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Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 02:13 AM
To whom it may concern:

My name is Adam Posey, I'm a resident of Elkins, West Virginia and a GNU/Linux user. I do not run a server nor I do not own a business. What I do have is considerable influence over the buying decisions of other people around me because I am knowledgeable in technology. I have grown very weary of the current state of Linux for the home user. If you're adamant about continuing to ignore this entire demographic then obviously the rest of this letter does not concern you. If you would like to hear my opinions, my needs, my wants and my pleas- then please continue reading.


This is a portion of an email I sent to Red Hat, Canonical, and Novell. It's been BCC'ed to my blog ( http://www.opinunix.blogspot.com (http://www.opinunix.blogspot.com) for those interested). I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this post. As always, this is my rant, FLAME ON.

hardyn
March 12th, 2007, 02:30 AM
Nice! I think you have it spot on... I think there needs to be more emphasis on free-libre, I would be happy to pay a modest fee for a 'bomber' desktoped linux distro, esp if it gets the updates and harware compatibility rolling a little faster. To counter my argument... i know that free-beer linux is a large attractant to many people...

Your whole blog looks pretty good... i will give the whole thing a read when i get a few more moments....

IYY
March 12th, 2007, 02:35 AM
It's a good letter, well worded, and I do hope that it will have some effect. However, I don't think you should count on it. You see, the home-user market is not as big as you think it is when it comes to Free software. And even if conversions on a mass scale are successful, these users won't be paying much money.

Businesses, on the other hand, pay a lot of money for installation and support.

Dylnuge
March 12th, 2007, 02:40 AM
I have to disagree on security, since Linux is very secure when compared to Windows or Mac without protection.

I have started a small company which intends to educate people on their choices by extending Linux as an option. I have started with a thing around my school I like to call the "Linux Challenge." Anyone who tries Linux for a week on their computer and writes something about the experiance will get a small prize.

SishGupta
March 12th, 2007, 02:42 AM
You wrote a lot and said very little IMO.


A common trend I found amongst other things is that people aren't scared to learn something new, but they ARE scared of losing what they have.
I am generalizing here but people HATE change. People really don't like learning something new, and most don't unless they have to.
Most home users won't even consider that they might lose a device since they just assume that everything should already work. When people find that something doesn't work on something different they are immediately turned off by it.
This is not the fault of any distro but the fault of the manufactures of hardware.


A lot of the people I polled were scared to put their real name on their computer. Security Applications are another great service you could provide for the user, make them feel comfortable.
The only thing distros need that they don't already have pre-installed (at least in Ubuntu's case), is a firewall.
The rest should just be up to advertising the fact that linux IS secure if updated regularly. The service IS provided and you know it because you get your Ubuntu security updates.


This does not mean basic applications, this means all around applications. They want to see some new and fun stuff coming down the pipes to them.
What does this even mean? Games? 95% of all apps I need are already installed by Feisty. Everything else I don't want on my installation CD because I want it to just be ONE CD not 6 like Mandriva or SUSE. I DON'T want a DVD either.
The other 5% of applications that I want are personal to me and are readily available in repositories.


Currently the only distribution targeting us as users is Linspire, which is just an awful excuse for a distribution.
What about Ubuntu?! That is THE home user distro.


I think you are nuts, man. It's like you went back in time, wrote the letter in '97 and then posted it here so you can show us how your open letter changed gnu/linux.
I definitely would not have sent that letter out, it looks like you have been living under a rock. I know a lot of the things you mentioned are not 100% up to par, but it takes time, and if you ask me, things are 98% up to par. Linux is SO close to hitting critical mass for the Desktop. I am very excited for the next 5 years.

Maybe I'm just wearing penguin-rose coloured glasses.

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 02:45 AM
I have to disagree on security, since Linux is very secure when compared to Windows or Mac without protection.

I have started a small company which intends to educate people on their choices by extending Linux as an option. I have started with a thing around my school I like to call the "Linux Challenge." Anyone who tries Linux for a week on their computer and writes something about the experiance will get a small prize.

I wasn't speaking about true protection, although Linux is not completely secure (otherwise Red Hat's SELinux wouldn't be needed/wanted) but more visible protection. Windows users feel secure when they have a little antivirus icon in their system tray, but it doesn't mean they actually are. You see where that is headed.

Trebuchet
March 12th, 2007, 03:11 AM
Polite and well reasoned. I doubt anyone will really listen, but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 03:29 AM
I am generalizing here but people HATE change. People really don't like learning something new, and most don't unless they have to.
Most home users won't even consider that they might lose a device since they just assume that everything should already work. When people find that something doesn't work on something different they are immediately turned off by it.
This is not the fault of any distro but the fault of the manufactures of hardware.

My experience with people locally was that people are willing to accept change if they feel it will benefit them. However, the instant the fear of a loved device being unusable enters the equation (in many cases a printer/scanner) that stopped the deal cold.


