[SOLVED] Sarge is out

[Knome_fan]

Who would have thought we would see this day?
First Apple switching to Intel and now Debian releasing Sarge.

As one Debian developer said:
Long, ehm, short live Sarge. :grin:

[meldroc]

Who would have thought we would see this day?
First Apple switching to Intel and now Debian releasing Sarge.

As one Debian developer said:
Long, ehm, short live Sarge. :grin:
Congrats to Debian. Keep in mind that Ubuntu wouldn't be possible without Debian.

[Gtaylor]

This is true :)

Great avatar, Knome_fan.

[poofyhairguy]

Yea for Sarge. Hope that chills down the whole Ubuntu vs. Debian thing.

[benplaut]

Yea for Sarge. Hope that chills down the whole Ubuntu vs. Debian thing.

cheers to that...

keep debian on the servers, and ubuntu on the desktop.

Vuala!

[bored2k]

Yay for sarge. 29 disc Images? Now that's expensive.

[SparkyDawg]

Yay for sarge. 29 disc Images? Now that's expensive.

I'd just use the net install if I were to switch to debian. :-P

[bored2k]

I'd just use the net install if I were to switch to debian. :-P
I like having discs. Not everywhere you go you'll get a fast connection (if any) ;).

[somuchfortheafter]

but would you really want to go to those places?

[bored2k]

but would you really want to go to those places?
Not everyone leaves in a modernized country like yours.

[SparkyDawg]

Not everyone leaves in a modernized country like yours.

I've had 56k until last year. It's not that slow.

[benplaut]

I've had 56k until last year. It's not that slow.

when it's running at 12kbps... yeah, it's slow

[bored2k]

I've had 56k until last year. It's not that slow.
Would you prefer a net install on dialup ? Having to download EVERYTHING each time? I had been using dialup for a while until a little bit more than year. I wouldnt like that.

[SparkyDawg]

Would you prefer a net install on dialup ? Having to download EVERYTHING each time? I had been using dialup for a while until a little bit more than year. I wouldnt like that.

Ha yeah, that would be no fun.

[jerome bettis]

i'm gonna install it right now. after i back everything up. i'll report back how it goes ....

unless i have to download more than one cd .. in which case i'm not gonna bother.

[az]

I think gnome and kde base packages are on cd number one...

[jdodson]

the first install cd has gnome+kde+tons of other software.

i am surprised they could fit as much as they did on one cd.

i am downloading disc one as we speak. 256/256k dsl isnt really speedy.

oh well 4.2 hours to go!:)

[jerome bettis]

ok cool. downloading the first iso via the torrent at +400kb/s right now. it's pretty healty

[bored2k]

ok cool. downloading the first iso via the torrent at +400kb/s right now. it's pretty healty
...
/me wants 1/3 your speed :(

[23meg]

As one Debian developer said:
Long, ehm, short live Sarge. :grin:

lol, nice quote. that made my day..

[skoal]

Well, I haven't used Debian in ages and was just tinkering around with the notion not only 2 days ago. Then I read the release notes on Sarge:

"This release includes a number of up-to-date large software packages, such as [...] XFree86 4.3.0[...]Linux kernel versions 2.4.27 and 2.6.8[...]"

My oh my! The more things change the more things remain the same. Comeon man, that's like Redmond releasing an '05 press statement that directx5.0 on nt4.0 has finally arrived...

God Bless Debian, but they remind me of an old senior shaking a maple stick at a segway as it blows by with careless disregard, "WHY IN MY DAY we had skateboards powered by legs, that's right, LEGS I TELL YA!!!"

\\//_

[Lowe]

I said i wouldn't post on this forum again, but i want to say a few things about the new debian release. (Which you may not like)

There is no way in hell you can use Debian as your desktop computer, unless all you do is browse the web and use gedit. Yes, lot's of work was put into the release and it was a great effort, but when it comes down to it, it still sucks like it did two months ago.

ok so i downloaded the net install, everything seems to be going fine, onto DHCP auto-config and BOOM! I got an error saying something i did not understand it must of been in the debian geek language, what it meant to say is "We cannot find the correct drivers for your network card" so i dive into the #debian irc room on freenode just looking for some help.

Me: Hello, i'm having problems with the new net install, it cannot find a driver for my network card.
SomeDebianUser: What card is it? nFORCE?
Me: Yes, it's the first distro i've had problems with it.
SomeDebianUser: That card fu**ing sucks, go and buy another card.

