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AlexC_
February 10th, 2007, 08:22 PM
Hey,

I'm soon to purchase a Dell Inspiron 1501 laptop direct from dell, but of course it comes with Windows Vista Home Basic ... great. I am not going to let them force me into paying for something which I will not use and will not agree to the EULA it comes with, so I am going to fight for my Vista license refund.

I've yet to purchase the laptop, but have just sent them this email:


Hello,

I am thinking about purchasing a Inspiron 1501 laptop from you, however my only concern is the Windows Vista Home Basic license it comes with. I do not use any Microsoft operating system as my preferred operating system is Linux, mainly Ubuntu, and so buying a laptop from you with the Windows Vista Home Basic license is a waste of my money because I will never use it and I will not accept the EULA License it comes with. I would like to know if I can purchase the Inspiron 1501 laptop from you without the Windows Vista Home Basic license and have the cost of the license deducted from the final price.

Regards,
Alex

Basically asking if I can buy the laptop without the Windows Vista Home Basic (Why such a long name?!) and have the cost of it removed, to save the hassle of returning and getting a refund afterwards.

Hopefully it all goes well and I will be able to get the laptop without Vista!

jeffc313
February 10th, 2007, 08:24 PM
Hey,

I'm soon to purchase a Dell Inspiron 1501 laptop direct from dell, but of course it comes with Windows Vista Home Basic ... great. I am not going to let them force me into paying for something which I will not use and will not agree to the EULA it comes with, so I am going to fight for my Vista license refund.

I've yet to purchase the laptop, but have just sent them this email:



Basically asking if I can buy the laptop without the Windows Vista Home Basic (Why such a long name?!) and have the cost of it removed, to save the hassle of returning and getting a refund afterwards.

Hopefully it all goes well and I will be able to get the laptop without Vista!
believe me, they are going to try to drag it out as far as possible, to make you probably not get your cash. You may even go to court.

AlexC_
February 10th, 2007, 08:32 PM
believe me, they are going to try to drag it out as far as possible, to make you probably not get your cash. You may even go to court.

Oh I'm not expecting them to hand it over to me easily, I'm gonna fight for it. You don't mean I can go to court just for asking do you?! :confused: Me don't wanna go to court! :)

jeffc313
February 10th, 2007, 08:34 PM
Oh I'm not expecting them to hand it over to me easily, I'm gonna fight for it. You don't mean I can go to court just for asking do you?! :confused: Me don't wanna go to court! :)
no, they may try to say, no, you can have what WE paid for vista (approx 5 dollars) and you will probably want to take them to court.

AlexC_
February 10th, 2007, 08:38 PM
no, they may try to say, no, you can have what WE paid for vista (approx 5 dollars) and you will probably want to take them to court.

Ok, but taking them to court would cost a lot more than the license of Vista, correct? If I do manage to get a refund do I get the full price of the license, or do I get what they paid? I sure do hope it's the full price of the license.

edit: or rather, which should I legally get?

dalani
February 10th, 2007, 09:00 PM
AlexC,

I imagine that this could happen to any of us (since buying a new computer now entails having Vista pre-installed). Asking for full licence cost refund would be the best starting point.

Totaly off topic: Your 3d portifolio is awsome and I have to ask : What linux app are you using to model and render the images???

AlexC_
February 10th, 2007, 09:05 PM
AlexC,

I imagine that this could happen to any of us (since buying a new computer now entails having Vista pre-installed). Asking for full licence cost refund would be the best starting point.

Totaly off topic: Your 3d portifolio is awsome and I have to ask : What linux app are you using to model and render the images???

I'll see what they say when they email back, if they say I have to buy the laptop at full price I will do, but I will then not accept the EULA and continue to get my refund, a full refund, of the Vista License.

Thanks dalani :) All of the images, apart from the Wire Tree were done in 3D Studio Max on Windows before I used Linux as my main OS. I now use Maya, which has a native Linux version and is what I did the Wire Tree in.

machoo02
February 10th, 2007, 09:08 PM
So why go through the hassle of dealing with Dell and trying to get a license refund when you could just buy a notebook from System 76 (http://www.system76.com)? It might cost a little more at the outset, but it will probably easily be worth $200 not to have the headache of dealing with Dell.

