Do We Really Need Linux in the Desktop?

[hk_2999]

It might seem odd for me to question that, but really, if you have a problem in windows and you google that problem you will bump a hundred pages, none of which are of any use, and how about all those script kiddies who will abuse linux' open-source code to make web attacks?

Isn't it better to have Linux as it is right now with a small user base and intelligent, responsible ubuntizens that are really helpful and knows their stuff than having a 50+% market share and having flamers, trolls and not-so-intelligent, not-very-responsible, not-so-respectful users?

Maybe we'll realize it once we're on top, while the mac and other underdogs will be the next to have the most-intelligent-citizen user base linux currently enjoys now.

So I've got to say, shouldn't we just leave the ordinary-joes and the not-so-ordinary-joes with Windows?

[BWF89]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.

[NewOldTimer]

If you can read, Thank a Teacher

[beercz]

..... young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new .....
I resent this remark!!

I am 45, married with 2 children, have been working in IT for over 15 years in a variety of roles including network management, hardware and software support and software development. I am currently the IT Director for a construction design company.

I have several IT qualifications and have recently completed a Master's Degree in Distributed Systems and Networks (aged 44), and before that Completed a 1st Class Honours Degree in Computer Science (both part-time btw).

I have used Windows and Unix systems, dabbled with Apple Macs and have been a Linux user since 2001, using Debian and more recently Ubuntu. I am a full time linux user at home, and am mostly so at the office (although at the office I have to use Windows occasionally for specialist applications).

Remember us "middle aged and old" people have a lot of experience and can pass on the benefit of our experience to others.

Who says I am not willing to learn anything new? We are all learning all the time, if we didn't we would not make progress, in whatever field.

[nalmeth]

Yeah, I think it is an advantage as a whole for us to remain smaller, and more tightly knit group.

A mass adoption would cause such chaos. I would love to see people adopting GNU/Linux, but it has to be done right to go smoothly.

Really, if we were just big enough that manufacturers took us seriously and threw us some specs to help work their hardware, I couldn't be any happier.

I'm not really concerned that joe-shmoe is using GNU/Linux, unless he appreciates and values the software and its freedoms, he probably won't be interested anyway.

[Xzallion]

It might seem odd for me to question that, but really, if you have a problem in windows and you google that problem you will bump a hundred pages, none of which are of any use, and how about all those script kiddies who will abuse linux' open-source code to make web attacks?

Isn't it better to have Linux as it is right now with a small user base and intelligent, responsible ubuntizens that are really helpful and knows their stuff than having a 50+% market share and having flamers, trolls and not-so-intelligent, not-very-responsible, not-so-respectful users?

Maybe we'll realize it once we're on top, while the mac and other underdogs will be the next to have the most-intelligent-citizen user base linux currently enjoys now.

So I've got to say, shouldn't we just leave the ordinary-joes and the not-so-ordinary-joes with Windows?

Are you saying linux is only for intelligent people? First there are many, many sites with information regarding windows tech support. I have no problem finding them on Google, and I'm going to guess you may need to work on your search engine queries. Also, linux evolves by the suggestions and implementations of many many coders and users. Without the "Joe user" a lot of ideas would be lost. Script kiddies are the same no matter what OS they use. If they are doing it on Linux, they are or were doing it on windows also.

Your coming across as elitist. Linux is open, free for everyone. Let Joe user have his fun too.

[tigerpants]

It might seem odd for me to question that, but really, if you have a problem in windows and you google that problem you will bump a hundred pages, none of which are of any use, and how about all those script kiddies who will abuse linux' open-source code to make web attacks?

Isn't it better to have Linux as it is right now with a small user base and intelligent, responsible ubuntizens that are really helpful and knows their stuff than having a 50+% market share and having flamers, trolls and not-so-intelligent, not-very-responsible, not-so-respectful users?

Maybe we'll realize it once we're on top, while the mac and other underdogs will be the next to have the most-intelligent-citizen user base linux currently enjoys now.

So I've got to say, shouldn't we just leave the ordinary-joes and the not-so-ordinary-joes with Windows?

I dont understand how the term "market share" can be relevant to linux.

Market share is only relevant to a corporation selling a product. Its not relevant to a product that is produced by a community of volunteers. Linux can have a user base of 30 people, 30,000 or 30 million people - numbers are not a factor for a community driven product because no matter how many people use it, it will always be there. Someone somewhere always produce something to give away for free. And there will always be people willing to help.

Linux users always boast about how free they are from windows, yet they seem to spend so much time obssessing about its future - why does it matter anymore? You're free of windows, it shouldn't be a concern anymore. I couldn't give a monkeys about the fortunes of MS. Its not relevant to me anymore, I don't use their products and never will.

Linux will grow or die irrespective of the fortunes of Mac OSX or Windows. If it does die, something else will replace it. If Windows dies, something will replace that too. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because there will always be free software and there will always be an alternative.

[shining]

I dont understand how the term "market share" can be relevant to linux.

Market share is only relevant to a corporation selling a product. Its not relevant to a product that is produced by a community of volunteers. Linux can have a user base of 30 people, 30,000 or 30 million people - numbers are not a factor for a community driven product because no matter how many people use it, it will always be there. Someone somewhere always produce something to give away for free. And there will always be people willing to help.

Linux users always boast about how free they are from windows, yet they seem to spend so much time obssessing about its future - why does it matter anymore? You're free of windows, it shouldn't be a concern anymore. I couldn't give a monkeys about the fortunes of MS. Its not relevant to me anymore, I don't use their products and never will.

Linux will grow or die irrespective of the fortunes of Mac OSX or Windows. If it does die, something else will replace it. If Windows dies, something will replace that too. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because there will always be free software and there will always be an alternative.

I don't see how it could ever be totally irrelevant, since there will always be a contact with corporations. For the hardware first. But it's also possible with the software, you can have commercial proprietary software running on linux.

[ddaedalus]

It might seem odd for me to question that, but really, if you have a problem in windows and you google that problem you will bump a hundred pages, none of which are of any use, and how about all those script kiddies who will abuse linux' open-source code to make web attacks?

Isn't it better to have Linux as it is right now with a small user base and intelligent, responsible ubuntizens that are really helpful and knows their stuff than having a 50+% market share and having flamers, trolls and not-so-intelligent, not-very-responsible, not-so-respectful users?

Maybe we'll realize it once we're on top, while the mac and other underdogs will be the next to have the most-intelligent-citizen user base linux currently enjoys now.

So I've got to say, shouldn't we just leave the ordinary-joes and the not-so-ordinary-joes with Windows?

