What's Ubuntu's motto again...?

[olskar]

Hi! I found this comment about feisty.. I kind of agree with this..


I don't understand people's obsession with including free software. It must be free! There is no room for anything less in the OSS/FS movement. Who cares!? Ubuntu is all about making stuff work for people. If it means using proprietary software then that's a necessary evil. Of course free is better but what kind if principle is it to uphold when ultimately users suffer? A computer is supposed to be a tool to be used by anyone, not just *nix nerds. C'mon, get real people. Do you want more people to adobt Linux or not? Or do you not give a sh*t like most OSS deveopers and just care about yourselves, your nerd clique and your principles?

[mac.ryan]

Hi olskar... I am interested in knowing where you see yourself (or others) "suffering", in using free software.

In agree - if this is the sense of your post - on the fact that at times it makes sense to install some proprietary software rather than being "zealots" of the FLOSS (I work with and love very much ubuntu, but I also installed DVD codecs, google Earth and skype, for example).

On the other hand, it is not clear for me what you would expect from ubuntu: if you need proprietary software, you can install on ubuntu in the same way you can install free software, and where this is not possible and requires special procedures, you can even find scripts and people helping you out with the process... So, my question is: what would you expect more / what do you feel ubuntu is lacking in?

[olskar]

To listen to MP3 I have to do this:

1. Be angry because I dont see my MP3:s in rhytmbox and dont understand what is going on
2. Search google for a guide or something
3. Install the right packages

It might not be a problem for me but it might be for normal users that are used to just play them the way they used to in windows.

[Hendrixski]

:) It's good that you're angry! I'm angry too. I'm angry about the same things and I thought long and hard about who I am angry at. I realized that I am not angry at Ubuntu. I am not angry at people who want Ubuntu to be free of proprietary software.

I am ANGRY as HELL against the people who have designed the laws that make it impossible for me to listen to music that I purchased on my computer without all that mumbo jumbo. I am pissed off at the companies who make media formats that will only play on their music players, and nowhere else. I'm steamed that there are companies who would rather restrict how I listen to music, would confine me in a cage of non-interoperability, rather than give me a product that just works.

That's why I have switched to open formats like OGG, and why I tell everyone I know not to give in to corporate monopolies that make software that uses me instead of making software that I can use.

So Ubuntu should keep doing what it's doing and not give in. Because it will make people like you me angry, and we will learn from that anger and make the world a better place!

[mac.ryan]

To listen to MP3 I have to do this:

1. Be angry because I dont see my MP3:s in rhytmbox and dont understand what is going on
2. Search google for a guide or something
3. Install the right packages

Mmm... frankly speaking it doesn't sound to me as a specific problem of ubuntu or the FLOSS approach. I think it is rather the same when I get an open office document on a Window$ box and the system tells me "uh?!".

Before windows media player was installed by default in Window$, you had to get WinAmp or equivalent under Window$ too, if you wanted to listen to MP3...
And still now, whenever Window$ encounter a file extension it doesn't recognise, it can't help much but saying "try to look it up on the Internet".

However, I got your point and I partially agree with you. More specifically I agree on the point users could be made aware of what the problem is more straightforward (e.g. with an info box popping out, with explanation and link to online resources to fix the problem).

Most probably - if you don't know it already - you might get great satisfaction for the use of Automatix2 (http://getautomatix.com) (http://getautomatix.com%29), which I believe has been developed as an answer to demands like yours.

Free greetings! ;)

[saulgoode]

Mmm... frankly speaking it doesn't sound to me as a specific problem of ubuntu or the FLOSS approach. I think it is rather the same when I get an open office document on a Window$ box and the system tells me "uh?!".

There is a difference, though. The file format of OO documents is publicly available and unhindered by patents; the only thing preventing MSWord (or any other program) from using it is an unwillingness to support it. MP3s, on the other hand, are encumbered by multiple patents and, even though code has been written to support MP3, use of such code without licensing might infringe on those patents.

[mac.ryan]

There is a difference, though. The file format of OO documents is publicly available...

