Uk Ubuntu Mailing List -- Sexist Joke and Code of Conduct

[jenred]

This is a very interesting thread, very specific to Ubuntu Women:

http://mjg59.livejournal.com/

It is particularly interesting that when a woman pointed out such a joke was against the Ubuntu code of conduct -- she was immediately attacked on her personal weblog.

Kudos to Matthew Garrett for documenting the entire scenario (I read via kernel planet).

[zorkerz]

Your right it is an interesting series of events and documented nicely. I think she is definitely in the right in my mind. However that joke i think could have be said from the perspective of either gender and still be equally valid. I guess it was not the best place for that sort of joke.

[Lucifiel]

That's rather interesting, indeed.

Though I'm a woman, I didn't really find the joke insulting. (After all, many jokes are often offensive.)

However, I can understand why Caroline felt it was against the rules of conduct.

[DoctorMO]

In general though it's not a good idea to pick at generalisations. If there was a joke about men being strong yet lubering, foolish thick people who always seem to put their foot in their mouth and can't remember any relations or far flung friends to save their lives I bet most men would be offended and because such jokes arn't a cultural normality more men would speak up about it.

After all when you identify with a social group, it chips away at your soul to have it's status deminished.

[gldvxx]

i was totally offended by the joke. i think that ALL people can be difficult to read and i don't appreciate the discussion of women like there's some kind of boys club. if people want to make those jokes in their social time it's their business (i won't be socializing with them), however in a public email list in a community where women are already marginalized (i mean general tech/linux) is completely insensitive and out of line. what i'm more appalled at is how the situation has been handled by various parties pointing fingers at Caroline as talking smack and slander as if to avoid the key issue. a simple apology will suffice and if the offended party doesn't wish to speak to you, let it go and focus on improving the community so that this sort of thing doesn't happen again.

really is it so hard to say "I'm sorry" with no "but". (anything following "but" pretty much negates the "i'm sorry")

if you are uncertain if a joke is offensive, try replacing "women" with a racial group and see how it goes over. women who are not offended by this type of humor have either internalized sexism or are extremely thick skinned (if you feel offended by this statement then just write me off as a radical feminist).

[zorkerz]

really is it so hard to say "I'm sorry" with no "but". (anything following "but" pretty much negates the "i'm sorry")

Im not sure i agree that a "but" necessarily negates an "im sorry". I do not wish to discuss in context of this situation. I think because caroline was offended and the joke violated the code of conduct then it was inappropriate there is no but. In general terms however I often find myself saying something along the line of i am sorry you were hurt or this offended you it was not the intended purpose but i have a different opinion or i interpret the situation differently.

I think it is possible to be completely and honestly sorry without needing to give in to the situation or bow to the other opinion.

Does this make sense? What do you think?

[DoctorMO]

I think it is possible to be completely and honestly sorry without needing to give in to the situation or bow to the other opinion.

OK first off a well known trait of the male condition is not bowing down and being humble. not only is it a cultural thing but it's also a biological one. which makes it even more important to get humble and let go of the angst.

"I'm sorry I was wrong, I will do anything you wish in order to correct my mistake."

It's not that being arrogant doesn't have it's uses. but for admitting your wrong it's worth deactivating first. after all humble is the best tactic of diplomacy and the first test in making yourself a better person.

[daynah]

OK first off a well known trait of the male condition is not bowing down and being humble. not only is it a cultural thing but it's also a biological one. which makes it even more important to get humble and let go of the angst.

"I'm sorry I was wrong, I will do anything you wish in order to correct my mistake."

It's not that being arrogant doesn't have it's uses. but for admitting your wrong it's worth deactivating first. after all humble is the best tactic of diplomacy and the first test in making yourself a better person.

I would like to point out, that I think we should not sit here in the relative safety of our girl's club and call men arrogant, while talking about how inappropriate it is on other Ubuntu arenas it is to discuss a women's stereotypes. Whether you're a man or a woman.

If you look at evolutionary psychology, it seems to be innate in us to be "right" (or arrogant as you put it)... whether you're male or female. Women just have a different way of showing our arrogance.