AlexC_
February 10th, 2007, 09:14 PM
So why go through the hassle of dealing with Dell and trying to get a license refund when you could just buy a notebook from System 76 (http://www.system76.com)? It might cost a little more at the outset, but it will probably easily be worth $200 not to have the headache of dealing with Dell.

I would love to get and support a System76 laptop, but I can't afford one right now and plus I live in the UK, afaik you have to be in Canada or USA to buy one (Those are the only options when creating a new account)

hellmet
February 10th, 2007, 09:58 PM
Ok, but taking them to court would cost a lot more than the license of Vista, correct? If I do manage to get a refund do I get the full price of the license, or do I get what they paid? I sure do hope it's the full price of the license.

edit: or rather, which should I legally get?
If they say they paid x$ for Vista, then forward the mail to MS and ask
them to give you 10 copies of Vista at x$ each at a total of x00$.
Replace x with whatever amount that is terribly low.

AlexC_
February 10th, 2007, 10:02 PM
If they say they paid x$ for Vista, then forward the mail to MS and ask
them to give you 10 copies of Vista at x$ each at a total of x00$.
Replace x with whatever amount that is terribly low.

I don't quite understand, how would that help in getting a refund from Dell? Could you explain more please? Is it like, if Dell can get it for $5 then so should I? (If I ever wanted to!)

hellmet
February 10th, 2007, 10:05 PM
yea yea, sry if I confused you.

Nikron
February 10th, 2007, 10:44 PM
You realize they only get the discount because they buy in bulk right... Yeah it's a huge discount but they buy huge amounts. If you asked, hey can I buy 300,000 copies for x dollars, I'm sure they'd do it. But 10 =P

AlexC_
February 10th, 2007, 10:56 PM
You realize they only get the discount because they buy in bulk right... Yeah it's a huge discount but they buy huge amounts. If you asked, hey can I buy 300,000 copies for x dollars, I'm sure they'd do it. But 10 =P

Yeah that's what I thought, contacting Microsoft and asking for Vista at $x price wont help me in getting a refund really :P

Mathiasdm
February 11th, 2007, 12:03 AM
no, they may try to say, no, you can have what WE paid for vista (approx 5 dollars) and you will probably want to take them to court.
There are people that got a $ 50 refund from Dell, without going to court ;)

Polygon
February 11th, 2007, 02:17 AM
just keep quoting the microsoft EULA, espeically the statement that if you dont agree with the eula you should return it to where you purchased it for a full refund

and if they say they already accepted the eula and the cd key has already been activated, say "since when do you get to decide if i accept the eula or not?"

trust me, you will win this. even in court, that magical line in the windows eula is a sure fire hit that you will get your refund

moeFinley
February 11th, 2007, 03:38 AM
just keep quoting the microsoft EULA, espeically the statement that if you dont agree with the eula you should return it to where you purchased it for a full refund

Anyone check if it's in the Vista licence? :confused:

Polygon
February 11th, 2007, 04:51 AM
yep it still is



By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the
software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund
there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s
refund policies. See www.microsoft.com/worldwide. In the United States and Canada, call (800)
MICROSOFT or see www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm.


from http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20Vista_Ultimate_English_36d0fe99-75e4-4875-8153-889cf5105718.pdf

AlexC_
February 11th, 2007, 10:28 AM
just keep quoting the microsoft EULA, espeically the statement that if you dont agree with the eula you should return it to where you purchased it for a full refund

and if they say they already accepted the eula and the cd key has already been activated, say "since when do you get to decide if i accept the eula or not?"

trust me, you will win this. even in court, that magical line in the windows eula is a sure fire hit that you will get your refund

Thanks for the advice, another good one is if they refuse me a refund I will question them and ask them why they gave Dave Mitchell a refund but not me.

siimo
February 11th, 2007, 11:25 AM
whats the point of taking them to court? You will probably lose anyway. They are a business.. they can sell what they want... if they wont sell you laptop without vista license go buy it from another shop that will... simple as that.

argie
February 11th, 2007, 11:38 AM
whats the point of taking them to court? You will probably lose anyway. They are a business.. they can sell what they want... if they wont sell you laptop without vista license go buy it from another shop that will... simple as that.

Oops, not so fast. The Microsoft EULA allows for you to get a refund if you take the software back to where you bought it without having accepted that EULA. A couple of posts up.