I must admit, I also thought of this. To get to the mainstream, Linux must be easier to use. And the current trend is that for every stupid thing you get a GUI-Interface. I wouldn't mind, but when some things are only doable through a GUI, you lose a big bunch of configurability. And I like my console. *And* I like that I am able to download a DVD, burn it and then shutdown my pc using a script. The time will come where certain features are only availible using a GUI. Look at Amarok. I love Amarok, but I'd like to use also through a DBUS-Interface in a client-server model in pure console. Why? Because my Server is hooked up to my hi-fi system. This kinda p***** me off.
( How do I use a German-English dictionary? -> agrep -B "<word>" de-en.txt )
And I am *not* a console freak.

Another thing is that, Linux features and specs are in constant flux. This is a *good* thing. To appeal to less experienced users, the interface to the computer have to be stable.

Therefore, when my friends ask me about linux, I say that they should first get to know their own computers and basic skills using them.

But I think, that when Linux really reaches mainstream the problem with hardware drivers will be solved, making alternatives like Haiku less painful to use.

Just my 2c

edit: Looks like I took my time to write this. Its not about elitarism. It just that i've found a system/platform I feel *very* comfortable with, and I am scared that mass adoption will turn this into Windows with a Linux Kernel.

[Tobster]

I love Ubuntu but Linux does have it weakness. I was determined to go Open Source but I only know Windows and the Classic Apple.

I had to buy an HP printer and bin my new Lexmark printer/ scanner unit. My Virgin Media (used to know as NTL) modem did not work. I had to use Windows to install the drivers also Virgin does not support Linux.

It look me days on my PC to work out how to install media codec.

So I can see why new user are scared off. But I have enjoyed learning about GNOME, KDE and Enlightenment and I love reading my Linux Magazine and driving people mad because I just can't stop talking about Ubuntu (really I should work for Ubuntu I been told a million times over! lol)

But the thing Linux (hopefully Ubuntu) became a really standard say 60% of people useing Ubuntu hardware manufactures will start to support Linux and ISP like Virgin would start to support Linux so the more people that use Linux the better :)

Toby

[xb12s]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.

Just because you are young does not mean you must be stupid, BWF89.
Everyone grows older, BWF89, but not everyone grows up.

[jongkind]

I resent this remark!!


Agree, I feel the same way with my 41 years + 3 kids (all using ubuntu).

[Bloch]

I think the more user-friendly and the more users ubuntu has the better, without a doubt. A lot of the previous comments have been from the perspective of people in the wealthier part of the world, where usage of desktop Linux is motivated by principles/politics/geek factor.
There are countries that need a viable alternative to Windows which doesn't hold them to ransom. The basic computer technologies are stabilising and I see nothing wrong in users wanting a system that simply works for all reasonably standard peripheries and websites.

The "geeky" cutting edge excitement of linux is only one part of the appeal, and there will always be new distros or BSD to satisfy these users.

In the near future "Windows" may become an interface to a home entertainment system, and those who wish to use a computer as a general computer will run linux.

The main thing is to break the unhealthy monopoloy, and every monopoly is unhealthy, of having one operating system across the globe. Look at what Linux/open source has already achieved in breaking the hegemony of MS office, leveraging prices for large organisations, enabling web hosting for smalltime developers, promoting open standards, revitalising old computers in poorer countries etc etc. Long may it continue.

[muguwmp67]

I'm sorry, but I'm 40 and I do understand his remark. There are a lot of people my age and older that still struggle with windows. I'm not sure a 40 year old computer enthusiast/professional is a fair example of the average user.

I'm still learning linux, and try to read the newbie threads to see where/if I can help anyone. Its frustrating though.

Look at this thread I saw a posted last night about a guy running gnome who was not seeing his title bars.
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=363314&highlight=title+bar

If you don't want to read the whole thing, the punch line 4 posts later was:


sry, i didnt mention this earlier, im running beryl and i have title bars in gnome but not in beryl
Maybe he was doing the 'help me I've fallen and can't get up' troll walk. But we see these kinds of posts every day. I think part of learning linux (right now, at least) is learning to help yourself. It seems like most people in the beginner forum don't even recognize that they are being helped by volunteers. The support this community offers is extraordinary, but I'm not sure we have the patience to deal with these kinds of users every day.

The linux desktop does need to be easier to configure. It also needs something that the community can't offer, and that is a professional support center. I'm not sure on the professional support option, but I do think that ubuntu is making more headway than any other distro when it comes to ease of configuration.

There are and will be other distros for those who are more technically inclined and interested in 'tweaking' but Linux needs a user-friendly distro like Ubuntu. This is especially important because:


The main thing is to break the unhealthy monopoloy, and every monopoly is unhealthy, of having one operating system across the globe.

[seijuro]

I could care less if Linux takes over half of the desktop market or not, so long as it continues to remain reliable/stable, does what I want and stays free.

[IYY]

For me, Linux becoming mainstream would only be bad news. Why? Well, people would start writing Linux viruses, interfaces would become more dumbed-down, the plain text configuration files will be replaced with binary files or difficult to read XML files (this is already happening in Ubuntu's fstab and Gnome's gconf), there will no longer be Linux users groups where I can meet interesting people... Nothing good for me.

And still, I promote Linux and try to get it to be as widespread as possible. Why do I do this? First of all, I want people to be happy, and they are not happy with Windows (and never will be). I want people to be in control of their own desktops. I also want a world where standards are respected, and cross-platform applications are embraced. I want a world where America, Cuba and Africa can have an equal chance for a legal IT infrastructure. Shortly, I want open source and Freedom with a capital F. I believe that Linux dominating the desktop is a step in that direction.

[MetalMusicAddict]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new)


I resent this remark!!

I am 45, married with 2 children, have been working in IT for over 15 years in a variety of roles including network management, hardware and software support and software development. I am currently the IT Director for a construction design company.

I have several IT qualifications and have recently completed a Master's Degree in Distributed Systems and Networks (aged 44), and before that Completed a 1st Class Honours Degree in Computer Science (both part-time btw).

I have used Windows and Unix systems, dabbled with Apple Macs and have been a Linux user since 2001, using Debian and more recently Ubuntu. I am a full time linux user at home, and am mostly so at the office (although at the office I have to use Windows occasionally for specialist applications).

Remember us "middle aged and old" people have a lot of experience and can pass on the benefit of our experience to others.

Who says I am not willing to learn anything new? We are all learning all the time, if we didn't we would not make progress, in whatever field.