That is the fundemental need of all mankind, is to be right. To be right lends us to want to be accepted (if we're accepted, it means we must be doing things right). The only way we can survive whether it be killing animals in the wild, or making a living being a lawyer, is by doing it correctly. If you aren't right, you don't survive. You will break down physically or mentally. For women, the need to be right usually develops more into a social thing, trying to be like everyone else, because that shows you must be doing it correctly.

So we're we're all trying to be right, we're all arrogant, we all don't listen to each other, especially when we're afraid the other is right and we're wrong (we can't bare the thought of ourselves being wrong!). And maybe we should just get over the fact that that whole kindergarden "We're all unique" thing isn't totally true...

We're all the same, no matter what you got in your pants, what side of the spectrum, or what shade of grey, or lack of shade, may be.

[DoctorMO]

Women just have a different way of showing our arrogance.

Agreed,

I'm not saying that all men and all women; it seems to be a biological thing as you point out. I know I fight it every day within myself. My point is that in this instance the male "side" of cultural normality of being crule is wrong and that just accepting your wrong would be better for everyone; mostly the males.

[zorkerz]

I would like to point out, that I think we should not sit here in the relative safety of our girl's club and call men arrogant, while talking about how inappropriate it is on other Ubuntu arenas it is to discuss a women's stereotypes. Whether you're a man or a woman.

Haha this irony did not occur to me.

I find a big difference between ubuntuland where the code of conduct is the law and other places that have their own explicit rules or even non at all. When there is explicit law in a voluntary community it must be followed in order to participate in the community.

It takes great courage and reveals a wise soul when a person can change their opinion and announce it during a discussion. I think that right and wrong are subjective and hence it is possible to both disagree on an issue and be apologetic for the harm and discomfort caused before that disagreement in opinions was discovered.

I digress off topic but I wonder about communities where participation is not voluntary but required. What is the status of laws in a community such as this. What power can anyone really have to enforce laws that imposed rather than chosen and agreed upon.

Sorry I will get my big head out of here and try not to change the line of discussion.

:~)

[tom56]

Warning - male perspective follows...

I personally didn't think the joke was something to create such a fuss over. At the end of the day there is no point in a Code of Conduct if it is invoked so often as to become meaningless. It does more harm than good as overuse helps detractors' arguments that it's "polictical correctness gone mad" (regardless of how wrong they are).

A joke isn't meant to be taken seriously, and they're often meant to cause offence. In fact some of the best jokes hinge on the fact that the person telling it is aware of how ridiculous the stereotype they are using is or that what they are saying is so outrageously wrong (e.g. Madonna's recent paedophile joke, or the joke about Leading Seaman Faye Turney being the one reading the map).

And at the end of the day, it was a crap joke anyway.

[jrusso2]

All men should read this link

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

Techgurl

[gldvxx]

Im not sure i agree that a "but" necessarily negates an "im sorry". I do not wish to discuss in context of this situation. I think because caroline was offended and the joke violated the code of conduct then it was inappropriate there is no but. In general terms however I often find myself saying something along the line of i am sorry you were hurt or this offended you it was not the intended purpose but i have a different opinion or i interpret the situation differently.

I think it is possible to be completely and honestly sorry without needing to give in to the situation or bow to the other opinion.

Does this make sense? What do you think?

i think that if you have to qualify it, it's not really an apology. you aren't apologizing for having an opinion. you're apologizing for the harm that the manner in which you expressed your opinion caused another party. you are validating their perspective. an apology isn't a place for debate or to justify why you did or said what you did. when you do that in the context of an apology it comes off as defensive and/or manipulative.

if you can't validate their perspective, like you think they are just over reacting or maybe just misunderstood the situation, and you abolutely feel that you caused no harm whatsoever via your expression, then you need to get a mediator. (assuming it's a person/group that you want to continue to be involved with)

[gldvxx]

Warning - male perspective follows...

I personally didn't think the joke was something to create such a fuss over. At the end of the day there is no point in a Code of Conduct if it is invoked so often as to become meaningless. It does more harm than good as overuse helps detractors' arguments that it's "polictical correctness gone mad" (regardless of how wrong they are).

i think the issue is more how the situation was handled, not just about the joke. you might want to read this with regards to your "political correctness gone mad" concerns:

http://mjg59.livejournal.com/73035.html

[DoctorMO]

I personally didn't think the joke was something to create such a fuss over.

