Newbie Support

[wersdaluv]

As a Linux Newbie, I really know how it feels to have a hard time doing simple things because of lack of knowledge. Yes, many guides are available online, but not all of them are comprehensive enough for the Linux Newbie. The Linux Community is doing a very very very good job but it can do better by having a better "Newbie Support."

There have been good guides online. Among those are "Ubuntu Screencasts (http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/)," "How to install ANYTHING in Ubuntu (http://cutlersoftware.com/ubuntuinstall/)," etc.

We need more of these things. Why did I say that? It is because even if there are good documentations and all, newbies still ask simple things in the forums. Also, I was dreaming of convincing people to use Linux but those people are not willing to get out of their conmfort zone. If there was a documentation which shows people how good Linux is and how easy it is to use, that would make a BIG DIFFERENCE.

What do I suggest? I suggest a good Ubuntu tutorial right on the Ubuntu Official website which can be accessed by every Linux Newbie who just downloaded Ubuntu and is hoping that things will go right.

I hope that, one day, because of very good tutorials, Newbies will not have to ask very simple questions because of the abundance and accessibility of excellent tutorials.

Ubuntu may be a very good OS, but if its user doesn't know how to use it, there's a big problem. I guess, the Linux Community should spend more time teaching people how to use thier softwares because developing them would be useless if people cannot use them.

More power to Linux! :)

Edit: You may or you may not care if Newbies ask simple questions, but if there was a greater abundance of and a better access to excellent documentations and tutorials, less Newbies will ask simple questions.

Ubuntu is Linux for Human beings. We need documentations for everybody (including those who have a hard time trying to comprehend).

Ubuntu is Humanity towards others. We need more Ubuntu users to contribute to the documentations and tutorials. Mr. Shuttleworth and Canonical did their part. Let's do ours.

[Mijikai]

I agree, though I don't know if this is feasible or if anyone would want to spend so much time on elementary aspects.

[wersdaluv]

I agree, though I don't know if this is feasible or if anyone would want to spend so much time on elementary aspects.

I think Mr. Shuttleworth won't mind funding a "Newbie Support Project" if that is necessary in fixing the Bug #1 (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1).

[TheWizzard]

the official ubuntu book is a good starting point.

also aysiu's website contains well-written how-to's
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/index

[Brunellus]

I think Mr. Shuttleworth won't mind funding a "Newbie Support Project" if that is necessary in fixing the Bug #1 (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1).
sabdfl might be rich, but his funds are not unlimited. Canonical may or may not be operating at a loss, as well.

[meng]

Newbies will still ask simple things in the forums even if there are plenty of clearly advertised guides available. We accept that the same questions get asked over and over.

[v8YKxgHe]

https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html

Enjoy =) - Shows you everything you'll need to know on how to get started.

[laidback]

As mentioned above there are some good books on Ubuntu including the Official Guide. Have a look in Amazon, they've got a good stock. In my opinion this puts Ubuntu ahead of distros like Mandriva, guides for that are only available from the official site.

Don't forget that we do learn a lot from each other, which is really nice.

Happy reading.

[wersdaluv]

Maybe, what we need is more Newbie empathy. Let's try to put ourselves in the position of a person who is not tech savvy but wants to get rid of his windows desktop. He tries this OS he stumbled upon the web and after exerting effort in burning the ISO disc (he had a hard time because he is not tech savvy), he found out that he had to read all those documentations that were not very easy for him to understand. It's like having additional 3 units in college if he was in college.

You get what I mean? I think the documentations are very good but I also think they can still get so much better. Everything can get better. I just want people to realize that developing an OS which is hard for most people to use needs more attention with tutorials because I have been reading all those documentations for almost 2 months but I still cannot install all those tarballs and I still have many other problems. In this thread, I don't want to focus on those problems, I will ask on how to solve them in other threads. In this thread, I want people who are to read this to realize that there is a reason why there are whining newbies and noisy trolls. They are not there if there was no cause that pushed them to be such. If they understand the OS as good as how Linux Experts understand it, they wouldn't be doing what they are doing.