What does this even mean? Games? 95% of all apps I need are already installed by Feisty. Everything else I don't want on my installation CD because I want it to just be ONE CD not 6 like Mandriva or SUSE. I DON'T want a DVD either.
The other 5% of applications that I want are personal to me and are readily available in repositories.


I'm talking about new and interesting applications that come down the pipes. Songbird is conspicuously absent from the repos, but it's a wonderful peice of beta software. BlogBridge is an excellent application, but it's not in the repos. For the most part that was referring to entertainment applications though, as most productivity apps are included.


I think you are nuts, man. It's like you went back in time, wrote the letter in '97 and then posted it here so you can show us how your open letter changed gnu/linux.
I definitely would not have sent that letter out, it looks like you have been living under a rock. I know a lot of the things you mentioned are not 100% up to par, but it takes time, and if you ask me, things are 98% up to par. Linux is SO close to hitting critical mass for the Desktop. I am very excited for the next 5 years.

Maybe I'm just wearing penguin-rose coloured glasses.

You are certainly welcome to your opinion, although I think it's a little over critical and a little insulting to me. Right now the primary focus of any major distribution is the corporation, All I'm saying with this is that there is money to be made by appealing to the consumer, giving us a better experience as well. You certainly cannot presume to tell me that nothing could be done to make the experience better for home users.

As for Ubuntu, It is the closest of all of the distributions (aside from Linspire which directly targets the home desktop/OEM) to meeting the needs of the home user. I personally work with "mom and pop" shops around my town to offer Ubuntu based on the information I gathered in my small local "studies". I have no exact numbers from the local OEMs but I know they have had moderate success offering Dapper Drake locally since they can do so at a reduced price (they don't get the special deals that major OEMs do). My prime concern with Ubuntu is that if the end-user desktop doesn't show signs of being profitable, they will make a similar course of action to what we saw from Red Hat when they stopped offering their desktop distribution.

SishGupta
March 12th, 2007, 04:47 AM
My experience with people locally was that people are willing to accept change if they feel it will benefit them. However, the instant the fear of a loved device being unusable enters the equation (in many cases a printer/scanner) that stopped the deal cold.
I suppose we just have different experiences here. In mine, the average home user already has a system that suits them just fine and the amount of perceived benefit from new features is much smaller then the amount of time that it takes to learn a new system.
The average home user is not you, me, your buddy, or the teacher at school. The average home user is like Aunt Tilly (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=382283).
Perhaps she is an extreme case, but a lot of people who just use computers for word processing and web surfing have similar reactions.
But it appears we both agree that device failure does stop "the deal".



I'm talking about new and interesting applications that come down the pipes. Songbird is conspicuously absent from the repos, but it's a wonderful peice of beta software. BlogBridge is an excellent application, but it's not in the repos. For the most part that was referring to entertainment applications though, as most productivity apps are included.
Songbird belongs in no repo but an SVN repo at the moment. It will truly be amazing software when complete, but its so alpha right now that they almost need to make a time machine to come up with a greek letter coming before alpha. (I'm half kidding, don't take me so literally)
Packages in repos need maintainers. Volunteer to maintain BlogBridge.
Regardless I don't totally disagree with you on this one, but it takes man power to get things in repos, and right now there isn't enough (an example of this is sourceforge discontinuing their compile farm). Can Novell, SUSE, Cannonical, fix this? Sure, but does it make financial sense? Likely not. Perhaps, again, once Desktop linux picks up a bit more companies will be able to provide more resources into maintaining apps.




You are certainly welcome to your opinion, although I think it's a little over critical and a little insulting to me. Right now the primary focus of any major distribution is the corporation, All I'm saying with this is that there is money to be made by appealing to the consumer, giving us a better experience as well. You certainly cannot presume to tell me that nothing could be done to make the experience better for home users.

As for Ubuntu, It is the closest of all of the distributions (aside from Linspire which directly targets the home desktop/OEM) to meeting the needs of the home user. I personally work with "mom and pop" shops around my town to offer Ubuntu based on the information I gathered in my small local "studies". I have no exact numbers from the local OEMs but I know they have had moderate success offering Dapper Drake locally since they can do so at a reduced price (they don't get the special deals that major OEMs do). My prime concern with Ubuntu is that if the end-user desktop doesn't show signs of being profitable, they will make a similar course of action to what we saw from Red Hat when they stopped offering their desktop distribution.
I am sorry you felt my opinion was insulting. I think this is partly because you do not know me and it is hard to convey tone changes in writing. In the end, I did not mean to be insulting, I meant merely to jest as a way of diffusing the seriousness of my writing. I should have used a smiley as I hear that is their purpose, but I have to admit, I hate the things.
I did not presume to tell you anything regarding a flawless experience with home users. In fact, my 3rd to last line was that there IS room for improvement.
What I can say is that I feel that your article did little to outline potential improvements to Desktop Linux.

