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TheVeech
February 8th, 2007, 05:02 PM
I've followed countless helpful threads about what software people rate highly. But, in the interests of balance, and to serve as a warning, it'd be interesting to find out what people thought were the real turkeys of the open source world.

Without hesitation, my vote goes to the remarkable gFTP. This FTP client was recommended to me, and it looked okay back in the days when I transferred the occasional file. But put it under any stress and it goes haywire. In fact this software is so unreliable that I find myself not reacting with the usual impatience, but just laughing. Yep, it's so bad that it's funny.

So gFTP is beyond getting mad about. Well, except in one respect. FTP is important. People migrating to linux or testing it out will almost certainly come across this software and gFTP, because of its prominence, has the potential to single-handedly open those of us who praise Linux's stability to undue criticism.

gFTP is a laughable mess and the sooner it's improved drastically or relegated to the sidelines of open source software lists, the better. So my vote for the OSS Turkey Award goes to the magnificently hopeless gFTP!

23meg
February 8th, 2007, 05:13 PM
FTP is important.
Nautilus and Konqueror both allow you to operate on FTP servers in the same way you operate on local folders, and both come as defaults.

TheVeech
February 8th, 2007, 05:26 PM
Thanks, but I know what the options are.

gFTP is the most prominent gnome-based, dedicated FTP client. Such a client should be a lot better. But the point of the thread isn't to argue about or point to workable alternatives, it's to suggest bad software that's best avoided, supplementing the threads about good software that people should try out (like you're doing here).

saulgoode
February 8th, 2007, 05:33 PM
Perhaps you should include some details in your complaint, rather than just "it's so bad". I haven't ever noticed anything problematic with it.

Brunellus
February 8th, 2007, 06:11 PM
I'm keeping my eye on this thread.

There are some gut-churningly bad programs out there, but gFTP never struck me as particularly terrible. Maybe my FTP needs aren't as complex as the OP's?

In any event, let a thousand roses bloom and a hundred bad packages be named and shamed--but let's keep the flamebait to tolerable levels.

TheVeech
February 8th, 2007, 06:16 PM
It's hardly a complaint, it's a vote. Nor is it an essay, hence the brevity.

If you want specifics about it, look it up on the forums. Many people have pointed to its inadequacy. For my part, I've found that whenever it's put under any significant stress it stalls, crashes, or just silently fades away. Nautilus doesn't do that under the same conditions, and yet not only is gFTP supposed to be dedicated to the task but it's also still a prominent piece of software. There's a phrase, "not fit for purpose" that's apt. So, gFTP gets my vote. IMHO, it's a turkey.

prizrak
February 8th, 2007, 07:18 PM
gFTP is pretty horrible I must agree. The interface is pretty awkward it does tend to get pretty unstable pretty quickly and lacks quite a few features. FileZilla is the best FOSS FTP client I have seen but the Linux port is pretty slow in comming.

Another turkey I would say is Metacity, Gnome's default WM. Whoever came up wtih those rectangles on maximize/open needs to meet me on a hilltop and only one of us will walk away.

TheVeech
February 8th, 2007, 07:26 PM
It's interesting that so soon in this thread, the main point gets lost and there's defensive talk about what Ubuntu can do and concerns about 'flamebait'. That such suggestions are made says something about the influence of a minority of linux users who go OTT in threads, and no-one should be compelled to tread on eggshells or be on alert for potential flame wars just because there's a few people who might overreact to something or other. That's their problem, not that of the subject matter or the majority of users.

Put simply, there's little difference in being critical about 'good' software to criticising 'bad' software, and yet threads about 'good' software thrive (rightly) without being subjected to overt moderation or claims of vacuous evangelicism (the polar opposite of 'flamebait'). Is there bad software? Sure. You want to vote for what you see as 'bad' software? Why not? This ain't Redmond!

'Good' and 'bad' software are both sides of the same coin and identifying both is productive and gives people information about their options, so long as the minority of 'OTT folk' don't rule the roost and stifle discussion: it's part of the same process of sorting out the wheat from the chaff.