Sure! Although I would not define myself a zealot of FLOSS, I am absolutely with it and with the values and ideas it stands for... my comment was purely from a "suffering" perspective! :)

BTW, somewhere on the forum (sorry, I can't find the page anymore) I read a reply from the admins about the fact the forum software we are using is not free. The basic point was exactly that they gave priority to the "needed features" over strict adherence to the FLOSS principles...

[saulgoode]

BTW, somewhere on the forum (sorry, I can't find the page anymore) I read a reply from the admins about the fact the forum software we are using is not free. The basic point was exactly that they gave priority to the "needed features" over strict adherence to the FLOSS principles...

Again, there is a difference; though I recognize your point about "strict adherence". :)

UbuntuForums.org's choice to use proprietary "vBulletin" software is an option available to them on their Ubuntu-based server because they are a user of Ubuntu at that point. As a user, they have the freedom to use vBulletin (though I should not mind "suffering" the consequences if they were to choose a Free Sofftware solution). That is not to say that Ubuntu should be shipping disks with vBulletin on them because in that role they would be distributing proprietary software (which is not forbidden, but it would contradict Ubuntu's espoused philosophy).

EDIT: Just to be clear, the issue about MP3 support is about patents, not copyright -- Free Software is available which supports MP3 but distributing it might make Ubuntu liable for patent infringement (something over which MS has just been slapped a $1.5 billion fine, and they were actually trying to license their usage).

[Hendrixski]

Again, there is a difference; though I recognize your point about "strict adherence". :)

UbuntuForums.org's choice to use proprietary "vBulletin" software is an option available to them on their Ubuntu-based server because they are a user of Ubuntu at that point. As a user, they have the freedom to use vBulletin (though I should not mind "suffering" the consequences if they were to choose a Free Sofftware solution). That is not to say that Ubuntu should be shipping disks with vBulletin on them because in that role they would be distributing proprietary software (which is not forbidden, but it would contradict Ubuntu's espoused philosophy).

EDIT: Just to be clear, the issue about MP3 support is about patents, not copyright -- Free Software is available which supports MP3 but distributing it might make Ubuntu liable for patent infringement (something over which MS has just been slapped a $1.5 billion fine, and they were actually trying to license their usage).

that's a good point too. that floss shouldn't stop people from using non-OS software. Just because it's not in the distribution doesn't mean that you can't later add it to your copy of the distribution.

Microsoft's recent 1.5 billion lawsuit is a great example of how difficult it is for EVERYONE to live with these ridiculous restrictions. MS as a company is protecting itself by pushing their own WMV format, and we the users try to protect ourselves by pushing our own ogg format.

[DoctorMO]

In order to free the mp3 formats we have to do one of the following 3 things:

1) Skirt the parent by meticulously studying it and coding around the ideas that are protected (might not be possible without breaking laws of physics)
2) Wait until 2012 and 2020 for both the codec and compression patents to die
3) Raise enough money (millions) to go to court and fight the patents out.

Now honestly tell me that any of those strikes you as a fun way for a volunteer to spend his weekend?

My own feeling is that we should include lame (mp3 decoder) in Ubuntu and tell those patents where to shove it.

As for free software, well we didn't get here (good software) by giving up principles; we got here by being steadfast, resolute and cunning. But new users don't care about learning the lessons of the past they are greedy, short-sighted and misinformed. sometimes the tool just won't do the job no matter how much you scream at it.

[Hendrixski]

As for free software, well we didn't get here (good software) by giving up principles; we got here by being steadfast, resolute and cunning. But new users don't care about learning the lessons of the past they are greedy, short-sighted and misinformed. sometimes the tool just won't do the job no matter how much you scream at it.

YEAH!!! We made Linux great by refusing to give in to the marketing gimmicks and monopolies of the software world. We will continue to make Linux multimedia great by not giving in to the marketing gimmicks of the music world.

It may be a little bit of a hassle now to have to bypass their bull$}{|+ but in the long run it is well worth it. I say media without walls, and I'm willing to fight for it!

[banjobacon]

From Launchpad (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu):


The Ubuntu Distribution aims to produce a single-CD installable operating system that includes everything needed to run a typical desktop or server machine, anywhere in the world. We emphasise three things:

1. Free of Charge. Ubuntu is absolutely free of charge, and will remain that way.

2. Licence Freedom. Ubuntu includes only Free Software applications. You are free to modify or change any aspect of your Ubuntu system.

