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mrbungle
February 22nd, 2007, 12:54 AM
i just bought a toshiba laptop a couple days ago and want to use ubuntu instead of vista which is preinstalled on it. i keep reading around the net where if you don't agree to there license you can get a refund. does anyone have some good info on this?

i haven't even turned on the laptop yet, thought i would see what my options are 1st.

:popcorn:

vigleik
February 22nd, 2007, 01:01 AM
An easy way to figure this out is to turn the laptop on and start the vista installation process. When you get to the EULA, read it carefully (maybe copy the relevant portions) and then decline it. If the EULA is as in XP you can claim a refund. Of course, it might not be easy to get the refund, and people seem to get varying amounts.

maniacmusician
February 22nd, 2007, 01:02 AM
haven't turned it on yet? wow, that's a lot of restraint.

But to answer your question, yeah, I've heard of people getting a refund because they never agreed to the license. I gotta warn you though, it will probably be very hard to get a refund and you'll have to send lots of angry emails and letters, make a lot of threats (not death threats), and generally, be prepared to tear your hair out.

edit: err oops forgot you were talking about Vista. That's a bummer, I don't know if that will be allowed. I remember reading somewhere that the refund clause had been omitted from the Vista EULA.

reyfer
February 22nd, 2007, 01:06 AM
You don't even have to power up the computer to read the EULA, you can read it here
http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20Vista_Home%20Premium_English_d16c019b-fa71-4fc9-a51d-a0621bddb153.pdf

mrbungle
February 22nd, 2007, 01:12 AM
well this is gonna be my wifes computer, so i can't touch it too much anyway :)

but i got her in to ubuntu and she is pretty good with with it, just hate to waste a vista license.



By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the
software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund
there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s
refund policies. See www.microsoft.com/worldwide. In the United States and Canada, call (800)
MICROSOFT or see www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm.


hmm it seems a return is possible, i don't mind a little fighting over the phone and email:lolflag:

vigleik
February 22nd, 2007, 01:13 AM
I found a pdf on microsoft's website that claims to be the EULA for vista home, home premium and ultimate. I found the following:


By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the
software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund
there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s
refund policies.

Let us know how it goes.

Edit: I see you found the same EULA I found.

mrbungle
February 22nd, 2007, 01:14 AM
yeah i am gonna give it a shot for sure and report my findings.

thanks for the pdf file.

weatherman
February 22nd, 2007, 09:49 AM
hmm it seems a return is possible, i don't mind a little fighting over the phone and email:lolflag:
use email instead of phone calls whenever you can.
take photos of you denying the eula.
search the internet for stories about people who got a refund.
good luck.

jay019
February 22nd, 2007, 11:48 AM
Geoffrey Bennett got a refund from Toshiba for the Windows software he didn't need. Read about it here. (http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html)

It was for Windows 98, but it seems the EULA has still got the refund clause. Be carefull though, be prepared to spend the next year or so of your life getting back the money you deserve. Good luck, I hope to hear you had a good outcome.

My machine was a display model so I didn;t get the chance to choose to agree to an EULA or not, otherwise I would be asking for my money back too. Ubuntu does everything I need and nothing I don't (virus/trojan/spyware/phoning home etc.)

Jay

mrbungle
February 22nd, 2007, 06:22 PM
thanks for the info and links. i've been scouring google alot of late looking for more success storys. i don't mind waiting around for the refund while i am using a ubuntu :popcorn:

jay019
March 18th, 2007, 11:04 AM
Had any luck with the refund?

ComplexNumber
March 18th, 2007, 11:12 AM
this (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,1000000091,39286228,00.htm) maybe a useful reference for those wanting naked PC's(ie PCs sold without an OS).

Solicitous
March 18th, 2007, 11:25 AM
I bought myself a Toshiba Satellite M110 a couple of months ago. Came with XP Home. When I opened up the box at home and pulled the laptop out, and the protective bag which the laptop was in had a yellow sticker on it (which required tearing to open the bag) stating something along the lines of;

The computer is installed with Windows due to customer demand. Toshiba will not grant the purchaser any refund for software or hardware removed from the system yadda yadda yadda.....return the product if you don't accept. (my simplified version).

So basically whilst the EULA for Windows might state that you can return an unused windows license for a refund, Toshiba had already put their own law forward saying they wont grant it.

Might be of use I spose.

jay019
March 18th, 2007, 12:40 PM
Yeah, toshiba refused my request for a refund. May try getting it from Microsoft direct or info on transferring the licence to a pc i dont like as much.

Solicitous
March 19th, 2007, 02:07 AM
I see you have the same Toshiba as I do. Out of curiosity how have you gone configuring and getting all of the hardware working on yours??

jay019
March 19th, 2007, 02:24 AM
It mostly just works except the stupid winmodem. I have even had success running Beryl although it sometimes crashes, but at least it doesnt bring down the whole system with it.