The approach to this thread in the absense of similar approaches to supplementary threads asks more questions than it answers.

TheVeech
February 8th, 2007, 07:44 PM
FileZilla is the best FOSS FTP client I have seen but the Linux port is pretty slow in comming.

A lot of people seem to agree about FileZilla. Something to keep an eye on, for sure.

Brunellus
February 8th, 2007, 07:49 PM
my flamebait concerns arise out of a fair bit of experience on these forums.

Most "$package is t3h suxx0rz!" threads are either:

1) Complaints that $package is not IDENTICAL to its Windows analogue

or

2) Long on vituperation and short on actual content.

Hauling this thread back on-topic, I'm going to have to agree with prizak's complaints about Metacity as GNOME's default window manager: slow, inefficient, and ugly. For a while, I replaced it with Openbox.

sloggerkhan
February 8th, 2007, 07:58 PM
I think most people don't really know what's bad because if they don't like it, they get rid of it and forget about it.

I do agree that metacity has some anoyances. For example, it doesn't seem to refresh windows properly while one is moving. By waving a window around, i can make it like like my desktop is empty.

saulgoode
February 8th, 2007, 08:05 PM
Since there is no need to substantiate claims, I will say that any package which is based on Python is "bad".

bruce89
February 8th, 2007, 08:15 PM
Since there is no need to substantiate claims, I will say that any package which is based on Python is "bad".

Oh dear:

bruce@Scooby-Doo:~$ sudo apt-cache rdepends python2.4
python2.4
Reverse Depends:
glade-3
python-wxtools
python-wxgtk2.6
python-uno
python2.4-samba
postgresql-plpython-8.1
koffice-libs
kivio
python-profiler
zope2.9
zope-zshell
zope-plonecollectorng
zapping
xcircuit
xchat
wesnoth-editor
wesnoth
weechat-plugins
wammu
vim-python
vim-gtk
vim-full
viewmol
vegastrike
tellico-data
superkaramba
streamtuner
stgit
smart-notifier
serpento
scribus-ng
scigraphica
rekall
regina-normal
qtorrent
qterm
python2.4-testresources
python2.4-speex
python2.4-sip-qt3
python2.4-semanage
python2.4-scgi
python2.4-pypoker-eval
python2.4-opencv
python-zeroc-ice
python-xpcom
python-wxtools
python-wxgtk2.6
python-wxgtk2.4
python-sqlobject
python-scientific
python-pymetar
python-plplot
python-pastescript
python-opensync
python-nautilus
python-libhamlib2
python-iplib
pysol
pyqonsole
pympd
pycaml
pyblosxom
postgresql-plpython-7.4
policycoreutils
papaya
mpichpython
meta-ul-base
listen
linkchecker
libzorp2
libhk-kdeclasses8
libglom0
lcd4linux
lampython
knoda
karrigell
k3d
jack
idle-python2.4
harvestman
gnubg
gnome-osd
gnome-mud
gnat-gps
glom
ghextris
ggz-grubby
gapti
gaby
fonttools
entity-python
ekg
duplicity
democracyplayer
cyphesis-cpp-clients
cyphesis-cpp
crystalspace
config-manager
commit-tool
cfv
capisuite
capisuite
boson-base
blender
bacula-sd
bacula-fd
bacula-director-sqlite3
bacula-director-sqlite
bacula-director-pgsql
bacula-director-mysql
autodebtest
adonthell
zope3
zope-common
xchat-gnome
vim-gnome
update-manager
scribus
schooltool
schoolbell
rhythmbox
reportbug
python2.4-schooltool
python2.4-samba
python2.4-paramiko
python2.4-moinmoin
python2.4-minimal
python2.4-librdf
python2.4-id3lib
python2.4-gd
python2.4-examples
python2.4-doc
python2.4-dictdlib
python2.4-dictclient
python2.4-dev
python2.4-dbg
python-uno
python-twisted-lore
python-gnome2
python-all
python
pykdeextensions
postgresql-plpython-8.1
planner
pessulus
mklibs
libpythonize0
libboost-python1.33.1
libboost-dbg
libapache2-mod-python2.4
koffice-libs
kivio
kig
kde-guidance
kde-guidance
java-gcj-compat-dev
hal-device-manager
gnumeric-plugins-extra
gedit
gcompris
epiphany-browser
dia-libs
bzrtools
bzr
autopkgtest
alacarte