Oh come on beercz. You know your totally the exception. :) Though I often see the immaturity in his statements Id say for the most part BWF89's opinion here holds true. At lease when it comes to people and computers. ;)

[harley_frog]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.

[Cranky Old Man Voice]
Why, you young pups think you know so much. Why, in my day, we didn't have all these fancy computers. We used an abacus. http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20040309 Why, I remember my first abacus. Made it myself; carved out of a single piece of hickory from a tree in my daddy's backyard that was struck by lightning. And if we wanted to upgrade, we just added a second abacus. http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20040308
[/Cranky Old Man Voice]

[bobbybobington]

Mass adoption of desktop linux would be great! Sure there would be more noobs, but a lot of those noobs would learn and in turn help out. There would also be more viruses, but i don't think it could ever be worse than windows plus more eyes looking at the code would make it more secure. If any major OEMs got into desktop linux, they would also take a lot of the support issues. This is the great thing about open source, people are free to adapt. Tomorrow s adoption will not rely on todays support, I doubt we will have much trouble adapting.

[Shay Stephens]

So I've got to say, shouldn't we just leave the ordinary-joes and the not-so-ordinary-joes with Windows?

If Ubuntu becomes too pedestrian for you, there is always gentoo! ;)

[Tuna-Fish]

http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/world-domination/world-domination-201.html

[hk_2999]

For me, Linux becoming mainstream would only be bad news. Why? Well, people would start writing Linux viruses, interfaces would become more dumbed-down, the plain text configuration files will be replaced with binary files or difficult to read XML files (this is already happening in Ubuntu's fstab and Gnome's gconf), there will no longer be Linux users groups where I can meet interesting people... Nothing good for me.

And still, I promote Linux and try to get it to be as widespread as possible. Why do I do this? First of all, I want people to be happy, and they are not happy with Windows (and never will be). I want people to be in control of their own desktops. I also want a world where standards are respected, and cross-platform applications are embraced. I want a world where America, Cuba and Africa can have an equal chance for a legal IT infrastructure. Shortly, I want open source and Freedom with a capital F. I believe that Linux dominating the desktop is a step in that direction.

Well said! :popcorn:

[RAV TUX]

It might seem odd for me to question that, but really, if you have a problem in windows and you google that problem you will bump a hundred pages, none of which are of any use, and how about all those script kiddies who will abuse linux' open-source code to make web attacks?

Isn't it better to have Linux as it is right now with a small user base and intelligent, responsible ubuntizens that are really helpful and knows their stuff than having a 50+% market share and having flamers, trolls and not-so-intelligent, not-very-responsible, not-so-respectful users?

Maybe we'll realize it once we're on top, while the mac and other underdogs will be the next to have the most-intelligent-citizen user base linux currently enjoys now.

So I've got to say, shouldn't we just leave the ordinary-joes and the not-so-ordinary-joes with Windows?with only reading the OP and not reading the rest of the post....I have to say very interesting perspective....:popcorn:

[RAV TUX]

If Ubuntu becomes too pedestrian for you, there is always gentoo! ;)My thoughts exactly:)

[Coelocanth]

I resent this remark!!

I second that sentiment.

I'm 42 and up until just over a year ago, I knew nothing about computers except how to switch one on. Since then I've learned a ton about the Windows XP OS and how to make it more secure, built my own computer, discovered Linux and installed Ubuntu on my system, now have 4 OSes on my 2 hard drives (Windows XP, Dapper, Edgy, and have just installed Suse 10.2), and am trying to learn as much as I can about Linux.

I find that particular remark about middle aged and old people being unable to learn anything new to be quite offensive, actually.

[aysiu]

Can't Linux gain some desktop marketshare (okay, if not all of Linux as a whole, how about one distribution?) without it being 50%? Where did that number come from, anyway--50%? Couldn't it just be 10% or 15%? That'd be enough to still be the minority but also to get third-party support from hardware manufacturers.

[hk_2999]

Can't Linux gain some desktop marketshare (okay, if not all of Linux as a whole, how about one distribution?) without it being 50%? Where did that number come from, anyway--50%? Couldn't it just be 10% or 15%? That'd be enough to still be the minority but also to get third-party support from hardware manufacturers.

But ubuntu's bug#1 is to topple Windows' share.

[EdThaSlayer]

More linux users means more people knowing about Linux. These people will then spread the word of Linux.
Without any users Linux would just be "invisible" and no hardware companies would even recognize Linux. Although you might want to keep it for the "smart people", another OS could allow a "dumb person" to do the same thing that you are doing with less effort. I was probably going a bit off-topic with the last sentence but if you are so smart then use Gentoo where you have to do everything manually.

[VorDesigns]

I would like to see more users embracing Linux at least at the corporate leve but I also recognize that the current miasma that is Windows is our own fault. Everyone just wanted a button and nobody wanted to understand what they were doing.

I would also like to see the commercial gaming community embrace Linux. I want my Linux to play TreadMarks too!

And


Originally Posted by BWF89 View Post
The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.

I got the gist of what BWF89 is trying to say; The more young people who start using Linux today will become the computer literati of tomorrow. Furthermore, he believes that middle aged people are TOO old and SET in their ways to become viably conversant in the Linux community. Sadly, BWF89 must have been sleeping in his English classes. A common problem with the youth of today but, what do I know. I'm middle aged.

At 41, I've forgotten more about computers than I know now and I know a hell of a lot. Yet, every day I know a little more and still know, that I will learn something else tomorrow.

[aysiu]

But ubuntu's bug#1 is to topple Windows' share.
Fair enough.

Well, unlike Mark Shuttleworth, I would be content with 15%, not a majority.

As for the middle-aged remark--I'd say the clump of middle-aged computer users who are illiterate or confused are that way not because of anything inherent in being several decades old but because they didn't use personal computers when they were growing up.

Depending on what your definition of "middle-aged" is, we're talking people who grew up in the 1950s, 1960s, or 1970s. Personal computers didn't really start to become popular until the mid-1980s--some would argue even the mid-nineties! If you didn't grow up using computers, it would make sense for you to not be comfortable with them.

Anyone now, though, who would be middle-aged ten or twenty years from now would have grown up with computers... unless they are from extremely poor neighborhoods. The few working-class neighborhood schools I've worked in have all had computer labs and computers in the libraries, even if the students themselves didn't have computers at home.

[felosi]

linux will never be mainstream. Windows is a flawed system but ubuntu isnt perfect either. It being slower then windows, lack of decent gfx and webdesign apps is just the tip of the iceberg. Also why is ubuntu still making packages default for i386? who the hell still uses that crap?