[Brunellus]

Maybe, what we need is more Newbie empathy. Let's try to put ourselves in the position of a person who is not tech savvy but wants to get rid of his windows desktop. He tries this OS he stumbled upon the web and after exerting effort in burning the ISO disc (he had a hard time because he is not tech savvy), he found out that he had to read all those documentations that were not very easy for him to understand. It's like having additional 3 units in college if he was in college.

You get what I mean? I think the documentations are very good but I also think they can still get so much better. Everything can get better. I just want people to realize that developing an OS which is hard for most people to use needs more attention with tutorials because I have been reading all those documentations for almost 2 months but I still cannot install all those tarballs and I still have many other problems. In this thread, I don't want to focus on those problems, I will ask on how to solve them in other threads. In this thread, I want people who are to read this to realize that there is a reason why there are whining newbies and noisy trolls. They are not there if there was no cause that pushed them to be such. If they understand the OS as good as how Linux Experts understand it, they wouldn't be doing what they are doing.
My usual metaphor isn't education--it's more like migration.

We can do a lot for new users, but, in the end, if they can't wrap their heads around the fact that they are no longer in Windows, that their old behaviors might not work, there's nothing to be done about it. We can help--but it's their job to adapt.

[wersdaluv]

sabdfl might be rich, but his funds are not unlimited. Canonical may or may not be operating at a loss, as well.

I believe that his resources are not unlimited. You have a very good point.

I wasn't primarily hoping people to invest more resources, I was hoping people to allocate more resources on teaching others how to use the OS. Let's say, you have a thousand bucks; you manage your money well so you put more money on education and you allocate less on development because a feature that you don't know how to use is useless.

[Brunellus]

I believe that his resources are not unlimited. You have a very good point.

I wasn't primarily hoping people to invest more resources, I was hoping people to allocate more resources on teaching others how to use the OS. Let's say, you have a thousand bucks; you manage your money well so you put more money on education and you allocate less on development because a feature that you don't know how to use is useless.
Education's a community thing. that's cheap. Development needs money--for hardware, for testing, and, in some cases, to compel or entice someone to sit there and actually deliver you a working piece of software.

There wasn't a lot of hand-wringing when IBM PCs launched and became popular. Organizations had training sessions, and that was that. The same system applies now.

"mass education" happens when you get large organizational uptake--a major corporation, a governmental entity, and so on. Atomized individual users aren't worth the effort.

[v8YKxgHe]

The guide I posted to on the other page shows you how to use Ubuntu, it tells you all about installing programs, the file system, terminal, how to install other programs to set you up.

I can't see what you're really getting at? It can't get much easier than say "Install this-package either via Terminal or Synaptic" - which then has a link back to the "Installing software" page. Everything you need is there, right in front of you.


I have been reading all those documentations for almost 2 months but I still cannot install all those tarballs
Have you ever seen any newbie, or even a power-user on Windows compile their own software? Compiling software wasn't made to be done by people new to anything, that's why .deb files exists and package management programs like apt-get and the GUI for it, Synaptic. You install pre-compiled software via them, can't get much easier than that.

[jvc26]

There are so many guides which get consistently linked to on these forums:
http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Edgy
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/index
To name but three. I have no problems with people asking the same questions again and again, but the guides are there and people keep pointing to them. Admittedly, they dont always sort out every problem/refer to every case, but they ARE there for a lot of things which are asked all the time.
Il

[wersdaluv]

Education's a community thing. that's cheap. Development needs money--for hardware, for testing, and, in some cases, to compel or entice someone to sit there and actually deliver you a working piece of software.

There wasn't a lot of hand-wringing when IBM PCs launched and became popular. Organizations had training sessions, and that was that. The same system applies now.

"mass education" happens when you get large organizational uptake--a major corporation, a governmental entity, and so on. Atomized individual users aren't worth the effort.

Life is getting faster and faster and things require less time nowadays. Whenever I use Windows, it's effortless in my opinion. That's just an opinion that's why I don't need to be challenged. Using it is very easy because as you said, it's with how people adapt and we have adapted to it.

I read somewhere that, "you have to take care of your customers because if you don't, somebody else is going to take care of them."

I was a happy Windows user because I was contented with the features but I don't believe in their "monopoly of mediocrity" as someone named it. I also see so much potential with Linux.

I am just hoping for more love here. Let's try to show Newbies more love. I believe that I know more about Linux than majority of the world's population and it is my work to empathize with them because what they feel matters. They are like my customers and Linux is like my product.

