Ubuntu == Linux ???

[julian67]

I disagree there. This has been a problem in the past but its now pretty much just a one horse race for desktop Linux. It was that Fedora Core was a serious competitor to Ubuntu but thats not the case now. Think Linux == Ubuntu so therefore if manufacturers build and test for Ubuntu they've pretty much got the widest Linux useage covered.



If they want to then they have to provide source to the kernel maintainers. If they just want to support the community then they just need to release specs. If they want to ensure everything works on the most popular distribution which is showing no signs of slowing down then they just need to make Ubuntu packages.



It's really not. It's converging. If you look at any new Linux distribution created now, they're all based on Ubuntu. There's no point to starting a new distro from scratch as Ubuntu already has everything in place and hobbyists can base from that.

I'm sorry but that is a long way from the truth and is extremely blinkered. Linux does not equal Ubuntu. Being top of the list at Distrowatch doesn't give any indication of actual numbers of desktops installed. There are almost certainly far more enterprise desktops installed than home/small business ones. I would expect that globally RHEL and SLED are the principal Linux desktops and on servers Red Hat again and SLES and Debian and Slackware. Ubuntu possibly has the lead for individual users but no one can be sure, maybe it's Fedora or openSuse. They've been around a lot longer and have an established user base. As for new distros they are not all based on Ubuntu by a long way. For example there are plenty out there being developed from Slackware in preference to Debian base. Ubuntu is just one Debian derivative of many and Debian is just one take on GNU/Linux. There are plenty of other valid approaches which for some people are more suitable.

.

[deanlinkous]

Think Linux == Debian so therefore if manufacturers build and test for Debian they've pretty much got the widest Linux useage covered.

There's no point to starting a new distro from scratch as Debian already has everything in place and hobbyists can base from that. And more importantly is not controlled by any company/person and is composed entirely of free software.

:lolflag:

[julian67]

Think Linux == Debian so therefore if manufacturers build and test for Debian they've pretty much got the widest Linux useage covered.

There's no point to starting a new distro from scratch as Debian already has everything in place and hobbyists can base from that. And more importantly is not controlled by any company/person and is composed entirely of free software.

:lolflag:

Linux=Debian just isn't true. "Debian already has everything in place" is also not true. Debian and derivatives are significant and important but they are absolutely not the whole story. Hardware makers develop for the kernel, the distro is completely irrelevant for them. And which software producer is going to ignore rpm or source based distros? None of them. Anyone developing with Debian/Ubuntu as the target is immediately excluding themselves from the rpm market which at the moment means almost every Linux installed or potential corporate desktop. It would be a commercially insane course of action which is why nobody follows it.

It's a shame that people into Free software can think like proprietary vendors and religionists, that they have the only way. It doesn't reflect the facts of Free software and the diversity and quality available, or even resemble what is easily seen to be happening.

[rsambuca]

C'mon, guys. Promoting ubuntu is one thing, but to do so by expressing outright falsehoods is not the way to go about it. Clearly linux does NOT equate to ubuntu, nor to debian. Sorry darrenm, but your last post is incorrect on so many levels I just don't even know where to begin!:???:

[prizrak]

Linux=Debian just isn't true. "Debian already has everything in place" is also not true. Debian and derivatives are significant and important but they are absolutely not the whole story. Hardware makers develop for the kernel, the distro is completely irrelevant for them. And which software producer is going to ignore rpm or source based distros? None of them. Anyone developing with Debian/Ubuntu as the target is immediately excluding themselves from the rpm market which at the moment means almost every Linux installed or potential corporate desktop. It would be a commercially insane course of action which is why nobody follows it.

It's a shame that people into Free software can think like proprietary vendors and religionists, that they have the only way. It doesn't reflect the facts of Free software and the diversity and quality available, or even resemble what is easily seen to be happening.

Well if we are talking real support from vendors then they will just have to release specs to their hardware and then it will be up to the community. Intel did that, you will not find a single distro that won't work with Intel. If we are talking nVidia type of support then yes, develop for the vanilla kernel and it will trickle down to all distros as pretty much all of them take vanilla and then add on to it.

[darrenm]

I'm sorry but that is a long way from the truth and is extremely blinkered. Linux does not equal Ubuntu. Being top of the list at Distrowatch doesn't give any indication of actual numbers of desktops installed.

What does then? Google Trends? (http://www.google.com/trends?q=ubuntu%2C+red+hat) more Google Trends? (http://www.google.com/trends?q=ubuntu%2C+fedora&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all) quite shocking Google Trends? (http://www.google.com/trends?q=ubuntu%2C+windows+vista&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all) , how whenever Linux on the desktop is mentioned everyone goes all Ubuntu-crazy? (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/30/letters_3003/) , Google searches for Linux turns up only Ubuntu and Kubuntu then Red Hat on the first page (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=EAR&q=linux&btnG=Search&meta=) As far as the real world at the current time is concerned, Linux == Ubuntu. I can't see how you can fail to notice the sheer weight of momentum. Perhaps its just the UK.


There are almost certainly far more enterprise desktops installed than home/small business ones.

I really can't see that. Enterprise desktops are not very big business for Linux at the moment. Enterprise use is unfortunately mostly Windows.


I would expect that globally RHEL and SLED are the principal Linux desktops

In which universe? Certainly not this one.


and on servers Red Hat again and SLES

Yes, the only thing so far I would agree with. #1 most widely used distro for servers is Red Hat with maybe some form of Suse next.


and Debian and Slackware. Ubuntu possibly has the lead for individual users but no one can be sure, maybe it's Fedora or openSuse. They've been around a lot longer and have an established user base.

