Advocacy does and don't s .....

[sorin7486]

Hello people...

I have been posting in this other thread:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2314326

About bounties and whether it would be useful to have a bounty system.... everything went fine until someone came in and said, not related to the topic mind you, that linux doesn't work for him... A totally understandable situation because we all have, or had, our share of problems with adopting linux as the only OS on the hard drive. What followed where a series of posts that had nothing to do with the thread, and that where rather aggressive in my opinion...

This whole thing got me thinking: why people do this ? .... why people are so willing to start arguing about political issues ? Don't get me wrong... political issues are important. But we almost all have the same values here so why do people let themselves become aggressive and steer away from the more important, and practical, discussion that they had... You might think I am different but it happens to me too... and well, I think this is a bad thing... It's a bad strategy for advocacy for several reasons:

First of all being aggressive in making your case about linux throws people in a defensive position. What you are telling them is that linux is better and smarter, and what they understand is that you think you are better and smarter because you where able to adopt it and they haven't. I have seen this happen at work and at home with my roommates... I am the only linux user in both places. And these guys get on my case even without me saying anything... They become something like microsoft advocates just to be in opposition ... And what I have realized is that they do it just because I am different :P ... They don't like windows especially because of all the spyware and they don't have the time or the will to try out linux for real... So just to be safe they get on the Windows side with something like... "It's bad but it's the best we've got.. If there would be something better everybody would be using it".

And second, we know linux is the better choice right... I mean, that's why we use it.. Even it's not 100% ok for us.. I mean even if you have a dual boot and use windows to do a few very important things.. You wouldn't keep linux oh your hard drive if you didn't thought it was good.... So why do we let ourselves get thrown off by the slightest argument against what we believe ? We shouldn't care about things like that... If he or she has different opinions from us flaming that person isn't going to change it. Especially on a forum like this where the vast majority wouldn't agree anyway.

Don't get me wrong ... I think the ubuntu community is friendly and has a way better philosophy than most when it comes to advocating and bringing in new people. But there's still some way to go... What I am aiming at is peaceful advocating... "Don't flame, use linux" could be the motto :P.... Maybe we should start a community for the "Peaceful Linux User".. I'm just throwing in some ideas here :).... But here is another one... Everything microsoft needs to do in order to seriously disrupt the open source process is to get some people on line, on the forums and on mailing lists, to start flame wars everywhere possible. Think about it....

OK ... those are my thoughts.. Now I want to see what everybody else thinks... This is a thread about how to go about advocating linux and open source in general. Pleas keep this in mind and don't steer off from the topic.

[sweemeng]

i used to be into linux advocacy. then a few thing happens that make me kinda stop:
1) a friend who use it, annoys me with problem that should not happen, or complaining because he do some wrong
2) i realize that, why bother, if they were to change they will, change already. i mean, they just thinks that formating a pc is normal, they prefer cracked software.
3) when i say i don't use windows they give me a funny look.
4) they use software that rely heavily on microsoft, ie games, visual studio is the only developer tools(that have to the faculty fault), ms office. except firefox, few people use open source software. wine is not something i recommends yet

of course they is exception:
1) some friend go for dual boot, most of them is quite technical themself. which is suitable for their profile. by then there is not many technical people there.
2) some play around with vm, which is still ok. at least they are expose on linux
3) while i don't do alot of advocacy, with the spirit of community, when people do need help on linux, i will help, whether it is installation, or checking in error.

on the other hand, i enjoy the look on their face, when they:
1) say there is virus infection,
"what infection? oh yeah windows"
2) what antivirus software you use
"i don't use antivirus, don't use windows anymore"

[sorin7486]

I totally agree with you ...

Just had at work a couple of times a guy that received some warnings from his antivirus about possible infection... you should of seen his face... lol

[daynah]

"And second, we know linux is the better choice right... I mean, that's why we use it.. Even it's not 100% ok for us.. I mean even if you have a dual boot and use windows to do a few very important things.. You wouldn't keep linux oh your hard drive if you didn't thought it was good.... So why do we let ourselves get thrown off by the slightest argument against what we believe ? We shouldn't care about things like that... If he or she has different opinions from us flaming that person isn't going to change it. Especially on a forum like this where the vast majority wouldn't agree anyway."

In a social psych class I was in, (I'm sure you guys are tired of hearing of this class, I loved it), my teacher actually anylzed the Linux and Mac community and why we so vigorously try to converty people. I think my teacher uses Windows and a Mac.

This is just one of the processes, and there are obviously many and there are going to be different ones for different people, but when you invest a lot into a product, you kind of have to "prove" to yourself and others that it's the right product. Say you bought a very expensive Ford. Every car has it's faults, and after a few weeks, you're starting to notice them. But you don't want to, you're hurting from that bill. So you start putting down Chevy, and put that little sticker of the kid peeing of a Chevy on the back of your car. You start bragging and heehawing about how great your car is and how awful Chevys are. It's a mechanism for making yourself feel better about how much money you put down on something that is never going to be perfect (nothing in life is going to be perfect, everything will have it's faults, life is suffering, get over it, find enlightenment).