Whether or not there is money to be made in Desktop Linux is debatable, and not one I care to get involved with. I read your open letter several times and I frankly did not see your case or even much of a sub-point regarding money can be made off Desktop Linux. All I saw was that you wanted it improved by the corporations. That seemed more like your "prime concern".

If you ask me, your rebuttal to my response was more clear and concise than the actual point in the letter. If you are truly interested in corporate activism, I suggest that you take a business writing course or at least read some tips on the internet. I feel this would help you in getting your point across to companies in a way that would help them want to help you.

Do I think that my opinion was critical? Sure it was! That was my complete intention.
Overly? Not really. You submitted this to people where reading an open letter is not an activity, but something something that actually costs money. It was something that represents a portion of the Linux community, and I believe that it could have been much better said.

That said I am glad you tried and that you are so passionate about the survival of Desktop Linux for the home user.

Takmadeus
March 12th, 2007, 06:15 AM
otherwise Red Hat's SELinux wouldn't be needed/wanted

wasn't it created by the national security agency of the US?

K.Mandla
March 12th, 2007, 07:49 AM
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SELinux

beefcurry
March 12th, 2007, 09:35 AM
its true, I feel the same way all the time. I believe we, the masses that use ubuntu for canonical are just loads of beta testers for ubuntu to evolve into a state where it can be used in schools/government offices/big companies properly. Normal consumers don't bother buying support plans, its the big organizations that do. If they are to target the regular home user they need to change their bussiness model, start signing OEM deals, maybe have its own OEM bussiness one day like Apple. Offering Ubuntu compatible hardware with the option of having ubuntu on at a base price or having Windows on (with windows tax). But easier still would be to sign deals with Big OEMS to do that for them. But these are just my views, views of a lone home user which problely wont make an impact on anyone. My views is problely full of holes and completely economically unfeasable. But maybe someday, some great economist can think of a new market plan that can make FOSS look more to the average home user.

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 10:52 AM
its true, I feel the same way all the time. I believe we, the masses that use ubuntu for canonical are just loads of beta testers for ubuntu to evolve into a state where it can be used in schools/government offices/big companies properly. Normal consumers don't bother buying support plans, its the big organizations that do. If they are to target the regular home user they need to change their bussiness model, start signing OEM deals, maybe have its own OEM bussiness one day like Apple. Offering Ubuntu compatible hardware with the option of having ubuntu on at a base price or having Windows on (with windows tax). But easier still would be to sign deals with Big OEMS to do that for them. But these are just my views, views of a lone home user which problely wont make an impact on anyone. My views is problely full of holes and completely economically unfeasable. But maybe someday, some great economist can think of a new market plan that can make FOSS look more to the average home user.

That was part of the reason for the letter. To put a fire under them to come up with a way to make our market worth the time to stick around, no one wants another Red Hat situation with Ubuntu.

nocturn
March 12th, 2007, 11:41 AM
I wasn't speaking about true protection, although Linux is not completely secure (otherwise Red Hat's SELinux wouldn't be needed/wanted) but more visible protection. Windows users feel secure when they have a little antivirus icon in their system tray, but it doesn't mean they actually are. You see where that is headed.

What we actually need to improve security are things like SELinux or apparmor and better memory protection.

But what can we do to improve the feeling of security for the end user? Anti Virus is not a good solution (even on windows) and putting something like that on would only slow down the systems making Linux look bad.

What is your actual suggestion we do in this area?

Trebuchet
March 12th, 2007, 12:31 PM
What we actually need to improve security are things like SELinux or apparmor and better memory protection.

But what can we do to improve the feeling of security for the end user? Anti Virus is not a good solution (even on windows) and putting something like that on would only slow down the systems making Linux look bad.

What is your actual suggestion we do in this area?I've been told on these very forums that Linux was well-nigh-invulnerable to viruses, worms, and other malware. You seem to be implying that's incorrect (which was my own suspicion).

Assuming just for the sake of this discussion that it's a good idea to run AV software just to be safe, how big a performance hit would Linux take? While I've noticed minor performance degradation on Windows from AV software (unless it was bloatware like Norton, which I discarded years ago), I've always felt that hit was worthwhile. Wouldn't the same be true with Linux, which in and of itself tends to be a much "leaner" OS than Windows or Mac OS X?

nocturn
March 12th, 2007, 12:36 PM
I've been told on these very forums that Linux was well-nigh-invulnerable to viruses, worms, and other malware. You seem to be implying that's incorrect (which was my own suspicion).

Assuming just for the sake of this discussion that it's a good idea to run AV software just to be safe, how big a performance hit would Linux take? While I've noticed minor performance degradation on Windows from AV software (unless it was bloatware like Norton, which I discarded years ago), I've always felt that hit was worthwhile. Wouldn't the same be true with Linux, which in and of itself tends to be a much "leaner" OS than Windows or Mac OS X?