Windows has been taking care of their customers because as the facts show, they have majority of the market share. Linux should take better care of the market so that people will leave Windows. I repeat, Linux is doing a good job but I am just hear to express my opinion and my opinion is that, the lack of good documentation scares the average newbie.

[Brunellus]

Life is getting faster and faster and things require less time nowadays. Whenever I use Windows, it's effortless in my opinion. That's just an opinion that's why I don't need to be challenged. Using it is very easy because as you said, it's with how people adapt and we have adapted to it.

I read somewhere that, "you have to take care of your customers because if you don't, somebody else is going to take care of them."

I was a happy Windows user because I was contented with the features but I don't believe in their "monopoly of mediocrity" as someone named it. I also see so much potential with Linux.

I am just hoping for more love here. Let's try to show Newbies more love. I believe that I know more about Linux than majority of the world's population and it is my work to empathize with them because what they feel matters. They are like my customers and Linux is like my product.

Windows has been taking care of their customers because as the facts show, they have majority of the market share. Linux should take better care of the market so that people will leave Windows. I repeat, Linux is doing a good job but I am just hear to express my opinion and my opinion is that, the lack of good documentation scares the average newbie.
windows is effortless to you because thus far your ENTIRE computing life has been in Windows. My younger brother has operated in Windows as much as Ubuntu, and finds himself as comfortable in either.

There are no individual Free Software "customers," so it's not as if people aren't getting their money's worth.

Again, the worry of "how will we do training" is up to bigger organizations than individual users: Schools, governments, corporations.

[jvc26]

Let's try to show Newbies more love.
Have you not seen the hours people like aiysu, brunellus, meng and others - in fact too many to name here, but there are 3 I have had many contacts with/seen many times helping people on here - bodhi would be another - there is one heck of a lot of help given to newbies here, people tend to be unhelpful when the request for help just its a rant which puts anyone off.
Il

[wersdaluv]

There are so many guides which get consistently linked to on these forums:
http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Edgy
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/index
To name but three. I have no problems with people asking the same questions again and again, but the guides are there and people keep pointing to them. Admittedly, they dont always sort out every problem/refer to every case, but they ARE there for a lot of things which are asked all the time.
Il

Yes, you don't mind answering those questions over and over again and I love that. It's just that, if they ask, that means that they don't understand. If they ask in the forums, that means they didn't see answers somewhere else, right? That's why we need to put Newbies on the right track. The track where after they install Ubuntu, they read the good documentation, and they only ask in the forums the hard things because the easy things should be learned easily.

[wersdaluv]

Have you not seen the hours people like aiysu, brunellus, meng and others - in fact too many to name here, but there are 3 I have had many contacts with/seen many times helping people on here - bodhi would be another - there is one heck of a lot of help given to newbies here, people tend to be unhelpful when the request for help just its a rant which puts anyone off.
Il

Yes, the team is the champ. I just want to have a bigger team. I want more people to join the bandwagon.

[Brunellus]

Yes, you don't mind answering those questions over and over again and I love that. It's just that, if they ask, that means that they don't understand. If they ask in the forums, that means they didn't see answers somewhere else, right? That's why we need to put Newbies on the right track. The track where after they install Ubuntu, they read the good documentation, and they only ask in the forums the hard things because the easy things should be learned easily.
We're not in the business of saying "that question is too trivial to ask in the forums."

I'm all for people asking. I'll point them to docs. If they don't understand, we'll help them through it. If that's not good enough, we can go over things in IRC-- #ubuntuforums is more than just a place where I rant about music, after all.

[meng]

If they ask in the forums, that means they didn't see answers somewhere else, right?
They didn't see or they weren't looking. Most times, I suspect the latter.

[wersdaluv]

They didn't see or they weren't looking. Most times, I suspect the latter.

Okay. So if there was a greater abundance of excellent documentation and it was easier for them to access those documentations, less will ask simple questions, right?

[meng]

Perhaps if these guides were more visible, there would be fewer simple questions, but the difference would not be that much. There's still the users who are too lazy to read for themselves, and those who are too scared to follow the guide without checking with someone else.