3. Ease of Use. We aim to make Ubuntu the easiest version of Linux to install and use immediately. We put a lot of effort into making sure that the default configuration is comprehensive but sane, so that you will find your new desktop familiar but not overwhelming.

Ubuntu also includes more software than any other operating system, on its network of software repositories. Once your system is installed you can simply call up a list of all the existing tools out there and choose any of them for immediate installation over the internet.

As much as the practicality of including proprietary software may appeal to some of us, one of Ubuntu's goals is to ship a 100% free software product.

[macogw]

In order to free the mp3 formats we have to do one of the following 3 things:

1) Skirt the parent by meticulously studying it and coding around the ideas that are protected (might not be possible without breaking laws of physics)
2) Wait until 2012 and 2020 for both the codec and compression patents to die
3) Raise enough money (millions) to go to court and fight the patents out.

Now honestly tell me that any of those strikes you as a fun way for a volunteer to spend his weekend?

My own feeling is that we should include lame (mp3 decoder) in Ubuntu and tell those patents where to shove it.

As for free software, well we didn't get here (good software) by giving up principles; we got here by being steadfast, resolute and cunning. But new users don't care about learning the lessons of the past they are greedy, short-sighted and misinformed. sometimes the tool just won't do the job no matter how much you scream at it.
i thought it was 2009 or 2010 for mp3 patents to die

[finferflu]

As for free software, well we didn't get here (good software) by giving up principles; we got here by being steadfast, resolute and cunning. But new users don't care about learning the lessons of the past they are greedy, short-sighted and misinformed. sometimes the tool just won't do the job no matter how much you scream at it.

I'm all for this!

[DoctorMO]

I'm all for this!

Screaming at tools or being greedy? :lolflag:


i thought it was 2009 or 2010 for mp3 patents to die

AFAIK - The encoding patent runs until 2012 and this new patent that MS got done for runs out in 2020.

[Lord Illidan]

In my case, for example, I do support free software, but there are cases where free software is just not good enough for my purposes.

Take mp3, for example. None of our multimedia players can play .ogg or .flac. And I am not that rich to stay buying a new player just for the sake of .ogg, and I don't want to convert everything to .ogg too.

I understand it is a powerful format, and probably I will buy a new multimedia player which supports .ogg when my current one breaks...but until then I make do with .ogg.

But then, there is the other issue...like video drivers. I've spoken on this before already. People can talk and talk and talk about the superiority of free software, but where it comes to video drivers...the opensource equivalent simply sucks in comparison with the propietary ones. They can barely handle a fast moving 2D desktop, let alone games, movies, and other stuff.

The philosophy is nice, but there has to be a tangible improvement, also.

[saulgoode]

Take mp3, for example. None of our multimedia players can play .ogg or .flac. And I am not that rich to stay buying a new player just for the sake of .ogg, and I don't want to convert everything to .ogg too.

The MP3 issue is not about Free vs. proprietary, there are excellent Free MP3 decoders and encoders. The issue is alleged claims that it is impossible to write an MP3 codec which would not infringe upon patents held by Fraunhaufer and/or Alcatel.

Personally, I have no predisposition to accept those claims and I am comfortable with using LAME. If a company wishes to back up their patent claims, I should be quite pleased to defend myself in court. I am sure that Chevy would claim that Ford includes some GM-patented technology in their vehicles but I am not going to let that claim prevent me from driving a Ford.

Nonetheless, I can understand Ubuntu's reluctance to place themselves in a vulnerable position whereby they might be charged with patent infringement (that is their decision).


But then, there is the other issue...like video drivers. I've spoken on this before already. People can talk and talk and talk about the superiority of free software, but where it comes to video drivers...the opensource equivalent simply sucks in comparison with the propietary ones. They can barely handle a fast moving 2D desktop, let alone games, movies, and other stuff.

If you decide to install proprietary drivers, that is your prerogative and I will steadfastly defend that right as being granted under GNU Public Licensing. What I will not do is support Ubuntu abandoning their expressed commitment to exclude such drivers from their distribution.