That wasn't exactly the kind of help i was looking for, it works fine on all the other distro's i've tried why should i go and buy a new network card just to install debian? But i stuck in there with my flame shield up, only for someone to ask what distro i used last, i replied ubuntu. wow what a response, i was getting flamed from everyone just because it worked on ubuntu and not on debian, they were linking to pics of naked guys butts in a circle, very childish if you ask me. Finally i found someone willing to help me, we then talked in private he told me i had to use "modprobe forcedeth" yep right enough, after that the net install went fine.

So it's booting up and what do i get? Errors from xfree, they don't load the nvidia driver for some reason, so i had to use vesa for the time being, so it finally loads up and i'm welcomed by the most dull gnome desktop i have ever seen in my entire time playing with linux distro's(about a year). Now, i load up rythmbox to listen to some music while i download some drivers and edit some files....yeah RIGHT! No sound, so i then run alsaconf and it doesn't even detect my soundcard which is very weird again, because it's also the first time i've had this problem in any distro. I'm getting really tired by this time now so i decide to get a drink and just chill a bit before returning to tackle these very annoying problems. I finally come back only to notice the whole things locked up and is completely unresponsive. SO ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! *grabs his hoary cd's and formats debian*

Debian is one of the oldest distro's and it still cannot do basic things, like having sound and detecting your hardware, ubuntu, mandrake, fedora and almost any other distro i've tried had sound on first boot i cannot believe a distro as old as debian struggling to do BASIC things a computer is meant to do.

That's me finished, i'm tired had a rough night and just finished reinstalling ubuntu. I hope my post doesn't offend anyone here, if it does pm me and i'll edit my post as soon as possible.

Notes:This was what happened in my experience with debian. This does not mean it will be the same result for others, i'm sure there is a lot of happy debian desktop users . It's my opinion and i tried to bring across as best i could without flaming anyone. I'm sorry my spelling and grammar sucks, but nobodys perfect

[kassetra]

Notes:This was what happened in my experience with debian. This does not mean it will be the same result for others, i'm sure there is a lot of happy debian desktop users . It's my opinion and i tried to bring across as best i could without flaming anyone.

It's a shame that a distro trying to be completely free ends up being so limited in it's use to many people.

[GTKpower]

Kernel 2.6.8???

Wow, looks like Debian wants to die.

It took them 3 years to release a basically obsolete kernel.

**shakes head.**

Ubuntu's going to kill this distro. Besides, there's so many problematic Linux distros out there. Most of the ones that are run by like 2 or 3 people need to go, but that's a different issue.

[Lovechild]

could this explain why it's so cold here.. it's June and I swear I'm wearing thick socks, and tons of clothes... did hell freeze over causing me to freeze my danish ass off?

[kvidell]

I downloaded the 80 meg netinstall CD, then compiled my own kernel (2.6.10) then dist-upgarded to whatever "testing" denotes now.

My server is happy as a clam, running fast and smooth and reiser'ing it up like the best of them :)

w00t.
- Kev

[poofyhairguy]

Ubuntu's going to kill this distro.

Ubuntu is going to save Debian. Hoary, Breezy, whatever comes after that, and whatever comes after that will give fixes back to Debian for the Etch release.

[jerome bettis]

Yes, lot's of work was put into the release and it was a great effort, but when it comes down to it, it still sucks like it did two months ago.

agreed! :-|

i'm very very dissappointed here .. i waited 3 years for this?? it still didn't pick up my monitor (windows 3.1 did that!), X wouldn't start (as always) and the kernel-headers for the 686 kernel doesn't exist so i couldn't compile my wireless card. i tried using a different kernel, got the card to compile and then "invalid module format". then i tried recompiling the 2.6.10 kernel and got a compile error. i've compiled this same .bz2 file on ubuntu, gentoo, and suse without issue. then i tried using some old xfree config files i had working before with debian but no dice. we'll try again in 3 more years .. ](*,)


Debian is one of the oldest distro's and it still cannot do basic things, like having sound and detecting your hardware, ubuntu, mandrake, fedora and almost any other distro i've tried had sound on first boot i cannot believe a distro as old as debian struggling to do BASIC things a computer is meant to do.

well put .. it's so strange and just plain sad


That's me finished, i'm tired had a rough night and just finished reinstalling ubuntu.

me too. i thought i wouldn't have to but damn i was way off.