A small, ever shrinking user base which started with:
a. Red Hat offending their supporters by making their software commercial and the free version a testing tree for the commercial stuff (Fedora)
b. Novell getting into bed with Microsoft


As for new distros they are not all based on Ubuntu by a long way. For example there are plenty out there being developed from Slackware in preference to Debian base.

The majority of the big new distros are based on Ubuntu. Ulteo, gNewSense etc.


Ubuntu is just one Debian derivative of many and Debian is just one take on GNU/Linux. There are plenty of other valid approaches which for some people are more suitable.

Yes, I think you misunderstand my meaning of think Linux == Ubuntu. This is only in the context of the OP having concerns over commercial support for Linux in the future. I fully understand that there isn't just one Linux distro and that there are many different approaches. However anyone who thinks that the race for desktop Linux isn't firmly in the hands of Ubuntu now has been living under a rock for the past 12 months.

[darrenm]

C'mon, guys. Promoting ubuntu is one thing, but to do so by expressing outright falsehoods is not the way to go about it. Clearly linux does NOT equate to ubuntu, nor to debian. Sorry darrenm, but your last post is incorrect on so many levels I just don't even know where to begin!:???:

Again perhaps I didn't make it clear. Historically Linux != Ubuntu as there's a lot more to it than that. But as far as the current real world is concerned all media reports, new user exposure etc. is all centred around Ubuntu.

Please try to find where to begin, I'm interested to see which parts you consider incorrect?

[aysiu]

It could be that Ubuntu is becoming "Linux" in the sense that Kleenex has become "tissue" for many people or Xerox has become "photocopying" for many people.

There are still a few popular desktop-oriented distros out there not based on Ubuntu, but it does seem to be moving in the Ubuntu direction. Mepis recently switched from being based on Knoppix to being based on Ubuntu. Linspire is also making the switch from being based on Debian to being based directly on Ubuntu (a fine distinction, of course, since Ubuntu itself is based on Debian).

Things are moving in that direction, but I don't think we're quite there yet.

Certainly, as far as news stories go, Ubuntu is almost always mentioned when desktop Linux is brought up.

[darrenm]

Linux=Debian just isn't true. "Debian already has everything in place" is also not true. Debian and derivatives are significant and important but they are absolutely not the whole story. Hardware makers develop for the kernel, the distro is completely irrelevant for them. And which software producer is going to ignore rpm or source based distros? None of them. Anyone developing with Debian/Ubuntu as the target is immediately excluding themselves from the rpm market which at the moment means almost every Linux installed or potential corporate desktop. It would be a commercially insane course of action which is why nobody follows it.

It's a shame that people into Free software can think like proprietary vendors and religionists, that they have the only way. It doesn't reflect the facts of Free software and the diversity and quality available, or even resemble what is easily seen to be happening.
This is how I see it's going to go down:

Dell start shipping Ubuntu on PC's. There's no way they could ship with anything else for a number of reasons. (I'll provide a list if required)

Dell are unable to force AMD or Nvidia to release specs or provide source. The binary route is fine for Dell anyway as it still works, they don't care about the old philosophies.

As Dell only ship Ubuntu, things will only get tested with Ubuntu. If it works with other distros then great. If not, tough luck.

Other distros sink even further into oblivion as the age of the binary driver in Linux matures and Ubuntu becomes a better, free, non-monopolistic version of Windows.

I'm not saying its a good thing but you have to be realistic.

[prizrak]

This is how I see it's going to go down:

Dell start shipping Ubuntu on PC's. There's no way they could ship with anything else for a number of reasons. (I'll provide a list if required)

Dell are unable to force AMD or Nvidia to release specs or provide source. The binary route is fine for Dell anyway as it still works, they don't care about the old philosophies.

As Dell only ship Ubuntu, things will only get tested with Ubuntu. If it works with other distros then great. If not, tough luck.

Other distros sink even further into oblivion as the age of the binary driver in Linux matures and Ubuntu becomes a better, free, non-monopolistic version of Windows.

I'm not saying its a good thing but you have to be realistic.

Interesting. Considering that Lenovo is offering SLED certified laptops and Dell has said that they are working to certify laptops and desktops with SLED. Yes you are correct Ubuntu does seem the way to go. You are forgetting one simple thing, MS has explicitly stated that they "like" SuSE and will work with them to ensure interoperability. They made no such claim about any other OS. There is a good chance even that SLED will get some kind of proprietary tool that will allow for seemless integration with Windows Domains (this is a HUGE issue for most companies).

You are also forgetting the fact that Dell already has a relationship with RedHat making it more than likely to choose them as the distro. I like Ubuntu as much as anyone and as far as I'm concerned it is the best distro to preload, however there is no logical reason to believe that Ubuntu will be preloaded by the Big Bois (tm).

[rsambuca]

OK, for us non-computer lingo guys, could you please spell out in words what you mean by "=="?

I'll get to the rest later.

[qamelian]

OK, for us non-computer lingo guys, could you please spell out in words what you mean by "=="?

I'll get to the rest later.

== means something is the equivalent of something else. And for the record it's not just computer lingo. It's also used in some areas of high school math.:)

[FyreBrand]

C'mon, guys. Promoting ubuntu is one thing, but to do so by expressing outright falsehoods is not the way to go about it. Clearly linux does NOT equate to ubuntu, nor to debian. Sorry darrenm, but your last post is incorrect on so many levels I just don't even know where to begin!:???:Yeah I totally agree here. I don't know where people got the idea that Ubuntu is Linux or the other way around. That's just nuts.

I certainly want K/X/Ubuntu to be successful, but the fact that there are other distributions doing what they do is so very important to the health of Linux. Certainly not every small or hobbyist distribution is based on Ubuntu. Quite the contrary.

