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maniacmusician
February 26th, 2007, 03:07 AM
The title says it all. I just contacted Gateway about the possibilities of getting a refund for Vista on a laptop that I was considering buying from them. They made it pretty clear that there was no way I was going to get a refund from them, and that the price of the OS was included in the "base price."

I guess I'll be going to Dell then. At least they have a history of refunding useless Windows licenses. It's too bad; I do like Gateway products for the most part.

Ah well. I guess I'll be getting an Inspiron like all the regular Windows users. There is no way in hell though, that I am buying a laptop without getting a refund for Vista.

gradedcheese
February 26th, 2007, 03:21 AM
Hmm... what if you don't agree with the EULA? You then return the license to MS (or Gateway?), I don't think they can really flat out refuse what's in the EULA, though I haven't read the new EULA yet. They can definitely make it a hassle though.

You could try ordering from Lenovo, they seem to have a SuSE option for some ThinkPads, though their website makes it look like it's not really something you can buy. Whatever you buy, make sure it has Intel wireless ;)

MetalMusicAddict
February 26th, 2007, 03:24 AM
The clause is still in there.

maniacmusician
February 26th, 2007, 03:25 AM
Hmm... what if you don't agree with the EULA? You then return the license to MS (or Gateway?), I don't think they can really flat out refuse what's in the EULA, though I haven't read the new EULA yet. They can definitely make it a hassle though.

You could try ordering from Lenovo, they seem to have a SuSE option for some ThinkPads, though their website makes it look like it's not really something you can buy. Whatever you buy, make sure it has Intel wireless ;)
Of course, I'll only get Intel wireless.

The thing is, I don't really want to pay for an operating system, period. I'd take the lenovo deal if I used SuSE, but I really only use Ubuntu on production machines. A "No-OS" or "We'll refund you for that ****** windows license" is what I'm looking for. I was just reporting that Gateway says "No." So obviously, not buying from them.

I will check out Lenovo though, wonder if they have any new good stuff.

maniacmusician
February 26th, 2007, 03:26 AM
The clause is still in there.
It's more vague though, isn't it? If I remember correctly, it now states that there's a possibility of a refund. My understanding is that no one can enforce it.

Of course, I could just be making this stuff up.

gradedcheese
February 26th, 2007, 03:29 AM
The thing is, I don't really want to pay for an operating system, period. I'd take the lenovo deal if I used SuSE, but I really only use Ubuntu on production machines. A "No-OS" or "We'll refund you for that ****** windows license" is what I'm looking for. I was just reporting that Gateway says "No." So obviously, not buying from them.


SuSE is as good as a no-OS: it means you didn't pay for Windows, and that the hardware had to be Linux-supported to run SuSE in the first place. Just format it and install Ubuntu when you receive it. Also, I would choose a ThinkPad over a Dell or Gateway any day, but that's just me.

nonewmsgs
February 26th, 2007, 03:32 AM
Hmm... what if you don't agree with the EULA? You then return the license to MS (or Gateway?), I don't think they can really flat out refuse what's in the EULA, though I haven't read the new EULA yet. They can definitely make it a hassle though.

You could try ordering from Lenovo, they seem to have a SuSE option for some ThinkPads, though their website makes it look like it's not really something you can buy. Whatever you buy, make sure it has Intel wireless ;)

im so frustrated getting my wireless working that im looking at just buying one or more wireless cards. are intel linux-friendly?

the_darkside_986
February 26th, 2007, 03:34 AM
From what I've seen, Gateway's hardware and company are quite... crap. They can't do anything right, it seems. My friend, his mom ordered a PC specifically with Intel Pentium but they delivered one with Intel Celeron and wouldn't redo it. And the whole idea of the Gateway store that only helps Gateway customers--just plain stupid. So stupid that the one we had locally closed down after a while.

But Dell, their hardware isn't the best in the world but at least they will have the option of Suse Linux in desktops, according to a news release.

gradedcheese
February 26th, 2007, 03:40 AM
im so frustrated getting my wireless working that im looking at just buying one or more wireless cards. are intel linux-friendly?