jclmusic
February 8th, 2007, 08:24 PM
konqueror: bloated for a file manager IMO, and takes ages to load.
the default gnome and kde games: what a waste of space, i wish u could opt out of installing these with the DE.

antenna
February 8th, 2007, 08:24 PM
I can't think of anything original so i'll throw in yet another vote for Metacity,

Brunellus
February 8th, 2007, 08:25 PM
konqueror: bloated for a file manager IMO, and takes ages to load.
the default gnome and kde games: what a waste of space, i wish u could opt out of installing these with the DE.
Konqueror, in fairness, however, is an excellent web browser. Standards compliant to a fault, and more stable than Firefox 2. and I'm a GNOME user.

'course, for my browsing needs these days I use Kazehakase, so...

bruce89
February 8th, 2007, 08:29 PM
Konqueror, in fairness, however, is an excellent web browser. Standards compliant to a fault, and more stable than Firefox 2. and I'm a GNOME user.

If only there was a Webcore component for GTK+, as Epiphany with a webcore backend would be perfect


the default gnome and kde games: what a waste of space, i wish u could opt out of installing these with the DE.

You can remove gnome-games and gnome-games-data from Edgy without ubuntu-desktop being removed. (they are recommended, not depended)

jclmusic
February 8th, 2007, 08:32 PM
Konqueror, in fairness, however, is an excellent web browser. Standards compliant to a fault, and more stable than Firefox 2. and I'm a GNOME user.

'course, for my browsing needs these days I use Kazehakase, so...

yep i second that, it's a good browser, but why does the file manager have to be the same as the web browser. that's what caused so many problems in windows lol. konqueror is not suited to being a file manager.

Brunellus
February 8th, 2007, 08:33 PM
BEGIN HIJACK:

someone is working on a GTK+ Webcore-based browser, but it seems to be in pre-alpha atm:

http://www.akcaagac.com/index_atlantis.html

He calls it "Atlantis." Officially, it's in "devloper preview." I haven't been able to build it yet, probably because I'm too lazy to do so. But it's quite an interesting project, and I hope it takes off.

END HIJACK.

jclmusic
February 8th, 2007, 08:36 PM
lol you naughty moderator, you.

bruce89
February 8th, 2007, 08:40 PM
someone is working on a GTK+ Webcore-based browser, but it seems to be in pre-alpha atm:...

I don't really care for any other browser really, but Gtk+ WebCore is interesting, but it is deid.

KoRnholio
February 8th, 2007, 08:40 PM
There are some gut-churningly bad programs out there, but gFTP never struck me as particularly terrible. Maybe my FTP needs aren't as complex as the OP's?

What attracted me to gFTP was its interface's similarity to WS_FTP LE, which was my favorite FTP client for Windows. The main problem I've had is that it can't handle large transfers (in terms of # of files). So for any but the smallest sites, you can't even make a backup with it! In any FTP client worth using, you should be able to initiate a transfer of every folder in your remote server, leave it overnight, and come back to a backup. gFTP's cache can only hold a certain # of filenames, so it'll crash (segfault) before even transferring any files. That is a prime example of what people mean when they say it can't handle any sort of load. Bugs like that you expect from an up and coming project, but gFTP is supposed to be mature.

muguwmp67
February 8th, 2007, 08:45 PM
the default gnome and kde games: what a waste of space,

I agree, they should give me something better to do while installing from the live cd than playing solitaire or samegnome.