Ideally drivers should be written at the kernel level. Closed binary blobs isn't going to be an easy hurdle to work over, but eventually I think it will work itself out.

What is really important is that standards are developed and adhered to no matter if you do things the Debian, Red Hat, or Chocolate Pudding way. I love what The Linux Foundation is doing (http://www.linux-foundation.org/en/Main_Page). This is the right direction to head.

[FyreBrand]

This is how I see it's going to go down:

Dell start shipping Ubuntu on PC's. There's no way they could ship with anything else for a number of reasons. (I'll provide a list if required)

Dell are unable to force AMD or Nvidia to release specs or provide source. The binary route is fine for Dell anyway as it still works, they don't care about the old philosophies.

As Dell only ship Ubuntu, things will only get tested with Ubuntu. If it works with other distros then great. If not, tough luck.

Other distros sink even further into oblivion as the age of the binary driver in Linux matures and Ubuntu becomes a better, free, non-monopolistic version of Windows.

I'm not saying its a good thing but you have to be realistic.I would definitely like to know what number of reasons they couldn't ship with anything else. I can think of two quick counter-examples. Dell has a working relationship already with Red Hat and Novell. Red Hat and Novell both could present adequate desktop offerings and also provide the support necessary to back it up. It would be nice if Canonical could and would provide that level of support but I don't think they have that infrastructure in place at the moment.

[rsambuca]

== means something is the equivalent of something else. And for the record it's not just computer lingo. It's also used in some areas of high school math.:)

Oooh, I think that was a dig;) . I know it has been a while, but I did get a pure math minor with my Bachelor's of Science, and I still don't recall the double equals sign. Could be my memory, though:confused: .

[rsambuca]

Again perhaps I didn't make it clear. Historically Linux != Ubuntu as there's a lot more to it than that. But as far as the current real world is concerned all media reports, new user exposure etc. is all centred around Ubuntu.

Please try to find where to begin, I'm interested to see which parts you consider incorrect?

You tend to write in superlatives which clearly are not true. Perhaps it is your excitement and writing style.

In your previous posts to which I was first referring, you tend to write as if you are quoting facts, when you are mere posing your opinion, or opinion of what the facts are without any substantive proof.

For example, from some of your previous posts:


Google searches for Linux turns up only Ubuntu and Kubuntu then Red Hat on the first pageI just did a Google search for linux, and got a bunch of general linux sites, and for distros, it had ubuntu, red hat, gentoo, and no kubuntu. These searches are not static entities.


As far as the real world at the current time is concerned, Linux == UbuntuIn your opinion. There are many people, myself included, that believe that statement to be pure fallicy. Because a distro has great momentum clearly does not mean the same thing as being the equivalent of linux. Like every other linux distro, ubuntu uses the linux kernel. There is a huge difference in symantics.


If you look at any new Linux distribution created now, they're all based on UbuntuClearly not.

Please don't get me wrong, I agree with many of your sentiments, but when reading your posts, the numerous inconsistencies and gross exaggerations seriously undermine your credibility to the point of making your entire posts meaningless.

I do love your zeal, though:)

[kuja]

Oooh, I think that was a dig;) . I know it has been a while, but I did get a pure math minor with my Bachelor's of Science, and I still don't recall the double equals sign. Could be my memory, though:confused: .
It's mainly used in computer programming, where it's used to differentiate between setting the value of a variable and evaluating a boolean expression.

x = 1 + 1

result, set x = to 2

1 == 0

returns the boolean value false. The opposite of == is != (note equal/not equivalent.).

[darrenm]

Interesting. Considering that Lenovo is offering SLED certified laptops and Dell has said that they are working to certify laptops and desktops with SLED. Yes you are correct Ubuntu does seem the way to go. You are forgetting one simple thing, MS has explicitly stated that they "like" SuSE and will work with them to ensure interoperability. They made no such claim about any other OS. There is a good chance even that SLED will get some kind of proprietary tool that will allow for seemless integration with Windows Domains (this is a HUGE issue for most companies).

You are also forgetting the fact that Dell already has a relationship with RedHat making it more than likely to choose them as the distro. I like Ubuntu as much as anyone and as far as I'm concerned it is the best distro to preload, however there is no logical reason to believe that Ubuntu will be preloaded by the Big Bois (tm).

Yes very good point and something I hadn't considered. From my own experience trying out Opensuse and FCx distro's they aren't ready for mass market distribution for uninitiated users. I believe Ubuntu is purely because of apt. Yum really isn't very good compared to it. All in all I just get the feeling that if any OEM did decide to attempt the Linux desktop market they would have to use the best distro which would give them the best chance of success and neither SLED or RH / FC would do that. Also from reading Mark Shuttleworths blog he suddenly seems to have an good inside idea of the problems an OEM shipping Linux would face which would suggest, given the timing, that he has been speaking to Dell or someone else.

[darrenm]

I would definitely like to know what number of reasons they couldn't ship with anything else. I can think of two quick counter-examples. Dell has a working relationship already with Red Hat and Novell. Red Hat and Novell both could present adequate desktop offerings and also provide the support necessary to back it up. It would be nice if Canonical could and would provide that level of support but I don't think they have that infrastructure in place at the moment.

Whether they already have a relationship or not, they aren't going to ship something that won't be the most supported, widely-used, hyped up, popular distro that will ultimately make the whole operation pointless (apart from giving them some free publicity, which may be what the whole thing is about)

I don't think Novell or RH could present adequate desktop offerings for the vast unwashed. Mainly because, as I've said before, they don't have apt.