[wersdaluv]

Perhaps if these guides were more visible, there would be fewer simple questions, but the difference would not be that much. There's still the users who are too lazy to read for themselves, and those who are too scared to follow the guide without checking with someone else.

Binggo! That's what I am talking about!

It's just that, there would be much difference. I'm telling you.

[meng]

No, I disagree. The difference would not be noticeable.

[wersdaluv]

No, I disagree. The difference would not be noticeable.

Okay. Okay. :)

It doesn't matter anyway. All we can do is guess if there would be much difference. Whether you are right or I am right, I think we need more people to contribute documentations.

[meng]

Okay. Okay. :)

It doesn't matter anyway. All we can do is guess if there would be much difference. Whether you are right or I am right, I think we need more people to contribute documentations.
You mean like the ones in wiki.ubuntu.com (http://wiki.ubuntu.com) ?
Sure, please feel free to contribute.

[Brunellus]

note: the main support wiki is now at

http://help.ubuntu.com/

[randomnumber]

The problem is then going to be that the newbs are not going to now about the documents and when you tell them about the documents they will still ask more questions.

I think the current setup is very good and would be hard to beat with documents.

For example:
I see respones to questions like type "x" into terminal
Then the response to that is what is a terminal.

If someone does not know what they do not know it is hard for them to correct it. I see no better way than the current method of forums. Each thread is customed to the users experience.

In a set of documentation the above would move through the subject as if reader is on the same page.

The forums, someone would reply with an answer telling them what a terminal is.

Establishing the audience level of knowledge is very hard to do. If you go into much detail you loose the audience in the excess and if you do not give enough detail you loose the audience in the subject. With the audience being so wide in variety of knowledge I believe that the type of thing you discribed would almost be impossible to be effective.

But by all means GOOD LUCK. You should at the very least come up with some very good how to-s.

[wersdaluv]

The problem is then going to be that the newbs are not going to now about the documents and when you tell them about the documents they will still ask more questions.

I think the current setup is very good and would be hard to beat with documents.

For example:
I see respones to questions like type "x" into terminal
Then the response to that is what is a terminal.

If someone does not know what they do not know it is hard for them to correct it. I see no better way than the current method of forums. Each thread is customed to the users experience.

In a set of documentation the above would move through the subject as if reader is on the same page.

The forums, someone would reply with an answer telling them what a terminal is.

Establishing the audience level of knowledge is very hard to do. If you go into much detail you loose the audience in the excess and if you do not give enough detail you loose the audience in the subject. With the audience being so wide in variety of knowledge I believe that the type of thing you discribed would almost be impossible to be effective.

But by all means GOOD LUCK. You should at the very least come up with some very good how to-s.

You have a point.

[Random20230808]

I believe there is an issue here we have to see.

PC users that uses Windows for years, are trying an other - new to them - OS (Linux) and in specific the Ubuntu - because of many reasons. Some because of its free software and open source filosophy, some to see how it's like, some because they' ve heard it's more stable and secure etc. etc.

All of us (cause I'm one of them) ought to have in mind that we are going to install new OS and not a Windows clone. This means research on the Internet, reading, and trying, trying, trying. I myself installed tenths of times Ubuntu to finally solve all the problems I had and come up to the point that suits me. Before that, i tried a lot of other linux-based OS's to see what they look like.

We must not wait that after one or two or three installations we are going to have the same usage we had after working years and years on Windows.

According to the documentation, I believe (from my experience) that after a few hours of careful reading in official Ubuntu site's documentation we'll find all the appropriate information to make a first initiative installation. After that, we may continue to find out Ubuntu's usability, benefits and potential problems of course. Answers to common problems are already given in official documentation. If not, we' ll find out how to find them in other resources, forums and finally how to post bugs.

All I'm trying to say here is that, in my opinion, there is no magic way to have a new OS installed immediately, by a snap of hands. There are tools on the Internet to help us, experienced people to support us but we must give some effort ourselves.

After all, how did we learn how to use everything? By spending time on it (and sometimes hard time). After a few months of using Ubuntu I personally have find out how to benefit from it, and have stopped using Windows.

Have a lot of other thinks to say, but I'll shut up for the time being. Thanx.

