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billdotson
March 10th, 2007, 05:01 AM
so I have about a year before I actually start my classes for my major. I am thinking of majoring in computer science but I have noticed that Calculus 1,2 and 3 are required courses.

Does anyone know how difficult those classes are? Also, generally how hard would you say it would be to get a Bachelor's in CS?

I really like computers and am learning stuff on my own now (Linux, python, blender, etc.) and I think I would really enjoy the computer classes in CS but mainly the calculus courses seem quite intimidating. I am taking pre-calculus right now.. and it's a breeze (I took the exact same class last semester w/ a different name so it is just a rehash of old stuff) but calculus is just one of those things you hear and think "ouch."

Does anyone here have a Bachelor's in CS? Do you like having it and your job?

Just wondering if I should go IT major or CS major.. although the CS classes look a LOT more fun.

Also, what stuff can I do/learn now that would be fun and useful knowledge in getting a CS degree (as it would be nice to be familiar with some of the concepts, etc. when I start taking the classes)? I know a few things like how to build PCs, troubleshoot a few hardware issues, etc. and the people I know seem to look to me for fixes to their computer issues although in the world of people that really know PCs I would consider myself somewhat of a novice.

Although I do not want to try to learn so much/do so much in a certain amount of time as to burn myself out and end up hating the technical aspects of computers.. that is really what I enjoy doing now.. maybe it would be a good idea to do 2 or 3 couple hour sessions of that stuff a day, then play some PC games, watch TV, surf the net and just generally relax for the rest of the my free time.

jpkotta
March 10th, 2007, 06:21 AM
If you're good at math or you like it (one sort of implies the other), Calculus will not be a huge deal. Business majors are scared of it. Technical people should not be. But that doesn't mean it won't be difficult. Math courses like Calculus will teach logical thinking needed by anyone in CS.

CS has very little to do with playing with PCs. There is a lot of theory. What are the theoretical limitations of computation? How well does a particular solution to a problem work if the problem doubles in size? There are obviously practical elements as well.

Disclaimer: I am an EE, but I do some software. Close enough to CS.

teet
March 10th, 2007, 07:05 AM
I didn't mind calculus at all. Calc 1 at my school was a 5 hour course that actually ended up being fun. I had always wondered what derivates and integrals were. Calc 2 was also 5 hours. It was considerably harder than calc 1. Particularly, I remember the series/sequences chapter being a bit sticky (I honestly don't remember any of it now). Calc 3 was a 3 hour course. It was actually the hardest of the three classes, but it *SEEMED* easier because it was only a 3 hour course. I think your calculus experience will depend on what professor you get.

My advice: Do all of the assigned homework problems (even if they're not graded). If you don't understand something, go to the professor's office hours or to a tutoring session. Buy a solutions manual if available. The back of the book usually has the answers to the odd numbered problems...a solutions manual will show you all of the steps to get the solution.

I don't know much about CS, but from my limited encouters with it (I took one CS course) and talking to friends who were CS majors, it seems to be a really hard major. Right up there with physics or math in my books.

Disclaimer: I was a math major in undergrad.

-teet

that guy
March 10th, 2007, 07:18 AM
Check to see if your school offers a degree in Information Systems. It will most likely be a BS of Business, which in this day and age is not a bad thing to have. If you like computers, but are worried about the math and all the other stuff look into IS.

What it all boils down to is what you want out of life. Do you love computers and want to spend all day messing with them or do you want to get involved in business and see where computers can take it.

I personally love computers and like spending the time fooling with them, but when it came to school I, like you, was a bit concerned with the math and really technical classes, so I went into IS. I've come to find out what is really important in a job is for one to be able to be able to translate the technical talk of the hackers into business language for the company officers. (Not that this has to be in a super corporate setting.) Companies are starting to realize what IT can do for them and if you can be the go between guy, you'll be in good shape.

Not to sound like a putz, but if you can align IT with the business strategy, you'll go far.

autoexec
March 10th, 2007, 07:26 AM
do the maths.
later stuff in cs is described in maths
(well, all the interesting stuff anyway)

once your actually in the maths course, you'll ask yourself what all the fuss was about

StarsAndBars14
March 10th, 2007, 07:39 AM
Well, I'd have to second that bit about math. Also, look into online courses or summer school to beef up what you're lacking in technical knowledge. You might want to stay away from places such as DeVry though.