Let me be very clear about this, running anti-virus on Linux is not usefull at this point and I doubt it will ever be. There are many problems related to the use of AV while it contributes little to your security, even on windows.

what would actually make you safer is something like SELinux or AppArmor in combination with PaX etc. But that is all background work.

The author of the letter is talking about the FEELING of security that having the flashing AV icon gives users and how this is not the case on Ubuntu.

Here is a good article talking about the difference of feeling secure and the reality: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/01/in_praise_of_se.html.
It basicly states that you may feel secure while you actually aren't and you may feel vulnerable while you actually are secure.

hizaguchi
March 12th, 2007, 02:11 PM
I wasn't speaking about true protection, although Linux is not completely secure (otherwise Red Hat's SELinux wouldn't be needed/wanted) but more visible protection. Windows users feel secure when they have a little antivirus icon in their system tray, but it doesn't mean they actually are. You see where that is headed.

Are you a politician? Because that's exactly the kind of security approach that gets grandmas cavity searched in airports. I'd rather have true protection against real problems than an icon with occasional pop-ups that say, "Warning, your instant messenger is trying to send a message over the internet!"

mykalreborn
March 12th, 2007, 02:56 PM
Are you a politician? Because that's exactly the kind of security approach that gets grandmas cavity searched in airports. I'd rather have true protection against real problems than an icon with occasional pop-ups that say, "Warning, your instant messenger is trying to send a message over the internet!"

i agree with that. this is self-deceit in a way.

euler_fan
March 12th, 2007, 02:59 PM
This might be a bit odd as odd as questions go, but what is the difference between a "corporate workstation" OS (for managers, salespeople, etc) and a "desktop" version except the basic software load?

I mean, obviously everyone is going to find things like an email client, a web-browser, an office suite, etc, useful. Beyond that, however, what makes one of us on our desktop different from one of us on a workstation except that we all have done a fair bit of customization (that we would have to do either way) and some installed software? Which, okay, if we started from a workstation there would be more to install, but is this really so bad?

Thanks to the add/remove programs app and Synaptic, as many others have pointed out, it is almost trivial to get most programs one would be interested in. And how hard would it be for Canonical to maintain an "ubuntu-home", "kebuntu-home", "xubuntu-home", etc set of meta-packages to get all of us who want those default load-outs as a starting point up to speed with a few clicks? Then it could distribute a stripped down "workstation" version that would be easy to upgrade to the "desktop" version.

my $0.02

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 03:06 PM
What we actually need to improve security are things like SELinux or apparmor and better memory protection.

But what can we do to improve the feeling of security for the end user? Anti Virus is not a good solution (even on windows) and putting something like that on would only slow down the systems making Linux look bad.

What is your actual suggestion we do in this area?

Users (in my experience) like to SEE that the application is working. Increasing the visibility of Apps like SELinux, Apparmor, and so forth so that users know exactly what it is doing and when is a good way to make them *feel* like they're using the war fortress of an operating system that they actually are. The visibility of the Anti-virus is what they like, not the anti-virus itself. Just a small icon showing that SELinux is active, or a splash showing that it's running can give the users a feeling of added security.

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 03:08 PM
This might be a bit odd as odd as questions go, but what is the difference between a "corporate workstation" OS (for managers, salespeople, etc) and a "desktop" version except the basic software load?

I mean, obviously everyone is going to find things like an email client, a web-browser, an office suite, etc, useful. Beyond that, however, what makes one of us on our desktop different from one of us on a workstation except that we all have done a fair bit of customization (that we would have to do either way) and some installed software? Which, okay, if we started from a workstation there would be more to install, but is this really so bad?

Thanks to the add/remove programs app and Synaptic, as many others have pointed out, it is almost trivial to get most programs one would be interested in. And how hard would it be for Canonical to maintain an "ubuntu-home", "kebuntu-home", "xubuntu-home", etc set of meta-packages to get all of us who want those default load-outs as a starting point up to speed with a few clicks? Then it could distribute a stripped down "workstation" version that would be easy to upgrade to the "desktop" version.

my $0.02

The main difference is the software load when it comes to Windows. However, there are some usability things that could be added to assist the home user. Novell is the only company I see making steps forward in usability (ala the Slab, and The Kickoff menu).

beefcurry
March 12th, 2007, 03:16 PM
I would think all that comes second to compatibility, I just want all my hardware to work. Desktops are not simple lan,harddrive,motherboard,cpu setups like servers. There are thousands of new perlipherals coming out each year the opensource community cant possiblely maintain all that. Distro's and Consumers alike need to start demanding for drivers.

Once I can actually use all my hardware will I then start to worry about positions of menu's.

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 03:18 PM
I would think all that comes second to compatibility, I just want all my hardware to work. Desktops are not simple lan,harddrive,motherboard,cpu setups like servers. There are thousands of new perlipherals coming out each year the opensource community cant possiblely maintain all that. Distro's and Consumers alike need to start demanding for drivers.