[pdk001]

congratulations! Debian team

[nocturn]

cheers to that...

keep debian on the servers, and ubuntu on the desktop.

Vuala!

Sure, I could install a nice server with Sarge today. But how long will it have to live? I don't want to be running php4 in 2008 and/or miss out on the groupware software that is being developped.

[kvidell]

Sure, I could install a nice server with Sarge today. But how long will it have to live? I don't want to be running php4 in 2008 and/or miss out on the groupware software that is being developped.
I debian'd my server today... I'm already considering going to Fedore or asking my fiance for copies of the Novell/SuSE linux server stuff he got for becoming a certified rep/partner thingie...

It's... it's not good so far. It's not bad... but it just... I feel like I'm walking on eggshells around the system right now and I don't like that.
- Kev

[nocturn]

Ubuntu is going to save Debian. Hoary, Breezy, whatever comes after that, and whatever comes after that will give fixes back to Debian for the Etch release.

LOL, I just figured, by the time we actually see the Etch release notes, there may be a colony on Mars ;-)

You are right though.

[az]

To anyone complaining about Debian and what It cannot do: Become a Debian Developer and improve it or shut up!

Debian is a general-purpose distribution. It does not meet the same needs as Ubuntu. (although, it can) If you do not understand this and continue to insult debian, I will lock this thread.

[GrumpySimon]

This comes two weeks after I switched my desktop machine from Sarge to Ubuntu :) Oh well. Still runs happily server-side.

For those attacking Debian, you've got to understand that it's goal is NOT bleeding edge and shiny graphics. It's aiming for stability and security, and it does that exceedingly well. Debian is the perfect distribs for servers, and for the machines that get shut in a cupboard in the basement for three years.

Edit: Also, does any other distrib. support so many archs as Debian?

Good work Debian, back to work, & lets see Etch soon :)

--Simon

[Gtaylor]

They are also the leading open-source distro for embedded systems. It's a rock solid base for applications where things just need to run indefinitely. We all take what we have with Ubuntu for granted because the aim of this distro is to provide something that everyone can use, mainly for their desktops.

Debian has been a great server platform every time I've had to use it in the past and still is now. I have no interest in running it as a desktop since Ubuntu fills this niche better IMHO, but on the flipside Ubuntu can't shake a stick at the stability and reliability of a properly setup Debian server. This isn't due to bad design, Ubuntu is cutting edge and may contain bugs due to a shorter testing phase, whereas Debian (as you've seen) has a much longer testing/development cycle.

They're good for different things. Running an important server on a tight budget with Ubuntu would be like taking a knife to a gun fight. At the same time, I wouldn't recommend Debian to a new Linux user.

[jobezone]

Some positive things I can remember from the top of my head about Debian: they've packaged almost the entire free software colection in the world; their debconf infrastructure; their modular Debian Installer; their modules-assistant infrastructure; their infrastructure to compile/configure new kernels, etc,etc...

All, or most of these features exist in Ubuntu by default, because it's a Debian system.

[madmonkey]

Hello,
This is my first post here, and I'd like to say something about Debian. I have an old Alpha machine that I have installed just about every distro of Linux and BSD that has an Alpha port for it. None of them can even come close to the stability that Debian provides on that platform, and unlike Red Hat and some other distros, I don't have to worry about Debian abandoning its support for it. As somebody said earlier, Debian is perfect for a server that's going to be locked in the basement for 3 years, and it won't give you any trouble.

For a desktop system, this is not ideal. That's why when I heard about Ubuntu, I wiped my SuSE install and switched. You get a perfect blend of Debian package management and stability with modern packages, and I am very happy to get away from the RPM based distros for good. I am satisfied with Debian on my Alpha server and now I am satisfied with Ubuntu on my desktop.

[Lowe]

To anyone complaining about Debian and what It cannot do: Become a Debian Developer and improve it or shut up!

Debian is a general-purpose distribution. It does not meet the same needs as Ubuntu. (although, it can) If you do not understand this and continue to insult debian, I will lock this thread.

You really are quite childish, it's sad to see someone in this community with an attitude like yours. I was saying my opinion on the debian release, and wow becuase im not saying something positive your going to lock the thread? That just shows your arrogance, we are not insulting debian, we are only saying our opinion on the release. I even said it doesn't meet my needs, but that doesn't mean it wont meet other peoples needs.