It seems the average university doesn't like credits from a technical school and won't honor them. So if you decide you want to make that BS a Master's later on in your life you're going to have to start all over again.

brianh57
March 10th, 2007, 07:44 AM
If Pre-Calc is easy, why not keep going. Personally, it took me 3 tries to pass Calc 1. That's when I joined the Army and they told me I was perfectly suited to learning languages (and they were right). I like tinkering with computers but I'm definitely not an engineer / scientist.

My advice...do what you enjoy doing, work hard at it, do it better than anyone else, and be glad you have the opportunity to persue the things you enjoy doing.

IYY
March 10th, 2007, 08:05 AM
Does anyone know how difficult those classes are?

Not very difficult, especially if you are willing to put in some effort and learn to see the patterns. Math is important for computer science, so you should pay attention in those classes and actually try learning. Of course, you won't be doing much integration when writing code or proving the correctness of algorithms, but you will need that way of thinking, and some of the language. Set notation and predicate logic is vital.


Also, generally how hard would you say it would be to get a Bachelor's in CS?


Depends on the university, but generally it's about as difficult as any other science degree, like physics and chemistry, except that it often requires more logic and reasoning than memorizing.


I really like computers and am learning stuff on my own now (Linux, python, blender, etc.) and I think I would really enjoy the computer classes in CS but mainly the calculus courses seem quite intimidating. I am taking pre-calculus right now.. and it's a breeze (I took the exact same class last semester w/ a different name so it is just a rehash of old stuff) but calculus is just one of those things you hear and think "ouch."


I don't think you'll have trouble.


Does anyone here have a Bachelor's in CS? Do you like having it and your job?

I almost have one, but I have worked in CS already. It's not as fun as I would like it to be, but it's better than any other "real" job I can imagine myself doing. The good thing is that you're always learning new things! That's also the bad thing...


Just wondering if I should go IT major or CS major.. although the CS classes look a LOT more fun.

At our university, people usually try CS and if they can't handle it they switch to IT. I think that if you consider CS to be more fun than IT, you can probably handle it. Be warned though, that it is actually less practical for most jobs than IT, and will teach you a lot of theory that you will not actually use (of course, that theory will make you a better programmer).


Also, what stuff can I do/learn now that would be fun and useful knowledge in getting a CS degree (as it would be nice to be familiar with some of the concepts, etc. when I start taking the classes)? I know a few things like how to build PCs, troubleshoot a few hardware issues, etc. and the people I know seem to look to me for fixes to their computer issues although in the world of people that really know PCs I would consider myself somewhat of a novice.

Building computers is fairly useless for CS students. Many of the best have never even opened their cases, and many of the worst are pros. What you need to learn is programming, math and logic. Out of those three things, programming is the one you should do on your own, and leave the rest for your formal education. I find that those who didn't know how to code at the beginning of the program generally dropped out.


Although I do not want to try to learn so much/do so much in a certain amount of time as to burn myself out and end up hating the technical aspects of computers.. that is really what I enjoy doing now.. maybe it would be a good idea to do 2 or 3 couple hour sessions of that stuff a day, then play some PC games, watch TV, surf the net and just generally relax for the rest of the my free time.

Don't worry about it too much. University in general is something you should take seriously, but not too seriously. You won't learn much if you're stressed and worried. Look at programming like a game, or a logic puzzle, not work! (unfortunately, it does become far less fun towards third year, but what can you do :confused: )

macogw
March 10th, 2007, 09:32 AM
WOW! I just have to have Calc 1 and Discrete Math for CS, but then again, I'm getting a BA in it, not a BS. All I know is, Calc 2 is the hardest Calc.

slimdog360
March 10th, 2007, 12:56 PM
I am the 1337 mathxor and as such I say do it if you want to do it. Math is just one of those things that any one can pass if they spend the time to learn it. So look at it this way, if you want to get a bachelors degree in Computer Science then you just simply have to do it. nuff said.

mips
March 10th, 2007, 03:15 PM
I am thinking of majoring in computer science but I have noticed that Calculus 1,2 and 3 are required courses.

Is the curiculum/course content for Calc 1-3 available online as I would like to see what it covers.

Tomosaur
March 10th, 2007, 07:06 PM
I am currently doing a batchelor's in software development - which does have some Computer Science modules thrown in for good measure. (Software Development is not Computer Science, for those who don't know. SD can be described as a part of computer science - but the relation between the two is pretty minimal, aside from the common factor that both areas use computers.)

I was never 'great' at mathematics/calculus - in fact I used to hate it, but I wasn't terrible. I just didn't have a great interest in it, so I would learn it 'on the fly' - I knew enough to pass my exams with good marks, but not a lot of it stuck. Since I've been doing SD - I've acquired a new found respect for maths - not because SD requires a lot of high-level maths (it doesn't, at all), but because I think about things differently, and approach problems in a different way. The thought processes of a programmer and a mathematician are probably very similar - even if the two don't have the skills of the other.