Once I can actually use all my hardware will I then start to worry about positions of menu's.

This is another point I made in an earlier post on my blog. We *need* help finding good high-quality OEM machines to suggest to our family and friends. If my mp3 player is only going to play mp3 then that's what I need, my distribution provider should be jumping through hoops to help me get into open source if they want me using it so bad. You want me to use OGG? help me find a player that supports it!

euler_fan
March 12th, 2007, 03:27 PM
The main difference is the software load when it comes to Windows. However, there are some usability things that could be added to assist the home user. Novell is the only company I see making steps forward in usability (ala the Slab, and The Kickoff menu).

Then, if I understand your reply correctly, the differences between a workstation Linux and a desktop linux is the ability to sit down and "dive in" so to speak. I found Ubuntu to already be quite accessible. (yes, it has its quirks and I had to do a certain amount of searching for how-to's to really get beyond the basics, but isn't that true of every OS?)

Isn't that debate the main thrust of the "Is linux desktop ready?" thread on the forums?

I haven't personally used Novell's product, so I can't speak to that. Would including something like them in Ubuntu improve its usability for the desktop?

euler_fan
March 12th, 2007, 03:35 PM
This is another point I made in an earlier post on my blog. We *need* help finding good high-quality OEM machines to suggest to our family and friends. If my mp3 player is only going to play mp3 then that's what I need, my distribution provider should be jumping through hoops to help me get into open source if they want me using it so bad. You want me to use OGG? help me find a player that supports it!

How long is it until MP3 comes off patent? There are many, many MP3 owners in this world who are not going to want to convert. We may get a semi-ubiquitous open-source format would trying depending on how long we have to wait.

I agree though, that having OGG support would be nice, but until the music corps decide to start producing OGG files for distribution, having MP3-player compatibility is going to be a more important concern as most will not want to convert their music to OGG to use an OGG player. Similarly for DVD. I don't mean to start a flame war over formats or DRM.

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 03:51 PM
Then, if I understand your reply correctly, the differences between a workstation Linux and a desktop linux is the ability to sit down and "dive in" so to speak. I found Ubuntu to already be quite accessible. (yes, it has its quirks and I had to do a certain amount of searching for how-to's to really get beyond the basics, but isn't that true of every OS?)

Isn't that debate the main thrust of the "Is linux desktop ready?" thread on the forums?

I haven't personally used Novell's product, so I can't speak to that. Would including something like them in Ubuntu improve its usability for the desktop?

Novell's offerings are some of the best for the desktop. But yes, a corporate distribution (like RHEL) would go through significantly less tweaking and use than a home distribution. This is partly because of a difference in the user. If Novell were to take a more canonical like stance to closed source packages, etc. they would without a doubt be the distribution I suggested to my friends and family. As it stands though, I don't suggest anything to my family, I'm waiting for a distro to meet their needs.

A distribution in the office is going to use the exact same programs every single day, with very little variation. A distribution in a home set up is subject to TONS of installing and uninstalling of new and old software over it's lifetime. Also, chances are that a person sitting in an office has some degree of training with the software, the person at home will not have that training in all likely hood.


How long is it until MP3 comes off patent? There are many, many MP3 owners in this world who are not going to want to convert. We may get a semi-ubiquitous open-source format would trying depending on how long we have to wait.

I agree though, that having OGG support would be nice, but until the music corps decide to start producing OGG files for distribution, having MP3-player compatibility is going to be a more important concern as most will not want to convert their music to OGG to use an OGG player. Similarly for DVD. I don't mean to start a flame war over formats or DRM.

Well, there is nothing to stop you from ripping that CD into vorbis (.ogg) but most songs you can download etc. are in the Mp3 format, you're right. It was just an example.

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 04:06 PM
I've made a slight modification to the post. It now contains links to discussion about the letter on the ubuntu forums, Susecommunity forums, and Linuxquestions.org. I would appreciate it if you guys could help me keep more up to date on any other discussions about this letter.

My goal is to collect as much information as I can from your responses, and hopefully formulate it into something more powerful than what I could do alone.

hizaguchi
March 12th, 2007, 06:21 PM
I just don't see the point in this. I'm reading the letter from your blog, and it just sounds like you're saying that Linux distributions are targeted at the wrong group of people, meaning large corporate and/or institutional implementations. You then go on to argue that the group that should be targeted consists of people whose only concept of computer security goes no deeper than a pretty splash screen saying, "Your computer is secure!" and whose OS choice is governed by a combination of "fun stuff" and a desire to show off.

There is already a computing solution targeted at that group of people (http://www.nintendo.com/home). Meanwhile, Microsoft, Apple, and many Linux distros are enjoying great successes from focusing on businesses, professionals, and educational institutions.