[krusbjorn]

You really are quite childish, it's sad to see someone in this community with an attitude like yours. I was saying my opinion on the debian release, and wow becuase im not saying something positive your going to lock the thread? That just shows your arrogance, we are not insulting debian, we are only saying our opinion on the release. I even said it doesn't meet my needs, but that doesn't mean it wont meet other peoples needs.


"There is no way in hell you can use Debian as your desktop computer, unless all you do is browse the web and use gedit. Yes, lot's of work was put into the release and it was a great effort, but when it comes down to it, it still sucks like it did two months ago."

English isnt my primary language, but the above comes across more as an insult than as rough criticism.

I'm sure you didnt mean to start a flame war or tick people off, but i'm getting more and more surprised that people wont express themselves kindly, to avoid misunderstandings like this.

Anyways, grats to the Debian developers!

...Now, how about Duke Nukem Forever?

[Gtaylor]

I ran Debian on my desktop just fine years before Ubuntu came out, FYI. What he means is:

"Debian didn't set up as easily as I had hoped on my hardware nor did everything function as I had hoped, therefore I don't like it."

Just work on that temper, we're all friends here :)

[Lowe]

"There is no way in hell you can use Debian as your desktop computer, unless all you do is browse the web and use gedit. Yes, lot's of work was put into the release and it was a great effort, but when it comes down to it, it still sucks like it did two months ago."

English isnt my primary language, but the above comes across more as an insult than as rough criticism.

I'm sure you didnt mean to start a flame war or tick people off, but i'm getting more and more surprised that people wont express themselves kindly, to avoid misunderstandings like this.

Anyways, grats to the Debian developers!

...Now, how about Duke Nukem Forever?

I also said..

I hope my post doesn't offend anyone here, if it does pm me and i'll edit my post as soon as possible.

Seriously, if i wanted to flame debian i could, but that's not my style nor was it my goal to put people off debian. I was just a bit disapointed.

[Gtaylor]

Just try to keep things from sounding too negative, it's best to encourage fellow open-source projects. We're not competing for money or market share, we're all working together in a joint cause.

[krusbjorn]

I also said..


Seriously, if i wanted to flame debian i could, but that's not my style nor was it my goal to put people off debian. I was just a bit disapointed.

As I said, I'm sure you didnt mean to flame anyone. If we make an effort to sound nice even when we are upset, these little arguments will stop to pop up all around the forums.

[az]

Lowe: More than one person was bashing Debian and I wanted to change the direction. That is why I did not PM you.

let's please move on...

[SolidAndShade]

You can have sound, video, bells and whistles with Debian... I ran it exclusively until three months ago when I switched to Ubuntu. You have to really know how the OS works, though, and be prepared for a lot of package fiddling and source compiling. I never got ALSA working and just used OSS to play sound, and XMMS was my MP3 player of choice. I still can't get MPlayer to work with Ubuntu the way I had it working with Debian. Ubuntu users should understand that Debian's package system and huge software base are two of the key reasons for Ubuntu's flexibility. But Debian still has serious problems, and hopefully Ubuntu will help them improve.

[Lowe]

I take back everything negative i said about debian. I gave it another go last night and with some help from friend i had everything working great within 3 hours, debian is a lot harder to get basic stuff working, but once you have you never need to touch it again. I'm enjoying debian more than ubuntu at the moment, so debian is now the only distro on my harddrive. For the next release all they need to do is improve harddware detection.

[jobezone]

What Debian really needs is a forum just like this one. There is http://www.debianhelp.org, but this forum is a lot more confortable.

[poofyhairguy]

What Debian really needs is a forum just like this one.

It has one:

http://forums.debian.net/

[mark]

To anyone complaining about Debian and what It cannot do: Become a Debian Developer and improve it or shut up!

Debian is a general-purpose distribution. It does not meet the same needs as Ubuntu. (although, it can) If you do not understand this and continue to insult debian, I will lock this thread.

I agree with the comment about becoming a developer. However, I do not agree with the comment about Ubuntu. As a dedicated user of Ubuntu, I will no longer be a member of this site.

Mark

[az]

I agree with the comment about becoming a developer. However, I do not agree with the comment about Ubuntu. As a dedicated user of Ubuntu, I will no longer be a member of this site.

Mark


Would you please tell me what you mean by this?

Debian fulfills many more needs than Ubuntu does. It is a general-purpose distribution. Ubuntu primarily aims to fulfill the needs of desktop users. I do not see what you find offensive.