I'm a man and I don't like the joke, I don't want to see jokes of this nature when I read forums, email lists or any other community. If people like to joke but don't like to respect my feelings in this regard I don't feel it's worth being in any of the same communities; I would ask you to please correct your position or kindly shut up.

I hope you can see now that it's worth creating a fuss because I see something I don't like and I'd rather not just quietly leave and never come back, I value the community and would rather see these people gotten rid of or forced to keep their odd sense of "humour" in check in future.

[tom56]

i think the issue is more how the situation was handled, not just about the joke. you might want to read this with regards to your "political correctness gone mad" concerns:

http://mjg59.livejournal.com/73035.html

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that the Code of Conduct is "political correctness gone mad". I hate that phrase. What I'm saying is that there are people out there who might think that, and if we go around telling people off for every crap joke they tell then they are less likely to take the Code of Conduct seriously.

I'm not trying to say the person who told the joke was in the right, I'm saying that the response was disproportionate. Seems to me the sensible thing to do would have been to warn them that others might find that joke offensive and to point them in the direction of the Code of Conduct, explaining which bit of it they might be in danger of contravening.

Just saying "that's against the Code of Conduct" without explaining what you mean just antagonises people.


I'm a man and I don't like the joke, I don't want to see jokes of this nature when I read forums, email lists or any other community. If people like to joke but don't like to respect my feelings in this regard I don't feel it's worth being in any of the same communities; I would ask you to please correct your position or kindly shut up

I don't like the joke either. But it's not a case of liking the joke or not. If you tell someone they've broken the Code of Conduct and do nothing else, then they're likely to do it again. Explain why it was wrong and they might think twice about posting something of a similar nature next time.

[tom56]

Looking through what followed on the mailing list. This should have been the first reply, with a link to the Code of Conduct. It's reasonable, explains why the joke was wrong and is polite to the original poster. Caroline's response, though she was right, was passive aggresive and very blunt.


It is offensive. The joke's premise is based on the (untrue)
generalisation that all women are unfathomable. This suggests that
every single woman is irrational and behaves in a non-deterministic
way. In my experience, this is most certainly not true of all women,
and indeed a lot of men too share these attributes. It should be very
easy to see that any suggestion that all men are rational and all
women are irrational may cause offence to those at the sharp end of
the joke.

In any case, it wasn't even funny, and was remarkably off topic.

Thanks,
Pete


As an aside, looking through the list it only took 4 or 5 posts before someone said the words "political correctness gone mad". Though I must admit, noone seems to say "I'm not sexist, but..." or "don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are women...". :)

Perhaps we need to have something similar to Godwin's Law whereby the thread ends the moment someone sounds like they're quoting from the Daily Mail verbatim. ;)

[DoctorMO]

As an aside, looking through the list it only took 4 or 5 posts before someone said the words "political correctness gone mad". Though I must admit, noone seems to say "I'm not sexist, but..." or "don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are women...".

Yes but shouldn't people ask why such a stance has been taken, people are so easily antagonised as you say because they believe such jokes are apart of their culture and so feel a right to bring them with them.

The fact that there were people defending such an act at all says volumes about the position of men socially; that in it's self is not acceptable, no where does it say you should disregard the feelings of half the world just for a nob joke.

[tom56]

Yes but shouldn't people ask why such a stance has been taken, people are so easily antagonised as you say because they believe such jokes are apart of their culture and so feel a right to bring them with them.

The fact that there were people defending such an act at all says volumes about the position of men socially; that in it's self is not acceptable, no where does it say you should disregard the feelings of half the world just for a nob joke.

I don't really see where we disagree to be honest. You seem to be repeating what I wrote. When people are out of line, you should tell them so in a calm and polite manner. I personally felt that Caroline's post was not that and that it was not entirely helpful, though I can understand why she did it.

[DoctorMO]

I don't really see where we disagree to be honest. You seem to be repeating what I wrote. When people are out of line, you should tell them so in a calm and polite manner. I personally felt that Caroline's post was not that and that it was not entirely helpful, though I can understand why she did it.

OK.