Intel is very Linux-friendly, but they make onboard chipsets that you can't get in a plug-in card. You can see a list of wireless chipmakers and what I think of them (and read about WiFi in Linux in general) in this article I wrote (http://andrey.thedotcommune.com/wireless.html), if you wish. I offer some tips about getting a supported card and avoiding the pain for Broadcom and the like.



From what I've seen, Gateway's hardware and company are quite... crap


That's my impression of them from back in their "country store" days too, junk hardware. However I don't know what they are like now, in the offices you'll only see ThinkPads and Dells, and I've personally avoided Gateway anyhow. HP is supposedly the number one laptop seller now, combining HP and Compaq, but neither of those have been particularly impressive. Dell is alright for their Latitude line, I've seen some quality issues on the Inspiron though The ThinkPad is the ultimate perfect laptop, but now that the Chinese (Lenovo) own/design it, I am not sure that this will last for long :( The T60 already feels "less IBM" than the T43 did, at least to me.

H.E. Pennypacker
February 26th, 2007, 03:44 AM
I assume you've already looked into System76. If you've declined System76, Dell is not bad at all. I use my Dell Inspiron 2200 (which probably is no longer produced) every day. There are no hardware problems at all. Any problems I have are OS related.

MetalMusicAddict
February 26th, 2007, 03:52 AM
I use my Dell Inspiron 2200 (which probably is no longer produced) every day. There are no hardware problems at all. Any problems I have are OS related.

MetalMusicAddict is replacing his crap @$$ broadcom card in his Inspiron 2200 with a iw2200 card tomorrow. ;)

Polygon
February 26th, 2007, 04:00 AM
i read the vista eula online and the part about refunds is still there.

so if you still reject the eula... you should still get the refund.

ComplexNumber
February 26th, 2007, 04:02 AM
The title says it all. I just contacted Gateway about the possibilities of getting a refund for Vista on a laptop that I was considering buying from them. They made it pretty clear that there was no way I was going to get a refund from them, and that the price of the OS was included in the "base price."

I guess I'll be going to Dell then. At least they have a history of refunding useless Windows licenses. It's too bad; I do like Gateway products for the most part.

Ah well. I guess I'll be getting an Inspiron like all the regular Windows users. There is no way in hell though, that I am buying a laptop without getting a refund for Vista.
the best way to get results is to complain to the manager - the higher up they are the better. managers will do anything to avoid bad publicity, and a customer that makes a stink is a 'ticking time bomb' for them that needs to be 'defused'.
i have never heard of any one who has taken a complaint all the way up to the top to have been unsuccessful with their grievance yet.

darkhatter
February 26th, 2007, 04:13 AM
this is going to sound mean but if you don't want a windows don't buy a laptop with windows on it, harassing companies is wrong. Buy from a company that supports Linux.

jackrobinson
February 26th, 2007, 04:20 AM
Buy from a company that supports Linux.
I agree.. but sometimes.. small players just cannot compete with the big boys in the "bang for your buck" department (especially in the intermediate segment)... getting a refund for Windows aside.
P.S.: This holds true in the US. It might be different elsewhere.

darkhatter
February 26th, 2007, 04:31 AM
thats why I saw support the companies that sell Linux, so they can actually compete with the big guys

jackrobinson
February 26th, 2007, 04:33 AM
thats why I saw support the companies that sell Linux, so they can actually compete with the big guys
sounds very good on paper.. but its like saying : support the local boys and don't go to walmart... doesn't really work..

aysiu
February 26th, 2007, 04:35 AM
sounds very good on paper.. but its like saying : support the local boys and don't go to walmart... doesn't really work..
It doesn't? My wife and I try as much as possible to support local businesses. Yes, sometimes every now and then we go to a chain store or chain restaurant, but we also believe doing something is better than nothing... even if you can't do everything.

jackrobinson
February 26th, 2007, 04:38 AM
It doesn't? My wife and I try as much as possible to support local businesses. Yes, sometimes every now and then we go to a chain store or chain restaurant, but we also believe doing something is better than nothing... even if you can't do everything.
Nice to know that you do what you do... It only deserves applause.
However, market economics follow different rules.. nobility generally takes a backseat in that case.

darkhatter
February 26th, 2007, 04:38 AM
I'm not one to practise what I preach, I happen to own a Gateway laptop. its a nice piece of hardware but has crap linux support I still don't have sound...

maniacmusician
February 26th, 2007, 04:41 AM
thats why I saw support the companies that sell Linux, so they can actually compete with the big guys
I'd love to do that, but I don't have the financial freedom to go with whoever supports Linux best. Notebooks are already so expensive...