People who have contributed to Ubuntu's success haven't done so because they wanted to donate their time and talents to bolstering the bank accounts of NVidia or ATI stockholders. They did it under the assumption that Ubuntu would stand by its commitment to supporting Free Software. Reneging on that commitment is not an option.

[macogw]

In my case, for example, I do support free software, but there are cases where free software is just not good enough for my purposes.

Take mp3, for example. None of our multimedia players can play .ogg or .flac. And I am not that rich to stay buying a new player just for the sake of .ogg, and I don't want to convert everything to .ogg too.

I understand it is a powerful format, and probably I will buy a new multimedia player which supports .ogg when my current one breaks...but until then I make do with .ogg.

But then, there is the other issue...like video drivers. I've spoken on this before already. People can talk and talk and talk about the superiority of free software, but where it comes to video drivers...the opensource equivalent simply sucks in comparison with the propietary ones. They can barely handle a fast moving 2D desktop, let alone games, movies, and other stuff.

The philosophy is nice, but there has to be a tangible improvement, also.
.ogg is actually a better format than mp3. If you have an iPod or a one of a variety of other mp3 players (not a Creative Zen Vision:M though, I have one of those) you can put Rockbox on it and then it'll be able to play .ogg files and it'll even be running Linux :) Rockbox supposedly has better sound than many other mp3 players' firmware as well.

[scotty32]

i understand why people dont want properity stuff in ubuntu - and thats all well and good, it should use Open Source programs

BUT! being an ATI Graphics Card owner - properity is kind of needed.
i acctually havent been able to migrate to ubuntu from windows because of the my graphics card not working, it only works on VESA and its IMPOSSIBLE to use, it 'scrolls' and is far to annoying.

so if ubuntu put in the properity drivers into ubuntu and my GFX card works then i dont see the harm.

ive done millions of tutorials, used open source and properity drivers, and it never works, just get the black screen. i got it to work in dapper, but edgy refuses to accept ATI
so i personally WANT properity in ubuntu - so my GFX card works out-of-the-box

but i guess if you have an alternitive then you should use Open Source over properity.

[tbodine]

To listen to MP3 I have to do this:

1. Be angry because I dont see my MP3:s in rhytmbox and dont understand what is going on
2. Search google for a guide or something
3. Install the right packages

It might not be a problem for me but it might be for normal users that are used to just play them the way they used to in windows.

You want MP3 codecs install by default? Okay, have fun distributing those for free.

[tbodine]

.ogg is actually a better format than mp3. If you have an iPod or a one of a variety of other mp3 players (not a Creative Zen Vision:M though, I have one of those) you can put Rockbox on it and then it'll be able to play .ogg files and it'll even be running Linux :) Rockbox supposedly has better sound than many other mp3 players' firmware as well.

Wow, I was really sad after I found that I couldn't play .ogg's on my lame iPod(it's all I can afford -- it was free) so I've been using .mp3's. Thanks for the info, I'll look into it.

[banjobacon]

so if ubuntu put in the properity drivers into ubuntu and my GFX card works then i dont see the harm.

The harm is that this gives ATI and Nvidia no incentive to either: 1) develop free software drivers, or 2) help the free software community build drivers that are of decent quality.

[banjobacon]

you can put Rockbox on it and then it'll be able to play .ogg files and it'll even be running Linux :)

Do you mean Rockbox is based on Linux? It's not. There's a separate Linux on iPod project, but from what I've read, Rockbox is much better.

[mac.ryan]

I think ubuntu devs are doing a great job, I wouldn't like ubuntu to change anything in their mission, and I totally support those that in this thread who said recanting the committment to be free is not an option.

Yet, another point in the mission also says: "We aim to make Ubuntu the easiest version of Linux to install and use immediately", and this - in my opinion - can be improved without having to recant the freedom point.

Ubuntu is the linux distro of choice for those who wish to migrate to from Window$, but often these users are far from being linux geeks, and really get panicked when the system doesn't work "out of the box".