To a linux user, we haven't put down money, but we're intentionally put social pressure on us. We've caused ourselves to have to think about the hardware we buy (uhuhuuuh, don't even touch that ATI...). We have to doublethink saving our files in Open Office 'cause you don't wanna bring that .odt file to the school Windows Computer to print after that long walk, I've done it many a time. We've caused people around us to consider us rebels, some people consider us attention getters. You have simply forced yourself, in a public way, to be different, and people who are different get funny looks, and part of being human is to not like getting funny looks (I don't care how much you say you don't care about what people think of you, you do. Be truthful with yourself, and maybe you'll be able to overcome such things)

So what do you do now that everyone sees you as different, ie weird? Well, you knew linux was better that windows, but now that you've used it for a few weeks, it does have it's faults... But you can't go back, everyone else get to say they were right. Besides, you really ARE happy you don't have the viruses, just not happy your super dooper ATI card doesn't do squat. So you rationalize all the social investment you've put into your new operating system. You tell people how much better it is (if only they understood..), you tell people how awful Windows is.

It's natural to do such things. Just watch yourself when you act in such a manner so you don't get too verbally violent and scare people, and also don't get frustrated with people who do act in this way.

[sweemeng]

you're partly right on the car analogy. but it is not always this way. it is really people dependent. some might know how to handle that ford.

same thing with linux. something wouldn't work, you have to fix it. take some effort to do it. you might think it is worth it. because of practical reason, cost, the tools for job. or maybe because after all the effort, the system work very well, hardly crash, no viruses, you don't strictly need to reboot, when install software. sometime, it is that good, not because we need to brag to make our self feels better

and you don't noticed, the thing you put your self into. hardware nowadays work very well, and you don't even need driver. you might accidentally save file as odt, i did that too, that's why save some portable apps in pendrive. printers and web cam can be a pain, but it is getting better everyday. chances is, it works when i doesn't months ago.

[sorin7486]

daynah ...

What you speak of sounds like denial to me... and I agree there are linux users that do that... But it's not the only cause ... or the biggest cause.... I mean I for one don't expect wanders from linux.. That's part of the reason why I am so amazed each time there's an ubuntu release at the wave of new features ....

Another reason can be that if you are exited about something you expect others to want to hear about it and share the excitement... And the less they do.. the more you feel the need catch their attention...

But what makes us tick isn't the greatest concern for me.. I am more interested of why people react the way they do ... and whether it is good or bad ....

[Lord Illidan]

I was, and still am incredibly excited when new features and new distros come out, because:

1. This is all available to me for free. Yes, volunteers and corporations are releasing this wonderful software for free, which is in many cases better than the original.

2. If I want to develop on them, I can because of the GPL. So I can see what makes them tick.

3. It was a challenge at the time to get new things working..now it isn't, of course but the excitement everytime I try a new distro is still there.

and more...

So I was quite an advocate at first..but then I stopped.
Why?


Most people don't want to change. They are happy with Windows and how it works. If I were to force them to change, they'd have to relearn everything. And they can't play their games.
Some thought that I thought that I was superior because I used Linux.
I also used to put them off inadvertently. An example:
Me: I spent a whole afternoon compiling this sounddriver...man, it's awesome..
My friend : WTF? I just press a button...your Linux sucks..So I now advocate only when there is a problem. When I see that a windows guy has a problem, I step in and see if Linux can help him out. And I don't talk about Linux all the time, neither....then I find that people start asking me more seriously about it.

With regards to being defensive....I guess that it is because we feel closer to Linux than we used to feel with Windows. Linux is developed by the community, not by the big corporation...as in, Torvalds, Stallman, Miguel De Icaza, Mark, they are just people like us. Thus we feel an urge to defend our interests.

That said, I am sure flamewars can be avoided if both sides calmed down a little bit.

[daynah]

Sorin, Denial is when there is something wrong and you refuse to admit it. Rationalizing is when you know there's something wrong, and you're working hard to show that everything else makes up for it.

Denial wouldbe if a girl, by all reality, had a husband who rarely let her leave the house, did not allow her to go to college, and she says, "That's just how he shows his love."

Rationalizing would be that same relationship if she said, "But he gives me everything I need, I don't need to go out of the house." That's not healthy rationalization, though. -_-' I'm bad with examples.

---

Denial would be if we sat here and said, "We have every driver we need."

Unhealthy rationalization would be, "Yeah, we don't have every driver we need, but we don't even have any viruses, so Linux is great how it is."

Healthy rationalization is, "Yeah, we don't have every driver we need, so that's why we're working towards fixing that. Besides, we don't have any viruses."

I think Ubuntu is pretty healthy -as a community-. Red Hat is a little more... vicarious with its attempts to put down Windows and Noobs, I found, when I tried it, but they're still trying to better themselves.

[Trebuchet]

Speaking as a guy still using Windows but interested in Linux, I'll tell you one thing that annoys the heck out of me from some aggressive Linux users: Nobody likes being told they're "stupid" for not using Linux and/or for using Windows. Linux has lots to recommend it, but telling people they're wrong is simply going to make them people dig in their heels. People thinking about bashing Windows should first ask themselves if their goal is to spread Linux or score points against Windows.