[skoal]

I'm running 3.1 on an old Maxtor 2 gig'er, and it works great. I've spent quite some time bringing my Debian box into the 21st century, with udev and a 2.6 kernel (for example), but it's running like a well oiled machine now. I salute you Sarge!

\\//_

[Knome_fan]

I will no longer be a member of this site.

Hey, that's my line:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=40612
;-D

Seriously, I don't think the comment was meant to be in any way negative about Ubuntu. At least I can't see it and I hope you reconsider your decision.

Cheers,
Ralph

[poofyhairguy]

As a dedicated user of Ubuntu, I will no longer be a member of this site.

Mark


cool. We need some people to patrol the ruff sea that is the wiki.

[Brunellus]

Would you please tell me what you mean by this?

Debian fulfills many more needs than Ubuntu does. It is a general-purpose distribution. Ubuntu primarily aims to fulfill the needs of desktop users. I do not see what you find offensive.

Your initial response was, essentially, "become a developer or else STFU," which turns off a lot of end-users who are not programmers.

The Ubuntu forums are generally friendlier than most other forums in this regard, because most of the regulars realise that there are plenty of people who use Ubuntu who neither have the skills nor the time to be active developers. I would hate for this community to adopt an almost Debian-esque defensiveness about possible improvements--and that's precisely what your initial response seemed like, both to him, and to other readers.

[poofyhairguy]

The Ubuntu forums are generally friendlier than most other forums in this regard, because most of the regulars realise that there are plenty of people who use Ubuntu who neither have the skills nor the time to be active developers.

The art section is proof to that.


I would hate for this community to adopt an almost Debian-esque defensiveness about possible improvements--and that's precisely what your initial response seemed like, both to him, and to other readers.

Hey, "fix it yourself if you have a problem" is like THE open source motto. It good that people see the truth behind Free software, instead of staying sheltered in this forum.

[Knome_fan]

Hey, "fix it yourself if you have a problem" is like THE open source motto.

Not really. The motto might be, anybody can fix a problem, as the source is open and anyone is free to change it, but it certainly is not, either fix it or shut up.



It good that people see the truth behind Free software, instead of staying sheltered in this forum.
Well, as I said, I don't think it is the truth and I sure don't hope it is, as this would mean that about 99.9% of the population are excluded from free software and I really refuse to believe that this is the idea behind free software.

[poofyhairguy]

Not really. The motto might be, anybody can fix a problem, as the source is open and anyone is free to change it, but it certainly is not, either fix it or shut up.

Ok, maybe I should have said "you can fix it yourself if you have a problem"


Well, as I said, I don't think it is the truth and I sure don't hope it is, as this would mean that about 99.9% of the population are excluded from free software and I really refuse to believe that this is the idea behind free software.


Why? There are lots of things needed in the OSS world other than developers. Artists, bug testers, brainstormers, documentation creators, etc. Most people have something they can offer, something for input. And if they add to the project then the goodwill created from that will give them the opportunity to steer a project how they want ( a little). I am not a developer, and I can't backports a single package but I help come up with packages to backport and test them when they are backported.

In fact, I would say that OSS has enough developers almost (you don't want too many cooks in the kitchen) and not of the rest of the types of helpers.

As far as debian goes, it REALLY needs some new artwork, some good documentation, and some people to hold things together. I bet if you added any of these things, you could get a little say in other parts of Debian. The give and take is how such things work.

Now, if someone wants to just stroll in and make demands of an OSS project without trying to add or improve things (warez people have a good term for this- leeches) they probably won't get any more than a "fix it yourself response." I think that is fair in my own opinion.

[Knome_fan]

I agree with nearly everything you said, just not with the conclusion. ;-D

Of course there are more ways to add to open source than just code. All the things you mentioned are important and are certainly more accessible to most people than writing code.

However, I think there are a few problems with your reasoning.
1. As great as making a new wallpaper for debian is, it certainly won't fix a technical problem the person making the wallpaper has and I doubt that making a wallpaper will give him a great say in technical matters.

2. I don't think anyone can expect others to contribute, if they give away their product as free software. If you give it away as free software, so that people can do with it whatever they want (remember, free as in freedom :-D), people are of course also free to leech.

3. A do something or shut up approach will exclude new users. I think there aren't many new users that instantly get involved into open source projects, most of them probably simply want to try out this thing they have heard so much about. Now if you confront these people with an "either fix it yourself, or shut up" attitude, you will effectively turn away many of these new users. (Note, I don't think that's normally the case here, on the contrary, I especially like the fact that this forum is very newbie friendly and I think we can all agree, that it should stay that way.)