[aysiu]

linux will never be mainstream. Windows is a flawed system but ubuntu isnt perfect either. It being slower then windows, lack of decent gfx and webdesign apps is just the tip of the iceberg. Also why is ubuntu still making packages default for i386? who the hell still uses that crap?
Ubuntu is not Linux. It is one distribution that uses the Linux kernel.

My IceWM Ubuntu is much faster than XP.

Windows pre-Vista didn't have decent gfx.

Screem is a great web design app, as are Bluefish and Nvu.

I still use i386.

Do you even have any idea what you're talking about?

Edit: Looking back through your posting history, it just seems you had a bad experience with Edgy being slow and decided to make sweeping statements based on your one personal experience. I forgive you for over-generalizing.

[dada1958]

It might seem odd for me to question that, but really, if you have a problem in windows and you google that problem you will bump a hundred pages, none of which are of any use, and how about all those script kiddies who will abuse linux' open-source code to make web attacks?

Isn't it better to have Linux as it is right now with a small user base and intelligent, responsible ubuntizens that are really helpful and knows their stuff than having a 50+% market share and having flamers, trolls and not-so-intelligent, not-very-responsible, not-so-respectful users?

Maybe we'll realize it once we're on top, while the mac and other underdogs will be the next to have the most-intelligent-citizen user base linux currently enjoys now.

So I've got to say, shouldn't we just leave the ordinary-joes and the not-so-ordinary-joes with Windows?

You think you're acting respectful with this posting? I'm an old guy, 48 years old, I love the philosophy behind Ubuntu Linux which aims high quality computing for everybody.
How do you see your future when you are getting 'older'? :lolflag:

[steven8]

*sigh* These are the threads that try men's souls.

If our goal is to stay small and keep out all the ordinary joes and us old, unable to learn new things, people, then let's make sure our users are only blonde-haired, blue-eyed aryans as well. I hate to tell you, but done properly, there isn't one single aspect of your system which couldn't be changed using a gui app., perhaps needing a restart, damn the inconvenience. CLI has just become cool rather than ordinary.

[shareMenaPeace]

In ALL: more user == more exponential growth

[Gordy]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.

What are you saying when you say "middle aged to old people and are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new"

I am 56 and have no problem changing or learning new things. By what you say, you are not very supportive.

[Gordy]

linux will never be mainstream. Windows is a flawed system but ubuntu isnt perfect either. It being slower then windows, lack of decent gfx and webdesign apps is just the tip of the iceberg. Also why is ubuntu still making packages default for i386? who the hell still uses that crap?

Everytime a new designe comes out there are flaws. What would you rather have a stable system or an unstable system. Complaints are made about Windows being unstable and now your saying that you would put up with an unstable Ubuntu just because you want advances in designe? Try being content with something that works and soon you will see that NEW in not always better.

[Gordy]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.


Take your time and read this:
http://www.newsforge.com/business/02/06/12/1731250.shtml?tid=19

[Gordy]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.

This was taken from a senior citizens Linux user group. Most are 60+ and some are 80.
Yet senior citizens still have a lot to contribute to society. Think about the knowledge they hold, the experience they have and the wisdom that has yet to be shared. How often is it passed down to the next generation? How often does the youth of today listen?

It only makes sense that senior citizens have abilities far beyond what you may think otherwise. They are our history books and we should welcome their knowledge. They have walked the way of many who are starting out in life. Waiting on them and listening to them would be a wise idea. Their guidence can give you the common sense to make better decissions in life. This alone is very valuble. Someday the younger generation will walk the ways of the senior citizen and will see for themselves that being a senior citizen is not all that terible. Wake up!

[prizrak]

Yes we do need Linux on the desktop otherwise my laptop won't have an OS :(

[beercz]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.
Isn't Linus Torsvads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds) approaching middle age?

[beercz]

Oh come on beercz. You know your totally the exception. :) Though I often see the immaturity in his statements Id say for the most part BWF89's opinion here holds true. At lease when it comes to people and computers. ;)
That's missing the point! BWF89's comments are offensive to a large part of the linux community and a large part of the population at large.

His comments are also misguided. There is also a thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=356075)regarding marketing linux to teens, who simply want to use Windows for surfing, listening and ripping music/dvds, playing games and chatting to their mates on msn (including voice/video and the 'funny' emoticons) for the most part.

BWF89's comments are simply misguided (do they break the forums rules?). The point behind GNU/Linux and the open source philosophy at large is to make the software freely available to everyone who wants it, and also be available to anyone who wants to modify it, and make it available to others on the same basis.

And, as prizrak said, without a desktop I would not be using linux on my laptop or desktop, I would only be using it on servers.

[prizrak]

linux will never be mainstream. Windows is a flawed system but ubuntu isnt perfect either. It being slower then windows, lack of decent gfx and webdesign apps is just the tip of the iceberg. Also why is ubuntu still making packages default for i386? who the hell still uses that crap?

You do realize that up until Vista, Windows was only for i386? Moreover from everything I hear Vista 64 is a non OS at this point because there are very few drivers for it. It's actually alot easier to move to 64 on Ubuntu/Linux as all the drivers just have to be recompiled with GCC64 and you are done. Also Ubuntu's Edgy is no i386 it's a generic kernel that has 64 bit suppot built in AFAIK.

As far as who uses i386, a huge number of people. Everyone I know including myself still has a 32 bit CPU and really unless you need more than 4gigs of RAM there is no need whatsoever for a 64bit it doesn't make anything run faster it only allows for more address space that equals more RAM.

As aysiu said you are going by one distro out of 280 or so. Debian has ports to just about any CPU you can think of. Linux had 64 bit support way back when 64 was confined to servers only and no one in the PC world ever needed more than a 100MB of RAM.

[hk_2999]

You think you're acting respectful with this posting? I'm an old guy, 48 years old, I love the philosophy behind Ubuntu Linux which aims high quality computing for everybody.
How do you see your future when you are getting 'older'? :lolflag:

I'm sorry, but I don't get this post.

Yes, I consider myself respectful posting this, but really I'm just sharing my thoughts, that maybe we'll need a new strategy that will help us herd a greater number of users and keep them satisfied, respectful, and helpful, continuing the community spirit alive rather than divided, unhelpful, flaming, ungrateful, argumentative trolls. If the future of ubuntu is this kind of Windows-ey society then when you'll need to fix things up, you'll gonna pay a technician a hundred bucks just to set up bash, etc, and there will be script kiddies screwing your PC around, spyware, adware, and egotistic ubuntizens.

Much like what the hugely populated Windows world currently is.