Traditionally, the way of doing of the FLOSS communities is often to deny the problems: "MP3s? Why the hell would you ever need such a stupid format? There are plenty of other better formats!" - "DVDs? Oh... it's their problem if they don't produce compatible DVDs..." - "Windows documents? There is latex that is soo much better! (this was common answer before sun released the source of staroffice...)".

Now, I think this is a counter-productive attitude in the case of ubuntu: people - to quote the mission statement - expect to use their computer immediately, and this means they expect something meaningful to happen when they click on DVDs or .mp3 files. Not to have an answer down the line "mp3? what is this stupid file?".

I think the priorities here would be:

to inform users about patented/copyrighted formats and the implications using these would have,
to give them options on how to get what they want (and most probably also need).An example could be: the user clicks on an MP3 file, and an interactive box pops up, with a brief explanation on why ubuntu doesn't open that file and:

the link to a detailed info page about audio formats and their related issues, pro and cons in the use of them, support forums, etc, etc...
the link to the community-maintained howto for installing MP3 software
the info for installing a (probably non-free) utility that will convert all the existing MP3 files on the hard drive into OGG ones. After all, freedoom tastes much better when it is chosen, rather than imposed.

Just my 2 cents...

[aysiu]

Now, I think this is a counter-productive attitude in the case of ubuntu: people - to quote the mission statement - expect to use their computer immediately, and this means they expect something meaningful to happen when they click on DVDs or .mp3 files. Not to have an answer down the line "mp3? what is this stupid file?".

I think the priorities here would be:

to inform users about patented/copyrighted formats and the implications using these would have,
to give them options on how to get what they want (and most probably also need).An example could be: the user clicks on an MP3 file, and an interactive box pops up, with a brief explanation on why ubuntu doesn't open that file and:

the link to a detailed info page about audio formats and their related issues, pro and cons in the use of them, support forums, etc, etc...
the link to the community-maintained howto for installing MP3 software
the info for installing a (probably non-free) utility that will convert all the existing MP3 files on the hard drive into OGG ones. After all, freedoom tastes much better when it is chosen, rather than imposed.

Just my 2 cents... You mean something like this?
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/easy-codec-installation

It happens already, by the way, in AmaroK on Edgy Eft (6.10).

Some users may be resistant to making things easier, but I think the developers are always working hard for improving Ubuntu's friendly face.

You can see more Feisty specs here:
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+specs

[macogw]

Do you mean Rockbox is based on Linux? It's not. There's a separate Linux on iPod project, but from what I've read, Rockbox is much better.

It's not? What's it run then? I thought Rockbox and iPod Linux were both forks of Podzilla.

Feisty has a metapackage to get all the codecs. Look: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28313023@N00/350208230/in/set-72157594466867001/

[mac.ryan]

You mean something like this?
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/easy-codec-installation

Exactly!!! :) Kudos to the devs!

[FyreBrand]

To listen to MP3 I have to do this:

1. Be angry because I dont see my MP3:s in rhytmbox and dont understand what is going on
2. Search google for a guide or something
3. Install the right packages

It might not be a problem for me but it might be for normal users that are used to just play them the way they used to in windows.No need to get angry, but you're right there is a need to learn some stuff. Ubuntu is a just works OS that does require some learning. I'm coming redefine "just works", for me at least, to mean that things will work but might require a little understanding on my part. Depending on which Ubuntu you use getting MP3's working isn't that hard, and with Feisty will become even easier.

The thing I love about Ubuntu is the incredible help system here in the forums. With a little patience, some searching, and occasionally having to make a post to ask a question, I have been able to solve most all of my problems. So no need to get too frustrated with getting music to play just read around the forums a bit and ask questions when stuff looks like techno babble speak.


Exactly!!! :) Kudos to the devs!
Yes, the dev team deserves a lot of thanks and praise. They are improving Ubuntu at a pretty decent rate while mucking through difficult issues like codecs, binary blobs, and commercial associations. It's not an easy job and I don't think they get enough thank yous.

[banjobacon]

It's not? What's it run then? I thought Rockbox and iPod Linux were both forks of Podzilla.

Rockbox is Rockbox.

And as far as I can tell, Podzilla is just a GUI for iPodLinux. No forks.

[AmyRose]

Sorry for bumping this, but I have a question...