[julian67]

Darrenm I don't know how to reply to your every point without repeating my own words and several other's so I won't! But if you seriously and honestly look at the corporate market it is principally about RHEL and Suse, you can just google or read through the news reports over the last 6 months on Linux.com, it's all there if you have the willingness to see it. I'm really not bashing Ubuntu, after all I'm writing this from an Ubuntu desktop right now, but it isn't the one true holy way nor is it really any better than several other desktops that are popular. It excels in areas that new users find intimidating or difficult, principally the first install and getting quick answers online. It falls down in certain other areas which might not be apparent if they don't affect you which is the case for most desktop users. Mark Shuttleworth made a decision to concentrate on supporting certain hardware that is popular on the desktop at the expense of devices/systems that are unlikely to be used outside the business environment in order to give people the best chance of a desktop that just works out of the box. It's a perfectly legitimate strategy that has succeeded brilliantly but it does mean that enterprise customers are probably going to look at well established distros that do specifically cater to their needs in preference to Ubuntu, with its prime focus on soho desktop users.

RHEL and Suse are in no conceivable way sinking into oblivion!!! A quick look through the news will show you that companies of the scale of Peugeot Citroen, WalMart, Credit Suisse, Metropolitan Bank Group, Audi AG are installing tens of thousands of Suse desktops at a time, that governments of entire states or even countries are switching to Linux and choosing well established enterprise distros. If a business wants to buy IBM products with Linux pre installed they are offered RHEL or Suse, not Ubuntu. They are likely to remain the principal Enterprise distros for a long time and their free open source distros (Fedora and openSuse) are also likely to remain extremely popular. Ubuntu probably is the distro most new home/small office users will try first, but you know we all get curious and like to try different things. Just as people migrate to Ubuntu from MS and from other distros you can be sure that people do migrate from Ubuntu to other distros too. It's impossible to see GNU/Linux distros all disappearing into an Ubuntu monolith, the license pretty much makes this impossible, there will always be choices and there will always be distros that excel in different areas and fall down in others.

I understand Apt has an awseome reputation but really it isn't perfect. It is likely to replaced in Ubuntu by Smart package manager. Mark Shuttleworth has been talking about this (if you care to listen). I've used both and Smart has some serious advantages in its ability to resolve dependencies. I love the speed of Apt and especially its update notification, but am surprised how often it installs packages without vital dependencies being met, leaving me to finish the job. It has been the best package manager for a long time and has a great reputation but imo it has lost its status and only retains the reputation.

The only place where people seriously consider Ubuntu to be the only viable distro seems to be in these forums. It's a tunnel vision fanboy mentality that doesn't reflect history, reality or what's going on in the rest of the Free desktop world. Fortunately the people who actually manage and develop Ubuntu aren't so narrow minded and are happy to draw on the strengths and ideas of other distros as well as make their own contributions, which is how it should be. The GNU license collaborative development model pretty much guarantees that no single distro is ever going to be massively superior to another, this can only happen in the proprietary world. If you think otherwise you seem to have misunderstood how the different distros supplement and complement each other and how innovations and developments are by definition available to everyone.

And btw your assumption that I'm in the UK is erroneous, I'm half the planet away from Britain.

[darrenm]

You tend to write in superlatives which clearly are not true. Perhaps it is your excitement and writing style.

But to me they clearly are true so from my own point of view they are well placed adjectives. That's not to say I'm right or you're wrong or vice versa, we just have 2 different points of view. You possibly should try harder to accept this premise.
Perhaps I do get over-excited about Ubuntu, its exciting times at the moment. I hate Microsoft with a passion (and I actually have good reason to from my previous involvement with them.) The writing style may be down to having to press the point home in previous usenet arguments. :)


In your previous posts to which I was first referring, you tend to write as if you are quoting facts, when you are mere posing your opinion, or opinion of what the facts are without any substantive proof.

For example, from some of your previous posts:

I just did a Google search for linux, and got a bunch of general linux sites, and for distros, it had ubuntu, red hat, gentoo, and no kubuntu. These searches are not static entities.

But I gave a link?? I know the results are dynamic but they shouldn't be that skewed. I've posted a screenshot to show that I was quoting facts, not just merely posting my opinion. Check the screenshot for substantive proof.


In your opinion. There are many people, myself included, that believe that statement to be pure fallicy.

And there are many other people, myself included that believe that statement to not be pure fallacy. Your point is?


Because a distro has great momentum clearly does not mean the same thing as being the equivalent of linux.

From the popular media and the point of view of new users looking at Linux for the first time, I believe it does. And again, its not as clear as you seem to think everything is.


Like every other linux distro, ubuntu uses the linux kernel. There is a huge difference in symantics.

Re-read my last 3 posts and my last paragraph about from everyone else's but us seasoned Linux users, Linux == Ubuntu at the current time. I stand by this.


Clearly not.

Clearly so.


Please don't get me wrong, I agree with many of your sentiments, but when reading your posts, the numerous inconsistencies and gross exaggerations seriously undermine your credibility to the point of making your entire posts meaningless.

I'm not trying to play playground games, but when reading your posts I get the sense you are still stuck in the nineties and you can't see what's happening around you. You seem to think everything you say is clear-cut and you are the only authority on anything which makes anyone else point of view null and void. You seem to use the word 'clearly' a lot to make it look like your opinion is the only accepted correct one


I do love your zeal, though:)

No offence but I'm not sure I like your demeaning posting style.

[darrenm]

And btw your assumption that I'm in the UK is erroneous, I'm half the planet away from Britain.

No I meant I am

[jlk]

The latest generation Xfree86 + CDE was slick and definitely represented among the best-of-breed in UNIX GUI's. A SUN desktop user would be perfectly at home here. An advanced Win32 GUI user would have a short learning cycle to become productive.