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 06:36 PM
I just don't see the point in this. I'm reading the letter from your blog, and it just sounds like you're saying that Linux distributions are targeted at the wrong group of people, meaning large corporate and/or institutional implementations. You then go on to argue that the group that should be targeted consists of people whose only concept of computer security goes no deeper than a pretty splash screen saying, "Your computer is secure!" and whose OS choice is governed by a combination of "fun stuff" and a desire to show off.

There is already a computing solution targeted at that group of people (http://www.nintendo.com/home). Meanwhile, Microsoft, Apple, and many Linux distros are enjoying great successes from focusing on businesses, professionals, and educational institutions.

You misunderstand. I am not saying (and I have said this in response to a comment in my blog) that the corporate desktop and the server will not be MORE profitable. I'm saying that there is profit to be made in the home/end-user market.

And yes, in my experience working to collect information and help to spread linux around my town I collected a lot of information. That was a basic summary of the information I collected, I'm going to be doing a lot more follow up work locally to get hard numbers to support my claims. The home user likes toys, they like new and interesting applications to play with, and they like to appear as though they have one up on other people just through their OS choice (Mac users?).

Perfect example is that I customized my mother's windows PC, she's as tech illiterate as they come. I designed that PC from the ground up, right down to the UI modifications in windows, I picked out the parts for it and she payed. She has now rehearsed her show-off speech to the point that she doesn't have to think about it. By the time that computer was a week old everyone in town knew exactly what the desktop looked like, and EXACTLY what hardware was in it.

What does she do with that computer? Basic things for the most part, checking email, surfing, etc. But if there is a great new email client with some flashy bits, she has it. New web browser? she's got it too. In addition to the last 30 re-hashes of "X-treme solitaire" (not a real game). She's got every cool new IM client to keep in touch with us with, and every cool new bit torrent/p2p program. And she understands NONE of it, but it keeps her happy to be playing with new tech.

She is not the only person I've seen behave that way out of the over 200 that I personally spoke with in my efforts to collect information locally.

mykalreborn
March 12th, 2007, 07:35 PM
well... my opinion about all of this is that we should appreciate adam for at least sending the email to the companies and sharing it with us. it was a bold step and not because he sent them - anyone can do that, but because he showed it to us, to people who said "he was living under a rock", to people who didn't agree with him or didn't understand what he wanted to say.
but i don't want people to think weird stuff about all of this so i'll stop bragging adam.:p
my opinion is that the open-source community is in a predicament. yes i know everyone has a different opinion. here's mine:
the problem is that there is no real leader. no one really says where the linux community should head to. developers aren't going to develop so seriously if they don't have a schedule of sorts. but at the same time the only thing that drives linux is it's bazaar-like structure;everyone is free to do everything. plus we can all take a quick look at windows and see where the leader attitude takes things. so the problem with linux are these two ideologies which in a perfect world would work great together, but in this one they just cancel each other out.
think about it. if people weren't so mean, so money-hungry, so jealous, how good would things be. but this no longer has to do with linux, it's about the entire human race and it's evolution...
in the end i believe what adam is trying to do is a good thing. maybe if more of us were to speak our mind, and create some kind of organization, or just a bigger mass of people mailing novell, mailing canonical, mailing red hat, they would take us serious. i doubt that any of the firms will reply to one or two mails, not to mention change their whole marketing strategy. but this of course involves courage, commitment and time, three qualities not everyone possesses...

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 07:38 PM
well... my opinion about all of this is that we should appreciate adam for at least sending the email to the companies and sharing it with us. it was a bold step and not because he sent them - anyone can do that, but because he showed it to us, to people who said "he was living under a rock", to people who didn't agree with him or didn't understand what he wanted to say.
but i don't want people to think weird stuff about all of this so i'll stop bragging adam.:p
my opinion is that the open-source comunity is in a predicament. yes i know everyone has a different opinion. here's mine:
the problem is that there is no real leader. no one really says where the linux comunity should head to. developers aren't going to develop so seroiously if they don't have a scheadule of sorts. but at the same time the only thing that drives the linux cominuty is it's bazaar-like structure;everyone is free to do everything. so the problem with linux are these two ideologies which in a perfect world would work great toghether, but in this one they just cancel each other out.
think about it. if people weren't so mean, so money-hungry, so jeallous, how good would things be. but this no longer has to do with linux, it's about the entire human race and it's evolution.
in the end i believe what adam is trying to do is a good thing. maybe if more of us were to speak our mind, and create some kind of organisation, or just a bigger mass of people mailing novell, mailing canonical, mailing red hat, they would take us serious. i doubt that any of the firms will reply to one or two mails, not to mention change their whole marketing strategy

Haha, thanks for the compliments. I will admit, I'm hopeful that people will send in their own emails, but I'm also hoping to use the replies and such from this thread to script a more generic email that anyone can send to the companies. Perhaps someone will pay attention to us if we scream loud enough.

mykalreborn
March 12th, 2007, 07:42 PM
Haha, thanks for the compliments. I will admit, I'm hopeful that people will send in their own emails, but I'm also hoping to use the replies and such from this thread to script a more generic email that anyone can send to the companies. Perhaps someone will pay attention to us if we scream loud enough.

i was thinking of sending them an email myself... i just have to write it.