[rsambuca]

Everyone I know including myself still has a 32 bit CPU and really unless you need more than 4gigs of RAM there is no need whatsoever for a 64bit it doesn't make anything run faster it only allows for more address space that equals more RAM.
I agree with most of your points, but to be fair, there are many applications where 64bit makes quite a huge difference - video transcoding, 3d rendering, etc...

[steven8]

egotistic ubuntizens.

I'm sorry, but that is exactly what you came off as in your intial posting. . .and still do in subsequent postings. Ubuntu is supposed to Linux For Human Beings. I'm pretty sure Mark didn't mean Human Beings We Believe Are Good Enough.

[Hex_Mandos]

I think 10 to 15% percent, like Aysiu says, is good enough. That's STILL an OS for a minority, but large enough for it to have the support it needs from hardware and software vendors.

The funny part is that by reaching 10%, Linux might gain enough momentum to actually topple Windows. Windows survives mostly because of its hegemony: once it starts showing cracks, it will probably crumble. I'd personally be happy with a world having 3 to 5 main OSes, none of them having more than 40% of the marketshare. That'd make everyone's computer more secure, and it'd drive technological innovation.

[prizrak]

I agree with most of your points, but to be fair, there are many applications where 64bit makes quite a huge difference - video transcoding, 3d rendering, etc...
I agree that professional A/V and 3D rendering benefit greatly from every little bit of power, I was talking more about general purpose desktop that for the most part won't be used for 3D rendering, and it if is I kinda doubt it would run Ubuntu on it.
Good call though, certain things do benefit from 64 bit.

[prizrak]

I think 10 to 15% percent, like Aysiu says, is good enough. That's STILL an OS for a minority, but large enough for it to have the support it needs from hardware and software vendors.

The funny part is that by reaching 10%, Linux might gain enough momentum to actually topple Windows. Windows survives mostly because of its hegemony: once it starts showing cracks, it will probably crumble. I'd personally be happy with a world having 3 to 5 main OSes, none of them having more than 40% of the marketshare. That'd make everyone's computer more secure, and it'd drive technological innovation.
That's a nice thought but highly unlikely unless all of the OS's have the same base. I'm not gonna go into history of Windows but the reason for it's enormous market share and continued popularity is homogeneity. Its very easy to develop for Windows since you have one set of API's. It makes it easy for OEM's to support since all their machines will work the same, it's easy for IT - they only need to learn one OS.

Any OS that manages to take a certain percentage of the market will pretty much supplant the incumbent monopoly with it due to networking effect.

[kazuya]

linux is for everyone. I hope it continues to grow bigger and win more users. You do not have to be a PC expert or software genius to use linux.
A window user with the right distro and patience would come to love and use their linux system much more easily than a windows system.

My mom uses Ubuntu which I setup for her. linux is for everyone..

[beercz]

linux is for everyone.
Absolutely!!

[ShareBuntu]

I think we need Linux on the desktop. Perhaps not all flavours of Linux, but certainly Ubuntu. We're the open source movement's poster child and we represent an alternative. It is exactly "that" alternative making us great. Most people would embrace a path different from what is forced onto them and until we reach critical mass through offering an alternative we will never realise our full potential.

Just remember, change is the only constant - embrace it. Who knows what type of grass grows on the other side?

[kristalsoldier]

I don't know a damn thing about Ubuntu/ Linux (am actually downloading the live cd as I write this)!. But this thread did touch a nerve!

As I understand it, it is the linux kernal that matters. Everything else is fluff..add-ons! And why is the kernal open source? Because it allows whoever from wherever to do whatever they want to it! In short, they can MAKE IT THEIR OWN!

Now, why am I downloading ubuntu?

(1) Because I want to be able to do things - I want to be able to write small scripts that will change (or at least modify) how I do things. Will I have to learn? Yes, of course! Will I bug good people like the ones on this forum and elsewhere? Yes, I probably will. Will I read up on how to write those small scripts? Yes, I will. Isn't that how the 'geeks' became 'geeks' in the first place?

(2) Because I am beginning to recognize the ill-effects of walking into a computer shop and being told - here is a shelf of laptops - pick whichever one you want - oh..and BTW, your ability to choose is limited to - in a manner of speaking - the colour and the make - not where it matters. This is like the Henry Ford model - you can have a car of any colour as long as it is black!

(3) Associated with #2 - With Vista's release, what MS has done is to send me a message that MS will now determine what hardware I can or cannot use! (nope! this is not a rant against MS! Hey, MS makes money - more power to them!) But the fact remains, software is meant to empower hardware - MS with Vista turns that upside down! To use Vista, your hardware must be compatible to the software! No! I resent that. Why? Maybe because right now I don't have the money to buy a new machine! Maybe I like my OLD machine! Or, whatever! Whichever way you look at it - No software? Your hardware is worthless junk!

And as for older folks and the so-called non-geeks etc...they may not want to explore linux or whatever, but you know what - they MUST ALWAYS have the option! That's what it boils down to...to be Free...to do what they choose to do...that maybe to use Windows...or that may be to use Linux...but they MUST have the option...like the geeks do!

Yes, I know I am probably the least qualified person to voice an opinion on this...but, essentially, this is what I teach at University!

I'm sorry for the 'tone' of my post...but as I mentioned at the outset...this thrad did touch a nerve!

[rustybronco]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.

52 going on 53 here, the most fun i've had with an os since dos...
and i've used them all (dos, pcdos, novell dos, windows 3.11, 95, 98, 2000, xp, os2) all I need to do is convert my wife and kids but rest assured it will not be vista for me.

just so you know the command line IS my friend.

[newbieforever]

Isn't it better to have Linux as it is right now with a small user base and intelligent, responsible ubuntizens that are really helpful and knows their stuff than having a 50+% market share and having flamers, trolls and not-so-intelligent, not-very-responsible, not-so-respectful users?
what you say is the reason for which i'm really careful in judging the friendliness of a linuxian: many linuxians have the same thoughts, and this is why the utopia about free software is failing (2 % of desktop market share after 14 years from first redhat, an 12 years after debian);
many people talking about free software think only about their freedom (freedom towards what? how can you 2% be free in a 98% of slave world?), not the importance for democracy, human rights, health, bioethics, environment, peace in the world...

yes, free software is also that, not only a guy that feels free at his workstation downloading the last movie, while is a slave in a hospital, when his life is under risk, and doctors use embedded proprietary software and proprietary chemic and proprietary genes inside their electronic tools and medicine, that keep him alive

nbfe

(a not so intelligent guy, not intelligent because after 14 years any of the most intelligent free-guys thought to make GUIs that allow to fully configure linux systems, thus making the same error of windows, substantially "hiding" the core of system):
if a normal (not-so-intelligent) person is not free to use linux, as i am, how could you talk about free software?

i'm wasting my time...