Vinod Valloppillil
Josh Cohen
Aug 11, 1998
in the document commonly referred to as "Halloween II"

That was 8 1/2 years ago and we've progressed since them.

[deanlinkous]

oh well...
:lolflag:

[rsambuca]

No offence but I'm not sure I like your demeaning posting style.Hey look, I didn't really want to start a flame war here, you were the one that insisted I elaborate. Let's agree to disagree on this one. I will say, though, that there are things called ISSUES, and there are things called FACTS. You tend to raise issues, give your opinion on them, state them as facts, and then base further assumptions on this faulty reasoning. I am sorry you don't see this.

[julian67]

Hey look, I didn't really want to start a flame war here, you were the one that insisted I elaborate. Let's agree to disagree on this one. I will say, though, that there are things called ISSUES, and there are things called FACTS. You tend to raise issues, give your opinion on them, state them as facts, and then base further assumptions on this faulty reasoning. I am sorry you don't see this.

You're right on this, if you present this guy with plain verifiable facts that don't fit his mentality he just ignores them and looks for less tangible subject matter to argue about. No point really discussing with him, I think we both wasted our time. He's got thet religious fever, there's only one true way and everything else can go hang (as they say in Zimbabwe).

[darrenm]

Wow. You two guys have really got my number. Its uncanny.

[qamelian]

Oooh, I think that was a dig;) . I know it has been a while, but I did get a pure math minor with my Bachelor's of Science, and I still don't recall the double equals sign. Could be my memory, though:confused: .

No dig intended. Off the top of my head, I don't even recall specifically where it was used, but I do remember driving my math teacher to distraction because I kept confusing with the symbol for "approximately equal to", which I think (memory failing...going fast!) was a tilde over an = .

[SunnyRabbiera]

Well Ubuntu is becomming a household linux name no doubt, getting right up there with names like Debian, Redhat, Novell/ Suse and Slackware.
But unbuntu is not the end all and be all of linux, there are many distros out there that I think if given the time and oppertunity could give ubuntu a run for its money.
Take PClinux, its becomming quite a pop star as of late.
Mepis is also a nice contender, same with Sabayon.
Right now ubuntu is on top of the linux mountin but in 5 years it can be almost off the list, look at mandriva its nowhere near where it was before.

[karellen]

:confused: oh...those disputes....

[deanlinkous]

for clarification - I stated Debian == Linux as a play on the Ubuntu == Linux statement

I assumed we were making (late) april fools jokes :D

[TravisNewman]

Here's the thing... doesn't matter what's in the media at all. Popularity does not equal ubiquity.

I'd be willing to guarantee that more people own Beatles albums than Daughtry albums, but Daughtry is much more popular. I can't remember reading a lot of news about the Beatles, hearing interviews, or anything like that for a good while. That must mean nobody likes the Beatles anymore? Hardly.

Popularity != ubiquity

[FyreBrand]

Whether they already have a relationship or not, they aren't going to ship something that won't be the most supported, widely-used, hyped up, popular distro that will ultimately make the whole operation pointless (apart from giving them some free publicity, which may be what the whole thing is about)

I don't think Novell or RH could present adequate desktop offerings for the vast unwashed. Mainly because, as I've said before, they don't have apt.Apt works for RPM based distros as well. A tool as cool as apt can't be hoarded :)

[darrenm]

So I've heard. I assume its not as tightly integrated into those other distros as into Ubuntu though?

[SlayerMan]

I agree with julian67 here. Ubuntu is one of the top two top home user distros (head-to-head race with opensuse I would say), but it's penetration into the enterprise market tends to nought. And there's the money to be made, so ISVs generally try to ensure their linux software runs on those enterprise distros.

[Jussi Kukkonen]

But I gave a link?? I know the results are dynamic but they shouldn't be that skewed. I've posted a screenshot to show that I was quoting facts, not just merely posting my opinion. Check the screenshot for substantive proof.

darrenm, let's take a look at your screenshot:

6 sites about the kernel or linux operating systems in general
1 Ubuntu site
1 Debian site
1 Kubuntu site
1 Red Hat site
1 Get The Facts -ad
There is nothing to prove your point there.

I'd like to point out that you've obviously either forgotten or didn't experience the time when Red Hat was "teh linux" -- the same language that you are now using was used to prove why no other distros will ever rise from anonymity and that their development is a waste of resources ...

I'm not trying to play playground games, but when reading your posts I get the sense you are still stuck in the nineties and you can't see what's happening around you. You seem to think everything you say is clear-cut and you are the only authority on anything which makes anyone else point of view null and void. You seem to use the word 'clearly' a lot to make it look like your opinion is the only accepted correct one
I really do not want to offend anyone, but if you want this conversation to progress, I believe you need to look in the mirror. "I'm not trying to play playground games, but when reading your posts I get the sense you are still stuck in the nineties" -- that suggests not only that you might lack some perspective in this (see my previous comment) but also that you do try to play playground games (and it's not like it's your only post in this thread that looks like that)...

[darrenm]

darrenm, let's take a look at your screenshot:

6 sites about the kernel or linux operating systems in general
1 Ubuntu site
1 Debian site
1 Kubuntu site
1 Red Hat site
1 Get The Facts -ad
There is nothing to prove your point there.

OK. I really should just let this lie but I feel I have my name to defend.