[23meg]

Okay. So if there was a greater abundance of excellent documentation and it was easier for them to access those documentations, less will ask simple questions, right?Not exactly, some of the reasons being:

1) The kind of people in question don't view the net as a somehow structured and searchable accumulation of information, but rather as an extension of their computers that lets them send email, chat with friends, so on; thus they'll prefer direct dialog and hand holding to searching for existing information and resort to it whenever possible, not caring one bit about the overhead and what it costs others, which brings us to..

2) They're selfish. All they care about is their problem getting solved, not their problem getting solved in a manner that causes the least possible bother to the community that delivers the software they're using, which brings us to..

3) They mostly don't come from a background of participatory society, thus aren't aware of the importance of having a commons that is open to all parties, which all parties must contribute to and take care of, and from which all parties benefit. They just care about the benefit part, and that is benefit for themselves.

4) They don't have time and patience. The fact that they've even decided to install a Linux based OS in favor of Windows or OSX is enough of a deviation from the status quo and enough of a costly quest that, at the time of asking a question, has almost depleted their attention span, willingness and available free time to dedicate to such a job. Thus they want the easiest, quickest, cure-it-all fix, not the most socially or technically viable one.

As long as the reasons behind these remain, so will the disposition of these people that we resent; not just in online communities but in other areas in life as well.

[koenn]

well put. May sound harsh (to some) - but true

[K.Mandla]

Wow. 23meg hit that one right on the head. Nicely put, even if it is tough to admit.

[meng]

Yes, more considered and eloquent a thesis than I could ever manage on this subject.

[Random20230808]

Yes. An honest, to the point, and very true explanation from 23meg, of why many users act like everything must be on their hand the same time they ask for it.

However, I believe that experienced users ought to give a try to help inexperienced ones and lead them to the knowledge of how you get help, how you give help, what Internet is, how you can use it, what a forum is, how to search for answers and in general how to participate in the word wide info-society.

Don't forget that each one of us has grown up in a different environment - country, city, family, friends, school, financial funds make someone to behave and act in a complete different way from another. It's upon us (permit me to include myself) to show new users that there other, more constructive, ways to use the tool called PC than to send an e-mail, or browse a web page only.

On any occasion, not every person walks on forward in his life. When we decide to give it a try we have a gain for ourselves. When we don't, never mind, there are more lives to come!!!:KS

[wersdaluv]

Not exactly, some of the reasons being:

1) The kind of people in question don't view the net as a somehow structured and searchable accumulation of information, but rather as an extension of their computers that lets them send email, chat with friends, so on; thus they'll prefer direct dialog and hand holding to searching for existing information and resort to it whenever possible, not caring one bit about the overhead and what it costs others, which brings us to..

2) They're selfish. All they care about is their problem getting solved, not their problem getting solved in a manner that causes the least possible bother to the community that delivers the software they're using, which brings us to..

3) They mostly don't come from a background of participatory society, thus aren't aware of the importance of having a commons that is open to all parties, which all parties must contribute to and take care of, and from which all parties benefit. They just care about the benefit part, and that is benefit for themselves.

4) They don't have time and patience. The fact that they've even decided to install a Linux based OS in favor of Windows or OSX is enough of a deviation from the status quo and enough of a costly quest that, at the time of asking a question, has almost depleted their attention span, willingness and available free time to dedicate to such a job. Thus they want the easiest, quickest, cure-it-all fix, not the most socially or technically viable one.

As long as the causes behind these remain, so will the disposition of these people that we resent; not just in online communities but in other areas in life as well.

Many are like that but I don't believe in stereotyping.

First of all, I have been posting threads to ask for comprehensive guides because I am having a hard time understanding them. For others, language is a problem; as for me, Linux literacy is the problem. I don't personally know anyone who uses Linux, I never had a background with Linux, and I have only been exposed to Linux since December 2006.

Unlike others, I am not selfish. I am here because I want to support the community of users who are here for a good cause and I have been trying to empathize with everybody.

Also, I don't have a lot of time but I have a lot of patience. People have been asking me why I should do this because they think I am just wasting time. I don't believe that Linux is a waste of time. It's here for a good cause.

What I am doing here why I am posting a thread like this is because I am being innovative. I would have survived asking every question by posting a thread but here I am, trying to know what it is that is giving us, Newbies, a hard time and how we can make things better.