Brunellus
February 8th, 2007, 08:52 PM
What attracted me to gFTP was its interface's similarity to WS_FTP LE, which was my favorite FTP client for Windows. The main problem I've had is that it can't handle large transfers (in terms of # of files). So for any but the smallest sites, you can't even make a backup with it! In any FTP client worth using, you should be able to initiate a transfer of every folder in your remote server, leave it overnight, and come back to a backup. gFTP's cache can only hold a certain # of filenames, so it'll crash (segfault) before even transferring any files. That is a prime example of what people mean when they say it can't handle any sort of load. Bugs like that you expect from an up and coming project, but gFTP is supposed to be mature.
interesting. surely there's a way of doing this from the command-line via rsync?

picpak
February 8th, 2007, 10:22 PM
gFTP seems to barely follow any of the GNOME HIG. And little things like keyboard shortcuts for editing files would be nice.

bruce89
February 8th, 2007, 10:26 PM
gFTP seems to barely follow any of the GNOME HIG. And little things like keyboard shortcuts for editing files would be nice.

Well, it is pretty ancient. Latest Stable Version: 2.0.18 (2/4/2005) (http://gftp.seul.org/)

teet
February 8th, 2007, 10:56 PM
I agree about the gftp thing. I've had trouble with it in the past...and I'm not even trying to do anything hard. Just upload a single file!

I tried to upload a file, it looked like it uploaded it, the date/time stamp on the apache server changed, but the file remained as the old one. Weird. On other occasions I have found that it does dumb stuff with the permissions of files. I have to manually select the file and change the permissions so anybody can download the file.

These things are probably all due to user error, but it shouldn't be that friggin difficult to upload 1 file. I never have problems with winscp3 on windows.

-teet

sloggerkhan
February 9th, 2007, 04:12 AM
Agree that I never use default games. I think supertux and battle for wesnoth would make better defaults. Obviously not gnome, tho.

jclmusic
February 9th, 2007, 10:00 AM
Agree that I never use default games. I think supertux and battle for wesnoth would make better defaults. Obviously not gnome, tho.

so would frozen-bubble, if they HAVE to bundle games with every DE, i don't think they should.

gradedcheese
February 9th, 2007, 10:06 AM
I suppose that gFTP isn't so popular, it's no longer included by default in Ubuntu and several other distributions :) I agree that it's not that nice to use, I've also had it trash directories before (by setting all file permissions to very strange values). However I haven't really used it that much, mostly because just running 'sftp' from the shell seems easier and more intuitive than some GUI thing. Browsing FTP servers in Nautilus seems like a more natural GUI interface than a dedicated program.

3rdalbum
February 9th, 2007, 02:04 PM
I nominate Blam (an RSS reader for Gnome) for this award. It has so few features, I think I'd rather use Firefox 1.5's built-in RSS management.

Liferea isn't much better, either - it continually downloads articles I've already read.

I actually use Akregator in Gnome.

TheVeech
February 9th, 2007, 03:22 PM
my flamebait concerns arise out of a fair bit of experience on these forums.

Most "$package is t3h suxx0rz!" threads are either:

1) Complaints that $package is not IDENTICAL to its Windows analogue

or

2) Long on vituperation and short on actual content.

Agreed...in part. I've got a fair bit of experience of these forums, too, but to me this is more to do with how some people react and the effect that that can have, than with posturing about who has however much experience of a forum. In other words, the behaviour of some people can unfairly place limits on what others feel comfortable saying, based on some notion that it's acceptable to criticise so long as that criticism is of a certain 'acceptable' nature. To me it boils down to a misunderstanding of the benefits of criticism.

'Most threads are either/or' should be as relevant to 'good software' threads as 'bad' ones. Most people are relaxed enough about topics (and life in general) to not get hot and bothered at the suggestion of a 'provocative' subject that isn't anything of the sort. Ultimately, though, because there's some people who never seemed to learn or appreciate that it's okay to debate without getting personal and that it's good to be able to disagree without having some sense of wounded pride that has some urgent need to be addressed, everyone has to be on their guard in case threads degenerate.