I took a look at Lenovo, though. I couldn't find anything that fit my needs...The Thinkpads seem to be more expensive than their Dell/other counterparts. I need something under $2,000 dollars, and I would prefer at least a 15" display. I'll look again in a day or so to make sure I haven't missed anything.

I also need to take another look at System76. Last time I checked their prices were definitely above my head, but I'll definitely look again.

I didn't expect this laptop to turn into a "help me shop for a laptop thread" :) a welcome surprise, I guess.

MetalMusicAddict
February 26th, 2007, 04:45 AM
Defiantly give Sysyem76 a look. I talk to those guys alot. I think at one time they had a forum users discount.

Under 2k is easily doable.

jackrobinson
February 26th, 2007, 04:47 AM
Under 2k is easily doable.
for an undergrad sophomore? I beg to differ..

aysiu
February 26th, 2007, 04:49 AM
Nice to know that you do what you do... It only deserves applause.
However, market economics follow different rules.. nobility generally takes a backseat in that case.
We're no saints, and Wal-Mart may not miss our business, but... I'd like to think it's making at least some impact--at least for the local businesses we support, if not the huge conglomerates we do not support.

jackrobinson
February 26th, 2007, 04:52 AM
We're no saints, and Wal-Mart may not miss our business, but... I'd like to think it's making at least some impact--at least for the local businesses we support, if not the huge conglomerates we do not support.
It's not about Wal-Mart missing our business (which probably it indeed won't). Its about the price-conscious among us (the majority) who get a much higher value for money at Wal-Mart.
This section of society wants quality (and sometimes quantity) at the cheapest price.

maniacmusician
February 26th, 2007, 04:54 AM
Defiantly give Sysyem76 a look. I talk to those guys alot. I think at one time they had a forum users discount.

Under 2k is easily doable.

I did just check out their Website. I remember looking at the Darter earlier and wasn't impressed, but it's starting to look pretty good now when I don't have many alternatives! :)

But seriously, I might get that Darter. A couple of points
- I would prefer to have an nVidia GPU instead of an intel one, but I can probably live with a GMA950.
- Also, how big exactly is 13.3"? I don't know if I'll like it that small...Is that even big enough to appreciate Beryl? ;)
- 1.5GBs of RAM. It's a small point, but I like my 2GBs :)

It comes out to about 1600 when I select the things I want. The only things that worry me are the ones I mentioned above, especially points 1 and 2.


We're no saints, and Wal-Mart may not miss our business, but... I'd like to think it's making at least some impact--at least for the local businesses we support, if not the huge conglomerates we do not support.

It's nice that you do that, and you're absolutely right; it doesn't make much impact in the big picture or to big companies, but the small folks that you do support appreciate it a lot, I'm sure.

slayerboy
February 26th, 2007, 05:01 AM
I would definitely stay away from Gateway. I used to do tech support for them. They bought eMachines a while back, and they've turned into utter garbage.

Dell just seems to make good computers. But, given the fact that System76 seems to have a decent price range for their laptops, IMHO, I'd go with them. The reason why I would stay away from Dell right now is you don't know how their hardware is going to work with Ubuntu. At least with System76, you KNOW the hardware is going to work out of the box, no configuration needed. I dunno man, to me that seems well worth a few extra $$ to save some time and hassle.

Lenovo is pretty good too, but I'm not big on Suse, and just because hardware works on Suse, doesn't mean it's going to work on Ubuntu, IMHO.