In any case - I would expect you would undergo a similar process. Computer Science is likely to involve a fair amount of logic to solve problems, which will help you to understand and cope with calculus a bit better. You should probably start learning both before you ever get into university - so that you're already thinking along those lines when you get there.

For me - I didn't even want to go to university, really. My dream is to be a musician - and I'm still pursuing it. I only went to university to stop myself falling into a dreary, full time office job. In actual fact - I didn't even apply to university until the day I received my A level results. I received a phone call offering me a place the same day (while I was out drinking, no less. I think I was pretty drunk when I rang the university back to accept their offer). I don't particularly want a job in software development or computing - if truth be told I find much of the subject very boring. Programming is a creative process, and I enjoy solving problems. The theory and business aspects to the course really depress me, but I enjoy the programming side of it quite a lot. I've found myself quite caught up in the open-source philosophy, because it ties in very nicely with my own ideals. My new respect for mathematics follows somewhat along those lines - I've read more and more about the subject, and I'm very interested in the patterns and the chaos of the universe at that kind of level.

So I say - forget about your chosen subject. You go to university to learn how to think, not to earn £100,000 a year. If you have an interest - then tailor your university time to develop that interest. I am not very interested in 'computers' per se, but the course suits me because I like thinking in the manner required to do it. It's not so much logic which does it for me - it's the creation of something which solves a problem, or does something neat or otherwise interesting. The prospect of a high paying job is just not really a motivation for me at all. Find out what kind of things your course touches on - and see if it suits your personality or your interests. If you know you want to work with computers because you like computers - then by all means, go for it. I would advise you to think again if you want to work with computers because your motivation is a high-end job. University has an ability to make your life a living hell with deadlines and stuff. If your only motivation to go through university is to have lots of money AFTER university, then I'd say you need to re-evaluate what you want to do with your time and money (uni is not cheap!).

Sorry if I derailed the thread a bit there!

Jedi Penguin
March 10th, 2007, 07:55 PM
When you're CS major, pretty much everything else in computers in a piece of cake. I'd go that route. Most schools require Calculus and some schools just go upto Pre-Cal. I found out the key to understanding Calculus is having a good Algebra foundation. If your poor on Algebra you'll stuggle through Calculus, but if you're strong on it you should flow through Calculus.

billdotson
March 10th, 2007, 09:15 PM
well I am not bad at Algebra as when I know how to do it I do well but I often make B's in math instead of A's because I make minor mistakes like forgetting a negative and such or forgetting to put a +/- before the answer of a square root. Just little mistakes that keep adding up keep my math grades at B's.

I am not looking to get a CS degree to get a high paying job, but it is the degree I want to get because apart from the calculus ( I do have to take 12 hrs. of either biology, physics or chemistry or one other subject but I do not care about them as much as calculus) I like all the concepts the actual computer courses are about. It is just that I want to take the computer classes and learn that stuff but the calculus and science stuff seems somewhat intimidating.

Tomosaur
March 10th, 2007, 09:27 PM
well I am not bad at Algebra as when I know how to do it I do well but I often make B's in math instead of A's because I make minor mistakes like forgetting a negative and such or forgetting to put a +/- before the answer of a square root. Just little mistakes that keep adding up keep my math grades at B's.

I am not looking to get a CS degree to get a high paying job, but it is the degree I want to get because apart from the calculus ( I do have to take 12 hrs. of either biology, physics or chemistry or one other subject but I do not care about them as much as calculus) I like all the concepts the actual computer courses are about. It is just that I want to take the computer classes and learn that stuff but the calculus and science stuff seems somewhat intimidating.

I wouldn't worry much about it. Given your current experience of computers - you don't need to use much science or math, do you? You won't need to be an expert in the fields, but you will need to be able to do basic things, like calculating voltages etc etc.

In any case - the course will contain modules which focus on these 'extra areas' - to keep you up to date and to reinforce what you already know.

billdotson
March 10th, 2007, 11:58 PM
I just checked and I was mistaken about the math. I do have to take the following courses:

[CS] Discrete Mathematics
[CS] FORTRAN Programming
[CS] Computer Science II (FORTRAN being pre-requisite)
[CS] Assembly Language and Machine Operation
[CS] Intro to Theoretical Computer Science
[CS] Data Structures
[CS] Computer Systems I
[CS] Computer Systems II
[CS] Programming Languages
[CS] Senior Seminar in Computer Science
[CS] Software Engineering
11 hours of credit w/ electives within CS classes
[Math] Calculus and Analytical Geometry I
[Math] Calculus and Analytical Geometry II
[Math] Intro to Linear Algebra
[Math] Intro to Probability and Statistics
[Science] 12 hours of science credit choosing from biology, physics, astronomy, chemistry
[Other] 2 hours of semester credit for a course not in the CS department.