AlexC_
February 11th, 2007, 11:40 AM
whats the point of taking them to court? You will probably lose anyway. They are a business.. they can sell what they want... if they wont sell you laptop without vista license go buy it from another shop that will... simple as that.

I probably wont take them to court. Yes, they can sell me what they want - trouble is I don't want Vista and in the Vista EULA it says, and I quote:


If you do not accept them, do not use the
software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit.
So I can legally get a refund for the Windows Vista Home Basic license which I will not use and will not accept the EULA to. Buying a laptop without Vista or any other Windows OS is not as simple as walking into a shop and going "I'd like that laptop, yep that one, but I don't want Windows ... Ok, there you go, thanks, bye!"

If you do find a laptop without an OS installed, it's usually more expensive. If you can find a laptop that I can get, without an OS for £300 then please, tell me where I can get it.

moeFinley
February 11th, 2007, 12:38 PM
whats the point of taking them to court? You will probably lose anyway.

I don't think it would even end up in court¸ it pretty clear cut and something for Trading Standards to deal with. If you buy something and it comes with a licence you don't agree with you can return the product within 30 days.

The question is if they would request the whole laptop, software and all. But as Dell has been happy to give a cash refund to others you'd think it'll be fine.

Call Trading Standards (http://www.tradingstandards.gov.uk/consumers/consumers.cfm) and see what they say, I think you'll find the law is very much on your side.

ZylGadis
February 11th, 2007, 07:46 PM
AlexC,

I would definitely recommend that you drive Dell to court if need be. You will win for certain, you will most probably get back the price of a full retail Vista license for the respective version (which will drive the cost of your laptop quite low), and the losing party is obliged to pay all court fees.

The key parts are these:
1. As per the EULA, you are entitled to a full refund if you do not accept the EULA and do not use the software.
2. Dell are a retailer, and they have a handcuff-like contract with Microsoft. Under no condition are they allowed to tell you the price for Vista they paid Microsoft.
3. In court, since Dell are not allowed to give the amount you should be refunded, and since there is a well-known price for the retail version, you only have to bring a Windows Vista ad with the price on it. Since Dell cannot give a counteroffer, the judge will rule them to give you the full price of Windows Vista as per the ad you brought.

So, make sure you don't accept the EULA, make sure you document everything you do (like taking photos of your monitor with every step of rejecting the EULA), and do not be afraid to go to court. Justice is on your side here.

If Dell have accepted the EULA before they even sell you the laptop, you can potentially sue them for infringing on your rights and supporting a monopoly.

The most important thing to remember is that the law is on your side and they know it. Do not be afraid to bring them to court. Courts are not that scary at all if you are confident and have supporting evidence.

AlexC_
February 11th, 2007, 08:05 PM
AlexC,

I would definitely recommend that you drive Dell to court if need be. You will win for certain, you will most probably get back the price of a full retail Vista license for the respective version (which will drive the cost of your laptop quite low), and the losing party is obliged to pay all court fees.

The key parts are these:
1. As per the EULA, you are entitled to a full refund if you do not accept the EULA and do not use the software.
2. Dell are a retailer, and they have a handcuff-like contract with Microsoft. Under no condition are they allowed to tell you the price for Vista they paid Microsoft.
3. In court, since Dell are not allowed to give the amount you should be refunded, and since there is a well-known price for the retail version, you only have to bring a Windows Vista ad with the price on it. Since Dell cannot give a counteroffer, the judge will rule them to give you the full price of Windows Vista as per the ad you brought.

So, make sure you don't accept the EULA, make sure you document everything you do (like taking photos of your monitor with every step of rejecting the EULA), and do not be afraid to go to court. Justice is on your side here.

If Dell have accepted the EULA before they even sell you the laptop, you can potentially sue them for infringing on your rights and supporting a monopoly.

The most important thing to remember is that the law is on your side and they know it. Do not be afraid to bring them to court. Courts are not that scary at all if you are confident and have supporting evidence.

Thanks for that great advice! I will keep all of that in mind, especially the part about an advertisement price for Windows Vista Home Basic - Does that mean if they offer me say £20 refund for the license, I can turn around and say "Well it's advertised here for £60 - so, I want my £60 please" Also, do I get a refund of OEM or Retail? I think it's OEM, correct?