Believe it or not, we're all here for a reason, and that reason is better software, whatever approach we take. There's always going to be people who migrate who want software to be like what they're accustomed to. True, it can be a bore, but in my experience it's better to accurately and consistently make the case that our software and platform are of a higher standard. For most of these people, making the switch over is a huge step, and their biggest 'crime' is that they just aren't aware of the arguments that we're familiar with. As soon as they are, they get 'it' just like we once did, and stop whining about their old OS. Highlighting 'bad' software to these people, is just another way of helping them and of giving 'good' software a helping hand.


Hauling this thread back on-topic, I'm going to have to agree with prizak's complaints about Metacity as GNOME's default window manager: slow, inefficient, and ugly. For a while, I replaced it with Openbox.

...and then what?

I can't comment on Metacity - I've already voted - but, because I've always found the threads on people's favorite software helpful, I'd also like to vote for some sort of forum dedicated specifically to people's reviews of all sorts of software.

TheVeech
February 9th, 2007, 03:59 PM
I nominate Blam (an RSS reader for Gnome) for this award. It has so few features, I think I'd rather use Firefox 1.5's built-in RSS management.
Liferea isn't much better, either - it continually downloads articles I've already read.
I actually use Akregator in Gnome.

I've never had that problem with Liferea myself, but I did ditch FF as my main web browser in favour of Epiphany. It's got less features than you can get with FF (including extensions), and FF is an excellent piece of kit, but Epiphany does it for me: it's fast, simple and does the job.

Sage (FF RSS extension) is worth a look. Some like it, some don't.

jamyskis
February 14th, 2007, 04:12 PM
As far as games are concerned - you try playing anything more complex than Solitaire or Nibbles from the Live CD. And yes, the games are a waste of time, but so are the games bundled with Windows (with the possible exception of Pinball in XP), yet people play them all the time. Solitaire is a good non-techie's way of wasting five minute between jobs. If you don't like them:



sudo apt-get remove gnome-games gnome-games-data


As far as GFTP is concerned - I've never had a problem. I make regular backups of my website using it, and I download from a number of FTP sites using it. All other FTP stuff as far as uploading the odd updated file on my website is handled by Bluefish.

My nomination for the OSS turkey is the Democracy Player. It's a noble effort, and a brilliant idea, but they seem to be making it out to be more stable than it actually is - which it isn't at all.

justin whitaker
February 14th, 2007, 04:23 PM
I nominate Blam (an RSS reader for Gnome) for this award. It has so few features, I think I'd rather use Firefox 1.5's built-in RSS management.

Liferea isn't much better, either - it continually downloads articles I've already read.

I actually use Akregator in Gnome.

All three of those are the reason why I said: oh, no way, and use Google Reader instead.

Like you have mentioned, Liferea seems to just download everything, including the things that you have already read...blam is not as fully featured as something like Sage, and certainly not as powerful as Reader....

My vote for OSS turkey, however, does not go to any of these: it goes to EVOLUTION. Not very flexible, overly complicated for what should be fairly simple, and it still has issues with integrating with Hotmail. I often wonder why it is still the default mail application if something like Thunderbird does a better job, is more intuitive, and is less resource intense.

Random survey of 1 folks.

justin whitaker
February 14th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Solitaire is a good non-techie's way of wasting five minute between jobs.

I very much doubt I can do a quick round of Battle for Wesnoth between jobs. Maybe Nexuiz. Definitely not Wesnoth. :)

Nikron
February 14th, 2007, 04:48 PM
Thunderbird gets my vote... loads up so slow considering its features.

prizrak
February 14th, 2007, 05:46 PM
All three of those are the reason why I said: oh, no way, and use Google Reader instead.

Like you have mentioned, Liferea seems to just download everything, including the things that you have already read...blam is not as fully featured as something like Sage, and certainly not as powerful as Reader....

My vote for OSS turkey, however, does not go to any of these: it goes to EVOLUTION. Not very flexible, overly complicated for what should be fairly simple, and it still has issues with integrating with Hotmail. I often wonder why it is still the default mail application if something like Thunderbird does a better job, is more intuitive, and is less resource intense.