So in fact I only have to take Calculus I and II not III. So now that I have given a more detailed description of what I am required to take what things would you recommend me trying to learn on my own with the 1-1.5 years I have left before having to start those classes? Right now I am learning Python (or at least trying to.. I can't find a good way to start..)

Also, there is a tech support center at the university where students and faculty can take their computers for free tech support and I feel that with a bit of extra learning I could get hired there pretty easily and get paid for tinkering with PCs (and I might also be able to count that as a 3 hr. work experience for one of my CS electives) They do hardware troubleshooting and troubleshooting for viruses, spyware, overall sluggishness of systems, etc.

Last year when my old PC's motherboard and PSU fried I decided to take on building my own. I got all the parts and built it up from scratch and then about 1-2 weeks later I built another PC for one of my friends. I feel that I know a decent amount of hardware troubleshooting as well. I have also been learning Linux as I have been using Ubuntu for 5 or so weeks now. I know a decent amount of Windows stuff (checking network connections w/ ping and ipconfig, defragging and cleaning up temp files, etc.) and I know nothing about Mac or Mac OSes as I have never used them.

What would you recommend I learn on my own that would prepare me and get me a better chance of getting hired for the tech support? I would assume as many people use Windows that viruses, spyware, adware are the main issues. I do not really know anything about how to do virus, spyware and adware cleanup apart from just using my program to scan for it as I have never gotten a virus on my own PC so I have never had to deal w/ it. I do know how to check the current connections using the DOS shell and match them up with the process IDs in the system monitor but I don't know what processes don't belong etc. so I don't know how much help that is.

Well thanks.. even though I am on my way to getting a BS in CS as that would be the most interesting classes my eventual learning goal is to be what you would call a "computer guru" or otherwards being more or less and expert or at least familiarized with the basics of all the major fields.

jpkotta
March 11th, 2007, 12:24 AM
So in fact I only have to take Calculus I and II not III. So now that I have given a more detailed description of what I am required to take what things would you recommend me trying to learn on my own with the 1-1.5 years I have left before having to start those classes? Right now I am learning Python (or at least trying to.. I can't find a good way to start..)


Too bad. I thought Calc III (multivariate Calculus) was the most interesting one. But it makes sense. CS majors don't have to take it at my school either.

I'm learning Python with this (and the library reference on the same web site)
http://docs.python.org/tut/tut.html



So I say - forget about your chosen subject. You go to university to learn how to think, not to earn £100,000 a year. If you have an interest - then tailor your university time to develop that interest.

Sound advice. You learn how to learn in college. You get a base of fundamentals to hit the ground running, so you can learn all the application-specific stuff on the job with minimal time and effort. And if it's not interesting (on average), just forget about it.

billdotson
March 11th, 2007, 02:21 AM
yeah I am not getting a degree just to get money.. the classes in CS are ones that will interest me the most. I don't even know if I will even work for someone when I get out of college but getting the CS degree will guarantee me a job in stuff that interests me if I decide not to make a small + local computer business.

I do not know though as our town is growing and by the time I get out of college there might be enough of a market for it. I was thinking of having a computer business that does the following:

-Builds custom PCs according to what the customer wants to use it for e.g. multimedia, web browsing, work, etc. (buying parts from newegg.com, tigerdirect.com, or another place depending on price)

- possibly building custom PC cases

- possibly make custom laptops out of mini-atx parts or laptop parts

-For those custom PCs having the option to choose between a variety of Linux distros (which would make the price of the PC be lower than PC w/ Windows) or Windows.

-home networking (and possibly small business networking.. depends)

- free hardware support for a certain amount of time.. I guess about a year. I do not know what to do though about defective hardware as I don't think I should make the client have to wait a week or two for a replacement product.

- free software/OS support for a period of time.. I don't know how long but if I keep it free too long they won't have to come to me anymore as they will know all of it.

-offering some OS/popular application courses e.g.- Windows, Linux, Microsoft Office, Openoffice, Quicken, Tax programs, etc.

-if they do not want a custom PC I will offer paid hardware and software/OS support i.e. no free-for-a-period-of-time

I don't know how well that will work out and I feel doubtful that I could learn enough to feel that I have sufficient knowledge to start such a business.