In the end, the choice is really up to you about this. I would rather look for a system with either no OS or Linux pre-installed instead of trying to haggle with MS or a vendor about getting a refund on Windows. Just remember, that systems without windows might end up costing more because bundled software + windows = better deals. It means the company is getting paid to include stuff like AOL, trials of Office and McAfee/Symantec, etc. There's not really an incentive for a company to provide a system with no OS or Linux unless the customer demand is extremely high. Dell is one of the first that has done this. I know HP was starting to do this with Debian, I'm not so sure how that works though, as I haven't seen HP's with no OS/Linux compared to Dell.

maniacmusician
February 26th, 2007, 05:04 AM
I would definitely stay away from Gateway. I used to do tech support for them. They bought eMachines a while back, and they've turned into utter garbage.

Dell just seems to make good computers. But, given the fact that System76 seems to have a decent price range for their laptops, IMHO, I'd go with them. The reason why I would stay away from Dell right now is you don't know how their hardware is going to work with Ubuntu. At least with System76, you KNOW the hardware is going to work out of the box, no configuration needed. I dunno man, to me that seems well worth a few extra $$ to save some time and hassle.

Lenovo is pretty good too, but I'm not big on Suse, and just because hardware works on Suse, doesn't mean it's going to work on Ubuntu, IMHO.

In the end, the choice is really up to you about this. I would rather look for a system with either no OS or Linux pre-installed instead of trying to haggle with MS or a vendor about getting a refund on Windows. Just remember, that systems without windows might end up costing more because bundled software + windows = better deals. It means the company is getting paid to include stuff like AOL, trials of Office and McAfee/Symantec, etc. There's not really an incentive for a company to provide a system with no OS or Linux unless the customer demand is extremely high. Dell is one of the first that has done this. I know HP was starting to do this with Debian, I'm not so sure how that works though, as I haven't seen HP's with no OS/Linux compared to Dell.
yeah, I agree with you on pretty much all points. Thanks for the tip about Gateway. I'll not be recommending them to anyone anytime soon.

I also agree with what you say about System76, but see my post above for my concerns.

MetalMusicAddict
February 26th, 2007, 05:20 AM
I'd love to do that, but I don't have the financial freedom to go with whoever supports Linux best. Notebooks are already so expensive...

I took a look at Lenovo, though. I couldn't find anything that fit my needs...The Thinkpads seem to be more expensive than their Dell/other counterparts. I need something under $2,000 dollars, and I would prefer at least a 15" display. I'll look again in a day or so to make sure I haven't missed anything.

I also need to take another look at System76. Last time I checked their prices were definitely above my head, but I'll definitely look again.

I didn't expect this laptop to turn into a "help me shop for a laptop thread" :) a welcome surprise, I guess.


Defiantly give Sysyem76 a look. I talk to those guys alot. I think at one time they had a forum users discount.

Under 2k is easily doable.


for an undergrad sophomore? I beg to differ..

Read again. He said it was his price-range. Hence the comment.

Also, if you buy System76 and you dont keep Ubuntu on it another distro will almost certainly work as well. ;)

Mateo
February 26th, 2007, 05:22 AM
I'd buy from System76 if they made any computers that looked like computers, and not vacuum cleaners or Futurama suicide booths.

tubasoldier
February 26th, 2007, 05:23 AM
It's not about Wal-Mart missing our business (which probably it indeed won't). Its about the price-conscious among us (the majority) who get a much higher value for money at Wal-Mart.
This section of society wants quality (and sometimes quantity) at the cheapest price.

ROTFLMAO! Before you get sucked into the "everything is cheaper at Wal-Mart" attitude, you really should go check out local stores. Wal-Mart has their items that are on sale that happen to be cheap garbage, but for the rest of the store it is the same price as local businesses. Its the sale that gets you in the door and the large selection that keeps you there.

But when it comes down to it all their other stuff is the same price and their customer service sucks.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/

H.E. Pennypacker
February 26th, 2007, 06:27 AM
I can't believe you're considering Gateway, and you're worried about the cost of a laptop. By considering Gateway, you've already gone up a class or two, because Gateway is definitely not the cheapest around.

Time and time again, I've found Dell to be most value oriented. It's hard to beat them, and there are many Dell Linux users around not having hardware problems. I've already told you about me.

adam.tropics
February 26th, 2007, 07:01 AM
It's a shame Gateway are gonna be 'difficult'. More a shame because back in the day, they used to build some pretty decent machines. I was quite impressed with the build quality, especially on their higher end desktops.