Adamant1988
March 12th, 2007, 07:46 PM
i was thinking of sending them an email myself... i just have to write it.

You can use mine as a basic script if you like, it's not copyrighted or anything. haha.

mykalreborn
March 12th, 2007, 07:56 PM
You can use mine as a basic script if you like, it's not copyrighted or anything. haha.

lol. of course it's not... allthough you never know. :-k...
btw. i've added you to my jabber im list. hope that's ok. i want to talk to you more about this so i can better understand what you say. i'm afraid i didn't quite caught what you said.
i'll write my own email. few things give me more happiness than writing down a good old essay-like text. :D

prizrak
March 12th, 2007, 11:39 PM
Apple has always targeted the home user and see where that got them. I have said it before and I will say it again the only way to get into the desktop OS business is through organizations. People tend to use at home what they use at work, if Linux is what is used at work that is exactly what will be used at home.

The job I'm at currently is 100% Windows based to even telecommute I need to have Windows installed as the VPN software is Windows only. If I want to stay home for whatever reason I need Windows installed. Since I work with MS SQL DB's I need to have them installed locally if I want to try out some things. So again I need Windows.

There is also a hell of a lot more money in organizational IT market than there is in the home market so it makes financial sense to invest into it.

Adamant1988
March 13th, 2007, 12:50 AM
Apple has always targeted the home user and see where that got them. I have said it before and I will say it again the only way to get into the desktop OS business is through organizations. People tend to use at home what they use at work, if Linux is what is used at work that is exactly what will be used at home.

The job I'm at currently is 100% Windows based to even telecommute I need to have Windows installed as the VPN software is Windows only. If I want to stay home for whatever reason I need Windows installed. Since I work with MS SQL DB's I need to have them installed locally if I want to try out some things. So again I need Windows.

There is also a hell of a lot more money in organizational IT market than there is in the home market so it makes financial sense to invest into it.

BUT that's not to say that there is no money in the home market. (Oh, and by the by, Apple targets professionals primarily, as far as I know.)

Adamant1988
March 13th, 2007, 01:05 AM
Novell is the first to reply to me, which is a bit surprising honestly. Anyway, I updated my blog.

Trebuchet
March 13th, 2007, 03:09 AM
Let me be very clear about this, running anti-virus on Linux is not usefull at this point and I doubt it will ever be. There are many problems related to the use of AV while it contributes little to your security, even on windows.

what would actually make you safer is something like SELinux or AppArmor in combination with PaX etc. But that is all background work.

The author of the letter is talking about the FEELING of security that having the flashing AV icon gives users and how this is not the case on Ubuntu.

Here is a good article talking about the difference of feeling secure and the reality: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/01/in_praise_of_se.html.
It basicly states that you may feel secure while you actually aren't and you may feel vulnerable while you actually are secure.I'm not interested in flashy security; I'm interested in security that works. The only reason I want an icon showing AV is so I have confirmation it's running. Maybe I'm atypical of Windows and/or general computer users in this regard, but I doubt it. I think this is one item Adam is wrong about, because I think most typical computer users simply don't give security that much conscious thought. If they did, the vast majority of viruses and worms would fizzle because nobody would open them.

There's a lot about Linux security I don't understand yet, and since I'm not currently using Linux my opportunities to gain further knowledge firsthand are limited. I really appreciate links which will let me learn, because sooner or later I will be using Linux again.

I agree that AV software of of strictly limited utility even in Windows; safe computing practices and securing the OS as much as possible are far more useful. Admittedly Windows has further to go than Linux in this regard, but I've managed to avoid infection for nearly 10 years running Windows and accessing the internet daily so I must be doing something right. I view AV software strictly as a backup, not as my primary defense.

seijuro
March 13th, 2007, 05:22 AM
Instead of starting a flame war by explaining my full opinion of the letter I will just say at least it's good you speak your mind.

jrusso2
March 13th, 2007, 05:52 AM
The only way to impact the home desktop market is for Linux to be pre-loaded on some major OEM systesms.

Most computers come loaded with windows and few people change them.

What is needed is a distribution targeted at OEMs like HP, Dell, Gateway, that can be preloaded and contains

out of the box DVD, codecs, java, flash, wireless support, or an easy one click way to install it right on the desktop with install X here in big letters so they can't miss it.