It's okay if you tell me that I need to exert more time and effort. That's what I have been doing and what I am willing to do.

I am just looking for more empathy here.

[23meg]

However, I believe that experienced users ought to give a try to help inexperienced ones and lead them to the knowledge of how you get help, how you give help, what Internet is, how you can use it, what a forum is, how to search for answers and in general how to participate in the word wide info-society.I agree; that stuff should actually be taught in schools. It is done here as well ; see the "how to help yourself" thread in my signature for an excellent example.
Many are like that but I don't believe in stereotyping.I'm not stereotyping or generalizing all newcomers, if that's your point; I started by saying "the kind of people in question" for a reason. If all beginners who post to the forums were of that kind, this place would simply be unbearable and I wouldn't do anything to help them; it would be nearly impossible to anyway.
It's okay if you tell me that I need to exert more time and effort. That's what I have been doing and what I am willing to do.

I am just looking for more empathy here.You yourself do deserve empathy if that's what you're doing. The same cannot be said for all newcomers, unfortunately. This is coming from someone who does answer an average of about 20 questions a week that have been asked and answered many times before by just posting a link to the appropriate thread, which the poster could have found with a search.

The thing is, the kind of unwanted behavior we're talking about isn't specific to Linux communities, or even online communities; as I and others tried to point out, it has its roots in "real life" experiences, habits and conditions. It's not something we can cure entirely with online precautions, better and easier to understand documentation, so on.

[wersdaluv]

23meg, I salute you.

Also, I love the signature.

[AndyCooll]

I don't see your point. The documentation is already there and has been pointed out in this thread. Apart from having a document written for each individual and the nuances of their individual pc's their isn't too much more that can be done.

And I don't see where more empathy could be given other than actually going over to the "newbies" house, sitting at their computer and personally fixing their problem for them. There is a forum here entitled "absolute beginner talk", where such users can post a thread about any basic issue they want ...and they do! And in turn we do the best we can to answer their query. I know from my own experience that I have repeatedly answered the same "trivial" (to me) queries hundreds of times. There is even a "search" button they could have used and saved me the time having to answer, however they don't use it. No matter, I still answer the question ...and will keep on doing so, for I know it's a "newbie" section and I am happy to help, again ...and again ...and again. And I'll happily help answer (if I can) any query any "newbie" has. Just how much more empathy do you think I can give?

After all that, all that is missing is the willingness of the "newbie" to learn. And with the best will in the world, I can't do that for them.

:cool:

[Daveski]

Whenever I use Windows, it's effortless in my opinion. That's just an opinion that's why I don't need to be challenged. Using it is very easy because as you said, it's with how people adapt and we have adapted to it.

And as mentioned elsewhere, Windows is effortless when you are comfortable with it. Have you had much experience with Windows newbies? Microsoft have spent a lot of time and money getting their interfaces working, and Windows in general hand-holds brand new users, but Windows newbies ask the same questions over and over also.

Linux is a little different because at the moment the kind of people who install it are usually that step ahead of complete computer newbie. Give an Ubuntu machine to someone who has had no experience of computers before and they will ask very different questions than those who chose to try Ubuntu themselves.

A user with a default install of Ubuntu who only 'installs' applications by selecting them from the Add/Remove section will have a lovely stable machine, and will probably only ask questions specific to applications rather than the OS - mainly because they didn't KNOW that they might be able to connect their mobile phone and sync their to-do lists etc.

[meng]

Windows effortless? That depends on what it is you're trying to do. Try installing a newer model HP printer - the driver is not included with the OS itself, you're forced to install 400+ MB of crap just to get the printer operational. Try eliminating the popup message you get whenever you send a print job to a network printer. I didn't even realize this was possible until someone emailed me the solution (which is far from intuitive).

[Spano]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

[TheWizzard]

i think it should be noted that ubuntu is not the ultimate newbie distro. if you're a newbie, distros like pclinuxos, mint, or mephis may be a better starting point.
a nice read is Is Ubuntu for You? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=63315)

[Daveski]

Windows effortless? That depends on what it is you're trying to do. Try installing a newer model HP printer - the driver is not included with the OS itself, you're forced to install 400+ MB of crap just to get the printer operational.