Random survey of 1 folks.

I forgot about Evolution, yes I agree wholeheartedly it sux. The first thing I do is remove all the shortcuts to it and get rid of it as the default. Sadly it can't just be removed :(

Nikron
February 14th, 2007, 06:21 PM
I have to agree about evolution...

fuscia
February 14th, 2007, 06:21 PM
wmakerconf is not something i've ever had much luck with. it's unclear, which would be a problem, except that it doesn't seem to work, thus saving me from an errant guess.

Arisna
February 14th, 2007, 07:59 PM
I would have to nominate Beagle for this. I haven't used it for a few months, but my experience went something like this:

1.) Install package, start daemon
2.) Use successfully for approximately one week
3.) Find that the database magically broke
4.) Delete ~/.beagle
5.) Wash, rinse, repeat

Also, I'll third the nomination of Evolution.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that based on my experiences with GroupWise and Netware, the underlying problem here is Novell. :)

mips
February 14th, 2007, 09:28 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that based on my experiences with GroupWise and Netware, the underlying problem here is Novell. :)

Nah, I've experienced a big corporate migration from Groupwise & Netware to MS and the experience was not that pleasant. To this day I would say MS is less stable than Netware+Groupwise. MS was always a good excuse not to work though due to outages :)

pmj
February 14th, 2007, 11:18 PM
Yes, gFTP is pretty awful. Unstable, messy UI, lacking in features. It's all around bad, and anyone who says different has never used, or never had any need, for a proper FTP client. IglooFTP is an alternative you might want to check out. It's not open source, though.

Other than that there isn't much else I can think of. Well, mplayer has about the single worst GUI in the history of GUIs, but at least it plays movies well. I also hate xmms and all clones with a passion, but again, at least they do what they're supposed to do.

jamyskis
February 16th, 2007, 12:19 PM
It's all around bad, and anyone who says different has never used, or never had any need, for a proper FTP client.

Define a "proper" FTP client. I've been using gFTP for a year and a half both professionally and privately and I never had any problems. I find that gFTP does pretty much everything I need of it (transfer between client and server, chmod). In fact, briefly looking at Igloo, I see little appeal above gFTP - with the exception of server certificates and FXP transfers, which I would use extremely rarely, if ever.

pmj
February 16th, 2007, 01:05 PM
Define a "proper" FTP client. I've been using gFTP for a year and a half both professionally and privately and I never had any problems. I find that gFTP does pretty much everything I need of it (transfer between client and server, chmod). In fact, briefly looking at Igloo, I see little appeal above gFTP - with the exception of server certificates and FXP transfers, which I would use extremely rarely, if ever.

I haven't used gFTP for over a year, so I can't tell you exactly how gFTP has glitched, lost my queue, acted up and crashed for me. But trust me, it has.

You may have used it professionally, but your needs still appear to be very simple. As others have said in this thread, gFTP's queue system is very lacking. The whole program is buggy and unstable as soon as you start messing around with thousands of files. FXP is a must for many users and gFTP doesn't have it. It's also missing skip and priority lists, custom site commands (without the need to type them in manually each time) and pretty much every other advanced feature other clients such as FlashFXP has.

And then there's the GUI, which is messy and works in very strange ways. Something is wrong with the design if a user has to use trial-and-error with the two mouse buttons in order to operate the bookmarks editor, but that's what gFTP forces you to do.

DoctorMO
February 16th, 2007, 01:28 PM
Xorg - Major problems with it's own identity as either a driver manager for video cards or a graphical system, compromises configuration by not structuring it's self and doesn't use hal, dbus or kernel information.
Dia - It really is dia.
Kontacts - The whole idea of one thing and one thing well was forgotten in order to copy palm software, instead of making 1 calendar program, 1 address book program we now have 15 all in one programs which are bloated and don't do any of those things very well.
find - completely unintuitive UI