4. I don't think the "fix it or shut up" approach does do justice to free software. Now it may be justified for very small, hobby projects (say someone is writing a piece of software just for fun and releases it so that others can also play around with it), but it certainly isn't justified for projects like debian, ubuntu, etc. These projects are not just simple hobby projects, but set out to deliver a high quality free product, so critisizing them, or complaining about their shortcomings is certainly justified.

[poofyhairguy]

I agree with nearly everything you said, just not with the conclusion. ;-D

Civil Debate is a nice asset.



However, I think there are a few problems with your reasoning.
1. As great as making a new wallpaper for debian is, it certainly won't fix a technical problem the person making the wallpaper has and I doubt that making a wallpaper will give him a great say in technical matters.

Well...maybe...you never know. Someone starts adding to the community then they get weight in the community. If you have a cool wallpaper and you email a developer about a problem instead of being a nameless voice you are "that person who make cool wallpaper." Then they are more inclined to help you. You might not like the fact that priority is given to contributers, but it is the truth of any project.



2. I don't think anyone can expect others to contribute, if they give away their product as free software. If you give it away as free software, so that people can do with it whatever they want (remember, free as in freedom :-D), people are of course also free to leech.

Hey. I totally agree. No one has to contribute. They can use OSS for whatever they want and never give anything back. But if these people start making demands of the project, or ask it to change direction a little for them then they should not be surpised if their pleas are ignored.

Fixing bugs and adding the features YOU want costs time and money. If you aren't willing to give anything back why should anyone spend these resources trying to fix your problem? You are a hole then, the kind of things that sink fragile projects.

Now in some cases this isn't true. Often (heck maybe most) of the time developers actually do change things to favor people that give nothing back. They do this out of a general obligation to their users. But I believe (this might be the line where we actually separate) that this obligation is not greater than the obligation to keep the project on its course/schedule/etc.

Here is the list of order that demands should be fixed.

1. Devs demands first
2. Finacers demand second (Mark)
3. Contributers demand third
4. Leeches demand fourth



3. A do something or shut up approach will exclude new users. I think there aren't many new users that instantly get involved into open source projects, most of them probably simply want to try out this thing they have heard so much about. Now if you confront these people with an "either fix it yourself, or shut up" attitude, you will effectively turn away many of these new users.

Well we CAN say it nicer that that can we? More like " I am sorry you are having this problem. Ubuntu is free software so you are more than welcome to try to fix it yourself (many do, look at howto forum), but unfortunately when it comes to automatic service you get what you pay for. I bet there are others that have the same problems as you, and you are most than welcome to use our resources to find these people and work together to resolve your problem. Have a good day"


There is the truth as sugar coated as it can get. If this turns people away I say "oh well." Ubuntu (and especially Debian) wants to survive, not save the world from itself.



4. I don't think the "fix it or shut up" approach does do justice to free software. Now it may be justified for very small, hobby projects (say someone is writing a piece of software just for fun and releases it so that others can also play around with it), but it certainly isn't justified for projects like debian, ubuntu, etc. These projects are not just simple hobby projects, but set out to deliver a high quality free product, so critisizing them, or complaining about their shortcomings is certainly justified.

You are correct that it will hurt free software if the developers can't take criticism and advice. Luckly in Ubuntu we have channels such as the forum, the wiki and bugzilla to voice these problems. Plus if there is a great value you attach to a solution, you can buy support from the developers. Same way with Debian in many respects (many companies and people will accept money for high quality Debian support).

But if you are trying to say "projects like Debian and Ubuntu are so big and important that they should throw out practicality (by helping out as many leeches as possible) because they owe that to their users" I disagree very much. I have heard this line before from those that try to convert the world to Linux but are dissapointed by its slow progress. For those I say- "if you really care then roll up your sleeves and help, or you are nothing more than a whiny zealot!"

[Knome_fan]

"But if you are trying to say "projects like Debian and Ubuntu are so big and important that they should throw out practicality (by helping out as many leeches as possible) because they owe that to their users" I disagree very much."

Just a short note befor I go to sleep. :-D
No, that's not what I'm trying to say.
I guess my point is, that debian, ubuntu, etc. are projects that can be held and should be held to high standards and that deserve to be held to high standards. After all they set out to deliver not a hobby thingy, but something serious, something people can and should use professionally.