I am getting more and more annoyed that hardware manufacturers are doing this sort of thing. I know most people have access to a high-speed internet connection, but can you imagine a dial-up user trying to get one of these gigantic HP 'drivers'? Intel's Wifi 'drivers' are only just slightly less than 100Mb - what the hell is that all about?

[popey]

There have been good guides online. Among those are "Ubuntu Screencasts (http://doc.ubuntu.com/screencasts/)," "How to install ANYTHING in Ubuntu (http://cutlersoftware.com/ubuntuinstall/)," etc.

Thank you.


We need more of these things.

I agree! The Ubuntu Screencast Team is looking for people to help spec up and make screencasts. Just click the Team link on the page linked above for more information. There is a how-to guide to making Screencasts and a list of screencasts we would like to see made. These can of course be edited (It *is* a wiki!) and feedback is always welcome.

[Sunflower1970]

The thing is, the kind of unwanted behavior we're talking about isn't specific to Linux communities, or even online communities; as I and others tried to point out, it has its roots in "real life" experiences, habits and conditions. It's not something we can cure entirely with online precautions, better and easier to understand documentation, so on.

This is very true. I'm a moderator on a musical fansite forum, and what you described in your 4 points is something we deal with on a weekly basis.

I personally have found the documentation for Ubuntu excellent. I've found my answers pretty easily, either by searching google, or searching here on the forums. The HOW TO's have been a godsend for a few of my items. I've read as much as I can, and haven't had to ask too many questions because everything I wanted has been here. I also bought a couple of books which have been handy references as well. (I'm not comfortable enough to answer people's questions since I'm not sure myself on some things.)

Some want the answers *now* and just don't have the patience to do a google search, or a search on a site/forum--they want a 'quick fix' instead of taking the time to learn a bit about it (whatever subject it is) and either print it out, or write it down. There can be as much documentation as you can get, but in the end, there will still be those that will not look at them and will still ask the same questions over and over.

[EmilyRose]

I am getting more and more annoyed that hardware manufacturers are doing this sort of thing. I know most people have access to a high-speed internet connection, but can you imagine a dial-up user trying to get one of these gigantic HP 'drivers'? Intel's Wifi 'drivers' are only just slightly less than 100Mb - what the hell is that all about?

I know!! I'm still on dialup and despise soo much new stuff insisting on you downloading HUGE files from the web - a driver should NOT be any more than a couple MB at MOST - hundreds is totally unacceptable. I actually had windows updates turned OFF In xp because keeping the damn thing up-to-date required being online pretty much 24/7 (especially when you add in virus, spyware and adware updates!!)!

[Brunellus]

I know!! I'm still on dialup and despise soo much new stuff insisting on you downloading HUGE files from the web - a driver should NOT be any more than a couple MB at MOST - hundreds is totally unacceptable. I actually had windows updates turned OFF In xp because keeping the damn thing up-to-date required being online pretty much 24/7 (especially when you add in virus, spyware and adware updates!!)!
please let's try to keep the thread on-topic. grumbling about third-party mfg's windows "Driver" downloads is worth starting another thread--preferrably in the appropriate Windows forum.

[23meg]

they want a 'quick fix' instead of taking the time to learn a bit about it (whatever subject it is)Actually, in almost all cases, doing a search doesn't mean they have to learn something; by doing a search, they can get to a thread where the same question was asked by a newcomer and answered in simple terms. This is why they're old questions; they've already been answered, and the answers are just waiting to be found. In other words, in almost all cases, one can get the same "quick fix" by doing a search; and even quicker. Just if they knew.

[Mateo]

Actually, in almost all cases, doing a search doesn't mean they have to learn something; by doing a search, they can get to a thread where the same question was asked by a newcomer and answered in simple terms. This is why they're old questions; they've already been answered, and the answers are just waiting to be found. In other words, in almost all cases, one can get the same "quick fix" by doing a search; and even quicker. Just if they knew.

the less you know about a topic the more difficult it is to perform a search.

[23meg]

the less you know about a topic the more difficult it is to perform a search.
Same goes for asking questions; the less you know, the less descriptive and understandable your question is. It very often takes a few replies asking for clarification before I understand what someone who doesn't know about what they're dealing with is asking.

[cowlip]

I think all the Ubuntu tutorials and XGL videos on Youtube are great :) Very simple to link curious people to.