Firstly
Being top of the list at Distrowatch doesn't give any indication of actual numbers of desktops installed. which of course in itself doesn't prove anything. My original and continuing point is that from the perspective of most new users coming into the Linux world for the first time or people who don't know Linux seeing media reports about Linux will almost certainly have Ubuntu presented as the main and usually only candidate. We are talking about desktop readiness (well we were) so Enterprise where RH and SLED will be pushed heavily isn't really being covered. Its a different type of Linux distro that needs to be used in the SOHO/HU market and FC or openSuse just don't fit the bill. The links I supplied help to demonstrate that when someone is searching for Linux, the first page on Google shows only 4 distributions, Ubuntu, Debian, Kubuntu then Red Hat. 2 of the 4 are Ubuntu-based and Ubuntu is heavily based on Debian. Red Hat, the original king of the distributions has been relegated down to fourth place. All this proves is that at least more people are talking about Ubuntu and Kubuntu that any other distro and I would guess that the main reason Debian gets that high ranking is because of the Ubuntu involvement. The other links to Google trends demonstrate that many more people are searching for Ubuntu compared to Red Hat or Fedora Core and surprisingly, almost as many people are searching for Ubuntu as Windows Vista. Of course this could mean that more people need support or encounter problems with Ubuntu.

Then
I'm interested to see which parts you consider incorrect?
asking for which parts are incorrect. This is a friendly, open debate after all...

and I got back
You tend to write in superlatives which clearly are not true
you tend to write as if you are quoting facts
the numerous inconsistencies and gross exaggerations seriously undermine your credibility to the point of making your entire posts meaningless.

which suddenly made the debate a little more unfriendly. Using the word 'clearly' so many times doesn't do anything to convince me that (s)he is any more of an authority on this than I am.


I'd like to point out that you've obviously either forgotten or didn't experience the time when Red Hat was "teh linux" -- the same language that you are now using was used to prove why no other distros will ever rise from anonymity and that their development is a waste of resources ...

Nope I remember. I was there. I didn't use Red Hat though. Didn't like it. I remember Red Hat wasn't really "teh linux" though. At least in the experience that I had (businesses, IT crowd etc) Mandrake was more popular than Red Hat. That's why I said that perhaps this difference in opinion is down to geographical differences rather than anything else. On the other side of the planet it may be a completely different story, I don't know. I'm not trying to pretend that I do unlike a couple of others. I do know there is a lot of buzz around desktop Linux only in relation to Ubuntu in circles that I move though.


I really do not want to offend anyone, but if you want this conversation to progress, I believe you need to look in the mirror.

Neither do I! Ever since I posted a few of my opinions I've just had to defend myself in every post whether its about my posting style, my supposed over-use of superlatives, my gross exaggerations, my lack of supporting evidence etc.


"I'm not trying to play playground games, but when reading your posts I get the sense you are still stuck in the nineties" -- that suggests not only that you might lack some perspective in this (see my previous comment) but also that you do try to play playground games (and it's not like it's your only post in this thread that looks like that)...

I'm sorry I utterly disagree with that. I was responding to where I am being told my posts are worthless because what I say seriously undermines my credibility. Thats fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion (apart from me it seems) but my opinion of the person who posted that was that they can't see whats going on around them while they are trying make it look like they are the only source of correct information. Tit for tat? Or am I still the only guilty party?

[prizrak]

darrenm,
In the context of Linux preinstallation that we were talking about it really doesn't matter what the "best Linux for desktop" is. Doesn't even matter what is the most popular one. Dell will first and foremost concentrate on the enterprise desktop, this is where the money really is. Look at Apple, they concentrate on the home user market and despite a quality product they have about the same amout of users as the "geek toy" OS that you have to install yourself.

You have mentioned that there are many reasons for why Dell would go with Ubuntu as their main offering. There are actually quite a few reasons why they wouldn't. They might go the Ubuntu way when it comes to home systems (unlikely) but I'm about 90% sure that they won't offer Ubuntu for the business market. I'm also a 100% sure that if they do offer Ubuntu it will not be the only choice.

[darrenm]

darrenm,
In the context of Linux preinstallation that we were talking about it really doesn't matter what the "best Linux for desktop" is. Doesn't even matter what is the most popular one. Dell will first and foremost concentrate on the enterprise desktop, this is where the money really is. Look at Apple, they concentrate on the home user market and despite a quality product they have about the same amout of users as the "geek toy" OS that you have to install yourself.

You have mentioned that there are many reasons for why Dell would go with Ubuntu as their main offering. There are actually quite a few reasons why they wouldn't. They might go the Ubuntu way when it comes to home systems (unlikely) but I'm about 90% sure that they won't offer Ubuntu for the business market. I'm also a 100% sure that if they do offer Ubuntu it will not be the only choice.
You may be right. We will soon see ;)

Also it could just be a way for Dell to get some free publicity.

[igknighted]

This is how I see it's going to go down:

Dell start shipping Ubuntu on PC's. There's no way they could ship with anything else for a number of reasons. (I'll provide a list if required)

Dell are unable to force AMD or Nvidia to release specs or provide source. The binary route is fine for Dell anyway as it still works, they don't care about the old philosophies.

As Dell only ship Ubuntu, things will only get tested with Ubuntu. If it works with other distros then great. If not, tough luck.

Other distros sink even further into oblivion as the age of the binary driver in Linux matures and Ubuntu becomes a better, free, non-monopolistic version of Windows.

I'm not saying its a good thing but you have to be realistic.


Do you really think that this could ever happen to linux? I promise you that the license on the linux kernel would be changed so fast to disallow binary blobs to connect with the kernel. Unrealistic? I think not, it's been threatened before. The people who control these things are driven by philosophy and ethics, and probably don't care to a large extent if linux becomes mainstream. If you were Linus what would you do? Also, Debian would cut Ubuntu off so fast it wouldn't be funny. There goes those massive repo's that give Ubuntu the edge.