Emphasize the many positives of Linux; stay quiet about the negatives of Windows, and let people draw their own conclusions. If Linux really is better for them, they'll come to the right answer eventually and will be happier for finding it themselves. If it's not, then at least they won't have negative feelings about Linux or its users when a friend asks them about it.

I don't see this kind of attitude much in the Ubuntu forums, but other distros are not always so moderate.

[Lord Illidan]

Speaking as a guy still using Windows but interested in Linux, I'll tell you one thing that annoys the heck out of me from some aggressive Linux users: Nobody likes being told they're "stupid" for not using Linux and/or for using Windows. Linux has lots to recommend it, but telling people they're wrong is simply going to make them people dig in their heels. People thinking about bashing Windows should first ask themselves if their goal is to spread Linux or score points against Windows.

Emphasize the many positives of Linux; stay quiet about the negatives of Windows, and let people draw their own conclusions. If Linux really is better for them, they'll come to the right answer eventually and will be happier for finding it themselves. If it's not, then at least they won't have negative feelings about Linux or its users when a friend asks them about it.

I don't see this kind of attitude much in the Ubuntu forums, but other distros are not always so moderate.

I agree. Criticise the other OS all you want, but don't criticise it's users. Sadly, this attitude is all too prevalent on Digg, for example..can't do anything about it.

[aysiu]

First of all being aggressive in making your case about linux throws people in a defensive position. What you are telling them is that linux is better and smarter, and what they understand is that you think you are better and smarter because you where able to adopt it and they haven't. I have seen this happen at work and at home with my roommates... I am the only linux user in both places. And these guys get on my case even without me saying anything... They become something like microsoft advocates just to be in opposition ... And what I have realized is that they do it just because I am different :P ... They don't like windows especially because of all the spyware and they don't have the time or the will to try out linux for real... So just to be safe they get on the Windows side with something like... "It's bad but it's the best we've got.. If there would be something better everybody would be using it". While I'll concede there are those who are a little too aggressive in advocating Linux, I think most of the time, what you're describing is the converse of what happens.

Usually, it's some crazy Windows advocate who comes on the forum slamming Linux and overly pushing how great Windows is--and the so-called Linux "advocates" are the ones being put on the defensive.

Just wanted to throw out at least one counter-opinion. I've seen it happen many times in the Linux Desktop Readiness thread.

[Trebuchet]

I agree. Criticise the other OS all you want, but don't criticise it's users. Sadly, this attitude is all too prevalent on Digg, for example..can't do anything about it.Even worse, many Linux advocates inadvertently word their criticisms of Windows into a backhanded slap at Windows users. "You'd have to be an idiot to use Windows!" is not going to make many converts.

As the old saying goes, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I decided I'd use Ubuntu Linux after lurking at several other distros' websites and saw how much friendlier and more helpful the people here are. Some of the others are outright hostile to noobs or Windows users.

[Trebuchet]

While I'll concede there are those who are a little too aggressive in advocating Linux, I think most of the time, what you're describing is the converse of what happens.

Usually, it's some crazy Windows advocate who comes on the forum slamming Linux and overly pushing how great Windows is--and the so-called Linux "advocates" are the ones being put on the defensive.

Just wanted to throw out at least one counter-opinion. I've seen it happen many times in the Linux Desktop Readiness thread.Oh, they're out there all right. (I sincerely hope I haven't come across as one of them!) While I'm pretty happy with XP, Vista has little appeal at the moment and Ubuntu is obviously going places. Were it not for interest in a few PC games, I could happily switch to Ubuntu right now.

[Lord Illidan]

While I'll concede there are those who are a little too aggressive in advocating Linux, I think most of the time, what you're describing is the converse of what happens.

Usually, it's some crazy Windows advocate who comes on the forum slamming Linux and overly pushing how great Windows is--and the so-called Linux "advocates" are the ones being put on the defensive.

Just wanted to throw out at least one counter-opinion. I've seen it happen many times in the Linux Desktop Readiness thread.

Aysiu, I think it is also a case of overhype. We linux advocates sometimes tend to make Linux sound like a solution to all your problems...because if a problem does crop up, we already know how to deal with it...

So when the windows user sees that it's not working, he's going to berate it as a matter of course....thinking it is some kind of snake oil.

[aysiu]

What worries me is not the bashing of Windows, actually; it's the overselling of Linux.

I get annoyed whenever I see another thread or webpage about "Linux is great! Linux can do everything Windows can do! Linux will solve all your problems! Linux is easy as pie."

Be honest with people about what problems they could encounter migrating. Be honest with them about what Linux is better at and what areas Linux still has to improve in.

When I went to study abroad for a semester in college, the orientation didn't say, "You will automatically love your foreign country the first hour you set foot in it. It will have everything you had in America, and in exactly the same form as well."

About as much advocating I'll do is this:
Is Ubuntu for You? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)

[Lord Illidan]

I agree with you 100%!