You keep talking about not including proprietary software with the OS. Not that I'm complaining or anything, but don't several of the WiFi drivers included with Ubuntu have binary blobs?

I'm not upset by it, but I thought this deserved a mention. (I have Atheros in my laptop and like the out-of-the-box support.)

[jgrabham]

To listen to MP3 I have to do this:

1. Be angry because I dont see my MP3:s in rhytmbox and dont understand what is going on
2. Search google for a guide or something
3. Install the right packages

It might not be a problem for me but it might be for normal users that are used to just play them the way they used to in windows.

MS distributed mp3 codecs illegally with wmp10 and lost $1.52 billion in a lawsuite!!:D

[daynah]

I am what we are because we are what we all are

wait...

we are because of who we all are

we are what we are because of what we are

I am what I am because of what I make me to be

we are what we all are because of what I make us to be

... :(

[prizrak]

The harm is that this gives ATI and Nvidia no incentive to either: 1) develop free software drivers, or 2) help the free software community build drivers that are of decent quality.

This has been beaten to death. nVidia and AMD don't give a damn what driver you use. If you buy either of those brands you pay them money whether you use ati, nv, noveau or nVidia-glx, FGRLX driver. They just don't give a damn. If all Linux users were to give up those and inform nVidia and AMD of their decision and the reasoning behind it then they might care. Though desktop Linux being as tiny as it is they probably won't and stop making Linux drivers altogether. Have fun with VESA based Compiz ;)

[prizrak]

Sorry for bumping this, but I have a question...

You keep talking about not including proprietary software with the OS. Not that I'm complaining or anything, but don't several of the WiFi drivers included with Ubuntu have binary blobs?

I'm not upset by it, but I thought this deserved a mention. (I have Atheros in my laptop and like the out-of-the-box support.)

Yes. Ubuntu distributes certain closed firmware in order to get some of the things to work. It's not really the same as having proprietary software. According to what I heard the firmware in Wi-Fi cards that is closed is an FCC requirement.

[Hex_Mandos]

For those who say 'We didn't get to this point by giving up': What did GNU run on before Linux? Of course, the HURD was being developed, but proprietary software was necessary to make GNU run.

Right now, for desktop users, proprietary drivers and codecs are a necessity. I use as much FLOSS as I can. I agree that no proprietary applications should be included in Ubuntu. But if I had no way to make my 3d hardware work, I'd have to go back to Windows, where proprietary drivers would be the least of my worries.

If Linux ever grows to 10% of the desktop marketshare, THEN we might start an offensive against blobs and other proprietary nastiness. And we'd probably win. Right now, it's counterproductive for most of us.

[aysiu]

To listen to MP3 I have to do this:

1. Be angry because I dont see my MP3:s in rhytmbox and dont understand what is going on
2. Search google for a guide or something
3. Install the right packages

It might not be a problem for me but it might be for normal users that are used to just play them the way they used to in windows.
Fixed in Feisty Fawn--to be released this week.

[mac.ryan]

Yes. Ubuntu distributes certain closed firmware in order to get some of the things to work. It's not really the same as having proprietary software. According to what I heard the firmware in Wi-Fi cards that is closed is an FCC requirement.

BTW... From the official presentation (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-April/000276.html) of ubuntu 7.10 (gutsy gibbon):


Ubuntu 7.10 will feature a new flavour - as yet unnamed - which
takes an ultra-orthodox view of licensing: no firmware, drivers,
imagery, sounds, applications, or other content which do not include
full source materials and come with full rights of modification,
remixing and redistribution. There should be no more conservative home,
for those who demand a super-strict interpretation of the "free" in free
software. This work will be done in collaboration with the folks behind
Gnewsense.

[prizrak]

BTW... From the official presentation (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-April/000276.html) of ubuntu 7.10 (gutsy gibbon):

Yeah I know I read the release. It will be another version like Kubuntu or Edubuntu it won't replace the main Ubuntu that does ship with certain restricted stuff. You can make an argument about closed source video but Wi-Fi, well it pretty much HAS to work if you are going to use a laptop. (though it's quite easy to replace a Wi-Fi card on some of them).