I have used the Network port to print to my Lexmark E120n (had to search for a decent cups driver), the wireless works.

The sound works although it does stop if I use hibernate. I did notice your post in another thread with a fix for this. Only wish it could be done automatically on wakeup.

I haven't tried the Card reader, but usb sticks and mice work perfectly. I also havent tried an external monitor or the S-Video output.
I also haven't tried any of the function keys, so if they dont work I'm not really missing anything.
I heard I could update the BIOS, but that kind of worries me a bit. If it aint (too) broke I wont fix it :)

But in general I have had no problems with it.

Jay

WalmartSniperLX
March 19th, 2007, 02:41 AM
I wouldnt bother with a refund. People fail to relize even if they're not agreeing to a MS agreement during the purchase of the laptop, they're purchasing EVERYTHING including Vista and the hardware as a SINGLE PRODUCT. Asking for a refund for Vista on a preinstalled system is like buying a new car but asking for a refund on the upholstry simply because you dont want it. An OEM manufacturer has no obligation to fulfill any refunds

jay019
March 19th, 2007, 02:44 AM
Ah sorry, but yes they do. If the "upholstery" comes with a license saying that you may get a refund if you choose to not use said upholstery and use something different.

WalmartSniperLX
March 19th, 2007, 02:49 AM
Ah sorry, but yes they do. If the "upholstery" comes with a license saying that you may get a refund if you choose to not use said upholstery and use something different.

If that is true then why do so many people get turned down with their refunds? Im sorry but I have not seen that line in any agreement with any OEM manufacturer. If you print me the agreement here and i see it Ill drop my case :P

jay019
March 19th, 2007, 03:00 AM
If that is true then why do so many people get turned down with their refunds? Im sorry but I have not seen that line in any agreement with any OEM manufacturer. If you print me the agreement here and i see it Ill drop my case :P

EDIT: sorry I might be misunderstanding ... is a refund thru MS or the OEM manufacturer?

OK, maybe we are both right. The agreement (as refered to thus... http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx ) does state "YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE." It is a bit of a grey area due to the last two words "IF APPLICABLE", but from what I can tell you are offered the chance of a refund if you do not agree to the EULA. Actually getting that refund is another story.

I also check the EULA in my OEM version of XP and it states the same line as above. (Something like /media/sda1/WINDOWS/system/eula.txt)

BUT, I am talking about XP here so it may have changed with XP Service Pack 3 (oops, i mean Vista)

WalmartSniperLX
March 19th, 2007, 03:05 AM
OK, maybe we are both right. The agreement (as refered to thus... http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx ) does state "YOU AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THIS EULA BY INSTALLING, COPYING, OR OTHERWISE USING THE SOFTWARE. IF YOU DO NOT AGREE, DO NOT INSTALL, COPY, OR USE THE SOFTWARE; YOU MAY RETURN IT TO YOUR PLACE OF PURCHASE FOR A FULL REFUND, IF APPLICABLE." It is a bit of a grey area due to the last two words "IF APPLICABLE", but from what I can tell you are offered the chance of a refund if you do not agree to the EULA. Actually getting that refund is another story.

I also check the EULA in my OEM version of XP and it states the same line as above. (Something like /media/sda1/WINDOWS/system/eula.txt)

BUT, I am talking about XP here so it may have changed with XP Service Pack 3 (oops, i mean Vista)

Thanks for looking for the agreement. Right, there is an agreement but that is for someone purchasing a MS product (in this case Windows) and then installing it themself. An OEM manufacturer pre-installs Windows and therfore agreeing to the MS terms, and ultimately leaving the buyer of the prebuild OEM computer helpless to get any refund since Windows was already installed on the pc by the manufacturer, which voids any refund. It is by courtesy that the OEM manufacturer gives you your money back since the agreement is really between MS and the OEM Manufacturer.

joe.turion64x2
March 19th, 2007, 03:54 AM
Geoffrey Bennett got a refund from Toshiba for the Windows software he didn't need. Read about it here. (http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html)

It was for Windows 98, but it seems the EULA has still got the refund clause. Be carefull though, be prepared to spend the next year or so of your life getting back the money you deserve. Good luck, I hope to hear you had a good outcome.

My machine was a display model so I didn;t get the chance to choose to agree to an EULA or not, otherwise I would be asking for my money back too. Ubuntu does everything I need and nothing I don't (virus/trojan/spyware/phoning home etc.)