[jespdj]

newbieforever, do you realize that you just woke a thread which has already been dead for 13 months? (Last post was on March 9th, 2007).

Anyway...:

...and how about all those script kiddies who will abuse linux' open-source code to make web attacks?
What would the OP have meant by this? I don't see how script kiddies could use Linux' open-source code to make web attacks.

One common misconception about open-source is that it's less secure because anybody knowledgeable could look through the code, find a security hole, and write some software to exploit it.

The reality is that it's the opposite, and Linux is much more secure than closed-source operating systems such as Windows and Mac OS - see for example the recent PWN2OWN hack contest (http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2008/03/30/vista-second-os-to-fall-to-hackers-in-security-contest) in which a MacBook Air was hacked in two minutes, Windows Vista in a day and Ubuntu 7.10 couldn't be hacked at all.

[newbieforever]

newbieforever, do you realize that you just woke a thread which has already been dead for 13 months? (Last post was on March 9th, 2007).

Hello! :-)
Actually, I don't see it dead... Infact it is not marked as "Solved"... it was sleeping...
I thank for your precious reply...

Anyway...:In fact... anyway... what's the matter? Who cares if the thread was sleeping? It is here, and now it s well awake! And someone could read it any time.. and may be that different points of view could be useful...
I don't think is very kind and encouraging for people like me to find a post like that I replied to...
And I think that such kind of positions are the weak side of linux...

I am a functional analyst... above all, I have many things to learn, but the problem I focused in these years is that many times is really very difficult to give to anyone what he REALLY WANT (not only need): many people DON'T KNOW what they want... my job is clarify that, and achieve the core... many times I convinced people to accept the opposite of the initial query...

Right... that said... for linux it seems the same... in the linux world there are plenty of very capable programmers... they really know how to do something incredible in a snap... I'm astonished of the quality of the software I'm seeing in this two first months of linux...

But there's a limit: in the linux world not many people know what to do (let's ignore for a moment "why"...)
The result is that linux is the maximum from a tech point of view, but is not on the knees of the real-world-people, it is not our everyday life...

Not only, its vision (because linux HAS-A vision and IS-A vision, is not in the common sense... we can apply the linux model to the society... try to think about the consequences...

I want linux spreading and getting better, not only have a ton of software free of charge... (it's not bad, any way :) )...

Linux is very difficult to me, trust me, I'm not so stupid, but I'm getting time and effort to get use to it...

5 millions of posts... only for ubuntu... how many words? how many thoughts? And what if all this incredible intellectual capital was invested to bring linux to the masses... saying them.... hey: linux is not easy, and life is not easy... but they are good... let's work together for a better life... try to understand what functions we want...

The problem is definitively not only software... we have a really good "pattern", and we are "programming" our lives and our world the wrong way... you can see on tv...

anyway...


(...) One common misconception about open-source is that it's less secure because anybody knowledgeable could look through the code, find a security hole, and write some software to exploit it.

The reality is that it's the opposite, and Linux is much more secure than closed-source operating systems such as Windows and Mac OS - see for example the recent PWN2OWN hack contest (http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2008/03/30/vista-second-os-to-fall-to-hackers-in-security-contest) in which a MacBook Air was hacked in two minutes, Windows Vista in a day and Ubuntu 7.10 couldn't be hacked at all.
I strongly agree with you...
At the supermarket we can read the ingredients of what we eat... nobody can bring us to jail because we read that, and even if we pay for a chemical analysis of what we eat... there are laws that say that... and that say we have the right to know what we feed our bodies with, isn't it?

The same for the software, which is so pervasive in our lives... if we decompile a commercial closed program and we discover that is a malware, we go to jail... but we have the right to know what is inside what we rely everyday on... don't you think?

How can we resolve that? Leaving Linux and free software (even free paid software) on the the 2% of houses of the world?
Do we want the software industry control us?
Who knows who are the real leaders of the the software we use?
I think we all should claim to know their faces and their postal address.



__________________
Laptop: Dell XPS M1330 | Core 2 Duo T7300 | 2 GB RAM | 160 GB | nVidia 8400M GS (128 MB) | WLED | Intel 4965 AGN WiFi | Gutsy 32-bit
Desktop: Core 2 Duo E6600 | 2 GB RAM | 320 GB | nVidia 8600 GTS (256 MB) | Dell 2405FPW | Hardy alpha 6 64-bit
Excuse me, I'm not so confident with some aspects... isn't the Core 2 Duo T7300 an x86_64 implementation of the amd64 architecture? Why do you use ubuntu 32 bit on the laptop?
If I'm wrong I apologize, and I would glad if you could explain what install on what...

Thank you very much...

nbfe

[newbieforever]

hello,
just e brief incursion;
i'm jobless, i'm studying and i can't ever talk to anyone during the day...
this thread, that i think is not dead, raise a plenty of thoughts in me...

i reasoned about the free software for every one...

i have not time to say all i would like to say...

but about the 2% desktop market share...

what the free software philosophy was born for?
something like "the freedom to use, to know, to modify, to adapt, to redistribute, to share..." and so on...

now: please correct me if i'm wrong, but i never saw the word "the freedom to grab"... is that implicitly included in the philosophy?

now, the free software philosophy was born in a period while computer users were probably, i figure out, also computer experts of any kind, programmers, tester, technicians, maintainers, and so on... so maybe that time the free philosophy was well understood by any computer user... and it was essential and fundamental to have better software, better knowledge, better collaboration... this way all the people involved participated actively to a real global community...
that time free software and its importance was well understood by anyone involved.... i'm sure about that

but now society, marketing, commerce, industry, politics, ideals, people, habits, culture, history facts and situations are changed... you can add what you prefer, i think we cant have back that time and that world... as happen for anything in life and history (humanity life?)...

now i always find that when people is introduced to free software, the first concept that is stressed that...

free != freeFromChargeOnly

...why this? in italy internet started for hi-end computer users, that spread among people mainly thanks to pc and windows, and the main interest about internet among the masses was that it gave a ton of to grab freeFromChargeOnly...