Not flashing AV icons, lol

Jeanette

nocturn
March 13th, 2007, 09:09 AM
Users (in my experience) like to SEE that the application is working. Increasing the visibility of Apps like SELinux, Apparmor, and so forth so that users know exactly what it is doing and when is a good way to make them *feel* like they're using the war fortress of an operating system that they actually are. The visibility of the Anti-virus is what they like, not the anti-virus itself. Just a small icon showing that SELinux is active, or a splash showing that it's running can give the users a feeling of added security.

I understand this, but you cannot put an icon on SELinux or AppArmor to show any sort of meaninful status. They limit what an application can do in a much better way then file system protections do, but it is still mostly passive. (SELinux tranforms the security model of Linux from a DAC - Discretionary Access Control - to a MAC - Mandatory Access Control - system, it is not an application in itself).

The same goes for PaX, for better mount options for filesystems (noexec, nosuid, nodev and a sticky bit on /tmp).

I think the only viable way of showing how secure you are to the end user is to provide information, not a security theater because at one point it will come out that it's a fake and people will no longer trust you.

nocturn
March 13th, 2007, 09:12 AM
The main difference is the software load when it comes to Windows. However, there are some usability things that could be added to assist the home user. Novell is the only company I see making steps forward in usability (ala the Slab, and The Kickoff menu).

I'm sorry but I disagree. SLAB is not a good thing for usability though it has some appeal to some people.

Gnome is greatly focussing on usability studies and guidelines, as is KDE4 (though I'm awaiting the results on the latter).

nocturn
March 13th, 2007, 09:13 AM
This is another point I made in an earlier post on my blog. We *need* help finding good high-quality OEM machines to suggest to our family and friends. If my mp3 player is only going to play mp3 then that's what I need, my distribution provider should be jumping through hoops to help me get into open source if they want me using it so bad. You want me to use OGG? help me find a player that supports it!

Agreed, I've been saying that for a long time. Though I think RedHat recently announced something like that.

prizrak
March 13th, 2007, 04:17 PM
Adamant1988,
Somehow I think you meat a very limited segment of computer users. All computer illiterates that I have met don't want any flashing icons of anything, they don't want to know what an A/V even is. They want to know that they are safe and won't have to worry about viruses/*ware. I have actually heard alot of computer illiterates thinking of going to Mac for that reason.

As far as Apple targetting professionals. I can only go by their ad campaigns and since the IntelMac came out it would seem that they are targetting the home user rather than professional.

In general question is not whether there is any money in the home user market the question is "If we build it will they come?". It has been raised in a different thread but basically even if Dell/HP/Toshiba/Lenovo/Sony and the others start preloading Linux on computers they might have a hard time selling them. Most people don't know about Linux or what it is and would be reluctant to purchase a system with it. A big number of people who do know what Linux is build their own systems (save for laptops). A scenario that shows tiny sales for Linux and huge for Windows will just make the OEM's abandon Linux. This is why I say that distro's should be going after the organizational desktop market rather than home user market.

As far as things like usability goes, the rules are the same for any desktop, things need to be extremely easy to find and programs should be discoverable. All the cool applications you are talking about are not created by the distro for the most part it's normally 3rd party created and therefore will be unaffected by distro focus.

Another thing is that once Linux becomes more popular with organizations as a desktop it will drive the home users to start adopting it. Remember the killer app for PC's was Lotus 1-2-3 a purely business piece of software. For Windows it's mostly MS Office right now. As home users start adopting Linux disro's can start improving on that front as well. Improvements in one segment will affect the other. After all Windows is the same on my work machine as it is on any other desktop running it.

nocturn
March 14th, 2007, 03:04 PM
I replied before that Anti-virus software is not needed on Linux nor is it a good idea on windows.
Well, this thread made me digg up an old article I wrote about this subject, which was not very well written.

So today, I rewrote it. Those interested can read it here:
http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/?q=node/33

Adamant1988
March 14th, 2007, 03:10 PM
I replied before that Anti-virus software is not needed on Linux nor is it a good idea on windows.
Well, this thread made me digg up an old article I wrote about this subject, which was not very well written.

So today, I rewrote it. Those interested can read it here:
http://nocturn.vsbnet.be/?q=node/33

I've rethought this, and I think that informing the user is perhaps the best way to go here. Perhaps a 1st run html page detailing the ways that their system is secured, etc.

prizrak
March 14th, 2007, 08:37 PM
I've rethought this, and I think that informing the user is perhaps the best way to go here. Perhaps a 1st run html page detailing the ways that their system is secured, etc.

User education is always good but most don't read the webpage. The problem is that PC users are used to being scared. Perhaps the new generation will be more comfortable with technology and understand it well enough to not need visual feedback. Nice thought, huh?

mykalreborn
March 14th, 2007, 08:47 PM
the problem with a greeting help is that as there are many people who will find it helpful, there will be as many people who will find it annoying. best would be for the os to ask you at the beginning how knowledgeable are you in computers... something very quick and small, that can be changed at any time - something simillar to azureus.