you not agree?

If you think there is overhead caused by using different apps, then why not use the default ones?

Salsafyren, don't misunderstand, I don't think windows is better then Ubuntu in any respect. And my critique was not about how easy is to get this or that apps. But to stick to your example: if I'm using Windows and I ask around: "can you tell me one decent burner apps?" I think that 90% of the people will say: just get Nero. Can you imagine what would happen if I asked the same in an Ubuntu forum? Many different answers, impossible to understand the real differences, and the guy that would like to try Ubuntu out will decide that for now he will stay with what he has.


Out of the five people at dinner, not one suggested, "We really should just limit the choices--one restaurant, one book, one hairstylist. Then people won't be confused." Everybody concurred that having useful information and reviews from real people helped in choosing products or businesses.


aysiu, good call! That's probably an alternative solution. The number of choices and the availability of clear information must go together. Right now there are a lot of choices and few clear info. And between opening a restaurand without properly advertise and not opening it at all I think it's better not to open it!


Anyway, here is an idea. Thunderbird and Evolution are both great applications and I don't want to start a debate about whuch one is better. But for sure Thunderbird is quite close to be considered the standard email client of the opensource world. There are more how-to, it's most likely people is already using it in windows, if you have a problem one of your officemate may know how to solve it. So why not ship Ubuntu with thunderbird, integrating it better with the gnome desktop?

Next time I try to convince someone to get rid of Windows I could say: don't be afraid, it comes with firefox and with thunderbird, both programs that you already know!


Come on guys! No comments on this?

[23meg]

Come on guys! No comments on this?

It' been discussed at such length that you wouldn't believe. Do a search for "Thunderbird vs Evolution" to find out if curious.

[iopo]

It' been discussed at such length that you wouldn't believe. Do a search for "Thunderbird vs Evolution" to find out if curious.

I just ment: should apps be included in the standard shipment also depending on how widespread they are? I think it's a valid criteria. I think that it's legitimate to say: well, they are not so different, but one is clearly more popular, so let's just go with the popular one. I didn't want to get into something like "is it better this or that".

[pirothezero]

I have to agree with a lot of the points on here.

1. Trying 10 applications for the same thing. I've gone through it from nzb loaders to mail readers to rss to A to Z for multimedia video/music. Only program I didn't have to try others with was with Gaim. And I can't really think of a way to fix this other then having a interactive document some where that you can either say what you want and it spits programs out or recommends stuff or just trying them out first hand.

2. Standards is a word that I don't think many people want to here. Standards = ordinary/flat/common, and people would argue that that's not the idea behind running the computer how you want to.

[aysiu]

I just ment: should apps be included in the standard shipment also depending on how widespread they are? I think it's a valid criteria. I think that it's legitimate to say: well, they are not so different, but one is clearly more popular, so let's just go with the popular one. I didn't want to get into something like "is it better this or that".
And you have a valid point, but not everyone agrees with you.

There's a long discussion about whether Firefox or Epiphany should be the default browser in Ubuntu (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=93219). Obviously, Firefox won out because of popularity/name recognition, but a lot of people think Epiphany should be the default because of better integration with Gnome.

It does seem weird to me that they'd pick Evolution as the default email client and Firefox as the default web browser instead of Evolution/Epiphany or Thunderbird/Firefox.

Thunderbird is the default email client in Xubuntu, however. Weird.

[aysiu]

2. Standards is a word that I don't think many people want to here. Standards = ordinary/flat/common, and people would argue that that's not the idea behind running the computer how you want to. Depends what you mean by standards. Uniformity? Only one choice of application? Then, yes, I'd say people would object to that.

But I haven't heard many objections to LSB (http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/LSB).

[salsafyren]

YII, I agree. I payed it and I'm really happy about it. But my question reamains: Is it possible to make it less expensive?

Maybe you are on to something here.

Two suggestions:

1) Improve the Add/Remove application to incorporate reviews
2) OR make a website where you could discuss the various applications, rate the etc. Easily find the most popular ones.

I could imagine a site which could be a mix of gnomefiles, getdeb.net and download.com.

What do you think about that?



Salsafyren, don't misunderstand, I don't think windows is better then Ubuntu in any respect. And my critique was not about how easy is to get this or that apps. But to stick to your example: if I'm using Windows and I ask around: "can you tell me one decent burner apps?" I think that 90% of the people will say: just get Nero. Can you imagine what would happen if I asked the same in an Ubuntu forum? Many different answers, impossible to understand the real differences, and the guy that would like to try Ubuntu out will decide that for now he will stay with what he has.


I was only being curios. There are a lot of people using double standards against Linux. Good, that you are not one of them.

Regarding the responses you would have gotten in an Ubuntu forum; Image this: you go to a forum where people like red wine, not only like, but are passionate about it. You ask: "which kind of red wine do you like?" You would have gotten many answers. There is no difference between red wine enthusiasts or computer enthusiasts. We are equally passionate.

I am accustomed to many different things. Man is a curios being. That's why we don't live in caves anymore: we are fundamentally curios! (at least I am :-))

[salsafyren]

GnomeFiles sounds good in theory, but...

1. How did you find it? I tried a Google search for linux applications reviews and couldn't find anything decent on the first page.

Well, I read osnews.com a lot.



2. A lot of the "reviews" are not reviews at all but almost like support requests. Check out the comments on Banshee (http://www.gnomefiles.org/comment.php?soft_id=1178), for example.

That's correct. It could be better.

[iopo]

. Standards is a word that I don't think many people want to here. Standards = ordinary/flat/common, and people would argue that that's not the idea behind running the computer how you want to.

Pirothezero, I chose the word "standards" for two reasons. The first is just to be provocative: I don't like it too much either but I was sure it would have attracted attention. The second is that it belongs to the marketing/business jergon: in some sense, all I wrote is just a way to introduce some of that way of thinking into the discussion.


Two suggestions:

1) Improve the Add/Remove application to incorporate reviews
2) OR make a website where you could discuss the various applications, rate the etc. Easily find the most popular ones.



Salsafyren, I think the idea of having official reviews is great! I think there is also another very easy thing to do. I remember when I was looking for a DVDshrink-like app I read so much stuff that in the end I wanted to know just one thing: which one is the most common?

So I think that a better use of the Popularity Contest and a better availability of the Popularity Contest data could be useful. The first one I can think about is organizing the "stars" next to the name of the app in "add/remove applications" by category. Right now all you know looking at it is that Mahjong is more popular then VLC; this is quite meaningless. A better way to use this information is to organize it by category: among all the media player, which one is the most widespread?

Anyway, I'm glad there are ideas coming out. If I knew how to properly use the forum (I just blame myself for this!) I may think of starting a poll!

[aysiu]

What's the point of being provocative? Then you get everybody all worked up over nothing? "Oh, yeah, I was really talking about..."

Why not just state what you mean and then have people talk about that right away?

[iopo]

What's the point of being provocative? Then you get everybody all worked up over nothing? "Oh, yeah, I was really talking about..."

Why not just state what you mean and then have people talk about that right away?

The word "standard" exactly fit what I was trying to say. Just, among all the word I could have used for the same purpose, I chose the one I thought would have stimulated the conversation the most.