I say back in the day, because where Gateway are concerned, I am still stuck at "Gateway regrets to inform all our customers that it will no longer actively sell its products in the Asia Pacific...", but that was back in 2004.

maniacmusician
February 26th, 2007, 07:16 AM
I can't believe you're considering Gateway, and you're worried about the cost of a laptop. By considering Gateway, you've already gone up a class or two, because Gateway is definitely not the cheapest around.

Time and time again, I've found Dell to be most value oriented. It's hard to beat them, and there are many Dell Linux users around not having hardware problems. I've already told you about me.
Yeah, my bad. In my defense, Gateway used to be good. Really.


Read my posts on the last page for what I'm really thinking of buying.

SunnyRabbiera
February 26th, 2007, 08:37 AM
This really marks bad policy as HP, Dell and most other vendors offer vista refunds...

maniacmusician
February 26th, 2007, 08:42 AM
This really marks bad policy as HP, Dell and most other vendors offer vista refunds...
Yeah, after reconsidering my options and taking a look around at the most popular companies out there (Dell, HP, etc) for laptops, I've decided that I'll probably get the best bang for my buck at System76, as I mentioned on the previous page.

Right now, I'm torn between the Gazelle and the Darter (see my other thread in the Cafe about expansion slots for more info on that)

adam.tropics
February 26th, 2007, 09:03 AM
The idea of system76 is great, and I am sure they are doing great things. But until they can get into the notion that there is a world outside the US (yes there is!!), then for me at least, they remain just an 'idea'.

Quillz
February 26th, 2007, 09:04 AM
The idea of system76 is great, and I am sure they are doing great things. But until they can get into the notion that there is a world outside the US (yes there is!!), then for me at least, they remain just an 'idea'.
They don't ship outside the US? This is likely more of an economical issue since they are a small startup company. I'm sure if they had the funds, they would offer worldwide shipping.

John.Michael.Kane
February 26th, 2007, 01:59 PM
@maniacmusician heres a company that does no OS notebooks xtremenotebooks (http://www.xtremenotebooks.com/index.php?section=configurator&regular_model_id=1123&model_id=1124&include_type=centrino&category=) you can adjust the machine spec's to fit your needs.

adam.tropics
February 26th, 2007, 02:33 PM
They don't ship outside the US? This is likely more of an economical issue since they are a small startup company. I'm sure if they had the funds, they would offer worldwide shipping.

Not my thread, so I won't go on after this, but apparently it's something to do with ongoing concerns over how they could offer support etc. Much of which is moot, since they also only accept US forms of payment.

maniacmusician
February 26th, 2007, 06:30 PM
@maniacmusician heres a company that does no OS notebooks xtremenotebooks (http://www.xtremenotebooks.com/index.php?section=configurator&regular_model_id=1123&model_id=1124&include_type=centrino&category=) you can adjust the machine spec's to fit your needs.
Those are a bit out of my price range after customization :) I'm going for a T7200 processor, 2 GBs of RAM, good battery life, etc.

Right now I'm torn between the Darter and the Gazelle Value. Leaning towards the Darter. But I have 4 months to decide which one I want, heh.

tagginannie
February 27th, 2007, 02:58 AM
SuSE is as good as a no-OS: it means you didn't pay for Windows, and that the hardware had to be Linux-supported to run SuSE in the first place. Just format it and install Ubuntu when you receive it. Also, I would choose a ThinkPad over a Dell or Gateway any day, but that's just me.
I wouldn't buy any computer that comes with RH/SuSE or use any RPM based distro any more because of the Novell/Red Hat M$ deal.

Did you try any of the mom & pop computer stores? You can usually get a better deal from them because they take the time out to work with their customers to give them what they want unlike the national ones

slayerboy
February 27th, 2007, 04:04 AM
I wouldn't buy any computer that comes with RH/SuSE or use any RPM based distro any more because of the Novell/Red Hat M$ deal.

Did you try any of the mom & pop computer stores? You can usually get a better deal from them because they take the time out to work with their customers to give them what they want unlike the national ones

Without getting into a discussion about RPM distros and MS, I will just simply say that I agree with you and that's why I've switched to Ubunutu from PCLinuxOS.