Regardless, I don't see Dell having any real effect on the linux world. I think Dell selling linux again will flop in the consumer market, because a windows OEM license costs next to nothing to Dell, so the price is very similar. Plus, you have to go out of your way to get linux the way they do it, so you will never have most average users giving it a chance. As for linux users, most of us want to do our own install anyways, so why do we care if Dell preinstalls it?

PS, I don't think Ubuntu is a good choice for an OEM distro. Forget the alliances that Dell has, forget the overblown attention Ubuntu gets, and just look at merits... Ubuntu has poorly set up repo's, which will be worsened I fear when CNR arrives. It also has a rediculously ugly brown theme that will turn many users away before they give it a chance. Finally, and most importantly, Ubuntu has very poor GUI's for system administration. Look at Suse or Mandriva/PCLOS, and even Fedora to a lesser extent... these distro's have a great set of apps (yast and drak) that do a lot of what is scattered or CLI only in Ubuntu.

Finally, what is the only distro that can LEGALLY play DVDs in the US? Mandriva. With LinDVD available on their paid-support editions they are beyond the illegal libdvdcss. This is not a big deal to you and I downloading our distro, but to a company like Dell which has to respect those laws, it would be suicide to sell computers that couldn't play DVDs. Mandriva might then be the best choice.

See? Lots of options. Ubuntu is a great distro, but its just one of many great distros. I prefer its bretheren Debian along with Fedora and Sabayon/Gentoo over Ubuntu. Not a bash on Ubuntu, it just doesn't fit my needs. Ubuntu is a fad, it will pass. I would wager all my money that in five years Ubuntu will not be the #1 distro. Again, not a knock, but it happens. Someone will write a new distro that will become really popular, and the cycle will start over. Who knows, maybe that distro is out there now waiting to be found. Time will tell.

[dca]

Okay, I'm willing to bet a nickel USD$ that the first Dell released w/ Linux will be either SLED10 or RHEL's new Desktop vers. C'mon, it's a nickel guys.

The reason: they're both commercial distros that cost money to purchase or support, ie: MS Windows. Now before everyone starts yammering about how Ubuntu is free across the board and same vers supported is same vers everyone gets (which is why I use it at home and work) blah blah. Think about it. Michael Dell is jumping back in the game because he needs another yacht... It's all money.

[darrenm]

Right you're on. I still back Ubuntu to be on Dell OEM machines if Dell do actually do it.

My reasoning is that on the "We're Listening" survey I would be surprised if the vast majority of votes for which distro they should use wasn't for Ubuntu.

That depends on if they actually act on the survey though. But why wouldn't they want it to have the best chance of selling the most units to be the best success it can be? The only people who would benefit are Microsoft... hang on a minute...

[maxamillion]

Think Linux == Debian so therefore if manufacturers build and test for Debian they've pretty much got the widest Linux useage covered.

There's no point to starting a new distro from scratch as Debian already has everything in place and hobbyists can base from that. And more importantly is not controlled by any company/person and is composed entirely of free software.

:lolflag:

linux is a kernel ... nothing more, nothing less .... debian != linux and that can be demonstrated by visiting here (http://www.debian.org/ports/) and seeing just how many different kernels debian actually currently runs on (there are also others that are not "officially supported", i.e. - OpenSolaris)

[rsambuca]

darrenm,

Dude, I sincerely apologize for the tone of my earlier posts. After looking back at all of the posts, I can see that they came across sounding a lot more harsh (and a lot more personal) than I had intended.:(

Of course I still disagree with you on many of the issues, but open debate and discussion can only be a good thing.

[darrenm]

darrenm,

Dude, I sincerely apologize for the tone of my earlier posts. After looking back at all of the posts, I can see that they came across sounding a lot more harsh (and a lot more personal) than I had intended.:(

Of course I still disagree with you on many of the issues, but open debate and discussion can only be a good thing.

No worries mate. Agreed.

[aysiu]

While I can understand that some people want to clear up misconceptions about what certain terms mean literally, it's also important to recognize that language isn't always literally or technically precise and that that's okay.

It's a little something we literary types call synecdoche.

From the Random House Dictionary:
–noun Rhetoric.
a figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole or the whole for a part, the special for the general or the general for the special, as in ten sail for ten ships or a Croesus for a rich man. From the American Heritage Dictionary
n. A figure of speech in which a part is used for the whole (as hand for sailor), the whole for a part (as the law for police officer), the specific for the general (as cutthroat for assassin), the general for the specific (as thief for pickpocket), or the material for the thing made from it (as steel for sword). Oftentimes in discussions about distributions, the part (the Linux kernel) is used as a figure of speech to represent the whole (any operating system that uses the Linux kernel).

Thought I'd interject that random thought. Now you can resume your discussion.

[deanlinkous]

dang aysiu, now HOW are we to argue semantics now.....you killed it man! :D

[igknighted]

Right you're on. I still back Ubuntu to be on Dell OEM machines if Dell do actually do it.

My reasoning is that on the "We're Listening" survey I would be surprised if the vast majority of votes for which distro they should use wasn't for Ubuntu.

That depends on if they actually act on the survey though. But why wouldn't they want it to have the best chance of selling the most units to be the best success it can be? The only people who would benefit are Microsoft... hang on a minute...

I voted Suse over Ubuntu on that survey, even though for my purposes I haven't used Suse in a long time (while I do keep a Ubuntu partition). There are many advantages it holds over Ubuntu in an OEM setting (mainly support, but also its designed to impress out of the box and LOOKS very professional and has the best integrated GUI config tools).

[darrenm]

I voted Suse over Ubuntu on that survey, even though for my purposes I haven't used Suse in a long time (while I do keep a Ubuntu partition). There are many advantages it holds over Ubuntu in an OEM setting (mainly support, but also its designed to impress out of the box and LOOKS very professional and has the best integrated GUI config tools).

