Feedback on Linux: Whines

[bitfoo]

Picked up this post off of digg, thought some of you might be interested in. Basically it's a general list of complaints against Linux from the general public. Not really intended to be flame material, but more of some things to think about.

http://robitaille.wordpress.com/2007/03/10/whats-your-linux-whine/

Some of the ones I picked up on were and have been frustrated by before:

USB Headphone support
Lack of centralized or poor sound control (futzing around with alsa etc)
HD support
Lack of integration (ie, logged in via kerberos, why don't apps pick up that information?)
No decent Visio alternative (making your own stencils is painful)
General sense of having to use applications instead of Getting Things Done.

So? What are your thoughts? I personally love me some Ubuntu and appreciate the free and hard work a lot of people have put into this distribution and Linux as a whole. Do you think any of these commentators make good points?

:popcorn:

[DoctorMO]

USB Headphone support

USB sound devices _ARE_ suppored, I even use a usb headset.


Lack of centralized or poor sound control (futzing around with alsa etc)

Only in the gui, and this is getting better; besides a gui improvement is one of the easiest starter projects for a new programmer.


HD support

Linux has supported Hard drives for ages,


No decent Visio alternative (making your own stencils is painful)

Dia is dia, but then there are alternatives you just have to look for them and in some cases pay for them.


General sense of having to use applications instead of Getting Things Done.

This doesn't even make sense.

*yawn* Another know nothing complaint.

[SishGupta]

@ doctor MO
HD support is high def
Please don't be so critical. There was a Mac whines blog post too.
By airing out grievances people can learn about solutions to their problems and illustrate problems that actually do need solving.

While there are visio alts, there are no decent ones. I have to keep my windows install to effectively design systems and networks unfortunately.

My main whine is word processing. I personally think that open office and abi word are poor word processors.
I can't stand using tables or bullets in either app. Even google docs handles bullets better than OO.o and abiword.

[DoctorMO]

While there are visio alts, there are no decent ones. I have to keep my windows install to effectively design systems and networks unfortunately.

Why not make one? this isn't a free lunch where the cooks must make you what you wish.

[SishGupta]

Why not make one? this isn't a free lunch where the cooks must make you what you wish.

I am not sure what bridge you live under but I find that that response is a cop-out used by trolls and I don't care for it, especially not on these forums. The response is something I would expect from a Digg user, not a member of this community.

As much as I would love to, as I feel that it would be incredibly fun and rewarding, not all of us have the time or technical knowhow (or the time to gain the technical knowledge) to create a piece of software each time a suitable piece doesn't exist.

Despite this I actually AM developing my own blog software in php and mysql (because I felt nothing met my needs), in addition to attending full time university and participating in the co-operative education option.

Thats two incredibly condescending posts in a row from you. You would do well to have more understanding and patience with people. At a minimum you would not look like an *******.

[PatrickMay16]

Seems like Doctormo is very touchy and can't bear to see anything even slightly critical of linux. Just ignore him.

Anyway, perhaps linux could do with a good video editor program, which professionals could use.
One day, I might hire a bunch of programmers, and gather some professionals who work with editing video in their everyday life, and together we'd create an incredible video editor (which would be released under either GPL or LGPL).

[cowlip]

What's wrong with Cinelerra-CV or Kino? I don't personally use them but I've heard good things.

[PatrickMay16]

What's wrong with Cinelerra-CV or Kino? I don't personally use them but I've heard good things.

I hadn't heard much about them, and I hadn't tried them out. So I can't say much about them. But I don't doubt that they're good.

[Choad]

my whine with linux (or gnome rather) is nautilus.

is there a bloatier program in existence?

[DoctorMO]

Seems like Doctormo is very touchy and can't bear to see anything even slightly critical of linux. Just ignore him.

Ah no you mistake my distaste for these users who whine on about their problems as some kind of bias. linux has many problems the biggest one being it's users expectations.

Besides when did any of these people really help out?

[Choad]

Ah no you mistake my distaste for these users who whine on about their problems as some kind of bias. linux has many problems the biggest one being it's users expectations.