...the economist wrote about the dramatic politic and social context in italy, all around the world there was a global laugh about berlusconi government, and parmalat, you know... now here noby is laughing about the fact that governs that came after berlusconi never tried to remove the scandalous laws made by berlusconi...

according to "Reporters Without Borders" http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24025
italy's freedom of expression rank is 35 and united states is 48... (Romania, the ex communist country of ceausescu, is 42, South Africa the ex apartheid country and the mark shuttleworth's country, is 43, no surprise he lives in uk)

the ADUC (an italian customers's association against industries' abuses) say that (http://www.aduc.it/dyn/comunicati/comu_mostra.php?id=178001) HP pcs customers have to respect this clause : "Il prodotto software inutilizzato deve essere restituito al rivenditore, unitamente all'hardware HP, entro 14 giorni dalla data d'acquisto, per ottenere il rimborso integrale del prezzo pagato alle condizioni in vigore presso il luogo d'acquisto" ("The software product unused must be returned to the dealer, with HP hardware, within 14 days from the date of purchase to obtain a refund of the full price paid to the conditions in force at the place of purchase" (google translation))
i (as registered HP customer) contacted hp customer care, about that, i didnt obtained a reply yet

now, i gave some pills of thoughts, and i would like con conclude this post, but not the thread...

may linux and free software have at least a few problems?

1 - some free software's sustainers perhaps act thinking that avarage skills and motivations among computer users are higher than the real ones, so after 14 years from redhat the desktop linux market share is about 2% in the best estimation...

...also because average users simply cant afford the complexity to understand what they are doing with their machine, and most of all how to fix problems, incompatibilities, failures, and how to take advantage from a better software they cant simply use, because they cant manage it easily in the case of troubles

could we assert that free software is still mainly "experts-to-experts" computers users? could we assert that the first poster of this thread has an elitist behavior and he wants freedom only for himself and his "colleagues"?

an example: take synaptic and repositories approach: "they" (repos maintainers) decide which apps, which versions, are available, and hide the complexity about installation, instead to remove it:

- is the "dependencies-and-compiling-hell" (for the non programmers people i mean) better than the windows registry?
- is there a blend? synaptic is black or white, the only alternative is the command line compiling and installing (or in very rare cases deb packages (not so easy to find when you don't know what you search))

is this "freedom" for the average user? has an average desktop user the time the motivation and THE MONEY to learn that?

you can figure my opinion, i would like to hear yours

2 - there is a strong, hard to defeat lobby-ism in technology industry: they are few and organized, the people are millions and simply cant act as a unique body and mind, there is no possibility to merge million of points of views and thousands of cultures... and we dont want that, because diversity is richness!!!

3 - how to overcome point 2? freedom of information: if you know what you eat, what you inspire with air, what your politicians really do, what is the production costs of the products you buy, what are the alternatives in every aspect of your life... what your software really is worth, what it really does behind the scenes... than you can choose

freedom to have right and complete information about your choices may be a starting point; but we have seen that there is a problem about freedom of information (86 journalists killed in 2007 - up 244% over five years, (http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=24909))

4 - how to overcome the point 1? i dont know...
will all we become programmers on earth? that is not science-fiction: once upon a time, literates didnt think that one day all the people in the world could had been able to write....
_____________

[PartisanEntity]

It might seem odd for me to question that, but really, if you have a problem in windows and you google that problem you will bump a hundred pages, none of which are of any use, and how about all those script kiddies who will abuse linux' open-source code to make web attacks?

Isn't it better to have Linux as it is right now with a small user base and intelligent, responsible ubuntizens that are really helpful and knows their stuff than having a 50+% market share and having flamers, trolls and not-so-intelligent, not-very-responsible, not-so-respectful users?

Maybe we'll realize it once we're on top, while the mac and other underdogs will be the next to have the most-intelligent-citizen user base linux currently enjoys now.

So I've got to say, shouldn't we just leave the ordinary-joes and the not-so-ordinary-joes with Windows?

How? Have an entrance exam every time someone installs Linux to see if they can join the club?

I find your question strange because it discusses something completely beyond anyones control. It discusses trying to control a natural development.

Who is going to prevent Linux from becoming more common on the desktop and how?

The fact that Linux based operating systems are becoming more used on desktops is because they are becoming more and more attractive in terms of what they can do and their looks.

It is a natural development. I don't like this elitist approach.

[mozetti]

I dont understand how the term "market share" can be relevant to linux.

Market share is only relevant to a corporation selling a product. Its not relevant to a product that is produced by a community of volunteers. Linux can have a user base of 30 people, 30,000 or 30 million people - numbers are not a factor for a community driven product because no matter how many people use it, it will always be there. Someone somewhere always produce something to give away for free. And there will always be people willing to help.

Linux users always boast about how free they are from windows, yet they seem to spend so much time obssessing about its future - why does it matter anymore? You're free of windows, it shouldn't be a concern anymore. I couldn't give a monkeys about the fortunes of MS. Its not relevant to me anymore, I don't use their products and never will.

Linux will grow or die irrespective of the fortunes of Mac OSX or Windows. If it does die, something else will replace it. If Windows dies, something will replace that too. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because there will always be free software and there will always be an alternative.

Wow, there is so much wrong in this post it's hard to decide where to start. So, I'll just work from the top.

Don't confuse the fact that the price is 0 with the market for an OS. Ask Redhat or Canonical. While both give away the OS for free, they have a very real stake in the OS market, and what % of the market uses linux. As far as the number of users -- you'll get a lot better and faster development with a userbase of 30 million versus 30.

Why does the future of linux matter for the user that's switched from Windows? Well, because without a plan for the future any project/organization is doomed to fail. It would be a real shame to make the switch only to find out that 5 years later you'll have to switch back because no one was thinking about the future and now the OS doesn't satisfy your needs any longer.

[notwen]

So I've got to say, shouldn't we just leave the ordinary-joes and the not-so-ordinary-joes with Windows?

What was Ubuntu's whole meaning? Something along the lines of "humanity toward others", "we are people because of other people", or "I am who I am because of who we all are".

"we are people because of other people" <--- these people may be included in the ones you're wanting to 'leave w/ Windows'.

[MellonCollie]

It might seem odd for me to question that, but really, if you have a problem in windows and you google that problem you will bump a hundred pages, none of which are of any use,

If you're going to post about how intelligent Linux users are, you probably shouldn't have started your post with something like this.




Isn't it better to have Linux as it is right now with a small user base and intelligent, responsible ubuntizens that are really helpful and knows their stuff than having a 50+% market share and having flamers, trolls and not-so-intelligent, not-very-responsible, not-so-respectful users?

I'm sure if some of the Windows-bashing threads here at ubuntuforums.org were posted on a Windows-centric website, such as Neowin.net (www.neowin.net), they would be considered to be "not-so-intelligent", "not-so-respectful", and troll-like.