Also, what other popular computer degrees are there.. as I want to know something other than CS and IT.. as between CS and IT I would like CS more but I might like another degree more.

Tomosaur
March 11th, 2007, 02:58 AM
Computer science is kind of 'all encompassing'. You learn a very wide range of computer related stuff - but you probably won't go too in-depth with any one area. Whether that's good or bad is up to you. On the one hand - you'll need to do more research when someone comes to you with a problem. You may know the skills that their problem requires you to utilise, but you may not know the best practices, or anything particularly specific at all - so you'll need to read up about it. On the other hand - you are more prepared to tackle a wide range of problems, as you already have a basic understanding of most things.

As for other computer related degress, I can think of the following:
Software Developer
Software Engineer
System administrator
Network technician
Computer Repair technician
Software tester - (testing teams and developer teams are likely to be seperated. The software developer will have an inherent bias towards some things. Let's say you need to do 3 actions in a piece of software to perform a task. A tester may think this is annoying, and could be accomplished in one action. The developer doesn't notice this problem, because he/she has built that 'feature' in, and so doesn't regard it as out of the ordinary. A 'tester' can cover a wide range of things, and isn't necessarily constrained to software, so it's not really a 'computing' skill. I don't even know if there's any academic course available for this, but it's certainly a big part of many different fields).
Database designer / maintainer - (database design is not really related to computing courses - it just makes heavy use of computers as a tool. Many IT courses will teach you database skills though, and vice versa.)
Games designer (not necessarily computer related - depends what part of the design process you're into)
Web designer
Hardware engineer / technician (this is more likely to be stuck with engineering as a field rather than computing courses, so you may want to take a look at the engineering department of your chosen universities)

mustang
March 11th, 2007, 03:27 AM
yeah I am not getting a degree just to get money.. the classes in CS are ones that will interest me the most. I don't even know if I will even work for someone when I get out of college but getting the CS degree will guarantee me a job in stuff that interests me if I decide not to make a small + local computer business.

I do not know though as our town is growing and by the time I get out of college there might be enough of a market for it. I was thinking of having a computer business that does the following:

-Builds custom PCs according to what the customer wants to use it for e.g. multimedia, web browsing, work, etc. (buying parts from newegg.com, tigerdirect.com, or another place depending on price)

- possibly building custom PC cases

- possibly make custom laptops out of mini-atx parts or laptop parts

-For those custom PCs having the option to choose between a variety of Linux distros (which would make the price of the PC be lower than PC w/ Windows) or Windows.

-home networking (and possibly small business networking.. depends)

- free hardware support for a certain amount of time.. I guess about a year. I do not know what to do though about defective hardware as I don't think I should make the client have to wait a week or two for a replacement product.

- free software/OS support for a period of time.. I don't know how long but if I keep it free too long they won't have to come to me anymore as they will know all of it.

-offering some OS/popular application courses e.g.- Windows, Linux, Microsoft Office, Openoffice, Quicken, Tax programs, etc.

-if they do not want a custom PC I will offer paid hardware and software/OS support i.e. no free-for-a-period-of-time

I don't know how well that will work out and I feel doubtful that I could learn enough to feel that I have sufficient knowledge to start such a business.

Also, what other popular computer degrees are there.. as I want to know something other than CS and IT.. as between CS and IT I would like CS more but I might like another degree more.

Frankly, if that's your career path, you won't really need any sort of formal education to do that. Certainly not a technical degree---perhaps a management degree might be better. I would caution you though that at you're age (I'm assuming you're ~18 ), you might know what you really want to do in life only to later on find it isn't.

To address your calculus concerns, calculus caries a stigma of being "oh noes really hard" but like every subject, it isn't. It just matters how motivated you are and if you apply yourself. Furthermore, calculus is not important for a CS/IT degree--they're just making you take it as a pre-requisite to weed out the unqualified and make you more rounded. Discrete mathematics will be more important to you.

I would definitely choose CS over IT. You'll graduate a much more attractive candidate if you choose to enter the work force. If not, you can pursue a Masters (and perhaps even a PhD) in CS. I really don't see someone majoring in IT going onany sort of secondary education---I don't think an IT degree sufficiently prepares one for that route.

I would also urge you to look into engineering degrees as well. I'm personally a Computer Science & Engineering (CSE) major so I get exposed both to the hardware and software side.

Whatever you choose, immerse yourself in it and you will do well!

billdotson
March 11th, 2007, 05:02 AM
yeah I am almost absolutely certain I want to do something with computers but I don't know the exact field.