Besides when did any of these people really help out?
expecting users of linux to have the skills and free time to write foss software is stupid and elitest. especially when this particular linux distro is aimed at "normal" people with perhaps even less than average technical abilities.

no one said "someone must make a visio clone", all that was said was that their wasnt a suitable alternative for him, and thats why he needed windows still

[DoctorMO]

expecting users of linux to have the skills and free time to write foss software is stupid and elitest. especially when this particular linux distro is aimed at "normal" people with perhaps even less than average technical abilities.

They seem to have an abundant amount of time to complain though. and while they like to publicly denounce the entire platform based on a single application you won't catch them reporting a feature request that has been given even five minutes of thought to the developers in the right place; At least point a link to all the times you've attempted to get feature x, y and y into a project that was similar in functionality; from this I don't even know what is wrong with any of the meta drawing applications, a wholy useless situation for a developer to read; one that is more likely to put further advances off than to encourage them.

And while you see I don't mind people criticising, good for the community. I do mind people being totaly out of proportion and completely useless. and If I may beg the pardon of other community members find it in my right to criticise this user failure.


no one said "someone must make a visio clone", all that was said was that their wasnt a suitable alternative for him, and thats why he needed windows still

Why should I care if he needs windows? that is up to him what the right tool for the job is certainly. but in what use does it help anyone?

[Carrots171]

USB Headphone support
No decent Visio alternative (making your own stencils is painful)
The same could be said about a lot of hardware and software. Linux simply has less hardware/software support since it's less popular. That's something we'll have to live with for the time being.

Lack of centralized or poor sound control (futzing around with alsa etc)
I'd have to agree with that. Dealing with Linux sound can be very annoying. EDIT: There's a spec in Launchpad addressing this problem that can be found here (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cleanup-audio-jumble). Right now it's still in the "discussion" phase, but perhaps someone could contribute to it.

Lack of integration (ie, logged in via kerberos, why don't apps pick up that information?)
I'd have to say there are some things that don't feel integrated (e.g. KDE apps running on GNOME), but it doesn't annoy me all that much.

General sense of having to use applications instead of Getting Things Done.
I don't really know what this is supposed to mean; don't you use applications to get stuff done?

[Choad]

They seem to have an abundant amount of time to complain though. and while they like to publicly denounce the entire platform based on a single application you won't catch them reporting a feature request that has been given even five minutes of thought to the developers in the right place; At least point a link to all the times you've attempted to get feature x, y and y into a project that was similar in functionality; from this I don't even know what is wrong with any of the meta drawing applications, a wholy useless situation for a developer to read; one that is more likely to put further advances off than to encourage them.

And while you see I don't mind people criticising, good for the community. I do mind people being totaly out of proportion and completely useless. and If I may beg the pardon of other community members find it in my right to criticise this user failure.



Why should I care if he needs windows? that is up to him what the right tool for the job is certainly. but in what use does it help anyone?
people can say what they like pretty much. well they can in these forums anyway, as long as they're polite. perhaps you are using the wrong distro if you dont want to be burdened with all the newbies.

and forgive me for not bookmarking every post i have made requesting a feature, or feeling motivated to search for them just to proove a point to you.

you mind *people* being totally out of proportion and useless eh? damn midgits... they just cant code fast enough with those tiny hands

as to the last comment, i was merely replying to your "outrage" that someone had requested a visio clone be produced, when no one had asked such a thing.

[DoctorMO]

people can say what they like pretty much. well they can in these forums anyway, as long as they're polite. perhaps you are using the wrong distro if you dont want to be burdened with all the newbies.

Newbies are good, they can give valuable insight into bugs and user-ability blocks. besides my whole reason for programming is to serve users including new users.


and forgive me for not bookmarking every post i have made requesting a feature, or feeling motivated to search for them just to proove a point to you.

You don't have to prove anything to me, so far you've not pointed out rather vaguely about problems and demanded volunteers do your bidding to fix. it's a lack of respect for how this software is produced that bothers me; these whiners don't seem to understand that real people sit behind all that code.


as to the last comment, i was merely replying to your "outrage" that someone had requested a visio clone be produced, when no one had asked such a thing.