[eragon100]

Yes we do. The more users, the more native games developers will release :popcorn:

[eragon100]

Oh and Neowin isn't windows-centric! In case you haven't seen it, there is a big banner at the top of the page that says: "Shift Linux is the Neowin community's very own Linux Distro. Based on Ubuntu, it is available in KDE, Gnome and Lite flavours" :lolflag:

So how do you mean, windows centric :confused:

[MellonCollie]

So how do you mean, windows centric :confused:

It started its life as a site reporting about Windows XP. It has much larger Windows community than it does Mac and Linux (although Mac/Linux users are very welcome, and, as you pointed out, the Linux users there have their own distro). The site's name is also a hint. :)

[Ioky]

There are a few thing that I want to point out. Linux is a system for every one, from IQ 2 to IQ 500 (the smartest people today is only about 200 or less) That mean every can use Linux.

I don't think most people use Linux for a non-ordinary joy. (if you don't use computer at all this day in a developed country you are non-ordinary.)

People use Linux because it give more freedom on what they are doing. I am making my own game right now under Linux and Open Source tool, and I don't need to play any one for anything. As long I have the skill, and creativity I can do anything I want under Linux. However you can't do that under Windows or Mac. (at less not as good as Linux.)

Yes, we do get advantage to be a small group of people, and we share all knowledge we have to each others. Well, it doesn't mean you can't do that if Linux go main steam. You have to understand, Linux is under a Free system, when a problem come to Linux, every one who want to solve the problem, they are able to do so. But in Windows or Mac, if there is a problem, Only the company themselves can solve it, because it is simple much harder to solve a software/OS problem while the Source is close.

You should know that too, not every one in the world care about computer, Most people simply need a tool to do their Job, They might think, I get the newest system out there, it might be that best. (One of the reason of people use Vista.) I agrees that most people use Linux do some what care computer (if they choose to use it themselves.)

Here is a logical prediction, If Linux for any choose go main stream, the world wouldn't change much, except the windows system today will be replace by Linux. In fact, replace by the Main streams distro of Linux such as ubuntu, OpenSuSE, Fodra Core, and so. And software will change target to make software to those Distro. However, the Open source software fact wouldn't die out, because if they are going to die out, they die out today, I mean you can simply use windows, I mean it is not great, but for software , you just use the software, if the software can run on themselve you wouldn't even need the OS. The Open Source / free ware will still come along with Linux Distro. It is up to the User to get the close source software or what not.

However, it wouldn't be so easy to get people to understand the full advantage of Linux. Just like Point and Shoot camera, people tend to just to have a thing that make them looks good, and work automatically. Those thing do make life easier, but they don't make life better because people now will think they can do every thing, but in fact, they can only do every thing under the box, that those who really know something created.

Will See

[Jammy4041]

Indeed, Ubuntu is for everybody. It's very easy to use. I'd like big companies to " wake up and smell the coffee".

IF they started to support Ubuntu more, we would get native drivers. But it's a challenge for us, and its satifying when you've had a horrible problem, and managed to overcome that problem.

So yes and no really.

[Az_135r]

within linux, there is a distribution/derivative for everyone... im not worried at all

microsoft = you get what your given
linux = where theres a demand, there will be supply

[Islington]

Awesome. pure and simple.

I have a question however, is there any way to determine what is running at startup?
specifically I want compiz to run by default.

[DeadSuperHero]

I'd say that a gradual growth and education for every user would eventually contribute to a better world of computing. Eventually, we'd capture a large chunk of the market, and spew out saavy tech people.

[Gordy]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.

Stuck in our way's? Dude I am 58 years old and I probably know more about operating systems than you will ever have a chance to know. in your lifetime. I have many family members past 58 and they learn just like everybody else. People like you are the ones stuck in your ways because you think the older people cannot learn or want to learn.

Your living in a cave...........

[aysiu]

I'd say that a gradual growth and education for every user would eventually contribute to a better world of computing. Eventually, we'd capture a large chunk of the market, and spew out saavy tech people.
Unfortunately, I don't know how gradual it will be if it ever happens. There's a certain saturation point ("critical mass," I believe it's called) at which people will consider Linux mainstream, and then hoards of people will come.

Right now we're anywhere between .5% and 3%, depending on whom you ask and what their biases are. We'll keep gradually growing, but if we make it to 15%, I think the growth rate will shoot up quite rapidly and then peak around 20-30% (depending on what country you live in). At least this is what happened with Firefox...

[digger95]

The more people that use Linux (young people, not the middle aged to old people that are stuck in their ways and can't learn anything new) start to use Linux they'll become good enough to stand on their own the same as they do with Windows right now.
Oh good grief. I'm 45 years old, a full-time student getting my master's degree, started using Linux/Ubuntu for the first time last Fall, and now I'm learning Slackware of all things. Just what is it that us 'old folks' are unable to learn? LOL.

[aysiu]

Oh good grief. I'm 45 years old, a full-time student getting my master's degree, started using Linux/Ubuntu for the first time last Fall, and now I'm learning Slackware of all things. Just what is it that us 'old folks' are unable to learn? LOL.
I think the middle-aged folks who are tech-savvy are probably the least stuck in their ways, as they have seen it all from the pre-MS-DOS days (as did I, but I was a wee child in the pre-MS-DOS days). It's the younger folks who have grown up with only Windows and who think Windows has always ruled and will always rule.

Granted, there are plenty of middle-aged non-tech-savvy people, too (like my in-laws), who are afraid of change.

To be honest, though, most people who are afraid of technological change are also afraid of computers in general. Even though they feel better with Windows, they don't really feel comfortable with Windows. They're always on edge, worried they're going to break something or something is going to go wrong. They don't think of the acquiring of malware as a result of something they did - they think it's some strange freak occurrence that could happen at any time. In just about every job I've had, I've been surrounded by such people. Rather than exploring programs' options, they memorize steps and clicks. Rather than understanding security good practices, they just make sure they have anti-virus installed.

The sad fact of the matter is that people afraid of change can be in any age demographic. I wish I knew more young people open to trying new things.

[karellen]

yes, we do. market share (more than let's say 1-2%) means support from oems, means drivers, means recognition and so on...

[digger95]

I think the middle-aged folks who are tech-savvy are probably the least stuck in their ways, as they have seen it all from the pre-MS-DOS days...
Well I will admit that our family's first home computer was a Commodore 64 with the high-tech cassette tape drive. :) And I'm old enough to remember making Christmas wreaths out of computer punch cards in the 70's. LoL.