Now that doesn't mean that all debian devs have to immediately drop everything they do, because Knome_fan want feature X and he wants it right now, but it means that serious critizism and complaints if things go wrong are totally justified.

[student]

Not really. The motto might be, anybody can fix a problem, as the source is open and anyone is free to change it, but it certainly is not, either fix it or shut up.
I agree, I'm still new to the world of linux, but now I think the motto is something like :
"The basic's are free, and you are very welcome to add/fix/remove what you want, IF you want."

I myself; I'm f*ing tired of hearing, "can you fix this, what do I do, can you do this,..." and when you try to explain it, you get "I'm not interested in those things."
It's like you want food on the table, but you tell the cook you never want to cook yourself, in fact, you dont even care how he makes your food. It's like you have absolutely NO respect for him.

So my personal motto is: "everything free, but if dont WANT to do anything yourself, then you should pay money...

[skoal]

Man, I'm loving my XFCE in Debian more and more every day now. For some reason my theme works like it should now - probably because of some gtk-engine version mismatch w.r.t. Ubuntu. It is a nice symbiosis between the two. I get to pick what I want from over "here" and throw it back over "there", and vice-a-versa, finding subtle differences between the two distros along the way. Either way, I'm loving it! I for one welcome the return of my long anticipated Debian overlord! Hail Sarge! Hail Ming!

\\//_

[jobezone]

Man, I'm loving my XFCE in Debian more and more every day now. For some reason my theme works like it should now - probably because of some gtk-engine version mismatch w.r.t. Ubuntu. It is a nice symbiosis between the two. I get to pick what I want from over "here" and throw it back over "there", and vice-a-versa, finding subtle differences between the two distros along the way. Either way, I'm loving it! I for one welcome the return of my long anticipated Debian overlord! Hail Sarge! Hail Ming!

\\//_
I'm also another who has gone back to Debian. I still don't know how active or non-active will I become on these forums due to this fact (and if this post is any example, I may pop in from time to time). Still, I miss a forum like this for Debian :) There is http://forums.debian.net , but with a lot less people than here. Come and join the "slow" party, if you're using debian!
BTW, this doesn't mean anything bad about Ubuntu. In fact, my interest in linux in general was again re-peaked due to Ubuntu. So much in fact that I'm thinking to contribute to Debian (to which I've already done a bit, revising the Portuguese translation for stage 1 of the Debian Installer).

[az]

Your initial response was, essentially, "become a developer or else STFU," which turns off a lot of end-users who are not programmers.

The Ubuntu forums are generally friendlier than most other forums in this regard, because most of the regulars realise that there are plenty of people who use Ubuntu who neither have the skills nor the time to be active developers. I would hate for this community to adopt an almost Debian-esque defensiveness about possible improvements--and that's precisely what your initial response seemed like, both to him, and to other readers.

STFU would be against the code of conduct.

Insofar as turning off end-users, well, if I turned off a few users from bashing Debian, I was successful. (I was - the bashing stopped and the thread continues) I do not see how my comments were in any way offensive to any other user. Unless, of course, you take my statements out of context.

The fact that this is not a debian help forum underscores how I can not have offended anyone. No one was asking for help.

I agree that STFU is quite offensive when you are actually discussing the solution to a problem.

Insofar as debian-deffensiveness, anyone who has read my any of my posts knows that I am not an elitist. I am an active free software advocate.

That does not mean that I shy away from point people to bugzilla.ubuntu.com from time to time. That is often the appropriate thing to do. It is healthy for the community and the software.

*** If anyone was offended by my comments here, I am sorry. They were exclusively directed at those who were performing debian-bashing. If you are still unsatisfied, please send me a personal message or contact an Ubuntuforums administrator or other moderator. ***

[kerinin]

what does this mean for ubuntu, being based on debian. is ubuntu a fork of debian or can the sarge stuff be integrated into the next ubuntu release?

[betrayed]

what does this mean for ubuntu, being based on debian. is ubuntu a fork of debian or can the sarge stuff be integrated into the next ubuntu release?
Well there are parts of ubuntu that can be brought into debian and vise versa. And as far as I know they will sync the trees before the breezy release(maybe not I forget where I read that). Myself I am using debian unstable/testing right now. No offense to ubuntu. I feel it is a great distro I just felt a "pure" debian system was more what I needed. I will stick around here and try to help when I can though. The community is friendly and the topics mix between ubuntu and debian well. :)