A misunderstanding, I didn't assume a visio clone had been asked for.

[beefcurry]

USB Headphones are a Pain to get working as not all sound is directed to it. Needs a centeralized sound control as stated in post 1!

and more hardware drivers.

[bonzodog]

I just came across Daniel Robitailles Blog (He's an Ubuntu developer AFAIK), asking people what their biggest whines are;

http://robitaille.wordpress.com/2007/03/10/whats-your-linux-whine/

He also posted to Digg.com;

http://digg.com/linux_unix/What_s_your_Linux_Whine

Some of the comments coming back are valid, interesting points, although digg has quite a few kids making purile immature comments.

Thoughts people?

What's your Linux Whine?

[Brunellus]

Potentially valid question. Prediction: will degenerate into flames and counterflames faster than a torchlight rally at an oil refinery.

[tbroderick]

Already discussed;

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=383177

[Somenoob]

A lot of the complaints are just about some praticular application or system, having little if no relevance to Linux/OSS as a whole.

I would not say that Windows is poor just because IE is the default browser. That's just simply unfair.

[bonzodog]

I didn't spot the other thread, had a brief look through the index in the cafe couldn't see it. Sorry.
Please merge this. Thanks.

[picpak]

I posted mine at Digg:


Sound support. ALSA, OSS, ARTS, ESD...all of these complicate something that should be sooo simple. Programs are starting to use ALSA as the standard, but there's still the odd OSS app (eg, Audacity) that gets used.

So here you are mixing ALSA and OSS apps together, error messages flying right at you. Something like Arch Linux's soundmixer helps, if you don't mind the noticable dip in quality dmix makes.

And then what if I want to record streaming audio from Opera? Why can't I use Audacity? Why do I have to use vsound and settle with a crappy low-quality MP3? Recording streaming audio with Audacity in Windows creates much better results.

It mostly boils down to that, and printer support. KDE has the most cumbersome printer wizard I've ever seen, and even when I get the printer set up in Gnome I have to use Windows to add a printer cartridge. That and Gaim's lack of mic and webcam support, but that's easier to deal with than these.

[prizrak]

I posted mine on his blog but I guess I'll post it here too

1) Bluetooth - while I finally got it to work I have noticed that there is lack of good UI for it. There is a CLI utility that seems to have the functionality but the options seem very foreign and like something that only people well versed with BT would understand.

2) Tablets - wacom-tools is not installed when tablet is detected, xorg.conf is already setup it just needs the driver (actually been a bug on launchpad for a while). Again no good UI for calibrating the tablet and setting other options. There is again a CLI utility that requires quite a bit of knowledge.

3) Bug reports turn around time - I made a couple of bug reports with fairly simple resolutions (one just requires compiling an existing module into the kernel) and despite two Herd releases since they been confirmed that module still has to be installed manually.

4) Compiz opens windows outside of the screen sometimes. If it’s going to be part of ubuntu-desktop it better be flawless (at least not open windows outside of screen). Again lacks a good UI, the only way to set settings is through gconf

Also one thing I didn't mention for #3, one bug depends on the other. First bug is lack of hotkey support for Acer laptops. Second bug is Bluetooth not working. The reason it's not working is because it's set to off by default. To get it to work you need the acerhk module (one that turns on hotkeys) and map the command to the bluetooth key.

[Mateo]

PDA support isn't that good.

Grub has to be set up (for me at least).

Fsck running when I don't ask it to.

[aysiu]

I didn't spot the other thread, had a brief look through the index in the cafe couldn't see it. Sorry.
Please merge this. Thanks.


Already discussed;

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=383177 Merged.

[prizrak]

PDA support isn't that good.

Grub has to be set up (for me at least).

Fsck running when I don't ask it to.

1) I think it's gonna get better when Bluetooth becomes more widely available as it can just be used as a standard interphase between PDA's and PC's
2) That just sux, you have special options or something?
3) I'm sure there is some option that can be changed to stop it from running.

[Lord Illidan]

My whines:

1. Hardware support especially wifi : I hate having to check every feature of the hardware before I buy it to make sure it works, and I hate it when people buy something which doesn't work with Linux and blame Linux....so this whine should really be directed at the driver manufacturers.