Jay
Perhaps you can use the restore CDs to return it to its initial state. My Acer machine allows me to allow/reject EULA when I use them, perhaps your machine does too. Or is it too late to reject the EULA?

jay019
March 19th, 2007, 05:56 AM
Perhaps you can use the restore CDs to return it to its initial state. My Acer machine allows me to allow/reject EULA when I use them, perhaps your machine does too. Or is it too late to reject the EULA?

I'd be doing that in court if it came to that. But Toshiba are saying that according to their EULA i dont have any such rights. Seeking legal advice at the moment.

jay019
March 19th, 2007, 05:59 AM
Thanks for looking for the agreement. Right, there is an agreement but that is for someone purchasing a MS product (in this case Windows) and then installing it themself. An OEM manufacturer pre-installs Windows and therfore agreeing to the MS terms, and ultimately leaving the buyer of the prebuild OEM computer helpless to get any refund since Windows was already installed on the pc by the manufacturer, which voids any refund. It is by courtesy that the OEM manufacturer gives you your money back since the agreement is really between MS and the OEM Manufacturer.

Sorry, but as I told you the agreement is worded EXACTLY the same on the Windows partition on an OEM machine. If you have an OEM copy of windows, check for yourself at C:\Windows\system32\eula.txt

And no, the agreement is between Microsoft and the End User (hence End User Licence Agreement) not OEMLA. The fact that the OEM agreed to this licence has nothing at all to do with me the END USER.

WalmartSniperLX
March 19th, 2007, 11:14 AM
Sorry, but as I told you the agreement is worded EXACTLY the same on the Windows partition on an OEM machine. If you have an OEM copy of windows, check for yourself at C:\Windows\system32\eula.txt

And no, the agreement is between Microsoft and the End User (hence End User Licence Agreement) not OEMLA. The fact that the OEM agreed to this licence has nothing at all to do with me the END USER.

I know what the EULA is. And I know what a End User is (its anyone who uses a product that isnt a reseller) I forgot about the OEM License. >.< Which allows distribution to a user who then is affected by the EULA. That is where I tripped at.

All I can say is good luck if you've already turned on a pc inwhich you wish to get your refund on (the os). :P

You were right about that

OffHand
March 19th, 2007, 11:22 AM
An OEM manufacturer has no obligation to fulfill any refunds

Says who?

WalmartSniperLX
March 19th, 2007, 11:27 AM
Says who?

An OEM manufacturer who declines refunds by contract... or has no return policy (sarcasm) :D


As I posted above I forgot about the seperate OEM Agreement license which lead me to believe that the EULA is with whoever first opens a MS Windows Package and installs it, but an OEM installation comes with an OEM License :S thats what I forgot and was mislead to. >.< I should have known better | I built systems with OEM installations before.

EDIT: I really did trip bad on this one. >.< Im looking at one of my OEM packages now and im reading the OEM System Builder License haha. Thanks you guys (people in this thread and on the forums in general) for always being kind to jack@sses like myself :P

OffHand
March 19th, 2007, 11:44 AM
An OEM manufacturer who declines refunds by contract... or has no return policy


As I posted above I forgot about the seperate OEM Agreement license which lead me to believe that the EULA is with whoever first opens a MS Windows Package and installs it, but an OEM installation comes with an OEM License :S thats what I forgot and was mislead to. >.< I should have known better | I built systems with OEM installations before.

EDIT: I really did trip bad on this one. >.< Im looking at one of my OEM packages now and im reading the OEM System Builder License haha. Thanks you guys (people on the forums) for always being kind to jack@sses like myself :P


Sorry, but as I told you the agreement is worded EXACTLY the same on the Windows partition on an OEM machine. If you have an OEM copy of windows, check for yourself at C:\Windows\system32\eula.txt

It's the same license. Besides that, even an EULA is bound by the law.

elephant007
March 22nd, 2007, 12:08 AM
I wasn't able to get a refund for Vista pre-installed on a laptop I purchased from Dell, they did give me a 55 dollar inconvenience refund though.. Read My Story (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=389590&highlight=vista+refund)
Although Dell DID NOT say here's a refund for your OS, I'm taking it as a refund for Vista.

As for the car analogy, well it would be a good one except unlike cars, you ONLY have the choice of Microsoft OS on a pre-installed computing device. Try ordering a device without an O/S... OEM's should give options for O/S, they don't. We are "forced" to use faulty products.

As far as the EULA goes, I'm sure that if you wanted to spend the $$$ to take it to court, you could find an attorney to beat the EULA, by default a court looks at a contract as something written in favor of the contract writer. So basically if I write a contract and have someone else sign it, the court will automatically believe that I wrote it in favor of me and gave complete disregard for the person signing the contract.

To sum it up, ask nicely for a refund, let them know that the product is faulty... I hope there's a Recall issued!! HA HA