Its interesting lots of people like Suse. When I tried it I couldn't wait to get it off my computer, perhaps it just didnt like my hardware.

[igknighted]

Its interesting lots of people like Suse. When I tried it I couldn't wait to get it off my computer, perhaps it just didnt like my hardware.

I'm very much the same way, but as a new user tools like Yast and Drak are invaluable, as they have (nearly) the power of the CLI, but in a much more user-friendly fashion. Once you know your way around the CLI, Yast is annoying. Hence, I don't use Suse. I do have SAM on my older box and it uses Mandriva's Drak tools, which are far less intrusive (setting up things like wireless and samba, which can be a pain in the CLI, are made really easy). The CLI is a turn off to most users, not because of its scary nature, but rather it is seen as "old fashioned". When you give new users a task and say "do it w/ CLI" they will do it and whine that there is no gui. I see it on the Ubuntu forums all the time. Now go to Mandriva or Suse, have them run the GUIs for everything (especially synaptic) and these same users that had such a low opinion of the CLI before will start to realize on their own that hey, the CLI is really efficient at times and use it instead.

So yeah, for users like you and I that know our way around linux we see these tools as excessive and bloated... and often they are. But to new users it is preferable than copy/pasting code, so lets give people what they want (or think they want) in an OEM OS. Besides, when you start to get annoyed by the gui's and learn the CLI method, you will probably be comfortable enough to do your own install of a distro you choose. If you aren't comfortable doing this, you probably want the GUIs.

[darrenm]

I see what you're saying.

What GUI's are needed for Ubuntu that aren't there already?

1. X config - Absolute requirement for Feisty + 1 when/if Xorg7.3 ships and there is no xorg.conf
2. ??

[igknighted]

I see what you're saying.

What GUI's are needed for Ubuntu that aren't there already?

1. X config - Absolute requirement for Feisty + 1 when/if Xorg7.3 ships and there is no xorg.conf
2. ??

Well, I mentioned wireless and samba above. Sure theres network-manager in Ubuntu, but i've never gotten it to work right. Theres also a wizard in Mandriva/SAM/PCLOS for:

Setting up VNC or other remote control (for linux or windows)
Setting up TV Cards, Scanners, Mice...
Confuring Xorg.conf and setting up beryl/xgl
Mounting network shares (like samba) or local drives (fstab)
all sorts of network config wizards, like VPN and many more
Firewall configuration
data backup wizard
theres more, but I don't feel like browsing the drak control panel any more... i think you get the idea


Not that any one user would ever need all this stuff, but there are easy GUI ways to do these things in windows and not Ubuntu. It would be beneficial to many users to have a distro that can handle this stuff, because while most people probably wont be doing any VNC, I bet a lot have TV Tuner cards, or ATI video cards and want to use Beryl. These tasks are infinitely easier with the Mandriva controls.

EDIT: Not only is there an abundance of stuff here, they are truely wizards where you mostly just have to keep clicking OK through. Unlike Ubuntu where you get a windows and have to make decisions *gasp*. Not saying this is good or bad, but its an expectation for many users.

[darrenm]

Well, I mentioned wireless and samba above. Sure theres network-manager in Ubuntu, but i've never gotten it to work right.

Network-manager works fabulously for me with one exception. If I want to connect to wired at the same time as Wifi. This hasn't caused me any problems yet but I can see it would.


For Samba theres shares-admin (System > Administration > Shared Folders)

Setting up VNC or other remote control (for linux or windows)

VNC you just change remote login disabled to enabled in System > Administration > Login Window (but theres no actual setup wizard)


Setting up TV Cards, Scanners, Mice...

Yep I remember Mousedrake being a godsend when the OEM I used to work for sent out the wrong mouse with the Mandrake 9.2 PC's we sold. Tech support could tell the customers to press Alt-F2, type mousedrake and use the keyboard to change the mouse to PS2.


Confuring Xorg.conf and setting up beryl/xgl

I noticed theres a screen resolution applet now which helps a little but still needs more.


Mounting network shares (like samba) or local drives (fstab)

Places > Connect to server and local drives should be automatically mounted on boot (or hotplug) with root privileges needed for writing to NTFS (since Feisty). Again no wizards.


all sorts of network config wizards, like VPN and many more

Agreed


Firewall configuration

Firestarter not cut it?


data backup wizard

HUBackup? Or something better than that?


theres more, but I don't feel like browsing the drak control panel any more... i think you get the idea


Not that any one user would ever need all this stuff, but there are easy GUI ways to do these things in windows and not Ubuntu. It would be beneficial to many users to have a distro that can handle this stuff, because while most people probably wont be doing any VNC, I bet a lot have TV Tuner cards, or ATI video cards and want to use Beryl. These tasks are infinitely easier with the Mandriva controls.

EDIT: Not only is there an abundance of stuff here, they are truely wizards where you mostly just have to keep clicking OK through. Unlike Ubuntu where you get a windows and have to make decisions *gasp*. Not saying this is good or bad, but its an expectation for many users.
Funny thing is theres really easy ways to makes GUIs for all this stuff. Take xorg.conf for example. I could write a bash script using Zenity that would edit it and give someone a nice GUI. I can't believe no-one has done it in pyGTK or something yet.

[Eddie Wilson]

It's mainly used in computer programming, where it's used to differentiate between setting the value of a variable and evaluating a boolean expression.

x = 1 + 1

result, set x = to 2

1 == 0

returns the boolean value false. The opposite of == is != (note equal/not equivalent.).

This is the best post in the whole thread.:)
Eddie