Courts are not that scary at all if you are confident and have supporting evidence.
They probably are when you're 16 ... like me!

dtruesdale
February 11th, 2007, 08:20 PM
I bought a E1705 before Christmas and told the sales rep I did not want windows of any sort. The reply I got was well it comes with it anyways. I said I wanted it removed and the reply was we can not due to our bundling License. I have yet to see this license. I figured I could save about $90.00. When I recieved the laptop I did not boot it till I was ready to ghot my Kubuntu HD to the Sata drive in the laptop. I never booted the OS nor did I accept the Eula. The OS is sitting in the Laptop box unopened. It was forced on me to by the hardware. I figured it out they hope I will get frustrated with linux and reload the other OS. Sorry I am quite content with Linux. Good luck but the money isn't worth it. You won't find a better deal for the same hardware even when you pay for the opossing OS.

Mathiasdm
February 11th, 2007, 08:40 PM
whats the point of taking them to court? You will probably lose anyway. They are a business.. they can sell what they want... if they wont sell you laptop without vista license go buy it from another shop that will... simple as that.

They can't sell what they want.

If you're not allowed to buy a computer without Vista, it's bundling, which is illegal.

macogw
February 11th, 2007, 09:35 PM
Dell is actually very good at giving refunds for Windows or saying "no Windows? no problem. FreeDOS disk to check the hardware? ok"

And the refund will be for the amount *they* pay, not that you would pay. It'll be about $50 (maybe $100).

I keep meaning to try to return XP to Gateway...

AlexC_
February 11th, 2007, 09:38 PM
And the refund will be for the amount *they* pay, not that you would pay. It'll be about $50 (maybe $100).

But as stated before, Dell can not announce the price they pay for the Vista Home Basic license from Microsoft as they are not allowed to. Which means they have to give me a full OEM refund, and not a refund for how much they pay as that would be announcing the price they pay, no?

macogw
February 11th, 2007, 09:39 PM
So, make sure you don't accept the EULA, make sure you document everything you do (like taking photos of your monitor with every step of rejecting the EULA), and do not be afraid to go to court. Justice is on your side here.
What if you don't even let it get to the EULA screen? I didn't boot into Windows. I hit the F2 button and went to the boot menu and chose "cd drive." I saw Windows run on here for 4 days -- it was the Vista RC, it was free, don't think there was an EULA since it was a beta.

The "documentation" I have is "there's no Windows on the drive, not even the recovery partition, the restore discs are still sealed, and look up my license number, it was never activated." You just have to give back the COA sticker on the bottom and your restore discs.

jeffc313
February 11th, 2007, 09:59 PM
Thanks for that great advice! I will keep all of that in mind, especially the part about an advertisement price for Windows Vista Home Basic - Does that mean if they offer me say £20 refund for the license, I can turn around and say "Well it's advertised here for £60 - so, I want my £60 please" Also, do I get a refund of OEM or Retail? I think it's OEM, correct?


They probably are when you're 16 ... like me!
yeah... I am 15 and nearly had a heart attack when I recieved a cease and desist letter

glotz
February 11th, 2007, 10:10 PM
Every last person buying a new computer should fight the microsoft tax! Kudos to you for doing it. Whenever I'll be replacing my hardware, I certainly will do that too. Good luck and thanks on behalf of everybody on the planet. :)

ZylGadis
February 12th, 2007, 12:27 AM
But as stated before, Dell can not announce the price they pay for the Vista Home Basic license from Microsoft as they are not allowed to. Which means they have to give me a full OEM refund, and not a refund for how much they pay as that would be announcing the price they pay, no?

Dell will most probably offer you some money before going to court. That may or may not be the actual amount they pay Microsoft - nobody outside of Dell or Microsoft knows. If you prefer not to go to court, you may take that money and that's it. If you bring them to court, though, you should be able to get whatever amount of money your Vista ad says it costs.

Make sure you reject the EULA and take photos when you do it. You have to have read the EULA and especially the line which says you're entitled to a refund. Also make sure you take photos of the entire EULA text on your screen - readable on the photos, so that you have proof of that line (theoretically that's the only EULA you've ever seen and the only one that pertains to you, so you must have proof the refund line actually exists).