A lot of the mom and pop stores do have good deals, but you have to watch, just like any other store online or brick-and-mortar. Today's consumer should NEVER go into any buying situation blindly anymore. There is too much useful (and sometimes useless) information on the net to make a better educated decision.

That being said, I would consider system76 similar to a mom and pop store, but on the net. I'm not sure there are a lot of mom and pop stores that would cater to the linux market. I could be wrong, but it's a far better business model to sell online if you're catering to a niche market like Linux users who refuse to use anything MS related. But it never hurts to look around. You can do research in the real world just as well as online, and it would give you even better results, IMHO.

DoctorMO
February 27th, 2007, 04:06 AM
I don't thin Red Hat entered into a deal with Microsoft.

aysiu
February 27th, 2007, 04:10 AM
The idea of system76 is great, and I am sure they are doing great things. But until they can get into the notion that there is a world outside the US (yes there is!!), then for me at least, they remain just an 'idea'.
There are a few vendors in other countries as well, for example:
http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/products/laptops/

A more comprehensive list of Linux and no-OS vendors can be found here:
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/23168/

hardyn
February 27th, 2007, 04:50 AM
most of the 'linux notebooks' are asus whitebooks (barebones notebooks) and they are available anywhere, and everywhere.

its up to the deal that you make with your reseller as to what comes in the was of OSes or even parts for that matter; just make sure that they are no ambiguities in your warranty agreement with your reseller.

gradedcheese
February 27th, 2007, 05:10 AM
most of the 'linux notebooks' are asus whitebooks (barebones notebooks) and they are available anywhere, and everywhere.

its up to the deal that you make with your reseller as to what comes in the was of OSes or even parts for that matter; just make sure that they are no ambiguities in your warranty agreement with your reseller.

Yes. System76 is also just packaging asus "white notebooks" just like the others. And no, RedHat entered no deal with MS, in fact they've very much opposed to what Novel pulled.

maniacmusician
February 27th, 2007, 05:32 AM
Yes. System76 is also just packaging asus "white notebooks" just like the others. And no, RedHat entered no deal with MS, in fact they've very much opposed to what Novel pulled.
well thats incorrect, they're actually not Asus notebooks...If I remember correctly, they're Quanta notebooks.

For more info, head over to the System76 Support subforum, look for aysiu's thread "Tell System76 about your experiences", he mentions in the first post what kind of Notebooks System76 really use.

aysiu
February 27th, 2007, 05:42 AM
Read more about Quanta here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanta_Computers
http://www.quantatw.com/Quanta/english/product/qci_nb.aspx

It's called an ODM (Original Design Manufacturer), which I'm guessing sells to OEMs, according to the Wikipedia entry on OEM:
The term Original Design Manufacturer (ODM) is used to describe companies that design and manufacture a product that is then sold under other brand names and does not necessarily acknowledge the Original Design Manufacturer brand. My guess is that it's very possible that ASUS is also one of Quanta's many clients (which include Dell, Apple, HP, and many other high-profile OEMs, according to Wikipedia).

damu
February 27th, 2007, 11:42 AM
Dell now sells laptop without any system pre installed (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6247)

steven8
February 27th, 2007, 11:50 AM
It is not a coincedence that the dell website was pounded by Linux users and cries for computers sold with no OS. People are fed up with MS. Simple as that.

Bartender
February 27th, 2007, 11:53 AM
Dell now sells laptop without any system pre installed (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6247)

Big deal. Check out what you pay for the no-OS version vs. with Windows pre-installed.

stimpsonjcat
February 27th, 2007, 12:08 PM
Big deal. Check out what you pay for the no-OS version vs. with Windows pre-installed.
The windows version costs $48 less. Apparently, a dell with windows is worth less than without.

slayerboy
February 27th, 2007, 01:14 PM
The windows version costs $48 less. Apparently, a dell with windows is worth less than without.
because of the software that's NOT bundled with the computer to get the cost of the consumer down lower. It's no lie that software bundled on a computer helps fund a little bit of the price for the consumer, even with windows on it. The manufacturers get a kickback for adding vendors' software program trials on the oem computers.