2. GNOME oversimplification. Sometimes they overdo it. A nice, clean desktop, yes...my main desktop, but why oh why do they have to simplify everything?

3. Lack of integration...this is a problem.

About the comment regarding how to use applications, it is valid. Many applications in Linux are so different from their windows counterparts, that you spend more time learning than actually producing.

[Oki]

You get so daxx thankfully and there is no one to say thank you to!:KS

[Belyel]

My whine is that I spend way too much time customizing non-essential stuff than being productive. I couldn't tweak this way in windows without seriously breaking stuff, so I guess I have to over-do it now.

A specific whine about Ubuntu is that it attracts supernew users (myself included, don't take this as flame bait), who end up on the forums and ask the same questions thousands of times without consulting the wiki or the search function. I'm happy to answer a question once, twice, or five times, but after that, I begin to feel the frustration of a lot of you folks who have been on here awhile. That said, I love being able to show people the forums and tell them that any question that they will ever have with Ubuntu will be answered right here :).

[Lord Illidan]

My whine is that I spend way too much time customizing non-essential stuff than being productive. I couldn't tweak this way in windows without seriously breaking stuff, so I guess I have to over-do it now.

A specific whine about Ubuntu is that it attracts supernew users (myself included, don't take this as flame bait), who end up on the forums and ask the same questions thousands of times without consulting the wiki or the search function. I'm happy to answer a question once, twice, or five times, but after that, I begin to feel the frustration of a lot of you folks who have been on here awhile. That said, I love being able to show people the forums and tell them that any question that they will ever have with Ubuntu will be answered right here :).

That's a whine about the users, not about the distro :) Personally, I am fedup too...but they just don't care :)

[Belyel]

^^ LOL, yeah, I guess techincally. However, I've used Suse and dabbled with Mandriva and their forums are a little more... technical and less newb friendly. NOT that I"m complaining. If I'd had to wade through that when I first started ubuntu, I probably wouldn't be here today.

OK, a legit one about linux: I know this goes very deep between the different desktop managers, but I would like a little better integration between KDE and Gnome. I use Gnome, but there are a few, or even several, KDE apps that just work better for me than their Gnome counterparts. ONe of those is the Palm software. OK in gnome, good in KDE. It might be sacreligious to suggest it, but maybe they could play better together? I'd rather not have to install the entire KDenvironment to use three applications.

[prizrak]

^^ LOL, yeah, I guess techincally. However, I've used Suse and dabbled with Mandriva and their forums are a little more... technical and less newb friendly. NOT that I"m complaining. If I'd had to wade through that when I first started ubuntu, I probably wouldn't be here today.

OK, a legit one about linux: I know this goes very deep between the different desktop managers, but I would like a little better integration between KDE and Gnome. I use Gnome, but there are a few, or even several, KDE apps that just work better for me than their Gnome counterparts. ONe of those is the Palm software. OK in gnome, good in KDE. It might be sacreligious to suggest it, but maybe they could play better together? I'd rather not have to install the entire KDenvironment to use three applications.

Doubt it would ever change. Gnome is GTK and KDE if Qt they are just way too different, It's like Java and VB both look roughly the same but you have to install a whole framework to use it.

[DoctorMO]

A specific whine about Ubuntu is that it attracts supernew users (myself included, don't take this as flame bait), who end up on the forums and ask the same questions thousands of times without consulting the wiki or the search function. I'm happy to answer a question once, twice, or five times, but after that, I begin to feel the frustration of a lot of you folks who have been on here awhile. That said, I love being able to show people the forums and tell them that any question that they will ever have with Ubuntu will be answered right here

The easy solution is to add a 'What the hell' tool which understands the language you use and either by speech recognition or typed queries gives you a relevant constructed response. this monster would also read all new posts on the forums and construct answers to problems by understanding the content... give it 130 years.

[Kat of Zion]

Well Im going to resurrect some information in a closed Edgy Eft subject but it is possible that your sound card and OSS drivers for edgy dont play nice.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=279971&highlight=audacity+whine
(page 3, last post)