If they say "well, it's all one package," you should promptly say "bundling is illegal, so it cannot be one package, besides, why is there a license for a part of the package (Windows) that states I can remove it and get a refund? It's obviously not one package."

Once again, there is nothing they can do to prevent you from actually getting a full Windows Vista price from them - if you play your cards well and are not afraid of them.

pyros
February 12th, 2007, 01:32 AM
OK, now for my two cents.

I do not know how much of this applies to the UK, but, as for the USA, lets just say that a little bird told me:
maybe dell pays five dollars for a copy of windows.
maybe dell charges you the suggested OEM price.
maybe dell will pay you up to 100 dollars to "save the sale"
These are things that aren't publicly acknowledged by dell, so I can't say that they are true. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.

I can say that Dell does sell computers with Linux installed from the factory, specifically Precision workstations with "Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS v4"

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/precn_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

As well as the "n" series computers which come with FreeDos

Dimension:

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/dimen_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

Optiplex:

http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/optix_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

However, to the best of my knowledge, no portable computers are available with the two aforementioned open source operating systems.

AlexC_
February 12th, 2007, 04:21 PM
Interesting, I just went through the stages of buying the laptop on the Dell website (configuring the laptop components/software etc) just to check how much it would come to, and I saw this in the software section:


Microsoft Works 8.5 [Included in price]

I can't find the EULA for Microsoft Works 8.5, if anyone has it could you have a look and see if I can get a refund on Microsoft Works 8.5 aswell? I sure hope so, that will drive the cost down even more!

glotz
February 12th, 2007, 05:45 PM
Here's something but I can't access the next link it points to http://oem.microsoft.com/downloads/mosb_productguide/application/Works85.htm

It'd require some sign in crap.

shareMenaPeace
February 12th, 2007, 07:09 PM
DELL and Operating Systems


Dell and Linux support
(It is hard to find this page from just browsing to dell.com - they even lack the most needed site feature "search") - but at least they officaly support linux.
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/alliances/en/linux?c=us&cs=555&l=en&s=biz

Dell and Vista Support
Well the VISTA support is really integrated into the DELL customer support area.
(And just easy to access from the frontpage of dell.com by clicking on support).
http://support.dell.com/support/index.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen&~ck=cr

A sidenote - i think DELL will not take VISTA back, as DELL has a special Microsoft Deal whih gives them each VISTA - maybe even for free. I dont know. So they will not give you money back as they might not even paid for it.

But if more people order DELL systems with linux pre installed, and more people talk and ask about linux its likely we see soon the real linux support under VISTA support on dell support pages.


Cheers

Sunflower1970
February 12th, 2007, 07:35 PM
I'm a member of the Dell community, and I've been following the Vista forum for a time now...Been amused by it too, with allllll the problems people have been having trying to even GET their upgrade discs.

They also have a nice, quiet Linux forum...Not many people with problems there (lol)

m.musashi
February 12th, 2007, 07:50 PM
whats the point of taking them to court? You will probably lose anyway. They are a business.. they can sell what they want... if they wont sell you laptop without vista license go buy it from another shop that will... simple as that.
I'd suggest this approach too. Rather than support a company that puts MS ahead of customer support you simply need to shop with your feet. I called Dell to order a desktop about a year ago and said I didn't want windows. They said they couldn't sell me one without windows so I said then I'll buy from someone else - and I did. I bought a custom built machine from a local shop. It had everything I wanted and nothing I didn't. They also don't install all the crap that Dell does that just slows down the system.


If you do find a laptop without an OS installed, it's usually more expensive. If you can find a laptop that I can get, without an OS for £300 then please, tell me where I can get it.

A $600 laptop, huh? Before you buy from Dell, I would at least look around your town and see if anyone sells custom built computers. The shop here has a laptop for $800 and if I didn't buy windows it would be $700 or less. That's exactly what I did for the desktop I bought. Good luck. You might also check IBM and HP. I think they are a little more open to Linux than Dell but I'm not sure what they have or how much.

naren.bharatwaj
February 12th, 2007, 08:05 PM
Hey

there is a provision for that. microsoft themselves provide that. u need not pay for the OS if u r not getting it preloaded. I recently read somewhere that a person in UK got his money refunded even after purchasing his comp with the OS loaded onto it. it should certainly work out for u.

Naren